Joe Rogan Experience #2324 - Amanda Knox

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Amanda Knox 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Narrator 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)

Joe Rogan 0:12 Hello.

Amanda Knox 0:13 Hey!

Joe Rogan 0:13 Good to see you.

Amanda Knox 0:14 Good to see you again.

Joe Rogan 0:15 You have a book?

Amanda Knox 0:16 I do, yeah. I hope you like it.

Joe Rogan 0:18 Free. (laughs) That's a great name for it.

Amanda Knox 0:20 Yeah! Well, it's- it's on point. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:23 Yeah, it's on the nose.

Amanda Knox 0:24 Yes.

Joe Rogan 0:24 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 0:25 Well, that- that whole question of what does it mean to be free, and what, you know ... Yes, there's the physical, like, "Oh, you're out of prison," but then also, is your life the thing that you expected it to be, and how do you make your own freedom when you feel hemmed in by all of the things that happened to you? So ...

Joe Rogan 0:42 Yeah, you're connected to that forever. That's always gonna be a part of your life. It's not like anything else that didn't really happen, like you didn't do anything, and you're connected to something that you didn't really do, forever. For people that don't know the story-

Amanda Knox 0:58 Yeah, yeah-

Joe Rogan 0:58 ... we should probably-

Amanda Knox 0:59 ... we should do a little recap.

Joe Rogan 1:00 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 1:00 Recap? Okay, recap, friends.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Real- real quick for-

Amanda Knox 1:02 Recap, friends, um, and you can go back to the episode that, of Joe Rogan. What number was that? Do you know?

Joe Rogan 1:09 I don't know.

Amanda Knox 1:09 Off the top of your head?

Joe Rogan 1:10 If you just Google "Amanda Knox," you'll go, "Holy shit."

Amanda Knox 1:13 You'll go down a crazy rabbit hole, yes. So, in a nutshell, what happened?

Joe Rogan 1:17 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 1:18 I was studying abroad when I was 20 years old, in Perugia, Italy. My- one of my roommates was raped and murdered by a burglar who broke into our home, but I was accused of having orchestrated a murder orgy, and I was sent to prison for four years. I was sentenced to 26 years. I was put on trial for eight years, and it became this international scandal, uh, where i- it sort of pinged all of the buttons in all the right places. This happened in 2007, so, you know, early 2000s, when the internet was- or- the internet- the social media was really becoming a thing. The iPhone was becoming a thing. I think that that played a huge role of people sort of going into their little echo chambers and fighting online, and so I think that there was- Yeah, i- it was a case that, for whatever reason, rose above the- the level of other cases. Like, ultimately, this case was actually very simple, and it wouldn't have risen to the level of international infamy were it not for the series of mistakes that the prosecution and the def- and the detectives made at the very beginning, by trying to pin a man's crime on me, a woman.

Joe Rogan 2:35 Yeah, um, and if anybody wants, there's a documentary.

Amanda Knox 2:38 Yes, there's a Netflix documentary. Um, I wrote a book called Waiting to Be Heard, and then, more recently, I wrote this book, Free: My Search for Meaning, which covers, like, you know, you can read it and learn about the case, but it's mostly about how do you come out of an experience like that and make sense of it? And then, eh, part- one of the big stories in it is how I then developed a relationship with my prosecutor, which I think you'll probably be in the camp of people of thinking that I'm utterly insane for having (laughs) done that. Maybe, maybe, maybe you won't. I just remember that when we talked about this back in the day, you were like, "This motherfucker." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:16 Yeah. So you've become friends with him?

Amanda Knox 3:20 Friend is an interesting word. Um, what is a friend? Someone else asked me that. Like, I was like, "Dep- it depends on what you mean by 'friend'," um, because- And they said, "Well, do you trust him?" And I said, "Well, I- I think that, at the point that we are now in our relationship, um, I do trust him." I trust that he's telling me the truth about what he really thinks and f- and feels about the situation. So I feel like I have very privileged, special access to the mind of the person who put me in prison, and that is a very interesting, uh, i- uh, awkward but also empowering place for me to be, because one of the things that really bothered me about this experience was not understanding why it happened to me. Why did this man look at a 20-year-old girl with no criminal history, no motivation to commit this crime? Why did he look at me and think, "There's my rapist and murderer"? And I didn't understand it, and I didn't feel like demonizing him in my mind, or vilifying him in my mind, was going to actually give me a satisfying answer as to the why of it all. A lot of people said, "Well, it's just 'cause he's a bad dude. He doesn't care what the truth is. He's just covering his ass." Like, these were all really simplistic ways of framing his motivations, and I didn't really buy them. Um, so instead, what I was interested in was going to the source and confronting him, asking why. But to ask someone, "Why did you hurt me?" which I think is a really common thing that people who have been hurt want to know, is they want an acknowledgement that they've been hurt, and they wanna understand why, and they- they wanna know if that person's not gonna hurt them anymore or not gonna hurt other people. Like, that's really common for people who have been hurt. Um, the- the challenge is that people who hurt other people don't like (laughs) to be confronted with that fact. And so, how do you start a conversation that's not going to immediately become adversarial? And that was one of my biggest challenges, but I came up with this methodology that I actually, it became so important to me that I tattooed it on my arm, so this is it. Um, there are four steps, and, uh, the first one is "find common ground." So it's this Venn diagram. Find common ground.I promise you that every single person on this earth, you have something in common with them. Find it. So, I asked myself, "What could I and my prosecutor have in common?" I didn't know this man. I didn't know what his h- history was, what his background was. But I did know that he, like me, was part of this really big, scandalous, in the media case. And he very likely felt misconstrued or misrepresented also in the process, maybe dehumanized in the process. And so, I reached out to him and I acknowledged that fact. I said, "Hey, I don't know who you are. I only ever encountered you in the police office and in the courtroom where you were someone who was trying to ruin my life. So, you were a big, scary boogeyman, and I saw you in the media and I... You know, I've seen how the media represented you, but I (laughs) knowing from experience, I know how that can be very misrepresentative." So, I said to him, "I want to know who you really are, and I hope that you might be interested (laughs) to know who I really am, 'cause I don't think you know who I really am. I don't think that you would have prosecuted me if you knew who I really am." And that was the beginning of the dialogue. This, like... I went out of my way to acknowledge that he might have had noble v- motivations, even if he was wrong. And I think this is, like, a really important thing, is... I- I wanted to give him radical benefit of the doubt. Maybe, just maybe, this, like, horrible thing that happened to me could have been the result of understandable mistakes. And if anything, I think coming into contact with the innocence movement and criminal justice system stuff, and reform, all the stuff that I've learned after having gone through this experience, has made me realize that, like, some of the most horrible things can happen and can be enacted by people who have the best of intentions. And so I assumed that of him, and I gave him that benefit of the doubt, and as soon as I, like, opened that door, like, "Hey, you hurt me, but maybe that wasn't your intention. Maybe your intention was something else," he filled that void with his story and his message and- and what he wanted me to understand about himself. And (laughs) I mean, one of the wildest things about this book is that I talk about, like... I do not sugarcoat what I went through, like... And especially what he did to me. Like, I very, like, clearly set out, like, "Here's the fucked up shit he said about me in court. Completely without evidence, like, totally made up bullshit." Like... And it ruined my life, right? "Here's what it is, acknowledge these facts, and also, and also, here is a person who might have had, like... In doing so, might have been coming from a place of trying to rationalize things in his own mind, which is a thing that we all do, we all do on a, on a regular basis. We're all just sort of interpreting our reality in the way that suits us." And so I... And I wrote this book from my perspective. I translated the entire thing into T- into Italian before it ever got published so that I could share it with him, so that he would know what I was saying about him in public, what was imminently going to come out, and his response was, "I have never felt more seen." That's what he told me.

Joe Rogan 9:48 That sounds like something a teenage girl would say.

Amanda Knox 9:51 Well, that's an interesting observation. (laughs) Um, because it's become quite emotional, um, especially on his part, um (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 10:10 Oh. (laughs)

Amanda Knox 10:11 ... I don't know. I- I- I shouldn't go there too much, um, just-

Joe Rogan 10:16 You're protecting his privacy? That's hilarious.

Amanda Knox 10:19 Yeah, yeah.

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Amanda Knox 11:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:40 You're a very nice person.

Amanda Knox 11:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:42 You're so much nicer than me (laughs) .

Amanda Knox 11:45 (laughs) Well, I don't know, I've just had really bad stuff happen to me, and like-

Joe Rogan 11:49 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Knox 11:49 ... I don't wish bad stuff upon other people. And-

Joe Rogan 11:52 That's a beautiful way to live your life. It really is. I mean, that's, uh, what all Christians aspire to, is what you're doing.

Amanda Knox 12:03 Yeah, uh... I- I guess. I'm not a Christian.

Joe Rogan 12:05 Radical forgiveness.

Amanda Knox 12:07 Yeah. Uh, you know, and it's funny, I didn't really set out for... Uh, people, like, point to that. They're like, "Forgiveness, forgiveness. You're doing forgiveness." And I was like, "Is this forgiveness or is this..."

Joe Rogan 12:16 Just communicating with him is forgiveness in some way and not having extreme anger.

Amanda Knox 12:22 Well, that's the thing. I do have extreme anger.

Joe Rogan 12:25 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Knox 12:25 Like, that's all part of it. Um, and this is where, like, the Buddhist in me comes out, where you- you can have extreme anger towards a person and at the same time hold them in your hand as this, like, tender, fallible creature that is capable of violence against you, but is also capable of being hurt. Just because someone hurt you doesn't mean that they're not capable of being hurt. And I certainly don't want to be in the position of hurting someone. Like, that's just who I am. And if anything, like, one thing that I've communicated to him is like, "Look, I don't know if you're ever gonna really wrap your head around what you did to me, um, but if you do one day, um, I know that you're gonna feel really, really bad. And I just want you to know that, like, I- I don't wish suffering on you. I don't." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:34 Did you ask him if he had gone over any of his previous cases and wondered whether he did the same thing to other people? Because I don't think that's something you do once. I don't think you are an ethical prosecutor who just really objectively analyzes the evidence and puts forth a case based on what you think is the facts.

Amanda Knox 13:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:00 I don't- I don't think you do that your whole career, and then, "This 20-year-old bitch-"

Amanda Knox 14:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:04 ... "I think she's too cute. I don't like how she's smiling."

Amanda Knox 14:08 Yeah, there... Yeah, there was that element to it.

Joe Rogan 14:11 It has to be.

Amanda Knox 14:12 Well, yeah, I think that... And I do feel like there was a, some kind of pornographic nature to it. Like, I don't know, like, I think that maybe...

Joe Rogan 14:24 Well, there's a lot of men that have, like, a deep resentment for beautiful women. And-

Amanda Knox 14:29 Just from feelings of rejection?

Joe Rogan 14:31 Yes.

Amanda Knox 14:31 Or... Yeah, okay.

Joe Rogan 14:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they are attracted to them or they find them to be beautiful or desirable, and they know that that woman wants to have nothing to do with them.

Amanda Knox 14:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:43 Like, they are completely repulsive, and so... You- you see it a lot with, unfortunately, unattractive men. They develop a hate for women. I've seen it. I've- I've seen it evolve over years with people that I used to be friends with, you know, like, just constant rejection, and then it becomes, like, "Fuck these women, fuck them, they just want this." Like, (sighs) okay, put yourself in their position.

Amanda Knox 15:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:07 You're gross. (laughs)

Amanda Knox 15:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:10 You know, like, what are they supposed to do?

Amanda Knox 15:12 Try harder. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:13 What are they supposed to do? Like, be with someone that they're not attracted to to make that person feel better? Like, that's not what people do. Like, you have a short window of life.

Amanda Knox 15:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:22 And you're supposed to pursue what you like, and your, you know, your fucking hand of cards sucks. Sorry. You know-

Amanda Knox 15:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:29 ... this is how it goes. But that thing where, you know, they look at you like you have it too easy, you have too many gifts, there's- life has given you too good a hand of cards, you know, and you should be punished, you should be knocked down a peg. You see that in particular in the media with celebrity.

Amanda Knox 15:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:52 It's a big one with celebrity women. If something goes wrong, like, they just can't wait-

Amanda Knox 15:58 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:58 ... to dunk on them, mock them for weight gain, whatever it is.

Amanda Knox 16:03 For getting out of a car in the wrong way.

Joe Rogan 16:05 Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Knox 16:05 They- they were the ones-

Joe Rogan 16:06 Anything.

Amanda Knox 16:06 ... who were, like, showing up to get up their skirt. Yeah, any- any sort of-

Joe Rogan 16:09 Well, I think that stuff was on purpose.

Amanda Knox 16:12 (laughs) Oh, is it? Okay.

Joe Rogan 16:13 Yeah, I think the Paris Hilton stuff, like back in the day where a lot of women were, like... It was, like, an epidemic of, uh-

Amanda Knox 16:19 Of getting out of cars. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:20 ... girls getting out of... And photographers just happened to be on the ground.

Amanda Knox 16:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:24 Like, you're a woman, you've worn skirts. It's not easy to look up someone's skirt. If you're standing up and someone gets out of their... How the fuck do you get down?

Amanda Knox 16:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:32 You- you'd have to be on your knees. I think they were doing it on purpose.

Amanda Knox 16:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:36 I think it was a way of going viral-

Amanda Knox 16:38 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:38 ... before viral was a thing, 'cause it went away. Like, when was the last time-

Amanda Knox 16:43 That we had an up-the-skirt shot?

Joe Rogan 16:45 ... First of all, "Why don't you have any underwear on?" That seems weird.

Amanda Knox 16:47 (laughs) Well, panty lines, you know that's a real thing.

Joe Rogan 16:51 Uh, yeah, sure.

Amanda Knox 16:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:52 But that's what G-strings were invented for, right?

Amanda Knox 16:54 Those still create lines, my friend. It depends on the dress.

Joe Rogan 16:57 I guess.

Amanda Knox 16:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:57 But I mean, are you that concerned with lines that you wanna go bareback?

Amanda Knox 17:01 I've not gone bareback, uh, at a- at a premiere, I have to say. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:04 With a little skirt on, hopping out of a car-

Amanda Knox 17:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:07 ... and the way they did it.

Amanda Knox 17:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:09 It just...

Joe Rogan 17:10 I think it was like, uh... You know, I mean, they're the same people that had sex tapes that "leaked," air quotes-

Amanda Knox 17:17 Right, right, right, right.

Joe Rogan 17:17 ... that were engineered. I mean, the whole thing was... It- it was on purpose. Like...

Amanda Knox 17:22 Sure, sure, sure, yeah. But in- but in terms of your-

Joe Rogan 17:25 'Cause it stopped.

Amanda Knox 17:25 ... of, like, trying to take beautiful women down a peg-

Joe Rogan 17:28 Yes.

Amanda Knox 17:28 ... I think you're right. I also think that something that was going on, um, in my case that I think you also tend to see in those situations where you're trying to take beautiful women down a peg is this idea of, like, pitting women against each other. Um, like, that was a huge thing in my case, where they were suggesting that, you know, here I was, this, like, free-spirited but also whore-y, you know, American girl versus the uptight, judgmental British girl. And- and therefore they hated each other and with, you know, with a vengeance, with a lethal vengeance.

Joe Rogan 18:06 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Knox 18:07 And then...... then this idea of, like, a murder orgy appeared, where this pornographic fantasy of women ex- like, expressing their own violent fantasies towards each other in real life and using men as pawns in that, in that game of, of violent hatred towards each other. I think you see that a lot, um, you know, e- even in, like, a person that I, I write about in this book who's become a dear friend of mine is Monica Lewinsky, and how I feel like people really wanted to bring her down a peg in part because they wanted to bring Hillary down a peg. And the whole, like, pers- the person who actually committed the affair was sort of... I mean, he definitely got his part, but it was all, like, a political game of they're trying to take down the man, but they're also taking down the woman. And they're especially railroading this young woman who made a mistake, and it became known as the Monica Lewinsky scandal and not, you know, the Bill Clinton affair or whatever. Like, it matters what you name a thing, and it seemed like the legacy of that, and the person who became defined entirely by that scandal happened to be Monica, the one who was the person with the least amount of power and agency in that equation. And-

Joe Rogan 19:32 Also 20 years old.

Amanda Knox 19:33 Yeah, 23 years old.

Joe Rogan 19:35 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 19:35 Yeah, who did a very normal thing, which was fall in love with a charismatic, powerful man.

Joe Rogan 19:40 And he was handsome as fuck back then.

Amanda Knox 19:42 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:42 I mean, he was the president of the United States.

Amanda Knox 19:44 He was the president of the United States.

Joe Rogan 19:45 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 19:45 He was charismatic. He was handsome. He showered her with attention, and it makes sense that a young, inexperienced person would fall in love with him. And yet, she was the one who got railroaded. She was the homewrecker. She was the, the one who became the subject of all the rap lyrics. And her entire life and her entire identity became identified with this mistake she had made, and that was not the same thing with the president of the United States. And I think that that impulse to define women by their worst moments and to tear them down for their worst moments is, um, is prevalent, as from what I have seen.

Joe Rogan 20:27 Well, I think because they know it's so devastating to the person.

Amanda Knox 20:30 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:31 You know what I mean? It's like, there's that, the bully instinct when they know that you're weak and vulnerable-

Amanda Knox 20:36 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:36 ... you know, to attack.

Amanda Knox 20:38 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:38 You know?

Amanda Knox 20:39 But why? To what end?

Joe Rogan 20:40 People are cruel, 'cause they've been hurt. You know, it's the hurt people hurt people thing.

Amanda Knox 20:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:45 You know? I think it's just-

Amanda Knox 20:46 Like schadenfreude, just as an audience?

Joe Rogan 20:48 Yeah. Uh-huh.

Amanda Knox 20:49 Like, we want-

Joe Rogan 20:49 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 20:49 We want a story. We want a real-life story where we get to, you know, passively enjoy the destruction of another human being.

Joe Rogan 20:57 Right. And also, you don't know her, so you're disassociated.

Amanda Knox 21:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:01 Right? Like, if she was your friend and you did that, you'd have to be a special kind of monster.

Amanda Knox 21:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:05 Like that woman, Linda Tripp-

Amanda Knox 21:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:07 ... who did it all. That's a-

Amanda Knox 21:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:08 ... special kind of monster.

Amanda Knox 21:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Special kind of monster who trots that out to the whole world to try to take down Bill Clinton.

Amanda Knox 21:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:16 You know, which didn't even work.

Amanda Knox 21:17 No, and that's what's fascinating. It, it worked to destroy Monica. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:21 Right. But also, like, you, when you look at Bill, uh, Bill Clinton, this, uh, handsome president, and then you look at Linda Tripp, who was very unattractive, that's also plays in, like, "I wanna take him down too."

Amanda Knox 21:34 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:35 "And probably I wanna take her down as well." Like, there's a lot of, like, "Fuck, fuck everybody else."

Amanda Knox 21:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:40 There's a lot of that. You know, when you're, you know, you're unseen-

Amanda Knox 21:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:43 ... to use the same vernacular, you know?

Amanda Knox 21:45 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:45 And then you see, like, other people getting attention, and it's just, like, the fact that she did it and she knew her, and she... But also, this is like, this is the game of cards that they're playing. This is house of cards. This is, you know, that, this is literally what they do anytime they have a chance in the-

Amanda Knox 22:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:04 ... political realm-

Amanda Knox 22:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:05 ... to use any weapon.

Amanda Knox 22:06 Any window, any vulnerability.

Joe Rogan 22:08 Anything.

Amanda Knox 22:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:08 It's the dirtiest game in the world.

Amanda Knox 22:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:11 It's a disgusting game, you know? And if you get sucked into it, you'll find that out, you know? It's just-

Amanda Knox 22:17 I don't want anything to do with it.

Joe Rogan 22:18 Yeah. It's the most evil. It's really is. Like, when I see people that are running for president, I'm like, "What are you doing?"

Amanda Knox 22:25 I know. I- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:25 Like, why would you do that to yourself?

Amanda Knox 22:27 Yeah, and then you have to spend the rest of your life, like, with, you know, Secret Service-

Joe Rogan 22:31 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 22:32 ... following you around, so, so you can't exist in the world-

Joe Rogan 22:34 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 22:34 ... as a normal human being. Like, that... I, I do feel like there is a... You have to be a special kind of person in order to be attracted to something like that.

Joe Rogan 22:45 Yeah, and op-

Amanda Knox 22:45 I'm not.

Joe Rogan 22:46 And ironically, that's, the kind of person that's attracted to that, in general, is not the kind of person you want in a leadership position.

Amanda Knox 22:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:55 (coughs) You know, which is like, "Wow, what do we do, though?"

Amanda Knox 22:58 Yeah, yeah, so is democracy, uh, completely and utterly flawed because it relies upon the ambition of, uh, the wrong people?

Joe Rogan 23:08 Or heroes, or legitimate heroes. Like, someone who's like, "You know, I'm gonna tolerate this. I'm gonna carry the burden of this on my back because I think I can help people."

Amanda Knox 23:17 D- But does anyone ever, like, actually arrive at the pre- like, at the seat of the president as that person? Like-

Joe Rogan 23:26 I, here's the question. Do they stay that person? 'Cause I used to think Obama was that person.

Amanda Knox 23:31 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:31 I really did, you know? I was like, "Wow, we got a good one." You know? And then-

Amanda Knox 23:35 Yeah, I was sad I missed out on that.

Joe Rogan 23:38 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 23:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:38 It was pretty cool, but in l- retrospect, you know, when looking back, like, probably not really. Like, probably got corrupted by the system or was corrupt originally-

Amanda Knox 23:51 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:52 ... you know, and is now willing to openly lie.

Amanda Knox 23:55 God.

Joe Rogan 23:56 Yeah. It's, uh, it's dark. It's dark. You know, and I think, um...It's just a... It's, it's a strange social position that I don't think is manageable for anyone. I don't think the human mind is prepared to be in that kind of a position of power and not have it completely distort-

Amanda Knox 24:22 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:22 ... what you are. And then there's the relationships that you have to have with all of these various politicians, and then special interest groups and lobbyists and, and foreign leaders. And then-

Amanda Knox 24:33 Yeah, how do you manage all of that?

Joe Rogan 24:35 ... heads of defense contracting companies. Like, what?

Joe Rogan 24:40 (sighs) Yeah.

Amanda Knox 24:41 Hmm. Can I tell you a story?

Joe Rogan 24:45 Yes, please.

Amanda Knox 24:46 Okay, so this story didn't actually make it in my book, but it is one that I wanted to tell you because it, it talks about how my weird relationship with other people who are in positions of power, like police officers, right? Like, you know, I'm a, I'm an advocate of criminal justice reform. Um, I talk a lot about, like, I go and testify in front of my, you know, state congress, trying to get certain laws passed to protect, you know, innocent people. And one thing that I like to point out is that I'm not anti law enforcement. Um, and if anything, I was a victim of crime before I became a victim of the criminal justice system. Like, someone broke into my home and raped and murdered my roommate, and then I called the cops, and then the cops went on to betray me. And, but that doesn't mean that there isn't like... I'm not one of those, you know, "Fuck all the police. We don't need them. You know, abolish the whole system." That's not what I believe. Um, but as someone who has had this complicated experience with police, um, I don't really know what to do when something bad goes down. And I want to tell you a story about something bad that went down. Um, it was in LA. I was staying at a friend's house with my husband and our two kids. We were doing work down there. And our friends were not there, but, um, in the middle of the night, we hear someone yelling out in the, you know, out in the street. We think there's some drunk guy out there, but it gets closer and closer and closer, until finally, there is a huge bang. Um, and my husband gets up in his tighty whiteys and says one thing to me, "Call the police," before he marches downstairs. We were upstairs in the second story, and we hear a bang, we hear yelling. He goes down there in his underwear, and I don't know if the last thing I'm ever going to hear from my husband at that point is, "Call the police," (laughs) which is an interesting final words to get from the love of your life when you're me. And my, my, you know, infant son is crying. My, you know, two-year-old daughter at the time is going, "What's going on?" And I'm trying to calm him while reassure her while looking around the room thinking, "How do I barricade a door and can I jump out of a window with two small children?" All of that before I think, "Dial 911." Because the last time that I dialed the equivalent of 911 to call for help, I got thrown into prison. I realize that there's nothing I can do to protect my kids, so I call 911, and eventually, you know, my husband is able to get this intruder to leave the house. Um, the police arrive, and I have a very strange encounter with them because they are very nice to me, and I was not expecting that, and they are very nice to my daughter, and they give her a nice little, you know, police badge, and I'm sitting here thinking, "Great. Now, I'm going to have to throw a police-themed birthday party for her 'cause now she's going to be super into police." And I'm just like, "What is happening to my life?" And I'm scared that they're going to recognize me and I'm scared that they're going to think maybe she faked a break-in. Like, all of that is going on in my head and I don't know how to resolve that. Uh, you know, somebody broke into... I have, you know, broke into my home once, murdered my roommate, broke into the place I was staying again, thankfully didn't murder anybody. But like, how do I make sense of my relationship with people who are empowered to protect me but also are empowered to hurt me? What do I do about that? You tell me (laughs) , Joe.

Joe Rogan 29:01 That's hard.

Amanda Knox 29:02 What do I do?

Joe Rogan 29:03 There's no way I could know what's going through your mind, you know. The, the experience that you had is... Th- the, no one can even pretend to have those thoughts in their head because this is not just paranoid fantasy. This is, this is your actual lived experience for years. Yeah, it's a good question. What, what had happened? Like, the bang, was it someone kicking down the door?

Amanda Knox 29:33 Yeah, he had kicked in the door through the deadbolt.

Joe Rogan 29:36 What was the yelling?

Amanda Knox 29:37 The yelling was, he was just, uh-

Joe Rogan 29:40 Schizophrenic?

Amanda Knox 29:41 Yeah, he, he thought that he, someone had stole that house from him, and he was yelling for some name of a person who didn't live there. Clearly was just like either confused or mentally ill in some capacity, um, but, and thankfully not armed, but like, my husband didn't know when he walked down the stairs in his underwear-

Joe Rogan 30:04 Wow (sighs) .

Amanda Knox 30:05 ... without any-And, like, he grabbed a broom on his way down, and that wa-

Joe Rogan 30:09 Oh, Jesus.

Amanda Knox 30:09 He was between putting himself and a broom between whoever this person was who had just kicked in the front door through the deadbolt and his family. Um, and that might have been the last time I ever saw him.

Joe Rogan 30:23 Oh.

Amanda Knox 30:23 You know? And I did not know what to do. I try to, like, joke about it now, where... Yeah, I actually did a standup bit about it a while back, about how I was, like, testing my butt to see if it was bouncy enough to, like, jump out of the window and bounce. But, like, I, when I think back on it, it's just, it's still scary. You know? Um, and, and I don't, I don't like how I feel right now, that when I'm scared, I'm supposed to call the police, but I'm also scared to call the police.

Joe Rogan 30:59 Jesus.

Amanda Knox 31:01 And so-

Joe Rogan 31:02 (exhales)

Amanda Knox 31:02 ... you know, when I go and do advocacy work for, you know... I'm, I'm now on the board of a organization called the Innocence Center, um, innocencecenter.org, which by the way, just got a bunch of federal funding, uh, taken away. Thanks, Elon. Um, you'd think that they would be interested in supporting organizations that clean up the messes of the criminal justice system, but apparently not. Um, so if you want to support us, innocencecenter.org. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:33 How did they... What, what happened that they got their funding taken away? What, what was the circumstances? Like...

Amanda Knox 31:40 Uh, I mean, there, there's a federal funding that is designed for innocence organizations, and I think... What I heard is that there are certain words that sort of became taboo within the, um, administration, that if you were using these words or these terminologies that they associate with, like, DEI, that then their... That sort of puts you on the list of being cut for federal funding. And one of those words was, like, the word fair. And in a organization that is interested in justice and for, in getting innocent people out of prison, the word fair is going (laughs) to come up quite a bit.

Joe Rogan 32:21 So, is it just an algorithm? They're just scanning the mission statement of whatever these organizations are?

Amanda Knox 32:27 Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a first, a first step, is they'll just use this... They're gonna use algorithms and AI to help them identify potential things to cut. And I think as a, as a new innocence organization, we were considered not worthy of the federal funding that we have relied on and to help innocent people. And now we're-

Joe Rogan 32:50 Are you one of the founders of this organization?

Amanda Knox 32:52 Me? No, I'm on the board. Um-

Joe Rogan 32:54 You're on the board.

Amanda Knox 32:55 But yes, this is, um, formally the California Innocence Project that has since sort of turned into the Innocence Center. But you'll see, you're seeing this all across the board-

Joe Rogan 33:04 Okay.

Amanda Knox 33:05 ... of innocence projects, of getting their federal funding taken away.

Joe Rogan 33:08 And there's no accusations of impropriety or misuse of funds or-

Amanda Knox 33:13 Nope.

Joe Rogan 33:13 ... high salaries for certain individuals or-

Amanda Knox 33:17 Nope.

Joe Rogan 33:17 Nothing?

Amanda Knox 33:18 Nope. Just it's deprioritized because I think we're considered leftist organizations, potentially. I don't know. Um, but I know that, like, I al- have always thought that innocence and getting... and justice were bipartisan issues, and I thought that we had been making great, you know, strides in, in sort of welcoming in both liberal and conservative partners in this ongoing fight. But because these sort of, these things disproportionately impact people of color, you're going to see language around that that acknowledges that fact, and I think that that has been sort of put in... We are... Innocence organizations are now being put into DEI camps, and we're being stripped of funding. And I think that that's... Uh, I hope (laughs) that that's an oversight issue, um, and that they're going to recognize the mistake that they're making. But as it stands right now, innocence organizations, not just the one that I'm associated with, are scrambling to get the funding that they were promised to continue doing, you know, doing the things that cost money, like filing, you know, filing all of their work and, and going through all of the case work and doing the DNA tests and doing investigations to see if you can reach the witnesses that maybe have changed their stories in all these years. It takes a lot of money and resources to prove a person's innocence. You have to reinvestigate a case, and we're, we don't, we don't have the funding that we, we used to.

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Joe Rogan 36:17 I do a lot of work with Josh Dubin.

Amanda Knox 36:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:20 And ... You know Josh?

Amanda Knox 36:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:21 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 36:21 I mean, I've never met him personally, but ...

Joe Rogan 36:23 He's with the... Uh, he was with the Innocence Project and now he's with the Ike Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice.

Amanda Knox 36:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 36:31 And same kind of work. Ironically, Ike Perlmutter is very close friends with Trump.

Amanda Knox 36:36 Huh.

Joe Rogan 36:36 And so ... Yeah.

Amanda Knox 36:37 I mean, I would have thought that that would have been of interest to Trump, considering-

Joe Rogan 36:42 I think it's a baby with the bathwater type deal.

Amanda Knox 36:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:45 Where there's a lot of what you would call almost, like, slush fund NGOs where they're inappropriately moving funds around and doing stuff. And I don't know if you've ever seen any of Mike Benz's work, but he essentially says that USAID is really there to do things that are too dirty for the CIA.

Amanda Knox 37:06 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:06 So, the extraordinary amount of money that was being moved around, there's a certain percentage of it that was inappropriately being used.

Amanda Knox 37:16 I imagine so, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:17 Yes.

Amanda Knox 37:17 Sure.

Joe Rogan 37:18 An enormous percentage. Uh, there's, it's a lot of money- but unfortunately, there's a lot of good that also is coming out of that money. And that's what's difficult. It's like, you know, when you round up, uh, all the "gang members," right, and you fly them to El Salvador, are you sure-

Amanda Knox 37:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:40 ... they're all gang members, or do you care?

Amanda Knox 37:42 Right, exactly.

Joe Rogan 37:43 Right.

Amanda Knox 37:43 And I think that's-

Joe Rogan 37:44 Do you care or is it just like, "We're just here to clean things up, and if-"

Amanda Knox 37:47 And if we throw innocent-

Joe Rogan 37:48 "Break a few eggs to make an omelet."

Amanda Knox 37:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:50 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 37:50 Are, are innocent people the price of us getting to be efficient-

Joe Rogan 37:56 Don't become a monster when you're fighting monsters.

Amanda Knox 37:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:58 You know.

Amanda Knox 37:59 And, and that's what I think we're, we're brushing up against right now. And, um, and as someone who really is, like, just interested in keeping ... Especially this issue, like, this is a human, like, we all, we all should be on the same side about this.

Joe Rogan 38:15 100%.

Amanda Knox 38:16 (laughs) Um ...

Joe Rogan 38:16 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 38:17 Why ... Like, why is it being turned into this, a left or right issue, and why-

Joe Rogan 38:22 Well, maybe I can get this in front of Josh, and he can present it to some people and, you know, have them reconsider their position.

Amanda Knox 38:31 That would be great. I, I would ... You know, and if you need, put me in contact.

Joe Rogan 38:35 Yeah, we're-

Amanda Knox 38:35 Like, I would be happy to ...

Joe Rogan 38:37 You know, o- one of the things through working with Josh and, you know, just through this podcast, we've gotten a lot of people released, um, that were wrongfully convicted. And, you know, when you go over the amount of corruption that's involved, and ... I, I think there's an issue with, uh, human beings whenever there's a, a binary position, a one or zero, you win or you lose.

Amanda Knox 39:05 Yes. The adversarial system-

Joe Rogan 39:07 The ... Yes.

Amanda Knox 39:07 Where it's like, I have to be, I have to win this side-

Joe Rogan 39:10 Right.

Amanda Knox 39:10 ... and I cannot at all, like, acknowledge some truth that might be to the other side.

Joe Rogan 39:15 Right.

Amanda Knox 39:15 Like ...

Joe Rogan 39:15 And then you have this game where you hire ... Like, if you were a guilty person, you hire the best defense attorneys that probably even know you're guilty, but their job is to get you off by any means necessary to-

Amanda Knox 39:29 Well, their job is to pr- make the government prove your guilt, right? That's what a, technically a defense attorney who's really good is ...

Joe Rogan 39:36 Yeah, but that's not really what they're doing.

Amanda Knox 39:38 Yeah. (laughs) Fair.

Joe Rogan 39:38 (laughs) They're trying to, they're trying to get you out of jail.

Amanda Knox 39:39 Fair. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah. The goal being-

Joe Rogan 39:42 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 39:42 ... if you can't actually prove it, then ...

Joe Rogan 39:44 Well, their goal

Joe Rogan 39:45 is to win as often as possible so that they're the person, like this, this is the guy you want.

Amanda Knox 39:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:51 You know?

Amanda Knox 39:51 Although I have talked to some really interesting defense attorneys, um, uh, f- uh, the defense attorneys who represented Larry Nassar, for example, um, famously, for those who don't remember, was, uh, molesting young gymnasts.

Joe Rogan 40:07 Oh.

Amanda Knox 40:07 You remember him?

Joe Rogan 40:08 Yeah, the Olympics guy, yeah.

Amanda Knox 40:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:10 Ugh.

Amanda Knox 40:10 And I, I interviewed them because it was two women who represented him, and so a lot of people were like, "How dare you represent this man? As a woman, how could you?" And their position was, "Well, we didn't represent him to prove him innocent. We, we had him plead guilty to these crimes. We just feel that everyone deserves to have a, you know, a defender. We're, we're, we're defenders. We re- we represent people in, in, in the law." And they were getting, like, demonized for even taking him on as a client. And I thought that was interesting because they weren't trying to get him off. They were just trying to have ... To, to represent due process.

Joe Rogan 40:50 Mm.

Amanda Knox 40:50 And I, I felt like that was a really interesting case of people confusing the, the ... What, what is the role of a defense attorney. And I think you're right. Like, some defense attorneys really don't care (laughs) if their clients are, are guilty or innocent because they are also in this adversarial system.

Joe Rogan 41:09 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 41:09 And so they are also in this position of just wanting to win and, and wanting to make the lives of, you know, law enforcement difficult. And they're willing to throw victims under the bus in the process. Like, I've had really frank conversations with, um, with friends of mine in the, in the innocence world where they talk about how they were trained to just destroy a victim in order to, to diminish their credibility in court and, and to really put them in a, a really bad position so they didn't want to pursue justice for themselves. And I think that ... And they look back and go, "Oh my God, I can't believe that that's how I was trained to be a defense attorney." But like, that was just part of the game, and I think that's where this whole course of justice gets completely distorted.

Joe Rogan 41:57 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 41:57 Because it's like, well, what is the, what is the point of all of this? Like, it should be about, like, arriving at the truth-

Joe Rogan 42:04 Right.

Amanda Knox 42:04 ... and, and then doing ... And then having there be, like, some recognized consequences for acknowledging what really happened.

Joe Rogan 42:11 Right.

Amanda Knox 42:11 Like, we need to address the issue, which is somebody got hurt by someone else. What do we do? Now what? And instead, it's become, well ...I'm gonna win it. Like, I'm on this team, you're on this team, fight, fight, fight. Let's see who wins. And as a result, the, the whole issue of truth gets distorted and, and becomes about making the best story that, that captures the people's attention, and I think, uh, I mean, that was a huge lesson for me, was realizing that, like, the truth didn't matter. Like, nobody cared about the truth. They cared about the story, and was it a story that spoke to them, and was it a story that lingered for them? And that's, you know, an ongoing thing that I, I, I write about is like, "Okay, here's this crazy story that is not true, that took over my life, and that still has this huge role." Like, I'm still in conversation with that crazy story that was written about me, and, and the fact that, like, my entire identity is now wrapped up in the death of my friend that I had nothing to do with, and I'll forever be defined by because it's such a captivating story.

Joe Rogan 43:23 And because the prosecutor was dead set on winning and wasn't necessarily interested in the truth.

Amanda Knox 43:33 What he says, and it's very in- c- it's, again, it goes back to, like, what are we telling ourselves and what is, what is the cognitive bias? And I think this is where it gets super interesting, because winning is interpreted in some people's minds as doing their duty, right? Like, the way that my prosecutor has always talked about it with me is that he maintains that he was doing his duty. He, this was his job. His job was to make a case that made logical sense to him based upon certain premises, and then to win that case in court. That was his job. That was his duty, and he believes that he was doing the right thing because that w- that's what he was trained and incentivized to do. In the same way that like, you know, journalists, if you ask journalists back, uh, who covered the case back in the day, they'll be like, "Well, we were doing our job. Our job was to sell the best story that we could to our audience."

Joe Rogan 44:45 Ugh.

Amanda Knox 44:45 And, right? And, but, and so that's when it gets, like, fucked up 'cause, like, how, how have our institutions that we've relied on to be truth-seeking institutions been corrupted from the inside by ultimately what is a question of, like, money or, or power? Um, when politics gets brought into the c- the equation with criminal justice, suddenly, you know, your prosecutor is now wanting to win cases, not because they're the right cases to win, but because they wanna be elected. Like, all of that gets distorted, and, and the, the motivations behind all our institutions become warped.

Joe Rogan 45:23 Well, the,

Joe Rogan 45:24 but, but the, with the media, it's even more disgusting because it's not about politics. It's literally just about getting people to pay attention to their story-

Amanda Knox 45:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:33 ... and buy newspapers or click on links.

Amanda Knox 45:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:36 That's it.

Amanda Knox 45:36 Right. And then they hold, then they hold their-

Joe Rogan 45:39 (clears throat)

Amanda Knox 45:39 ... the audience accountable for the kinds of stories that they are then incentivized to write. They say, "Well, you know, I wouldn't have been writing this story if you weren't clicking on it."

Joe Rogan 45:48 Oh, that's-

Amanda Knox 45:48 And it's-

Joe Rogan 45:49 ... that's crazy.

Amanda Knox 45:49 ... and it's just, like, this vicious cycle.

Joe Rogan 45:50 (clears throat) That's crazy. That's like, "I wouldn't have robbed your house if you didn't have nice stuff."

Amanda Knox 45:53 Exactly. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 45:54 That's fucking crazy. Yeah.

Amanda Knox 45:56 But, like, that's how, if you're in that little echo chamber of a system, and that's what your reward structure is, of course that's what you're gonna end up delivering if you're somebody who's not, who doesn't have the introspection to question, like, "Okay, wait, what am I doing, and what is the point of all of this?" And, "Do you have certain principles?" But again, the people who rise to the top are maybe the ones who are willing to question those principles in order to achieve certain ends.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 46:20 Yeah, and then there's also the problem with you're working for a corporation if you're in the news. If you're not an independent journalist who has, like, rock solid personal ethics, you're working for a corporation-

Amanda Knox 46:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:31 ... and your job is to make money for your shareholders ultimately.

Amanda Knox 46:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:35 And the way you do that is to get as many people to click on those links as possible.

Amanda Knox 46:38 And maybe the person who's on the ground has a certain vision for what they want their, like, on-the-ground reporting to do, but then once it gets in the hands of editors and other editors-

Joe Rogan 46:48 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda Knox 46:48 ... like, it becomes completely warped from the thing-

Joe Rogan 46:50 (clears throat) Oh, boy.

Amanda Knox 46:50 ... that they were originally reporting on because the person who's over here is so divorced from the actual on-the-ground story, and they know instead the story that's going to sell.

Joe Rogan 47:00 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 47:01 So.

Joe Rogan 47:01 Yeah, it's dark. I mean, it's the same sort of distortion. Excuse me. (clears throat)

Amanda Knox 47:07 Salute.

Joe Rogan 47:08 Sorry. It's the same sort of distortion, um, when, when you were talking about prosecutors, um, just trying to win. It's this, it's this thing where, and, uh, ultimately, it's, it's a, it's a, a severe distortion of what the best case scenario is. The best case scenario is prosecutors don't care about winning. They care about finding truly guilty people, and in cases where someone, whether they, uh, withhold evidence that could have exonerated an innocent person or whether they distort things or twist things around in order to win, they should be forever removed from that system. You should never be allowed to do that. But this is, Kamala Harris did that and rose to be vice president and almost became president.

Amanda Knox 48:04 I know. I know.

Joe Rogan 48:04 And she is absolutely guilty of doing that.

Amanda Knox 48:07 Yeah, I know. It's-

Joe Rogan 48:08 She tried to withheld, withhold DNA evidence that would have exonerated someone.

Amanda Knox 48:13 I know.

Joe Rogan 48:13 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 48:13 But she was not a popular choice among the innocence (laughs) community. I'll tell you that.

Joe Rogan 48:18 Oh, yeah.

Amanda Knox 48:19 (laughs) That was-

Joe Rogan 48:19 No, Josh Dubin broke her down on my show, but when she was running for president.

Amanda Knox 48:23 Oh, were they here together?

Joe Rogan 48:23 No.

Amanda Knox 48:24 Oh, okay, no. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:25 No, no, no, he broke down what she was guilty of when she was a prosecutor in California.

Amanda Knox 48:30 Yeah, no, it, it wasn't-And that's why I was so mad that our party never actually gave us a choice.

Joe Rogan 48:36 Right.

Amanda Knox 48:36 Um...

Joe Rogan 48:37 Right, there was no primary.

Amanda Knox 48:38 No, there was no primary.

Joe Rogan 48:39 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 48:39 They were just like, "Here's the person now." And we were like-

Joe Rogan 48:41 And if you don't vote for her, you're a bad person.

Amanda Knox 48:42 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 48:43 You're a fascist.

Amanda Knox 48:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 48:44 Yeah, okay.

Amanda Knox 48:45 Yeah. No, it was... That- that... This whole, like, past-

Joe Rogan 48:48 But then again, that's also just trying to win.

Amanda Knox 48:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:51 (clears throat) It's the same kinda thing. It's just the- the focus is on winning-

Amanda Knox 48:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:55 At what cost?

Amanda Knox 48:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:56 I mean, and then that's a very slippery slope, 'cause if you're willing to accept that, guess what? Guess what? That- that slope keeps slippin'.

Amanda Knox 49:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:05 And then next thing you know, you know?

Amanda Knox 49:06 Yeah, you don't have brakes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:08 Right. You have to put a fucking blinder on because you're- you're a part of the problem. You're a part of what's destroying society. So then you have to, like, reshape your own personal narrative and lie to yourself about what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Amanda Knox 49:20 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:20 And you find a lot of that.

Amanda Knox 49:21 It- it... A little bit of, like, self-brainwashing.

Joe Rogan 49:23 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 49:23 Um...

Joe Rogan 49:24 (clears throat)

Amanda Knox 49:25 And that fascinates me. Like, in conversations with my prosecutor, how- how has he convinced himself that he's the good guy, and- and how has that changed when I have approached him not as an adversary, but as someone who is... Uh, I wouldn't say, like, tolerant, because I've never put myself in a position of sort of saying, "Oh, what you did was not a big deal." Like, when I approached him, I was like, "What you did was a big deal, and you were wrong, and you hurt people." But, like, acknowledging his humanity and the complexity of him, and acknowledging that, like, he's not an evil person. Um...

Joe Rogan 50:11 Well, what is evil? If you're doing-

Amanda Knox 50:13 Intentional- intentional malice, maybe?

Joe Rogan 50:15 That seems

Joe Rogan 50:16 like he was doing it intentionally, if he was paying attention to the facts of the case. I mean, there was DNA evidence. There was all sorts of stuff that pointed to you not being the guilty party-

Amanda Knox 50:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:27 ... and they ignored that. If that's not evil...

Amanda Knox 50:30 I mean, what he did, it's interesting. Um, he wrote a whole book about the case, and he talked about how when he first arrived at- at the scene, he immediately knew that it was a conspiracy. Because he looked at the- the broken window, how the person had actually broken into our home, and said, "There's no way, zero chance, that a burglar would have broken into a house this way." He just was, like, 100% convinced that, immediately, that the break-in was staged. And if you take that, i- if you, in your brain, truly believe that...

Joe Rogan 51:11 (sighs)

Amanda Knox 51:11 ... then what logically follows is a lot of what he then came up with. Well, someone in the house is trying to cover up for a crime that they were involved in. Who lives in that house? Well, there are three other girls, one of whom was in Rome, one of whom is another Italian girl who was with her boyfriend and friends, and one of whom is the American girl who was with her boyfriend that night, but who also happened to be the one who called the police and brought attention to the house, so maybe because we found her at the scene of the crime, ma-... Like, all of it sort of starts to, like, make logical sense if you begin with a false premise.

Joe Rogan 51:50 How did he reconcile that in the book?

Amanda Knox 51:52 In his book?

Joe Rogan 51:52 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 51:53 I mean, he-

Joe Rogan 51:54 Because he's-

Amanda Knox 51:55 ... he makes logical leaps. So he goes, "Okay, well, then we discovered that, you know, all of this DNA of the person who actually committed the crime," right? Like, you know, they- they finally get the DNA back, and it's all pointing to this guy who has a history of breaking and entering and a- and aggression towards women. And he doesn't go, "Oh, no, we made a mistake." He goes, "Oh, how can now he be involved in this thing that I know Amanda's involved in because I know the break-in was staged?" And, you know, like, so these- the- this is how a person with good- with genuinely good intentions can- can have false beliefs that then logic- from which one can logically derive an insane story that requires, like, him to now believe, like... One of the things that I pointed out to him that just, like, drives me nuts that he continues to, like, somehow hang onto is this idea that I was in a threesome with... Like, I was in a three-way relationship with my actual boyfriend, Raphaelle, and this burglar, Rudy Guede. And I was like, "Where are you coming up with that?" And he was like, "Well, uh, whenever I interviewed Rudy..." Like, he talks about interviewing, you know, interrogating Rudy. "Rudy always seemed to have affectionate things to say about you. He always seemed to, like, be interested in you. And from that, I can logically deduce that you guys had a relationship." But I was like-

Joe Rogan 53:21 (laughs)

Amanda Knox 53:21 ... we- we... Like, I didn't even know his name. There's no record of us ever communicating with each other. No one ever, like, saw us hanging out with each other. Like, "What are you talking about?" And he's like, "Well, if he was involved in the crime, and you're involved in the crime, and he's sort of talking about, you know, you in an affectionate way, then logically it makes sense that you were in this, you know, three-way relationship with Raphaelle and Rudy." And I'm like, "That's not true." And he's like, "Well, that's what it's- that's what made logical sense to me at the time."

Amanda Knox 53:50 And-

Joe Rogan 53:50 I think the issue is an egotistic idiot that has power. That's really what I think it is, 'cause I think if someone-

Amanda Knox 53:59 It's certainly someone who has a belief and a confidence in their own abilities as a logical thinker. And I think anyone who is in that kinda position has to believe in themself in that kind of way, like-

Joe Rogan 54:13 But not just that. Like, you have too much power. Like-

Amanda Knox 54:16 Fair.

Joe Rogan 54:16 ... there's not enough oversight. You have too much power. And then, you say something, and i- if your initial assertion is incorrect, you then have to defend it. So then, you do mental gymnastics-

Amanda Knox 54:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:26 ... to try to defend it-

Amanda Knox 54:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:27 ... at the expense of your fucking life.

Amanda Knox 54:30 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:30 He was willing to put you away forever. Like, he had to know. At some point in time, in the back of his stupid brain, he had to know that you were innocent, and he was willing to push forward and concoct some sort of a-... three-way relationship narrative they still sticks to. Fuck that guy.

Amanda Knox 54:48 (laughs) Well, and, and sometimes that's what my brain says. You know? Sometimes I-

Joe Rogan 54:53 Your brain should say that.

Amanda Knox 54:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:54 You know? I mean, forgiveness is really important, but some people you just can't forgive. Like some people it's like, no, you need to come to grips with the fact that you're a piece of shit.

Amanda Knox 55:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:05 That's what's wrong here. It's not me forgiving you and you having this hall pass to just to be a piece of shit, because you had this theory that you're still accusing me of. No. That's, that's not... You're bad at what you do. And sometimes people are bad at what they do. Sometimes you get bad teachers, you get bad cops, sometimes, uh, you get a bad electrician, your house catches fire.

Amanda Knox 55:30 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:30 Some p- some people suck at what they do, and to like have this like eternal forgiveness, (claps hands) like sometimes it's not smart to do that.

Amanda Knox 55:39 (laughs) Well, certainly. And I, and I think that's really-

Joe Rogan 55:41 Is he still working as a prosecutor?

Amanda Knox 55:42 No, no. He's retired. He, he has retired. Yes.

Joe Rogan 55:44 He should be in jail.

Amanda Knox 55:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:47 Like literally.

Amanda Knox 55:47 I do not wish jail upon him. I don't think- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:50 Okay. That's sweet. But that's crime. Like what he did, it was not just a crime, but it was a conspiracy.

Amanda Knox 55:57 Yeah. I, I, um, I would have to say that I agree that there sh-... I always wanted to... I always wondered where the adults were in the room. Like, uh, you know, the whole first two years of my imprisonment, I was like, "This is all a huge mistake, and it's really obviously a huge mistake." And when are, when are like the mommies and daddies gonna show up and say, "Okay, kids. Stop your squabbling. Like let's straighten things out." And I-

Joe Rogan 56:25 There's no mommies and daddies.

Amanda Knox 56:26 There are no mommies and daddies.

Joe Rogan 56:27 There are no... Yeah.

Amanda Knox 56:27 That's the thing that's freaked me out.

Joe Rogan 56:29 That's the thing. Yeah.

Amanda Knox 56:29 Is like we're all adults now-

Joe Rogan 56:31 Right.

Amanda Knox 56:31 ... and this is all we are. We're just a bunch of screaming toddlers-

Joe Rogan 56:35 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 56:35 ... just screaming at each other constantly. And here I am now, I feel, in a way, trying to mother my prosecutor through his, you know, psychological tantrums.

Joe Rogan 56:51 Ugh.

Amanda Knox 56:52 Um, which is a weird position to be in, um, because now that I've, you know, developed the relationship that I've developed with him, I, I ca-... Like I care about him. Uh, like I don't think that you can... I, I set out to understand him. I wanted to understand him, but in the process of, like, really understanding a human being and having them, like, be really open to you, I don't know. I, I feel like y- you inevitably begin to care about this person, even in their, you know, flawed fragility as a human being. And so on the one hand, I'm very angry at him to this day, and on the other hand, I, I care about him and I have to give him some props. He didn't have to respond to me.

Joe Rogan 57:50 Hmm.

Amanda Knox 57:50 He didn't have to meet with me. He didn't have to sit there and hear me talk about how he had fucked up my life and he shouldn't have. I did not like... It's not that... Like me being kind to him does not mean me tolerating injustice. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:10 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 58:10 And it does not mean me not setting boundaries, and it does not mean me sugarcoating what really happened. Like he knows what I think (laughs) really happened, and he says, "Well, you know, we can disagree about our perspectives in some, in some ways. But ultimately, what matters is that you reached out to me and saw me as a human being. And in response, I, like, I also inevitably came to see you as a human being and I care about you." And, and so in a way, like we're still in this awkward dance of like one part of us is stuck in that adversarial system, and one part of us is in a non, you know, adversarial, very like accepting of all the things space. And we're paradoxically existing in both of them at the same time. And I think that that's just kinda how life is.

Joe Rogan 59:11 Hmm.

Amanda Knox 59:12 Like, you know, one of the paradoxes of life is that, like if you really just sit down and, and sit with yourself and your life just the way it is right now, if you really do just like notice, like right now, you and me, here we are talking, we are okay. You and me, we are good. And also, there's still fucked up shit in my life, and there's still fucked up shit in your life, and, and things could be better, and all of those things can be true at the same time.

Joe Rogan 59:40 Hmm.

Amanda Knox 59:40 Like, you know, I'm still fighting to clear (laughs) my name in Italy. I don't know if you... Have you kept up with like the latest with my case?

Joe Rogan 59:48 No.

Amanda Knox 59:48 Oh, yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 59:50 Still?

Amanda Knox 59:50 So I've been cleared of like all the crazy, you know, horrible murder, orgy, all of that stuff, cleared. The thing that remains, and this is just the bane of my fucking existence, is when they cleared me of having anything to do with the crime, they left open the possibility that I was present when the crime occurred. And I believe the reason that they did this was because they wanted to find me guilty of something, and the thing that they found me guilty of was the way lesser crime on the list of all the crimes that were there, which was slander. They accused me of knowingly and willingly falsely accusing an innocent person of having committed this crime, because during my interrogation, I was coerced into implicating myself and my boss, Patrick Lumumba, of...... of committing this crime. And I immediately retracted it, all of that, but that was one of the things that they were holding me accountable for. And they, to this day, I am still convicted in Italy of knowingly and willingly accusing an innocent man. And for me to knowingly and willingly accuse this innocent man, I would have to have been at the house and known who really was the murderer at the moment that I falsely accused this innocent person. Like, I would've had to know that he was definitively innocent for this to be the case. And for that to be true, I would have to be physically present at the crime, even if I was not participating in it. So the legal standing right now, to this day, is that I was there, and that when I was interrogated, I knowingly and falsely accused an innocent person. I appealed this, by the way, to the European Court of Human Rights, and they ruled in my favor. They said that because I had been denied the right of, to have an attorney and an, an interpreter when I was being interrogated, that none of that should ever have been, I should never have been convicted of that. And I took that back to Italy. I took that ruling back to Italy, and they overturned it. I was actually acquitted of that for a second, but then sent back for retrial recently. (laughs) And recently, yeah, this is 18 years later, recently was put back on trial for that, this was last year, and I was found guilty again.

Narrator 1:02:26 Oh my God.

Amanda Knox 1:02:27 On the basis, not even of the statements that the police, like, coerced me into signing, but on my retraction. So I hand wrote a retraction of those statements that the police coerced me into signing, and I was like, "I'm so confused, I can't testify, like, I, I, I don't know if Patrick did it or not, like I just don't know." And they said, "Well, even a confused statement where you're not sure what the truth is, if you were physically present at the crime, is, is slander, and you falsely accused an, an innocent man that you knew to be innocent." And so-

Narrator 1:02:58 But they have no proof that you were there.

Amanda Knox 1:03:00 Exactly. So we're in this, like, cyclical thing where they're like-

Narrator 1:03:03 They just don't wanna admit that they fucked up.

Amanda Knox 1:03:05 That's what I think. And I'm at this point where I'm like, "Okay, now what?" Because I'm definitively convicted of this thing, and, like, the legal truth in this case does not represent the actual truth in this case. (laughs)

Narrator 1:03:19 Are, are they trying to protect themselves from some sort of a civil suit?

Amanda Knox 1:03:23 Maybe. Um, I think even more than that, I think they're trying to protect themselves from admitting that they tortured an innocent-

Narrator 1:03:32 Oh my God.

Amanda Knox 1:03:33 ... person.

Narrator 1:03:33 Oh my God. So, so they can say, "Well, she is guilty. She did do this."

Amanda Knox 1:03:38 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 1:03:39 "She's a guilty person."

Amanda Knox 1:03:39 And so it's not crazy for us to think that-

Narrator 1:03:42 Right.

Amanda Knox 1:03:42 ... she might have been involved in the, in the murder-

Narrator 1:03:44 Or was there-

Amanda Knox 1:03:44 ... because here she is, is, ex-

Narrator 1:03:46 ... at least. She probably lied about being there and-

Amanda Knox 1:03:48 Yeah.

Narrator 1:03:48 Jesus Christ.

Amanda Knox 1:03:49 And all they were ever able to do was prove that I lived in the house that this happened in. Like, sure, my DNA is in my house, it's not anywhere near Meredith's body or where the crime occurred, but they're saying that, like, I was there. And th- it's sort of this, like, cyclical sort of reasoning, like, "Amanda said she was there, therefore she was there, therefore she said she wa-" you know, like-

Narrator 1:04:11 Ugh.

Amanda Knox 1:04:12 ... it's this, like, insane cyclical reasoning. And I'm at the point where I have to ask myself, like, "How do I fight this? And if so, do I?" And that's where this whole question of freedom comes in. Like, do I, do I have to definitively, like, prove my innocence in a court of law to feel that I have definitively proven my innocence, or do I need to definitively prove my innocence in the court of public opinion in order to feel free or to feel like I, like, I'm not... Regardless of whether I definitively prove my innocence or not, like, am I ever going to be free of this? Is this ever going to be not touching me and impacting my life? And the answer that I've come to is, well, no, in the way that, like, any of our experiences have come to define us as human beings. And in a way, it's like another way of reframing this is, "Okay, these are my credentials now." Like, I went to the, I didn't go to four years of PH, master's degree in poetry, I got a master's degree in whatever this is-

Narrator 1:05:22 (laughs)

Amanda Knox 1:05:22 ... being fucked. (laughs) You know, like, and, and-

Narrator 1:05:25 Oh my God.

Amanda Knox 1:05:26 ... you know-

Narrator 1:05:26 Oh my God.

Amanda Knox 1:05:26 ... and so, like, and I've learned things from this. I've learned, I've learned things about the criminal justice system, I, like, I can see things that need to be fixed that have, are really commonsense fixes too, like, it, there is no reason why we shouldn't be just recording any kind of communication, like, any time that anyone is being questioned by anyone in law enforcement, there's no reason why we shouldn't be recording it. And I'm not talking about even just suspects, because, like, there's been a whole, you know, world of advocacy around, like, recording interrogations, right? Like, custodial interrogations, and especially, um, making it so that police officers can't lie to you when you're being interrogated, because that was a huge thing that impacted me as, like, a young, confused, like, overwhelmed human being, is police lying to me and telling me that they have proof that I was there when the crime occurred, and it made me, like, feel like I was insane. And so, like, the problem of, of police lying to you is not just that it's, like, a bullying technique, but it, it warps your sense of reality and you start to question yourself. And so there's psychological research to show that there are very negative consequences for police lying to you during interrogation. But at the very least, if you record it, you can sort of track how that is impacting, uh, a person who is being, who is a suspect. The wild west of all of this is eyewitnesses or anyone else who is being questioned by police, because there's no Miranda rights. The, like, as a person who is being questioned by police, you don't really have...... rights. (laughs) Like, you don't, you don't have... Like, one of the things that they say, in my case, is that I never had the right to an attorney because I wasn't a suspect. I was a witness. And so, like, to this day, in Italy, there's, like, this resistance to the idea that I was, like, coerced into... I was, that I was even interrogated at all. Because there's this, like, little loophole where they say, "Oh, you weren't interrogated. You were interviewed. Oh, you weren't interviewed, you were questioned." They just change the language, but what's ultimately happening is the same thing. You are stuck in a room with a law enforcement officer who may or may not be lying to your face and bullying you, and you don't know if you're free or not to go because the door is closed, and it doesn't feel like it. And so, uh, for me, I think that if you consider how many wrongful convictions happen because of misidentification by witnesses, or the number of times that, like, witnesses say, "Well, I wasn't really sure that it was him, but the police sort of coaxed me or pressured me into saying it was him, and let, sort of made it known to me that it was him." Like, there are lots of things that are happening behind closed doors that we really don't have an excuse for not fixing when every single one of us has a recording device in our pocket at all times. And the amount of resistance to, like, getting just really commonsense changes like that to happen from, like, law enforcement lobbies is just so frustrating (laughs) as someone who, like, shows up again and again and again to, like, try to make... Uh, c- because it seems like this adversarial thing, like, we're, we're all on the same side. It's not like victims' rights versus defendants' rights. It's not law enforcement versus, you know, innocence. It's like we're all on the same page. Why can't we just acknowledge a true thing? Um, that's been one of my biggest frustrations in this world is, like, feeling like we should all be on the same side and we should be making commonsense changes, and that don't, you know...

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 That's the way the system is structured, you know? There's two sides trying to win. And when you lose, you don't like to lose.

Amanda Knox 1:09:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 And so people will cheat to win.

Amanda Knox 1:09:20 But, like, lose? What are you losing, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 But they're playing a game.

Amanda Knox 1:09:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 I mean, it's your life, and it's other people's lives. It's innocent people's lives, but it's also guilty people's lives. Like-

Amanda Knox 1:09:31 But why doesn't, like, a law enforcement officer look at something that happened to me? Actually, you know what? I take that back. Plenty of law enforcement people have, uh, talked to me and said, like, "We are so sorry for what happened to you."

Joe Rogan 1:09:43 Right. The ones who weren't involved. That's the problem. The, the problem is, do you look away when you are involved, you know? How many law enforcement officers will stick their neck out if they think their partner overstepped their boundaries and got someone to admit to something that maybe they did or didn't do, withheld evidence that may or may not have exonerated someone? Like, there's steps along the way-

Amanda Knox 1:10:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:10:08 ... on the road to evil.

Amanda Knox 1:10:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:10:10 And-

Amanda Knox 1:10:10 And no one gets rewarded for-

Joe Rogan 1:10:12 Right.

Amanda Knox 1:10:12 ... sticking their neck out-

Joe Rogan 1:10:13 No.

Amanda Knox 1:10:13 ... or for holding their friends accountable.

Joe Rogan 1:10:15 You get punished.

Amanda Knox 1:10:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:16 You get exhau- I mean, you, you get excommunicated from your tribe. It's very dangerous, you know? The-

Amanda Knox 1:10:24 So, how do we motivate any other, like-

Joe Rogan 1:10:28 It's a real problem. It's a, it's a giant conundrum. It's a real problem in, in the way this, the system is structured.

Amanda Knox 1:10:34 And the feeling that you have to, like... In order to do the right thing, you just have to switch sides. Like, that really bothers me, also because, like, one thing that I have- I would love to see more of is more of, like, a collaboration between victims' rights advocates and innocents' rights advocates. Um, but, like, oftentimes, you see us sort of pitted against each other as if, like, you know... (sighs) I've always felt that the, the criminal justice system never did enough for victims. Um, that, like, the only compensation that victims are really given is the idea that you're gonna punish the perpetrator, and I've always wanted to know how is the system, how is the system going to help the victim rebuild their life and take back and, like, reclaim what can be reclaimed of their experience and, and, and be uplifted? And-

Joe Rogan 1:11:33 Well, that's supposedly where the civil suits go. Yeah.

Amanda Knox 1:11:36 Supposedly, but, like, you're, you're, you're suing the person who committed the crime, and are you ever actually going to get any money from them? Are you, like-

Joe Rogan 1:11:44 Well, sometimes money is awarded to families by the state, you know? There's those co-... But, I mean, is that enough? Like, is moneys? Is that enough, you know?

Amanda Knox 1:11:55 No, I don't think so. I think that people need more support than that. Th- uh-

Joe Rogan 1:12:01 Right, but what is the support, though? Like, what would make it right?

Amanda Knox 1:12:06 Well, I think if everyone's-

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 Overhaul the system.

Amanda Knox 1:12:08 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:09 It's really the only way to ma- to truly make it right is to fi-... I mean, if you, if you're a person, like... I think your approach to this all, this radical acceptance and forgiveness is very, very, very beautiful. It's, it's amazing that you can do it. It's amazing that you think the way you think, and, you know, I used you as an example the other day. We were having this conversation about, um, uh, horrible things that have happened to people that have made that person a beautiful person.

Amanda Knox 1:12:40 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:12:40 Because you, you went through this insane thing, but on the other end of it, you came out this, like, really interesting person.

Amanda Knox 1:12:47 Oh, well, thank you much. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 You, you really are. You know, I use you as, as an example of things that don't break you but that you would never want to wish on anyone else, but then the result of that is this person comes out extraordinary.

Amanda Knox 1:13:00 Hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:01 It's like-

Amanda Knox 1:13:01 I mean, that's, uh, a lot of the obstacles away kind of stuff. So, I mean, it's a lot of stuff that I write about in the book, actually, is one of the things that my goal with this book was to try to... Like, yes, what happened to me is like, oh, crazy story, happened to a girl one time, but also there are, like, universal lessons and truths that I've derived from what I, from my experience that make me... And when I communicate them, they make me feel less ostracized or less, like, singled out as a human being. And one of those is, like, there is opportunity-... in every tragedy. Um, and I think that what my tragedy challenged me to do was to not be broken by it. And my definition of being broken by it was coming out of it... a person who was angry, and- and embittered, and- and diminished by this experience. And I just, the re- the rebellious side of me was like, "Fuck that. What matters to me? What matters to me is the truth and is compassion." Curiosity, compassion. Those are things that I genuinely care about. And having the courage (laughs) to approach human beings and situations that are painful and that are wrong with the open heart that it requires to have compassion and genuine curiosity. That is what I wanted to define me. I did not want this horrible experience to define me on its terms. I wanted to define me on my own terms. And I think the challenge that any one of us has is remembering what even our terms are when we're feeling sort of overwhelmed with the- the existential crisis of it all, and- and the f- and the- and the... I think the one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they are stuck, they are fixated, they dwell on the life that they should have lived.

Joe Rogan 1:15:23 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Knox 1:15:24 Instead of acknowledging and accepting that this is the life that they are living. And when you are acting in the world as if you are living the life that you should have lived, you are inevitably becoming ineffective. Like, if I were to approach the world and be like, "My prosecutor never should have done this to me," and- and my, "I- I- I never should have gone to prison and people should, never should have villainized me in the press," I would just find myself debilitated, utterly debilitated by the fact that reality is other than that. And I would just find myself angry and- and- and- and bitter about it all. And instead, I go, "Well, all of that happened. Now what?" And by accepting reality and life as it is, I can now become an more effective agent in my life. I don't want to live my life acting and feeling and thinking in ways that are not going to be effective. And so, instead, what happens in the radical acceptance of it all, is truly coming from a place of not... I'm not trying to be Christian about it. I'm just trying to, like, not be the completely and utterly overwhelmed and disempowered person that I was when I was in prison. Like, I- I lost so much. I- I'd had so little control of my life. And I think, in the end, all of us do. I feel like I weirdly had a mid-life crisis when I was 20 because my entire life fell apart. Where I was on, I was, I was put on this- this track, this train that just, like, left the station and was going on its own, and there was really nothing I could do to stop it. And so, okay, now what?

Joe Rogan 1:17:23 That's a great way to put it, like, you're on a train that you can't stop. Yeah, I mean, what you've done is admirable. I mean, the- the- the approach that you take is really, I mean, if- I-

Amanda Knox 1:17:35 Is it admirable?

Joe Rogan 1:17:35 Yes.

Amanda Knox 1:17:35 Is it self-serving? Like-

Joe Rogan 1:17:37 No.

Amanda Knox 1:17:37 ... is it just, like-

Joe Rogan 1:17:37 No, it's not self-serving. I mean, obviously it's self-serving, but that's a good thing. I mean, you're serving yourself in the best possible way and to- to not be completely defined by your being victimized. You- you've risen above it. I mean, just the fact that you've contacted the prosecutor and- and tried to reach out and talk to him as a human being and try to find out.

Amanda Knox 1:18:02 And accept him where he's at.

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 1:18:04 Like, this is where you're at.

Joe Rogan 1:18:05 Well, he's a kind of a victim, in a- in a way, because he shouldn't have had the kind of power that he had. Uh, he- there's no way to tell. Like, there- there's no- no checks and balances that are put in place to make sure the person's ego's not overwhelming them to the point where their initial idea of a conspiracy, this, uh...

Amanda Knox 1:18:25 And he's also not in a vacuum. Like, there were other people around him who were, like, building- building him up and supporting that story and- and, you know, like-

Joe Rogan 1:18:33 Well, it's also, like, he's in a position of power. They're underneath him.

Amanda Knox 1:18:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:36 You know, there's this weird structure-

Amanda Knox 1:18:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:38 ... that's in place. Yeah.

Amanda Knox 1:18:41 All of that can be true.

Joe Rogan 1:18:42 Yeah, all that can be true.

Amanda Knox 1:18:43 And I can accept that as also true. And I think there's this, like, weird resistance that people have to accepting the context around a person. Maybe because you've- you realize that if you accept the context around the person, that feeling of self-righteousness that you're ultimately grasping onto dissipates.

Joe Rogan 1:19:08 Uh-huh.

Amanda Knox 1:19:08 Because it does inevitably dissipate. But I think that's, again, a per- that's an, a symptom of someone dwelling on the life that they should have lived.

Joe Rogan 1:19:15 Right.

Amanda Knox 1:19:16 Instead of accepting the life that they have.

Joe Rogan 1:19:18 Right.

Amanda Knox 1:19:19 Um, and I just find that to be a waste of time.

Joe Rogan 1:19:23 It is not just a waste of time. It's the opposite of self-serving. It kind of destroys you from within because you know it's not true.

Amanda Knox 1:19:30 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:19:31 Yeah. And so you're bullshitting yourself as you're bullshitting the world.And that's who you are now.

Amanda Knox 1:19:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:38 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 1:19:39 That, I think that is a scary trap that victims can fall into, is like how you then become self-destructive in your own mind as a result of someone having been destructive towards you. That is, I think that is the deepest tragedy of, of hurt, is how it can then become implosive, and I did not want to implode. I was scared to implode. I saw a lot of people around me in prison imploding, and I did not want that to be me.

Joe Rogan 1:20:14 It was a sch- insane mental resolve to not, and that's, it's the trap that most people are gonna fall into. And, and to a lesser extent, he's a victim as well.

Amanda Knox 1:20:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:20:25 He's a victim of his own actions, and he'll, it will haunt h- I mean, he's defined by that as well, now particularly that everybody knows that you're innocent and that you, you've been proven innocent. And then in the retrial, you got proven again. And so that's him. That's over his head everywhere he goes. He wrongly prosecuted and jailed you for a murder you did not commit, and he has to live with that every day when he wakes up and he looks in the mirror, "That's who you are, bitch." Forever. And you could dance around, you know, "I was doing my job," and this, you can, you can have, you know, that's, that's where you kind of try to find some sort of, like, "No, no, you did this thing."

Amanda Knox 1:21:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:10 "You were wrong. You, your ego, whatever the fuck it was that led you to come up with the initial theory and then try to use confirmation bias to reinforce it at every step of the way, that's you." And if, if he doesn't admit that, he will go to his grave haunted.

Amanda Knox 1:21:36 And I th- I think what's a really interesting thing for me is discovering what can come from approaching someone recognizing that. So, when I approached him, I approached him in a really unconventional way, right? Like, I'm trying to find common ground with this person, I'm trying to, I've ver- I'm deeply, genuinely curious about this person, I am primed to feel compassion for this person because that is just the mental and intentional space that I put myself in in approaching him. And the f- surprising dividends that arise from that, because I think everyone is evolving. E- no one is static. Even he is on his own journey, is on his own path, and I'm not in control of his path. But that doesn't mean that I can't be a very compelling influence. Of all the people in the world who could be nice to him and have that have an impact on him, me. And like recognizing, like I didn't really fully comprehend that until I sat down with him. And like I had sort of in my mind, I, I realized what it looked like from my position. Like here's this person who had this overwhelming impact on my life, and, and to this day, like continually, like this story that he made up, like took over my life and continues to take over my life, like this is what I'm gonna live with for the rest of my life, is because of him, this person who has had this in- outsized influence on my wellbeing and my, my personhood and my existence, this guy. I sit down across from him, and I'm nice to him, and I walk away from that encounter realizing that his wellbeing depends on me much more so than my wellbeing depends on him. And I think because deep down he understands that there is this dynamic, that, you know, whatever stories he can tell himself about what happened, he was the one who was in power, and I was the one who went to prison. And for me to be kind to him, I didn't have to do that. He had never had it happen before. It was unheard of. And as a spiritual person, he experienced it in a spiritual way. Me, I came out of that experience feeling like a fucking superhero. I have never felt more powerful in my life than when I sat across from him and was kind to him, and it didn't matter what he said or what he did because I showed up. And that was, I was not expecting that to happen. That was not how I expected to feel. It surprised me. But like it had such an impact on me that I felt like I had discovered something about, about trauma and, and about healing and, and about people and dynamics. And in a world that is so conflicted and where the people are, you know, not building bridges, they're blowing them up, I was like, I wanted to remind people of what happens when you, when you take a chance and you take a stand. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25:37 Well, that kind of kindness is rewarded by the universe, and that was the feeling that you got.

Amanda Knox 1:25:43 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:25:43 Like, that you were on the right path to, like, the best possible person that you could be. What would the best possible version of you do, and you did that, and then you had that feeling because of that. That was the universe telling you, "Right-"

Amanda Knox 1:26:00 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:26:01 "... this is the best thing you can do." You could yell at that guy and call him a piece of shit and slap him in the face, and you-

Amanda Knox 1:26:07 And feel justified in doing so as well.

Joe Rogan 1:26:09 Yeah. And you would be.

Amanda Knox 1:26:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:10 And you would be.

Amanda Knox 1:26:10 And that might even feel a little good in a way, but it wouldn't feel, like, that good.

Joe Rogan 1:26:15 Yeah. Negativity always, no matter what, leaves you with this res- residue, this, like, icky... Even if you're correct, it's just, like, slime-

Amanda Knox 1:26:29 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:26:29 ... that's on y- this psychic slime-

Amanda Knox 1:26:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:26:33 ... that's on you, no matter what.

Amanda Knox 1:26:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26:36 And that's your power, that you could sit across this person and treat them with compassion, and that's why you felt that way.

Amanda Knox 1:26:45 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:26:45 You know? It's like-

Amanda Knox 1:26:46 Have you ever felt that way?

Joe Rogan 1:26:48 I've never had anything remotely like your situation.

Amanda Knox 1:26:53 But you've had-

Joe Rogan 1:26:55 No-

Amanda Knox 1:26:55 You've had encounters with people. Like, I don't think you have to have as devastating of a situation to, like, be in a position to know that you're doing the right thing in a moment. Like, for instance, when my husband got up in his whitey-tighties and walked down the stairs to put himself between me and my fa- and his family and this crazy guy, I feel like maybe he felt that in that moment, like, total clarity of purpose. And it didn't really matter what happened, because he was doing the thing that had to be done in that moment, and there was no confusion. I think that, like, when I talk about it with him today, like, to this day, he's just like, "I was just not confused. I just knew exactly what I needed to... I didn't even think." It wa- it was that flow state, even, that they talk about, and, like, tao, when, like, you- you and the universe are moving in the exact... in- in sync.

Joe Rogan 1:28:01 Yeah.

Amanda Knox 1:28:01 And that- that was my version of it,