Joe Rogan Experience #2308 - Jordan Peterson

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. JPJordan Peterson0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JPJordan Peterson0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) No, no.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Of course.

   5. JPJordan Peterson0:14

      No, no, no, no.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      That's on there, ƒ4, right?

   7. JPJordan Peterson0:14

      I'm too vain. That's exactly right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Uh...

   9. JPJordan Peterson0:16

      I look back and I think, "Oh, that, those headphones are pushing up my hair."

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       (laughs)

   11. JPJordan Peterson0:21

       (laughs) Isn't that sad?

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       Oh, you should shave your head.

   13. JPJordan Peterson0:24

       That's so sad. That's sad.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       And never look back if you do.

   15. JPJordan Peterson0:25

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Oh, it's the greatest thing in the world.

   17. JPJordan Peterson0:27

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       It's freedom.

   19. JPJordan Peterson0:27

       I have a, I have a big dent here from when a meteorite landed on me when I was a kid.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       A meteorite?

   21. JPJordan Peterson0:33

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       Oh, funny story.

   23. JPJordan Peterson0:34

       I know...

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       Oh, I've got plenty of cuts on my head.

   25. JPJordan Peterson0:36

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       I got 'em all over the place.

   27. JPJordan Peterson0:38

       Well, you're looking pretty unscarred, n-

   28. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Oh, the back of my head, I have, uh, one when I was a little kid that's pretty big that, uh, these, one of these cranes that lifts up sewer pipes, those big concrete pipes, banged me off the back of the head. Yeah, I grayed-

   29. JPJordan Peterson0:53

       Oh yeah, that's not good.

   30. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       ... grayed out, went to the hospital.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   We would never know,…

   1. JPJordan Peterson15:00

      a- it's certainly- the a- availability is a- a, uh, yeah, cr-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:03

      We would never know, though, because the-

   3. JPJordan Peterson15:04

      No.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      ... the- the birth control was- when was it? 19 ... 60 something?

   5. JPJordan Peterson15:10

      '60 ... That's really when it started to-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      Somewhere around then?

   7. JPJordan Peterson15:12

      Yeah, when it started to- to- to ramp up, let's say.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:15

      It's so crazy, because it completely changed the dyn- the dynamic. Women could have sex for recreation, with people that they didn't even know and not have any consequences in terms of, like, having to carry that person's child, whereas that was always a giant fear. If you're a woman, in the back of your head, every time you have sex, you possibly could be taking care of a child for the next 18-plus years.

   9. JPJordan Peterson15:38

      Yeah. Yeah, well, that-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:39

       Every time.

   11. JPJordan Peterson15:40

       Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Take this thing, this is a consequential thing, where with- with a guy, it's like you have this biological imperative to spread your seed, but you're not thinking about making babies, right? You're thinking about sexual activity. When a guy's having sex, he's not thinking, "I can't wait to make a baby." He's just thinking, "Boy, sex is gonna be great. I'm excited. Oh, boy, that's fun." You're not thinking, "I'm making a kid," uh, 'cause that would make you hesitant, and, uh, nature's not interested in hesitation. Nature's like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's just make you dumb as fuck for about 20 minutes and focus on one goal."

   13. JPJordan Peterson16:19

       So, why did you get married?

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Hmm ... Well, I love my wife. She wanted to get married. We had a- a child. It seemed like a good thing to do. It's like, at a certain point in time, making a baby is more of a commitment than getting married. You made a life, you know? Like, the commitment of getting married seemed-

   15. JPJordan Peterson16:40

       Right. Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:41

       ... like, of course. But it's also-

   17. JPJordan Peterson16:44

       But why did you stay committed then before the marriage once you had a child?

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       I just think it's a thing to do.

   19. JPJordan Peterson16:48

       Now, you said you loved your wife.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       I love her. It's the thing to do. It's, uh ... Life and raising a child became everything. It- it becomes- it becomes a very different thing, right? I think ... I have a lot of friends who don't have kids, and I don't- I'm not the type of person that thinks everyone should have a kid. You know, I know a lot of people with kids that do say that. I don't think everyone should have a kid. I think you should do whatever you want. I don't know how your brain works. I assume your brain works along similar lines with me, but there's a thing that happens when you do-

   21. JPJordan Peterson17:18

       It's a scary thought, Joe.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       Well, similar lines.

   23. JPJordan Peterson17:21

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       Similar-

   25. JPJordan Peterson17:22

       Okay. Okay.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:22

       We all share-

   27. JPJordan Peterson17:23

       Okay. Okay. ... simile- similar lines. (sighs) there's an empathy that comes from having a child that's so different, and an understanding that we are all babies that grew up. We all start off as these bundles of potential and genetics, and then we're influenced by so many different things or so many different factors. But I used to think of people as being grown up all the time, and then when I had kids, I was like, (sighs) "We're all just babies. We're all just babies that have just been alive for a long time, you know? Everyone started out as a baby." And it just profoundly changed the way I interact with people, the amount of compassion I have for people, the am- amount of charity that I have for people, the charitable way in which I think about them when they do something or they say something. I give people the benefit of the doubt way more.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:19

       And Dave Chappelle said this to me once at the Comedy Store, and it was very profound. He said, "Having children didn't just change the amount of love I have, it changed my capacity for love." And I was like, "Ooh, that's it. You just nailed it. You just nailed it." You know, 'cause there's ... W- there's private moments when you talk to people about their children, about having children, and what that's like. It's a very psychedelic experience.

   29. JPJordan Peterson18:47

       Okay. That would be another reason why the family with children is the foundation of the community, has to be the foundation of the community. I mean, it's kind of obvious from a biological perspective, let's say.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:59

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Was that the first…

   1. JPJordan Peterson30:00

      we're doing, uh, in the family, some of our family business, talk about Peterson Academy, talk about Essay. And so she'd go out on the stage and then-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:09

      Was that the first time she had ever gone on stage in front of ... You do enormous crowds.

   3. JPJordan Peterson30:13

      Yeah, well, so, so first of all, she did that, and then we replaced the, the business discussion, 'cause we were just doing an update about the family, you know, and so she'd do that. We replaced that with ads, and then she started to-... talk. She, she talked about the rules, saying 12 rules for life or some of the religious things I've been dealing with lately, and she'd relate that to something in her own life. And then she does the Q&A at the end of the lecture. And, and part of that was just, she was along with me, and part of that was Michaela was introducing me for a while and then had to go back to her work. And so we slotted Tammy in because it seemed like a good business decision. But one of the things we figured out very quickly that was really a shock to us was that people really liked especially the Q&As when... Because what people will offer their questions electronically on this platform called Slido, which is a very good platform for such things. And then Tammy would... They'd c- could upvote the questions, and then Tammy would sort them and ask me questions kinda from the top down that were thematically re- relevant to the lecture that I had given. But we found very quickly that people really liked that because they hadn't seen a couple engage in civilized discussion ever.

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:30

      (laughs)

   5. JPJordan Peterson31:31

      Seriously. Like, it was really-

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:32

      Yeah, there's a lot of that out there.

   7. JPJordan Peterson31:33

      ... it was really shocking, Joe. Like, you know, um, I was shocked when I first started touring by how demoralized people were. Like, that really, that was really striking and painful to see that on such a mass scale and then also to see how little encouragement it took to have a really major effect. I mean, there's a positive aspect to that too but there's also a tragic aspect. It's like, you mean you just need to have some encouragement and that was enough and you never got that-

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:02

      (laughs)

   9. JPJordan Peterson32:02

      ... like, even once? That's rough when you see that in thousands of people.

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:06

       Right.

   11. JPJordan Peterson32:06

       And it was the same thing. We found it was the same thing with regards to seeing a functional couple, at least even that model. Because, you know, Tammy asked me questions and she thinks about the questions. And then sometimes she comments but not that much, but she actually listens to the answers and she wants to hear the answer. And so-

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:28

       Wow.

   13. JPJordan Peterson32:28

       ... and that dynamic is being played out on stage, and people found that very heartening. And though that shows you, well, you said, you know, yourself, and this is why I brought it up because you had the example from your, from your stepfather and your mom-

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:41

       Yeah.

   15. JPJordan Peterson32:41

       ... of this long-term relationship that worked. I mean, how the hell do you orient yourself if you-

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:46

       Right.

   17. JPJordan Peterson32:46

       ... if you haven't seen that anywhere?

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:48

       Right. You, and then you're, you consider relationships just like all the bad ones, and like you're gonna be burdened and locked into that. Did you ever see that video where Alec Baldwin and his wife are on the cam- on, uh, the red carpet, and they're being interviewed and they're asking them questions. And the wife starts talking and Alex chimes in about something and she said, "You're not talking. I'm talking. When I'm talking, you're not talking." On camera.

   19. JPJordan Peterson33:17

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:17

       And you watch this you're like, "Yo."

   21. JPJordan Peterson33:20

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       That's what everyone's scared of.

   23. JPJordan Peterson33:22

       Right. Right, definitely.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:23

       That's what everyone's e- You wanna talk about, like-

   25. JPJordan Peterson33:24

       That competition.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:24

       ... tyranny.

   27. JPJordan Peterson33:25

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:26

       The tyranny of being trapped in a relationship like that. It's like, ugh. And sometimes one person is so overbearing that the other person just sort of submits to it, right? And then you're just like, "I don't even wanna, I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna deal with this."

   29. JPJordan Peterson33:39

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:40

       "I don't wanna deal with this." And so then you're just trapped, and this person's insulting you and humiliating you publicly. That was the case with Phil Hartman. I got to see that. We would, uh, all go, like, we went to a party once and I remember she was talking about ex-boyfriends, that she loves pickup trucks 'cause her ex-boyfriends had pickup trucks and they would climb into the back of these pickup trucks. And I was like, "What the fuck?" But it, she was doing it on purpose-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm. …

   1. JPJordan Peterson45:00

      a force for good, is that you are on a quest. And that quest, the consequence of that quest, if undertaken properly, is reputational enhancement. And people who can't or won't do that, they default to power games.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:14

      Mm.

   3. JPJordan Peterson45:15

      And the part of it... And that's a ver-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:17

      Yes.

   5. JPJordan Peterson45:17

      That's, that's the default to power.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      Right.

   7. JPJordan Peterson45:18

      But i- it's worsened with social media.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:21

      Absolutely.

   9. JPJordan Peterson45:21

      Because if you're, if, if, if you meet someone and they're playing a power game with you, you can just decide not to have anything to do with them anymore, or you can put a stop to it if you need to. But on social media, you can't because they're distant from you and they're often also anonymous.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:38

       Uh-huh.

   11. JPJordan Peterson45:38

       And so they can play power games to enhance their reputational status falsely with no consequences. And the social media is rife with that, and it's really a problem. Like, I think that virtualization has enabled the psychopaths and-

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       Without a doubt.

   13. JPJordan Peterson45:54

       Yeah. Well-

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:55

       Without a doubt.

   15. JPJordan Peterson45:55

       That's a terrible thing-

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:56

       Yes.

   17. JPJordan Peterson45:57

       ... because the psychopathic types, they're always the death of everything.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JPJordan Peterson46:01

       Like, I'm seeing this come up on the right now. So imagine, imagine this. I've been working on a new, a new theory of political psychopathology, and I like it quite a lot.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:10

       Is this where the term the woke Right comes in?

   21. JPJordan Peterson46:12

       Yeah. Well, i- the... Lindsey is pointing at that, but he hasn't got-

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:15

       Yes.

   23. JPJordan Peterson46:15

       ... he hasn't got the diagnosis exactly right. H- so it isn't woke. That's not the issue. It's not exactly. He's one level-

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       I think what they're talking about is, like, similar types of behavior.

   25. JPJordan Peterson46:25

       He is talking about that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       Yeah.

   27. JPJordan Peterson46:27

       Yeah. No. What he's point-

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:28

       Yeah. But he's just... Woke just lets you clarify in your head, oh, it's like that.

   29. JPJordan Peterson46:31

       Yeah. But the problem is-

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       It's like Antifa.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      And now the government shows it on their fucking website, which is crazy. Have you seen it, Jamie?

   2. NANarrator1:00:05

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

      Pull it up, 'cause it's bananas.

   4. JPJordan Peterson1:00:08

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:09

      And-

   6. JPJordan Peterson1:00:09

      Well, and it, it-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:10

      Look at this. Lab leak. (laughs)

   8. JPJordan Peterson1:00:11

      Yeah, right, no, I know.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

      (laughs)

   10. JPJordan Peterson1:00:14

       I know, I know.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

       By the way, um, y- you know, I, I know that he would bring up the vaccines when he was on his rallies and people would boo.

   12. JPJordan Peterson1:00:24

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

       When he was on the campaign trail, people would boo. And I, I think he was, like, confused by that.

   14. JPJordan Peterson1:00:29

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:29

       I think he's a little... I don't want to say he's out of touch. But there's too many things for him to be thinking about, for him to be paying attention to what people really think about the vaccines and vaccine injuries and mandates and-

   16. JPJordan Peterson1:00:41

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:41

       ... just the psychological warfare that was played on the American people. You remember that very famous White House post that they made? "For the vaccinated, you've done your job. For the unvaccinated, you're looking forward to a winter of severe illness and death-"

   18. JPJordan Peterson1:00:59

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:00

       "... and the hospitals that you will overwhelm."... like, that was the White House telling you something when it was in Omicron by that point-

   20. JPJordan Peterson1:01:08

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

       ... which was like a cold.

   22. JPJordan Peterson1:01:10

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

       Like, it was crazy. The deaths had dropped off radically but they were so in bed with the pharmaceutical companies that they were like, "You gotta do it. You gotta get vaccinated. And if you don't, you're, you're looking forward to death and severe illness." Like, (snores) imagine. This is... You're not basing this on real statistics. You're not basing this on science. You're just basing this on this control, this fear element that you're trying to impose upon people.

   24. JPJordan Peterson1:01:38

       So, okay, so that's, that's an interesting point there too, that issue of control and fear. You know, I started this... I, I was part of a group that started this organization in the UK called the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. We had our second convention in November, which went very nicely, by the way.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

       So, you're doing, like, a positive counter to the World Economic Forum?

   26. JPJordan Peterson1:01:58

       Yeah. Well, we have some rules and one rule is you don't use force or fear, right? Use invitation.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:05

       Mm.

   28. JPJordan Peterson1:02:06

       So, can I tell you a story about that?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

       Please do. Please do.

   30. JPJordan Peterson1:02:09

       Okay. So, I've been touring about this new book of mine, right, We, We Who Wrestle With God, and it's, uh... I've been lecturing about lots of the things I know, but I've been using biblical stories mostly to provide an analytical frame, 'cause that's what stories do, they provide a frame. And there's a great story in the continuing Exodus story, the story of Moses and the Israelites, where Moses has led the... his people away from the tyrant and away from their own slavery 'cause the... there's a dynamic in that story between those two things. No tyrants without slaves.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:19:41

   Yes. …

   1. JPJordan Peterson1:15:00

      climate apocalypse narrative is perfectly situated to... What would you say? To, to serve the perspec- to serve the purposes of the narcissists, the Machiavellians, the, the psychopaths, and the sadists, because it's a infinitely expanding existential threat that can be used as an excuse for anything.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:22

      Yes.

   3. JPJordan Peterson1:15:23

      Right? And it also provides a perfect cloak for any amount of power maneuvering. It's like, I wanna make your shower heads put out a needle spray so that you're cold all the time while you have a shower-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:36

      (laughs)

   5. JPJordan Peterson1:15:37

      ... while you're doing something you do every day that could otherwise be highly enjoyable. Why do I get to invade your life to that degree? Well, because the planet's at stake, Joe. And who are you to privilege your shower comfort-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:49

      Or, uh...

   7. JPJordan Peterson1:15:49

      ... something that trivial, over the fate of the entire planet? Well, you can use that argument at every single level.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:55

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JPJordan Peterson1:15:55

      You know, Trump came out with this executive statement just a few days ago about shower heads. And everybody kind of laughed about that. And I thought, "No, he has an eye for petty tyranny," right? For petty tyranny. And there, there's very little that's more petty than... Well, I think the shower head example is a perfect one.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:16:14

       Yeah.

   11. JPJordan Peterson1:16:14

       And then you also think, "Look, if they're willing to control your life at that level of detail, what are they not willing to control?" It's like, "You're concerned about my shower heads, like we're out of water-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:24

       Right.

   13. JPJordan Peterson1:16:24

       ... which we're not at all? So, what won't you control?" So you think, "Well, the psychopaths are edge cases. They'll move wherever the power is." They find a narrative that can be used to strike fear in the hearts of people and to justify compulsion. They ally themselves with that belief claim, and then they ratchet themselves up status hierarchies without any rep- true reputational validity, riding on that edge of fear and power.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:56

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JPJordan Peterson1:16:57

       Right? Right. I wrote an article, it hasn't been published yet, in The Telegraph, because I got hell, eh, a lot after one of our podcasts. You may know this, but-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:17:07

       The climate change stuff.

   17. JPJordan Peterson1:17:08

       That's right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:17:09

       Yeah.

   19. JPJordan Peterson1:17:09

       The whole bloody transcript was sent to the college as an indication that I was out of my wheelhouse. You know, and maybe I stepped a bit out of my wheelhouse when we had that discussion, 'cause I'm not a climate scientist, whatever the hell that is, by the way, 'cause you have to know a lot to be a climate scientist and an economist on top of that. So today, I'm talking about something that's a lot more psychological. The climate apocalypse narrative is a social contagion that's driven by power-mad psychopaths who are hellbent on using fear and compulsion to make sure everyone steps in line so that they can continue with their acquisition of undeserved power. And-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:17:47

       It's also effective enough that the people that are underneath the power comply and do the job of the man for the man.

   21. JPJordan Peterson1:17:55

       Yeah. Well, that's the advantage of using fear and compulsion.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:17:58

       Yes.

   23. JPJordan Peterson1:17:58

       Right? It's like, "Well, I have to go along with this, because my leaders, who had built up s- a certain degree of credibility, are telling me that-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:18:06

       Yeah.

   25. JPJordan Peterson1:18:06

       ... you know, the apocalypse is nigh." And who am I to... Well, first of all, question, because, God, there's a hard thing to figure out. You know, what's the global effect of human activity on the climate for the next 100 years? Well, good luck figuring that out. But this is why I'm making it more psychological this time. It's like, the climate fluctuates, and for complex reasons, but that doesn't mean that you get to look 100 years into the future, and you get to conjure up an apocalyptic narrative. And you get to say, "We're the only people that can save you." And you get to say, "You have to change every single thing you do in your life and prioritize our concern above all else, including even the wellbeing of your own children, or the f- economic future of the Africans, for example, who don't get to use fossil fuels." Right? You don't get to do that. You don't get to do that using fear and compulsion.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:18:56

       Not only that, it's being done by people who have been wrong about everything-

   27. JPJordan Peterson1:19:00

       (laughs) Oh, yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:19:00

       ... every step of the way.

   29. JPJordan Peterson1:19:01

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:19:01

       Every step of the way.

Episode duration: 3:11:27