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Joe Rogan Experience #2318 - Harold "Sonny" White

Dr. Harold “Sonny” White is a physicist and aerospace engineer specializing in advanced propulsion, particularly warp drive physics. Formerly leading NASA’s Advanced Propulsion Team at Johnson Space Center, he is now the founder and CEO of Casimir, a deep-tech startup focused on developing breakthrough power-generating nanotechnology. Casimir’s innovations have the potential to transform sustainable energy on Earth and may lay the groundwork for future advancements in interstellar propulsion systems. https://www.casimirspace.com Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan This episode is brought to you by Visible. Join now at ⁠https://visible.com/rogan⁠

Harold “Sonny” WhiteguestJoe RoganhostGuest’s remote colleague/assistant (reading article/explaining tech)guest
May 8, 20252h 34mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:47

    Intro

    1. NA

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. HW

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. NA

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

    4. JR

      Joe, what's happening? How are you, sir?

    5. HW

      Hey. How's it going, Joe? Good, good.

    6. JR

      Pleasure to meet you.

    7. HW

      Yeah. Thank you for having me here today. I appreciate it, uh, so...

    8. JR

      My pleasure. Well, as soon as I saw the subject, I was like, "Oh, yeah." Like, "What are you doing?" (laughs)

    9. HW

      Right. Right. Right. Advanced power and propulsion, kinda been a passion of mine for the last 20 some odd years. I suppose if I kinda look back through, uh, the annals of my life, right? I've been thinking about advanced power and propulsion ever since I was a teenager.

    10. JR

      What do you think inspired that? Was it, uh, space missions? Was it ... Did you look at it and go, "I think we can do better"? Like, what was it?

    11. HW

      Well, you know,

  2. 0:47 – 5:18

    Growing up in DC

    1. HW

      (clears throat) I, I grew up in Washington DC, uh, and so I got a chance to spend a lot of time in the Air and Space Smithsonian. I don't know if you've ever had a chance to-

    2. JR

      No, I haven't.

    3. HW

      ... to go to that. Uh, but, uh, growing up in DC, getting a chance to go to the Air and Space Smithsonian, I got to see all these awesome examples of people working together to try and accomplish amazing things, right? And it, and it ... You, you know, might walk into the Air and Space Smithsonian, you just think about, "Wow, this is full of a bunch of stuff," but it's not just about the stuff, right? It's about the people that worked together to do all these amazing things, right? Like, uh, the Bell X-1 rocket. I mean, if you really wanna go back, the Wright Flyer, right? That's, that's something where two guys worked together that made bicycles for a living that decided to go create something that flew. And then-

    4. JR

      (clears throat)

    5. HW

      ... in less than 50, you know, s- 50, 60 years from when they flew that, uh, Wright Flyer, right? We're putting human beings on the, the surface of the moon. And so, all that really resonated with me as a kid, and I think tended to make me gravitate towards a technical field, although it wasn't a straight line, right? I, I, I-

    6. JR

      Right.

    7. HW

      ... I'd like to say, you know, I knew at an early age what my calling was and what I was gonna do, but it, uh, uh, I bounced around for a little bit until I finally got, uh, on a path that, uh, you know, I really connected with. And so, I think I knew, uh, very early on in my journey in university, right? When I was going to get my degree, um, that I wanted to work in advanced power and propulsion. And so, at that point, everything I did kinda work towards, how do I get the skills, how do I get the, the math and physics training that helps me kinda work in this domain? 'Cause I was thinking about the idea of space warps very early on, right? So ...

    8. JR

      It's amazing that you were so focused so early. What a great head start, you know? (laughs)

    9. HW

      Right.

    10. JR

      It's a huge advantage to know-

    11. HW

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      ... what you're really interested in at such an early age.

    13. HW

      There, there ... Well, there were a few speed bumps along the way. We, we, we took-

    14. JR

      Of course.

    15. HW

      ... a few detours, like, like any, like any human, right?

    16. JR

      Of course.

    17. HW

      You're like, "Uh, I don't know if I wanna do this yet," right? So ...

    18. JR

      Yeah. Well, it is pretty extraordinary if you look at that number that you said, like, from Orville Wright and Wilbur Wright to space travel.

    19. HW

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      Like, how quick that is.

    21. HW

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      Uh, I mean, and we think about in terms of ancient history, how long it took us to get to this point, and that kind of acceleration, so rapidly, inside of a lifetime, to see just world-changing events, and the internet all happening simultaneously, right?

    23. HW

      Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there's, (clears throat) there's a, there's another interesting story, right? So, uh, my background is I've got a, a PhD in Physics, uh, and a, a, a Master's in Mechanical Engineering, so both a, a scientist and an, and an engineer, so I, I have, you know, deep appreciation for both disciplines. Uh, but within the discipline of science, right? You know, we just talked about the Wright Flyer, and then going to the surface of the moon, and that's more of a, kind of an engineering story. Um, on the, on the topic of science, you know, think about E=MC². You probably heard that, or saw it on a coffee cup. Um, I think-

    24. JR

      I don't really honestly know what it means. It's a theory of relativity.

    25. HW

      It's the-

    26. JR

      I don't-

    27. HW

      ... relativity.

    28. JR

      I, I could say it to people. Like, come on, man. (laughs)

    29. HW

      Right. E=MC².

    30. JR

      But (laughs) you've asked me to actually-

  3. 5:18 – 7:12

    A paradigm shift

    1. HW

      tell you, "I can, I can, uh, I think I can hear the color blue now." Right? So ...

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. HW

      Yeah. So, anyway. The, the, uh, had the first nuclear reactor underneath a squash court in 1942, and then the Trinity test, that's the atomic bomb test, in 1945. And so, in the span of just a few decades, we go from a cute coffee-cup worthy equation to a paradigm shift in human existence, right? And that's without computers in the way we think of it. That's without machine learning and with- without AI. And so, as we continue to move forward, right? We've got ... You know, if, if you think about everything we know in physics today, general relativity and quantum mechanics are kinda the, the two bookends of everything that we know. Uh, we're gonna continue to expand our knowledge, and we will come up with new-... E=MC² kind of equations. But now, we're equipped with computers, we're equipped with machine learning, AI. And so, it's gonna be exponential growth, right? Mm-hmm. So, it'll be interesting to shee- to see how quickly we go from, "Hey, I have this new insight. Found this funny thing in a lab," to, "Wow, it changes everything, how we do everything, uh, as a, as a culture and community," right? So. So, w- ... There's several problems with the current propulsion systems, right? And the big one is, like, biological entities being able to absorb G-force. (laughs) Right? No matter- Yeah, sure. ... if you super hyper-engineer something and have it really crazy. But the things that we're seeing in the sky, the things that people describe, like Commander David Fravor- Mm-hmm. ... when he described that Tic Tac- Mm-hmm. ... that vehicle, that thing, whatever it was, that went from above 50,000 feet to sea level in a second- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ... and shot off at insane rate speeds. Biological entities can't survive that kind of G-force, we think.

  4. 7:12 – 9:15

    Human ability to take Gs

    1. HW

      (clears throat) Yeah, so I, I think in terms of, uh, uh, a human ability to take Gs, uh- Yeah, I should say human- Yeah. ... not like tardigrades could tolerate it. Da- ... R- right, right. Right. Yeah, so a, a human being can ... Well, trained, uh, human beings can take potentially up to, to nine Gs, right? On a- Have you ever done that before? Have you ever- I have not. Right, yeah, no. I did it once with the Blue Angels. Yeah. I got to seven and a half Gs. (sighs) It was bananas. That's awesome. You have to force- You have to force- I bet that was an experience, man. Oh, it was f- Oh, my ... I am so jealous. Golly, that's awesome. Mad respect for those guys, mad respect for those guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. First of all, the biggest thing when you go to that area, like, these guys are jacked. Mm-hmm. They're in, like, insane shape. Mm-hmm. Because you're literally forcing blood into your brain to tolerate the G-force. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they have to hold onto their stick, their- Yeah. ... you know, their joystick. Yeah. And they're going, "Hoop, hoop, hoop!" Yep, yep, yep. They're f- ... While they're flying- Yeah, yeah, yeah. ... going, you know, through the canyons. It's- Yeah. ... bananas. Yeah. Like, extraordinary. Yeah. So, imagine, um, a person being able to tolerate that on a regular basis and perform fine motor skill functions, like, you know, pointing and aiming and shooting, and all the crazy stuff that those guys are capable of doing, like. Being able to think, and in some cases, if they're in combat, being able to make critical decisions. You know- Oh, yeah. ... and, and in some ways, what you're talking about, uh, when you look at, uh, NASA's Astronaut Corps, right? As part of their regimen, they have to go up in T-38s on a regular basis, uh, to try and help, uh, help train with the whole, how do you make decisions, right, when your life is on the line and the time is finite, right? Right. So there's a whole aspect of this that's kinda geared towards keeping those portions of the brain, uh, trained and sharp, right? So- Right, which is the best argument for AI taking over. (laughs) Yeah, yeah. So, when, um, y- you hear about stories, um, about these fighter pilots f- finding these objects in the sky that exhibit extraordinary capabilities and don't have all the signatures of traditional propulsion systems, what is your thoughts?

  5. 9:15 – 11:57

    Agnostic

    1. HW

      Uh, generally, um, I tend to be agnostic to the topic. Um, I have a lot of friends that are extremely interested in a lot of things that are out and about, uh, in the, (clears throat) in the media and in the literature. Um, uh, but generally, I tend to be, uh, agnostic, a- and here's why. Um, in, in everything that, uh, that's, that's currently out, uh, that people talk about and highlight, uh, it's difficult for me to take, uh, to take the data and the evidence and then pull that into the work that we do in the lab with some of the, the, the different test devices we work with as we kind of explore the frontiers of where physics and propulsion might intersect. Um, it, it's hard to take that and turn that into some kind of an action plan, if you will. Mm. So I, I'm certainly aware, like David Fravor, uh, the experience that he had with, I think he calls them Tic Tacs. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, a, a, an amazing, uh, account, um, and there's multiple people that saw it, multiple platforms that saw it. Um, and so to s- ... To, to start with, right, I, I thought maybe there was a small chance that was, um ... Just like we have stealth technology, right? Where if you wanna hide a plane, uh, what if we had the ability to project something, right, through some mechanism, uh, where we could make people go where we wanted them to go, right? 'Cause I know there is, um, there's a technology that uses, like, two different lasers that triangulate a certain point in open air, and they put enough energy into a particular location that they ionize the air, and so it creates, like, a, a bright pixel. And so they use that to create three-dimensional displays that kinda look like they're just floating out in air. Now, they're not quite as big as what we saw, uh, described with the, the, the Nimitz encounter on the West Coast. Uh, so I thought for a little while maybe that might be something that we're seeing. Um- They can project plasma as well, right? Uh- Is that, is that the same thing? It's, it's the same thing, right. Same thing? So the, the two lasers intersect. They ionize the air, which creates a plasma, like I said. And they can do this over long distances as well, right? The ... I, I don't know about long distances. I know they can do it over short distances. Okay. And so that ... To ... For a while there, I wondered if that might be something that, that could explain some of what, uh- That makes sense. ... what David Fravor and the, and the group saw. Um- The only problem would be the radar 'cause I don't know if ... You wouldn't pick up that on radar, would you? Ye- 'Cause it's not a mass, right? So the ... Well, the, the plasma would certainly, uh, absorb a radar signal, right? 'Cause it's gonna, uh, it's gonna polarize any electromagnetic wave that tries to go through it. So it would show up? It, it might, it might, it might. Um, let- Would it be possible to make something that big, that's 20 feet long,

  6. 11:57 – 19:06

    Wingman Alex

    1. HW

      out of that? It's hard for me to imagine that. Right. Um, but it ... So i- in ... Uh, the ... I think the ... There's one piece of data that just came out in the last few weeks-... I think, uh, David Fravor's, uh, wingman, Alex... I think her name is Alex Dietrich. I can't remember the name. Uh-

    2. JR

      I think you're right. Something like that.

    3. HW

      Um, so, uh, she came out and so, in, in, in all the things associated with that particular encounter, right, one of the things I've been trying to figure out is w- what... how do they describe the specular surface of the Tic Tac, right?

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. HW

      Uh, 'cause if it's the... these plasma pixels that I'm talking about, that kind of creates a volumetric display, I would speculate it might be kind of a, a glowy-looking thing. Uh, but I think Alex, uh, in her, uh, account, uh, described it as kind of a flat type of look.

    6. JR

      Like, mat, yeah.

    7. HW

      Yeah. So that kind of, that kind of torpedoed my, my, uh, my working theory, so. Um... but, uh, uh, again, while it's amazing and incredible and it's something that people want to go think about and go try and collect more data, it doesn't help me-

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. HW

      ... do what I'm doing in the lab. And so, I think... I kind of keep, you know, my, uh, my eyes dart every once in a while over to that particular topic. "Oh, what's that about? That's interesting, right?"

    10. JR

      Yeah, I mean, I'm honestly agnostic as well.

    11. HW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JR

      I bounce back and forth from being really excited about it to feel like I'm being duped all the time. Jamie and I talk about it all the time. "I'm back in."

    13. HW

      (laughs)

    14. JR

      And then, and Jamie's back in-

    15. HW

      (laughs)

    16. JR

      ... and Jamie will find something. He's like, "I think I'm back in." How are we right now?

    17. GT

      I'm going through the ar- I'm looking through the article about the l- the Navy laser that can do this, trying to figure out how big the objects are that they can make move. But they're definitely... They're designed to tr- to trick heat-seeking missiles. So they gotta be-

    18. HW

      Whoa.

    19. GT

      ... big enough for that. So they wanna-

    20. JR

      Okay, so they make a heat signature, so they-

    21. GT

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      ... trick the heat sig- which makes sense, right? 'Cause they're plasma.

    23. GT

      Yeah, it can from tens to hundreds of meters away at least.

    24. JR

      How- where you at right now with UFOs? You in or you're out? (laughs)

    25. HW

      (laughs)

    26. GT

      Uh... fl- I'm still in on something, but I don't know what the object is or what is-

    27. JR

      But we've both been in and out a bunch.

    28. GT

      ... the consciousness, uh, thing. I'm, I'm on that this week or month. (laughs)

    29. JR

      Oh, the one where they think they can call them in?

    30. GT

      Not just that you need consciousness to, to use it or talk to it or-

  7. 19:06 – 20:26

    AG1 NextGen

    1. JR

    2. HW

      Right. Right. Well, yeah, it-

    3. JR

      AG1 has been a long time partner of the show, and I'm excited to share some big news. The new AG1 next gen formula is here. They did a bunch of research and improved their formula to make sure it's the best it can be. The same single scoop once a day, same subtly sweet flavors with those hints of vanilla and pineapple, but now with upgraded probiotics, vitamins and minerals for even more comprehensive formula. AG1 next gen is clinically backed with four human clinical trials, and it's shown to fill common nutrient gaps even in healthy eaters. Plus, AG1's next gen travel packs now come in upgraded packaging. They're easier to tear, pour, shake, and go, so your daily nutrition is even more seamless wherever life takes you. So subscribe today to try the next gen of AG1. If you use my link, you'll also get a free bottle of AG1 D3 K2 and AG1 welcome kit, and five of the upgraded AG1 travel packs with your first subscription. So make sure you check out drinkag1.com/jorerogan to get started with AG1's next gen and notice the benefits for yourself. That's drinkag1.com/jorerogan.

  8. 20:26 – 30:14

    Space Exploration

    1. JR

    2. HW

      It's interesting, you know, I, I, I, I get a chance to go do a bunch of discussions with, uh, students all over the globe, right? And talking about, uh, um, uh, space exploration specifically, you know, advanced power and propulsion, right? I really kinda get into this whole difference between, uh, to space and, and through space. And so as part of that narrative, right, I always spend a, a little bit of time telling 'em, right, we, we live in a society where everybody likes to pretend like we got all this stuff figured out, right? There's, there's nothing left t- to figure out, right? You know, we got cellphones and internet and airplanes and-

    3. JR

      Right.

    4. HW

      ... all different kinds of stuff. There's, there's really nothing left. And so-

    5. JR

      Just maintain what we have.

    6. HW

      R- right. Well, yeah.

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. HW

      Exactly, yeah. And, and so I, I, I, I like to remind 'em, right, when I talk about, "Well, let's talk about that. What do we know?" And then I kind of take 'em through that little, uh, that little thought process of, uh, the Venn diagram just to say, "Hey, look," right? "W- these two models are not compatible." That says there, there's a bigger circle, right, that, that connects the dots between all this stuff, and I highly doubt we'll ever come up with a single c- you know, a single step that goes from just the, you know, the two circles on a Venn diagram to a final one, some grand unified theory. I, I don't think we'll ever take, like, one single step. I think it's gonna be a series of a bunch of different steps by a bunch of different people over many generations, and it's like there's so much stuff to go figure out. Come, you know, come help us push back against the darkness. Help us, you know, uh, forever hunting the edge of the map, if you will, right?

    9. JR

      Mm.

    10. HW

      So I think sometimes in, in today's society, we, we get lulled into this sense of security that we got it all figured out, right? I mean, we got AI that says all kinds of neat, and he helps us out, all, you know, all these different things. And so we get lulled into this sense that we've got it all figured out, and there's just, there's so much mystery out there for us to go figure out.

    11. JR

      Also, there's a lot of people that are full of shit that are muddying up the waters.

    12. HW

      (laughs) Okay, sure. So it's very difficult to know what is exactly true- Right, right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. ... at any current moment. I mean, just in the UAP world, there's a ton of grifters. Yeah. Yeah.

    13. JR

      There's a ton of people that are just putting sensational nonsense out to just get a bunch of clicks. And-

    14. HW

      In, in some ways, I, I, w- you know, when I, like, again, when I talk to students and I, I kinda give 'em suggestions and advice and mentoring, it's like, um, if you've got some particular area that you're interested in and it's highly technical, um, you know, go do the work that's necessary to give yourself the, you know, the math skills, the engineering skills, the science. Whatever you need, make sure you're equipped, right? So that you can, whatever's in front of you, you can go look at it with a discerning eye, right?

    15. JR

      Mm. Yeah.

    16. HW

      'Cause like you said, the, the internet's changed the world for both the better and the worse, right? The signal-to-noise ratio has changed a lot. There's a lot of noise, uh, out there. And so the, the best thing you can do to try and cope with something like that is just to make sure you're trained, right, and you're capable of being able to discern, uh, something that's real versus something that's, you know, nonsense.

    17. JR

      So what is real in terms of at least conceptually? What is real, um, about warp drives?

    18. HW

      You know, the, uh, w- great question. Um, the, when we talk about, uh, space exploration, right, um, a lot of times people think of, uh, like, a, a Falcon 9 rocket, uh, a Saturn V, or, um, a, a space shuttle. Um, and these are, these are all wonderful examples that should come to mind, but this, this is, uh, this is what we need to get to space, right? You gotta climb against the gravitational well, uh, if you will, and, and get into space. But when you, when you get into space and you wanna try and move through space, right, you, y- the things that you might use to solve that problem, uh, in an optimal sense might look very differently from the idea of, of rockets to get you, uh, to space. And so through space has a lot of things that we can bring to bear, but this, this gets into, uh, I think a, uh, a larger framework I'd like to unpack with you today, uh, to talk about this, this through space type of thought process. But since you specifically asked about warp, I'm gonna kinda jump forward.

    19. JR

      Okay, sure.

    20. HW

      I'm gonna jump forward on the, the discussion thread. Um-

    21. JR

      We don't have to. We could use it as a teaser.

    22. HW

      Okay, uh, well f- let's, let's use that as a teaser.

    23. JR

      Okay. Let's do it as a teaser.

    24. HW

      Let's, let's back up then.

    25. JR

      Okay, let's back up.

    26. HW

      And, uh, so I, I, you know, I, I provided a, um-... a video that we pulled together, um, uh, called Go Incredibly Fast. Uh, I did it with a, uh, a Swedish, uh, digital artist, uh, Erik Ornquist. He's done a bunch of wonderful videos for NASA, um, and a bunch of o- other friends. But this, this video, um, kind of encapsulates, uh, the challenge of time and distance in space, right? If you wanna send human beings past Mars in the solar system, that sets up a problem statement, right? That, uh, changes the nature of the types of technologies that you might think about bringing to bear to s- to solve the problem. And so, this video tells us, uh, what s- what are some things that we can do to solve this problem, uh, spanning from things that we kinda know, to things that we kinda don't know, in terms of both physics and engineering.

    27. JR

      Okay.

    28. HW

      And so, this video is kind of a, uh, an emotional encapsulation of a highly technical story. So, let's watch. This will be a great way to kinda, uh, tee off this discussion.

    29. JR

      "The 'sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.'" Carl Sagan.

    30. HW

      (laughs) As incredible as it may seem, there will be a time, and it may be closer than you think, when we live on other worlds. The moon, Mars, and in the space between. And when that day comes, just as always, our children will look with curiosity across these new horizons with a desire to go further and to explore what lies beyond. But beyond Mars, the distances between worlds grow immensely, even within our own solar system, and become truly vast in between stars. If we ever want to reach out across these distances, we need to learn how to go fast.

  9. 30:14 – 34:58

    Time Distance

    1. JR

      for that-

    2. HW

      Thanks, Jamie. Yeah. Erik Ornquist, uh, was the s- the Swedish digital, digital artist that we used to develop that, uh, that video. Um, and so, uh-

    3. JR

      Well, that guy nailed it.

    4. HW

      Oh my gosh, didn't he?

    5. JR

      That's pretty cool.

    6. HW

      Yeah. Yeah. We had, uh, we had, uh, like, a, a three swim lane chart, if you will, that's a very technical version of this. We, we have a copy of it. We don't, we don't need to bring it up, J- Jamie. I can just do it verbally here. Um, but, uh, it kind of encapsulates that thought process of this time distance problem. Um, you know-... when we think about space exploration with humans, we think about Mars. Right? We're trying to... We've sent human beings to the moon. We're probably going to go back to the moon, uh, sooner rather than later, and then eventually we want to send human beings, uh, to Mars. Uh, but what if we wanted to send (clears throat) human beings to Saturn, and we want to get them there in 200 days? Um, these are... That's a timeframe that's kinda compatible with what we've thought about for humans to Mars, 180 to 220 days. If you frame the question that way, the amount of energy that's necessary to get humans, uh, to Saturn in 200 days is an order of magnitude more energy than it takes to get a payload from the surface of the Earth to low earth orbit. So, all that to say, right, that particular problem, um, chemical propulsion can't solve that problem. And so, this is... This is starting to kind of frame the discussion, um, th- this narrative that we've pulled together when we talk to students, uh, all around the globe, the difference between to space and the difference of through space. When you talk about through space, the distances are just so big, right? You have to rethink the problem, especially when you constrain it with, uh, how long does it take, uh, to get there, right? And so, um, uh, this particular video encapsulates things that we might do, uh, to solve problems like that, and maybe even into another star system, talking about, uh, things that we know, like the very first part of the video. The vignette was, like you said, nuclear electric propul- I can't do your voice very well.

    7. JR

      Yeah. (laughs)

    8. HW

      Nuclear electric propulsion, right?

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. HW

      And so, this is a situation where it's known physics, known engineering. We've got a nuclear reactor, uh, that's fissioning uranium, let's say. It's splitting apart atoms, uh, and that's the source of energy. You use that energy to, uh, plug into some form of electric propulsion. Like, you got the neon sign that's behind you. Imagine, uh, you could take one of those tubes and, and cut the end off and allow the bl- the, the blue or green glowy bit to come out the back, right? And so, the efficiency of electric propulsion versus chemical propulsion is much better. And so, that's a way we can potentially think of a spacecraft architecture, nuclear electric propulsion, a nuclear reactor coupled to some form of electric propulsion that allows us to send human beings to Saturn in 200 days. And technically speaking, that capability, if we didn't invent anything else beyond that, that would allow us to send human beings everywhere in the solar system. That's why that's extremely important. And now, we're getting into the, the passion of what I fought s- fought for, uh, so hard working at NASA, to try and advocate for this understanding of the big difference between, uh, these two types of problems, if you will. Um, if we, you know, it, if we make up our minds, uh, to perfect the idea of nuclear electric propulsion as a capability, I mean, that unlocks the whole solar system.

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. HW

      Right? That's just kinda like the, just the tip of the iceberg. And so, the video then goes on, after we, you know, after we kinda say, you know, nuclear e- electric propulsion, uh, can open up a lot of stuff for us, but it's still gonna take... You remember how long it said to go to Proxima Centauri? It was like, you know.

    13. JR

      100 years.

    14. HW

      Oh, th- uh, two thous- 2,000 years.

    15. JR

      2,000 years.

    16. HW

      For the n- the n-

    17. JR

      Oh, that's right.

    18. HW

      So, I mean, I don't know about you, but that better be one comfortable window seat, right? That's a long time to be on a flight, if you will.

    19. JR

      Now, yeah. How screwed up-

    20. HW

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      ... are the people-

    22. HW

      Right.

    23. JR

      ... that live-

    24. HW

      Right.

    25. JR

      ... because you're inbreeding?

    26. HW

      Yeah, well, it's... Yeah, it's g-

    27. JR

      You know?

    28. HW

      It definitely... It's gonna be generations, right? So, either you-

    29. JR

      Yeah, it's gonna be generations. You're gonna have to have babies.

    30. HW

      Yeah.

  10. 34:58 – 35:59

    Visible

    1. JR

      episode is brought to you by Visible. Now, you know, I tend to go down a lot of rabbit holes. I want to know everything about everything. And if you're like that, you need wireless that can keep up. Visible is wireless that lets you live in the know. It's the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited data and hotspot, so you're connected on the go. Plus, Visible is powered by Verizon's 5G network, meaning fast speeds and great coverage. And with the new Visible+ Pro plan, you get premium wireless without the premium cost. And the best part? It's all digital, no stores. You can switch to Visible right from your phone. It only takes about 15 minutes, and then you manage your plan in the app. Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know? Make the switch at visible.com/rogan. Plans start at $25 a month. For the best features, get the new Visible+ Pro plan for $45 a month. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management

  11. 35:59 – 37:44

    Fusion Propulsion

    1. JR

      details.

    2. HW

      So-

    3. JR

      Not only that, re- the reality is, by the time they get there, the human beings will have created technology that far exceeds that and probably-

    4. HW

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... beat them to it.

    6. HW

      Yeah. You kinda see that hinted in the video-

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. HW

      ... too, right? Where you got the... You got the slow boat, and then you got the-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. HW

      ... fusion's the next one that comes by, and the guy's like, you know, waving, uh, as it goes by, uh, to the other one.

    11. JR

      Well, for sure, you would be a sucker to get on the first ship.

    12. HW

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      Because by the time it gets there-

    14. HW

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      ... the new ships will have already been there for months.

    16. HW

      Yeah, yeah. They'll welcome you when you arrive, right?

    17. JR

      Yeah. The grandchildren of those people-

    18. HW

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. JR

      ... will welcome you.

    20. HW

      Yeah. So, the, the, the fusion propulsion is kinda the next step.... in the story. And so, when we make that step, we're a little bit into the unknown, right? We, we understand the ph- we understand the physics, right? The sun at the center of our solar system works on fusion. It, uh, um, fuses atoms together instead of splitting them apart to generate electricity. And so, fusion propulsion is kind of another step in capability, right, that allows us to do, um, maybe do an interstellar mission that's measured in 100, uh, maybe 200 years. S- still kind of long, but that's a lot more respectable than, uh, 2,000 years. But, um, contrary to what the movie Iron Man might say, uh, we don't have fusion reactors that are gigawatts the size of this coffee cup, right? So-

    21. JR

      That you can stick in your chest.

    22. HW

      Yeah, yeah. We got-

    23. JR

      (laughs)

    24. HW

      ... we got- we, we- we got a little work to do, uh, uh-

    25. JR

      Well-

    26. HW

      ... before we get there, so.

    27. JR

      Well, that, that comic book was written probably in the '50s.

    28. HW

      Right. Right, right.

    29. JR

      Um, so when you think about this kind of progress, this ability to generate that amount of power and to bend gravity and to bend space-

    30. HW

      Mm-hmm.

  12. 37:44 – 41:24

    Space Warp

    1. HW

      That's actually one of the most popular questions I get when I, I go talk to, to students, right? Whenever you-

    2. JR

      Sure.

    3. HW

      ... you, you talk about that, that last swim lane in the video, the idea of a space warp. Uh, you know, you can expand and contract space, and that allows us to potentially go somewhere in, in months, whereas we were just previously talking about, uh, millennia and centuries, right?

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. HW

      And so, just to remind, uh, folks, we just talked about, uh, everything that we know of physics today, quantum mechanics, general relativity, right? We gotta add some more stuff to the Venn diagram, uh, to develop an understanding. Um, and so my crystal ball is no better than yours, Joe. I, I, I c- I couldn't say specifically, um, if, when something like that might happen. But I can say I actually do know what we need to be working on right now, right? And so, in that context, right? I, I'm certainly doing the things that, that, uh, I think might help make meaningful progress towards that type of operative goal at some point in time. But, you know, I, I, I just don't know how long it might take. And so let me, let me kind of give a, a, an experience, uh, that I had, um, when... So I, I taught at International Space University, uh, uh, over in Strasbourg in, uh, France. And they have, they have a cathedral there in Strasbourg, absolutely stunning. Um, but the h- the thing that's even more interesting about this structure, it's like 500 feet tall. Um, they started building it in 1100 AD, and they didn't finish the cathedral until 1700 AD.

    6. JR

      Sure.

    7. HW

      So the, the people that built the basement had no hope of seeing the finished product. All they could do was imagine in their mind's eye what it might look like, and they... But they knew what they needed to do to kind of make meaningful progress. And so they did their work, and then they hand the baton off to the next generation. Maybe they're putting the floor in, and then another generation does the, the buttresses and so forth. So, uh, from that standpoint, I think sometimes it's important to... You know, we talk about teamwork, right? Teamwork is a, a, a great thing. Um, but teamwork, we typically think of shoulder to shoulder, right? But I, I think there's also value in teamwork across generations, uh, if you will, right? In a- in a day and age where you get impatient if you text somebody and they don't text you back-

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. HW

      ... in like 30 seconds-

    10. JR

      Right.

    11. HW

      ... I, I think we've lost an appreciation for the value of what that means, right?

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. HW

      In terms of working over stuff longer than what your horizon might be. I'd love to see the idea of a space warp, uh, you know, before I, I, I, I go to the next chapter. Um, but I, I don't know that that will happen for sure. But I do know specifically what I need to be doing. And so from that standpoint, that's how I kind of- that's how I grapple with that particular question. 'Cause wh- I mean, it's a, it's a wonderful question, and I, and I, I would love to be able to tell you a, a very concise answer that would fit with what I would hope it would be, but I don't know for certain. But I do know what I need to be doing next. A- and that gets into... And maybe we can unpack that in just a little bit. That gets into the idea of how the idea of a space warp works and how that traces back to those two circles on the Venn diagram.

    14. JR

      Right, let's do that.

    15. HW

      Quantum mechanics and general relativity.

    16. JR

      Yeah, let's talk about that.

    17. HW

      Right. Yeah. So, uh, maybe what we can do... Uh, Jamie, I sent you... Uh, there's a, there's a slide that's got like a, a, a cartoon space warp with looks like a little, uh, sheet of, uh, uh, a mesh or something like that. I don't know how to explain it. If you could pull up, uh...

    18. JR

      There it is. There it is.

    19. HW

      Yes, yes!

    20. JR

      Oh, wow. How

  13. 41:24 – 49:19

    Space Warp Illustration

    1. JR

      cool does that look?

    2. HW

      That's the one. That's the one. So we, we actually did that graphic on the right for, uh, Nature, uh, the journal, Nature. They were doing a article on the 50th anniversary of Star Trek, and so they asked us to, uh, pull together that graphic.

    3. JR

      Oh, cool.

    4. HW

      Uh, and so this is, um, this is a, uh, an illustration of the ide- idea of a space warp. Let me give just a little bit of background. Um, you know, in, in, in physics, there is a speed limit that we have to acknowledge when we talk about trying to go somewhere really quickly, right? And so I, I like to call it the 11th commandment of physics, thou shalt not exceed the speed of light, right? It's kind of a hard and fast speed limit. And so if you talk about trying to get to another star that's four and a quarter light years away, that might or that should automatically set in your mind, "Well, shoot, we can't get any there- can't get there any quicker than four and a quarter light years," right? Well, there is-

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. HW

      ... a little bit of hope because there's a loophole in general relativity that establishes that hard speed limit. General relativity says we can expand and contract space at any speed.... and we see evidence for this, uh, when we look at the nature of the cosmos, right? Right after the Big Bang, uh, 14 billion years ago, um, there was something called an inflationary phase, right, where if you were to pick two random points in this expanding bubble of the early cosmos, you stood on one point, and you looked at another point a- and figured out how fast it was moving away from you. It would move away from you like 10 to the 30th... You know, 10 with 30 zeros times the speed of light. So-

    7. JR

      (exhales)

    8. HW

      ... yeah. We're really, really, really fast, right?

    9. JR

      Yes. (laughs)

    10. HW

      And so, we, we know from astrophysics and cosmology that this is possible, and so, um, this idea was, uh, kinda rattling around in a physicist's brain called Alcubierre, who said, "Hey, well, you know, this is, it's interesting nature can do it on a grand scale. Can we potentially do it, uh, on a purposeful... in a purposeful way?" And so, he published a paper in 1994 that, uh, kind of encapsulated the mathematics, um, for this idea, and if you, if you take his mathematics, and you put it into physical form, it's gonna look like my little cartoon here on the right. And so, you got the, the little ring that goes around the, the little surface here, it looks like a wave, and then there's a little central portion there, it kinda looks like a, a football, let's say.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. HW

      Uh, and so, what happens is that ring that goes around that little football, that's what would... That's what's necessary to make the trick work. And so, it has to be filled with something called, uh, exotic matter. And so, that's an important issue, right? The, uh... What's exotic matter, right? So it's, it's something in general relativity, uh, that's also equivalent to negative mass. And so, we all understand positive mass, right? If your little brother hits you on the head with something, that's positive mass hitting your head, right? Negative mass is not only zero mass, but it's a negative value. And so, what does that even mean? And so, um, in the context of general relativity, if we come up with a model that requires exotic matter, we have to highlight that as a problem 'cause we don't... In general relativity... General relativity doesn't tell us how to make that. And so, that could potentially be an obstacle that would prevent something like this from ever being physically real. But if we could figure out how to make it, and I'll actually speak to that in just a second. If we could make that, and we could create a ring that could manifest that exotic matter, it would cause space-time to respond in such a way so that it would expand and contract to allow you to go to Proxima Centauri in five and a half months as measured by you onboard the spacecraft in that football, and as measured by, uh, folks over in mission control over in, uh, Houston.

    13. JR

      Whoa. Now, this exotic matter. What do you speculate that would... (clears throat) What would that be?

    14. HW

      So, exotic matter, (clears throat) and this... The, the cool thing is, um... Hey, these are the equations, so there'll, there'll be a test later, Joe, so you know.

    15. JR

      Oh, I'm ready. (laughs)

    16. HW

      (laughs) So, um, (clears throat) uh, in Alcubierre's paper in 1994, right, he, he rightly highlights the fact that, uh, "Hey, there's a problem. Danger, W- Will Robinson. Uh, this stuff requires exotic matter that may mean it's, uh, nonphysical." However, he highlights the fact, uh, "Hey, we have this other circle over here called quantum mechanics, and there's something in the context of quantum mechanics called negative vacuum energy density." And so, uh, that's something that's connected to the idea of the Casimir force. We'll, we'll unpack that later, but, uh, that is something that could s- serve as a proxy for the idea of exotic matter, and may help us one day make the idea of a, a space warp a physical real thing.

    17. JR

      Whoa. (exhales) So, this ability to e- to, to, to, to go...

    18. HW

      (clears throat)

    19. JR

      ... as fast as you're describing-

    20. HW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      ... where you could l- conceivably make it-

    22. HW

      Yeah. Yeah.

    23. JR

      ... to other source systems.

    24. HW

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      This obviously is a version of it that will probably be improved upon.

    26. HW

      Mm-hmm. Right.

    27. JR

      So, if this ever does come to fruition, you could conceivably imagine a time where you generate even more power-

    28. HW

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JR

      ... have even more capability-

    30. HW

      Mm-hmm.

  14. 49:19 – 1:16:28

    Life imitating art

    1. HW

      There we go. The (clears throat) , when you look at the math and physics associated with this, right, the, um, the proper acceleration alpha on board the spacecraft is, uh, formally zero. So, what that means when they turn the warp on and off, it doesn't, like, splatter the crew against the bulkhead. You talked about... In the beginning of the show, we talked about G-forces.

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. HW

      Right? And so, um, I don't know if Alcubierre specifically was hoping to, to f- to, you know, land on that kind of observation, but the little toy model that he came up with has got a lot of appealing characteristics, and that's one of them, right? When you turn the warp on and off, uh, the proper acceleration alpha is formally zero, so it's actually 0G, so...

    4. JR

      That's fascinating.

    5. HW

      He stum-... He stumbled into a really nice, uh, a really nice solution, if you will. Um, i- if you don't mind, while we're here, I'd love to maybe spend just a second to, um, talk about life imitating art. There's a... There's some interesting things that, uh... I think it's the next slide or two. Uh, keep going. We'll come back to this one another, another time. Um, (clears throat) , so this is, um... It's a modern rendering done by, uh, Mark Rademacher, a, a digital artist from the Netherlands I've worked with over the years. Um, this is a Star Trek ship concept, uh, that was developed by Matthew Jeffries in the '60s for the TV show-

    6. JR

      Uh-oh.

    7. HW

      ... Star Trek. And so, you might notice there are some qualitative similarities here, uh, to this, uh, this little structure, to the, the little gray cartoon that I just showed you. It's got the rings on it, right? It's got this little central structure. Uh, but there are... There are actually a, a couple of fatal flaws with this concept, uh, but the, the, the thing that's fascinating to me, before we talk about the, the things we're going to fix, is Matthew Jeffries is not a physicist, uh, number one. Number two, the, the math and physics associated with the idea of a spacewarp hadn't been published, uh, in the '60s when he came up with this artwork. But look how close he got, right?

    8. JR

      Wow.

    9. HW

      For somebody just, just, you know, just following his gut instinct in terms of pulling something together.

    10. JR

      What was his background? Was... Did he have some sort of a background in science?

    11. HW

      (clears throat) I, I couldn't, I couldn't say. I don't know for certain. Um, but, uh, man, he sure did-

    12. JR

      He nailed it.

    13. HW

      Yeah. He sure did get close.

    14. JR

      (laughs) He got so close, I would almost-

    15. HW

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. HW

      So, the, the, the interesting thing is the, the nature of this ship, the fatal flaws that it had, has. So, we, we did a... We did a update of this as part of, like, an education outreach. Um, so I, I reached out to Mark Rademacher and some folks from CBS Studios, and so we, we did a updated version of this, uh, for a Star Trek Ships of the Line calendar.

    18. JR

      That's cooler-looking.

    19. HW

      Um, yeah. And that's the one that's in the video, right? The IXS Enterprise.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. HW

      Uh, go back just one more, uh, one slide, uh, Jamie.

    22. JR

      Wow.

    23. HW

      Um, so the, the problem with this, uh, version here is the rings that go around the spaceship are entirely too thin. So, when you calculate how much of the exotic matter I just talked about that you might need to make this thing do something useful, it's gonna be a very large number that might be impossible to ever make. Uh, so that's, like, fatal flaw number one. Fatal flaw number two is the bridge of the spaceship goes way out in front of where the warp bubble would form, uh, as a result of those rings. So, the rings would form, like, a, a warp bubble that looks like a little capsule. It would actually cut the bridge off, and the bridge would go floating away and-

    24. JR

      Oh, boy.

    25. HW

      ... and Scotty would be so fired, right?

    26. JR

      That's not good.

    27. HW

      That'd be a short, sad episode of Star Trek. So-

    28. JR

      Yeah. I hope they have a parachute.

    29. HW

      Right, right, (laughs) exactly. So, we, we worked with CBS Studios. Now you can go to the next slide. Uh, so now we've got, uh, you know, the rings are much more athletic. Uh, they have more heft to them. They're thicker, so that reduces the, uh, energy requirements. And then the spaceship itself is kind of properly nestled into the, uh, the warp bubble, if you will.

    30. JR

      It just looks cooler.

Episode duration: 2:34:15

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