EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,028 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- NANarrator
(drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays)
- JRJoe Rogan
We're up.
- LCLuke Caverns
Awesome.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's up? How are you, man?
- LCLuke Caverns
How are you, man? How are you? It's great to meet you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Pleasure to meet you.
- LCLuke Caverns
It's a pleasure to meet you as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
I really enjoyed you on the Jesse Michaels podcast, so, uh, I had to have you on.
- LCLuke Caverns
Yes. Yeah, well, thank you so much, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
I love it when young people know so much about ancient history. Like, how did you get started in this?
- LCLuke Caverns
Um, well, it's, it's quite literally in my blood. Um, back in the late, well, I should say the 1890s, um, my family, they were cattle rustlers, uh, right here in the Hill Country, uh, actually, maybe a little bit further... Well, quite a, quite a bit further west of San Antonio.
- JRJoe Rogan
Damn, you come from a lot of criminals?
- LCLuke Caverns
Probably.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of, there's a lot of dark history in, in here.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) .
- LCLuke Caverns
Um, and, uh, so, (laughs) uh, they are... They're cattle rustlers that are out in Dryden, Texas, in Sanderson, Texas. And, uh, I mean, right on the Rio Grande. And they were, uh, that's how they made their money. They were fascinated, kind of like everybody, with, uh, with finding gold, with finding lost Spanish treasure, and, and, uh, you know, Native American artifacts. So, they're living in this area called the Reagan Canyon, and, uh, I, I've seen it all over the place, um. If you look on, I think, like, the Smithsonian did something on the top 10 forgotten places in the United States, it's like the most remote areas o- of our country, and somewhere in there is Reagan Canyon. And, uh, so out there, they developed this fascination for looking for lost Spanish gold. And, you know, there were bandits that would hide up in the hills and they would sack Spanish caravans and drag the gold up into the hills to not get caught, to hopefully come back for it later, and the, the Spanish are out there mining for gold and everything. Uh, so my family gets caught up in one of the biggest mysteries of Texas history. Like, if you were to look up... If you were to go to some bookstore, there's, there's a popular one called The Sons of Coronado, and it's like this legacy of people looking for Spanish gold.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- LCLuke Caverns
And somewhere in there, my family will, will be in there. And so, this started in the 1890s, and, um, there's this... It's this long saga of, of, uh, the gold being... The treasure being dragged to San Antonio and all these people get killed, and only one of these four Reagan brothers makes it out. He gets involved in, uh, in, um, uh, oil drilling out in East Texas. And then so, my family moved out to East Texas, and then his son was born, which is my grandfather. And then he continues this legacy of, um, of continuing his father's oil company, but then he also begins gold mining in New Mexico. And while he's out in New Mexico, he hears these legends of these seven lost Spanish gold mines. And, uh, because this local... There was a local police officer who was like a treasure hunter, and he knew who my grandfather was and the story behind our family. He sought him out and they went off looking together. A- and I don't know how long it took them to find it, but he found the seven lost Spanish gold mines of New Mexico.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- LCLuke Caverns
And, uh, and he opened up this, uh, company called Three Bells Mining and Milling Company. And that was open for about eight years, and they opened up these, they opened up these mines that go back to probably about the 1530s. I mean, th- so the Spaniards were up all the way in New Mexico in the 1530s, and they were opening up Native American gold mines and expanding them. And so he found these gold mines that go hundreds of feet into the ground as this huge, expansive, uh, gold mining operation. Well, somebody dies after a smelter explodes, and the company goes under. They lose everything. My family falls into poverty. My dad's born during that time, and my dad didn't really get to experience like all of that excitement. He had to spend his life climbing out of poverty. And, uh, but he had this love for history. He had this, uh, he had this love for, for American history, really, and he instilled in me the importance of history growing up. And that fascination of, of exploration an- and, uh, and kind of ancient American history, hearing those stories carried over into me during my childhood. And, uh, and so I've just... I have always been fascinated by this. And, um, I guess getting to where I am now, I, I was halfway through my marketing degree in college, and I'm, uh, (laughs) I'm sitting on my bed in my dorm room with my girlfriend at the time, who I'm married to now, and we watched the movie The Lost City of Z about Percy Fawcett.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- LCLuke Caverns
And something about that guy's journey reminded me so much of my family, kind of reminded me of my dad, reminded me of my grandpa, and it changed something in me. Like that day, I could not ignore... I was probably 20 at the time. I could not ignore this love that I always had for ancient history. But, you know, archeologists are poor. You know, their, their... It's a extremely hard life, and it's really hard on, on your family too. Um, and I just knew I had to, I had to create a life for myself where I could do what I loved because I had like a 1.7 GPA in college, and I was not going to, to make it through my classes. And so, I changed, I got a degree in cultural anthropology. Uh, I wrote... Like we had a mock thesis statement, and I wrote it on the Amazon, and, and the lost, uh, the lost civilizations and, you know, how they were wiped out from, uh, from, uh, Spanish influenza. And, um, yeah, so that's where I'm at today.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. I, I think, I think everybody, when you start looking at the history of the human race, and you start looking at the history of civilizations, everyone gets fascinated, because we kind of like woke up i- in this life. You know, we didn't choose to be born during this timeline, we woke up in this timeline, and we're like, "Uh, how did collectively we get here?" And then you have this narrative of how collectively go- we got here.
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But then you see there's holes in this narrative.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's real weird.
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Yeah. …
- LCLuke Caverns
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- LCLuke Caverns
That's just, uh, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's not a good look.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's a real problem with human beings, um, and ego when they have, uh, positions of power and authority, um, especially over something that is very esoteric-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... something that is, like ... and, and also completely complex.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, when you're dealing with trying to decipher hieroglyphs and trying to ... And then, you know, the fact that we know that the Library of Alexandria was burned down-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... so who knows what was lost in that.
- LCLuke Caverns
Several different times, like, five different times.
- JRJoe Rogan
God.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I w- I wonder who, if any of that just got stolen out of there, and then they blamed it on, like-
- LCLuke Caverns
Well, you know, so the, the first time-
- JRJoe Rogan
... how much of that shit is in the Vatican.
- LCLuke Caverns
... uh, Caesar is chasing his rival, Pompey, across the Mediterranean, and Pompey flees to Alexandria. And, um, Alexandria was kind of in the basket of Rome. Uh, they, the, the Ptolemies, who were the, the Greek pharaohs in, in Egypt. So the Greeks are controlling Egypt after Alexander comes in 332 BC. So Alexander dies, his best friend Ptolemy becomes pharaoh. So, um, but the Ptolemies were very weak, not very good rulers, and so Rome kind of does, like, what the US does, where they get pulled into conflicts, and then once they're there and they conquer everything, they seize all the power, you know. And so Rome had done this to, uh, had done this to Egypt, and so they controlled Egypt, and they were pulling all of their, um ... They were keeping the Ptolemies in power, uh, the Roman soldiers were, and they were pulling all that grain into Egypt. And so Caesar follows Pompey, uh, chases him to, to Alexandria, and so that Caesar can't f- or so that Pompey can't flee, Caesar says, "We'll burn the docks." Well, when you landed in Alexandria, uh, you would land at this dock that went to, uh, a road called Soma Road. So you had Soma Road and Canopic Way, and it was, like, this street corner. It must have been amazing to see in real life. Like, think about this, you have the Library of Alexandria, you ... All, all ... This is all on one block. You have the Library of Alexandria, you have the Museion, which is right next to it, so both together they make the world's first university. And, I mean, you can just imagine, like, walking through those halls. Across the street from that is, uh, Alexander's mausoleum. So, uh, his mausoleum, we think Ha- the Emperor Hadrian, if you've heard of Hadrian before-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- LCLuke Caverns
... um, that he modeled his mausoleum on Alexander's. So we kinda have an idea of, like, what the mausoleum may have looked like. It would have a marble statue of Alexander on top. So people are walking by every day in the middle of this town, and then across the street from that is the palatial district where all the rich people lived, and then off by the bay you would have had Cleopatra's palace. And so it was this beautiful place, but when the boats come into the dock you had to give up all the scrolls that you had, 'cause the Ptolemies are obsessed with obtaining the world's knowledge, and they want the originals, they don't want a copy. So what they would tell people is, "You give us your writings, we'll write down a copy, and we'll give you back your original." But what they would do is give back the copy and keep the original, and this is something called the Library Wars.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- LCLuke Caverns
This is a whole thing. So, um, but this wa- it was connected to the docks, and so most of the buildings in Alexandria are made out of stone to prevent fires, um, but the interior of Alexandria's library would have had all these wooden shelves that would cross where you'd stack all the scrolls in. So everything just ... Maybe the actual structure of the building doesn't burn down, but the entire interior of it burns up. And so when, uh, when Caesar sets fire to the docks to burn all of Pompey's ships, it crawls up the docks and burns the library down. Well, uh, um, Augustus did the same thing w-... what? A dec- a decade and a half later, Augustus came and he seized Alexandria. And this is where, this is when Cleopatra and Mark Antony die. He seizes it. And then there are rebellions because the Alexandrians are very rebellious. They don't want to be ruled by, uh, by the Romans. And, um, so there's, uh, I think it's, I think it's Caracalla that, uh, he was being made fun of by the Alexandrians. There was a theater in town. It's actually the place where standup comedy was invented, uh, in Alexandria. Yeah, so, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- LCLuke Caverns
... and, and the butt of all the jokes was always the Roman emperor.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- LCLuke Caverns
So, so you'd have people, like, (laughs) talking shit about the Roman emperor standing up, you know, in the, in the middle of Alexandria's, uh, theater. And so the Roman emperor was always the butt of the joke. Well, Caracalla, I believe it's Caracalla, he's, uh, one of the brothers in Gladiator 2, the, uh, the new Gladiator, if you've seen it.
- JRJoe Rogan
I haven't seen it.
- LCLuke Caverns
Um, he's, he's one of the brothers, but the movie doesn't really depict the, the actual emperors very accurately. Um, but he gets tired of it, so he just comes down to Alexandria on, like, a royal visit and executes 25,000 people in the city of Alexandria and burns down parts of it. So he burned down the library for the third time. And then there was another emperor named Aurelian, uh, when a local Alexandrian declared himself the new Egyptian pharaoh. I think he was a real Egyptian. Uh, he Egy- he, he declared himself, like, the newest pharaoh, and he l- he r- r- created this revolt. And then Aurelian had to come and put the revolt down, and he burned down the library again. So this is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- LCLuke Caverns
We're getting close to, like, 300 AD at this point. Now, in 365 AD, there was a, um, there was a, a huge earthquake, uh, that was off of the coast of Crete, I think, which is the most southern, uh, Greek isle. Uh, it's where the Minoans lived. I, I believe it's there. Or it's off the coast of Cyprus. And so that earthquake, like, like, just, uh, reverberates down to Egypt and this massive tsunami destroys the entire city of Alexandria. And it's said it was so catastrophic that, um, I think it's Pliny the Elder or Pliny the Younger comes down on a rescue mission from, from Italy, and he comes to Alexandria, and he records that 50,000 people in the city are missing because of, you know, the, the wave-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- 30:00 – 45:00
It's still interesting that…
- LCLuke Caverns
was still out there somewhere and he was trying to find either the ruins of it or the living city, right? So he didn't really know if it was fallen or not, so that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's still interesting that he would think that way instead of this is the pinnacle of civilization-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in the Amazon, which is why they're so advanced.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.... I'm not sure-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that, like, a preconceived notion that he had that there was an advanced civilization and that it had fallen?
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because if you're looking at the way the people were living, the way he's describing it-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it sounds pretty advanced.
- LCLuke Caverns
Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, why wouldn't you assume that these people had lived for thousands of years and eventually-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... risen to this current level?
- LCLuke Caverns
Oh, yeah, yeah. I, I don't know. I, I don't know. I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That's the problem with preconceived notions too.
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah, yeah. But I do know that, that he had, uh, he had the utmost admiration and respect for these people. Like, he, he was completely infatuated with their way of life and trying to... You know, what his goal was, was to prove that the, um, that the, like, the narrow-minded perspective of the English aristocrats who thought that they were the pinnacle of civilization, he was determined to prove them wrong.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- LCLuke Caverns
And so he had a great admiration for these people. Um, and, and he wanted to try to find, like, a, like, a big, big civilization, something with enough people that could rival, um, that could rival Europe. And where he went missing, um, was in the Mato Grosso region of Brazil and, uh, and the last place that they know that he was at was on May 29th, 1925, and he wrote a letter to his wife from Dead Horse Camp, and he was like, "It may be a while before you hear from me. It could be up to a year or two before you hear from me. I'm about to head into a very dense area and my trail runners..." who would, you know, go back and forth with his notes, they weren't gonna follow him out there because it's too dangerous. And, um, that was the last letter that he had written. And he was going, he was heading off into what's called the Xingu region, uh, which is, uh, like, the Xingu River and it's one of the most hostile regions in the Amazon, uh, maybe even, maybe even today. Uh, Teddy Roosevelt had trouble when, when he went there. Um, but the Xingu region is where all of the major LiDAR came out within the last 10 years of, of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- LCLuke Caverns
... they found all the ruins of these giant cities and there's a city called Cariguau, I think, and, uh, it had an estimated, um, population of about a million people, which is the size of Rome.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- LCLuke Caverns
And, um, you know, when you look at the LiDAR images, you can't get a perspective of how big they are. Uh, I, I have access to a LiDAR database of the entire United States and I've mapped all kinds of, uh, huge uncharted mound sites in Florida, uh, pfft, all of the Southeast. I, I have hundreds of sites marked and, um, when you first look at them on a map, you're like, like, "Oh, okay, like, maybe that looks like it's 50 feet long or something." No. They'll be, like, 300 yards long, like, these giant raised platforms in the, in the middle of the forest here in the US. And if I had access to LiDAR data like that where I could measure it down in the Amazon, some of these things are miles long. Like, raised platforms are a mile long-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- LCLuke Caverns
... and they have, and they have highways, like, um... You know, maybe we should pull up a, uh, a, just an image of a LiDAR scan from the Amazon. Um, but you'll, you'll see this, uh, central, um, city area. You'll see step pyramids and raised platforms. Maybe this is where people lived or maybe this is where the market was, and there will be a road that cuts straight through it and you can see the road just goes off in the distance for miles and miles and miles. And so what they would-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- LCLuke Caverns
... do... Here we go. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- LCLuke Caverns
This is, um... So this is one of these sites in, um, this is one of these sites, I believe this is in Brazil or maybe it's in Northeast Bolivia.
- JRJoe Rogan
And is all that area covered completely with jungle right now?
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Mm-hmm. …
- JRJoe Rogan
what he doesn't know and he has counterarguments to his own points. He'll tell you s- tell you something and then, "But also it could be this."
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
"And this is what we know." And because he's been really careful in the way he expresses himself, he's established this community that understands what he does and they trust him.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they go, "No, no, no. He's gonna tell you the truth. He's gonna tell you what we know and why we know it. He's not gonna make any weird ideological leaps. He's not gonna make any weird judgments. He's just gonna lay out what is fascinating about these things." And because of that, w- whether he has a degree or not a degree, that guy's having a massive impact.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, I don't know how many-
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah, nobody can deny that.
- JRJoe Rogan
What does Bright, what does Bright Insights YouTube channel have for subscribers? And it... By the way, if you haven't watched any of his videos, can't recommend them enough. Love the guy, love the stuff.
- NANarrator
1.7.
- JRJoe Rogan
1.7. By the way, he's been called a Nazi (laughs) .
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is, that's just, that's what they use. That's, the, these are the terms. You know, he's been called all, all sorts of terrible things. None of them are true. He's a wonderful guy and he's just a, a man who's deeply fascinated with these mysteries. And when he's pointing out the things that we cannot... Whether it's Baalbeck in Lebanon-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the, the trillion... What do they call it? The trillion stones?
- LCLuke Caverns
Trilithon stones, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Trilithon stones? What, what are the... Whatever. There's certain things that you can point out that people go, "Okay, what the fuck?" Like, he gets to the what the fuck stuff where everybody's like, "Okay, what else you got?"
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, like, uh, "How come I didn't know this? How come this isn't like something..." Like, when you're talking about ancient history, the history of, um, whether it's Lebanon or Egypt, and when they start talking about these things and they lay out the, the histories of the pharaohs and-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why aren't you talking about the distance-
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they carry these fucking enormous 80-ton rocks through the mountains?
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And how they cut them? Like, why... That's the mystery.
- LCLuke Caverns
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is the big piece of evidence that these guys just want to dismiss, "Oh, so it was the national project."
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, like, "Okay, yeah, but that doesn't say how you did that-
- LCLuke Caverns
No, it doesn't.
- 1:00:00 – 1:11:51
Mm-hmm. …
- JRJoe Rogan
the same thing.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It takes a lot of time.
- LCLuke Caverns
I mean, how-
- JRJoe Rogan
A lot more effort.
- LCLuke Caverns
Could you imagine?
- JRJoe Rogan
Weird, weird stuff. It's also like the idea that this is documenting time.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, you know, the, the, the, the handbags or whatever those things are, what it, what it actually is, is the sun going over the earth.
- LCLuke Caverns
Mm. You know, uh, I have, I'm, I'm writing a paper about this, um, but this might be a good place to talk about it. Um, so you know the, the handbag mystery is, is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- LCLuke Caverns
... very fascinating. We have them in Assyria, we have them, um, uh, Mesopotamia, um, I, as far as I know, I don't think one's been found in Egypt. You can, you can see them on the top of those T pillars in Göbekli Tepe and there's one in the Olmec realm. Are you familiar with this?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- LCLuke Caverns
Uh, Monument 19, if, if we could look that up. It, I mean, dude, it, it, it, I think it's the coolest handbag. And when I saw it in person, I like jumped. Uh, I- I'd been waiting years to see it.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy. It's the same thing?
- LCLuke Caverns
Mo- uh, Olmec Monument 19. The, so this guy, he's wrapped in, uh, he's, he's sitting in Quetzal-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- LCLuke Caverns
He's sitting in Quetzalcoatl. If you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- LCLuke Caverns
Could you do the one at the top left where we get the full picture? There we go. So this stone is probably about this big.It's probably about this big and it sits on a table like this. Um, so he's sitting inside the feathered serpent, Quetzalcoatl-
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- LCLuke Caverns
Um, and so he's sitting inside the feathered serpent and he's holding this handbag. And I'm not sure... So he has this, uh... And if you can- if you see, he has a feathered serpent mask around his head as well. I'm not sure what exactly is above him. There- well, there are actually two, um... It's really hard to- to make it out, but what's above him, that little box-looking thing-
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- LCLuke Caverns
... is some kind of box that's being held up by two birds on each end. But the im- the important thing here is the fact that this is the first depiction of the feathered serpent in all of Mesoamerica that we know of, and it's, uh... It might be the oldest handbag known as far as, like, what we have official dates for. And so the idea here is that he's some kind of sacred shaman, bringer of enlightenment, bringer of knowledge, something like that. And so I had been on the hunt for another handbag. Everywhere I go, I'm always looking for a handbag. I was in Cambodia a couple weeks ago. I'm going around the temples of Angkor Wat, and there's hieroglyphs and- and, uh, and, uh, carvings all over the walls. I'm looking for a handbag, I can't find one. But when I was in, um, when I was in Central Mexico, I was at a site called Cacaxtla, and I found another handbag person. I've never m- uh, like, officially published it. It's on my X, if you'd wanna look it up.
- NANarrator
What is the timeline for that one?
- LCLuke Caverns
They don't really know. Uh, when you look at the monument, it says, uh, it says anywhere from 1400 BC to 400 BC. That's just what they think. I mean, the Olmec-
- NANarrator
Just a guess.
- LCLuke Caverns
The Olmec realm is so uncertain and, um, and we don't have hard dates for almost- for almost anything. They appear on the historical li- on this historical timeline as a fully-fledged civilization capable of creating what you're seeing from the (snaps fingers) very beginning, just like so many civilizations. It's like as soon as they arrive on, you know, as soon as they arrive in the world, they're doing everything to the fullest capacity and, uh, we don't have any evidence in the Olmec realm of them working their way towards being able to do things like this. It's just from the very beginning, they're able to make monuments like this, move these 50-ton Olmec heads. Uh, the largest head is, uh... This- you'll find this interesting. Um, so there was a nautical engineer that, uh, MEK, which is an organization I'm- I'm with. It's the Maya Exploration Center. It's- it's run by Dr. Ed Barnhart, and I'm- I'm a- a member of it. And, um, and one of the guys that worked with us, uh, traveled into the Olmec realm, and he- he's a nautical engineer and he's fascinated with, um... He's fascinated with how were the Olmecs moving these huge heads up and down these rivers. So they live in, like, the rivers, swamps, they have to cross some mountain ranges. How are you getting these heads 90 miles away, uh, from the Sierra de Tuxtla volcanic belt? That's where they're pulling the basalt from, 'cause we found unfinished heads, like, at the base of these big basalt quarries, and they're transporting them 90 kilometers away through, you know, like I was saying, rivers and valleys.
- NANarrator
90 miles or kilometers?
- LCLuke Caverns
I think it's kilometers.
Episode duration: 2:57:20
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