Joe Rogan Experience #2303 - Dave Smith & Douglas Murray

1. 0:00 – 1:19

   Rogan’s goal: a real conversation instead of “screaming TV debates”

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. DMDouglas Murray0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) All right, we're up. Thanks for coming. Good to see you guys. What's happening? Are you going no headphones?

   4. DSDave Smith0:18

      Oh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Keep the dew? (laughs)

   6. DMDouglas Murray0:20

      I'll do that. I'm not quite sure where they add, but yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      There we go, all right. Uh, the goal of this is every time I see people that disagree with anything that's happening, any, uh, uh, gigantic world events, it's one of these retarded shows where they're screaming... There's the word again, we brought it-

   8. DSDave Smith0:37

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:38

      ... we were just talking about that.

   10. DSDave Smith0:39

       You did it early.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Uh, the word "retarded" is back and it's one of the great culture victories. (laughs)

   12. DSDave Smith0:45

       (laughs)

   13. DMDouglas Murray0:45

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       That I think has-

   15. DSDave Smith0:46

       It is.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       ... spurred on probably by podcasts, but, um, these things are always like Piers Morgan-y, which is fine, you know, where everyone's screaming over each other and, you know, there's five different people talking over each other. There's never just rational conversations where you discuss things and, um, I respect both of you, I think both of you are brilliant. And I thought, I bet you agree on a lot of things and I bet you disagree on a lot of things, and it'd be fascinating to see your perspectives on these things, so that's why you're here together.

   17. DMDouglas Murray1:16

       Okay.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Hmm?

   19. DSDave Smith1:17

       Well... (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       (laughs) Douglas, Douglas.

2. 1:19 – 2:40

   Guest selection, perceived tilt, and whether pro-Israel/pro-Ukraine voices are underrepresented

   1. DMDouglas Murray1:19

      Can I ask you something?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:20

      Yes, sir.

   3. DMDouglas Murray1:21

      Since the war in Israel began, and since the war in Ukraine began, you've had quite a lot of people who are very against both in different ways.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:30

      Yes.

   5. DMDouglas Murray1:31

      Do you think you've had enough people on who are supportive of either war?

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:35

      (inhales deeply) I don't know that word enough, if that's a good word. Um...

   7. DMDouglas Murray1:40

      Let's say om- let's say m- enough people who are on the side of Israel instead of wild critics of Israel.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:46

      Well, I've had a few. I mean, I believe God's Sad is- is on the side of Israel, um...

   9. DSDave Smith1:51

      For sure.

   10. DMDouglas Murray1:51

       Jordan is on the side of Israel, um...

   11. DSDave Smith1:53

       You had, uh, Mike Baker-

   12. DMDouglas Murray1:54

       Yeah.

   13. DSDave Smith1:54

       ... Coleman Hughes.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:55

       Yeah. I've had-

   15. DMDouglas Murray1:56

       Coleman did it for like 20 minutes, so it wasn't why he was here.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       No. I mean, none of them, and n- none of them is why they're here.

   17. DMDouglas Murray2:03

       Hmm...

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       You know? It's a good question.

   19. DMDouglas Murray2:05

       Do you think you've tilted one way?

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:09

       Um, me personally?

   21. DMDouglas Murray2:10

       No, no, no, just with the guests that you've had.

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       The guests? Yeah, probably more tilted towards the idea that perhaps the way they've done it is barbaric.

   23. DMDouglas Murray2:20

       Mm-hmm. But why do you think that is? Just out of interest. Or just out of-

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:23

       Because-

   25. DMDouglas Murray2:23

       I'm sort of interested in your selection of guests because you're like the world's number one podcast, so...

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Yeah, it's not-

   27. DMDouglas Murray2:29

       It's...

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:29

       I don't... I don't think about it that way, I just think, "I'd like to talk to this person."

   29. DMDouglas Murray2:36

       But, l- can I just-

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:38

       Yeah, yeah, sure.
3. 2:40 – 6:38

   Who counts as an expert? Daryl Cooper, Ian Carroll, and the ‘platforming’ argument

   1. DMDouglas Murray2:40

      I- i- if you're gonna interview historians of the conflict or historians in general-

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DMDouglas Murray2:45

      ... why would you get somebody like Ian Carroll or...

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:48

      Yeah, but Ian Carroll, I didn't bring him on for that purpose. I brought him on because I wanted to find out, like, how does one get involved in the whole conspiracy theory business? Because his whole thing is just conspiracies.

   5. DMDouglas Murray2:58

      Sure.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:59

      You know?

   7. DMDouglas Murray2:59

      But do you have any, uh... I mean, there's been a tilt in the conversation, in both conversations, in the last couple of years, and it's largely to do with people who have appointed themselves experts who are not experts.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:15

      You mean like Ian? I don't think he appoints himself an expert in anything.

   9. DMDouglas Murray3:18

      Who's that other dude who thinks he's an expert on Churchill?

   10. DSDave Smith3:22

       Daryl?

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       Oh, Daryl Cooper-

   12. DMDouglas Murray3:24

       Daryl.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:24

       ... does not think he's an expert.

   14. DSDave Smith3:25

       No, in fact, I think it's everybody else is always calling him an expert and he's like, "I'm just a history nerd."

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       Have you ever absorbed any of his material? Have you ever consumed any of his podcasts or anything like that?

   16. DMDouglas Murray3:34

       I've tried.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:35

       Yeah?

   18. DMDouglas Murray3:36

       It's pretty hard to listen to somebody who says, "I don't know what I'm talking about, but now I'm gonna talk." Or, "I don't know about this," or, "I'm not capable of debating this historian, but I'm gonna just tell you what I think."

   19. DSDave Smith3:50

       Yeah, but that's not exactly-

   20. DMDouglas Murray3:51

       I think that's a little bit out of context.

   21. DSDave Smith3:51

       ... that's not exactly what Daryl was saying. I mean, Daryl's point of view, however you feel about this, Daryl, what Daryl's saying is he doesn't really like doing debates, he likes to do long format stuff where he can really explain his position.

   22. DMDouglas Murray4:03

       But there's, if you throw a lot of shit out there, there's some point at which, "I'm just raising questions," is not a valid thing.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:10

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DMDouglas Murray4:11

       You're not raising questions, you're not asking questions. You're telling people something.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:16

       Do you think Daryl's doing that?

   26. DMDouglas Murray4:17

       I think there's a whole bunch of guys doing that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:19

       I think-

   28. DMDouglas Murray4:19

       I think Dave is doing that very obviously. Dave's a comedian, but he's now mainly talking about Israel.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:29

       No.

   30. DSDave Smith4:29

       I don't know if I'm mainly talking about Israel, but I-
4. 6:38 – 15:24

   Churchill revisionism and the slippery slope to Hitler minimization

   1. DMDouglas Murray6:38

      He's wildly... Several reasons. One is, when he was offered to debate the current greatest living biographer of Churchill, he said, "I can't because he knows much more than me, and I admire his work and I've learned from it, but I, I can't possibly debate him." That's Andrew Roberts.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:58

      Right, but you don't have to be able to debate people to have opinions on things.

   3. DMDouglas Murray7:02

      No, no, no. You don't have to debate people. If you-

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:04

      If it's not your thing.

   5. DMDouglas Murray7:04

      But if you, for instance... Well, okay, but if you say, "I've decided that Churchill is the bad guy in World War II."

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:11

      It's not what he said. It's not what he said. It's not what he said.

   7. DMDouglas Murray7:13

      Neither Carroll nor Cooper have said that?

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:15

      Well, listen. I don't know what Carroll said, but Daryl Cooper has not said that. What he said was, he, he jokes with his friend Jocko, who's an Anglo-Saxon, he jokes with him, you know, "I think that Churchill was the secret villain of World War II." And what, what he's-

   9. DMDouglas Murray7:32

      Hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:32

       ... saying is, by Churchill's actions, the war escalated. He's not-

   11. DMDouglas Murray7:36

       I don't think so.

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:37

       He's not, he's not, he's not saying anything that-

   13. DMDouglas Murray7:38

       He's not just asking questions then, is he? He's got a point of view.

   14. DSDave Smith7:41

       No, but that's, the claim isn't that he's just asking questions. Yeah, he has a point of view.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:44

       You could explain this better. He literally says he's joking.

   16. DSDave Smith7:46

       Yes, he said in the comment, he goes, "Listen, I'm being hyperbolic." And then, he once again, uh, uh, disclaimed, he goes, "And I'm not claiming Churchill committed the most atrocities or was the worst part, but in many ways, I do view, view him as the chief villain, as my hyperbolic, provocative statement." But, but, Douglas-

   17. DMDouglas Murray8:03

       What, what's the point of that?

   18. DSDave Smith8:03

       Well, okay, but Pat Buchanan wrote an entire book on this. Is he not allowed? Is he not an expert? Is he not allowed to be interviewed?

   19. DMDouglas Murray8:09

       He's certainly not an expert. He can be interviewed. I've watched Pat Buchanan debate. I watched Pat Buchanan debate against Churchill historians, and he was absolutely leveled because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

   20. DSDave Smith8:18

       When did he, when did Pat Buchanan debate and get leveled?

   21. DMDouglas Murray8:20

       Oh, it was about 20 years ago.

   22. DSDave Smith8:21

       I, I'm just curious. I haven't seen this.

   23. DMDouglas Murray8:22

       He debated against Andrew Roberts and several other historians at Intelligence Squared in London. I was there. He didn't know what he was talking about. He had a contrary view, and it was interesting and stimulating to hear. But if you only get the contrary view, which is, "Isn't it fun if we all pretend Churchill was the bad guy of the 20th century?" At some point, you're gonna lead people down a path where they think that's the view. And that's horse shit of the most profound kind.

   24. JRJoe Rogan8:50

       I don't think that's what he's trying to do.

   25. DMDouglas Murray8:52

       I think that's exactly what they're doing. And the problem is, is that because you, I mean, your own platform has come about because you're a very successful comedian and much more, and you do ask questions, and you are interested, but there are a lot of people who have come along, partly I think because they've come on this show, who have come along and they've decided, "I can play this double game. On the one hand, I'm gonna push really edgy and frankly sometimes horrific opinions. And then if you say, 'That's wrong,' they say, 'I'm a comedian.'"

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:26

       But wait a minute. No, no, no.

   27. DMDouglas Murray9:27

       "What do I, what am I, what, what, how can you tell me I'm just a comedian?"

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:30

       No, no, no. Well-

   29. DMDouglas Murray9:30

       "I'm just throwing stuff out there."

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:31

       ... what, what horrific opinions that's wrong are you talking about specifically?
5. 15:24 – 17:53

   Institutional trust collapse, ‘red-pill’ dynamics, and audience capture

   1. DMDouglas Murray15:24

      in playing with this absolute, uh, beyond the pale thing. Why somebody like Jake Shields wants to play around with Holocaust denial. Why?

   2. DSDave Smith15:36

      Uh, I, I can't answer for Jake Shields. I, I don't know. I have no idea. Why do you think? I have no idea. I think-

   3. DMDouglas Murray15:41

      I, I'm telling what-

   4. DSDave Smith15:41

      ... a lot of people get captured by this, by audience capture.

   5. DMDouglas Murray15:45

      Captured by their audience.

   6. DSDave Smith15:46

      Yeah. I think that's, that's a thing. You get a, a lot of positive reinforcement from a bunch of twisted people.

   7. DMDouglas Murray15:52

      Yeah.

   8. DSDave Smith15:52

      Well, it's also, I mean, it's, there's something about, um, you know, Michael Malice had that great line. He goes, uh, "When you take the red pill, you're supposed to take one and not swallow the whole bottle."

   9. DMDouglas Murray16:01

      Yes. (laughs)

   10. DSDave Smith16:01

       And I think there's, like, this dynamic. What happens is, and then-

   11. DMDouglas Murray16:04

       (coughs)

   12. DSDave Smith16:04

       ... of course, people know the red pill is the analogy from The Matrix. The idea that you wake up to realizing that so much of the stuff you believed was bullshit propaganda-

   13. DMDouglas Murray16:13

       Absolutely.

   14. DSDave Smith16:13

       ... and is all lies. And thi- this is a real danger when the establishment and the institutions are all caught with their pants down, having sold a bunch of very consequential policies based on lies. And then once people realize that, they go, "Well, what else have they been lying to me about?" And then they almost wanna look into every single thing-

   15. DMDouglas Murray16:32

       Yeah.

   16. DSDave Smith16:33

       ... and go, "Yeah, I think the whole thing was lies." Now, I agree with you. There's danger in that. And I think that there are some things that then people jump to conclusions that are totally wrong. But I guess I tend to look at that and go, well then maybe the people with power, not random podcasters, but, like, the people with real power should do a better job of not lying through their fucking teeth about everything.

   17. DMDouglas Murray16:54

       Well, maybe you have power.

   18. DSDave Smith16:55

       Okay.

   19. DMDouglas Murray16:57

       Maybe you have power, both of you. We live in an era where podcasters have a lot of power. If you go on a podcast with Jake Shields and Jake Shields goes onto another podcast and says he doesn't think six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, what do you think is happening there?

   20. DSDave Smith17:12

       (clears throat)

   21. DMDouglas Murray17:12

       That's an exercise of power.

   22. DSDave Smith17:14

       Okay.

   23. DMDouglas Murray17:14

       Okay? A, a, um ... And I agree with you about the breakdown of trust. Absolutely. We have lived through an era where, in real time, we saw something called a conspiracy, the lab leak, which turns out to be true, as you and others said it might be from the beginning.

   24. DSDave Smith17:32

       I find that to be very racist.

   25. DMDouglas Murray17:34

       (laughs) And against Joe or against-

   26. DSDave Smith17:37

       How d- how dare you say this? Both of you. Both of you.

   27. DMDouglas Murray17:39

       It used to be racist.

   28. DSDave Smith17:40

       That is just, that was-

   29. DMDouglas Murray17:40

       It used to be racist when we were saying-

   30. DSDave Smith17:41

       That was crazy.
6. 17:53 – 26:13

   Ads break, then back to incentives and “fringe views going mainstream”

   1. NANarrator17:53

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   3. JRJoe Rogan19:28

      I was j- I was referencing the New York Times calling the lab leak-

   4. NANarrator19:31

      Lab leak racist, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:32

      ... uh, racist-

   6. DSDave Smith19:32

      Which is just the funniest thing ever-

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:33

      Yeah.

   8. DSDave Smith19:33

      ... that they go, "It's racist to think that there was a sophisticated lab where they were developing, like, gain-of-function research." And they go, "No, what happened is these freaks were eating bat heads."

   9. NANarrator19:43

      That's right, yeah, yeah.

   10. DSDave Smith19:43

       And they're like, "Wait, that's not racist?"

   11. NANarrator19:45

       That's pretty racist. (laughs)

   12. DSDave Smith19:45

       "The other one was racist?"

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:46

       They're eating pangolins. Yeah. (laughs)

   14. NANarrator19:50

       I'm suspicious. (laughs)

   15. DSDave Smith19:50

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:50

       Well, it's-

   17. NANarrator19:50

       But that one fell apa- that one fell apart-

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:52

       Mm.

   19. NANarrator19:52

       ... in front of our eyes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:53

       Well, it took four years.

   21. NANarrator19:53

       And, of course, it took, but it took four years.

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:56

       Yeah.

   23. NANarrator19:56

       And I, I've said repeatedly, it's kind of inevitable to me, that if you see something that is called a racist conspiracy theory fall apart and become also what we used to call true in a few years, it's likely to blow a lot of people's minds. But the question then is, do you help those minds that have been blown blow themselves out some more by doing a whole load of other conspiracy stuff? Do you decide to go, "Hey, what else have we been lied to? Maybe Churchill wasn't a great guy. Maybe Hitler wasn't such a bad guy. Maybe the Holocaust..." And et cetera, et cetera.

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:29

       Nobody is here saying that.

   25. NANarrator20:31

       And that is exactly what they're-

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:31

       No one is saying, "Maybe Hitler wasn't such a bad guy."

   27. NANarrator20:34

       You are saying that if you're saying that.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:35

       What, w- no one's saying that. They were doing-

   29. NANarrator20:36

       If you're saying that in the 1930s j- uh, Hitler kept the antisemitism down.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:39

       No, because in-
7. 26:13 – 45:21

   Churchill weeds: Operation Unthinkable, historical context, and judging leaders in hindsight

   1. DSDave Smith26:13

      Churchill was the author of this whole Operation Unthinkable, right? Where they wanted to use the Nazis to invade Russia? Wasn't that Churchill?

   2. NANarrator26:22

      (sighs) Is that not true? We're gonna have to get into the weeds on Churchill. There is always going to be a corner which you can get me on, on a bit of Churchill. But- But that's the point.

   3. DSDave Smith26:35

      You'd have to, you'd have to say what you're-

   4. NANarrator26:36

      But that's the point, which is-

   5. DSDave Smith26:36

      ... which bit you're talking about.

   6. NANarrator26:37

      ... to have a comprehensive view-

   7. DSDave Smith26:38

      Yeah.

   8. NANarrator26:39

      ... of all the- Churchill was never working with the Germans to invade Russia. No, no, no.

   9. DSDave Smith26:43

      That's what it says.

   10. NANarrator26:43

       This was a plan that was drawn up. Do you, do you know about Operation-

   11. DSDave Smith26:48

       Go, fire away.

   12. NANarrator26:48

       ... Unthinkable?

   13. DSDave Smith26:48

       Fire away.

   14. NANarrator26:49

       You've never ... Pull it up, Jimmy. Um, O- Operation Unthinkable was wha- at the end of the war, I believe Churchill was- Oh, at the end of it? ... concerned about the rise of, of Russia. The, and, and the rise of the Soviet Union. And the, the idea was, and we'll find out what the historical facts are about this. Operation Unthinkable, the name given to two related possible future war plans developed by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee against the Soviet Union during 1945. The plans were never implemented. The creation of the plans was ordered by the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill on May, 1945, and developed by the British Armed Forces Joint Planning Staff in May, 1945, at the end of World War II in Europe. One plan assumed a surprise attack on the Soviet forces stationed in Germany to oppose the will of the United Sta- impose, rather, the will of the United States and the British Empire upon Russia.

   15. DSDave Smith27:39

       Right.

   16. NANarrator27:39

       The will was qualified as a square deal for Poland, but added that that does not necessarily limit the military commitment. The assessment, signed by the Chief of Army Staff on 9 June, 1945-

   17. DSDave Smith27:52

       Right.

   18. NANarrator27:52

       ... concluded it would be beyond our power to win a quick but limited success, and we would be committed to a protracted war against heavy odds. The code was-

   19. DSDave Smith28:00

       Right.

   20. NANarrator28:00

       Yeah. So- This is, uh, okay, first of all, I, I never do Wikipedia. Okay, but you don't have to do Wikipedia to this. Uh, but that's okay. No, no, no, that's okay, that's okay.

   21. DSDave Smith28:08

       This is just what Jimmy pulled up.

   22. NANarrator28:09

       But s- but, okay. But first of all, yes, at the end of the war, an, a plan requested that wasn't seen through-

   23. DSDave Smith28:18

       Let's see.

   24. NANarrator28:18

       ... that suggests that after the defeat of Nazism, communism of the Soviet form is also gonna be a threat to Europe, was simply, uh, evidence, I mean, it was obvious.

   25. DSDave Smith28:27

       True.

   26. NANarrator28:27

       It's what, uh, Churchill had worried th- about throughout the, the '40s. He was worried about it in Yalta, he worried about it everywhere. I'm s- sorry, but I have to return to this point that this man manages to do one of the most heroic things in human history, in standing alone against evil in its most concentrate form. And he does about as much as any human being can do to save the civilized world. If you just park that and you go onto a plan in 1945 to try to counter Soviet domination of Europe, do you see what I'm say- this is-

   27. DSDave Smith29:08

       Yeah, but no one's doing that.

   28. NANarrator29:09

       This is, this is not doing something in the round.

   29. DSDave Smith29:12

       Yeah, it's also, look, I mean, the, uh, look, I, I'm not even, like, the ex- I'm not at all the expert on World War II. Um, and I'm not, like, gonna debate with you about World War II. But I would say that, like, that is, there's a lot of room for nuance i- i- and disagreement with what you just said. You know, in the 20th century, we had two world wars. They're the worst thing, objectively speaking, the worst thing that's ever happened in the history of the world. And the Second World War is the biggest bloodbath in human history, and it ended with handing the man who you just mentioned, Joseph Stalin, half of Europe. So, listen, if you wanna argue, which I'm, I'm Jewish and my f- of German descent, so like, I'm not against (laughs) the argument that it was, the Nazis had to be defeated and that was the most important thing. But there still is just the basic facts, that it was a ... it almost couldn't have gone worse. It was like, just a nightmare for civilization. And if people wanna look back at that and go, "Man, was there any other way this could've been handled? Was there any other way, were there blunders that were made here?" Now, personally, what I feel much more, uh, comfortable arguing would be that, I try to blame everything I can on Woodrow Wilson as much as I can, because also he created the income tax and the Federal Reserve, and did so much to damage my country. But I think American entry into World War I was really a, a disaster. And imposing the Treaty of Versailles on Germany was a disaster. I also think that's kind of, um-... fairly mainstream history. Like, that's not a particularly controversial view, that like, imposing the Treaty of Versailles on Germany ended up in disaster.

   30. DMDouglas Murray30:43

       Well, no, except that as Martin Amis said, the only way to not get to the Treaty of Versailles would be for Germany to win World War I, but yeah.
8. 45:21 – 48:44

   Experts, hygiene, and algorithms: Twitter-like incentives in podcasts and politics

   1. DMDouglas Murray45:21

      No, it's fine. It's fine. Yeah. I know. Let me just make the main point. I think what I'm trying to get at, Joe, is that it's a bit like the Twitter algorithm thing, which is, yes, everyone is and should be free to say what they like on Twitter, apart from whatever the, I mean, the very fringe things of, like, immediate incitement of violence and all that kind of thing. But, uh, we all know that one of the oddities of Twitter, including since Elon took over, is that what you hope is a restored marketplace of ideas ends up pushing you really crazy shit.

   2. DSDave Smith45:54

      Yes.

   3. DMDouglas Murray45:55

      And that is what I'm suggesting is happening on a podcast level and maybe on a wider level beyond that. I get stuff on Twitter I just do not want. I do not want a guy with one and a half thousand followers who's got some zany new view on something, who isn't an expert but is an expert to be pushed at me. And effectively what is happening with the Twitter algorithm is happening everywhere else as well. And we're all for the open marketplace of ideas. I want that. I thrive in it. But it is, it is different once you get into the thing of, is something manipulating the algorithm behind? Is the algorithm being pushed on me? Why am I being given this? Why am I not being given that? Why am I being constantly pushed this view? And I think that the answer to a great degree is the same thing in your world as it is in the Twitter world, which is if you go straight online and you say, you know, "JFK file drops. Uh, watch live stream of Kennedy historians reading the papers live," you're not gonna get any views. No one's gonna watch it. That's what, kind of what's needed is for the people who know the documents to go through the documents. But you and I know that if, as there was some guy who did immediately, you do something like, uh, "Live stream Mossad involvement in JFK," you're gonna milk it. You're gonna cream it online. The money comes in. I'm saying that there's-

   4. JRJoe Rogan47:23

      Mm-hmm.

   5. DMDouglas Murray47:23

      ... a similar algorithm in all of our lives that we're not as aware of as we should be, which is that we, because we all know this at some level, that there are certain things that, uh, get your, a bit of your base going or get people going interesting and crazy and then they start debating it and all that sort of thing. And that algorithm of online seems to me to be spilling into the real world.

   6. DSDave Smith47:49

      I, I don't disagree that there's certainly more sensationalist stuff will get you more clicks. I, I also don't think that's a par- it's not really unique to social media or podcasting. I mean, this has been true-

   7. DMDouglas Murray47:59

      No, believe me, I write for the tabloids. I know that. (laughs) I mean, I, I-

   8. DSDave Smith48:01

      This has always been true, right? So yeah, okay, so it's kind of one of the problems of humanity.

   9. JRJoe Rogan48:06

      Yeah, I don't think anybody's arguing against that. You know, um, it's certainly never my intention when I talk to someone to try to get more views. It sounds crazy, but I'm only talking to people that I'm interested in talking to.

   10. DMDouglas Murray48:17

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan48:17

       And in Daryl's case, it's because I've been a listener of his podcast for years.

   12. DMDouglas Murray48:22

       Hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan48:26

       That's it. This is, like, genuinely how I perceive things.

   14. DMDouglas Murray48:31

       I beg you.

   15. JRJoe Rogan48:31

       That's why you're here. I'm genuinely interested in your views as well, even though you completely disagree with him.

   16. DMDouglas Murray48:39

       Good kind.

   17. JRJoe Rogan48:40

       That's, the, I mean, this is-

   18. DMDouglas Murray48:41

       Sure.

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:41

       ... the marketplace of ideas-

   20. DMDouglas Murray48:42

       Sure.

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:42

       ... in real time.

9. 48:44 – 1:21:20

   Ukraine: corruption, origin causes, NATO expansion, and ‘strategic empathy’ vs parochial blame

   1. DMDouglas Murray48:44

      I agree, although as I say, I think you've massively underrepresented the pro-Ukraine argument and the pro-Israel argument in the last two years.

   2. JRJoe Rogan48:55

      Um, I don't know. I mean, well-

   3. DMDouglas Murray49:00

      That's my observation.

   4. JRJoe Rogan49:01

      Okay. You're totally allowed to have that observation. What is, uh, the, what's the pro-Ukraine argument that you think is not being represented enough?

   5. DMDouglas Murray49:12

      Well, my b- broad view is that, again, something to do with the algorithm, that, uh, anything that is, uh, conspiratorial about Zelenskyy or the Ukrainians in the conflict does very well. Anything that says, actually, the Ukrainian army is fighting to try to retain as much of their country as they can, doesn't do as well. I think that everything that is pushing the idea that, for instance, the Americans caused it or something like that, does well. I think everything that says, actually, in February 2022, Vladimir Putin's tanks invaded Ukraine and they shouldn't have done, doesn't do as well.

   6. JRJoe Rogan49:58

      I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that what Vladimir Putin did wasn't horrific.

   7. DMDouglas Murray50:05

      That's not my point. The point is that after that, you, there's a whole set of things. Let, l- let's look at, for instance, the issue of corruption.

   8. JRJoe Rogan50:13

      Okay.

   9. DMDouglas Murray50:13

      Ukraine is a pretty corrupt country by EU standards, by the, uh, by World Bank standards. Um, and it's been a problem as it is in that neck of the woods. And it's understandable that if the US is one of the countries putting money and arms into Ukraine, then it's going to be a subject of legitimate interest to U-, American people and others, the European taxpayers. Nevertheless, you end up in this... And I know this because the same, it's the same thing in the old media, you end up on, like, the new bit of the story and there's always a risk that you will lose sight of the beginning of the story. For instance, I mean, Putin's corruption is legendary, gargantuan, and not as interesting it seems to me. The algorithm doesn't push that. And I think that's, uh, to a greater extent the case with the Israel-Hamas war as well.

   10. DSDave Smith51:14

       Well, i- isn't there a little bit of a concern? Like, I would say a, a couple things here. Number one, I'm not deny-... I don't know how the algorithm works or what it's pushing, and there... And it's an interesting thing that we probably should all know more about.

   11. DMDouglas Murray51:26

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DSDave Smith51:27

       But I think there's a danger when you're, to just ca- uh, classify everything as, "Well, the algorithm pushes this and doesn't push this." It's like, it could also be that some ideas are just resonating more and some ideas are more popular than other ideas.

   13. DMDouglas Murray51:37

       Hmm. Hmm.

   14. DSDave Smith51:37

       And there's probably, probably both of those things are at work in that dynamic.

   15. DMDouglas Murray51:40

       Sure.

   16. DSDave Smith51:40

       But I also think that something like the reason why, say, talking about Ukrainian corruption is more interesting i- i- in a lot of ways than talking about Russian corruption is obviously because like, well, one of these countries is an enemy and the other one is one that we're sending tens of billions of dollars to.

   17. DMDouglas Murray51:57

       Hmm. Hundreds.

   18. DSDave Smith51:57

       And so... Uh, yes, well, debating on between Zelenskyy and the weapons companies, I don't know, he says he only got 70 billion dollars of it, but we've spent closer to 170, so whatever. But the, the point is that obviously if there is a country that we are propping up, funding, arming-

   19. DMDouglas Murray52:15

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DSDave Smith52:15

       ... and they're corrupt, I, I would say my starting point would always be to be more concerned with that corruption than an enemy country, which it's almost kind of a given is a corrupt country.

   21. DMDouglas Murray52:26

       I know.

   22. NANarrator52:26

       I, I agree. I-

   23. DSDave Smith52:26

       Like, I, I don't know. I'm sure there are fringes of the right, uh, uh, who might say, like, Vladimir Putin's some great guy or something like that. But that is... I really do not think that is the argument that most people who are critical of this, of Biden's policy-

   24. DMDouglas Murray52:38

       No.

   25. DSDave Smith52:38

       ... are, are making.

   26. DMDouglas Murray52:39

       Sure. I, I, I mean, I think that one of the in- I think one of the interesting things that happens in this is the old cliche of losing the wood for the trees.

   27. DSDave Smith52:46

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DMDouglas Murray52:47

       Uh, it just happens an awful lot. And it's the na- it's the nature of the, the old news cycle, let alone the current one, the social media era. Um, actually, I remember that, uh... So I j- I don't have to go back to World War II, but let me just very quickly. I remember this debate with Pat Buchanan when he was debating much more learned historians on the subject of the origins of World War II. And the whole thing got lost in all of this sort of mad puzzle of views about iron ore production in the (laughs) Bavarian Forest and, and this sort of thing. And I remember everyone was all over the place, and the moderator turned to the historian Andrew Roberts and said, "Andrew Roberts, why did World War II begin?" And he said, "World War II began because Hitler invaded Poland." And those moments come along quite often at the moment, which is, yes, there's an awful lot of very interesting things to look into. There's a lot of very interesting things going on, which we should all be able to talk about and do talk about. But sometimes you have to remember the origin causes of things as well, and you have to stick to keeping that in mind.

   29. DSDave Smith53:51

       Yeah. Well, I certainly- I agree with-

   30. DMDouglas Murray53:52

       And I think that a lot of people are pretty bad at the moment of keeping that in mind. Like, you can very... You can concede Ukrainian corruption, you can concede, uh, all sorts of things and still not lose sight of the thing of if Russia rolls tanks into neighboring countries-

Episode duration: 2:58:48