Joe Rogan Experience #2303 - Dave Smith & Douglas Murray

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. DMDouglas Murray0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) All right, we're up. Thanks for coming. Good to see you guys. What's happening? Are you going no headphones?

   4. DSDave Smith0:18

      Oh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Keep the dew? (laughs)

   6. DMDouglas Murray0:20

      I'll do that. I'm not quite sure where they add, but yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      There we go, all right. Uh, the goal of this is every time I see people that disagree with anything that's happening, any, uh, uh, gigantic world events, it's one of these retarded shows where they're screaming... There's the word again, we brought it-

   8. DSDave Smith0:37

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:38

      ... we were just talking about that.

   10. DSDave Smith0:39

       You did it early.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Uh, the word "retarded" is back and it's one of the great culture victories. (laughs)

   12. DSDave Smith0:45

       (laughs)

   13. DMDouglas Murray0:45

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       That I think has-

   15. DSDave Smith0:46

       It is.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       ... spurred on probably by podcasts, but, um, these things are always like Piers Morgan-y, which is fine, you know, where everyone's screaming over each other and, you know, there's five different people talking over each other. There's never just rational conversations where you discuss things and, um, I respect both of you, I think both of you are brilliant. And I thought, I bet you agree on a lot of things and I bet you disagree on a lot of things, and it'd be fascinating to see your perspectives on these things, so that's why you're here together.

   17. DMDouglas Murray1:16

       Okay.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Hmm?

   19. DSDave Smith1:17

       Well... (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       (laughs) Douglas, Douglas.

   21. DMDouglas Murray1:19

       Can I ask you something?

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       Yes, sir.

   23. DMDouglas Murray1:21

       Since the war in Israel began, and since the war in Ukraine began, you've had quite a lot of people who are very against both in different ways.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:30

       Yes.

   25. DMDouglas Murray1:31

       Do you think you've had enough people on who are supportive of either war?

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       (inhales deeply) I don't know that word enough, if that's a good word. Um...

   27. DMDouglas Murray1:40

       Let's say om- let's say m- enough people who are on the side of Israel instead of wild critics of Israel.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:46

       Well, I've had a few. I mean, I believe God's Sad is- is on the side of Israel, um...

   29. DSDave Smith1:51

       For sure.

   30. DMDouglas Murray1:51

       Jordan is on the side of Israel, um...
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Uh, I, I can't…

   1. DMDouglas Murray15:00

      with posters of Lenin. They, they've spent decades trying to do down evils that were done on their side. And I would suggest that one of the things that is going on at the moment is despite, or maybe because of what you just described, there are movements now on the right in America, subcultures, including people who follow both of you, who are very interested in playing with this absolute, uh, beyond the pale thing. Why somebody like Jake Shields wants to play around with Holocaust denial. Why?

   2. DSDave Smith15:36

      Uh, I, I can't answer for Jake Shields. I, I don't know. I have no idea. Why do you think? I have no idea. I think-

   3. DMDouglas Murray15:41

      I, I'm telling what-

   4. DSDave Smith15:41

      ... a lot of people get captured by this, by audience capture.

   5. DMDouglas Murray15:45

      Captured by their audience.

   6. DSDave Smith15:46

      Yeah. I think that's, that's a thing. You get a, a lot of positive reinforcement from a bunch of twisted people.

   7. DMDouglas Murray15:52

      Yeah.

   8. DSDave Smith15:52

      Well, it's also, I mean, it's, there's something about, um, you know, Michael Malice had that great line. He goes, uh, "When you take the red pill, you're supposed to take one and not swallow the whole bottle."

   9. DMDouglas Murray16:01

      Yes. (laughs)

   10. DSDave Smith16:01

       And I think there's, like, this dynamic. What happens is, and then-

   11. DMDouglas Murray16:04

       (coughs)

   12. DSDave Smith16:04

       ... of course, people know the red pill is the analogy from The Matrix. The idea that you wake up to realizing that so much of the stuff you believed was bullshit propaganda-

   13. DMDouglas Murray16:13

       Absolutely.

   14. DSDave Smith16:13

       ... and is all lies. And thi- this is a real danger when the establishment and the institutions are all caught with their pants down, having sold a bunch of very consequential policies based on lies. And then once people realize that, they go, "Well, what else have they been lying to me about?" And then they almost wanna look into every single thing-

   15. DMDouglas Murray16:32

       Yeah.

   16. DSDave Smith16:33

       ... and go, "Yeah, I think the whole thing was lies." Now, I agree with you. There's danger in that. And I think that there are some things that then people jump to conclusions that are totally wrong. But I guess I tend to look at that and go, well then maybe the people with power, not random podcasters, but, like, the people with real power should do a better job of not lying through their fucking teeth about everything.

   17. DMDouglas Murray16:54

       Well, maybe you have power.

   18. DSDave Smith16:55

       Okay.

   19. DMDouglas Murray16:57

       Maybe you have power, both of you. We live in an era where podcasters have a lot of power. If you go on a podcast with Jake Shields and Jake Shields goes onto another podcast and says he doesn't think six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, what do you think is happening there?

   20. DSDave Smith17:12

       (clears throat)

   21. DMDouglas Murray17:12

       That's an exercise of power.

   22. DSDave Smith17:14

       Okay.

   23. DMDouglas Murray17:14

       Okay? A, a, um ... And I agree with you about the breakdown of trust. Absolutely. We have lived through an era where, in real time, we saw something called a conspiracy, the lab leak, which turns out to be true, as you and others said it might be from the beginning.

   24. DSDave Smith17:32

       I find that to be very racist.

   25. DMDouglas Murray17:34

       (laughs) And against Joe or against-

   26. DSDave Smith17:37

       How d- how dare you say this? Both of you. Both of you.

   27. DMDouglas Murray17:39

       It used to be racist.

   28. DSDave Smith17:40

       That is just, that was-

   29. DMDouglas Murray17:40

       It used to be racist when we were saying-

   30. DSDave Smith17:41

       That was crazy.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Well, no, except that…

   1. DSDave Smith30:00

      have gone worse. It was like, just a nightmare for civilization. And if people wanna look back at that and go, "Man, was there any other way this could've been handled? Was there any other way, were there blunders that were made here?" Now, personally, what I feel much more, uh, comfortable arguing would be that, I try to blame everything I can on Woodrow Wilson as much as I can, because also he created the income tax and the Federal Reserve, and did so much to damage my country. But I think American entry into World War I was really a, a disaster. And imposing the Treaty of Versailles on Germany was a disaster. I also think that's kind of, um-... fairly mainstream history. Like, that's not a particularly controversial view, that like, imposing the Treaty of Versailles on Germany ended up in disaster.

   2. DMDouglas Murray30:43

      Well, no, except that as Martin Amis said, the only way to not get to the Treaty of Versailles would be for Germany to win World War I, but yeah.

   3. DSDave Smith30:50

      Yeah, but we're not talking about the Nazis winning the war.

   4. DMDouglas Murray30:52

      Sure.

   5. DSDave Smith30:52

      We're talking about, you know, the J- the-

   6. DMDouglas Murray30:54

      The Germans.

   7. DSDave Smith30:54

      Listen, I think that-

   8. DMDouglas Murray30:55

      But, but, and second- secondly, uh, sorry, I just have to, uh, address that fundamental. You say, uh, the, the outcome of World War II and everything happening was the worst thing that's ever happened, and the worst thing imaginable, worst possible outcome, you said. You said worst possible outcome. Let me give you a much worse possible outcome: Hitler wins.

   9. DSDave Smith31:15

      Right, okay. Sure.

   10. DMDouglas Murray31:16

       So, so it's not the worst possible outcome.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:17

       That's true.

   12. DSDave Smith31:17

       I mean, listen, but, okay, Hitler, yes, okay. I'm, I'm not saying you can't dream up a worse outcome. I'm saying what you have-

   13. DMDouglas Murray31:23

       That's not dreaming up. That's just what my country at birth and others went through.

   14. DSDave Smith31:25

       Right, okay, but what did end up happening was the, what, 60 million people died, including the Holocaust, and then Joseph Stalin takes half of Europe. So, okay, fine. I'm, I should, I'll correct that. There is a worse outcome.

   15. DMDouglas Murray31:37

       Right.

   16. DSDave Smith31:37

       But that's not a great one.

   17. DMDouglas Murray31:40

       No, nobody said it was.

   18. DSDave Smith31:41

       Right.

   19. DMDouglas Murray31:41

       This is like, there's a very weird argument that you now h- hear about this, th- that the, this, this attempt to revision this, and I know why it's happening, is for the sake of it.

   20. DSDave Smith31:47

       I don't think, I don't think there's anything I'm saying that's revisionist.

   21. DMDouglas Murray31:49

       No, no, I think there is, I think there is. But this, this attempt to sort of say, "Look, you know, at the end of World War II, what have we got? Stalin has half of Europe. What was the point?" And so on. That's, that's going on. That's going on. And, uh, there are people who are feeding it. Uh, that argument is very similar, this, this, this, particular school of, as it were, history, is doing something that I've seen happen with American history as well, particularly with Lincoln. Lincoln's an interesting comparison to make with Churchill on this. Uh, there are people who will criticize Churchill for mistakes made, not hard to do. Quite hard not to make mistakes while fighting in a war of total annihilation against your country. Um, people will say, "Oh, he didn't sort this out in 1945." You know, it's rather like Lincoln. He didn't solve every problem in the world for all time, but he solved a hell of a big problem for his time. And that requires some kind of generosity of spirit and understanding in hindsight, as opposed to, "I will find something that he did that I wouldn't have done, because if I'd have been running the, uh, the British Empire in 19- 1939, I'd have known exactly how to do it, and I'd have known how to hold the whole thing together, and I'd have kept Stalin back, and he'd have been great at Yalta." And like, this is-

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:07

       But I don't think anybody's saying that.

   23. DSDave Smith33:08

       Yeah, I, I, I agree with you. I think there is a tendency-

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:10

       But I think-

   25. DSDave Smith33:10

       ... of like, woke left kids to do this. But I, I don't think that's what, what, certainly not what I'm saying, and, and I don't think what Daryl's saying. I do also think that one of the bigger, um, kind of the bigger picture dynamics to all of this, is that we have, um, at least since 9/11, been in a state of perpetual war. And s- all of these wars have been disasters. They have been so many lies involved in selling all of them. I mean, oh, uh, the whole Iraq war, the whole war in Afghanistan, just lying the whole way through. I mean, I remember literally having conversations with Green Berets in the middle of the war in Afghanistan, and they're like, "George W. Bush is telling you that the army we're building up there is really successful? This thing's gonna fall in a week without us." And then all through the Obama administration, it's just like lie, after lie, after lie with disastrous wars. And so this does create a fertile ground for people to say, "I wonder if they were lying about all these wars?"

   26. DMDouglas Murray34:08

       Sure, but it's, it-

   27. DSDave Smith34:08

       Again, I'm not really trying to argue with you about World War II.

   28. DMDouglas Murray34:10

       It is fertile ground. It's fer-

   29. DSDave Smith34:10

       I'd rather argue about these wars today.

   30. DMDouglas Murray34:12

       It's fertile ground. I think the interesting question is whether you're busy watering it.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   ... I don't, I…

   1. DMDouglas Murray45:00

   2. DSDave Smith45:00

      ... I don't, I don't know, like, if there's, um, if, if there is, uh, if, if there are experts out there who can smack all of this stuff down or just destroy every point that I, I make over the years or whatever-

   3. DMDouglas Murray45:11

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DSDave Smith45:11

      ... like, okay. So then do it and then let's see. I don't know.

   5. DMDouglas Murray45:13

      Yeah, I know, but, well, that's a bit weird because also then, then it's like the debate me bro thing. But I think what you're-

   6. DSDave Smith45:19

      But you just, you just criticized Darryl for not debating.

   7. DMDouglas Murray45:21

      No, it's fine. It's fine. Yeah. I know. Let me just make the main point. I think what I'm trying to get at, Joe, is that it's a bit like the Twitter algorithm thing, which is, yes, everyone is and should be free to say what they like on Twitter, apart from whatever the, I mean, the very fringe things of, like, immediate incitement of violence and all that kind of thing. But, uh, we all know that one of the oddities of Twitter, including since Elon took over, is that what you hope is a restored marketplace of ideas ends up pushing you really crazy shit.

   8. DSDave Smith45:54

      Yes.

   9. DMDouglas Murray45:55

      And that is what I'm suggesting is happening on a podcast level and maybe on a wider level beyond that. I get stuff on Twitter I just do not want. I do not want a guy with one and a half thousand followers who's got some zany new view on something, who isn't an expert but is an expert to be pushed at me. And effectively what is happening with the Twitter algorithm is happening everywhere else as well. And we're all for the open marketplace of ideas. I want that. I thrive in it. But it is, it is different once you get into the thing of, is something manipulating the algorithm behind? Is the algorithm being pushed on me? Why am I being given this? Why am I not being given that? Why am I being constantly pushed this view? And I think that the answer to a great degree is the same thing in your world as it is in the Twitter world, which is if you go straight online and you say, you know, "JFK file drops. Uh, watch live stream of Kennedy historians reading the papers live," you're not gonna get any views. No one's gonna watch it. That's what, kind of what's needed is for the people who know the documents to go through the documents. But you and I know that if, as there was some guy who did immediately, you do something like, uh, "Live stream Mossad involvement in JFK," you're gonna milk it. You're gonna cream it online. The money comes in. I'm saying that there's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:23

       Mm-hmm.

   11. DMDouglas Murray47:23

       ... a similar algorithm in all of our lives that we're not as aware of as we should be, which is that we, because we all know this at some level, that there are certain things that, uh, get your, a bit of your base going or get people going interesting and crazy and then they start debating it and all that sort of thing. And that algorithm of online seems to me to be spilling into the real world.

   12. DSDave Smith47:49

       I, I don't disagree that there's certainly more sensationalist stuff will get you more clicks. I, I also don't think that's a par- it's not really unique to social media or podcasting. I mean, this has been true-

   13. DMDouglas Murray47:59

       No, believe me, I write for the tabloids. I know that. (laughs) I mean, I, I-

   14. DSDave Smith48:01

       This has always been true, right? So yeah, okay, so it's kind of one of the problems of humanity.

   15. JRJoe Rogan48:06

       Yeah, I don't think anybody's arguing against that. You know, um, it's certainly never my intention when I talk to someone to try to get more views. It sounds crazy, but I'm only talking to people that I'm interested in talking to.

   16. DMDouglas Murray48:17

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan48:17

       And in Daryl's case, it's because I've been a listener of his podcast for years.

   18. DMDouglas Murray48:22

       Hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:26

       That's it. This is, like, genuinely how I perceive things.

   20. DMDouglas Murray48:31

       I beg you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:31

       That's why you're here. I'm genuinely interested in your views as well, even though you completely disagree with him.

   22. DMDouglas Murray48:39

       Good kind.

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:40

       That's, the, I mean, this is-

   24. DMDouglas Murray48:41

       Sure.

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:41

       ... the marketplace of ideas-

   26. DMDouglas Murray48:42

       Sure.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:42

       ... in real time.

   28. DMDouglas Murray48:44

       I agree, although as I say, I think you've massively underrepresented the pro-Ukraine argument and the pro-Israel argument in the last two years.

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:55

       Um, I don't know. I mean, well-

   30. DMDouglas Murray49:00

       That's my observation.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:12:21

   Hmm. That's true. …

   1. DMDouglas Murray1:00:00

      I rather frivolously said to a Georgian friend, uh, "If you want, we can swap. You can take our British membership of the EU." But, um, in the NATO thing, they were desperate for it, and they were desperate for it precisely for the reason that s- many of the Ukrainians were desperate for it, which was only way to stop Putin expansionism. So, you know, in the whole fog of the post-Soviet era, that is one of the many things that gets left out of the conversation. And by the way, Putin's actions in February 2022 and since, uh, all he's done is provoke two new countries to join NATO and his borders with NATO have grown-

   2. DSDave Smith1:00:40

      Hmm. That's true.

   3. DMDouglas Murray1:00:41

      ... because Finland and Sweden wanted to join. And the only reason Finland and Sweden wanted to join was because they too are scared. It's, it's, it's a heck of a thing to get the Swedish to join a military alliance. It doesn't come easy to them.

   4. DSDave Smith1:00:53

      (laughs)

   5. DMDouglas Murray1:00:53

      It doesn't come natural. Uh, and these, uh, these countries joined because like-... Georgia, like Ukraine, they desperately feared Putinist expansionism. And they weren't wrong.

   6. DSDave Smith1:01:05

      Okay. But I- I- I get your point. Um, th- first off, the, the war in, in Georgia in 2008 actually came, what was it? Two or three months after the Bucharest Summit where NATO announced that Georgia and Ukraine would be entering, uh, NATO. So just making that point, that, that, the NATO aspirations came first.

   7. DMDouglas Murray1:01:22

      It did.

   8. DSDave Smith1:01:22

      But listen, I don't think you're wrong. I don't think anybody is ever implying that like, we've expanded NATO through force, and that the countries who were joining, or at least the governments of the countries who were joining didn't want it. Although, in the case of Ukraine, there's a great piece in the Washington Post about this in 2006, where joining NATO was actually very unpopular. And there was a lot done, a- and largely because they just didn't wanna take on the headache of the conflict that this might provoke. But, you know, the question I think isn't necessarily like, do these countries wish to join NATO? Of course, I think most countries in the world would like to join NATO. I think m- most countries in the world would like the most powerful government in the history of the world to guarantee their defense and subsidize their defense. The question is, is that in America's interest? And i- in terms of your point of seeing through the fog, I mean, look, there was a- a- as you know well, in the 90s, in the late 90s during the first round of NATO expansion, there was a lively debate amongst this. And I don't mean a debate amongst outsiders or non-expert experts or, or whatever. I mean, within the real deal experts, the wisest gray beards in the national security apparatus, there was a real debate with at least three secretaries of defense who warned against this. Uh, R- Robert Gates, Robert McNamara.

   9. DMDouglas Murray1:02:34

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DSDave Smith1:02:34

       William Perry, the Secretary of Defense at the time, almost resigned. Said his biggest regret in life is that he didn't resign over it. George Kennan was able to see right through that fog. He literally said, the Cold Warrior, founder of the containment strategy, saw right through that fog and goes, "This will inevitably lead to a conflict with Russia." And his exact words were, "And then when there's a Russian response, everybody will say, 'Look, this is why we needed to expand, uh, NATO.'" But the, the point here is, okay, even within that deep debate, which there were lively debates about, even the people who were on the pro-expansionist side of things, uh, like Henry Kissinger, even he said Ukraine would have to be a special arrangement. Ukraine will not come into NATO because obviously-

   11. DMDouglas Murray1:03:15

       Yes.

   12. DSDave Smith1:03:16

       ... that's leading to a war with, with Russia. And so I don't think it's unreasonable, and I think this is a fair thing that we should do in all conflicts, is like, to have as a, as, as, uh, Mearsheimer puts it, to have strategic empathy. To say like, "Hey, listen. Let's, let's reasonably place ourselves in the other person's shoes and say how would we react if somebody was expanding their military alliance-"

   13. DMDouglas Murray1:03:40

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DSDave Smith1:03:40

       "... that is explicitly anti-us and is bringing it up to our borders and now is openly for years and years and years saying that we are going to bring your largest neighbor, where you have very important strategic interests from your point of view, into our military alliance, and you are saying over and over again, 'This is our brightest red line. Do not do this.'" And then they keep flirting with doing this over and over, then they back a street putsch that overthrows the government there.

   15. DMDouglas Murray1:04:08

       Well-

   16. DSDave Smith1:04:08

       Don't you think maybe that would be a provocation?

   17. DMDouglas Murray1:04:11

       Uh, f- first of all, two things. The s- if you want that strategic empathy that Mearsheimer, I'm not an admirer of, um, but if you wanna do that, um, you can do it the other way around as well surely.

   18. DSDave Smith1:04:26

       Yeah.

   19. DMDouglas Murray1:04:26

       I mean, do the same thing with Ukrainians.

   20. DSDave Smith1:04:29

       Absolutely, yes.

   21. DMDouglas Murray1:04:30

       Do the same thing with the Latvians and others.

   22. DSDave Smith1:04:31

       Yeah, but I would never-

   23. DMDouglas Murray1:04:32

       It's, it's-

   24. DSDave Smith1:04:32

       Douglas, my response to you was never, I can't understand why the Latvians or, or the Lithuanians-

   25. DMDouglas Murray1:04:37

       No, no, no.

   26. DSDave Smith1:04:37

       ... would want to be in NATO. I can under-

   27. DMDouglas Murray1:04:38

       I understand, yes.

   28. DSDave Smith1:04:39

       Right, right. And I can understand why Russia thought that Ukrainian membership in NATO was a red line. I can understand that. But that wasn't why Putin invaded in 2022. He, uh, and I think, and I think there's an oddity if I can say so, maybe this particularly comes across on the libertarian bisexual side. But the, I think there's an oddity of the, uh, uh, uh ... (laughs) Let the record show him a happily married heterosexual man. (laughs)

   29. DMDouglas Murray1:05:02

       Um, they all say that. (laughs)

   30. DSDave Smith1:05:05

       (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:58:48