Joe Rogan Experience #2314 - Hal Puthoff

Narrator 0:00 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays)

Hal Puthoff 0:12 All right.

Joe Rogan 0:12 All right. Now.

Hal Puthoff 0:13 Hey.

Joe Rogan 0:14 What's happening?

Hal Puthoff 0:15 Oh, a lot's happening, really.

Joe Rogan 0:17 A lot.

Hal Puthoff 0:17 A lot.

Joe Rogan 0:17 A lot's happening.

Hal Puthoff 0:17 A lot.

Joe Rogan 0:18 Thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited to talk to you. Um, I've been thinking about nothing but that since that dinner that we had, uh, a few months ago.

Hal Puthoff 0:26 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:27 Been thinking about it a lot.

Hal Puthoff 0:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:29 Y- you told me a lot of crazy stuff, so ... (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 0:31 (laughs) Yeah, well, it just seems like that, that's been my, my thing in life, uh, is-

Joe Rogan 0:35 (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 0:36 ... get involved in the crazy stuff no matter where it comes from.

Joe Rogan 0:39 When did that start? When did you start getting involved in the crazy stuff?

Hal Puthoff 0:43 Well, actually I began early on. I was, uh, you know, a ham radio operator as a teenager, and I went to a vocational school. I didn't think I'd ever go to college or whatever. But I got all involved in, uh, learning about, uh, radio, uh, transmission and all that kind of stuff. So I finally decided, I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna go to college and, and really concentrate on electrical engineering and physics and all that kind of stuff. (clears throat) But the weird stuff actually began, uh, kind of by absolute accident. At the time, I was, uh, involved at, uh, Stanford University, getting my PhD. Uh, I was just doing cool things. I had, I'd invented a broadly tunable infrared laser, uh, one of the first of its kind. Even got a patent as a graduate student.

Joe Rogan 1:34 Wow.

Hal Puthoff 1:34 And, uh, (clears throat) co-authored with my thesis advisor, uh, a textbook, graduate-level textbook, Fundamentals of Quantum Electronics, published in English, French, Russian, and Chinese. So I was, I was on a cool roll, just doing the normal physics kinds of things. (clears throat) But interestingly enough, once I was there writing a graduate-level textbook, I realized, you know, there's something I don't know, and that is, what about consciousness? What about living things? I mean, is it still just atoms and molecules all the way down, we just don't know about it? Or are there some additional fields or whatever? So it turned out, I came across, uh, (clears throat) uh, some publications by a polygraph expert who taught polygraph to the CIA and FBI and so on. And one day on a lark, he connected his polygraph up to his plants. And he saw signals coming out that looked like what you see out of people, and then he decided to threaten the plant like he would a person, (laughs) and he got a big response.

Joe Rogan 2:42 Whoa.

Hal Puthoff 2:43 And so, he then went on to connect up a couple of plants to polygraphs, and he would find that if he affected one, the other one would respond. So I thought, okay, well maybe this is some new fields that we don't include in our physics, so I came up with what, for me, was just a pure physics experiment. Uh, I was gonna grow some algae culture, split it up, put half of it in a laser link site far away, and zap the local culture to see if it responded, and I could measure velocity propagation and so on.

Hal Puthoff 3:13 So I sent that off to this, uh, polygraph guy, Cleve Baxter is his name, and so he said, "Well, that, that'd be a cool experiment." Well, here's one of these things where your life takes a left-hand turn totally at random. He goes to a cocktail party in New York City, and there he runs into Ingo Swann, who turned out to be so-called psychic-

Joe Rogan 3:36 Mm-hmm.

Hal Puthoff 3:36 ... famous artist, but fellow that m- did remote viewings, so-called. And so he invited him over to his, uh, to his, uh, lab and said see if he could affect the plants and so on. While he was there, he saw my, uh, write-up about the experiment I proposed, which for me is just a pure physics experiment. And so he then wrote me a letter and said, "Well, if you're interested in the borderline between animate and inanimate physics, why deal with algae culture? They can't tell you anything. You should be dealing with somebody like me." Well, I mean, I couldn't care less about dealing with, quote, "a psychic" or whatever, but attached to his letter he had a big, uh, report that had been generated at City College in New York where he'd done some experiments where he would raise and lower the temperatures of temperature-sensitive, temperature-measuring devices across the lab. And so I read that and I said, "Whoa, that's, that's pretty interesting." So just on a lark ... by this time, I'd, I'd, I'd headed over to Stanford Research Institute to do my, to do my laser work. So anyway, I invited him for, you know, a weekend, just to see what else he could do. And of course, I talked to all my physics colleagues and they say, "Oh my God, these guys are all frauds and charlatans. You better, you better know what you're doing." Well, it turns out that I had a great experiment for him, because we had an experiment set up at Stanford that was a very sensitive quantum chip inside of electrical shielding, inside of magnetic shielding, inside of superconducting shielding, completely acoustically isolated from the environment. No way anything on the outside could affect that little chip. They were only looking for quarks and stuff like that. So anyway, I brought him over to the lab and I said, "Remember that thing you did with the, with the, uh, thermistors there at City College in New York? Well, this is sort of that, like that on steroids." And so he said, "Okay, well, I'll see what I can do." Well, it turned out he'd generated all kinds of signals in, in that little quantum chip. And of course, the graduate student, whose life depended on this not being, you know, affected by anything outside, said, "Well, maybe there's, maybe there's some bubbles in the hydrogen line or something, something." But no, he was able to do it. But what was most interesting ...... was that I ask him, "Well, how'd you know what to do?" And he said, "Well, I didn't know what to do, so I just looked inside." Looked inside, through all this shielding. And, and he drew a diagram of what was inside there that'd never been published and he said, "Well, this is when I put my attention on it, that just happened, by accident."

Joe Rogan 6:21 So he drew... drew an accurate diagram of-

Hal Puthoff 6:23 Drew an accurate-

Joe Rogan 6:23 ... all the shielding that you had around this equipment.

Hal Puthoff 6:27 And, and the little quantum chip and its circuitry deep inside.

Joe Rogan 6:31 And w- when you say he was a- able to affect something, what in particular was he able to affect?

Hal Puthoff 6:37 Uh, well, in general, there was a big oscillating signal coming out of the thing that ran about 30 seconds or so, and then when he affected it, it just stopped oscillating. And then, like... and then he s- said, "Do you want me to do something else?" And then, he made it oscillate fast and that's when the quantum... when, when the graduate student sort of went berserko. And, uh, so he said, "Wait, wait a second. Let, let me see what's wrong here." And he couldn't find anything wrong, so he said, "Well, I'm sure that was just some kind of coincidental glitch." And he did it again. And so, he said, "Okay, let's-"

Joe Rogan 7:11 So he's doing it exactly when he's saying he's gonna do it.

Hal Puthoff 7:13 Exactly when he says he's gonna do it. But anyway, the reason I'm t- trying to get, get around to answering your question was that I then wrote this up and circulated it around to other physicists, and pretty soon, the CIA come landing on my doorstep and said, "Oh, have we been looking for you?" And I said, "You know... Why?" You know. Well, they had looked at my background. They saw that I had, uh, between my, uh, master's degree and PhD, I'd been a naval intelligence officer at the National Security Agency, I had lots of, uh, high-level clearances. And he said, "You know, we have a problem." And they plopped a big report down on the desk, about like that, and said, "Look, the Russians have been spending millions of dollars at their best institutes trying to use ESP for espionage purposes and we don't know how to evaluate it. I mean, no scientist in America even believes there is such a thing, and yet you did this experiment and it looked like this guy could actually get inside this device and describe it and affect it. And, and here you're at SRI, we have lots of brack- black projects here anyway, so we'd like, we'd like to check him out. Uh, can you, can you bring him back and let us come and do some experiments with him? And by the way, we're hoping that we'll find this is just all BS and, uh, we don't have to think about it, and that'll be the end of that." So anyway, brought him back, they spent a day hiding things in the boxes in envelopes and he would describe what was inside, and, uh, they were totally blown away, so they said, "Okay, we want... would like to give you a little project here, I don't know, 50 or 60K and see what else he can do." So anyway, that's how I got started on doing, quote, "weird stuff." And so, as that... many would know, that project, uh, ended up being very productive and it went over, uh, more than 20 years and so on, highly classified level that... Well, maybe we'll get to that separately, because I think the UAP stuff is kind of more interesting to, to start with. But anyway, that's h- that's how I got started in, in weird physics, you might call it, and then, uh, sort of like in Ghostbusters, well, if you've got some difficult problem, who are you gonna call?

Joe Rogan 9:38 (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 9:38 (laughs) You know? There I am. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:41 So what other things did you do with Ingo? So h- he was able to affect the oscillations, so he-

Hal Puthoff 9:47 Able to affect the oscillations.

Joe Rogan 9:49 ... so there's some... He had some sort of an ability. Did you d- describe, first of all, like, what this ability was? How he perceived it?

Hal Puthoff 9:58 He said that for some reason, starting when he was a little kid, um, he would, you know, try to focus on some news item or whatever and he'd suddenly get some kind of picture in his mind about what was going on, and later he would check it out and it would turn out to be correct. So he just said, "You know, I just..." He says he's-

Joe Rogan 10:18 So he stumbled upon remote viewing?

Hal Puthoff 10:20 He stumbled upon... Right. He-

Joe Rogan 10:21 But remote viewing and then being able to interact with the equipment and change the oscillation seems very different, right?

Hal Puthoff 10:29 It is very different, and, uh, and as we might discuss later, I've got some ideas about, you know, what some of the quantum mechanisms might be involved in that. But anyway, as far as the CIA was concerned, they were most interested in this ability to see through shielding, and they said, "Does that mean if we have all kinds of classified documents in a super good... like, safe, the Russians might be able to, you know, reach in and see them?" And so that- that- that's what they were most worried about. And so, anyway, uh-

Joe Rogan 11:01 Did you find that to be true?

Hal Puthoff 11:04 That started a whole program when we found out that, uh, it was true, that, uh, we started out doing what you would think, you know, just hiding things in the next room and can you describe them and stuff like that. And, uh... but then he got bored and he says, "Well, if you wanna know what's in the next room, go look." (laughs) "If you wanna know what's in the envelope or the box, open it up." He said... So he said, uh, "Well, you know, what do you have in mind?" He said, "Well, just send somebody out into the San Francisco Bay Area and I'll describe where they are." And so that's how what we call remote viewing program got started. We started doing experiments which each... I gotta... I gotta say, I- I- I- I resisted this stuff every inch along the way, 'cause as a physicist, I had no idea how this could po- possibly be. But nonetheless, we began working with him. Uh, our lab director, who's always concerned about was this some kind of hoax between the subjects and the experimenters, uh, he'd make up a long list and store them in his safe, and we'd go t-... get the envelope out of the safe, leave SRI, drive to wherever the envelope said, and he would give, give a description. That's how that whole program got started.

Joe Rogan 12:23 When you are experiencing this and you're initially very skeptical, when you start seeing these results, what kind of a shift does that have in your world view?

Hal Puthoff 12:36 It was very challenging, I gotta say, because as a physicist and as a quantum physicist, where I've, you know, written equations for all kinds of interactions, I had no clue how anything like this could possibly be. And I'll be, be honest, I still don't really have a clue about exactly what's, what's going on other than consciousness seems to be expandable out into the environment in a way that we don't usually, uh, consider could possibly be the case. Uh, you know, there, there are people who get into meditation and all that kind of stuff, but none of that was, uh, in, in, in my background. So I just found this a challenge and, um, it was only that (laughs) CIA was paying us to look into this that I kept going the next step, resisting every inch along the way. To give you an example, um, along the way, uh, there was a little bit of, uh, PR in the newsprint, newspapers about our experi- experiments. So we began getting people calling in and saying, "Well, I have some of that ability too," and, and whatever. And so, uh, one of the people that came along, uh, that way was Pat Price. He was, uh, um, ex Police Commissioner of Burbank, and he said, "You know, when we were solving crimes, I would get an image of where the culprit might be hiding and it would turn out to be correct. So maybe I have some of this ability." Well, I had no reason to necessarily believe that, but it turned out that right at that moment, we were being challenged by the CIA to prove this wasn't just some kind of a hoax between the experimenters and the subjects. And so they came up with coordinates, 'cause as it turns out, when we sent people out to a site and Ingo or somebody else had to describe it, they would describe not only the site as being observed by the outbound person, but also what was inside the building and what was on top of the building. So we suddenly realized, okay, that person is just a beacon. It's not that he's sending something back telepathically. So once we realized that, Ingo Swann in his never-ending challenge, uh, said, "Well, just give me coordinates, you know, latitude and longitude in degrees, minutes and seconds, and I'll look wherever that is and tell you what I find." So in fact, uh, okay, I found that hard to believe also, but we did a lot of experiments and started targeting on things. Anyway, Pat Price shows up, we do some local experiments, and he's doing very well as well. And so again, our CIA contract monitors were worried that this some kind of, you know-

Joe Rogan 15:28 Trickery.

Hal Puthoff 15:28 ... trickery and, and so that, so they came up with coordinates of what turns out to be right next to Sugar Grove facility, which is a highly classified NSA facility picking up Soviet satellite transmissions. So I just... I, I had no idea what it was. I mean, we always kept ourselves blind to what the target was so no one could say we just gave them the data. (clears throat) So Pat Price, uh, decided to, you know, to follow our instructions and go to those coordinates and say what he says. And so he describes this place, but as part of that, what he does is he says that he merged his mind, whatever you want to say, into a safe and a whole bunch of words popped up into his mind. So he gave this whole list of words. Okay, fine. So we wrote them all down, sent them off. Pretty soon the entire law enforcement apparatus (laughs) of the country landed on us and said, "How'd you get this information? This is highly classified project titles. Do you have a source inside?" And we went, "No, we were, we're just doing this experiment," and that's what he got. And so eventually, 20 years later, you can find the, the paper that was published by the CIA about w- what a deal this was. And so anyway, at that time, we were at a point where we were about ready to get the next year's contract, and we had, um, a deputy director, uh, John McMahon said, "Okay, well, let's not waste it on our sites for God's sakes. (laughs) Do a Soviet site." And so they gave us coordinates of a Soviet site, turned out to be an R&D facility at Semipalatinsk in the Soviet Union. And (clears throat) so we targeted Price on that, he turned out to be a really... a good remote viewer, along with Ingo Swann, and, uh, he described this giant crane that rolled over the top of a building. And, uh, I mean, it was... it, it sounded like science fiction. I mean, I, I've got some examples here of, of the drawings of that. And so, uh, it turned out that from satellite imagery, what he drew was correct. And so that finally started, okay, this stuff is real. It can be used. Let's go to work with it. So that's what started the whole, you might say, espionage-oriented, uh, SRI program on remote viewing. It went for, I don't know, like, 23 years or so, and-

Joe Rogan 18:13 What are the meetings like when you're explaining this to the CIA and you're showing them results, and you've got these, you know, hard-nosed individuals who are pretty rational?

Hal Puthoff 18:23 Right.

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Hal Puthoff 19:30 There are really basically two levels of response. For example, some of the early work when we went to, to, to brief, uh, we had 10 or 12 people and we're talking about the work. Pretty soon, the guy in the back of the room jumps up and he says, "I know what this is. This is some kind of psyop test of our gullibility, and I want you to know, whoever's, you know, putting this out, I'm not buying it." And he stormed out of the room.

Joe Rogan 19:54 Hmm.

Hal Puthoff 19:55 So that, that was one response. But there's a second response we got, which, uh, turned out to be interesting. At a certain point, after we had done a number of years of successful work in, in doing the remote viewing, we had to keep briefing higher and higher, as you can imagine. I hated briefing higher, because if you brief a high-level guy and he says, "Oh, come on, this is nonsense. This is BS." And, you know, that's the end, that's the end of your programs. (clears throat) So I got it up to a point where, for example, uh, I briefed, uh, Bill Casey, who was director of CIA under Reagan, and we had 45 minutes with him. And so I went through stuff like I've been describing for 45 minutes. He got so entranced with it that he dismissed the rest of his afternoon calendar, and we spent five hours briefing him on that.

Joe Rogan 20:50 Wow.

Hal Puthoff 20:50 So there was this funny thing where a certain level of people would just, "Ugh, this, this can't be." And then really high-level people seemed to be more open to it. So actually, we came up with a hypothesis, and that is, okay, people who make it to the top of the food chain might be people who, at some level inside themselves, are, you know, they're always making decisions based on insufficient information, and they end up making the right decision. That's how they got to where they are. So maybe this is, uh, some aspect that's at least at the unconscious level happening all the time. Well, that finally got put to a test, because there were some parapsychologists who did some experiments, uh, with a meeting of, uh, CEOs of, I think it was 67 CEOs of major corporations, and had them try to guess the numbers that were going to be generated on a computer the next day. And so they did that, and it turned out that those who scored quite positively, significantly so, when we interviewed them, it turned out they were the people who had the businesses that were really doing well. And the people who scored poorly had businesses that were kind of failing. So these, uh, investigators would ask them, "Well, you know, what the ... Are you using ... Do you use ESP or something? Do you have some glint of the future on?" They said, "No, no, no, no. I don't believe any of that nonsense. But I realized that when I trust my gut instinct, I'm usually right." So anyway, that sort of leads to the eye that this, this is a, a broadly, uh, available phenomenon that, you know ...

Joe Rogan 22:34 Do you think this is an emerging aspect of human consciousness, or do you think that this is something that maybe we developed a long time ago but lost because of communication, because of the written word, because of our ability to express ourselves, that we stopped communicating with the mind?

Hal Puthoff 22:56 I think your second, uh, interpretation is, is the correct one, 'cause probably, you know, when you're out in the jungle and there's a tiger coming down the trail that you don't know about quite, you know, it would be a thing that you would, could really help you-

Joe Rogan 23:11 Yeah.

Hal Puthoff 23:11 ... exist and survive, but once we get into language and technology and so on, you know, that sort of ... Nonetheless, we, we found ... I'll, I'll tell you what was the most mind-boggling thing in the whole program was the following. We had a few people who did really well. So of course, CIA wanted to know, "Well, we'd, we'd like to find people in CIA who could do this, so, uh, give us a full medical roundup of these people." So we got a full medical, including seven-layer brain scans.

Joe Rogan 23:50 (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 23:50 Uh, and they came back and said, "Well, these are just normal people." We said, "Oh. Oh. Well may- maybe it's psychological or neurological or whatever." So they did all those experiments, and they said, "These are just normal people." So we wondered, "Well, does that mean that normal people could, could do this even if they didn't know about it?" So about that time, (clears throat) uh, we said, "Okay, well let's, let's just bring in some people from SRI, uh, labs, uh, who never thought about ESP, who never thought about any of this stuff." So I remember we had a, a woman, Hella Hammid-... and we asked her to, uh, come, uh, volunteer for an experiment. She said, "What kind of experiment?" I said, "Well, it's sort of like an ESP experiment." And she said, "Oh, give me a break. I don't, I don't believe in that stuff." And I said, "Okay, uh, but, but do it anyway." And so, uh, one of the first experiments we did with her, and we have a, a wonderful, uh, diagram of, of, of what she did. We sent somebody out by our usual random protocol to a overpass over a freeway that's, uh, all fenced in with a very interesting structure, and she made a drawing of all of that and said, uh, "You know, there's this kind of trough up in the air, but it's got holes in it so it couldn't carry water. There's something going by really fast." I mean, she really nailed the place. And so we got the idea, and that was the biggest discovery in this whole thing, was that apparently, as with, say, athletic ability or, uh, musical ability, there's a bell curve.

Joe Rogan 25:34 Mm-hmm.

Hal Puthoff 25:34 And you got the superstars at one end, you got duds at the other, but to some degree, anybody could do it. So that had a lot of, uh, outcome later on in the program when finally, uh, to give an example of a real world, world result, a Soviet plane went down somewhere in Africa. That's all we knew. Somewhere in Africa, a plane went down. So Stansfield Turner, who was Carter's, uh, CIA director, knew about our remote viewing program, and so he said, uh, "Well, you've got these, quote, 'remote viewers' who are supposed to be so good. Why don't they find the plane for you?" So in fact, uh, we had a remote viewer at our lab and at that time, we were working with, uh, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base Foreign Technology Division. They had a remote viewer. So we targeted these two remote viewers. All they knew was a plane went down somewhere in Africa, hundreds of thousands of square miles. And, uh, to make a long story short, they described how it looked and put an X on the map that was three miles from where the plane landed. We were told that would never be revealed to the public, but it turned out that after Carter got out of office, he was giving a speech in, uh, Georgia someplace, and somebody said, "Well, anything happen while you were president that was really strange?" He said, "Oh, yeah. Uh, the Soviet plane went down in, uh, Africa and it was full of electronics, and we wanted to get it, and nobody knew where it was, and the satellites couldn't find it because of all the vegetation, and, but we had some remote viewers, so-called, and they pinpointed where it was, and we went in and got it before the Russians could find it." So I mean, so the real world consequences came out of this stuff.

Joe Rogan 27:25 So when Carter said that, was that a breach of confidence?

Hal Puthoff 27:29 That was a breach of security, but a president can-

Joe Rogan 27:33 They're allowed to do that?

Hal Puthoff 27:34 ... they're allowed to do that.

Joe Rogan 27:35 Don't tell Trump.

Hal Puthoff 27:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:38 (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 27:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:39 So, so you, the, the United States was able to go and get this jet, and-

Hal Puthoff 27:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:45 ... so by then-

Hal Puthoff 27:47 TU, TU-22 bomber, I think it was. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:49 So this has real world uses, so this, this remote viewing. So-

Hal Puthoff 27:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:56 ... do they invest more time and more effort into this now? Are there still skeptics?

Hal Puthoff 28:03 Well, we pretty much handled the skeptical problem, and let, let me, let me give you an example. I mean, as we're churning out these results, as you can imagine, anybody, you know, who didn't have direct knowledge of this would, would be skeptical, and rightly so, by the way.

Joe Rogan 28:19 Yeah.

Hal Puthoff 28:20 I mean, I was skeptical every inch along the way as we plowed our way into this stuff. So one day, uh, a guy shows up from CIA and says, "Okay, uh, I'm here to find out what the fraud is. I'm sure this is absolutely nonsense." We said, "Okay, fine." "So show me one of your experiments." So, you know, we put him in the lab with an interviewer, and another, uh, and then a remote viewer, and, uh, in this case, I'm sent out someplace, and, uh, for 30 minutes, and I come back. It turns out that the remote viewer described it really well, and he said, "Well, you probably told them where you were gonna go. Uh, uh, let's do another experiment, and I'm gonna go, and we'll go in my car 'cause you might have had a, you know, transmitter in your car transmitting where you were, where you're going. So I'm gonna pick the site." So we do another experiment, get a great result. So finally, he says, "Well, I, I gotta figure out what's, what's wrong with this." So my colleague, Russell Targ, and I sat down and said, "Well, this guy's a hard case, but we got the bell curve. Who knows? Maybe he's somewhere in the middle of the bell curve." So he comes in the next day and we say, "Okay, um, today, you're gonna be the remote viewer." And he said, "Oh, give me a break. I don't believe in this BS." He said it much more strongly than that, actually. And, uh, so, "No, no, okay, well, just, just try. You'll see we're not stressing you out," and whatever, whatever, whatever. And he says, "Okay." "And, uh, when you go to your place, I want you to take pictures and do a recording, and when you come back, show me your stuff before I show you mine." "Okay, fine." Well, it turned out we went to a playground with a merry-go-round. Meanwhile, back in the lab, he's drawing a picture of a playground with a merry-go-round, and he sees the results and he says, "Okay. You've convinced me." So it was that kind of thing that would push him over-

Joe Rogan 30:29 Yeah, there it is.

Hal Puthoff 30:30 ... yeah. There, there's an example.

Joe Rogan 30:32 Oh.

Hal Puthoff 30:32 Now, he misinterpreted what it was. He thought maybe it was a cupula or whatever.

Joe Rogan 30:37 Hmm.

Hal Puthoff 30:37 But anyway, that's his drawing on the right and that's where we were on the left. And so he said... So, so he went back to CIA and said, "Okay, this stuff really works." And, uh, he became one of their star remote viewers over the years.

Joe Rogan 30:50 Wow. So a skeptic-

Hal Puthoff 30:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:51 ... became one of their remote viewers.

Hal Puthoff 30:53 Yep, sure did.

Joe Rogan 30:54 What is the process? What is the process for a person to remote view? Like, m- is there a, a state that you have to go into? Is there a method to getting into that state?

Hal Puthoff 31:03 There is a method and it's different from what you might think. You might think, uh, you would say to somebody, "Okay, we've got somebody at site. Kind of imagine where they are and see what it looks like, and tell us what you find," and all that kind of stuff. They're usually wrong when they do that because their imagination comes into play and they make up something or whatever. But what we found out in the research, you know, it took years and a lot of trials, was that you get a visceral response to a site. It's not that you get, necessarily get an image. So in fact, we, we, we told them, "You know, if you, if you get an image, just put it down on the right-hand side of the paper because it's probably wrong. Instead, just kind of put down your feelings as you get into the site." And so, uh, you know, if it's like water, they might do waves, or if it's a mountain peak, they might, uh, as, as Jacques described (laughs) in one of your previous broadcasts, uh, a mountain peak and they just feel like drawing something like that. So bit by bit, the process is very much a visceral feeling process. And so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is, and also being very, um, not in a rush about it. It's sort of like you've got a door and you drill a hole through, and then drill another hole through and another hole through, and then finally the door crumbles, and then you've got a, a, a pretty good feeling for what the site is. So, so the process that we use to train people involves this multi-stage process where they're to go by feelings, colors, flashes of things. You see a flash, a piece of metal, don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever. So anyways, a whole training procedure that we developed, and eventually when we, uh, briefed, uh, the assistant, uh, chief of staff for intelligence, assistant director of intelligence for the army, they said, "Okay, well, then we need to have our people get involved in learning how to do this." And so they sent army intelligence officers. They picked out a gr- bu- bunch of them and said, "Hey, you've just volunteered to become a psychic spy." And said, "Well, okay." And they sent them out to SRI and, uh, we ran them through this step-by-step training procedure and they learned to do really, really well. I mean, uh, (clears throat) Joe McMoneagle, who anyone who follows the literature is, is known to be really an excellent, uh, remote viewer. And so, uh, give you an example, uh, (coughs) one time he said... I mean, we trained them and, and, and, and, and so they learned to do really well and we set up a whole program. And, uh, he said, "Okay, the... there's this site in the Soviet Union and they're making this unbelievably giant submarine and it's made out of titanium or something. It's... I mean, it's bigger than any submarine that anybody's ever heard of. And it's strange because the missile silos are on the top rather than along the sides." And so he gave this whole description. (clears throat) Of course, we had to... At that time, we were briefing all the way up to National Security Council and so they looked at this and they said, "This is nonsense." But about a month later, out rolls this unbelievably giant submarine, the Typhoon class submarine, the largest submarine ever made. Uh, indeed, uh, there are his sketches and a lot of description that went along with his sketches.

Joe Rogan 34:48 Wow.

Hal Puthoff 34:48 (sighs) And there's the submarine on the right. And so finally, the people at the National Security Council said, "Okay, we better start taking this seriously." So make a long story short, he eventually, Joe McMoneagle got a, uh, National Merit Award, uh, (clears throat) for over 200 great viewings he did for CIA, National Security Council, uh, FBI, I mean, you name it. So anyway, that grew into a whole industry.

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Joe Rogan 37:18 this for this long, you know that it works, but you're not exactly sure how it's working. Is that a fair assessment?

Hal Puthoff 37:25 That's a fair assessment. I mean, when we, as physicists, we hate to say, "Oh, don't have a clue." So, well, we now know there's so-called quantum entanglement, which is that things are, seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances. And so the easy answer's, "Well, it must be quantum entanglement." But, you know, that didn't, that's just words, it doesn't really tell us how it works.

Joe Rogan 37:51 Right.

Hal Puthoff 37:51 But, but to give you an exa- example, we wondered how far you could go. So we did an experiment again with Ingo Swann, who was such a, a, a really top level remote viewer, to view Jupiter, planet Jupiter before the flyby, before the NASA flyby. And, uh, so he did. And he described Jupiter the way anybody might, you know, red spot and all that kind of stuff. And, but he said, "But, but there's a thin ring around Jupiter. I wonder if I went to Saturn by mistake. But I really see a ring around Jupiter." And nobody knew about any ring around Jupiter. Carl Sagan happened to come by in the lab and he said, "Oh, what do you think of this? We get, we got this result." He says, "Ring around Jupiter? That's, no, that's nonsense. There's no r-..." But when the NASA flyby finally got there, it turned out there was a ring, a small ring around Jupiter. And so we got that in publication in, in a book we wrote about all this stuff before, uh, it was known in, in the scientific community. So that's what we find out, that apparently even distances is not a big deal.

Joe Rogan 39:07 We-

Hal Puthoff 39:07 The other thing, the other thing we wondered, uh, I can tell you what it isn't.

Joe Rogan 39:10 Okay.

Hal Puthoff 39:11 We thought maybe it was brainwaves. The Russians came up with an idea of, well, brainwaves, uh, are low frequency, long wavelength, um, they can seemingly get through some, some aspects of the environment. So we came up with a series of experiments and one of them was, okay, let's, let's put our remote viewers on submarines, take 'em to the, into the depths of the ocean, 'cause it turns out seawater is highly conductive. And so at the, even at low frequencies, even at brainwave frequencies, uh, it would be a complete shield for that. So we, we, we piggybacked on somebody else's experiments, uh, Stephen Schwartz's experiments using remote viewers to, to go find archeological wrecks and, uh, shipwrecks and so on, which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment. But anyway, we got to do two experiments. We got pristine results, even with them under there, under the ocean water. So we know it's not ordinary electromagnetic functioning. So we can strike one thing off the list. Not that we know what to put on the list in its place, other than, you know, it's, it's, it's gotta be some new field, some quantum aspect that we don't understand yet.

Joe Rogan 40:37 We don't understand, but yet you could repeat it.

Hal Puthoff 40:40 But we could repeat it.

Joe Rogan 40:42 Wow.

Hal Puthoff 40:42 Now, I'm at, I'll give you a, I'll give you another example of, of, of the skepticism that we got. And, and by the way, I, I can't blame 'em. Uh, we had some psychologists at, uh, SRI and they said, uh, "You've got that stupid ESP experiment stuff going on."

Joe Rogan 41:00 (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 41:00 "And, you know, this is gonna ruin our reputation. People think that we're, you know, we're a no non- we're a nonsense place. And so it's hurting our reputation." Of course, they didn't know it was a highly classified CIA program. So anyway, uh, so our director said, "Well, what do you think? I mean, how, how would you know if this is false or whatever?" And he says, "Look, make a list of all experiments, places that have been abs- uh, investigated, uh, looked, gone to as targets, and then give us the transcripts that were generated for those viewings. And don't tell us which ones go with which ones, and we'll try to rank, rank them for each place." And so they did that. Much to their chagrin, seven of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment series.

Joe Rogan 41:55 Wow.

Hal Puthoff 41:55 Give you another example of, of... And by the way, I, I, I can't, I can't complain about, uh, the skepticism. I mean, even as we're doing all this, uh, we haven't lost our skepticism about how, how could this be. Um, but we finally, we got into a spot where the only thing that was secret about this program was that it was secret. People heard that we had these people coming in and doing experiments, but we weren't publishing anything. So I went to the CIA contract manager and said, "You know, you, you've gotta let us publish something, because the only thing secret about this project is it's a secret project. So if we publish something, that, that, that'll handle that."

Joe Rogan 42:38 Did you wanna do that to get more scientists involved?

Hal Puthoff 42:41 ... yes, that was our personal, uh, aspect.

Joe Rogan 42:44 Right. So that if there was actual data, more people who were on the outside skeptical would say, "Well, hold on. Why am I skeptical? Maybe perhaps there's something to this." And then you start considering your own life.

Hal Puthoff 42:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:56 These moments of intuition, weird k- coincidences. You're thinking about someone, they call you.

Hal Puthoff 43:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:03 We all have this idea-

Hal Puthoff 43:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:05 ... that there's something there, but we don't know what it is. But we're very skeptical of someone who tells us that they can do it.

Hal Puthoff 43:13 And that's, that's reasonable to, to think that way.

Joe Rogan 43:15 Right.

Hal Puthoff 43:15 And so in this case where we got permission to publish something, since we were engineers, Russell Targ, my colleague, and I are, you know, engineers and physicists. We wrote it up for the, uh, proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. This is an engineering journal where we had published technical papers, so we said, "Well, we have a better chance there." Sent it off to them. The editor was head of communications at Bell Labs, and he comes back and says, "Well, (smacks lips) I don't, I don't know." And we said, "Why? Are you getting bad reviews?" And he says, "Well, actually I'm getting good reviews, but one really heavy hitter just gave me a one-sentence review saying, 'This is the kind of thing I wouldn't believe in even if it were true.'" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:01 What does that mean?

Hal Puthoff 44:02 (laughs) So anyway, we said, "Look, look. I, I, I know, I understand your problem."

Joe Rogan 44:07 Heavy hitters are long.

Hal Puthoff 44:08 "Look, let us come and present this stuff to your engineers. If they throw tomatoes, okay, don't publish our paper. But if they like it, then, then publish it." So we went to Bell Labs, presented our data. The engineers were all excited, trying to figure out what the mechanism could be and so on, so we figured we were home free. He said, "No, I, I, I still..." So then we pull out our trump card, as always, which is, "Okay, look. Do your own experiments at Bell Labs. Pick people from your engineers. Pick people from your offices to be, to make up lists of targets. Pick people here to be your blind match group to see if they can match them up. And if you get results like we got, then publish it. If you don't, don't." He said, "Okay, that's, that- that's fair." So it turns out he did the whole thing, got the same kinda results we got. Our paper got published 1976 Proceedings of the IEEE. And so that suddenly got other people saying, "Okay, well maybe there really is something to this." So it turns out that, for those who follow the field know that Robert John and Brenda Dunn ... Robert John was, uh, head of engineering at, uh, Princeton. He had a student who wanted him to do these kind of experiments and he thought it was nonsense, but they came out and heard our briefing and he went back. Long story short, he set up a, I don't know, 20-year program, uh, completely replicating our remote viewing work and also doing, uh, effects on random number generators that were quantum driven. And so, so the so-called PEAR Lab, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab, replicated all of our work, and so pretty soon it, it, it's all over the place. (coughs) So by the way, at the end of the, uh, sort of Cold War there where there was a detente, some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote viewers and they traded war stories. They, they, uh, lived through the same kind of, s- kind of thing. So there it is.

Joe Rogan 46:24 It's so interesting that we almost didn't consider that. Just imagine you not running into Ingo Swann, you not asking him to affect that quantum chip. Imagine where Russia's doing all this stuff and the United States never gets involved in it at all. That, that could have happened.

Hal Puthoff 46:44 That could have happened. I mean, it was really, you know, the tiniest flip of a coin that, that that happened. So, so what that means is, uh, for me personally, is that even though I had no interest in, in all that kinda stuff, this totally random event happened, and then once I built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible, then that's why, uh, when the UAP, the UFO issue, uh, kind of rose up again, who you gonna call? So (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 47:16 Hal Putnam.

Hal Puthoff 47:17 Hal Putnam. There, I get my call.

Joe Rogan 47:19 So what was the initial introduction to the UAP phenomenon? And when was this?

Hal Puthoff 47:26 Well, there was an early introduction in, uh, 2004. Uh, well, may- maybe a little earlier in, in the '90s. I was doing, uh, work for Robert Bigelow at Bigelow Aerospace and, uh, in addition to his, you know, aerospace stuff, he put two units, uh, circling the Earth and he made the, uh, uh, module that got attached to the Space Station and all that kinda stuff. But he was also very much interested in UFOs and that kinda thing. And so, I was, I was, uh, you know, involved with him. And around that time, I had gotten a call from somebody I knew in Washington DC, head of a think tank. Uh, I c- can't name him, but he said, uh, "I need you to come to Washington to be part of a little project, a little briefing." And I said, "No. I don't have the time." (laughs) "Right now, I'm just, I'm just too busy." He says, "Look. Come and it'll be the most important meeting you've ever had in your life." Well-... since I had him calibrated, because I had done other work with him in, uh, for the navy and so on, I said, "Okay. I'll, I'll, I'll come," so. So I showed up there and I saw people, some of whom I knew, including my ex-contract monitor from CIA, people from DIA, uh, a lot of military people, and so on. So he sat us all down and said, "Okay. Here's the deal. Here's why I've invited you all here. Let's just say," he says, "that United States, Russia, and China have obtained, hm, ET craft that have crashed and we have proof of that, bodies that aren't human, and so the question is can this be released to the public? What effect would it have?" So I, and, and the other people, I found out by talking to them later, we thought, "Oh, this is cool." I mean, "Maybe we can get, you know, some kind of disclosure here." And, uh, so he said, "Here's, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna make up a list of what would be affected in the culture with this kind of a disclosure." And by the way, at this point, we still didn't know, is, is he saying that that's true stuff or is he, this is a hypothetical? Or anyway.

Joe Rogan 50:26 Right.

Hal Puthoff 50:26 So anyway. "Make a list." So we came up with a long list, like, I don't know, 60 items or something. You say, "Oh, wow. Uh, stock market might be affected-"

Joe Rogan 50:34 Religion.

Hal Puthoff 50:35 ... "religious might be affected." Um, you know, whatever.

Joe Rogan 50:40 Government.

Hal Puthoff 50:41 Government af- affected. Policies'd be affected. Uh, Brit- you know, politics would certainly be affected. And then for each item, we had to go sk- give it a score from plus nine to minus nine as to how intense the effect would be, and whether it's positive or negative. So then we broke up into groups and our group had our list of eight or so. And so we went down our list and it turned out that we ended up saying, getting, uh, net negative numbers. And let, let me, let me tell you why you, you can get negative numbers. One of the things down toward the bottom of the list, when we really got into the weeds, was, "Well, suppose materials from a crash retrieval of a non-human craft was given to corporation A, but corporation B didn't get any samples."

Joe Rogan 51:39 Mm.

Hal Puthoff 51:39 "And then years later, corporation A is making lots of money based on what they got. Meanwhile, corporation B has gone bankrupt and, and then they find out they were excluded."

Joe Rogan 51:50 Mm.

Hal Puthoff 51:50 "Well, they're gonna end up suing the corporations, suing the government." I mean, it really gets gnarly when you get, get into the weeds and into the details. And so as it turns out, with our group of eight or so, we said, "You know, this, this, we'd get a negative number." Well, it turned out that all the groups got negative numbers. So the outcome of that exercise was if you're thinking about disclosure, forget it. It's...

Joe Rogan 52:14 Was this during George Herbert Walker Bush's...

Hal Puthoff 52:17 No. It was during Bush II.

Joe Rogan 52:19 Bush II. Ge- George Bush, rather.

Hal Puthoff 52:21 George Bush. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:22 W.

Hal Puthoff 52:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:23 Um, so when this was all going on, you still didn't know what they had?

Hal Puthoff 52:31 Didn't know what they had. Yeah, it's like-

Joe Rogan 52:32 This was just... You, you were saying-

Hal Puthoff 52:34 This could be apathetical or he could be trying to tell us something.

Joe Rogan 52:38 Right.

Hal Puthoff 52:38 But he wouldn't say, so.

Joe Rogan 52:39 Interesting. And how long... How much time did they give you to compile this list and to generate these numbers of plus and minus?

Hal Puthoff 52:45 Uh, it was two or three days. I, I don't, uh, recall right now.

Joe Rogan 52:49 How did you attribute numbers to things like the stock market? How did you figure out how that would be negatively or positively impacted?

Hal Puthoff 52:56 Well, you know, it w- it was just a gut response, basically. Uh...

Joe Rogan 53:00 You remote viewed it? (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 53:02 (laughs) No. No. Didn't do that.

Joe Rogan 53:03 No. But did you?

Hal Puthoff 53:04 By the way, in the remote viewing program, one of the things they told us, "Look, you guys that are running this program, don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself. We learned in the LSD days that if the experimenters get involved in the subject they're researching, they lose their objectivity. And don't think you can sneak away and get away with it, because we'll get you on the polygraph." And so, so no, never, never did, remote-

Joe Rogan 53:29 Don't remote view yourself? (laughs) What, what a bizarre thing to tell someone.

Hal Puthoff 53:33 Yeah, that's what they, that's what they said.

Joe Rogan 53:35 Yeah.

Hal Puthoff 53:35 So, so anyway. But anyway, back, back to this. Um, we... So we came up with our numbers and, and said, "You know, this does not look like a good idea." So at that time, that, that was the viewpoint. Now, as we'll get into, at this point, I have a different viewpoint. I think there should be more disclosure than, than, uh, is apparent in, in the culture.

Joe Rogan 53:57 Well, I think that's, that's much more common.

Hal Puthoff 54:01 Much more common. Right.

Joe Rogan 54:02 That thought is more, more common with not just academics, but even government people.

Hal Puthoff 54:07 Even government people. Right.

Joe Rogan 54:08 I think more-

Hal Puthoff 54:08 In fact, I have a, I have a great example of that.

Joe Rogan 54:11 Please.

Hal Puthoff 54:11 And that is, uh, Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, uh, involved in the Manhattan Project. You'd think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about national security, it would be him. But one of the strongest statements he made, which actually was kind of a driver in my shifting my viewpoint about, "Well, should we come out with this or not?" He said, "You know, in exploring, uh, nuclear energy, we had the Manhattan Project, highly classified, but nonetheless, we and the Russians kind of marched along step by step."But in electronics, we didn't classify electronics, s- you know, circuit boards and all that kind of stuff. And we took off like a rocket and left Rus- Russia in the dust. So his viewpoint was that having more openness, even in national security areas, is- is the better bet.

Joe Rogan 55:10 Mm.

Hal Puthoff 55:10 And so that made me think even though I'd been part of, as it turns out, s- decades long, highly classified, not for the street UAP investigations, uh, that- that sort of affected my thinking about it. And I became more, uh, open to the idea that, uh, you know, we should do that. So- but the way, uh, the way I- I got actually more officially involved was that (clears throat) as it turns out in

Hal Puthoff 55:40 2008 I think it was, Harry Reid, who was at the time Senate majority leader, uh, Daniel Inouye from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from Alaska, uh, they're part of the gang of eight so-called, so they get better briefings than most people on what's going on beyond the scenes. So at that point you might think, (laughs) "Well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's all dead." Let me give you a little background first. And that is, you know, back in the '50s and '60s we had Project Sign, Project Grudge, pro- Project Blue Book. And then they had the Condon Committee at University of Colorado examine the area and say, uh, he came out with this thing saying, uh, that there's nothing here. It's not- not worth the Air Force spending any time on it. Actually, the Condon report if you read it, there's a deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real. And then there's the foreword which most media read in which he said, "Oh, n- nothing here. Don't worry about it." So after 1969, which is when that report came out, if you called, uh, Air Force, uh, public affairs office and said, "Well, what's going on with UFOs?" They: "Oh, no, no. We gave up all that stuff, uh, back in 1969." The truth of the matter is that the very memo that canceled Blue Book by General Bolinder, um, had down the fine print, but anything that might affect national security, we should keep track of. So- so now we come up to, you know, 2017, these senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there should be a new program. And so they asked, uh, the top physicists at DIA, Jim Lacatski, uh, who is one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry and so on, to put out a request for proposal. And so that went out, and so actually Robert Bigelow picked it up. And he said, "Okay. We'll- we'll do this." And so, uh, he then got the program. And since I'd been involved with Bigelow, he asked me to be part of the program. So that's when I got, you might say, officially involved in- in really digging into the- the issue.

Joe Rogan 58:16 And what was your perspective at that point? So you w- you had this thing during the George Bush administration, and b- what was your perspective after that conversation? Did you think w- maybe they do have something, the crashed Roswell site, maybe something else? Did you know more from oth- talking to other people? Had you heard whispers? Like, what did you know?

Hal Puthoff 58:40 What I knew was not much. I mean, uh, I heard whispers, uh, but I didn't get, you know, really involved in- in thinking about it. I mean s- you know, a good physicist realizes this is tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:57 But you had already had experience with remote viewing seemingly being nonsense as well.

Hal Puthoff 59:00 Yeah, so I'm already- I've already got that problem. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:02 Right. (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 59:05 So, uh, but when they came up with the idea we should do another deeper dive into this, and by that time I was, uh, you know... I mean, as a physicist, I mean, through the years, I mean, I- I was a Star Trek fan and a, you know, just a Star Trek fan and all that kinda stuff. And, uh, as a physicist, uh, I would hear about these UFO sightings and so on. So I always wondered about, you know, how- how- how can this, uh, you know, could somebody really have any kind of propulsion that- that would look like that? And so anyway, uh, so when this program got set up, it turned out my particular assignment was, okay, let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this stuff, and by the way, we will arrange for you to get access to some materials. Uh, okay. Fine. So that- that was my tasking. And so I said, "Okay." So I can't get into a lot of detail, but I did, uh, do a lot of, uh, back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case they had any materials and that kind of stuff, uh, it's very... So they finally said, "No, it's- it's, uh, if that were the case, it'd be too compartmentalized. We- we- we can't share this. Even though you have an official program, I mean, you got top secret, SCI, gamma, HCS, got all these clearances, but..."... if we had materials, it'd be too highly classified. We, we, we couldn't share them.

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 Geez.

Hal Puthoff 1:00:56 So, a lot of negotiation went on, and I mean, I spent a lot of time-

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 Well, you don't negotiate-

Hal Puthoff 1:00:59 ... with the Vice President and everybody.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 ... unless there's something to negotiate about.

Hal Puthoff 1:01:03 Exactly, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 If there was nothing to negotiate about, you didn't say how. Uh, we don't have materials.

Hal Puthoff 1:01:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 You wouldn't say, "You don't have enough clearance for us to even discuss this."

Hal Puthoff 1:01:12 Exactly. And so-

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 They're already, they're tipping their hat.

Hal Puthoff 1:01:15 They're already tipping their hat. So, anyway, the second, uh, place to go then was, okay, they're not gonna share their materials. I'm gonna almost assuredly have them. Um, suppose they had shared them, what would we have done? Well, we would've gone to subject matter experts all around the world. We'd give them some materials. We'd say, you know, "This came from a Russian sub," or, you know, whatever. "Give us your best output," and so on. So, I said, "Okay, since we're not able to sh- get materials and share them, um, let me go to all of the subject matter experts that we would have gone to and say, 'We're doing a survey for Bigelow Aerospace.' He wants to know, 'Where will your field be in the year 2050?'" So, we figured, okay, we'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures for their fields. And, and, uh, I realize you probably don't, uh, have immediate access to this, but just to give you an idea, some of the papers that we got by going after these people, I mean, and you'll see how serious we were, aneutronic fusion propulsion, superconductors and gravity research, positron aerospace propulsion, warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, advanced nuclear propulsion.

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 Jamie's got it up here.

Hal Puthoff 1:02:56 Yeah. So, so this is just the first few of 38 papers that I, uh, arranged for leaders to, to come up with.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 So, this is based on projections from where technology currently sits to-

Hal Puthoff 1:03:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:13 ... if you extrapolate where it's gonna be in 2050-

Hal Puthoff 1:03:16 In 2050, right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 ... based on what they're working on?

Hal Puthoff 1:03:18 Right. So, I-

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 Space time metric engineering, traversable wormholes, stargates.

Hal Puthoff 1:03:24 So, you see, we weren't, uh, kidding around. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 (laughs) Well, when you started getting into warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, brain-machine interfaces.

Hal Puthoff 1:03:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Now, did you ask any of these ... So, presumably, this is just me from a civilian's perspective. Presumably, you have some sort of a crash thing. You have to bring in people who make spaceships.

Hal Puthoff 1:03:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 You have to bring in people who make military jets, advanced propulsion systems.

Hal Puthoff 1:03:56 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 That's, those are the people that would be able to back and-

Hal Puthoff 1:04:00 And the peop- and the people we had, uh, working on those papers were people from those communities.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 How did they ch- but this is the ad- the conundrum that if they did disclose and the companies that weren't given access to these materials did fall apart, and that the companies that got access to these materials advanced and had, uh, spectacular businesses, how do they decide who, uh, uh ... Just assuming you would have something, how would you decide? Was it based on relationships, like knowing that someone could keep a secret? Like, 'cause you're dealing with outside the government now.

Hal Puthoff 1:04:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:35 Presumably, if you, if you have a defense contractor, they're ... That's an independent company.

Hal Puthoff 1:04:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 So, not necessarily, even though they work hand-in-glove with the con- the government, they're not necessarily a part of the government. So what?

Hal Puthoff 1:04:49 So, in fact, if you put your thinking cap on, you would say, okay, this would be the way if you wanna keep it out of the public.

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 'Cause you don't have to disclose it.

Hal Puthoff 1:05:01 Yeah, you don't have to give it to a contractor.

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 Right.

Hal Puthoff 1:05:03 Say, "Okay, this is, this is your stuff, and, uh, from now on, you own it."

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 But how do you control that, though? You d- you'd have to have government agents embedded deeply in that, which I assume they do anyway, but you'd have to have intelligence agents deep ... Well, I hope they do, deeply embedded in these defense contractors where they would make sure that they maintain some sort of intense level of secrecy.

Hal Puthoff 1:05:30 That's exactly right, and, uh, when you think about, okay, uh, these days, well, suppose we have some kind of disclosure, uh, (clears throat) what are these companies gonna do? They've been hiding things or various parts of the government been hiding things. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 Misappropriating funds, lying to Congress.

Hal Puthoff 1:05:50 Misappropriating funds, lying to Congress. So, it's ... You can see why it's such-

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Yeah.

Hal Puthoff 1:05:54 ... a big problem at this point.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 Well, that was that, um, Disclosure documentary that, uh, I saw you in as well that appeared at, uh, SXSW, which was excellent.

Hal Puthoff 1:06:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 What is it called again?

Hal Puthoff 1:06:05 It's called, uh, The Age of Disclosure, and-

Joe Rogan 1:06:07 Amazing documentary.

Hal Puthoff 1:06:08 It's an amazing documentary.

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 I really hope that gets released somewhere big, like Netflix or something like that, so people can see it.

Hal Puthoff 1:06:13 Ah, well, I think, uh, I think Dan Farah, who's the, uh, director and producer of that ... By the way, a very well-known producer, you know, he, he collaborated with Steven Spielberg on Ready Player One-

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 Right.

Hal Puthoff 1:06:27 ... which was a big hit and so on. And the approach he used, which was really very clever, uh, he contacted people like me, people, uh, like Lou Elizondo, on and on and on, and, uh, said, "You know, many of you don't wanna come out really and reveal too much podcast by podcast by podcast. So, tell you what-"... "My goal," he says, "I'm gonna approach 38 of the maximum insiders. And by maximum insiders, I mean, it includes people like, I don't know, Senator Rubio, of course now Secretary of State, um, Clapper who's, you know... And I'm gonna get all of you to collaborate on saying what your involvement was," to the degree you can and, you know, not say something and ended up going to jail. "And, uh, and then we'll put out maximum disclosure evidence all at one time in this film, and it'll include, uh, people coming forward like, uh, Jay Stratton, who is head of the UAP task force. Uh, he's been involved in this field for 16 years. By the way, he has a book about to come out also which will really be a, a disclosure." So anyways, "We'll put this together. We won't talk about it along the way." And so 38 of us ended up being interviewed for the film. Um, telling whatever role we felt we could tell. So in fact when that film comes out that, that's gonna be disclosure on steroids, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 Mm.

Hal Puthoff 1:08:16 That's gonna be the maximum. And well, you saw the film, so you know it's, it's pretty, pretty revealing.

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 It's very well done.

Hal Puthoff 1:08:23 Yeah, very well done.

Joe Rogan 1:08:24 So for your own personal journey into this stuff, you were initially introduced to it because they're talking about disclosure. You rate the pros and cons. And then when do you get introduced to it again?

Hal Puthoff 1:08:38 Well, that was when basically when Robert Bigelow, uh, got the contract that, uh, Harry Reid and the other senators, uh, asked to-

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 And how many- how much time has passed?

Hal Puthoff 1:08:50 Well, that was in 2008.

Joe Rogan 1:08:55 So a couple...

Hal Puthoff 1:08:56 And so that went up through 2012. And then AATIP, which you may have heard of...

Joe Rogan 1:09:05 Mm-hmm.

Hal Puthoff 1:09:05 ... that Lue Elizondo ran.

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 Yeah.

Hal Puthoff 1:09:06 And, uh, sort of picked up there to keep the ball rolling forward. And now it's been revealed, by the way, uh, only, only recently that when the funding dried up, it dried up for the reasons you might think of. And that is it was so highly classified that when congressional statements came down that, "Okay, we need so much money for this," it didn't actually describe, it was just advanced propulsion and all that kind of stuff. So another group picked up the money and said, "Oh, well, that's what, we're working on propulsion things, so..." You know, but it wasn't the real deal. And so, you know, what do you do at that point? Do you go, "No, wait a minute. This was really for this." Well, no, then you'd be re- revealing what this was really for. So, so anyway, that sort of, uh, ended that way. But anyway, so based on that, we then as a group went to, as it t- turns out, the Department of Homeland Security to set up a whole new program. And, uh, it was going to be a special access program. It was under a name which can now be revealed because AARO, the Advanced Aerospace, or let's see, Advanced Anomalies Aerospace Resolution Office has revealed it. It was called Kona Blue. And, uh, we built up a stack of documents that would go to the ceiling here about what needed to be done, what we were gonna do, how it should be done, who should be involved, uh, all that-

Joe Rogan 1:10:43 So at this point, you're convinced that this is a real phenomenon?

Hal Puthoff 1:10:46 At this point I'm convinced that there's real phenomena. I mean, you know, how far can I go? I mean, I can, uh, I can say I interacted with, for example, Dave Grusch that you've had on your program before who is really a high level intelligence officer. People in the public can hardly have any idea how high a level intelligence officer he was. He prepared briefings for the president. He was a top UAP investigator for NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office, and then transferred over to NGA, National Geospatial-Intelligence Office, and so on. And so in that role he was asked, he was an official part of the UAP task force asked by Jay Stratton to find out what's going on behind the scenes at these super classified levels, and he did. And, uh, so that's why, you know, he eventually came out in that, uh, August 2023-

Joe Rogan 1:11:50 Hmm.

Hal Puthoff 1:11:51 ... congressional hearing under oath saying, "Yep, I've talked to more than 40 people who are directly involved in the program." Well, I know Dave. I know many of the people. I know many of the programs that, uh, he's involved in. And so there really is something to it, and, uh, it's only a matter of time before it comes out. I don't think, I don't think you can put the toothpaste back into the tube, frankly.

Joe Rogan 1:12:17 Well, it seems like people don't want to. Uh, and I think there's so many more people that are openly discussing the possibility or what this is. Maybe not even the possibility of it, but, but addressing that there's something going on. So what is it? Is it inter-dimensional? Is it inter-galactic? Like, what is it?

Hal Puthoff 1:12:38 That's- that's just such an excellent question, 'cause the problem is there's an embarrassment of riches. These craft, you know, which in the old days, you know, farmer in the fields that someone streaking across the sky and, you know, I don't know what to think. You know, you could sort of blow it off. But because our own...... detection equipment has really marched up into unbelievable sophistication. Uh, and so now we have these really advanced sensor systems, uh, FLIR, forward-looking infrared radar, high-quality radars, satellites. Ratcliffe has admintion- has, has admitted that satellites have picked up, uh, uh, evidence of these, of these craft. And these craft have interfered with, uh, military exercises, as we all know from, uh, say, uh, the Nimitz and the Kimball and the Go Fast videos that, you know, made it out into the public in, in 2017. Uh, (coughs) so it's, it's really out there now at this point that there, that there's, that there's a reality here. And so, uh, that's where we are at this point.

Joe Rogan 1:14:01 Well, one of the more spectacular ones, you, um, talked about the Nimitz, the, the Commander David Fravor experience.

Hal Puthoff 1:14:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:14:08 So they're flying over the water outs- outside of San Diego.

Hal Puthoff 1:14:13 Outside San Diego, right.

Joe Rogan 1:14:13 And they think they see something below the surface and which is large, and then this 20-foot Tic Tac-looking thing that's hovering over the water that seems to turn towards them and recognize that they're, uh, i- it jams their radar. It does something to block their ability to detect it. They have it on screen. They have video of this thing. There's eyewitnesses of this thing. They track it on radar going from above 50,000 feet down to sea level in a second. They-

Hal Puthoff 1:14:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:14:49 ... they don't know what it is. It takes off at an insane rate of speed. It goes to the CAP point where they were supposed to meet up.

Hal Puthoff 1:14:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:57 So they have all this data about this thing that behaves in a way that's impossible with our current understanding of propulsion systems.

Hal Puthoff 1:15:05 Right. And, of course, in the program, we interviewed, uh, the pilots about their experiences and so on. And, and so you can't blame a pilot. He says, "Look, this thing was at, you know, 80,000 feet or whatever when we first detected it. Suddenly, it's down there right above the water, and then it takes off and does a right angle turn at mach three." Uh, you know, this stuff is just way beyond our physics. Of course, to a physics nerd like me, so, "Yeah, now wait a minute. If it's real, it's physics," so... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15:35 Right, it's not-

Hal Puthoff 1:15:36 Can't, can't be beyond our phys-

Joe Rogan 1:15:37 It's probably beyond our understanding.

Hal Puthoff 1:15:38 But it's beyond our engineering. So in fact, in that series of, uh, papers I showed you that, uh, the 30, 38 papers, by the way, um, there's a little side story there which is interesting. And those 38 papers were then posted... None, none of these people who generated those papers had any idea it had to do with ETs or UFOs or whatever. Uh, they all went up on what's called the JWICS server, it's a classified server for the Pentagon, and, uh, intelligence officers and aerospace contractors, uh, you know, could get access, but n- nobody in the public could. And usually, those things go up and they're up for, you know, a little while, an- a month or so, and they take them down. This was such a popular set, these 38 papers, such a popular set, that everybody screamed every time they tried to take it down. And so it was posted there f- you know, like, forever. Uh, but eventually, uh, through Freedom of Information Act and so on, most of those papers have, have, have, uh, been released. And I w- I was concerned that, oh my God, these guys are all gonna call me up and say, "What? You didn't tell me this had anything to do with ETs or UFOs or..." But actually, no- nobody seemed to, uh, you know, not, not complain about it. So back to the question that you mentioned a little earlier though about, you know, what's the source of this? Like I said-

Joe Rogan 1:17:03 Okay.

Hal Puthoff 1:17:03 ... it's an embarrassment of riches. There's so much observation. Uh, you know, the idea that maybe a scout coming by from some other planet and checking us out and heading off, uh, or whatever. I mean, there, there's much more than that. And of course, as you know from interviewing Jacques Vallée, he dug into literature and found out, you know, you can go back millennia and see descriptions of exactly what we're-

Joe Rogan 1:17:32 Right.

Hal Puthoff 1:17:32 ... talking about today. So (clears throat) as, as far as where they come from or what they're doing here, I myself have written a paper called Ultra-Terrestrials, where I try to cover the gamut. And I cover everything. Yeah, they could be spacecraft from some other galaxy whipping through here, uh, (clears throat) or maybe there's some Atlanteans left over from eons ago and they're just kind of hiding out in the seabed or on some mountain range someplace. Or maybe some ET group, uh, showed up here 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 years ago and they're hiding out with some bases locally and so on. Uh, and of course, we have a fellow by the name of, a professor by the name of Masters who, who thinks that, well, maybe it's, uh, time travelers from the future coming back. And then there's the whole idea, since physicists like to talk about inter- additional dimensions, you know, maybe they come from another... So anyway, then in my Ultra-Terrestrials paper, I list everyone I can think of and say, you know, "We should be exploring all of these." So at this point, I would say we know it's NHI, non-human intelligence, but it's not clear what the source is. Maybe at a higher level of, uh, classification than I had access to, maybe it's, it's known. But right now, I, I'd say we, we, we don't, don't really know.

Joe Rogan 1:19:04 Do you have a suspicion?

Hal Puthoff 1:19:07 (coughs) ... I guess my suspicion that it's likely non-human intelligence from some other galaxy or far out in our own galaxy that have come here, (coughs) but some time back, and that there are stations here. Uh, you know, I mean, one of our remote viewers that was, that was really good came up one day and said, uh, "I was looking around and, and I think I found a UFO base on Earth." (coughs) This was during the remote viewing era and, uh, you know, oh my God, I've, I've got to report this to my CIA contract monitor and do I want to tell him that? And so I did. And the pla- one of the places he came up with some, but one of the places he came up with was, uh, Mount Zeal in Australia. And so my con- CIA contract monitor says, "Well, I know the station keeper, or CIA station keeper out in Australia. I think I'll call him and, uh, I won't tell him why I'm asking, but I'll ask him about Mount Zeal area." So he gave him a call and he said, uh, "I'd like to ask you about that Mount Zeal area." He says, "Oh, you mean where the UFOs were always flying around?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:20:37 Whoa.

Hal Puthoff 1:20:37 So I thought, "Oh, gee," you know? (clears throat) So I, anyway, I ... This was from Pat Price, I, I take him seriously. Let me give you an anecdote. I mean, it, I know it's hard to believe that this s- some of this stuff could possibly be real, but here was the real game changer for me. One day, Pat Price, during the remote viewing program, came in the office and he said, uh, "I got bored last night. So I started looking around and I decided to look at the Oval Office. And as I kind of did my way around the Oval Office, I realized there's something in the Oval Office that will harm him, and he will not get through his second term." And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh my God," you know? "I have to report that to the CIA contract monitor?" Which, which I did. And so they sent a team over looking for, you know, hidden microwaves, hidden toxic substances and well, they didn't come up with anything. Of course, we now know from history, it was the tape recorder that did him in, and he couldn't make it through his second term because he-

Joe Rogan 1:21:49 So this was during the Nixon administration?

Hal Puthoff 1:21:51 Yeah, the Nixon administration.

Joe Rogan 1:21:53 Wow.

Hal Puthoff 1:21:53 And so interestingly enough, when he reported that to us, said, "Oh my God, that means, um, Spiro Agnew will be president," because he was the vice president. And he says, "No, he goes first." Now, it turned out he did go first because of some money laundering scheme. So when I sit down and try to say, "Okay, what are the statistics of having somebody see that a president isn't gonna make it through his next term and his vice president is not gonna take over 'cause he goes first?" I mean, the odds of that, I mean, there's just no doubt that that, that means there's really something, there-

Joe Rogan 1:22:30 Well, especially when you consider Nixon was one of the most popularly elected presidents ever.

Hal Puthoff 1:22:37 Yeah. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:37 I mean, he won by an enormous margin.

Hal Puthoff 1:22:40 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:41 That was the whole, where the vice president, uh, or the o- the other, uh, candidate's vice president had electroshock therapy that hadn't been revealed.

Hal Puthoff 1:22:49 Oh, I remember that. Yeah. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:50 Yeah. And it turned out people were very concerned that he was mentally ill, w- it was too late to replace him and they didn't know what to do. They finally replaced him but it was too late.

Hal Puthoff 1:23:00 That's right. I me-

Joe Rogan 1:23:01 Yeah.

Hal Puthoff 1:23:01 I remember that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:02 Yeah. That was a big part of the whole thing. So-

Hal Puthoff 1:23:06 Now, one thing you may be surprised to learn, you've, you've, you've asked me from time to time, well, you know, what did I think as I'm facing into all this stuff. (clears throat) We, obviously as physicists, think about time going forward reasonable way. And as I mentioned, the Princeton lab got involved. Uh, Robert John at Princeton was, um, very good in quantum theory and so on, and he knows that in quantum theory, time is kind of a slippery slope. Uh, you know, we have the spacetime metric and the possibility of maybe seeing something in the future or something in the past. And so he did a series of remote viewing experiments very much like, like what we were doing, but sometimes he would have somebody go to a site and then wait a week and have somebody describe where the person went. Or he might have somebody describe where a person went, but the person didn't go until a week later. And so he did a lot of experiments, which by the way, were good enough. He also got it published in the proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers a couple years after our paper, like '78 or so. And so it, it turned out that the results either looking a bit into the future, a bit into the past, didn't, uh, the results were just as good. (clears throat) So that sort of helped solve another problem for us, because we were always, uh ... I mean, I can't blame the skeptics coming forward. In fact, in fact our, our favorite phrase is, as far as remote viewing goes, there are two outcomes. People who investigate it know it works, people who don't and know it can't. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:24:57 (laughs) Yeah.

Hal Puthoff 1:24:57 And that's sort of it. So anyway, you know, a big thing that we always got pushed on was, "Well, if these people are so psychic, why aren't they rich?"

Joe Rogan 1:25:05 Right.

Hal Puthoff 1:25:05 "Why aren't they at Las Vegas? Why aren't they-"

Joe Rogan 1:25:08 Right.

Hal Puthoff 1:25:08 "... doing silver futures or whatever?" So, well, it turned out I had a chance to test that.... because, um, as it turns out, my wife, uh, Adrienne Kennedy, was, uh, on the board of, uh, a new grammar school that was being set up in the Bay Area, where we were at the time. And, uh, (clears throat) so, I, uh, was trying to raise money 'cause they were about $25,000 short. And so, uh, I, uh, went to a wealthy dentist I knew of and said, uh, you know, "Would you mind giving $25,000 for this school that's j- just being set up? We're short." He says, "Now, wait a minute. I know who you are. You have that ESP program over at SRI, don't you?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Tell you what, I do silver futures. If you can get your ESP people to tell me what's happening each day, the next day in silver futures, I will follow what you tell me and, uh, l- and I'll bet on it and see if I make money based on that. And tell you what, whatever money I get, I'll give your school 10% of what I make. And don't worry, if I lose money, I won't charge you." So, so anyway, that, that was interesting. Well, by now in the program, we recognize that okay, there's the bell curves, sort of anybody can do it to some degree. So, I simply went to the board of directors of the school and, uh, said, um, "We're gonna go into silver futures to make our missing $25,000. But I'm not gonna ask you what you think the market's gonna do the next day, 'cause that'll depend on what you've read or what you hope for or whatever, whatever, whatever. We're gonna do something different. I'm gonna pick a couple of objects, objects that are very different from each other. I'm gonna label one of them 'mark it up,' I'm gonna label the other one 'mark it down.' And I want you to describe to me today the object I'm gonna show you tomorrow, which will depend on what the market does." And so, uh, okay. And for a crash course, I gave them this, uh, shortened version of how, you know, don't, don't try to image it, just try to get ... It's a visceral thing. How do you feel about it? What's the sort of texture of it? And so on. And, uh, Jamie, can you, can you pull up that, uh, first of the ... It shows the, um, sk- the fig- wooden figurine and the, uh, tape measure. If you could show that, yeah. So, on a given day, f- I have two objects, and of course they're different as they can be, in case you get a lousy description or whatever. So, on a given day, that's a couple of objects I picked out, and I labeled the one ... To myself, I labeled the one on the left "mark it up," the one on the right, "mark it down." A- (clears throat) but they have no idea what my objects are.

Joe Rogan 1:28:21 Right.

Hal Puthoff 1:28:22 So, the next day, if you get a following slide-

Joe Rogan 1:28:26 Uh, that's the last slide.

Hal Puthoff 1:28:30 Do you have the following slide? Um ...

Joe Rogan 1:28:32 I have a, I have a previous slide.

Hal Puthoff 1:28:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28:34 Is that it? Is that what you're looking for?

Hal Puthoff 1:28:37 That's it, okay. And so, uh, I had seven viewers and, on this particular day, five of them didn't turn out much. But one of the viewers said, "I've got something all squirreled up in a can, all wound around, and I hear the words 'one, two, three' said rhythmically."

Joe Rogan 1:28:56 Tapered, a tape measure.

Hal Puthoff 1:28:57 (laughs) The second guy, same thing. A can, all, something all around it. So, that's what I go with.

Joe Rogan 1:29:02 Interesting.

Hal Puthoff 1:29:03 Anyway, make a long story short, 30 days in the market, we made $260,000 for the investor. We got our 10%, which is $26,000, so we got a bit of a bonus there for the school.

Joe Rogan 1:29:15 Why didn't you guys keep going and get rich?

Hal Puthoff 1:29:17 (laughs) Well that, I know, everybody asks me that. The truth of the matter, it was, it was almost a 24-hour-a-day job to do this. And meanwhile, we're back over at the lab training army intelligence remote viewers how to, how to remote view. So, uh ...

Joe Rogan 1:29:34 Clearly, that wasn't your ambition. You're, your, your ambition-

Hal Puthoff 1:29:36 That just wasn't my ambition.

Joe Rogan 1:29:36 ... was not to get rich.

Hal Puthoff 1:29:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29:37 But you proved your point.

Hal Puthoff 1:29:38 I proved my point, so ...

Joe Rogan 1:29:40 So now, when (laughs) y- going into the future, you're, you're reasonably certain that these things, this is a real phenomenon. Do you ever get access to these materials that you were discussing earlier? Did you, have you ever seen anything?

Hal Puthoff 1:29:57 Uh, yes, I have. Um, (clears throat) one example I can talk about, one sample I can talk about is, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:30:05 Are there things you can't talk about?

Hal Puthoff 1:30:07 There are things I can't talk about, right. But there's, there's one sample I can talk about, which you could put up on the screen. That would be that layer-

Joe Rogan 1:30:14 This right here? This right here?

Hal Puthoff 1:30:15 Yeah, right. Uh, turns out that (clears throat) uh, an army, uh, person said that his grandfather had been involved in picking up debris from the Roswell crash. And, and so he sent it, uh, of all places, he sent it to Art Bell.

Joe Rogan 1:30:36 (laughs)

Hal Puthoff 1:30:37 (laughs) Of the, of the-

Joe Rogan 1:30:39 The great one.

Hal Puthoff 1:30:39 ... radio podcast. The great Art Bell. (clears throat) So, Art Bell turned it over to Linda Howe, L- Lin- Linda. So she's, you know, got it and so she had, said she'd make it available and so on. So, about this time, um, I had already had my viewpoint shifted, as I say, by Ed-... uh, my ƒ ever tell her about, you know, "We should have more, uh, openness going on." And so in fact, Tom DeLonge came along and, uh, you know, the punk rock, Bleach 182, and said, uh, you know, "We sh- we sh- we should be..." By the way, this is before even things came out in the New York Times, December 2017. He says, "You know, I've