Joe Rogan Experience #2330 - Bono

Bono 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 (instrumental music plays) Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Uh, I fucking loved your film. It was really great.

Bono 0:15 You saw it?

Joe Rogan 0:16 Watched it last night, yeah.

Bono 0:17 Oh.

Joe Rogan 0:17 It was cool too, because I always feel special when I gotta p- enter in the password 'cause I know that nobody else has seen it yet, you know? I gotta e- enter in the email and the password, and I watched it, and I screen mirrored it on the TV. It was great, man. And it's, it was so, uh, like, almost like a fever dream. It was wild, like the way you set it up, all black and white.

Bono 0:35 Yeah. If you get past the first three minutes... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:38 Yes.

Bono 0:38 ... it is a ... I could... I, I ... Even my own mates were like, "Oh, don't do that."

Joe Rogan 0:41 (laughs)

Bono 0:42 (laughs) It's like, wow. And, and it is like a fever dream.

Joe Rogan 0:45 Yes.

Bono 0:45 That opening. But that really happened to me, so you know.

Joe Rogan 0:47 Well it was great, man. It's great. And it's also like, I love the way you did it, like you played the beginning of some songs, and you talked about the origin of the songs. The thing that I have a hard time believing, though, is that you weren't a good singer when you were young.

Bono 1:00 (clicks tongue) Well, you know punk rock, you're a bit of a shouter. You know, that's really what you do, you just get up there and shout. You, sh- I'm shouting at God, I'm shouting at everyone. Right? I'm shouting at the band. That scene in the, in w- when we're doing I Will Follow-

Joe Rogan 1:14 Yeah.

Bono 1:14 ... that's really true. So I'm, I'm there and we're improvising this song that becomes I Will Follow If You Walk Away, Walk Away, Walk A- I mean, it's like this while we're ... We're trying to get s- just do something original, and we're really ripping (laughs) off ... The irony is we're really ripping off Public Image Limited, this... Johnny Rotten became John Lydon again for this band called Public Image Limited back in the late '70s. And, and I'm singing about, you know, it's a suicide note really, and I'm singing about this c- and they're saying, like, "What's it about?" And I said, "I think it's this, it's this guy is gonna follow somebody into the grave, you know? They're gonna ... It's, I think it's about a, it's a, it's a s- it's a child following their mother, missing them so much that he'll follow them into the grave."

Joe Rogan 2:03 Whoa.

Bono 2:03 And then, we realized that our, our, our rehearsal room, the little yellow house, is beside the cemetery where my mother is buried.

Joe Rogan 2:14 Whoa.

Bono 2:14 And I've never visited her once, or talked about her once. And we're, we'd been rehearsing there for months. And it's funny, you know, you can deny somebody in conversation, you can deny somebody to yourself, but in the songs, all that shit comes out.

Joe Rogan 2:31 Wow. Wow.

Bono 2:32 So, yeah. But thank you for watching it. That's, that's, um ... Thank you.

Joe Rogan 2:35 I loved it. (clears throat) It w- it was such an interesting w- way you put it all together. I've never seen anybody do that like that. Like, you did like, it- it, it's like a documentation of your career, but in this like, very unique way with like, talking about things and then explaining these moments, and then the music plays, and it's, and it's all black-and-white. It was really cool.

Bono 2:58 Yeah. There's a ... (clears throat) There's a sort of ... Black-and-white lends it a kinda clarity. I did this series of shows in the, the Beacon, uh, Theatre in New York. And, and it was going so well, we thought we should record it. I will tell you, the night before we opened our show in New York, my missus, Ali, (laughs) said, "I don't think you should do this."

Joe Rogan 3:25 (laughs)

Bono 3:25 "Just please, please do not do this to yourself in front of, you know, a New York crowd. Cancel it now, do what most people do on a book tour, get somebody to (laughs) interview them, and just, they'll come anyway, everyone will be happy." And I don't know, I just went, for once, I'm, I didn't take her sage advice and I, I did it. And the difference was, with an audience, it was funny. And she was like, "Oh, that's the bit I didn't get in the rehearsals. It's funny."

Joe Rogan 3:56 Oh. So what was she thinking? It was self-indulgent?

Bono 3:58 It's just ... Uh, that it was dull, self-indulgent, here you are. I mean, all these things, they're a version of ... L- (laughs) here's another great thing about me. No.

Joe Rogan 4:07 (laughs)

Bono 4:07 I, I mean, it is a ... I was calling it a memoir.

Joe Rogan 4:10 (clears throat) Right. Uh-huh.

Bono 4:11 Me- me book what I wrote meself, it's the memoir. And it i- ... Look, there's something narcissistic and ... But it's, it's your material, you know? That's what you get. Your k- y- you know, your ... It's not just your body, your psychology is the canvas, and you know, I grew up John Lennon, you know ... The Beatles were everything for me. And you know, John Lennon made a sort of performance art out of his wedding to Yoko, and he did a bed-in for peace, and he was ready to look ridiculous for peace. And you know, I do ridiculous (laughs) quite well, (laughs) I'm told. So that was my definition, you know, of, of art really-

Joe Rogan 4:49 Yeah.

Bono 4:50 ... was to just, just go out there. But the thing that being in U2, it was just giving me everything, (clicks tongue) took away, if it took away anything, was, you know, people don't come along to our shows for a belly laugh. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 5:07 Right, right.

Bono 5:07 So as a comedian, you understand that, you know?

Joe Rogan 5:11 Yeah.

Bono 5:11 It's, it's like I ... You know, I had wrote this (clears throat) line, it came outta nowhere, I, I haven't put it in a song yet, I don't think, but you know. I think it's, um, laughter is the evidence of freedom. And I don't ta- I don't trust people to talk about freedom now, I want people to be free. If you are, if you talk ... Be, be it then. Be it.

Joe Rogan 5:32 Yeah.

Bono 5:32 And, and so I wanted to be that on stage. I wanted to be loose, I wanted to be myself, I wanted to own up to the ridiculousness of my life, as I've just explained, the madness of my (laughs) family, but turns out it's ... everyone's family is a little opera. And it is a bit of a soap opera, but it's also, also a, a real opera. These are big feelings, you know?... you're going after your da, like you're like a young, what, you know, elk is a romantic word for it, (laughs) but it's, you know, you're just taking him on.

Joe Rogan 6:08 Yeah.

Bono 6:08 And this poor man is just... He's lost his, his wife. He's trying to bring up two kids. I'm just a- an obnoxious kind of thing who some- somehow psychologically blames him for the death of my mother, because as Jim Sheridan says to me, (imitates Jim Sheridan) "It doesn't have to be actually true to be psychologically true."

Joe Rogan 6:32 (laughs)

Bono 6:34 (laughs) And that kids feel-

Joe Rogan 6:36 Yeah.

Bono 6:36 ... all these feelings, you know, and they don't have to be logical. And, and I went after my da, and I... By playing him every night in, in the Beacon Theatre and around the world, I actually learned to, to love him. Uh, I learned to like him, actually. I always loved him, but I learned to like him. That was... He made me laugh more. So I got humor.

Joe Rogan 7:02 Mm-hmm.

Bono 7:02 Humor was the gift from that show, and...

Joe Rogan 7:05 And the humor was evident with the audience there.

Bono 7:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:09 Yeah.

Bono 7:09 But not evident- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:11 In rehearsals.

Bono 7:11 ... when my missus came, which is why she wanted to pull the plug.

Joe Rogan 7:14 (laughs) Well, rehearsals are hard. It's also hard when someone is too close to you.

Bono 7:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:19 They're there with you every day. Like, uh, this is, uh, true with comedy as well. Like, uh, if someone sees your act too many times, like if someone's traveling with you, like if my wife went to see my shows all the time, there's parts of it she'd be like, "Oh, don't do that. Oh, don't do this. Oh," like, "That's not..."

Bono 7:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:38 Like, you get too close to it.

Bono 7:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:39 Like she's too close to you. But to see it with fresh eyes, like to see it in front of that audience, the joy that they have when the music starts playing, when some of the songs that they love, it's amazing. Like you could feel it in the show. It's like the-

Bono 7:54 Well, I'm glad I couldn't cross-

Joe Rogan 7:55 ... the pure joy, when they get so... 'Cause the people that came to see it were hardcore fans.

Bono 8:01 Well, the one- what happened was Andrew Dominik, Australian director, and he did some of the sh- the, the, the shots without any audience, just he cleared them out on a day off. And then some of them came in, which were hardcore fans, as you say, and that was, in a way, that was, that was, that was the most terrifying, um, because I, as a performer, I'm drawn to spontaneous acts. That's what... When we started out as a band, I was attracted to performers who I thought might leave the stage-

Joe Rogan 8:42 Right.

Bono 8:42 ... and follow me home, mug me, or- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:45 (laughs)

Bono 8:45 ... you know, you know, tell my fortune, or, you know-

Joe Rogan 8:48 Yeah.

Bono 8:48 ... uh, whatever.

Joe Rogan 8:49 Wild people.

Bono 8:50 W- well, just, yeah. I mean, and I'm still attra- Iggy Pop-

Joe Rogan 8:54 Yeah.

Bono 8:54 ... when I was growing up was the, you know... Patti Smith. I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 8:57 Yeah.

Bono 8:57 Patti Smith used to enter the stage elbowing her way through the crowd. Myself and Larry Mullen, drummer in U2, we, we left stage one night in the, like, when we were, like, 21, 20 years old, elbowing our way through, through the crowd to get out, just got into a taxi in London, fucked off. (laughs) And, and we felt a liberation. You know, breaking the fourth wall has been everything for our bands, trying to smash it by surfing it, um, you know, by, by jumping into the crowd. I had the, um, preposterous moment of going into a crowd in the, in Los Angeles. I forget, the Forum or somewhere like that, (clears throat) with a white flag, right, the nonviolent white flag, the same flag that I'm still on about, the flag of Surrender, right, in that show. (laughs) But back then I'm 23 or whatever, and I'm going into the crowd, and I see people who are, you know, pulling at me and all this. The next thing, and I'm th- I'm throwing a punch, somebody in our own, our, in our own (laughs) audience. That's how much nonviolence meant to me.

Joe Rogan 10:12 (laughs)

Bono 10:12 You know, you know, (laughs) but I, uh, I'm a- I'm attracted to feral performers, I suppose is a word for it.

Joe Rogan 10:18 Yeah.

Bono 10:18 It's just- it's, it's... You're in it, and you're not-

Joe Rogan 10:22 It's not contrived.

Bono 10:22 ... fully in control of it.

Joe Rogan 10:24 Right.

Bono 10:26 And (clears throat) Mark Rylance is a great one. Daniel Day-Lewis walked offstage one night, saw a ghost of his father, rumor had it when he was playing Hamlet, but yeah. So having the crowd in who knew what was gonna happen, that unnerves me a bit because I c- how do I surprise them? Turns out by making... I w- I b- I became a sit-down comic. Does that make-

Joe Rogan 10:52 Yeah.

Bono 10:52 If you're a stand-up, for a minute, a minute I was a sit-down c- comedian.

Joe Rogan 10:58 Well, what you're doing and what, what, I think what you're saying that you're attracted to is something that's not contrived, something that's pure. It could be messy. It could be wi- it could be, you know, Patti Smith elbowing people-

Bono 11:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:10 ... or you running through the crowds.

Bono 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:12 There's... It's, it's real. And there's so much in this world that's not real. There's so much that's manufactured. There's so much that's produced and run through a focus group. And there's so, there's so much that doesn't resonate. Like you don't feel it as a piece of art. You don't feel it as, like, a real person pouring out their emotions and their soul. But great music, you feel. It, it gets into you. It gets into your cells, you know? It's a-

Bono 11:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:40 And no one can f- figure out wh- how it works, or why it works, or why this w- does and this doesn't. And why does Johnny Cash have such a fucking cool voice? Like it's, what is it? What, what is it? Like but-

Bono 11:52 I, I-

Joe Rogan 11:52 ... there's something about-

Bono 11:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:54 ... real that's just... It's like a vitamin. It's like going out in the sun when it's been raining, like, "Ah." Like you, you, you soak it in.

Bono 12:02 Yeah. It is, you know-I mean, you can ... There's pretentious ways of describing it, and people say it's we, we first sang to each other before we spoke, you know, like, like bird song. I don't know who said that. It's probably on drugs. But (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:18 (laughs)

Bono 12:18 ... but could have been a scientist. And, um, uh, anthropology might suggest we certainly ... that goat song, you go back to Greek tragedy, you had a drum and a voice. So it's very primal.

Joe Rogan 12:32 Yeah.

Bono 12:33 And, and there is ... It is the language of the spirit. It, we, we ... It, it is somehow there is worship involved, whether it's God, nature, money, a extraordinary woman has just walked across the street. But it seems to be that music is where we are creatures of, uh, awe-

Joe Rogan 13:02 Yes.

Bono 13:02 ... and, and wonder. And, and, and, you know, you mentioned Johnny Cash. I, I had, I had the blessing in my life of, of getting to know him, and as a believer, I don't know if you know, I- I'm a believer, I'm just not a very good one, (laughs) but he ... There was no- not a pious bone in his body, and, and I learnt th- that by the company he would choose. He didn't like ... He, he got nervous around people who were too self-righteous, and he had this huge spirit in him, you know, prayerful spirit. Myself and Adam Clayton were, were, um, driving through America, I think, around the time of The Joshua Tree, and I'd met Johnny a couple of years ... But he's, you know, I found out where he, where he lived. He had a zoo in Nashville. He had a house in Nashville, and we go into ... To, to meet June, uh, his missus, and, and Johnny, and, and he shows us this table. It's filled with plates of every ... Like, I'm like, "Wow, we're coming. We're just the two of us." She said, she said, "No, honey, that's my cookbook. I'm just doing a photo shoot for my cookbook. We're in here, you know. We're having a ..." So we go into their kitchen, and we sat there, myself and Adam, and, uh, and, uh, Johnny goes, "Sh- shall, shall we pray?" And, uh, Adam's wasn't a praying type at that, at that time, but he was like, "Well, it's Johnny Cash."

Joe Rogan 14:40 (laughs)

Bono 14:40 So, you know-

Joe Rogan 14:41 You have to pray.

Bono 14:42 ... we, we all held hands and whatever, and Johnny Cash made this beautiful, poetic blessing, and I, I just thought like, "Wow, of course, he's touched," and then he just turned to Adam and just goes, "Sure miss the drugs, though."

Joe Rogan 14:58 (laughs)

Bono 14:58 And Adam just f- fell in love with him, you know?

Joe Rogan 15:02 Yeah.

Bono 15:02 Because he couldn't be pious.

Joe Rogan 15:03 Right.

Bono 15:04 He just ... He had to be himself.

Joe Rogan 15:07 Yeah.

Bono 15:07 Um, years later, if it's ... Years later, and we really-

Joe Rogan 15:12 Look at that.

Bono 15:13 Oh, wow, there you go. Oh, that's so ... Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 15:17 There it is.

Bono 15:18 That's Adam there, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:19 Yeah.

Bono 15:20 Uh, he looks like he might've had a few tequilas, and, um, I don't know, but oh, wow, and I'm giving it the arty, poetic face.

Joe Rogan 15:28 (laughs)

Bono 15:29 I am a poet like you are. And, um, uh, I call, called ... I heard, I heard he was, um ... I heard he was in trouble. He was, he was very ill, years later than this, and I called, uh, I called up, and, and June answered the phone. Excuse the poor Texas accent, all you Texans out there, but she was like ... Or Nashville, in her case. She was like, "Oh, Bono. Wow, thank you for calling. It's so good to hear from you. How's Dublin? How's Allie? How's the Burlington?" This is a hotel, right? (laughs) And I was like, "Great," and we're talking, you know, phrases with, with, uh, with June. She said, "What's going on with this?" And I'm going, "What's going on?" And I said, "Look," eventually, I said, "Look, June, I'm just, I'm just calling because I heard John wasn't well, and I just, I just want you to ... Wanted him to know, and that we're thinking about him." She said, "Oh, honey, we're in bed. He's right beside me." (laughs) And he hands me the phone, or she hands him the phone. He goes, "S- sorry about that." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:43 (laughs)

Bono 16:44 And, uh, "I'm, I'm fine," and, uh, and bless her, um, actually, June passed away first, and, and Johnny called Rick Rubin, and those American Recordings were, were a result of a conversation he had with Rick Rubin where he said, "Please, will you work with me? Because if you don't, I will die."

Joe Rogan 17:09 Wow.

Bono 17:09 And that's what you ... If you hear those American Recordings, um, amazing version of Nine Inch Nails, um-

Joe Rogan 17:17 Hurt.

Bono 17:17 Hurt.

Joe Rogan 17:18 Yeah.

Bono 17:18 He did a version of One, also Depeche Mode's Personal Jesus. I mean, it's just-

Joe Rogan 17:23 Yeah.

Bono 17:23 What a voice.

Joe Rogan 17:24 Yeah.

Bono 17:25 Are you a fan of, of, of Johnny Cash?

Joe Rogan 17:28 Huge.

Bono 17:28 What's, what's your-

Joe Rogan 17:29 I used to have a dog named Johnny Cash.

Bono 17:32 Does the dog bite?

Joe Rogan 17:33 No, he's ...

Bono 17:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:34 Not anymore. He's dead. He was ... He didn't bite when he was alive. He was a nice dog. It's just I've ... I had a habit of naming my dogs after famous singers.

Bono 17:43 Well, we've a dog called Lemmy.

Joe Rogan 17:46 Oh, wow.

Bono 17:46 Uh, named after Lemmy from Motorhead.

Joe Rogan 17:48 Oh, that's awesome.

Bono 17:49 Yeah, it's a girl though-

Joe Rogan 17:50 Yeah.

Bono 17:50 ... I think she resents it.

Joe Rogan 17:53 (laughs) Yeah, I had a dog named Frank Sinatra and, uh-

Bono 17:56 Oh.

Joe Rogan 17:56 Marshall is named after Eminem.

Bono 17:58 Oh, man. Well, they're two incredible people, and don't get me started on, on Frank Sinatra 'cause, um ... How long is this, by the way? The-

Joe Rogan 18:07 As long as we wanna go.

Bono 18:08 Well, no, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 18:10 Why?

Bono 18:11 Well, just, uh, Frank Sinatra ... Now he- it's, it's two questions. (laughs) One of them should be Frank Sinatra, because I- I'd just- I can go on and on. I, I learned so much from him, and I got to know him, and as bizarre as that sounds, um ... He's such a name-dropper, Frank. Um, no. But, uh, I did. And probably, if you're interested in singing, I could tell you one miracle that I learned from Frank Sinatra, which is a version of, of My Way. And the original version, you know, it's a boast. And years later, he sang it, and I have a copy of it. It's, um ... And Pavarotti stars in the film. As you know, I- I'm- I'm-

Joe Rogan 18:57 Yeah.

Bono 18:58 ... I- I play him for, for a moment. But it's a version of My Way with ... I mean, Pavarotti's the greatest singer on earth, but shouldn't sing in English. << Friends, I do it now >> You don't want-

Joe Rogan 19:11 Yeah.

Bono 19:11 You don't want that. And so I have a version of it with- without the greatest singer in the history of the world, Pavarotti, on it. It's just Frank singing, 20 years after he'd sung My Way as a boast. Same key, same text, same arrangement, and now it's an apology.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Wow.

Bono 19:34 And that's a, that's the thing about singing, and Johnny Cash had that. And, you know, I- I- I wish, I aspire to the place when my voice, to- to- to try and answer your first question, when I become a singer that can do that.

Joe Rogan 19:51 Sinatra, most people don't realize, had a completely different voice when he was younger.

Bono 19:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:57 His voice when he was younger was very high-pitched-

Bono 20:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:00 ... and beautiful. It had so much-

Bono 20:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:02 ... flexibility to it, and so much tone. And then probably all the cigarettes and Jack Daniels-

Bono 20:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:09 ... over the years sort of hardened his voice.

Bono 20:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:11 And then-

Bono 20:12 Skinny kid. He, he used to, he used to s- swim underwater to get his, to get his lung expanded, so he could get those bigger, bigger, bigger notes.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Really?

Bono 20:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:23 Yeah, we have his mug shot out there. He got arrested when he was, like, 125 pounds.

Bono 20:28 Wow.

Joe Rogan 20:28 Yeah. He got arrested for, um ... What was the term? De- seduction? I think it was seduction. I think he seduced a married woman. Yeah.

Bono 20:38 Oh, my lord.

Joe Rogan 20:39 Yeah. There he is.

Bono 20:40 Oh, look at that. Well, he said, "I'm the only ..." He said, "You're the only ..." I don't know if he said "cat". He said- I don't ... Certainly he didn't say "dude". He said, "You're the only something with a- who, who wears an earring that I'm ever gonna like."

Joe Rogan 20:55 (laughs)

Bono 20:56 You're the only cat with an earring that I'm never gonna ... L- I- I- and, and I did. I had a ... If we're gonna talk about singers, you have to talk about Sinatra. I had extraordinary times with him. Um, he used to send us, send me gifts every year. I have a gold and sapphire Cartier watch he sent me.

Joe Rogan 21:16 Oh, wow.

Bono 21:16 With, with Francis Albert on the ... You know, got, um ... Just every year, he would send stuff, and ... 'Cause we did a, a duet together on his first duets album, I've Got You, Got You Under My Skin. Um, although, our ... We had a, our management received ... I hope this is not ... I'm not being ... I'm in awe of Japan, so don't ... Please don't take this as a, as a, as a, as a, as a-

Joe Rogan 21:44 (laughs)

Bono 21:44 ... cruel joke, but we did get a- from- a, a, a, a, a, um ... It was a te- it was a fax back then from Nippon EMI saying, "We hear that Bono has done a duet with a Mr. Frank Sin-alta called I've Got You Under My Chicken." And- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:02 (laughs)

Bono 22:02 That's just the great-

Joe Rogan 22:04 Lost in translation?

Bono 22:04 The great surrealist anthem of all time. Um, but yeah, for me, that was a, an unusual relationship. And I ... If I ask myself why I would go after these great singers that perhaps people of my own generation had moved on from, but I hadn't, there is a part of me that wanted the blessing of an- of the older generation, and probably the male. I didn't really ... By now, with a bit of age, I realized I didn't have the sense-

Joe Rogan 22:45 (laughs)

Bono 22:45 ... to go after the same with women, but I was looking for my father in them, you know. Whether it was Willie Nelson, you know, whether, you know, uh, Bob Dylan, Frank Sinatra, Pavarotti, all these people. I mean, I, I would, they would ... I would ... I kind of ... I became their students, really.

Joe Rogan 23:05 Mm-hmm.

Bono 23:06 And the band would be like, "Yeah?" And, and I'm going, "Yeah." And there's so much-

Joe Rogan 23:13 Wow.

Bono 23:13 ... for me to learn from these people, so much for all of us to learn. These are extraordinary for a reason. Sinatra had, you know, an incredible sense of humor, and, and great timing. He ... What I learned from him was he- he read the- the- the text of the song like an actor. So he would learn it as an actor would learn a part. Then he would ... On the piano, he'd kind of roughly with his, you know, pianist, he'd figure out where, where to be in the bar and all of that. And then when he went into the orchestra to meet them, you know, Nelson Riddle or whatever, you actually hear him. You hear Frank Sinatra hearing the song in its full arrangement for the first time as he's singing it.

Joe Rogan 24:07 Wow.

Bono 24:08 And that's- it's fresh paint. You know, it's like-... any painter will tell you. That's just the, it's- it's like Francis Bacon's, just that first stroke or first touch football, the great players where the ball lands at their feet, they don't stop it and pass it, they, they, they pass it as they stop it. It's, it's, it's really a very high level of, of artistry, and, and he had that. I learnt that from him, and I learned lots of o- other things. I also tried to drink with him, um, on a few occasions-

Joe Rogan 24:42 (laughs)

Bono 24:43 ... which did not work out well, uh, for me.

Joe Rogan 24:46 Was it surreal when you were a young man and you were just starting to achieve success to encounter these people that were essentially heroes, and be embraced by them and hang around them? You know, a lot of people feel imposter syndrome, like they feel just... It's bizarre to be around these legendary human beings. Like, they're right there. Like, I, I, I still kinda get weirded out by it. Even when I met you today, I'm like, "Oh, that's Bono." Like it's still weird, you know? It's still weird to meet people that are, like, hugely famous.

Bono 25:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:20 And when you were a young man, when, when U2 was just blowing up, was it strange, the, the transition... Like to accept the fact, like, "This is where we are. We belong here"?

Bono 25:29 Bu- Well, you, you, you got it right the first time. There is a part of you that doesn't think you belong here.

Joe Rogan 25:36 Right.

Bono 25:38 And then when you're younger, you, you, you're not admitting that to yourself. And I have a, I've, I've a few annoying (laughs) more than a few annoying aspects depending on who you, you're talking to. But if I have an annoying gene, um, part of it is, when I'm at my most vulnerable, I'm a- I give it the most swagger.

Joe Rogan 26:06 Ah.

Bono 26:07 So we were playing the Super Bowl. We were walked on just after 9/11, big emotional moment, and we're... We got eight minutes, whatever, to switch over, and I've got my ears in 'cause the only way I'm in touch with what's go- what's, what's going on, and we're walking through the crowd. We've got the crowd on the, on the pitch, I think one of the first times that was ever done. And, and somebody goes, "Yay," and they boom, and I can feel my ear come out. And that will mean I'm off air. And if you look at the film, as I've had to, of us walking (laughs) up to get on stage, I am giving it so much chin. You just go, "Who is that obnoxious Irish fucking..."

Joe Rogan 27:01 (laughs)

Bono 27:01 "What, where does he get that attitude?"

Joe Rogan 27:04 Here it is right here.

Bono 27:05 Oh, there it is. Uh, I think I'm singing there, so it's... If you just go back (laughs) a little bit, you'll get the real, uh, that's the chin. No, no, just before there, but-

Joe Rogan 27:16 (laughs)

Bono 27:16 ... but, uh, but look, not a care in the world. And that's, I mean, bullshit is a word for it.

Joe Rogan 27:25 Yeah.

Bono 27:25 Swagger is another word for it. But-

Joe Rogan 27:28 It's a shield.

Bono 27:28 ... it's a shield.

Joe Rogan 27:30 Yeah.

Bono 27:30 And as I get older, I... You know, part of the film was taking off my armor and just dropping the sword, dropping the shield, taking it off. And now, in that moment, you wake up, it's a bit like the dream where you're naked in front of the whole school (laughs) and, and it's really cold. And, and, and then you realize, yeah, your life, as you are realizing yourself now, "Oh, how did this happen to me?" And, "And how did I get to meet these extraordinary people?" And so it's... That's why I wrote the book, Surrender. That's why I did it. But 'cause it was just starting to realize. When I was younger, I was like, "Yeah, you know." Uh, Bob Dylan once asked us, I was 24, and he says, uh... He was recording there. I was gonna interview him, and he said, "Do you wanna go on stage or whatever and do a song?" And I said, "Well..." He said, "Leopard Skin Pillbox Hat's an amazing song." I said, "Oh, if the lyrics allowed to," I... And I'd been learning to improvise as a singer, and, um, and I, uh, I went out on stage. And he said, "Do you know Blowing in the Wind?" (laughs) I said, "I probably, uh, I probably got that one down," but I didn't.

Joe Rogan 28:57 Oh.

Bono 28:57 And I just walked out on stage, and I could see it was a home crowd, Ireland people. "Oh wow, this... One of ours is up there with Bob Dylan. Wow. Oh, it's Bono. Wow, okay." "And he's gonna sing... Oh my God, he can't sing. Oh, oh, he's changed the melody. Oh, he's changed the words."

Joe Rogan 29:16 (laughs)

Bono 29:16 And you could just see him go down in flames. And afterwards, I see Bob and I said, "Look, I'm sorry about that. I've just... It's just the way we've been working at the moment is just kinda improvising stuff." And he was like, "It's okay. You know, everything... I, I make 'em up all the time," and he was generous about it. "Nothing's fixed in time." Something like that.

Joe Rogan 29:39 That's a great Bob Dylan impression.

Bono 29:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:41 One of my favorite moments in the film was when your bandmates were concerned that Pavarotti was gonna show up with a camera crew.

Bono 29:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:49 And he showed up with a camera crew. (laughs)

Bono 29:52 He did. He did. One of the-

Joe Rogan 29:53 And it was just funny. It was like a, it was a really well-timed moment, like, and when you said it on stage, it was so well-timed because it's like here you're honoring this man who's like this incredible, fantastic singer, but your bandmates, they've got a good instinct like, "This is gonna be a big press op as well, like, this is part of the reason why he wants to do this." And then that's not gonna be fun 'cause it's gonna be weird, and then, boom.

Bono 30:17 Yeah, one of the great, one of the great arm wrestlers, um, emotional arm wrestlers of all time. He, he, it's interesting that there was a generosity there which, whi- which, which he wanted opera, because opera was kind of the punk of its time. Classical musicians looked down on opera, you know?

Joe Rogan 30:40 Really?

Bono 30:40 These are stories from the street. They're, they're too accessible, you know?

Joe Rogan 30:44 Really?

Bono 30:44 And... Oh, yeah, yeah, opera-

Joe Rogan 30:46 Oh, that's crazy. I would have never imagined that.

Bono 30:47 Opera was much rougher, and his... and he instinctively knew, and he was constantly trying to make relationships that would cross the divide and make sort of opera popular. And so, to the point where, yeah, he did. He used to call our house and say... y- y- you know, at first it was with me, but then when... He would haunt our housekeeper, Theresa, and say, like, "Is God at home?"

Joe Rogan 31:18 (laughs)

Bono 31:18 "Well, tell God to... he is late on the song." Or, you know, he'd do this kind of carry on. And, and I... again, this, these figures in, in my life. I knew that I was in... you know, on sacred ground when I was near him.

Joe Rogan 31:36 Right.

Bono 31:36 I knew this. But the band, they didn't have the... (laughs) they didn't have the relationship with opera. They... well, actually, Edge's dad was into opera, but my dad... it was, it was... I u- I was using Luciano Pavarotti to get to my dad.

Joe Rogan 31:53 Yeah.

Bono 31:53 That was the real thing. And so, as you see in the film, I play my father just by turning my head.

Joe Rogan 32:01 Yeah.

Bono 32:02 And I become him. And, and, and I was trying to impress him. I'd be in Finnegan's Pub, where we'd be sitting not speaking to each other, and, and, and I try something and I go, um, "What do you think about, uh, Luciano Pavarotti calling the house?" And he'd go, "Did he get a wrong number?"

Joe Rogan 32:23 (laughs)

Bono 32:23 You know, it'd be all that. And, and so, yeah, there was an emotional through line because our house was an opera. Unfortunately, my dad was... going on in his life was operatic. Um, but it's also funny.

Joe Rogan 32:42 Yeah. Yeah, and it's also this... you are both celebrating the brilliance of this incredible singer, and also you're, you're taking the piss out of this whole cult of celebrity thing that comes along with it.

Bono 32:57 Yeah. And Princess Diana.

Joe Rogan 32:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Bono 32:59 The best line-

Joe Rogan 33:00 That thing with your dad and Princess Diana was hilarious? (laughs)

Bono 33:03 So... because Edge's, Edge's dad is, is, uh... Edge's mother and father are from Wales. So to... you know. So we're with Pavarotti in M- Modena, I think it was, and he... s- s- so the Princess of Wales is meeting the great tenor, and he is offered to meet, you know, anyone who wants... you know, Edge's family, because they're from Wales, to meet the Princess of Wales. And he says to me, "Look, do, do, does your dad want to go?" And I of course know the reason. I know the answer and the reason for the answer. But he says, "Well, just ask him." So I ask him. I just go, "Dad, listen, you wouldn't want to, uh, go meet Lady Di, you know, the princess?" "What? What? Uh, why would I want to meet a member of the British royal family? That's like asking me do I want to meet the winner of the lotto." And I'm like, "Okay, got it, got it, got it." And then later, she comes into our dressing room and melts him-

Joe Rogan 34:15 (laughs)

Bono 34:15 ... just by reaching her hand out, "How do you do?" And he's like, "Oh, very well, thank you." Um, and as I say, 800 years of oppression gone in a second.

Joe Rogan 34:32 (laughs)

Bono 34:32 And if you wonder about, um, the reasoning for having a royal family, and a lot of Irish people do, there, I'd... I would say that's the reason right there.

Joe Rogan 34:43 The weight of it. The weight of it overcame him.

Bono 34:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Yeah. It's a very bizarre relationship though, you know? Like, I'm one-quarter Irish and I know-

Bono 34:51 Oh, boy.

Joe Rogan 34:52 ... the relationship between Ireland and United Kingdom and England, and it's like... it's complicated.

Bono 34:59 Well, were you... were you... I've read that you got into martial arts because you felt picked on at some point.

Joe Rogan 35:08 Yeah.

Bono 35:08 Is that true?

Joe Rogan 35:09 Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Bono 35:11 So you don't like bullies?

Joe Rogan 35:12 No. No. No, I don't like that at all. It's the weakest inclination of the human spirit, you know, to pick on the weak. It's terrible. It's, uh-

Bono 35:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:25 ... it's a terrible instinct that humans have from... probably from the time where you had to ostracize weak people because you lived in a tribe of people barely surviving and you couldn't tolerate any weak links in the chain. I mean, that's essentially probably where it came from. It probably came out of a survival instinct-

Bono 35:40 A Darwinian thing.

Joe Rogan 35:41 ... yes, where everyone was barbarians and you had to force people to be the hardest version possible, because otherwise the genes wouldn't survive.

Bono 35:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:50 And then-

Bono 35:50 It is... the survival of the fittest, it's... yeah, which is the world we live in.

Joe Rogan 35:55 Yeah.

Bono 35:56 I mean, this is one of the things that attracts me to Christianity, is the idea of the first will be last and the last will be first. It's so radical.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Mm-hmm.

Bono 36:05 And it's literally the opposite of the survival of the fittest.

Joe Rogan 36:08 Right.

Bono 36:09 But America... why I love America is, is it has... I mean, the British Empire bullied it.... and it stood up. I was... We were coming here, uh, I was asking someone in the car about th- the Declaration of, of Independence and, you know, how many Irish signatures there were or... It wasn't that many, I can't remember what there were. But they were all committing treason, man.

Narrator 36:35 Mm-hmm.

Bono 36:35 They were putting their lives... They were pledging their lives, their fortune, and their sacred honor. So America, the very essence of America is this idea of sticking it to the bully.

Narrator 36:50 Yeah.

Bono 36:51 And, and I know America can be a bully. We all g- we have our moments and all, uh, and all that. But it's the essence of who you are, and, and it happened again with the, the geezer with the tash, um-

Narrator 37:04 (laughs)

Bono 37:04 (laughs)

Narrator 37:05 The geezer with the tash, that's a great way of-

Bono 37:07 You know, the-

Narrator 37:07 ... calling Hitler.

Bono 37:08 You know, but-

Narrator 37:09 Yeah.

Bono 37:09 ... y- you know, you weren't, you weren't having it.

Narrator 37:11 Right.

Bono 37:12 And, and I... You know, and I, I, as a m- as a, as an activist for w- which we can talk about later, but the... You know, I remember going to, and it's only a few hours from here, but it was in, um, Lincoln, Nebraska. And, um, Warren Buffet came to one of our... It's called Heart of America Tour. We were raising awareness on this pandemic, this AIDS pandemic that was... Had killed just, you know, 30 million people at this point. And why might America be interested? And I'm very Irish and very given a lot of that. And afterwards, I asked the Sage of Omaha for, for any advice. And, and he gives me two pieces of advice. But the... Proba- well, the one was, "Don't ask people to do something s- simple, th- 'cause they won't trust you." He said, "Ask them to do something complicated." He said-

Narrator 38:10 Mm. What do you mean by that?

Bono 38:11 Well, uh, uh, he... I said, he said, "What are you asking people to do here?" And I said-

Narrator 38:14 (clears throat)

Bono 38:14 ... "Well, they're... I'm asking them to... (stutters) We're asking them," uh, The ONE Campaign, "We're, we're asking them to send a, a, a, you know, a note to their local congressperson." He said, "No, no, no, no, don't, don't. No, don't do that. Too simple. Make them do something more difficult and they'll trust you. Maybe 10 postcards. It's harder to do."

Narrator 38:36 Ah.

Bono 38:36 And I was like, "Okay. And anything else?" And then he said something which really changed my life and changed my conversation with this country of yours. He said, "Don't appeal to a conscience of America. D- Don't do that. Appeal to the greatness of America-"

Narrator 38:59 Ooh.

Bono 38:59 "... and you'll get the job done. Americans-"

Narrator 39:02 Hmm.

Bono 39:02 "... wanna be great."

Narrator 39:03 That is true.

Bono 39:04 I think it is true. And 'cause Ireland, we work with guilt. You know, you can (laughs) guilt-

Narrator 39:10 Right, right.

Bono 39:10 ... people. There's a lot of countries, you can work them just, you know-

Narrator 39:13 Yeah.

Bono 39:13 But Americans, it's not. Give them the chance to be the cavalry.

Narrator 39:18 Yeah.

Bono 39:18 And they'll... I mean, Omaha Beach, the heroism of Omaha Beach, the lives poured out, you know, and to s- to save Europe from, from tyranny. And that's who America is. And, you know, I gave you The Joshua Tree because I... You know, uh, it's not just as an Irishman, but probably more because I, as an Irishman, fell under the spell of America. Uh, even as kids, you know, coming here, um, a lot of the cooler bands would just play the coasts, you know, the cooler UK bands or European bands. But I wanted, I wanted to be all over America. I mean, we played... We opened for a wet t-shirt (laughs) competition in, in Dallas.

Narrator 40:12 (laughs)

Bono 40:13 We, uh, opened-

Narrator 40:14 What year was this?

Bono 40:15 '81.

Narrator 40:17 (laughs)

Bono 40:18 I was-

Narrator 40:18 I was a freshman in high school.

Bono 40:20 ... I was 21.

Narrator 40:20 Wow.

Bono 40:20 We, we, we... In Au- Austin, we... I don't know if, if anyone can remember, but it was, it was, it was called the clu- Club Foot and it was a b- a bad pun. But there was no AC, and I remember it was a tin roof. And for Irish people, we were just being boiled. But I've really, really great memories of just bussing it through this sort of mythical landscape, you know. There was n- there's nowhere, nowhere in this country I would wanna fly over, but I do now. You know, we got the ph- the plane, you got the this. But I, I just remember thinking, "This is... There's so many Americas."

Narrator 41:07 Yes.

Bono 41:08 But the, the mythology of America... I was reading, you know, Sam Shepard. I was reading, you know, On The Road.

Narrator 41:15 Mm.

Bono 41:15 I was reading, you know, all these great writers and just opening up my imagination. That's where The Joshua Tree came from. And, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a mythology that then, can you imagine, I get to discover that, in my case, it's not just a mythology. It... I was part of something that was extraordinary. So former governor of, of this- of Texas, so George W. Bush, conservative, starts to lead the world in the fight against the AIDS pandemic, the greatest health crisis in 600 years, since the bubonic plague. And I'm like... And people said, "That's impossible. It's just not gonna happen." And he does, and becomes a bipartisan thing-... and 26 million lives are saved. So it's strange, the way you see things. I had this... It wasn't a naive, um, sense of America, but it was a sense that everything could be possible here, that w- it was somehow the landscape of America was, was a little more magical than, than everywhere else, and that it wasn't just a country, America, it was an idea.

Joe Rogan 42:51 Yes. Yeah. I... At, at its greatest-

Bono 42:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:54 ... that is what America is. At its greatest, it's an idea, and it's an idea that was, like I, as you said, was founded with the, the concepts behind the Declaration of Independence.

Bono 43:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:04 And those, those men who wrote that, the men who signed the Bill of Rights, it was like, they were so young.

Bono 43:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:10 They were so young. Some of them were 18 years old-

Bono 43:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:12 ... at the time, which is so crazy.

Bono 43:14 Jefferson was 32 or 33 when he wrote that.

Joe Rogan 43:17 He's an old codger. Yeah.

Bono 43:18 I mean, that's why... And then, by the way, years later, he's in France, I think it's in the back, and he loved wine. And this emerged, I found this out because I, I saw a signature in a, in a book. I was on some tour, I like to drink, um, red wine. I've never been to Bordeaux in my life, but I, I went with some people who knew their way around wine, and they asked me to sign a book in this particular, (laughs) um, uh, vineyard, posh kind of vineyard. But this was across the road from the big name sort of thing, and I asked, I said, "Can I see the first book?" There's Thomas Jefferson's name in the first one. I thought, "Wow, this guy's dreaming up America on some very fancy red plonk." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:08 Yeah.

Bono 44:08 Not plonk, actually. Some really... There's just... But, uh, you know, all I'm... I know there's lots of contradictions in-

Joe Rogan 44:16 Sure.

Bono 44:17 ... in America, and I know there was slavery still and that he had slaves, and I understand. But I'm encouraged that America perhaps doesn't exist yet, but it's still being written.

Joe Rogan 44:35 Right.

Bono 44:35 If you think about it as a song, you think about it as a piece of music, it's not finished.

Joe Rogan 44:40 Right, right.

Bono 44:41 It's still being written.

Joe Rogan 44:42 Yeah.

Bono 44:42 They started at those signatures.

Joe Rogan 44:44 Yeah.

Bono 44:44 W- you, and if you let people (laughs) like me stay, you, you know, we're still... You know, you're writing this. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not writing it. I'm the annoying fan who follows America into the bathroom, and, and with the liner notes, which are the Declaration-

Joe Rogan 45:03 (laughs)

Bono 45:03 ... going, "Didn't you say this here?" And they-

Joe Rogan 45:05 Right.

Bono 45:05 ... "Get out. Who followed me into the bathroom?" It's like, but, but I... Yeah. I, I, I like the idea that it's, that this is far from finished, this composition.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Yes.

Bono 45:20 And for some people, the America that is available to you and me doesn't exist yet, but it will, and it can, and, uh, and... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:32 We hope that every election cycle, like this, this will be the one that finally makes us what we truly believe we are.

Bono 45:38 Mm-hmm. It's-

Joe Rogan 45:39 But the, the country is just so co-opted by this... First of all, you have this genuine issue with the fact that it's essentially a popularity contest-

Bono 45:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:50 ... to see who gets to be running the government.

Bono 45:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:52 You have a popularity contest that's fueled entirely by special interests-

Bono 45:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 45:57 ... and the military-industrial complex and pharmaceutical drug companies, and it's just... It's a, it's all, it's all the opposite of this- of an authentic song.

Bono 46:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:08 The thing about an authentic song where s- it, the, it makes your fucking goosebumps stand up, you're like, "Goddamn." Can I tell you a story?

Bono 46:14 You saying it's an AI comp- composition?

Joe Rogan 46:16 Can I tell you a story? (clears throat) Um, a long time ago, probably 25 years ago, I was on mushrooms with a friend of mine, and we were laying on the side of this hill overlooking this canyon, and we played In God's Country.

Bono 46:32 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 46:34 And i- it was just the, the, the peak of the mushrooms, and the songs, the melody, the way that song hit, it just... It gave me this insane appreciation for things. Like at that mo- it was like this very unique fusion of the beauty of the music and the love of the experience, like the... Mushrooms bring out this like loving, like communal quality, like happiness, and, and joy. And just lying in this field looking up at this canyon and hearing that song, it was like, "This is what, what music does." It takes these moments and wherever they're at, it breaks them through the membrane into this new place.

Bono 47:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:24 Like this moment, it broke through this membrane and brought me to this space. I think about it all the time. I think about that particular experience all the time.

Bono 47:32 We need... The line in that when I'm singing is, um, is a line that doesn't just apply to America but applies to us personally, um, wherever you are, is, you know, we need new dreams tonight. And you-

Joe Rogan 47:50 Yeah.

Bono 47:50 ... can't be living on... We've got, we can't be living on secondhand dreams.

Joe Rogan 47:55 Yeah.

Bono 47:55 And that's, I think... The renewal, I think is what, what we're all looking for, and, um, and, uh, yeah. It's, it's, it's something to be protected, and, and I... Not protected. That sounds like it's... It's n- it's like it...

Joe Rogan 48:17 I think you're right, though.

Bono 48:18 I, I, but I, I think, I th- I think America's more vulnerable now than it's ever been. I feels like America's-

Joe Rogan 48:26 (clears throat)

Bono 48:26 ... fallen outta love with the rest of the world. I don't think the world wants to fall outta love with America-... it fe- it just feels like. And, you know, s- I've, uh, 20, 25 years, and, and I'm just a tiny cog in, I suppose, you know, people thi- look at p- personalities or, you know, uh, even luminous ones or ones that have ideas way above their station and think that will, you know, that, that might change things. But it's social movements always change things. And what happened back then with, with that Heart of America tour was, was mind-blowing because I learned a few things that I wasn't expecting. Like, I had grown up with a c- couple of... more than a few bumps, um, with evangelicals. You know, it was like, "Whoop." (laughs) You know, it was like-

Narrator 49:25 Hmm. Yeah.

Bono 49:26 ... because, you know, how do you... you can't approach the subject of God without metaphor, right?

Narrator 49:30 Right.

Bono 49:30 So literalism is, by its nature, anti-metaphor. And, you know, Jesus, all we know is that he spoke in parables because it's, they're not literal. How do you explain these? There's po- poetry, there's music. And I found it really difficult to be around evangelicals because they were so, you know, just literal about everything.

Narrator 49:55 Yeah.

Bono 49:55 And then, on that same tour where I met Warren Buffett, I ended up at a college called Wheaton College, which is like a big, uh, in Chicago. It's a big evangelical thing. And they were like, they were really helpful. And there was like... I realized that these were kind of... and this is not to be at all dismissive of a g- of some incredible people, but it was like, I felt there was, they were sort of narrow-minded, sort of, what would I say, just sort of narrow-mi- th- the, the vision, if I could just open the aperture of their vision, uh, just a little bit wider-

Narrator 50:37 Yeah.

Bono 50:37 ... that they could be the most incredible force for good because they just worked harder, they didn't tell lies, they, they were just great people. And I think they, they led part of this movement that then ended up saving 26 million lives, you know, and called PEPFAR that George Bush started and Obama continued. Then I go to Catholics, and I'd end up in Notre Dame. And I had a few brews (laughs) with the Catholics over the years too. And I'm meeting these people, and they're like, "No, no. We're, we're, we, we wanna ha- we, we, we believe in the value of human life, and we, if we can do this, h- how much does this cost?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, all of foreign aid is probably just less than 1% of government spending, but the part that keeps people alive is on- is half of that, so it's like half a percent. Now, it's not my money. It's up to you if you wanna do that." But they did. And lots of people came together. There was priests and punks, you know? It was the wildest collection of people. And, and just recently, like in, in the last three months, and this is not about politics because I've worked with conservatives, I've worked with liberals. I d- I don't care, you know? I don't have those... I'm Irish, I don't have a chance to vote. But

Bono 52:08 all of that was torn down without a heads-up, without any notice because people thought foreign aid was like 10% of the budget or 20%, and it was doing things that it shouldn't have been doing. And I'm sure there was some waste, but I can tell you, as a person who, who saw what the United States were doing around the world and saw this, this... I saw America display itself at its finest. And I remember being in the Oval Office with President Bush and, and ha- and these antiretroviral drugs, I said, "Paint them red, white, and blue, Mr. President. These are the best advertisements for America there'll ever be." And he's looking at me (laughs) thinking I'm taking the piss, but I'm not, and he wasn't as it turns out. And, and he, he spoke about the, the least of these, which is a wild concept. I don't know if you know this, but it's like the... it's, uh, it's in Matthew, I think it is. It's, it's, it's, uh, it w- it's the only time that, um, Jesus speaks of judgment. It's not like what's going on in your pants. It's not like (laughs) what's going on over here or over there. The first time Jesus Christ speaks in kind of force of judgment is the way we treat the poor-

Narrator 53:35 Hmm.

Bono 53:35 ... the poorest of the poor, and he says, "Well, in the way that you're treating these, the least of, of them, the, the sick, the blind, the people w- w- who, who are suffering from malnutrition, that's how you treat me. I am them." And so now, when we cut to the people... Like you, you went to Boston University, r- um, you taught at f- uh, Boston University, right?

Narrator 54:03 I taught martial arts there, yeah.

Bono 54:04 So, so just recent report, th- it's not proven, but their surveillance enough suggests 300,000 people have already died from just this cutoff, this hard cut of USAID. So there's food rotting in boats, in warehouses. There is... This, this, this will, will fuck you off. This will not... You will not be happy. No American will. But there is, I think it's 50,000 tons of food-... that are stored in Djibouti, South Africa, Dubai, and wait for it, Houston, Texas. And it, that is rotting, rather than going to Gaza, rather than going to Sudan, because the people who know the codes- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:57 (laughs)

Bono 54:57 ... or for the warehouse th- tha- tha- are fired, they're gone. And so this, I don't know, I just, it's, I'm... What do you think? What, what i- what is, what is that? That's n-

Joe Rogan 55:10 (sighs)

Bono 55:10 That's not America, is it?

Joe Rogan 55:11 Well, they're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Bono 55:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:13 Right? This is the problem. The problem is, e- for sure, there have been a lot of organizations that-

Bono 55:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:21 ... do tremendous good all throughout the world. Also, for sure, it was a money-laundering operation. For sure, there was no oversight. For sure, billions of dollars are missing, in fact, trillions, that are unaccounted for, that were sent off into various... Th- they, they don't even know where because there's no receipts. The way Elon Musk described it, he said, "If any of this was done by a public company, the company would be delisted and the executives would be in prison." But in the United States, this is standard. When Biden left office, when it was clear that Trump won in the 73 days, they spent $93 billion from the Department of Energy on just radical loans, just throwing money into places.

Bono 56:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:10 And there's no, no oversight, no receipts. Like, the, the whole thing is w- it's, there's a lot of fraud, a lot of money laundering. But also, we help the world, and when you're talking about making wells for people in the Congo to get fresh water, when you're talking about food and medicine to places that don't have access, like, no way that should've been cut out, and that should've been clear before they make these radical cuts. Like, there's gotta be a way to keep aid and not have fraud. And you can't ha-

Bono 56:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:44 You can't say, "We're gonna kill everything so that there's no fraud." But then you're killing all the good, and you're doing it without letting anybody know it's gonna happen so no one's... It's not like they had three years to prepare, "Let's build a new infrastructure."

Bono 56:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:56 "Let's make sure that everything's set up."

Bono 56:58 Hmm. Hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:58 They want to change and they want to change quickly. And due to the nature of American politics, they have about two years before the midterms, right? So everything has to get done as quickly as possible. You have to have show of growth in GDP. You have to show that the economy's booming again under these ideas, make America first, tariffs for the world, bring back American manufacturing, and this mad rush to do it all as quickly as possible while cutting out as much waste as possible.

Bono 57:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:22 But the ironic thing is even though Elon Musk has proposed all these things and the Doge Committee has proposed all these things, they've made no cuts in terms of the budget. They've cut nothing.

Bono 57:32 They ve- it's-

Joe Rogan 57:33 They vote against it.

Bono 57:33 ... such a tiny part, I mean, if, if, if, if it's big government or whatever p- people wanna, wanna shrink, I, I, I, I, I g- I, I get the instinct. But this, the life-saving part-

Joe Rogan 57:51 Yes.

Bono 57:51 ... i- i- it's like the little finger of the giant.

Joe Rogan 57:53 Right. Exactly.

Bono 57:54 I mean, and, and I've, I've met all these people and I'm sure there's, there's part of it... You know, there's, I think, about 10% of it goes to things like governance and, you know, uh, human rights organizations. You might say that's political and we shouldn't be involved in that. And there's reforms, I imagine, that might have been necessary. But to h- have the reforms, but, but to, to, to destroy, to, to vandalize, I mean, it felt like with glee these life support systems were being pulled out of the walls. And I was, I was reading today, you know, and it's like, I think it's cr- in, in Christianity today, and they're just talking, I think it's called Christian Relief, one of these organizations, and they're dealing with malnourished kids and they are having the conversation now about, "We don't have the funds. We have to choose which child to pull off the IVs."

Joe Rogan 58:51 Wow.

Bono 58:52 And it just seems to me like a kind of... I don't, I, I don't know if, if evil is a strong word, um, too strong a word, but what we know about pure evil is it rejoices in the deaths, you know, of ev- the, the squandering of human life, particularly children's.

Joe Rogan 59:15 And suffering.

Bono 59:16 Yeah. It actually rejoices in it. And, and I just, it, uh, you know, whether it's, whether it's incompetence, whether it's unintended consequences, it's, it's not too late for people... Like, I'm, I, I have conversations with, with, with Marco Rubio. He's convinced people aren't died- dying yet. He, it's, it's, it's, i- I don't know who's telling him or not telling him rather, but he, his instincts are correct. He, you know, he wants to die. He used to wear a "One" campaign armband. Americans, no matter what political color, they just, they just, they just, you s- you see them just the size in, in w- sort of they just gr- grow in stature when they know they're being useful. I had a truck driver on that same tour. He had like tattoos all over his head and whatever, and he was just saying, "Can I drive? I heard 50% of all truck drivers in Africa are gonna die. Is that right? Because of this disease, AIDS." I said, "Yeah." He said, "Can I give you my number? I will drive." Like, that's America. And, and yeah, there's the bureaucracy, the, the, the, the, the pen-pushers, I get it, and I get people's frustration for it. But, but I'm just, I just wanna remind Americans of the size...... of their country. And it's... and I'm not talking about the geography.

Joe Rogan 1:00:44 The impact.

Bono 1:00:45 I'm just... The, the size of the idea.

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 Yes.

Bono 1:00:48 The, the, the, the... You know, it's just... It's, it's just an extraordinary thing. It's an idea, I think, big enough to fit the whole world. And when it becomes a continent, you know... When it becomes an island rather than a continent... I think it's a subcontinent. What is it? (laughs) I should have, should have gone to geography, uh, uh, lessons more. But you know, you know, what I'm talking about.

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 Yeah.

Bono 1:01:14 When it shrinks, America seems to stop being America. And I know you don't wanna get into wars, and you shouldn't. Um, but that are... That, that, that don't concern you. But, but there's this, this word freedom, land of the free.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 Yeah.

Bono 1:01:35 That's... And the brave. This is, this is who we look to you f- f- for. And we look to you for these qualities, and I believe they're everywhere. And I don't believe any one party has a... has a hold on them-

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 No.

Bono 1:01:55 ... um, uh, on these, on these qualities. But, you know, it's just to say... It's a funny one for me. I... One of the reasons I came on, on, on, on the show, I wanted to... on the show was I, I wanted to interview you. I wanted to... I just wanted to get your take on where America is at the, at the present time because, because you're talking to everyone. You know, (clears throat) and this isn't... this is a compliment to you. But my book, you know, I wrote this book, Surrender, and sort of... if there's a point to it at the very end, it's, it's just I'm, I'm shouting at God, I'm having my wrestling match with my maker. (laughs) And you just get this thing of... and, and you probably picked it up by now, "Shut up and listen."

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 (laughs) Yeah.

Bono 1:02:47 And I need to listen more. You are a amazing listener. And I don't know who it was or some... who said listening doesn't grant the other side legitimacy, but it grants them their humanity and restores your own. You sit in this room and you listen to everybody, and that makes you very valuable, um, in... to, to the country. And, and I wanted to just get your, your take on it. What, what would your advice be to me and people like me who are not part of the big industrial complex? Just... We just, we just wanna serve the idea of America and the people who depend on that idea.

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 Yeah, I, I think-

Bono 1:03:44 What, what would be your advice to me?

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 Oh, I would give you zero advice. I, I don't know if I'm qualified to give advice. But I would say that America goes through these great periods of overcorrection.

Bono 1:03:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 It goes these great periods of... like you, you saw it during COVID, during the lockdowns and the authoritarianism, and we fell into a kind of state of tyranny where there was just massive oppression of free speech, including government-sponsored oppression. They were contacting, uh, different social media platforms and banning legitimate doctors and scholars because they had different opinions about how things-

Bono 1:04:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 ... should be handled. There was a wide scale censorship, a push for a changing of the First Amendment, "The First Amendment needs to be overhauled. The First Amendment doesn't appl- apply to hate speech or to disinformation." There was all these, like, new ways of talking about censorship-

Bono 1:04:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 ... in this country and condoning censorship, and it's very dangerous because it's all about money. It had nothing to do with protecting people. There's-

Bono 1:04:46 That's what I worry about.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Yeah.

Bono 1:04:47 The, the argument about free speech is that it seems to be sponsored by a lot of people who you sense don't really respect it so much. And it... but it is a very economic, um, for them to not have to-

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 Yes.

Bono 1:05:05 ... to live with the consequences-

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 Yes.

Bono 1:05:07 ... of, of a story. I think... Well, is it the communication? Do, do... I think it's the... 'Cause in 1996, this is a long time ago, Communications Act, Decency Act, that meant the internet did not have to apply by the same rules as the rest of the media.

Joe Rogan 1:05:26 Right.

Bono 1:05:26 So, we could say anything we wanted. And at first, that felt like liberation, but I'm not so sure anymore. And so, I mean, I, I... You can tell me more about this. I'm, I'm, I am not a free speech absolutist, um, but I, like... I do want to believe in free speech. But I'm nervous that the people who are supporting free speech and, and using their bots and their, their, their own activists are, are people from countries who would not at all respect our, your, or mine ability to express ourselves. And, um, that's what I worry about, is... I think, I think the, the old interweb is being (laughs) is being played like a, like a harp-

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 Unquestionably.

Bono 1:06:23 ... like, like an orchestra.

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 Yes.

Bono 1:06:24 And the people, you know, behind the curtain w- would surprise us, I think, if we knew.

Joe Rogan 1:06:30 I think it's worse than that. I think it's programmed like an EDM concert. I think... I don't... I think it's not even an orchestra. I, I, uh, I worry... And this has been substantiated by data that more than 50% of the interactions going on on the internet and social media are not real.... and there was a-

Bono 1:06:48 That's wild, this statistic.

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 ... former FBI analyst-

Bono 1:06:51 Sounds like so.

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Yes. Former FBI analyst had said it might be as much as 80%.

Bono 1:06:54 Um.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 It's bots, as you said. And this is, this is a problem with the concept of free speech. I'm, I'm completely wholly in favor of free speech, just like the ADL was back in the day when they let the Ku Klux Klan march.

Bono 1:07:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 They, they... Like, look.

Bono 1:07:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:10 You got to-

Bono 1:07:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 You... The way to combat bad speech is with better speech. The way to find out whose arguments are correct is to let them debate in the marketplace of free ideas and expose these people for what they are. And have the people that are on the sidelines, that are letting these great thinkers have these discussions say, "Okay. This guy makes sense. This guy's clearly a grifter. This guy has ulterior motives. This guy has an ideology that's very toxic and he's trying to push this on the whole world for control, for power, for money, to benefit the special interest groups that he's a part of."

Bono 1:07:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 Or whatever it is. That the problem with free speech is you're, you're also gonna get a lot of ugliness because there's a lot of ugliness in the world. You're gonna get a lot of people that say horrible things.

Bono 1:07:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 And I think the only way we sort through all that is you have to let them. And then, you have to let people rise up that oppose those horrible ideas and those people become heroes. Those become the Martin Luther King Juniors.

Bono 1:08:06 Well, humor helps.

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Humor helps.

Bono 1:08:07 Like, uh, hu- hu- humor helps. One thing we know about the Ku Klux (laughs) Klan is, if you mention the silly costumes-

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 Yeah. (laughs)

Bono 1:08:17 ... they, they don't like that. They... You know, it, it's like they want you to be afraid or they want you to be nervous.

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 Yes. Yes.

Bono 1:08:23 But it's like, dude, look at the stage gear.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 You're a ghost.

Bono 1:08:26 (laughs) It's like, it's like, come on.

Joe Rogan 1:08:28 Do you know who Daryl Davis is?

Bono 1:08:29 No.

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 Daryl Davis is a musician who, um... He's... Was a traveling blues musician and, uh, did some shows where, afterwards, he met some people that told him that they were in the Ku Klux Klan. And he was like, "Are you kidding?" And they show... The guy shows him his fucking Grand Wizard iden- ID card or whatever the hell it is.

Bono 1:08:51 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 He becomes friends with this guy.

Bono 1:08:52 "Here's my card."

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 Daryl's Black.

Bono 1:08:54 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 Daryl's a Black man. And becomes friends with this guy, goes to his house, meets his family. The guy throws the robe away, gives up his membership in the KKK. Renounces his membership and gives Daryl the robes, says, "I want you to have this." Daryl has done that personally. The last time I talked to him was a few years back. He'd done this personally to over 200 people, just by being an amazing human being, by being a brilliant artist-

Bono 1:09:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 ... and, and hanging out with them. Just being kind and talk... And as an example of just a great human. And they were like, "I guess I'm wrong. I guess I'm wrong. This idea that Black people are inferior and the white man is a superior race, that can't be true because I love this guy."

Bono 1:09:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:38 And so, they would just quit.

Bono 1:09:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:39 They'd quit. And he has this tact.

Bono 1:09:42 It's not the smartest theory.

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 It's a terrible theory. But if you're in a place with only terrible theories and that's what you grow up, there's Daryl.

Bono 1:09:48 Uh.

Joe Rogan 1:09:48 And they give him all his robes.

Bono 1:09:50 (laughs) I, I...

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 (laughs)

Bono 1:09:50 He, he, he, he... Uh, you know, good man.

Joe Rogan 1:09:54 He's a great man.

Bono 1:09:55 Good man. And, and-

Joe Rogan 1:09:56 And he, he's a kind, like very peaceful. Like, when, when you speak to him, he's-

Bono 1:10:02 But-

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 ... real... He's amazing.

Bono 1:10:04 One of your... You know, again, one of the reasons I'm, I'm here is the... I think there is a sense that people just wanna be part of something. And, you know, when we're growing up, there, there were clubs you could be a part of. You know, there's, there's, there's, there are, there's people you could hang out with and you knew where that was going. But if you wanted to belong and have a sense of purpose, you ended up there.

Joe Rogan 1:10:41 Mm-hmm.

Bono 1:10:41 And, and so, I think that it's okay f- to... On- f- for, for, for men to admit that in this moment, they are probably, you know... We're, we're a l- we're a little adrift. I hear this from my daughters.

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 (laughs)

Bono 1:11:05 I hear this from my wife. And it's, it's like that's... We're... This feeling of, of, of being dislocated. It's, it's... So, you're attracted to these simple ideas, you know, the concept of the gang or America, like it's a team sport between the reds and the blues. America's the team. That's all.

Joe Rogan 1:11:32 Yes.

Bono 1:11:32 Yeah. That's... And, and, and this thing... And, and look, I'm vulnerable. We were... We are all. Especially when you're growing up, teenagers, you know, you are very vulnerable to, to those points of view.

Joe Rogan 1:11:46 Yes.

Bono 1:11:47 I... You know, early on, we had sort of... Yeah. I would say I had a... I got close to what you might call fundamentalists. And this is all versions of fundamentalism. There...

Joe Rogan 1:12:02 Yeah.

Bono 1:12:03 It's all a very narrow view.

Joe Rogan 1:12:06 Yeah.

Bono 1:12:06 And, and, you know, what you see going on right in, in Gaza is you see, you see Palestinian people being held hostage by Hamas. It's not just Israeli that are being held hostage by Hamas.

Joe Rogan 1:12:23 Right.

Bono 1:12:24 Palestinian people and the fundamentalists in, in, in, in Israel in this... In, in, in the cabinet, these far-right fundamentalists. Because at a time... You remember a few years back, everything was kind of wishy-washy and kind of the new age and whatever you're having yourself. And now, these strong, clear points of view have arrived. And-

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 It's the great overcorrection.

Bono 1:12:49 It's the great overcorrection.

Joe Rogan 1:12:51 Yeah. The, the... There's a real problem with ideology. And there's a real problem with fundamentalism. And it... There's a cowardice in it. And there's a cowardice in, "I'm the only one that's correct." There's a cowardice in not listening to any other ideas, not listening to any other positions. And we're being played against each other in this country. The thing about the bots and the social media stuff is it just accentuates this divide between the left and the right, which I think is mostly bullshit. Most people are good people. Most people just want-... to be happy and healthy and have friends and family and do what they wanna do for a living, and have the freedom to pursue those things. Most people aren't trying to victimize people. Most people aren't trying to-

Bono 1:13:31 Believe.

Joe Rogan 1:13:31 ... destroy other peoples' lives and destroy, destroy society. They, they, they, they just want to live their life, but they're being sucked into one side or the other that which is radically opposed to each other, the great over-correction.

Bono 1:13:44 Did you think that President Zelenskyy was being bullied in that meeting in the Oval Office? Like, is that ... just, just think about it as a playground. This is a guy, his, maybe, maybe his life depended, but certainly the life of many, many people he knew depended on, and he had to, he to, he to listen to that.

Joe Rogan 1:14:03 Well, the whole thing is strange, right? I mean, uh, uh, uh, the argument in the White House of like, "You, you don't have the right hand of cards." And you know, the, just the fact that this is all being done publicly is very strange.

Bono 1:14:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:16 Right? That there's cameras and photographers.

Bono 1:14:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:19 Like, I don't like live podcasts sometimes. I've done them before, but there's something about having an audience where you're playing to an audience, having, you know, these con- Conversations should be just a, a couple people in a room. That's what I think.

Bono 1:14:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:33 I think that's the mo- the ones that resonate with me the most.

Bono 1:14:36 You're good at it when you hear.

Joe Rogan 1:14:36 Yeah, this is, uh, I just think it's the best way to do it, the way that resonates the most. I think the kinda conversation that you're gonna have with a world leader shouldn't be performative. And it, it certainly shouldn't be, uh, with a bunch of people snapping photographs and pointing cameras and then pushing each other back and forth, you know? "You don't, you don't have the right hand, hand of cards. This is not cards. You are playing cards." And it's just-

Bono 1:15:01 Just, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:01 ... a cra- it's a crazy way, and e- each calling each other disrespectful. It's a crazy way to handle any world events. It's just terrible platform for it.

Bono 1:15:09 Yeah. Just think of, again, I think of America, the Americans of Omaha Beach, the people who, like, the level of courage.

Joe Rogan 1:15:18 Yeah.

Bono 1:15:19 And I think of these people on the front line in, um, Europe. I mean, I haven't really spoken about Europe, uh, w- with, with you. But, you know, if, if, if, if America's the melting pot, I would say Europe's the, the mosaic, you know? It's all these different people who speak with a different language, uh, but ha- are trying for one voice in Europe, which is, it can sound like cacophony. They call it Eurobabble in, in, in Brussels. But I'm, I've really, I'm really now realizing how romantic it was, you know, with the enlightenment, with the renaissance, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:16:01 Yeah.

Bono 1:16:01 We've got, we got a lot to offer. And, and, and Europe has ... Europe's under threat. And those bots at every election now that, where this candidate is pro-Europe and pro-European unity, they are just getting a shit storm of disinformation.

Joe Rogan 1:16:23 Mm-hmm.

Bono 1:16:23 And I just think, "Wow." But it's, I think Europe is, and America are just sexier than these people. Is that a, a trite thing to say? But it's like they're, they're so kinda unsexy.

Joe Rogan 1:16:41 (laughs)

Bono 1:16:41 You know? That's, I mean, that's ... Sorry, I have, I have driven up-

Joe Rogan 1:16:45 Unromantic.

Bono 1:16:45 ... unromantic. It's-

Joe Rogan 1:16:47 Yes.

Bono 1:16:47 That's right. It's just these very dull, not funny people.

Joe Rogan 1:16:53 Right.

Bono 1:16:54 And are trying to-

Joe Rogan 1:16:55 Not captivated by a greater idea.

Bono 1:16:55 ... take over the world. They're not funny.

Joe Rogan 1:16:58 Right.

Bono 1:16:58 Lukashenko of Belarus, that dude is not funny.

Joe Rogan 1:17:02 (laughs)

Bono 1:17:02 We don't have to go further. (laughs) We don't have to go further.

Joe Rogan 1:17:05 Who do you think is the funniest world leader?

Bono 1:17:08 Oh my God. Who ... Yeah, that's a really good question.

Joe Rogan 1:17:11 It's gotta be Trump. He's the funniest.

Bono 1:17:13 Well, he has a thing that a lot of standup comedians have, which is he can say the thing in the room that no one else is gonna say.

Joe Rogan 1:17:27 Right.

Bono 1:17:28 And that generally creates a laugh. And, um, but I also think he mightn't be able to take a joke.

Joe Rogan 1:17:37 Well, he's not good at that. He doesn't enjoy a joke coming his way.

Bono 1:17:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:42 No, he doesn't.

Bono 1:17:42 I mean, uh, Zelenskyy is actually a comedian.

Joe Rogan 1:17:45 Right.

Bono 1:17:46 I, I met him-

Joe Rogan 1:17:46 Yeah.

Bono 1:17:46 ... before he became president, so-

Joe Rogan 1:17:48 Played piano with his penis on television.

Bono 1:17:50 It, it's quite a, it's, it was quite a piano. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:54 (laughs) I mean, it's funny to go from playing piano with your penis-

Bono 1:17:58 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:58 ... to becoming the president of the Ukraine.

Bono 1:18:01 (laughs) Becoming the president of the United States-

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 Yeah.

Bono 1:18:03 ... by all accounts.

Joe Rogan 1:18:04 Right, right, right. Yeah.

Bono 1:18:04 So, so, um, but he, he came to Ireland as a comedian. He told me. I didn't know. And he played like small towns. I think he played Dundalk or Drogheda, somewhere in the east coast of Ireland. But comedians can read a room. I mean performers. Uh, I think comedians are at the top of the food chain because you don't have a band. You don't have a fucking tambourine.

Joe Rogan 1:18:36 (laughs)

Bono 1:18:36 You don't ... You just have the read of the room and the material has to be really funny. I use this sometimes with our band. Not ... A lot of our music is just experimental and innovative and we improvise and then we try to turn it into songs. But sometimes we'll write a pop song. And, and we'll end up with a pop song and I'll say, "Well, the thing about a pop song is, it is empirical. It's like it either is or it isn't. It's like a joke that doesn't have a punchline." It's like a comedian does not walk out on stage and tell a joke, and if people don't laugh, go, "They just don't get it." It just means the joke isn't funny. So I ... It's not a popular theory in our band by the way, but I hold onto it very tight. I just say, "If you can't go out and play this song-... and it just connect- then it's not a pop song. We don't... We only do a few pop songs every, (laughs) every decade probably, because, well, a lot of what we... U2 does is different kind of rock and roll. But I do think there's something empirical about some songs are better than the others.

Joe Rogan 1:19:51 Yes.

Bono 1:19:52 I witnessed a... I witnessed one of the most ridiculous, uh, moments in, in my life, but it was kind of funny. Um, Oasis, d'you know Oasis?

Joe Rogan 1:20:04 Sure.

Bono 1:20:04 They are a good band. They're an amazing band.

Joe Rogan 1:20:05 Love them.

Bono 1:20:05 I just love them. And, um, so I witnessed this, it couldn't be a more childish fight between m- m- two of my friends, Liam Gallagher was a friend at that point, um, I know Noel better now, but... And Michael Hutchence who was the singer of-

Joe Rogan 1:20:26 INXS.

Bono 1:20:28 ... INXS. And they really were doing the, "My song's better than your song."

Joe Rogan 1:20:32 Oh, no.

Bono 1:20:33 And, "No, no, what about..." No, no. And, and, and-

Joe Rogan 1:20:36 (laughs)

Bono 1:20:36 ... I was thinking that, I was laughing to myself and then I thought-

Joe Rogan 1:20:40 Ugh.

Bono 1:20:42 ... "Hmm, it's interesting. Both of them have a point. That song of theirs might be better than theirs." And I started to think about it, and comedians don't get a chance to have... to be subjective. It's not like Prince walks out and plays a whole new album and can go, "They just don't get it." It's like, you're either funny or you're not.

Joe Rogan 1:21:09 Right.

Bono 1:21:10 You're going down fl- have you gone down in flames?

Joe Rogan 1:21:12 Oh, f- sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Bono 1:21:14 Whereas, what was your worst gig?

Joe Rogan 1:21:16 Oh, I've had so many. (laughs)

Bono 1:21:18 (laughs) But-

Joe Rogan 1:21:18 Especially in the early days, you're trying to figure it out and, you know... The, the thing about material is, material is essentially like, like a calf that's newly born and it has awkward legs and it has to develop into a bull, but it takes a long time. It takes crafting. You have to sit with it, you have to go over the i- some g- ideas come to you in full form and some d- ideas you have to believe in them, you know there's something there, and you have to dig and, you know, trust the muse and find it. And, you know, sometimes those bits will just fucking bomb, and you have to just like go, "God, should I g- abandon this? Should I keep working on this?" Like-

Bono 1:21:58 Do you have a team of writers?

Joe Rogan 1:22:00 No.

Bono 1:22:01 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:22:02 No, I just write everything myself.

Bono 1:22:03 You're kidding?

Joe Rogan 1:22:04 No. Always. Yeah. Always have. Always write my-

Bono 1:22:07 'Cause, w-

Joe Rogan 1:22:07 I just like-

Bono 1:22:08 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:22:08 ... my, my view on standup, the kind of standup that I do is supposed to be here's the world through my eyes, this is how I'm seeing things, from the most ridiculous, awestruck, and laughing at everything perspective, and I have t- it has to be through my lens.

Bono 1:22:23 Well, that's amazing. I mean, 'cause I've seen, you know, on Saturday Night Live when we do it, or I've seen some of the talk shows, you see these geniuses, you know, crunching jokes and coming out with material, and-

Joe Rogan 1:22:36 That's a different thing.

Bono 1:22:37 ... it's a different thing.

Joe Rogan 1:22:38 Yeah. Like a Saturday Night Live monologue or, you know-

Bono 1:22:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:40 ... a Tonight Show monologue or any of that kind of thing, it's a, that's a different thing. The, the real standup is clubs. You know? I mean, I-

Bono 1:22:47 I went to the club... with Dave Chappelle to a club, and he brought me to, um-

Joe Rogan 1:22:51 Was it-

Bono 1:22:51 It was amazing. Are you still friendly with him?

Joe Rogan 1:22:52 Oh, real good friends. Yeah, I love him to death. Yeah.

Bono 1:22:55 He's, he's, he's incred- he... That's jazz.

Joe Rogan 1:22:58 Yes. He's a real artist.

Bono 1:22:59 He can go... Well, well, you know, it's like... Yeah. No, I'm, I'm... I think... Why am I, why am I telling you about this? I'm telling you about this b-... Oh yeah, because people can't take a joke.

Joe Rogan 1:23:10 Right.

Bono 1:23:11 And some people... I mean, we don't need belly laughs out of our leaders-

Joe Rogan 1:23:15 No.

Bono 1:23:15 ... we just need vision.

Joe Rogan 1:23:16 You need, you need vision and kindness.

Bono 1:23:18 But if... But to deal with the Ku Klux Klan-

Joe Rogan 1:23:22 Yeah.

Bono 1:23:22 ... humor helps. To deal with, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:23:24 Right.

Bono 1:23:25 ... the fascists or whatever, I, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:23:27 Yes.

Bono 1:23:27 ... certainly Hitler in, well, I think late 30s was getting rid of the Dadaists and the surrealists 'cause the language of fascism was to fight back, but that... they liked that language. And, I mean, th- the language of resistance against, you know, Hitler was to fight back and, and... but they l- that suited them. They did not like being laughed at.

Joe Rogan 1:23:51 Oh.

Bono 1:23:51 Siegurrd did not like being laughed at.

Joe Rogan 1:23:53 Yeah. Well, 'cause if you can mock something, like you can, you can have a position or an opinion on something and someone can disagree strongly, but if they make everyone laugh at that position, now you're p- now they've made a real point because it's actually c-... an opinion that you might not have even agreed with has caused you to belly laugh. Like, "Oh, God." Like, that's how you really get it, 'cause if you go on stage and just have a bunch of opinions and just lecture people, there's people in the audience they'll go, "Well, y- well, fuck you, I feel differently."

Bono 1:24:22 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:24:22 But if you could go on stage with that opinion and make people laugh at something they know they shouldn't be laughing at, and like, "Oh, my God." And you're li- like... then you're introducing ideas into a person. It's the spoonful of sugar that mak- helps the medicine go down.

Bono 1:24:36 Yeah, no, uh, you're certainly the... 'Cause with rock stars, and again, (laughs) I honestly feel like I'm just imp- impersonating one. I don't think I, I am the material really, but people when they see me coming, they sit on their wallet. You know what I mean? They're like, "Whoop, here he comes and he's gonna have a sign up." And it's like... Whereas comedians, people are much more open.

Joe Rogan 1:25:00 Mm.

Bono 1:25:01 People will... people will s- will, are just more open. I think that's a, that's a, that... it's a responsibility, but it's... it's something to be valued. It's just... I, I, I was saying to somebody recently, I'm not sure I trust people anymore who aren't a little bit funny.

Joe Rogan 1:25:22 Yeah.

Bono 1:25:23 I mean funny in the-

Joe Rogan 1:25:24 Right.

Bono 1:25:24 ... not the funny peculiar.

Joe Rogan 1:25:26 Right, right.

Bono 1:25:26 There's a place for that too.

Joe Rogan 1:25:28 Right.

Bono 1:25:28 But, you know. People who make you laugh are open.

Joe Rogan 1:25:31 Yes. And also the contradictions of the world and how bizarre things are-

Bono 1:25:35 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:25:36 ... it's just...... ripe with humor, and if you don't ever pick up on it, like what are you focusing on? Like you don't ever see the hypocrisy and the ludicrousness of just this existence, this temporary existence on a spinning orb hurling through the universe, and concentrating on who gets to use what bathroom? Like is this like ... You know what I mean?

Bono 1:25:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:25:57 It's like, we're weird. We're very weird, and if you don't see that, you're not paying all attention. You're not all in. You're certainly not balanced, you know?

Bono 1:26:07 Those mushrooms were working very well for you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:26:09 Yeah, oh, I'm telling you, man, In God's Country, that's the ticket. (clicks tongue)

Bono 1:26:14 That's beautiful.

Joe Rogan 1:26:15 Yeah.

Bono 1:26:15 I, I, I, um ... Wow, I'm, I'm so touched. That album, you know, a lot of the songs on that were, you know, very vulnerable.

Joe Rogan 1:26:27 Mm-hmm.

Bono 1:26:28 You know, and I don't know if you know, Brian Eno, uh, was a p- produced a ... went and invented ambient music, and worked with David Bowie, Talking Heads, you know, um, and recently, uh, c- Coldplay and other people. Um, but he was ... had a profound influence on us. 'Cause we didn't go to ... I didn't go to art college. All, like The Beatles, The Stones, they all went to art college. We went to Brian Eno, and he had this incredible musician in partnership with him for the production of that album called Daniel Lanois, one of the greatest musicians you will ever meet in your life. And that ... Some songs come really quickly, like boom, you just ... But some are just like what you're saying. They're like the, the, the foal, the, the, the legs-

Joe Rogan 1:27:20 Yeah.

Bono 1:27:20 ... are going around.

Joe Rogan 1:27:21 Yeah.

Bono 1:27:21 And the one that was like that was Where The Streets Have No Name. And so we were working (laughs) on it for what felt like weeks, and Brian Eno came in, and he just said, "I am not having us spend one more minute on this song." And he went to wipe it, so he was actually gonna wipe it.

Joe Rogan 1:27:43 Whoa.

Bono 1:27:43 And, and s- so there was no other copies, and Pat McCarthy, who was our engineer, went on to produce R.E.M. and Madonna, great dude, he physically blocked Brian from it. And ... But that song, for me, and it's ... it's not the lyric that I'm most proud of or anything, 'cause it's ... Brian was just saying to us, "Just go with your first sketch." Remember talking about paint on canvas?

Joe Rogan 1:28:13 Hmm. Yes.

Bono 1:28:14 But I'm saying, "But it's not ... it's not that clever. I want it ... You know." He said, "Don't let it be clever, just ... That's what you said. That's what you meant," and ... And it's the strangest thing, uh, Joe, because we go on stage and I sing that song, we sing that song, we play that song, and it's like, "What the fuck? Where, where The Streets Have No Name? What's that about?" Now I started it in Africa when I was with my wife, when I was a kid, and we were 25, something like, maybe 26. She was 24. And it was about the devastation that was happening in the Ethiopian famine, and I just couldn't explain it to myself. There was other inferences about the song, but none of them matter as much as this question to your audience, which is, "Do you wanna go there, to this place, place of imagination, place of soul, place of ... that other place?"

Joe Rogan 1:29:23 Yeah.

Bono 1:29:23 "Do you wanna ... Sh- sh- do you wanna go there? Should we ... Do you wanna go there together?" And everybody feels it-

Joe Rogan 1:29:30 Yeah.

Bono 1:29:30 ... because we all want to be outside of ourselves at a certain time, and we all wanna have that experience, that meeting with, some call it the universe, some call it God, some call it th- themselves, whatever.

Joe Rogan 1:29:46 Yeah.

Bono 1:29:47 But it's, it's music now. M- I think, you know, all art aspires to the condition of m- of music, but, but we g- I was saying, we go to church in the dark, you know, that's what rock and roll is, and we're just looking for little shards of light.

Joe Rogan 1:30:07 Yeah.

Bono 1:30:07 We find it in, in an audience. We find our transcendence together. With the movie, we also go to church in the dark, in cinema. You're sitting in a, you're in, you're in a dark space, and i- it's projected light telling other people's stories, and