Joe Rogan Experience #2344 - Amjad Masad

Amjad Masad is the founder and CEO of Replit, a cloud-based coding platform. He is also an outspoken voice on cultural and educational shifts in technology. ⁠https://www.replit.com⁠ The ultimate wireless hack. Make the switch at https://visible.com/rogan

Amjad MasadguestJoe Roganhost

Jul 2, 20252h 52mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,042 words

0:00 – 1:20
Counter-Strike roots, pro-gaming discipline, and why games can be “training”
1. AMAmjad Masad
  (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. (drumbeats)
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) What's up? How are you?
3. AMAmjad Masad
  What's up, man? Good.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  So, uh, having this, uh, big Counter-Strike tournament in town, does that give you the Joneses?
5. AMAmjad Masad
  Totally.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
7. AMAmjad Masad
  Totally. You know, it's like, your ... So, your- your- your- your guy, Jason, um, was telling me about it. Uh, 'cause y- you know, in- in addition to driving, he also, uh, flies the, uh, uh, helicopter. And he told me, like, the Red Bull guys were, like, flying off, and there was, like, this big tournament. I looked it up. It was like, "Oh, Counter-Strike." So, I used to be a bit of a pro player myself.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  So, uh, how do you get out of pro playing? 'Cause the problem with like playing games is that it's essentially like an eight-hour-a-day thing. Like, it becomes a giant chunk of your life, right? And I would imagine if you're playing pro, it's even more of a commitment.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  You know, I- I take a different view on- on- on games. You know, a lot of people kind of view it as a- as a sort of somehow like a negative thing, especially for kids. Actually, my- uh, I got my kid- my 4-year-old like a Nintendo, uh, Switch early on. We're playing together 'cause I feel like, for me, it helped me a lot with like strategy thinking, with reaction time.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
11. AMAmjad Masad
  I think like gamers tend to be- can- can think really fast.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Sure.
13. AMAmjad Masad
  And, uh-
1:20 – 3:23
Gaming improves real-world performance: surgeons, the military, and dexterity
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Have you seen the- the studies that they've done about surgeons?
2. AMAmjad Masad
  No, tell me.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Surgeons that play video games regularly are much less likely to make mistakes.
4. AMAmjad Masad
  I totally believe that, yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  It's- it's something in the neighborhood of 25%. Is that what it is, Jamie? Something like that? No, uh ...
6. AMAmjad Masad
  Right.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  But so much so that I would say you should teach video games to surgeons.
8. AMAmjad Masad
  100%. 100%.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, it sh- it should actually be like a required thing, like cross-training.
10. AMAmjad Masad
  Right. Isn't the Army also recruiting from gamers today as well? That's what I heard.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  I imagine like drone-
12. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  ... pilots.
14. AMAmjad Masad
  Right?
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Right? I mean, that would make a big difference.
16. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  If you- Especially if you can get them used to like the same controllers.
18. AMAmjad Masad
  Totally.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, because, you know, those controllers kind of become a part of your hand.
20. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, you know exactly where all the buttons are.
22. AMAmjad Masad
  Right.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  And if you're a kid that's playing fucking Counter-Strike or whatever it is-
24. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah?
25. JRJoe Rogan
  ... Call of Duty every day-
26. AMAmjad Masad
  Totally.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... I would imagine that- that just becomes second nature.
28. AMAmjad Masad
  Dexterity. Yeah, yeah.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
30. AMAmjad Masad
  You know-
3:23 – 6:56
From playing to watching: streaming, TikTok attention traps, and “dull dopamine”
1. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
2. AMAmjad Masad
  But, you know, Davey and I were talking about the one thing, and maybe that's kinda showing- showing our age a little bit, but the one thing that's kind of like a little weird/and also somehow like a little dystopian is the whole streaming situation, where like kids are not like playing the game. They're like watching someone play the game.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, that's not good.
4. AMAmjad Masad
  And it's like this zombifying thing, where like they'll-
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
6. AMAmjad Masad
  ... they'll spend hours just watching people.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, just TikToking ... It's essentially like TikTok but video games, right? 'Cause TikTok is kind of this mindless thing. You're just-
8. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  ... scrolling through mindless things, and now you're mindlessly watching someone else play a game.
10. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like someone is ... Like that there's this strange thing with technology where like someone is living life and doing things, and you're like sort of a ... It's almost voyeurism-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
12. AMAmjad Masad
  ... or something like that about it.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
14. AMAmjad Masad
  You know, uh, David Foster Wallace, um, you know, the guy from Infinite Jest-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
16. AMAmjad Masad
  ... wrote a- a- wrote a- a essay on- on TVs. And, you know, he- he- he committed su- suicide before, um, before like, you know, the emergence of- of mobile phones and things like that. But he was very prescient on the impact of technology on- on- on society, and especially on- on America. And he was also like addicted to TV. And he- he talked about how y- you know, it activates some kind of ... Something in us that is, uh, you know, something in human nature about voyeurism.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
18. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, and that's the thing that- that television and TikTok and things-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
20. AMAmjad Masad
  ... like that activate. And it's- it's like this negative, addictive kind of behavior that's like really bad for society.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  I definitely think there's an aspect of voyeurism, but there's just a- a dull drone of attention draw. There's a dullness to it-
22. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that just like sucks you in like slack-jawed.
24. AMAmjad Masad
  (laughs)
25. JRJoe Rogan
  You're just watching nonsense over and over-
26. AMAmjad Masad
  Right, right.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and over again that does just enough to captivate your attention.
28. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  But doesn't excite you, doesn't stimulate you-
30. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
6:56 – 8:44
Drugs, self-control, and Silicon Valley’s shift away from alcohol
1. AMAmjad Masad
  Th- there's a dude-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  ... addicted.
3. AMAmjad Masad
  I watched like a YouTube video, but like he's known for having this contrarian opinion on, on drugs that you can like control it, like you can, you can do these drugs and-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  What does he look like?
5. AMAmjad Masad
  I don't know. Um, I think, I think he's a Black dude. Uh...
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh. Carl Hart. Carl Hart. Dr. Carl Hart.
7. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. He was here?
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, yeah.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  He's been here a couple times.
11. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  It's great.
13. AMAmjad Masad
  What do you think of his ideas?
14. JRJoe Rogan
  (sighs) I think it's entirely biologically d- variable. Um, I know people that cannot drink. They, they drink and then they're gone. They get like hamster eyes, like, like they'll like get these black eyes where their, like their soul goes away and then they're just off to the races and-
15. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  ... picking up hookers and doing cocaine and they find themselves in Guatemala. (laughs)
17. AMAmjad Masad
  Oh, shit. (laughs)
18. JRJoe Rogan
  It's like they're just nuts. They can't drink.
19. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  I can drink. I, I, I don't, I don't pretend that the way my body handles alcohol is the way everybody's body hang- handles alcohol. I think that's the sa- the same with everything. I think that's the same most certainly with marijuana.
21. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  I know some people that just cannot smoke marijuana and other people it's fine.
23. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  I think it's very... We're all very different physically.
25. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. It's interesting, uh, alcohol, uh, is, um, is sort of on the downtend all of America, but, but, uh, es- especially with the young people, uh, especially in Silicon Valley.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
27. AMAmjad Masad
  Um, ev- everyone there, um, listens to Huberman.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
29. AMAmjad Masad
  I call him the Grand Mufti of Silicon Valley.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
8:44 – 13:13
Quitting drinking and building discipline: cold plunge, sauna, and controllable habits
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, I quit drinking. I drink, quit drinking over three months ago.
2. AMAmjad Masad
  Oh, wow. I know you guys did the, used to do the Sober October.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
4. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  A- and that wasn't that hard and, you know, I was like, "God, it's gonna be one whole month?" And then I did it, I was like, "That's pretty easy." But I, I just had some revelations, I guess. And it's, uh, b- I think the big one is just physical fitness. I work out so much and-
6. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  ... I would drink and go, go to the, my club and have a couple, not a lot either.
8. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Just have a few drinks and the next day just feel like total shit. And-
10. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm. I think with, with age, uh, especially it starts affecting you more.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  It's always been like that.
12. AMAmjad Masad
  It always? Okay.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  It's always been like that. I've always been hungover-
14. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... after a night of drinking, but it's, you don't feel it normally.
16. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Like in normal life, if I just did normal stuff, it'd be fine. It's when you're in the gym that you notice.
18. AMAmjad Masad
  Right.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  When you're doing like second and third set of squats or something like-
20. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  ... then you're like, "Oh, God."
22. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, 100%.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  And are you s- And I haven't had any bad days since I quit drinking.
24. AMAmjad Masad
  Oh, cool.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  I- it, I've eliminated all that and I'm like-
26. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Just that alone is worth it.
28. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  That, for, just that alone it's worth quitting.
30. AMAmjad Masad
  So, uh, you, why do you think there's a, there's this trend? Is it, is it mostly for health? Like the tr-
13:13 – 15:21
Early computers in Jordan: DOS, modding games, and programming as a ‘gateway drug’
1. AMAmjad Masad
  But the other thing, uh, for me is, uh, programming. So I got into programming, uh, early in my life. Um, I was six years old when my father bought a computer. Uh, I was born and raised in Amman, Jordan, uh, and, uh, you know, we were the f- like, first people in, I know ever, yeah, at the time, that had a- that had a computer. And I remember-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  What year was this?
3. AMAmjad Masad
  1993. I was six years old.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Okay, so '93. So y- what kind of computer was that? Was that at, like, an old school IBM?
5. AMAmjad Masad
  IBM PC.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Ah.
7. AMAmjad Masad
  MS-DOS, Microsoft DOS.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  So you did the real deal.
11. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. I know a lot of, uh, Americans, uh, would- would, like, get a Mac-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
13. AMAmjad Masad
  ... as their first computer.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  That's what I got, yeah.
15. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, uh, no, we didn't have Ma... I actually wasn't introduced to Apple until- until kind of recently in my- in my life.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
17. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, like-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Like recently, recently?
19. AMAmjad Masad
  Like, no, like, you know, 12 years ago, 13 years ago-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow.
21. AMAmjad Masad
  ... when I moved to the US.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  God, the- Apple has such a stranglehold in America.
23. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  It's really incredible.
25. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. It's- it's amazing. But, you know, we- we didn't know much about it, so I- I got into- into DOS, and I remember one of my earliest memories is, you know, standing behind my father as he was kind of pulling up this, like, huge manual and, like, learning how to, like, type a commands, and he was like, you know, finger typing those commands.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
27. AMAmjad Masad
  And- And then I would, like, watch him, and then- and then after he leaves, I would go and, like, try those things. And one day, he caught me. He was like, "What are you doing?" Like, "I know how to do this. I'll t- I'll show you." And so I knew how to, like, start games, like, do a little of programming, do a little of scripting, and- and, you know, that's how I got into- into computers. And I- I was obsessed, and i- initially, it sort of got me into gaming. But then, you want to mod the games. Have you ever done any modding?
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Um, I've done a few things, like turn textures off-
29. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and stuff like that, and yeah.
15:21 – 17:35
What Replit is building: AI that codes for you, and ‘learning by doing’ returns
1. AMAmjad Masad
  ... such a profound feeling, and that's really kind of what I carried through my whole life and became sort of my life mission now with my company, Replit. What we do is, like, we make it so that anyone can become a programmer. Um, you just talk to your phone or your app, sort of like ChatGPT, and it starts coding for you. It's like a program software engineering agent.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Right. So it's like the- the AI guides you through it?
3. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, not only guides you through it. Uh, it codes for you. So you're- you're- you're sort of, you know- you know, programmers typically, you know- you know, think about the idea a little bit, about the logic, but most of the time, they're sort of wrangling the syntax and the IT of it all, um, and I thought that was always, you know, additional complexity that n- doesn't necessarily have to be there. And so when- when I saw, you know, AI- GPT for the first time, uh, I thought this, you know, this could potentially, like, transform programming and make it accessible to more and more people, uh, because it- it really transformed my life, you know? The reason I'm in America is because I invented a- a piece of software. Uh, and I thought, you know, if you make it available to more people, they can- they can transform their lives.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Why was your dad messing around with computers? Was he doing it for fun? Was it- This episode is brought to you by Visible. I wanna let you in on something. Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible, because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. No confusing plans with surprise fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost. With Visible, you get one line wireless with unlimited data, powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month, taxes and fees included. Seriously, $25 a month flat.What you see is what you pay. No hidden fees on top of that. Ready to see? Join now and unlock unlimited data for just $25 a month on the Visible plan. Don't think wireless can be so transparent? So visible? Well now you know! Switch today at visible.com/rogan. Terms apply, see visible.com for plan features and network management details.
17:35 – 20:49
Family history and the Nakba: Palestinian displacement and why 1948 still matters
1. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, so my dad, uh, my dad is a Palestinian refugee.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, you were telling me the story-
3. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and I, I wanna get into that-
5. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  ... 'cause it's kind of crazy. Like, put, tell m- tell the whole story of how this wound up happening.
7. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, my family is originally from, from Haifa, which is now in Israel, uh, and they were expelled as part of the 1948, uh, Nakba, uh, where-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  ... where Palestinians were, were sort of kicked out. And they went to, like f-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  How does your dad describe that? How old was he when that was going on?
11. AMAmjad Masad
  My father was born in Syria, uh, so my, uh, uh, my, uh, grandma and my grandpa and my uncles, uh, were, were, were kind of kicked out. And, and the way they would describe that is, uh, th- they, they tried to fight, they tried to, like, keep their home, but, uh, it was, like, this overwhelming force. They, they weren't organized, there wasn't, they were just, like, people. It wasn't, they didn't really have an army, at least in that, in that place. And, um, and eventually, at gunpoint, they, they took their homes and, and told them to go. Uh, if, if you're down south, you went to Gaza, and that's why, like, 70% of Gazans are refugees from Israel. Like, the, the people that are, you know, getting massacred right now, uh, are originally from Israel, from the land that we ca- that people call Israel today. Um, and then, uh, if, if you're in the north, like Haifa or Jaffa or whatever, uh, you went, you went, like, to Lebanon, you, or, or to the West Bank, or to, um, or to, to, uh, or to Jordan or Syria. So, my family went to Syria, my father was, was born in Syria, but my grandfather was a, like, a, uh, rail, uh, road engineer, uh, so, so they were, like, you know, s- they were, like, city people, they were urban. They, so they couldn't, like, l- you know, they wanted t- to, you know, have a place where, where they can, you know, there's, there's, uh, uh, they wanted to live in a city. Um, and so originally, the West Bank didn't work for them, uh, and they ended up in Syria, but then Amman, Jordan was kind of coming up and there was a lot of opportunities there, so my father was born in Syria and then moved to Amman when they were six years old and built a life there. And they really kind of focused on education and trying to kind of rebuild their life from scratch. Uh, so my father, um, and all my uncles kind of went and got educated in Egypt, Turkey, uh, places like that. And so my father, uh, uh, got an engineering degree, a civil engineering degree, uh, from, from Turkey, uh, and he was always interested in, in technology. And, uh-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs) That whole thing, we're kicking people out of Palestine is, is such an inconvenient story-
13. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  ... today, when, when people are talking about Israel and Palestine and the conflict, they, they do not like talking about what happened in 1948.
15. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, and, and I think it's important. Like, I think-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
17. AMAmjad Masad
  ... I think for us to, to reach some kind of peace, which is really hard to talk, talk about when, when, you know, you see what's happened in Gaza, even, even yesterday, you know?
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Yeah, the f- the people that were waiting for food got bombed.
19. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  It's insane. And it, no one wants to talk about it.
21. AMAmjad Masad
  Right, and, and, but, but if you-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  And if you do talk about it, you're anti-Semitic, it's, which is so strange.
23. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, I do, I don't know how they've wrangled that, how they-
20:49 – 26:05
Speaking about Gaza in tech, free speech pressure, and the ‘woke era’ backlash
1. AMAmjad Masad
  Well, it's be- it's been hard for me in, in tech, 'cause, you know, like, probably the only, you know, prominent Palestinian in tech that, that, that is talking about it. And so that's, uh-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Do you get pushback?
3. AMAmjad Masad
  Oh, of course. Lots of pushback.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, what do people say to you?
5. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, anti-Semitic, uh-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  How is it anti-Semitic?
7. AMAmjad Masad
  I, I, it criticize the state of Israel, o- our position, every moderate Palestinian that I know, their position is, like, two-state, uh, solution, we need the emergence of, uh, of the state of Palestine, you know, uh, and, and that's the best way to, ending the occupation is the best way to guarantee peace. And, um, and security, even for Israelis, um, and, um, but, but, but y- yeah, it's, it's just like it's used... It sort of reminds me, you know, in t- in tech we went through this, like, quote-unquote "woke" period where you couldn't talk about certain things as well.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  Um, and, uh-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Has that gone away?
11. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah?
13. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, totally gone away. Yeah.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  What do you, what do you think caused it to go away?
15. AMAmjad Masad
  Um, Elon.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  D- really?
17. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, like Twitter, buying Twitter.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
19. AMAmjad Masad
  Buying Twitter is the single most impactful thing for free speech, uh, especially on, on these issues, um, of, of being able to, you know, um, talk, talk freely about a lot of subjects that are more sensitive. Um-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Imagine if he didn't buy it.
21. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. I mean, that would've been-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Imagine if the same ownership was in place and they, and then Harris wins-
23. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and they continue to ramp things up.
25. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, I don't know what, what you think of, uh, of, of the new, new administration. I, certainly there are things that I like about and s- some of their pro-tech, uh, you know, posture and, and things like that, but, you know, what's happening now is, you know, it's kind of disappointing on a-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  It's insane.
27. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  It, it, ev- we were s- told there would be no w- there's two things that are insane. One is the targeting of migrant workers. Not cartel members, not gang members, not d- d- drug dealers.
29. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Just construction workers.
26:05 – 38:36
Managerial society, founder mode, DOGE accountability, and government incompetence
1. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. D- do you know this, uh, uh, this, like, theory, I, I know you, you've had Marc Andreessen, uh, on the show. This, uh, James Burnham managerial revolution theory?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  No, not, not by him.
3. AMAmjad Masad
  I'm, I'm not an expert by it, but, like, the idea is that, um, like, communism, fascism, uh, uh, and, and even some form of capitalism that sort of we're living under right now is like managerialism, is the idea that, you know, capital, capitalism used to be this idea that the, um, the owner, founders of those companies of, you know, uh, capitalist companies were running them, um, and, uh, and it was like, uh, it was like true capitalism of sorts. But, uh, both, uh, you know, communism and fascism, uh, share this property of, uh, centralized control and, like, a class of people that are sort of managerial. So maybe those are the elites that have Ivy, Ivy League students that are trained to be managers and, and, and they, they grow up in the system kind of bred to become, uh, like managers of these companies. And today's America is, like, trending that way where it is like a managerial society.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
5. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, in Silicon Valley there's, like, a reaction to that right now, uh, people call it founder mode, where a lot of founders felt like they were losing control of their companies because they're hiring all these managers and these managers are running the companies like you would run, um, Citibank. And, and then, uh, you know, a lot of founders were like, "No, we need to, we need to run those companies like we built them."
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
7. AMAmjad Masad
  And Elon is, like, obviously at the forefront of that.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, I once, uh, visited, uh, xAI when they were just starting out, uh, Elon's AI company, uh, and they were like 70 people. All of them reported to Elon. They didn't have a single manager on staff.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
11. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, and they would send him an email every week, uh, was like, what had, what did you get done this week?
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Right. Well, that was the outrageous thing that they asked people to do at Doge.
13. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, yeah (laughs) . That's-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  And people were freaking out. Five minutes a week, what, what are the things you accomplished this week? How ... You know, he said, "All you have to do is respond."
15. AMAmjad Masad
  Right.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  And they didn't want ... They pushed back so hard-
17. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... on being accountable for their work.
19. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  But that's government for you.
21. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, I mean-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, I mean, government is the grossest, most incompetent form of business.
23. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  You know? Because-
25. AMAmjad Masad
  It's a monopoly.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, it's complete, total monopoly.
27. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, the way he described some of the, um, things that they found at Doge, it's like you could never run a business that way.
29. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm-hmm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause not only would it not be profitable, the fraud would get you arrested.
38:36 – 48:59
Consciousness, psychedelics, and why “drugs” is a broken category
1. AMAmjad Masad
  For now. Uh, definitely for now. I don't know forever. Um, actually one of my favorite, uh, Jari, uh, episodes was, uh, Roger Penrose. Do, do you remember him?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
3. AMAmjad Masad
  So do you remember the argument, uh, that he made about why humans are special? He, he said something like, um, he believes there are things that are true that only humans can know it's true, but machines cannot prove it's true. Um, it's based on, uh, Godel's, uh, incompleteness theorem.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
5. AMAmjad Masad
  And, and the idea is that you can construct a mathematical system where, uh, it, it, it can, um, where it has a, a paradoxical statement. Uh, so for example, you can say, um, G, uh, well, like you can say this statement is not provable in, in the machine. Or like the machine cannot prove this statement. Um, and so if the machine, uh, proves the statement, then that statement is false. So you have a paradox. Uh, and therefore, the, the statement, uh, is sort of true from the, uh, perspective of an observer, like a human, but, uh, but it is not provable in this system. So Roger Penrose says these paradoxes that are, uh, not really resolved in mathematics and, and machines are, are no problem for humans. And therefore, his sort of like a bit of a leap is that, uh, th- therefore there's something special about humans and we're not fundamentally a computer.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
7. AMAmjad Masad
  Um...
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Right. That makes sense. I mean, whatever creativity is, whatever allows you to make poetry or jazz or literature, like whatever, whatever allows you to imagine something and then put it together and edit it and figure out how it resonates correctly with both you and whoever you're trying to distribute it to, there's something to us that's different.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  I mean, we don't really have a theory of consciousness, and I think it's like sort of hubris to think that, um, that like consciousness just like emerges. And it's plausible, like I'm not totally, you know, against this idea that you, you built a sufficiently intelligent thing and suddenly it is conscious. Uh, but, but there's no, there's no... It's, it's like a religious belief, um, that, that a lot of Silicon Valley have is that, you know, there's, um, you know, consciousness is, is just like a, um, side effect of, of intelligence. Um, or that consciousness is, is not needed for intelligence. Uh, somehow it's like this super, uh, superfluous thing. And they try not to think or talk about consciousness because actually consciousness is hard. Uh-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Hard to define.
11. AMAmjad Masad
  Hard to define, hard to understand scientifically. It's what, uh, I think Chalmers calls the hard problem of, of consciousness. Um, but, but, you know, I th- I think it is something we need to grapple with. We, we have...One example of, uh, general intelligence, which is human beings, and human beings have very important property that we can all feel, which is consciousness. And that property, we don't know how it happens, how it emerges. People like Roger Penrose are like, um, uh, you know, they have, they have these, uh, theories about quantum mechanics and microtubule- tubules? I don't know if you got- got into that with him, but, um, uh, I think he has a collaborator, uh, his- his neuroscientist, uh, Hameroff, I think, or something like that. Um, and, uh, but- but people have so many the- I'm not talking- I'm not saying Penrose is- is- uh, just has the answers, but th- th- like, it's something that philosophers have grappled with forever. And, um, there are a lot of, uh, there are a lot of interesting theories. Like the- there's this theory that, uh, consciousness is- is primary, meaning like the material world is a projection of our collective consciousness.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
13. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, that is a very confusing but interesting theory. And then there's the- there's a lot of theories that everything is conscious. We just don't have the ability to interact with it. You know, Sheldrake has a very strange view of consciousness.
15. AMAmjad Masad
  Who's Sheldrake?
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Rupert Sheldrake.
17. AMAmjad Masad
  I don't know.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Um, his- (sighs) he's got this concept, I think it's called morphic resonance. And see if you can f- find that so you could- so we could define it so I don't butcher it. But there's people that believe that consciousness itself is something that everything has and that we are just tuning into it. "Morphic resonance, the theory proposed by Rupert Sheldrake suggests that all natural systems, from crystals to human, inherit a collective memory of the past instances of similar systems. This memory influences their form and behavior, making nature more habitual than governed by fixed laws. Essentially, past patterns and behaviors of organisms influence present ones through connections across time and space."
19. AMAmjad Masad
  That is wild. And- and is he- is he a scientist or is this-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
21. AMAmjad Masad
  ... more- more like a new age-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  What is his exact background? Harvard.
23. AMAmjad Masad
  Oh, wow.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
25. AMAmjad Masad
  Okay.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  So he's a, uh, parapsychology researcher, "proposed the concept of morphic resonance, a conjecture that lacks mainstream acceptance, has been widely criticized by- as pseudoscience." Of course.
27. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Anything interesting. (laughs)
29. AMAmjad Masad
  That- that sounds interesting though. Yeah, but-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
48:59 – 1:13:02
COVID, vaccines, institutional incentives, and fraud in science publishing
1. AMAmjad Masad
  Have you heard... I don't know if it's true, but have you heard of, um, uh, mushrooms healing long COVID?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  I don't know what long COVID means, because everybody I've talked to that has long COVID was also vaccinated.
3. AMAmjad Masad
  Um-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  I think long COVID is vaccine injury, that's what I think. The, I think, in a lot of cases.
5. AMAmjad Masad
  Well, so there's, there is such a thing as like the post-viral, uh, malaise or, or effect. It's always been there-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Sure.
7. AMAmjad Masad
  ... uh-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, there's a detrimental effect that it has to your overall biological health, right?
9. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, your overall metabolic health. But what, what causes someone to not rebound from that, and what causes someone to rebound fairly easily? Well, mostly it's metabolic health, you know, other than like extreme biological variabilities, vulnerabilities that certain people have to different things-
11. AMAmjad Masad
  Mm, mm-hmm.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you know, obviously.
13. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. Maybe that's why, I think, uh, so there's a lot of these long COVID protocols. Metformin is usually part of it.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
15. AMAmjad Masad
  So maybe that's... that acts on your metab- met- metabolic system.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, yeah. Metformin is one of the anti-aging protocols that Sinclair uses and all of these other people that are into a- anti-aging movement.
17. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. You know, I, uh, I had this like weird thing happen, uh, where I started like feeling fatigued, uh, like a couple, few years ago. And I would like sleep, uh, hours, and the more I sleep, the more tired I get in the morning.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you get blood work done?
19. AMAmjad Masad
  I got blood work done, and I, uh... there were some things about it that, um, that I needed to fix, and I fixed all of them. Um, l-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Like what was off?
21. AMAmjad Masad
  ... lost, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, you know, blood sugar in the morning, um, the cholesterol, uh, which I, I don't know, some people don't believe, but... But, you know, all my numbers got better. Vitamin D, everything got better. But, uh, and, and I could feel-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Did the fatigue get better?
23. AMAmjad Masad
  No, I could feel marginal improvement, but the fatigue did not, did not get better. Um, and-
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Were you vaccinated?
25. AMAmjad Masad
  No.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  No.
27. AMAmjad Masad
  Nah, uh-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Good for you.
29. AMAmjad Masad
  (laughs)
30. JRJoe Rogan
  That's hard to do in Silicon Valley.
1:13:02 – 1:39:30
Truth-finding tools, bots, and the next social media interface (group chats + AI curation)
1. AMAmjad Masad
  Right. Sometimes I think about if there's, like, you know, some kind of technology solution, or not solution, but, like, we can get technology, um, built to help better aid at truth finding. Um, y- a simple example of that is the way, um, Twitter community notes work.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. AMAmjad Masad
  Do you know how they work?
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, yeah.
5. AMAmjad Masad
  It's like, uh, they, you know, um, they find the users that are maximally divergent in their opinions and if they agree on some note as true, then that is a high signal that it's potentially true.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
7. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, so if you, if you and I disagree on everything, but we agree that this, this is blue, then it's more likely to be blue. Um, so, uh, you know, I, I wonder if, you know, there, there's a way to kind of simulate m- maybe debate using AI. You know, I'm not sure if you used, uh, Deep Research. Deep Research is this new trend in AI where ChatGPT has it, Claude has it, Perplexity, they all have it, um, where you put in a query and the AI will go work for 20 minutes and it'll send you a notification and it'll just say, "Hey, um, I looked at all these things, all these reports, all these scientific studies, and here is, here's everything that I, that I found." And, um, i- i- it, you know, early on in ChatGPT, I think there was, like, a lot of, uh, censorship in trying to because it, it kind of was, was built in the, in the, in the, in the great woke era.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
9. AMAmjad Masad
  But, but I think-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Like Google Gemini.
11. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah, things like that. But I think since then have, uh, have improved and I'm finding Deep Research is able to look at more controversial subjects and, and be a little more truthful, uh, about, um, the, um, you know, if it's find real, you know, trustworthy sources, it will tell you d- you know, um, that, yeah, this is not a mainstream thing, this perhaps considered a conspiracy theory, but I'm finding that, you know, there's evidence to, to, to this, this theory. Uh, so that's one way to do it. But another way I was thinking about is to simulate, like a, like a debate, like a Socratic debate between AIs, like have, uh, like a, you know, society of AIs, like a community of AIs with different biases, different things.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
13. AMAmjad Masad
  And just like-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  And like, once they start talking, they start talking in Sanskrit.
15. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah. (laughs)
16. JRJoe Rogan
  They just start abandoning English language and start talking to each other and realize we're all apes. (laughs)
17. AMAmjad Masad
  I, I, I-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  We're controlled by apes.
19. AMAmjad Masad
  This reminds me of a movie. Did, have you seen The Forbin Project?
20. JRJoe Rogan
  No.
21. AMAmjad Masad
  I really like classic sci-fi movies, like from the '60s and '70s.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah.
23. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, a lot of them are corny, but still fun. Uh, this one is basically, uh, Soviet Union and the United States are both building AGI, uh, and they both arrive at AGI around the same time.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  What year is this?
25. AMAmjad Masad
  1970-something, if you get looking for The Forbin Project.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
27. AMAmjad Masad
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
29. AMAmjad Masad
  Uh, and then, um, and then, and then they bring it up at the same time and both of them sort of go over the network to kind of explore or whatever, and then they start, uh, link- linking up and they start kind of talking, and then they invent a language and they start talking in that language and then they merge and it becomes, uh, like a sort of a universal AGI and it tries to enslave, uh, humanity and that's like a-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Of course.

Episode duration: 2:52:03

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Counter-Strike roots, pro-gaming discipline, and why games can be “training”

Gaming improves real-world performance: surgeons, the military, and dexterity

From playing to watching: streaming, TikTok attention traps, and “dull dopamine”

Drugs, self-control, and Silicon Valley’s shift away from alcohol

Quitting drinking and building discipline: cold plunge, sauna, and controllable habits

Early computers in Jordan: DOS, modding games, and programming as a ‘gateway drug’

What Replit is building: AI that codes for you, and ‘learning by doing’ returns

Family history and the Nakba: Palestinian displacement and why 1948 still matters

Speaking about Gaza in tech, free speech pressure, and the ‘woke era’ backlash

Managerial society, founder mode, DOGE accountability, and government incompetence

Consciousness, psychedelics, and why “drugs” is a broken category

COVID, vaccines, institutional incentives, and fraud in science publishing

Truth-finding tools, bots, and the next social media interface (group chats + AI curation)

Get more out of YouTube videos.