EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,114 words- 0:00 – 0:47
Rogan reacts to Bono’s film: black-and-white “fever dream” memoir on stage
- BOBono
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
(instrumental music plays) Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Uh, I fucking loved your film. It was really great.
- BOBono
You saw it?
- JRJoe Rogan
Watched it last night, yeah.
- BOBono
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was cool too, because I always feel special when I gotta p- enter in the password 'cause I know that nobody else has seen it yet, you know? I gotta e- enter in the email and the password, and I watched it, and I screen mirrored it on the TV. It was great, man. And it's, it was so, uh, like, almost like a fever dream. It was wild, like the way you set it up, all black and white.
- BOBono
Yeah. If you get past the first three minutes... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- BOBono
... it is a ... I could... I, I ... Even my own mates were like, "Oh, don't do that."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
(laughs) It's like, wow. And, and it is like a fever dream.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- BOBono
That opening. But that really happened to me, so you know.
- 0:47 – 2:58
Early U2, punk shouting, and how grief surfaced in “I Will Follow”
- JRJoe Rogan
Well it was great, man. It's great. And it's also like, I love the way you did it, like you played the beginning of some songs, and you talked about the origin of the songs. The thing that I have a hard time believing, though, is that you weren't a good singer when you were young.
- BOBono
(clicks tongue) Well, you know punk rock, you're a bit of a shouter. You know, that's really what you do, you just get up there and shout. You, sh- I'm shouting at God, I'm shouting at everyone. Right? I'm shouting at the band. That scene in the, in w- when we're doing I Will Follow-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
... that's really true. So I'm, I'm there and we're improvising this song that becomes I Will Follow If You Walk Away, Walk Away, Walk A- I mean, it's like this while we're ... We're trying to get s- just do something original, and we're really ripping (laughs) off ... The irony is we're really ripping off Public Image Limited, this... Johnny Rotten became John Lydon again for this band called Public Image Limited back in the late '70s. And, and I'm singing about, you know, it's a suicide note really, and I'm singing about this c- and they're saying, like, "What's it about?" And I said, "I think it's this, it's this guy is gonna follow somebody into the grave, you know? They're gonna ... It's, I think it's about a, it's a, it's a s- it's a child following their mother, missing them so much that he'll follow them into the grave."
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- BOBono
And then, we realized that our, our, our rehearsal room, the little yellow house, is beside the cemetery where my mother is buried.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- BOBono
And I've never visited her once, or talked about her once. And we're, we'd been rehearsing there for months. And it's funny, you know, you can deny somebody in conversation, you can deny somebody to yourself, but in the songs, all that shit comes out.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Wow.
- BOBono
So, yeah. But thank you for watching it. That's, that's, um ... Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
I loved it. (clears throat) It w- it was such an interesting w- way you put it all together. I've never seen anybody do that like that. Like, you did like, it- it, it's like a documentation of your career, but in this like, very unique way with like, talking about things and then explaining these moments, and then the music plays, and it's, and it's all black-and-white. It was really cool.
- 2:58 – 8:01
Turning a memoir into a live show: fear of self-indulgence and finding humor onstage
- BOBono
Yeah. There's a ... (clears throat) There's a sort of ... Black-and-white lends it a kinda clarity. I did this series of shows in the, the Beacon, uh, Theatre in New York. And, and it was going so well, we thought we should record it. I will tell you, the night before we opened our show in New York, my missus, Ali, (laughs) said, "I don't think you should do this."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
"Just please, please do not do this to yourself in front of, you know, a New York crowd. Cancel it now, do what most people do on a book tour, get somebody to (laughs) interview them, and just, they'll come anyway, everyone will be happy." And I don't know, I just went, for once, I'm, I didn't take her sage advice and I, I did it. And the difference was, with an audience, it was funny. And she was like, "Oh, that's the bit I didn't get in the rehearsals. It's funny."
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. So what was she thinking? It was self-indulgent?
- BOBono
It's just ... Uh, that it was dull, self-indulgent, here you are. I mean, all these things, they're a version of ... L- (laughs) here's another great thing about me. No.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
I, I mean, it is a ... I was calling it a memoir.
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat) Right. Uh-huh.
- BOBono
Me- me book what I wrote meself, it's the memoir. And it i- ... Look, there's something narcissistic and ... But it's, it's your material, you know? That's what you get. Your k- y- you know, your ... It's not just your body, your psychology is the canvas, and you know, I grew up John Lennon, you know ... The Beatles were everything for me. And you know, John Lennon made a sort of performance art out of his wedding to Yoko, and he did a bed-in for peace, and he was ready to look ridiculous for peace. And you know, I do ridiculous (laughs) quite well, (laughs) I'm told. So that was my definition, you know, of, of art really-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
... was to just, just go out there. But the thing that being in U2, it was just giving me everything, (clicks tongue) took away, if it took away anything, was, you know, people don't come along to our shows for a belly laugh. You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- BOBono
So as a comedian, you understand that, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
It's, it's like I ... You know, I had wrote this (clears throat) line, it came outta nowhere, I, I haven't put it in a song yet, I don't think, but you know. I think it's, um, laughter is the evidence of freedom. And I don't ta- I don't trust people to talk about freedom now, I want people to be free. If you are, if you talk ... Be, be it then. Be it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
And, and so I wanted to be that on stage. I wanted to be loose, I wanted to be myself, I wanted to own up to the ridiculousness of my life, as I've just explained, the madness of my (laughs) family, but turns out it's ... everyone's family is a little opera. And it is a bit of a soap opera, but it's also, also a, a real opera. These are big feelings, you know?... you're going after your da, like you're like a young, what, you know, elk is a romantic word for it, (laughs) but it's, you know, you're just taking him on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
And this poor man is just... He's lost his, his wife. He's trying to bring up two kids. I'm just a- an obnoxious kind of thing who some- somehow psychologically blames him for the death of my mother, because as Jim Sheridan says to me, (imitates Jim Sheridan) "It doesn't have to be actually true to be psychologically true."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
(laughs) And that kids feel-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
... all these feelings, you know, and they don't have to be logical. And, and I went after my da, and I... By playing him every night in, in the Beacon Theatre and around the world, I actually learned to, to love him. Uh, I learned to like him, actually. I always loved him, but I learned to like him. That was... He made me laugh more. So I got humor.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- BOBono
Humor was the gift from that show, and...
- JRJoe Rogan
And the humor was evident with the audience there.
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
But not evident- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
In rehearsals.
- 8:01 – 11:12
Feral performers and breaking the fourth wall: Iggy Pop, Patti Smith, and crowd chaos
- BOBono
Well, the one- what happened was Andrew Dominik, Australian director, and he did some of the sh- the, the, the shots without any audience, just he cleared them out on a day off. And then some of them came in, which were hardcore fans, as you say, and that was, in a way, that was, that was, that was the most terrifying, um, because I, as a performer, I'm drawn to spontaneous acts. That's what... When we started out as a band, I was attracted to performers who I thought might leave the stage-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BOBono
... and follow me home, mug me, or- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
... you know, you know, tell my fortune, or, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
... uh, whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wild people.
- BOBono
W- well, just, yeah. I mean, and I'm still attra- Iggy Pop-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
... when I was growing up was the, you know... Patti Smith. I'm, I'm-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
Patti Smith used to enter the stage elbowing her way through the crowd. Myself and Larry Mullen, drummer in U2, we, we left stage one night in the, like, when we were, like, 21, 20 years old, elbowing our way through, through the crowd to get out, just got into a taxi in London, fucked off. (laughs) And, and we felt a liberation. You know, breaking the fourth wall has been everything for our bands, trying to smash it by surfing it, um, you know, by, by jumping into the crowd. I had the, um, preposterous moment of going into a crowd in the, in Los Angeles. I forget, the Forum or somewhere like that, (clears throat) with a white flag, right, the nonviolent white flag, the same flag that I'm still on about, the flag of Surrender, right, in that show. (laughs) But back then I'm 23 or whatever, and I'm going into the crowd, and I see people who are, you know, pulling at me and all this. The next thing, and I'm th- I'm throwing a punch, somebody in our own, our, in our own (laughs) audience. That's how much nonviolence meant to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
You know, you know, (laughs) but I, uh, I'm a- I'm attracted to feral performers, I suppose is a word for it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
It's just- it's, it's... You're in it, and you're not-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not contrived.
- BOBono
... fully in control of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BOBono
And (clears throat) Mark Rylance is a great one. Daniel Day-Lewis walked offstage one night, saw a ghost of his father, rumor had it when he was playing Hamlet, but yeah. So having the crowd in who knew what was gonna happen, that unnerves me a bit because I c- how do I surprise them? Turns out by making... I w- I b- I became a sit-down comic. Does that make-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
If you're a stand-up, for a minute, a minute I was a sit-down c- comedian.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what you're doing and what, what, I think what you're saying that you're attracted to is something that's not contrived, something that's pure. It could be messy. It could be wi- it could be, you know, Patti Smith elbowing people-
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... or you running through the crowds.
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- 11:12 – 17:58
What makes music ‘real’: primal ritual, awe, and Bono’s Johnny Cash stories
- JRJoe Rogan
There's... It's, it's real. And there's so much in this world that's not real. There's so much that's manufactured. There's so much that's produced and run through a focus group. And there's so, there's so much that doesn't resonate. Like you don't feel it as a piece of art. You don't feel it as, like, a real person pouring out their emotions and their soul. But great music, you feel. It, it gets into you. It gets into your cells, you know? It's a-
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And no one can f- figure out wh- how it works, or why it works, or why this w- does and this doesn't. And why does Johnny Cash have such a fucking cool voice? Like it's, what is it? What, what is it? Like but-
- BOBono
I, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
... there's something about-
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... real that's just... It's like a vitamin. It's like going out in the sun when it's been raining, like, "Ah." Like you, you, you soak it in.
- BOBono
Yeah. It is, you know-I mean, you can ... There's pretentious ways of describing it, and people say it's we, we first sang to each other before we spoke, you know, like, like bird song. I don't know who said that. It's probably on drugs. But (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
... but could have been a scientist. And, um, uh, anthropology might suggest we certainly ... that goat song, you go back to Greek tragedy, you had a drum and a voice. So it's very primal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
And, and there is ... It is the language of the spirit. It, we, we ... It, it is somehow there is worship involved, whether it's God, nature, money, a extraordinary woman has just walked across the street. But it seems to be that music is where we are creatures of, uh, awe-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- BOBono
... and, and wonder. And, and, and, you know, you mentioned Johnny Cash. I, I had, I had the blessing in my life of, of getting to know him, and as a believer, I don't know if you know, I- I'm a believer, I'm just not a very good one, (laughs) but he ... There was no- not a pious bone in his body, and, and I learnt th- that by the company he would choose. He didn't like ... He, he got nervous around people who were too self-righteous, and he had this huge spirit in him, you know, prayerful spirit. Myself and Adam Clayton were, were, um, driving through America, I think, around the time of The Joshua Tree, and I'd met Johnny a couple of years ... But he's, you know, I found out where he, where he lived. He had a zoo in Nashville. He had a house in Nashville, and we go into ... To, to meet June, uh, his missus, and, and Johnny, and, and he shows us this table. It's filled with plates of every ... Like, I'm like, "Wow, we're coming. We're just the two of us." She said, she said, "No, honey, that's my cookbook. I'm just doing a photo shoot for my cookbook. We're in here, you know. We're having a ..." So we go into their kitchen, and we sat there, myself and Adam, and, uh, and, uh, Johnny goes, "Sh- shall, shall we pray?" And, uh, Adam's wasn't a praying type at that, at that time, but he was like, "Well, it's Johnny Cash."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
So, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
You have to pray.
- BOBono
... we, we all held hands and whatever, and Johnny Cash made this beautiful, poetic blessing, and I, I just thought like, "Wow, of course, he's touched," and then he just turned to Adam and just goes, "Sure miss the drugs, though."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
And Adam just f- fell in love with him, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
Because he couldn't be pious.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BOBono
He just ... He had to be himself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
Um, years later, if it's ... Years later, and we really-
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at that.
- BOBono
Oh, wow, there you go. Oh, that's so ... Oh my God.
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is.
- BOBono
That's Adam there, yeah.
- 17:58 – 24:46
Sinatra as a masterclass: ‘My Way’ becomes an apology and the craft of phrasing
- BOBono
Oh, man. Well, they're two incredible people, and don't get me started on, on Frank Sinatra 'cause, um ... How long is this, by the way? The-
- JRJoe Rogan
As long as we wanna go.
- BOBono
Well, no, 'cause-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why?
- BOBono
Well, just, uh, Frank Sinatra ... Now he- it's, it's two questions. (laughs) One of them should be Frank Sinatra, because I- I'd just- I can go on and on. I, I learned so much from him, and I got to know him, and as bizarre as that sounds, um ... He's such a name-dropper, Frank. Um, no. But, uh, I did. And probably, if you're interested in singing, I could tell you one miracle that I learned from Frank Sinatra, which is a version of, of My Way. And the original version, you know, it's a boast. And years later, he sang it, and I have a copy of it. It's, um ... And Pavarotti stars in the film. As you know, I- I'm- I'm-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
... I- I play him for, for a moment. But it's a version of My Way with ... I mean, Pavarotti's the greatest singer on earth, but shouldn't sing in English. << Friends, I do it now >> You don't want-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
You don't want that. And so I have a version of it with- without the greatest singer in the history of the world, Pavarotti, on it. It's just Frank singing, 20 years after he'd sung My Way as a boast. Same key, same text, same arrangement, and now it's an apology.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- BOBono
And that's a, that's the thing about singing, and Johnny Cash had that. And, you know, I- I- I wish, I aspire to the place when my voice, to- to- to try and answer your first question, when I become a singer that can do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sinatra, most people don't realize, had a completely different voice when he was younger.
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
His voice when he was younger was very high-pitched-
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and beautiful. It had so much-
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... flexibility to it, and so much tone. And then probably all the cigarettes and Jack Daniels-
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... over the years sort of hardened his voice.
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then-
- BOBono
Skinny kid. He, he used to, he used to s- swim underwater to get his, to get his lung expanded, so he could get those bigger, bigger, bigger notes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, we have his mug shot out there. He got arrested when he was, like, 125 pounds.
- BOBono
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He got arrested for, um ... What was the term? De- seduction? I think it was seduction. I think he seduced a married woman. Yeah.
- BOBono
Oh, my lord.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. There he is.
- 24:46 – 29:41
Imposter syndrome and swagger as armor: Super Bowl after 9/11 and a Dylan fiasco
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it surreal when you were a young man and you were just starting to achieve success to encounter these people that were essentially heroes, and be embraced by them and hang around them? You know, a lot of people feel imposter syndrome, like they feel just... It's bizarre to be around these legendary human beings. Like, they're right there. Like, I, I, I still kinda get weirded out by it. Even when I met you today, I'm like, "Oh, that's Bono." Like it's still weird, you know? It's still weird to meet people that are, like, hugely famous.
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And when you were a young man, when, when U2 was just blowing up, was it strange, the, the transition... Like to accept the fact, like, "This is where we are. We belong here"?
- BOBono
Bu- Well, you, you, you got it right the first time. There is a part of you that doesn't think you belong here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BOBono
And then when you're younger, you, you, you're not admitting that to yourself. And I have a, I've, I've a few annoying (laughs) more than a few annoying aspects depending on who you, you're talking to. But if I have an annoying gene, um, part of it is, when I'm at my most vulnerable, I'm a- I give it the most swagger.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- BOBono
So we were playing the Super Bowl. We were walked on just after 9/11, big emotional moment, and we're... We got eight minutes, whatever, to switch over, and I've got my ears in 'cause the only way I'm in touch with what's go- what's, what's going on, and we're walking through the crowd. We've got the crowd on the, on the pitch, I think one of the first times that was ever done. And, and somebody goes, "Yay," and they boom, and I can feel my ear come out. And that will mean I'm off air. And if you look at the film, as I've had to, of us walking (laughs) up to get on stage, I am giving it so much chin. You just go, "Who is that obnoxious Irish fucking..."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
"What, where does he get that attitude?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Here it is right here.
- BOBono
Oh, there it is. Uh, I think I'm singing there, so it's... If you just go back (laughs) a little bit, you'll get the real, uh, that's the chin. No, no, just before there, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
... but, uh, but look, not a care in the world. And that's, I mean, bullshit is a word for it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
Swagger is another word for it. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a shield.
- BOBono
... it's a shield.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
And as I get older, I... You know, part of the film was taking off my armor and just dropping the sword, dropping the shield, taking it off. And now, in that moment, you wake up, it's a bit like the dream where you're naked in front of the whole school (laughs) and, and it's really cold. And, and, and then you realize, yeah, your life, as you are realizing yourself now, "Oh, how did this happen to me?" And, "And how did I get to meet these extraordinary people?" And so it's... That's why I wrote the book, Surrender. That's why I did it. But 'cause it was just starting to realize. When I was younger, I was like, "Yeah, you know." Uh, Bob Dylan once asked us, I was 24, and he says, uh... He was recording there. I was gonna interview him, and he said, "Do you wanna go on stage or whatever and do a song?" And I said, "Well..." He said, "Leopard Skin Pillbox Hat's an amazing song." I said, "Oh, if the lyrics allowed to," I... And I'd been learning to improvise as a singer, and, um, and I, uh, I went out on stage. And he said, "Do you know Blowing in the Wind?" (laughs) I said, "I probably, uh, I probably got that one down," but I didn't.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- BOBono
And I just walked out on stage, and I could see it was a home crowd, Ireland people. "Oh wow, this... One of ours is up there with Bob Dylan. Wow. Oh, it's Bono. Wow, okay." "And he's gonna sing... Oh my God, he can't sing. Oh, oh, he's changed the melody. Oh, he's changed the words."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
And you could just see him go down in flames. And afterwards, I see Bob and I said, "Look, I'm sorry about that. I've just... It's just the way we've been working at the moment is just kinda improvising stuff." And he was like, "It's okay. You know, everything... I, I make 'em up all the time," and he was generous about it. "Nothing's fixed in time." Something like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a great Bob Dylan impression.
- BOBono
Yeah.
- 29:41 – 34:59
Pavarotti, Princess Diana, and using celebrity to reach his father
- JRJoe Rogan
One of my favorite moments in the film was when your bandmates were concerned that Pavarotti was gonna show up with a camera crew.
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he showed up with a camera crew. (laughs)
- BOBono
He did. He did. One of the-
- JRJoe Rogan
And it was just funny. It was like a, it was a really well-timed moment, like, and when you said it on stage, it was so well-timed because it's like here you're honoring this man who's like this incredible, fantastic singer, but your bandmates, they've got a good instinct like, "This is gonna be a big press op as well, like, this is part of the reason why he wants to do this." And then that's not gonna be fun 'cause it's gonna be weird, and then, boom.
- BOBono
Yeah, one of the great, one of the great arm wrestlers, um, emotional arm wrestlers of all time. He, he, it's interesting that there was a generosity there which, whi- which, which he wanted opera, because opera was kind of the punk of its time. Classical musicians looked down on opera, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- BOBono
These are stories from the street. They're, they're too accessible, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- BOBono
And... Oh, yeah, yeah, opera-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's crazy. I would have never imagined that.
- BOBono
Opera was much rougher, and his... and he instinctively knew, and he was constantly trying to make relationships that would cross the divide and make sort of opera popular. And so, to the point where, yeah, he did. He used to call our house and say... y- y- you know, at first it was with me, but then when... He would haunt our housekeeper, Theresa, and say, like, "Is God at home?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
"Well, tell God to... he is late on the song." Or, you know, he'd do this kind of carry on. And, and I... again, this, these figures in, in my life. I knew that I was in... you know, on sacred ground when I was near him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BOBono
I knew this. But the band, they didn't have the... (laughs) they didn't have the relationship with opera. They... well, actually, Edge's dad was into opera, but my dad... it was, it was... I u- I was using Luciano Pavarotti to get to my dad.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
That was the real thing. And so, as you see in the film, I play my father just by turning my head.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
And I become him. And, and, and I was trying to impress him. I'd be in Finnegan's Pub, where we'd be sitting not speaking to each other, and, and, and I try something and I go, um, "What do you think about, uh, Luciano Pavarotti calling the house?" And he'd go, "Did he get a wrong number?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
You know, it'd be all that. And, and so, yeah, there was an emotional through line because our house was an opera. Unfortunately, my dad was... going on in his life was operatic. Um, but it's also funny.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah, and it's also this... you are both celebrating the brilliance of this incredible singer, and also you're, you're taking the piss out of this whole cult of celebrity thing that comes along with it.
- BOBono
Yeah. And Princess Diana.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah.
- BOBono
The best line-
- JRJoe Rogan
That thing with your dad and Princess Diana was hilarious? (laughs)
- BOBono
So... because Edge's, Edge's dad is, is, uh... Edge's mother and father are from Wales. So to... you know. So we're with Pavarotti in M- Modena, I think it was, and he... s- s- so the Princess of Wales is meeting the great tenor, and he is offered to meet, you know, anyone who wants... you know, Edge's family, because they're from Wales, to meet the Princess of Wales. And he says to me, "Look, do, do, does your dad want to go?" And I of course know the reason. I know the answer and the reason for the answer. But he says, "Well, just ask him." So I ask him. I just go, "Dad, listen, you wouldn't want to, uh, go meet Lady Di, you know, the princess?" "What? What? Uh, why would I want to meet a member of the British royal family? That's like asking me do I want to meet the winner of the lotto." And I'm like, "Okay, got it, got it, got it." And then later, she comes into our dressing room and melts him-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
... just by reaching her hand out, "How do you do?" And he's like, "Oh, very well, thank you." Um, and as I say, 800 years of oppression gone in a second.
- 34:59 – 52:08
America as an idea: anti-bullying roots, Buffett’s activism advice, and AIDS policy wins
- BOBono
Well, were you... were you... I've read that you got into martial arts because you felt picked on at some point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
Is that true?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
- BOBono
So you don't like bullies?
- JRJoe Rogan
No. No. No, I don't like that at all. It's the weakest inclination of the human spirit, you know, to pick on the weak. It's terrible. It's, uh-
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's a terrible instinct that humans have from... probably from the time where you had to ostracize weak people because you lived in a tribe of people barely surviving and you couldn't tolerate any weak links in the chain. I mean, that's essentially probably where it came from. It probably came out of a survival instinct-
- BOBono
A Darwinian thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
... yes, where everyone was barbarians and you had to force people to be the hardest version possible, because otherwise the genes wouldn't survive.
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then-
- BOBono
It is... the survival of the fittest, it's... yeah, which is the world we live in.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
I mean, this is one of the things that attracts me to Christianity, is the idea of the first will be last and the last will be first. It's so radical.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- BOBono
And it's literally the opposite of the survival of the fittest.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BOBono
But America... why I love America is, is it has... I mean, the British Empire bullied it.... and it stood up. I was... We were coming here, uh, I was asking someone in the car about th- the Declaration of, of Independence and, you know, how many Irish signatures there were or... It wasn't that many, I can't remember what there were. But they were all committing treason, man.
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- BOBono
They were putting their lives... They were pledging their lives, their fortune, and their sacred honor. So America, the very essence of America is this idea of sticking it to the bully.
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- BOBono
And, and I know America can be a bully. We all g- we have our moments and all, uh, and all that. But it's the essence of who you are, and, and it happened again with the, the geezer with the tash, um-
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- BOBono
(laughs)
- NANarrator
The geezer with the tash, that's a great way of-
- BOBono
You know, the-
- NANarrator
... calling Hitler.
- BOBono
You know, but-
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- 52:08 – 1:03:46
Aid, fraud, and overcorrection: USAID cuts, moral urgency, and how policy breaks people
- BOBono
all of that was torn down without a heads-up, without any notice because people thought foreign aid was like 10% of the budget or 20%, and it was doing things that it shouldn't have been doing. And I'm sure there was some waste, but I can tell you, as a person who, who saw what the United States were doing around the world and saw this, this... I saw America display itself at its finest. And I remember being in the Oval Office with President Bush and, and ha- and these antiretroviral drugs, I said, "Paint them red, white, and blue, Mr. President. These are the best advertisements for America there'll ever be." And he's looking at me (laughs) thinking I'm taking the piss, but I'm not, and he wasn't as it turns out. And, and he, he spoke about the, the least of these, which is a wild concept. I don't know if you know this, but it's like the... it's, uh, it's in Matthew, I think it is. It's, it's, it's, uh, it w- it's the only time that, um, Jesus speaks of judgment. It's not like what's going on in your pants. It's not like (laughs) what's going on over here or over there. The first time Jesus Christ speaks in kind of force of judgment is the way we treat the poor-
- NANarrator
Hmm.
- BOBono
... the poorest of the poor, and he says, "Well, in the way that you're treating these, the least of, of them, the, the sick, the blind, the people w- w- who, who are suffering from malnutrition, that's how you treat me. I am them." And so now, when we cut to the people... Like you, you went to Boston University, r- um, you taught at f- uh, Boston University, right?
- NANarrator
I taught martial arts there, yeah.
- BOBono
So, so just recent report, th- it's not proven, but their surveillance enough suggests 300,000 people have already died from just this cutoff, this hard cut of USAID. So there's food rotting in boats, in warehouses. There is... This, this, this will, will fuck you off. This will not... You will not be happy. No American will. But there is, I think it's 50,000 tons of food-... that are stored in Djibouti, South Africa, Dubai, and wait for it, Houston, Texas. And it, that is rotting, rather than going to Gaza, rather than going to Sudan, because the people who know the codes- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- BOBono
... or for the warehouse th- tha- tha- are fired, they're gone. And so this, I don't know, I just, it's, I'm... What do you think? What, what i- what is, what is that? That's n-
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- BOBono
That's not America, is it?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, they're throwing the baby out with the bath water.
- BOBono
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? This is the problem. The problem is, e- for sure, there have been a lot of organizations that-
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... do tremendous good all throughout the world. Also, for sure, it was a money-laundering operation. For sure, there was no oversight. For sure, billions of dollars are missing, in fact, trillions, that are unaccounted for, that were sent off into various... Th- they, they don't even know where because there's no receipts. The way Elon Musk described it, he said, "If any of this was done by a public company, the company would be delisted and the executives would be in prison." But in the United States, this is standard. When Biden left office, when it was clear that Trump won in the 73 days, they spent $93 billion from the Department of Energy on just radical loans, just throwing money into places.
- BOBono
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And there's no, no oversight, no receipts. Like, the, the whole thing is w- it's, there's a lot of fraud, a lot of money laundering. But also, we help the world, and when you're talking about making wells for people in the Congo to get fresh water, when you're talking about food and medicine to places that don't have access, like, no way that should've been cut out, and that should've been clear before they make these radical cuts. Like, there's gotta be a way to keep aid and not have fraud. And you can't ha-
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You can't say, "We're gonna kill everything so that there's no fraud." But then you're killing all the good, and you're doing it without letting anybody know it's gonna happen so no one's... It's not like they had three years to prepare, "Let's build a new infrastructure."
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Let's make sure that everything's set up."
- BOBono
Hmm. Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They want to change and they want to change quickly. And due to the nature of American politics, they have about two years before the midterms, right? So everything has to get done as quickly as possible. You have to have show of growth in GDP. You have to show that the economy's booming again under these ideas, make America first, tariffs for the world, bring back American manufacturing, and this mad rush to do it all as quickly as possible while cutting out as much waste as possible.
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the ironic thing is even though Elon Musk has proposed all these things and the Doge Committee has proposed all these things, they've made no cuts in terms of the budget. They've cut nothing.
- BOBono
They ve- it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
They vote against it.
- BOBono
... such a tiny part, I mean, if, if, if, if it's big government or whatever p- people wanna, wanna shrink, I, I, I, I, I g- I, I get the instinct. But this, the life-saving part-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- BOBono
... i- i- it's like the little finger of the giant.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Exactly.
- 1:03:46 – 1:08:06
Free speech, bots, and fundamentalism: how the internet distorts reality and polarizes
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I would give you zero advice. I, I don't know if I'm qualified to give advice. But I would say that America goes through these great periods of overcorrection.
- BOBono
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It goes these great periods of... like you, you saw it during COVID, during the lockdowns and the authoritarianism, and we fell into a kind of state of tyranny where there was just massive oppression of free speech, including government-sponsored oppression. They were contacting, uh, different social media platforms and banning legitimate doctors and scholars because they had different opinions about how things-
- BOBono
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... should be handled. There was a wide scale censorship, a push for a changing of the First Amendment, "The First Amendment needs to be overhauled. The First Amendment doesn't appl- apply to hate speech or to disinformation." There was all these, like, new ways of talking about censorship-
- BOBono
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in this country and condoning censorship, and it's very dangerous because it's all about money. It had nothing to do with protecting people. There's-
- BOBono
That's what I worry about.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- BOBono
The, the argument about free speech is that it seems to be sponsored by a lot of people who you sense don't really respect it so much. And it... but it is a very economic, um, for them to not have to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- BOBono
... to live with the consequences-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- BOBono
... of, of a story. I think... Well, is it the communication? Do, do... I think it's the... 'Cause in 1996, this is a long time ago, Communications Act, Decency Act, that meant the internet did not have to apply by the same rules as the rest of the media.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- BOBono
So, we could say anything we wanted. And at first, that felt like liberation, but I'm not so sure anymore. And so, I mean, I, I... You can tell me more about this. I'm, I'm, I am not a free speech absolutist, um, but I, like... I do want to believe in free speech. But I'm nervous that the people who are supporting free speech and, and using their bots and their, their, their own activists are, are people from countries who would not at all respect our, your, or mine ability to express ourselves. And, um, that's what I worry about, is... I think, I think the, the old interweb is being (laughs) is being played like a, like a harp-
- JRJoe Rogan
Unquestionably.
- BOBono
... like, like an orchestra.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- BOBono
And the people, you know, behind the curtain w- would surprise us, I think, if we knew.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's worse than that. I think it's programmed like an EDM concert. I think... I don't... I think it's not even an orchestra. I, I, uh, I worry... And this has been substantiated by data that more than 50% of the interactions going on on the internet and social media are not real.... and there was a-
- BOBono
That's wild, this statistic.
- JRJoe Rogan
... former FBI analyst-
- BOBono
Sounds like so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Former FBI analyst had said it might be as much as 80%.
- BOBono
Um.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's bots, as you said. And this is, this is a problem with the concept of free speech. I'm, I'm completely wholly in favor of free speech, just like the ADL was back in the day when they let the Ku Klux Klan march.
- BOBono
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They, they... Like, look.
- BOBono
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- 1:08:06 – 1:39:58
Humor as an antidote to extremism: Daryl Davis, ridicule, and comedians reading the room
- BOBono
Well, humor helps.
- JRJoe Rogan
Humor helps.
- BOBono
Like, uh, hu- hu- humor helps. One thing we know about the Ku Klux (laughs) Klan is, if you mention the silly costumes-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- BOBono
... they, they don't like that. They... You know, it, it's like they want you to be afraid or they want you to be nervous.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yes.
- BOBono
But it's like, dude, look at the stage gear.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're a ghost.
- BOBono
(laughs) It's like, it's like, come on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you know who Daryl Davis is?
- BOBono
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Daryl Davis is a musician who, um... He's... Was a traveling blues musician and, uh, did some shows where, afterwards, he met some people that told him that they were in the Ku Klux Klan. And he was like, "Are you kidding?" And they show... The guy shows him his fucking Grand Wizard iden- ID card or whatever the hell it is.
- BOBono
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He becomes friends with this guy.
- BOBono
"Here's my card."
- JRJoe Rogan
Daryl's Black.
- BOBono
(laughs) Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Daryl's a Black man. And becomes friends with this guy, goes to his house, meets his family. The guy throws the robe away, gives up his membership in the KKK. Renounces his membership and gives Daryl the robes, says, "I want you to have this." Daryl has done that personally. The last time I talked to him was a few years back. He'd done this personally to over 200 people, just by being an amazing human being, by being a brilliant artist-
- BOBono
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and, and hanging out with them. Just being kind and talk... And as an example of just a great human. And they were like, "I guess I'm wrong. I guess I'm wrong. This idea that Black people are inferior and the white man is a superior race, that can't be true because I love this guy."
- BOBono
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And so, they would just quit.
- BOBono
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They'd quit. And he has this tact.
- BOBono
It's not the smartest theory.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a terrible theory. But if you're in a place with only terrible theories and that's what you grow up, there's Daryl.
- BOBono
Uh.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they give him all his robes.
- BOBono
(laughs) I, I...
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
Episode duration: 2:59:50
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