Joe Rogan Experience #2324 - Amanda Knox

1. 0:00 – 3:20

   Intro

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. AKAmanda Knox0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. NANarrator0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Hello.

   5. AKAmanda Knox0:13

      Hey!

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Good to see you.

   7. AKAmanda Knox0:14

      Good to see you again.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      You have a book?

   9. AKAmanda Knox0:16

      I do, yeah. I hope you like it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:18

       Free. (laughs) That's a great name for it.

   11. AKAmanda Knox0:20

       Yeah! Well, it's- it's on point. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       Yeah, it's on the nose.

   13. AKAmanda Knox0:24

       Yes.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       Yeah.

   15. AKAmanda Knox0:25

       Well, that- that whole question of what does it mean to be free, and what, you know ... Yes, there's the physical, like, "Oh, you're out of prison," but then also, is your life the thing that you expected it to be, and how do you make your own freedom when you feel hemmed in by all of the things that happened to you? So ...

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Yeah, you're connected to that forever. That's always gonna be a part of your life. It's not like anything else that didn't really happen, like you didn't do anything, and you're connected to something that you didn't really do, forever. For people that don't know the story-

   17. AKAmanda Knox0:58

       Yeah, yeah-

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       ... we should probably-

   19. AKAmanda Knox0:59

       ... we should do a little recap.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Yeah.

   21. AKAmanda Knox1:00

       Recap? Okay, recap, friends.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       Real- real quick for-

   23. AKAmanda Knox1:02

       Recap, friends, um, and you can go back to the episode that, of Joe Rogan. What number was that? Do you know?

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       I don't know.

   25. AKAmanda Knox1:09

       Off the top of your head?

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       If you just Google "Amanda Knox," you'll go, "Holy shit."

   27. AKAmanda Knox1:13

       You'll go down a crazy rabbit hole, yes. So, in a nutshell, what happened?

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Yeah.

   29. AKAmanda Knox1:18

       I was studying abroad when I was 20 years old, in Perugia, Italy. My- one of my roommates was raped and murdered by a burglar who broke into our home, but I was accused of having orchestrated a murder orgy, and I was sent to prison for four years. I was sentenced to 26 years. I was put on trial for eight years, and it became this international scandal, uh, where i- it sort of pinged all of the buttons in all the right places. This happened in 2007, so, you know, early 2000s, when the internet was- or- the internet- the social media was really becoming a thing. The iPhone was becoming a thing. I think that that played a huge role of people sort of going into their little echo chambers and fighting online, and so I think that there was- Yeah, i- it was a case that, for whatever reason, rose above the- the level of other cases. Like, ultimately, this case was actually very simple, and it wouldn't have risen to the level of international infamy were it not for the series of mistakes that the prosecution and the def- and the detectives made at the very beginning, by trying to pin a man's crime on me, a woman.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       Yeah, um, and if anybody wants, there's a documentary.
2. 3:20 – 10:20

   What is a friend

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:20

   2. AKAmanda Knox3:20

      Friend is an interesting word. Um, what is a friend? Someone else asked me that. Like, I was like, "Dep- it depends on what you mean by 'friend'," um, because- And they said, "Well, do you trust him?" And I said, "Well, I- I think that, at the point that we are now in our relationship, um, I do trust him." I trust that he's telling me the truth about what he really thinks and f- and feels about the situation. So I feel like I have very privileged, special access to the mind of the person who put me in prison, and that is a very interesting, uh, i- uh, awkward but also empowering place for me to be, because one of the things that really bothered me about this experience was not understanding why it happened to me. Why did this man look at a 20-year-old girl with no criminal history, no motivation to commit this crime? Why did he look at me and think, "There's my rapist and murderer"? And I didn't understand it, and I didn't feel like demonizing him in my mind, or vilifying him in my mind, was going to actually give me a satisfying answer as to the why of it all. A lot of people said, "Well, it's just 'cause he's a bad dude. He doesn't care what the truth is. He's just covering his ass." Like, these were all really simplistic ways of framing his motivations, and I didn't really buy them. Um, so instead, what I was interested in was going to the source and confronting him, asking why. But to ask someone, "Why did you hurt me?" which I think is a really common thing that people who have been hurt want to know, is they want an acknowledgement that they've been hurt, and they wanna understand why, and they- they wanna know if that person's not gonna hurt them anymore or not gonna hurt other people. Like, that's really common for people who have been hurt. Um, the- the challenge is that people who hurt other people don't like (laughs) to be confronted with that fact. And so, how do you start a conversation that's not going to immediately become adversarial? And that was one of my biggest challenges, but I came up with this methodology that I actually, it became so important to me that I tattooed it on my arm, so this is it. Um, there are four steps, and, uh, the first one is "find common ground." So it's this Venn diagram. Find common ground.I promise you that every single person on this earth, you have something in common with them. Find it. So, I asked myself, "What could I and my prosecutor have in common?" I didn't know this man. I didn't know what his h- history was, what his background was. But I did know that he, like me, was part of this really big, scandalous, in the media case. And he very likely felt misconstrued or misrepresented also in the process, maybe dehumanized in the process. And so, I reached out to him and I acknowledged that fact. I said, "Hey, I don't know who you are. I only ever encountered you in the police office and in the courtroom where you were someone who was trying to ruin my life. So, you were a big, scary boogeyman, and I saw you in the media and I... You know, I've seen how the media represented you, but I (laughs) knowing from experience, I know how that can be very misrepresentative." So, I said to him, "I want to know who you really are, and I hope that you might be interested (laughs) to know who I really am, 'cause I don't think you know who I really am. I don't think that you would have prosecuted me if you knew who I really am." And that was the beginning of the dialogue. This, like... I went out of my way to acknowledge that he might have had noble v- motivations, even if he was wrong. And I think this is, like, a really important thing, is... I- I wanted to give him radical benefit of the doubt. Maybe, just maybe, this, like, horrible thing that happened to me could have been the result of understandable mistakes. And if anything, I think coming into contact with the innocence movement and criminal justice system stuff, and reform, all the stuff that I've learned after having gone through this experience, has made me realize that, like, some of the most horrible things can happen and can be enacted by people who have the best of intentions. And so I assumed that of him, and I gave him that benefit of the doubt, and as soon as I, like, opened that door, like, "Hey, you hurt me, but maybe that wasn't your intention. Maybe your intention was something else," he filled that void with his story and his message and- and what he wanted me to understand about himself. And (laughs) I mean, one of the wildest things about this book is that I talk about, like... I do not sugarcoat what I went through, like... And especially what he did to me. Like, I very, like, clearly set out, like, "Here's the fucked up shit he said about me in court. Completely without evidence, like, totally made up bullshit." Like... And it ruined my life, right? "Here's what it is, acknowledge these facts, and also, and also, here is a person who might have had, like... In doing so, might have been coming from a place of trying to rationalize things in his own mind, which is a thing that we all do, we all do on a, on a regular basis. We're all just sort of interpreting our reality in the way that suits us." And so I... And I wrote this book from my perspective. I translated the entire thing into T- into Italian before it ever got published so that I could share it with him, so that he would know what I was saying about him in public, what was imminently going to come out, and his response was, "I have never felt more seen." That's what he told me.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:48

      That sounds like something a teenage girl would say.

   4. AKAmanda Knox9:51

      Well, that's an interesting observation. (laughs) Um, because it's become quite emotional, um, especially on his part, um (laughs) -

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:10

      Oh. (laughs)

   6. AKAmanda Knox10:11

      ... I don't know. I- I- I shouldn't go there too much, um, just-

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:16

      You're protecting his privacy? That's hilarious.

   8. AKAmanda Knox10:19

      Yeah, yeah.

3. 10:20 – 11:40

   Ad break

   1. AKAmanda Knox10:20

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:20

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4. 11:40 – 17:10

   Forgiveness

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:40

   2. AKAmanda Knox11:40

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:40

      You're a very nice person.

   4. AKAmanda Knox11:42

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:42

      You're so much nicer than me (laughs) .

   6. AKAmanda Knox11:45

      (laughs) Well, I don't know, I've just had really bad stuff happen to me, and like-

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:49

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AKAmanda Knox11:49

      ... I don't wish bad stuff upon other people. And-

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:52

      That's a beautiful way to live your life. It really is. I mean, that's, uh, what all Christians aspire to, is what you're doing.

   10. AKAmanda Knox12:03

       Yeah, uh... I- I guess. I'm not a Christian.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:05

       Radical forgiveness.

   12. AKAmanda Knox12:07

       Yeah. Uh, you know, and it's funny, I didn't really set out for... Uh, people, like, point to that. They're like, "Forgiveness, forgiveness. You're doing forgiveness." And I was like, "Is this forgiveness or is this..."

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:16

       Just communicating with him is forgiveness in some way and not having extreme anger.

   14. AKAmanda Knox12:22

       Well, that's the thing. I do have extreme anger.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:25

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AKAmanda Knox12:25

       Like, that's all part of it. Um, and this is where, like, the Buddhist in me comes out, where you- you can have extreme anger towards a person and at the same time hold them in your hand as this, like, tender, fallible creature that is capable of violence against you, but is also capable of being hurt. Just because someone hurt you doesn't mean that they're not capable of being hurt. And I certainly don't want to be in the position of hurting someone. Like, that's just who I am. And if anything, like, one thing that I've communicated to him is like, "Look, I don't know if you're ever gonna really wrap your head around what you did to me, um, but if you do one day, um, I know that you're gonna feel really, really bad. And I just want you to know that, like, I- I don't wish suffering on you. I don't." (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:34

       Did you ask him if he had gone over any of his previous cases and wondered whether he did the same thing to other people? Because I don't think that's something you do once. I don't think you are an ethical prosecutor who just really objectively analyzes the evidence and puts forth a case based on what you think is the facts.

   18. AKAmanda Knox13:59

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:00

       I don't- I don't think you do that your whole career, and then, "This 20-year-old bitch-"

   20. AKAmanda Knox14:04

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       ... "I think she's too cute. I don't like how she's smiling."

   22. AKAmanda Knox14:08

       Yeah, there... Yeah, there was that element to it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:11

       It has to be.

   24. AKAmanda Knox14:12

       Well, yeah, I think that... And I do feel like there was a, some kind of pornographic nature to it. Like, I don't know, like, I think that maybe...

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:24

       Well, there's a lot of men that have, like, a deep resentment for beautiful women. And-

   26. AKAmanda Knox14:29

       Just from feelings of rejection?

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:31

       Yes.

   28. AKAmanda Knox14:31

       Or... Yeah, okay.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:32

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they are attracted to them or they find them to be beautiful or desirable, and they know that that woman wants to have nothing to do with them.

   30. AKAmanda Knox14:42

       Mm-hmm.
5. 17:10 – 24:40

   Taking beautiful women down a peg

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:10

      I think it was like, uh... You know, I mean, they're the same people that had sex tapes that "leaked," air quotes-

   2. AKAmanda Knox17:17

      Right, right, right, right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:17

      ... that were engineered. I mean, the whole thing was... It- it was on purpose. Like...

   4. AKAmanda Knox17:22

      Sure, sure, sure, yeah. But in- but in terms of your-

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:25

      'Cause it stopped.

   6. AKAmanda Knox17:25

      ... of, like, trying to take beautiful women down a peg-

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:28

      Yes.

   8. AKAmanda Knox17:28

      ... I think you're right. I also think that something that was going on, um, in my case that I think you also tend to see in those situations where you're trying to take beautiful women down a peg is this idea of, like, pitting women against each other. Um, like, that was a huge thing in my case, where they were suggesting that, you know, here I was, this, like, free-spirited but also whore-y, you know, American girl versus the uptight, judgmental British girl. And- and therefore they hated each other and with, you know, with a vengeance, with a lethal vengeance.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:06

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AKAmanda Knox18:07

       And then...... then this idea of, like, a murder orgy appeared, where this pornographic fantasy of women ex- like, expressing their own violent fantasies towards each other in real life and using men as pawns in that, in that game of, of violent hatred towards each other. I think you see that a lot, um, you know, e- even in, like, a person that I, I write about in this book who's become a dear friend of mine is Monica Lewinsky, and how I feel like people really wanted to bring her down a peg in part because they wanted to bring Hillary down a peg. And the whole, like, pers- the person who actually committed the affair was sort of... I mean, he definitely got his part, but it was all, like, a political game of they're trying to take down the man, but they're also taking down the woman. And they're especially railroading this young woman who made a mistake, and it became known as the Monica Lewinsky scandal and not, you know, the Bill Clinton affair or whatever. Like, it matters what you name a thing, and it seemed like the legacy of that, and the person who became defined entirely by that scandal happened to be Monica, the one who was the person with the least amount of power and agency in that equation. And-

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       Also 20 years old.

   12. AKAmanda Knox19:33

       Yeah, 23 years old.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:35

       Yeah.

   14. AKAmanda Knox19:35

       Yeah, who did a very normal thing, which was fall in love with a charismatic, powerful man.

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:40

       And he was handsome as fuck back then.

   16. AKAmanda Knox19:42

       Oh, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:42

       I mean, he was the president of the United States.

   18. AKAmanda Knox19:44

       He was the president of the United States.

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:45

       Yeah.

   20. AKAmanda Knox19:45

       He was charismatic. He was handsome. He showered her with attention, and it makes sense that a young, inexperienced person would fall in love with him. And yet, she was the one who got railroaded. She was the homewrecker. She was the, the one who became the subject of all the rap lyrics. And her entire life and her entire identity became identified with this mistake she had made, and that was not the same thing with the president of the United States. And I think that that impulse to define women by their worst moments and to tear them down for their worst moments is, um, is prevalent, as from what I have seen.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:27

       Well, I think because they know it's so devastating to the person.

   22. AKAmanda Knox20:30

       Hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:31

       You know what I mean? It's like, there's that, the bully instinct when they know that you're weak and vulnerable-

   24. AKAmanda Knox20:36

       Hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:36

       ... you know, to attack.

   26. AKAmanda Knox20:38

       Hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:38

       You know?

   28. AKAmanda Knox20:39

       But why? To what end?

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:40

       People are cruel, 'cause they've been hurt. You know, it's the hurt people hurt people thing.

   30. AKAmanda Knox20:45

       Mm-hmm.
6. 24:40 – 29:03

   My weird relationship with police

   1. JRJoe Rogan24:40

      (sighs) Yeah.

   2. AKAmanda Knox24:41

      Hmm. Can I tell you a story?

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:45

      Yes, please.

   4. AKAmanda Knox24:46

      Okay, so this story didn't actually make it in my book, but it is one that I wanted to tell you because it, it talks about how my weird relationship with other people who are in positions of power, like police officers, right? Like, you know, I'm a, I'm an advocate of criminal justice reform. Um, I talk a lot about, like, I go and testify in front of my, you know, state congress, trying to get certain laws passed to protect, you know, innocent people. And one thing that I like to point out is that I'm not anti law enforcement. Um, and if anything, I was a victim of crime before I became a victim of the criminal justice system. Like, someone broke into my home and raped and murdered my roommate, and then I called the cops, and then the cops went on to betray me. And, but that doesn't mean that there isn't like... I'm not one of those, you know, "Fuck all the police. We don't need them. You know, abolish the whole system." That's not what I believe. Um, but as someone who has had this complicated experience with police, um, I don't really know what to do when something bad goes down. And I want to tell you a story about something bad that went down. Um, it was in LA. I was staying at a friend's house with my husband and our two kids. We were doing work down there. And our friends were not there, but, um, in the middle of the night, we hear someone yelling out in the, you know, out in the street. We think there's some drunk guy out there, but it gets closer and closer and closer, until finally, there is a huge bang. Um, and my husband gets up in his tighty whiteys and says one thing to me, "Call the police," before he marches downstairs. We were upstairs in the second story, and we hear a bang, we hear yelling. He goes down there in his underwear, and I don't know if the last thing I'm ever going to hear from my husband at that point is, "Call the police," (laughs) which is an interesting final words to get from the love of your life when you're me. And my, my, you know, infant son is crying. My, you know, two-year-old daughter at the time is going, "What's going on?" And I'm trying to calm him while reassure her while looking around the room thinking, "How do I barricade a door and can I jump out of a window with two small children?" All of that before I think, "Dial 911." Because the last time that I dialed the equivalent of 911 to call for help, I got thrown into prison. I realize that there's nothing I can do to protect my kids, so I call 911, and eventually, you know, my husband is able to get this intruder to leave the house. Um, the police arrive, and I have a very strange encounter with them because they are very nice to me, and I was not expecting that, and they are very nice to my daughter, and they give her a nice little, you know, police badge, and I'm sitting here thinking, "Great. Now, I'm going to have to throw a police-themed birthday party for her 'cause now she's going to be super into police." And I'm just like, "What is happening to my life?" And I'm scared that they're going to recognize me and I'm scared that they're going to think maybe she faked a break-in. Like, all of that is going on in my head and I don't know how to resolve that. Uh, you know, somebody broke into... I have, you know, broke into my home once, murdered my roommate, broke into the place I was staying again, thankfully didn't murder anybody. But like, how do I make sense of my relationship with people who are empowered to protect me but also are empowered to hurt me? What do I do about that? You tell me (laughs) , Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:01

      That's hard.

   6. AKAmanda Knox29:02

      What do I do?

7. 29:03 – 34:56

   My lived experience

   1. AKAmanda Knox29:03

   2. JRJoe Rogan29:03

      There's no way I could know what's going through your mind, you know. The, the experience that you had is... Th- the, no one can even pretend to have those thoughts in their head because this is not just paranoid fantasy. This is, this is your actual lived experience for years. Yeah, it's a good question. What, what had happened? Like, the bang, was it someone kicking down the door?

   3. AKAmanda Knox29:33

      Yeah, he had kicked in the door through the deadbolt.

   4. JRJoe Rogan29:36

      What was the yelling?

   5. AKAmanda Knox29:37

      The yelling was, he was just, uh-

   6. JRJoe Rogan29:40

      Schizophrenic?

   7. AKAmanda Knox29:41

      Yeah, he, he thought that he, someone had stole that house from him, and he was yelling for some name of a person who didn't live there. Clearly was just like either confused or mentally ill in some capacity, um, but, and thankfully not armed, but like, my husband didn't know when he walked down the stairs in his underwear-

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      Wow (sighs) .

   9. AKAmanda Knox30:05

      ... without any-And, like, he grabbed a broom on his way down, and that wa-

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:09

       Oh, Jesus.

   11. AKAmanda Knox30:09

       He was between putting himself and a broom between whoever this person was who had just kicked in the front door through the deadbolt and his family. Um, and that might have been the last time I ever saw him.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       Oh.

   13. AKAmanda Knox30:23

       You know? And I did not know what to do. I try to, like, joke about it now, where... Yeah, I actually did a standup bit about it a while back, about how I was, like, testing my butt to see if it was bouncy enough to, like, jump out of the window and bounce. But, like, I, when I think back on it, it's just, it's still scary. You know? Um, and, and I don't, I don't like how I feel right now, that when I'm scared, I'm supposed to call the police, but I'm also scared to call the police.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Jesus.

   15. AKAmanda Knox31:01

       And so-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:02

       (exhales)

   17. AKAmanda Knox31:02

       ... you know, when I go and do advocacy work for, you know... I'm, I'm now on the board of a organization called the Innocence Center, um, innocencecenter.org, which by the way, just got a bunch of federal funding, uh, taken away. Thanks, Elon. Um, you'd think that they would be interested in supporting organizations that clean up the messes of the criminal justice system, but apparently not. Um, so if you want to support us, innocencecenter.org. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       How did they... What, what happened that they got their funding taken away? What, what was the circumstances? Like...

   19. AKAmanda Knox31:40

       Uh, I mean, there, there's a federal funding that is designed for innocence organizations, and I think... What I heard is that there are certain words that sort of became taboo within the, um, administration, that if you were using these words or these terminologies that they associate with, like, DEI, that then their... That sort of puts you on the list of being cut for federal funding. And one of those words was, like, the word fair. And in a organization that is interested in justice and for, in getting innocent people out of prison, the word fair is going (laughs) to come up quite a bit.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       So, is it just an algorithm? They're just scanning the mission statement of whatever these organizations are?

   21. AKAmanda Knox32:27

       Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a first, a first step, is they'll just use this... They're gonna use algorithms and AI to help them identify potential things to cut. And I think as a, as a new innocence organization, we were considered not worthy of the federal funding that we have relied on and to help innocent people. And now we're-

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       Are you one of the founders of this organization?

   23. AKAmanda Knox32:52

       Me? No, I'm on the board. Um-

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       You're on the board.

   25. AKAmanda Knox32:55

       But yes, this is, um, formally the California Innocence Project that has since sort of turned into the Innocence Center. But you'll see, you're seeing this all across the board-

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:04

       Okay.

   27. AKAmanda Knox33:05

       ... of innocence projects, of getting their federal funding taken away.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       And there's no accusations of impropriety or misuse of funds or-

   29. AKAmanda Knox33:13

       Nope.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       ... high salaries for certain individuals or-
8. 34:56 – 36:17

   Sponsor

   1. AKAmanda Knox34:56

   2. JRJoe Rogan34:56

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9. 36:17 – 39:45

   Josh Dubin

   1. JRJoe Rogan36:17

      I do a lot of work with Josh Dubin.

   2. AKAmanda Knox36:19

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan36:20

      And ... You know Josh?

   4. AKAmanda Knox36:21

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan36:21

      Yeah.

   6. AKAmanda Knox36:21

      I mean, I've never met him personally, but ...

   7. JRJoe Rogan36:23

      He's with the... Uh, he was with the Innocence Project and now he's with the Ike Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice.

   8. AKAmanda Knox36:30

      Mm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan36:31

      And same kind of work. Ironically, Ike Perlmutter is very close friends with Trump.

   10. AKAmanda Knox36:36

       Huh.

   11. JRJoe Rogan36:36

       And so ... Yeah.

   12. AKAmanda Knox36:37

       I mean, I would have thought that that would have been of interest to Trump, considering-

   13. JRJoe Rogan36:42

       I think it's a baby with the bathwater type deal.

   14. AKAmanda Knox36:45

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan36:45

       Where there's a lot of what you would call almost, like, slush fund NGOs where they're inappropriately moving funds around and doing stuff. And I don't know if you've ever seen any of Mike Benz's work, but he essentially says that USAID is really there to do things that are too dirty for the CIA.

   16. AKAmanda Knox37:06

       Hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan37:06

       So, the extraordinary amount of money that was being moved around, there's a certain percentage of it that was inappropriately being used.

   18. AKAmanda Knox37:16

       I imagine so, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan37:17

       Yes.

   20. AKAmanda Knox37:17

       Sure.

   21. JRJoe Rogan37:18

       An enormous percentage. Uh, there's, it's a lot of money- but unfortunately, there's a lot of good that also is coming out of that money. And that's what's difficult. It's like, you know, when you round up, uh, all the "gang members," right, and you fly them to El Salvador, are you sure-

   22. AKAmanda Knox37:40

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan37:40

       ... they're all gang members, or do you care?

   24. AKAmanda Knox37:42

       Right, exactly.

   25. JRJoe Rogan37:43

       Right.

   26. AKAmanda Knox37:43

       And I think that's-

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:44

       Do you care or is it just like, "We're just here to clean things up, and if-"

   28. AKAmanda Knox37:47

       And if we throw innocent-

   29. JRJoe Rogan37:48

       "Break a few eggs to make an omelet."

   30. AKAmanda Knox37:49

       Right.
10. 39:45 – 43:22

    Larry Nasser

    1. JRJoe Rogan39:45

       is to win as often as possible so that they're the person, like this, this is the guy you want.

    2. AKAmanda Knox39:50

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan39:51

       You know?

    4. AKAmanda Knox39:51

       Although I have talked to some really interesting defense attorneys, um, uh, f- uh, the defense attorneys who represented Larry Nassar, for example, um, famously, for those who don't remember, was, uh, molesting young gymnasts.

    5. JRJoe Rogan40:07

       Oh.

    6. AKAmanda Knox40:07

       You remember him?

    7. JRJoe Rogan40:08

       Yeah, the Olympics guy, yeah.

    8. AKAmanda Knox40:09

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan40:10

       Ugh.

    10. AKAmanda Knox40:10

        And I, I interviewed them because it was two women who represented him, and so a lot of people were like, "How dare you represent this man? As a woman, how could you?" And their position was, "Well, we didn't represent him to prove him innocent. We, we had him plead guilty to these crimes. We just feel that everyone deserves to have a, you know, a defender. We're, we're, we're defenders. We re- we represent people in, in, in the law." And they were getting, like, demonized for even taking him on as a client. And I thought that was interesting because they weren't trying to get him off. They were just trying to have ... To, to represent due process.

    11. JRJoe Rogan40:50

        Mm.

    12. AKAmanda Knox40:50

        And I, I felt like that was a really interesting case of people confusing the, the ... What, what is the role of a defense attorney. And I think you're right. Like, some defense attorneys really don't care (laughs) if their clients are, are guilty or innocent because they are also in this adversarial system.

    13. JRJoe Rogan41:09

        Yeah.

    14. AKAmanda Knox41:09

        And so they are also in this position of just wanting to win and, and wanting to make the lives of, you know, law enforcement difficult. And they're willing to throw victims under the bus in the process. Like, I've had really frank conversations with, um, with friends of mine in the, in the innocence world where they talk about how they were trained to just destroy a victim in order to, to diminish their credibility in court and, and to really put them in a, a really bad position so they didn't want to pursue justice for themselves. And I think that ... And they look back and go, "Oh my God, I can't believe that that's how I was trained to be a defense attorney." But like, that was just part of the game, and I think that's where this whole course of justice gets completely distorted.

    15. JRJoe Rogan41:57

        Yeah.

    16. AKAmanda Knox41:57

        Because it's like, well, what is the, what is the point of all of this? Like, it should be about, like, arriving at the truth-

    17. JRJoe Rogan42:04

        Right.

    18. AKAmanda Knox42:04

        ... and, and then doing ... And then having there be, like, some recognized consequences for acknowledging what really happened.

    19. JRJoe Rogan42:11

        Right.

    20. AKAmanda Knox42:11

        Like, we need to address the issue, which is somebody got hurt by someone else. What do we do? Now what? And instead, it's become, well ...I'm gonna win it. Like, I'm on this team, you're on this team, fight, fight, fight. Let's see who wins. And as a result, the, the whole issue of truth gets distorted and, and becomes about making the best story that, that captures the people's attention, and I think, uh, I mean, that was a huge lesson for me, was realizing that, like, the truth didn't matter. Like, nobody cared about the truth. They cared about the story, and was it a story that spoke to them, and was it a story that lingered for them? And that's, you know, an ongoing thing that I, I, I write about is like, "Okay, here's this crazy story that is not true, that took over my life, and that still has this huge role." Like, I'm still in conversation with that crazy story that was written about me, and, and the fact that, like, my entire identity is now wrapped up in the death of my friend that I had nothing to do with, and I'll forever be defined by because it's such a captivating story.

11. 43:22 – 45:24

    Cognitive Bias

    1. AKAmanda Knox43:23

    2. JRJoe Rogan43:23

       And because the prosecutor was dead set on winning and wasn't necessarily interested in the truth.

    3. AKAmanda Knox43:33

       What he says, and it's very in- c- it's, again, it goes back to, like, what are we telling ourselves and what is, what is the cognitive bias? And I think this is where it gets super interesting, because winning is interpreted in some people's minds as doing their duty, right? Like, the way that my prosecutor has always talked about it with me is that he maintains that he was doing his duty. He, this was his job. His job was to make a case that made logical sense to him based upon certain premises, and then to win that case in court. That was his job. That was his duty, and he believes that he was doing the right thing because that w- that's what he was trained and incentivized to do. In the same way that like, you know, journalists, if you ask journalists back, uh, who covered the case back in the day, they'll be like, "Well, we were doing our job. Our job was to sell the best story that we could to our audience."

    4. JRJoe Rogan44:45

       Ugh.

    5. AKAmanda Knox44:45

       And, right? And, but, and so that's when it gets, like, fucked up 'cause, like, how, how have our institutions that we've relied on to be truth-seeking institutions been corrupted from the inside by ultimately what is a question of, like, money or, or power? Um, when politics gets brought into the c- the equation with criminal justice, suddenly, you know, your prosecutor is now wanting to win cases, not because they're the right cases to win, but because they wanna be elected. Like, all of that gets distorted, and, and the, the motivations behind all our institutions become warped.

    6. JRJoe Rogan45:23

       Well, the,

12. 45:24 – 46:20

    The Media

    1. JRJoe Rogan45:24

       but, but the, with the media, it's even more disgusting because it's not about politics. It's literally just about getting people to pay attention to their story-

    2. AKAmanda Knox45:33

       Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan45:33

       ... and buy newspapers or click on links.

    4. AKAmanda Knox45:36

       Right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan45:36

       That's it.

    6. AKAmanda Knox45:36

       Right. And then they hold, then they hold their-

    7. JRJoe Rogan45:39

       (clears throat)

    8. AKAmanda Knox45:39

       ... the audience accountable for the kinds of stories that they are then incentivized to write. They say, "Well, you know, I wouldn't have been writing this story if you weren't clicking on it."

    9. JRJoe Rogan45:48

       Oh, that's-

    10. AKAmanda Knox45:48

        And it's-

    11. JRJoe Rogan45:49

        ... that's crazy.

    12. AKAmanda Knox45:49

        ... and it's just, like, this vicious cycle.

    13. JRJoe Rogan45:50

        (clears throat) That's crazy. That's like, "I wouldn't have robbed your house if you didn't have nice stuff."

    14. AKAmanda Knox45:53

        Exactly. Exactly.

    15. JRJoe Rogan45:54

        That's fucking crazy. Yeah.

    16. AKAmanda Knox45:56

        But, like, that's how, if you're in that little echo chamber of a system, and that's what your reward structure is, of course that's what you're gonna end up delivering if you're somebody who's not, who doesn't have the introspection to question, like, "Okay, wait, what am I doing, and what is the point of all of this?" And, "Do you have certain principles?" But again, the people who rise to the top are maybe the ones who are willing to question those principles in order to achieve certain ends.

    17. JRJoe Rogan46:19

        Yes.

13. 46:20 – 47:01

    Its Dark

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       Yeah, and then there's also the problem with you're working for a corporation if you're in the news. If you're not an independent journalist who has, like, rock solid personal ethics, you're working for a corporation-

    2. AKAmanda Knox46:31

       Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       ... and your job is to make money for your shareholders ultimately.

    4. AKAmanda Knox46:35

       Right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:35

       And the way you do that is to get as many people to click on those links as possible.

    6. AKAmanda Knox46:38

       And maybe the person who's on the ground has a certain vision for what they want their, like, on-the-ground reporting to do, but then once it gets in the hands of editors and other editors-

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:48

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    8. AKAmanda Knox46:48

       ... like, it becomes completely warped from the thing-

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:50

       (clears throat) Oh, boy.

    10. AKAmanda Knox46:50

        ... that they were originally reporting on because the person who's over here is so divorced from the actual on-the-ground story, and they know instead the story that's going to sell.

    11. JRJoe Rogan47:00

        Yeah.

14. 47:01 – 50:16

    Prosecutors

    1. JRJoe Rogan47:01

    2. AKAmanda Knox47:01

       So.

    3. JRJoe Rogan47:01

       Yeah, it's dark. I mean, it's the same sort of distortion. Excuse me. (clears throat)

    4. AKAmanda Knox47:07

       Salute.

    5. JRJoe Rogan47:08

       Sorry. It's the same sort of distortion, um, when, when you were talking about prosecutors, um, just trying to win. It's this, it's this thing where, and, uh, ultimately, it's, it's a, it's a, a severe distortion of what the best case scenario is. The best case scenario is prosecutors don't care about winning. They care about finding truly guilty people, and in cases where someone, whether they, uh, withhold evidence that could have exonerated an innocent person or whether they distort things or twist things around in order to win, they should be forever removed from that system. You should never be allowed to do that. But this is, Kamala Harris did that and rose to be vice president and almost became president.

    6. AKAmanda Knox48:04

       I know. I know.

    7. JRJoe Rogan48:04

       And she is absolutely guilty of doing that.

    8. AKAmanda Knox48:07

       Yeah, I know. It's-

    9. JRJoe Rogan48:08

       She tried to withheld, withhold DNA evidence that would have exonerated someone.

    10. AKAmanda Knox48:13

        I know.

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:13

        Yeah.

    12. AKAmanda Knox48:13

        But she was not a popular choice among the innocence (laughs) community. I'll tell you that.

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:18

        Oh, yeah.

    14. AKAmanda Knox48:19

        (laughs) That was-

    15. JRJoe Rogan48:19

        No, Josh Dubin broke her down on my show, but when she was running for president.

    16. AKAmanda Knox48:23

        Oh, were they here together?

    17. JRJoe Rogan48:23

        No.

    18. AKAmanda Knox48:24

        Oh, okay, no. (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan48:25

        No, no, no, he broke down what she was guilty of when she was a prosecutor in California.

    20. AKAmanda Knox48:30

        Yeah, no, it, it wasn't-And that's why I was so mad that our party never actually gave us a choice.

    21. JRJoe Rogan48:36

        Right.

    22. AKAmanda Knox48:36

        Um...

    23. JRJoe Rogan48:37

        Right, there was no primary.

    24. AKAmanda Knox48:38

        No, there was no primary.

    25. JRJoe Rogan48:39

        Yeah.

    26. AKAmanda Knox48:39

        They were just like, "Here's the person now." And we were like-

    27. JRJoe Rogan48:41

        And if you don't vote for her, you're a bad person.

    28. AKAmanda Knox48:42

        Exactly.

    29. JRJoe Rogan48:43

        You're a fascist.

    30. AKAmanda Knox48:44

        Yes.
15. 50:16 – 51:50

    What is evil

    1. JRJoe Rogan50:16

       like he was doing it intentionally, if he was paying attention to the facts of the case. I mean, there was DNA evidence. There was all sorts of stuff that pointed to you not being the guilty party-

    2. AKAmanda Knox50:27

       Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan50:27

       ... and they ignored that. If that's not evil...

    4. AKAmanda Knox50:30

       I mean, what he did, it's interesting. Um, he wrote a whole book about the case, and he talked about how when he first arrived at- at the scene, he immediately knew that it was a conspiracy. Because he looked at the- the broken window, how the person had actually broken into our home, and said, "There's no way, zero chance, that a burglar would have broken into a house this way." He just was, like, 100% convinced that, immediately, that the break-in was staged. And if you take that, i- if you, in your brain, truly believe that...

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:11

       (sighs)

    6. AKAmanda Knox51:11

       ... then what logically follows is a lot of what he then came up with. Well, someone in the house is trying to cover up for a crime that they were involved in. Who lives in that house? Well, there are three other girls, one of whom was in Rome, one of whom is another Italian girl who was with her boyfriend and friends, and one of whom is the American girl who was with her boyfriend that night, but who also happened to be the one who called the police and brought attention to the house, so maybe because we found her at the scene of the crime, ma-... Like, all of it sort of starts to, like, make logical sense if you begin with a false premise.

16. 51:50 – 53:50

    He makes logical leaps

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:50

       How did he reconcile that in the book?

    2. AKAmanda Knox51:52

       In his book?

    3. JRJoe Rogan51:52

       Yeah.

    4. AKAmanda Knox51:53

       I mean, he-

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:54

       Because he's-

    6. AKAmanda Knox51:55

       ... he makes logical leaps. So he goes, "Okay, well, then we discovered that, you know, all of this DNA of the person who actually committed the crime," right? Like, you know, they- they finally get the DNA back, and it's all pointing to this guy who has a history of breaking and entering and a- and aggression towards women. And he doesn't go, "Oh, no, we made a mistake." He goes, "Oh, how can now he be involved in this thing that I know Amanda's involved in because I know the break-in was staged?" And, you know, like, so these- the- this is how a person with good- with genuinely good intentions can- can have false beliefs that then logic- from which one can logically derive an insane story that requires, like, him to now believe, like... One of the things that I pointed out to him that just, like, drives me nuts that he continues to, like, somehow hang onto is this idea that I was in a threesome with... Like, I was in a three-way relationship with my actual boyfriend, Raphaelle, and this burglar, Rudy Guede. And I was like, "Where are you coming up with that?" And he was like, "Well, uh, whenever I interviewed Rudy..." Like, he talks about interviewing, you know, interrogating Rudy. "Rudy always seemed to have affectionate things to say about you. He always seemed to, like, be interested in you. And from that, I can logically deduce that you guys had a relationship." But I was like-

    7. JRJoe Rogan53:21

       (laughs)

    8. AKAmanda Knox53:21

       ... we- we... Like, I didn't even know his name. There's no record of us ever communicating with each other. No one ever, like, saw us hanging out with each other. Like, "What are you talking about?" And he's like, "Well, if he was involved in the crime, and you're involved in the crime, and he's sort of talking about, you know, you in an affectionate way, then logically it makes sense that you were in this, you know, three-way relationship with Raphaelle and Rudy." And I'm like, "That's not true." And he's like, "Well, that's what it's- that's what made logical sense to me at the time."

17. 53:50 – 1:28:15

    You have too much power

    1. AKAmanda Knox53:50

       And-

    2. JRJoe Rogan53:50

       I think the issue is an egotistic idiot that has power. That's really what I think it is, 'cause I think if someone-

    3. AKAmanda Knox53:59

       It's certainly someone who has a belief and a confidence in their own abilities as a logical thinker. And I think anyone who is in that kinda position has to believe in themself in that kind of way, like-

    4. JRJoe Rogan54:13

       But not just that. Like, you have too much power. Like-

    5. AKAmanda Knox54:16

       Fair.

    6. JRJoe Rogan54:16

       ... there's not enough oversight. You have too much power. And then, you say something, and i- if your initial assertion is incorrect, you then have to defend it. So then, you do mental gymnastics-

    7. AKAmanda Knox54:26

       Right.

    8. JRJoe Rogan54:26

       ... to try to defend it-

    9. AKAmanda Knox54:27

       Right.

    10. JRJoe Rogan54:27

        ... at the expense of your fucking life.

    11. AKAmanda Knox54:30

        Yes.

    12. JRJoe Rogan54:30

        He was willing to put you away forever. Like, he had to know. At some point in time, in the back of his stupid brain, he had to know that you were innocent, and he was willing to push forward and concoct some sort of a-... three-way relationship narrative they still sticks to. Fuck that guy.

    13. AKAmanda Knox54:48

        (laughs) Well, and, and sometimes that's what my brain says. You know? Sometimes I-

    14. JRJoe Rogan54:53

        Your brain should say that.

    15. AKAmanda Knox54:54

        (laughs)

    16. JRJoe Rogan54:54

        You know? I mean, forgiveness is really important, but some people you just can't forgive. Like some people it's like, no, you need to come to grips with the fact that you're a piece of shit.

    17. AKAmanda Knox55:04

        (laughs)

    18. JRJoe Rogan55:05

        That's what's wrong here. It's not me forgiving you and you having this hall pass to just to be a piece of shit, because you had this theory that you're still accusing me of. No. That's, that's not... You're bad at what you do. And sometimes people are bad at what they do. Sometimes you get bad teachers, you get bad cops, sometimes, uh, you get a bad electrician, your house catches fire.

    19. AKAmanda Knox55:30

        Hmm.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:30

        Some p- some people suck at what they do, and to like have this like eternal forgiveness, (claps hands) like sometimes it's not smart to do that.

    21. AKAmanda Knox55:39

        (laughs) Well, certainly. And I, and I think that's really-

    22. JRJoe Rogan55:41

        Is he still working as a prosecutor?

    23. AKAmanda Knox55:42

        No, no. He's retired. He, he has retired. Yes.

    24. JRJoe Rogan55:44

        He should be in jail.

    25. AKAmanda Knox55:47

        (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan55:47

        Like literally.

    27. AKAmanda Knox55:47

        I do not wish jail upon him. I don't think- (laughs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan55:50

        Okay. That's sweet. But that's crime. Like what he did, it was not just a crime, but it was a conspiracy.

    29. AKAmanda Knox55:57

        Yeah. I, I, um, I would have to say that I agree that there sh-... I always wanted to... I always wondered where the adults were in the room. Like, uh, you know, the whole first two years of my imprisonment, I was like, "This is all a huge mistake, and it's really obviously a huge mistake." And when are, when are like the mommies and daddies gonna show up and say, "Okay, kids. Stop your squabbling. Like let's straighten things out." And I-

    30. JRJoe Rogan56:25

        There's no mommies and daddies.

Episode duration: 3:22:48