Joe Rogan Experience #2346 - Jim Lampley

Jim Lampley 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Oh, really? That was your closest male friend?

Jim Lampley 0:15 Unexpected.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Yeah?

Jim Lampley 0:16 Unexpected, but over a period of time, we just got closer and closer and closer, and, you know, very brotherly. And the last public appearance Emanuel ever made was my wedding in September of 2012. And that night, the wedding was at our house in Del Mar, California, and that night he, uh, his girlfriend came to me and said, "We have to leave early. Emanuel's having stomach pains." He was in oncology by the next week.

Joe Rogan 0:50 (groans)

Jim Lampley 0:50 He was gone by three weeks later.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Oh.

Jim Lampley 0:53 So, very touching to me, and, you know, deeply symbolic of my love for him, and thus the Kronk hat.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Yeah. What a classic gem. And he was one of the first guys to realize, like if you crank the heat up, it actually gives guys better conditioning.

Jim Lampley 1:10 He realized a lot of things.

Joe Rogan 1:11 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:11 And he, uh, Emanuel was a genius, uh, in a lot of ways. And there were a lot of, um, sort of time-honored rules and techniques in boxing that he quietly upended.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:26 You know? Because he was more advanced in his point of view and thought processes.

Joe Rogan 1:31 And then everybody else sort of followed his lead.

Jim Lampley 1:33 Once they understood-

Joe Rogan 1:34 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:34 ... what he was doing.

Joe Rogan 1:35 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:35 Once you, if you, if you saw the McCrorys and Tommy-

Joe Rogan 1:38 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:38 ... and those guys-

Joe Rogan 1:40 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:40 ... why wouldn't you imitate, right?

Joe Rogan 1:41 Right, right. Exactly, yeah. No, he was a-

Jim Lampley 1:43 And he did it at both the amateur and pro level too.

Joe Rogan 1:46 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:46 You know? So...

Joe Rogan 1:47 And he was always fantastic too as a commentator, because he would give insight that you're really not gonna get from someone that's not, like with these fighters day in, day out, through an entire camp. He really understood things.

Jim Lampley 1:58 But when you consider the privilege I had, the expert commentators I work with, starting with Ray.

Joe Rogan 2:06 Yes.

Jim Lampley 2:07 That's one perspective. Then gravitating through George Foreman and Roy Jones. Emanuel's in there.

Joe Rogan 2:19 Yes.

Jim Lampley 2:19 And to me, he was the best. I agree with you. The public responded more to Roy and Ray-

Joe Rogan 2:26 Of course.

Jim Lampley 2:26 You know.

Joe Rogan 2:26 Famous guys.

Jim Lampley 2:27 Because of their stardom.

Joe Rogan 2:28 Yes.

Jim Lampley 2:28 Et cetera. But...

Joe Rogan 2:29 And they were really good too.

Jim Lampley 2:31 And they were good.

Joe Rogan 2:32 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 2:32 But Emanuel taught me more, you know.

Joe Rogan 2:34 Interesting.

Jim Lampley 2:34 Because he was totally well-rounded.

Joe Rogan 2:37 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 2:38 As a human being as well as as a, um, boxing trainer.

Joe Rogan 2:42 I was very pleased to hear you back on the microphone for that Times Square event.

Jim Lampley 2:47 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 2:48 'Cause it'd been so long, you know?

Jim Lampley 2:50 Six plus years.

Joe Rogan 2:50 God, I was like, "That's crazy." It didn't make any sense. You were the best in the business, HBO was the best in the business, and when they stepped away from boxing, I was really heartbroken. I could-

Jim Lampley 3:00 Well, if, if, if you look at what happened, we go from situation where, um, the television networks have the authority and the, uh, self-belief to choose the commentators the way they want to.

Joe Rogan 3:20 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 3:20 And then you get into a more subdivided and, um, widely disparate marketplace, and now the star promoters have a great deal more influence than you would have thought before. And now the star promoters start getting involved in, um, influencing who's on the air.

Joe Rogan 3:39 Ah.

Jim Lampley 3:40 So PBC, um, Mayweather was never a fan. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:48 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 3:48 I mean, we got along, but he, you know, he would absolutely-

Joe Rogan 3:51 Was this famous thing with Larry.

Jim Lampley 3:53 Well...

Joe Rogan 3:53 Larry Merchant.

Jim Lampley 3:54 And, and I guess he associated me with Larry, which makes-

Joe Rogan 3:56 Unfortunately.

Jim Lampley 3:56 ... all the sense in the world.

Joe Rogan 3:58 Kind of, but you weren't nearly as critical.

Jim Lampley 4:01 I was just the blow-by-blow guy.

Joe Rogan 4:03 Right.

Jim Lampley 4:03 I'm not an expert commentator, you know?

Joe Rogan 4:05 Right, right.

Jim Lampley 4:06 So I tried very hard, not always easy, but I tried very hard never to go over the line into doing what the experts were supposed to do.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Right. No, you were excellent at that. It just, uh, it didn't make any sense to me that, you know... And, and Kellerman, he's also excellent, is another guy we should bring on.

Jim Lampley 4:22 And now he's back.

Joe Rogan 4:23 Yes. It's nice. And Andre Ward is another excellent guy.

Jim Lampley 4:26 Totally.

Joe Rogan 4:26 It just, uh, the, the good thing about boxing was that HBO was completely independent from these promoters. And s-

Jim Lampley 4:34 And the bad thing about boxing is that the fighters don't get paid as much on the undercard fights and don't get paid as much coming up, as is the case in the more broadly organized UFC universe.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Yes.

Jim Lampley 4:47 Right?

Joe Rogan 4:47 Yeah, there's a difference. Yeah, there's a giant difference in the undercard pay, but then-

Jim Lampley 4:51 I learned that from Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan 4:53 Ha ha!

Jim Lampley 4:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:54 Yeah. Well, the UFC treats the entire, uh, card as a, an enormous event. So they have elite fighters fight in the entire card. It's not top-heavy. Like one of the problems with boxing is you would just say, "When's the main event? When is Canelo fighting?" And you didn't... The, the other stuff was just nonsense. Whereas the UFC, you look at like, "Oh, look who's fighting first fight of pay-per-view." There's five fights on pay-per-view. First fight of pay-per-view is a banger, and everybody's, the, the seats are packed and everybody's excited to see it. Whereas everybody starts shuffling in about 20 minutes before Canelo fights in a, one of these big boxing events. That I think is kind of unfortunate, you know?

Jim Lampley 5:33 I da- I, I totally agree.

Joe Rogan 5:34 And a little bit shortsighted.

Jim Lampley 5:35 And I, I accede to your point of view, because, and I've made this point before, I'm not a UFC expert. Any comment I make about UFC is, um, atmospheric, but it's not expertly informed. I didn't have the bandwidth for that.

Joe Rogan 5:54 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 5:54 I was trying to be knowledgeable out...... about every single tributary and every single meaningless pocket in the boxing world. And-

Joe Rogan 6:02 That's a lot.

Jim Lampley 6:03 That's a lot.

Joe Rogan 6:03 That's a lot to follow.

Jim Lampley 6:04 You know, and it took time.

Joe Rogan 6:05 Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Lampley 6:06 And, and frankly, you know, I decided it would be distracting to me to try to keep up with two combat sports at once.

Joe Rogan 6:13 Right.

Jim Lampley 6:13 This is the one where I make my living. This is the one where the audience identifies me. This is the one that's on HBO.

Joe Rogan 6:21 Yes.

Jim Lampley 6:22 And I, and I know that Dana, in particular, um, is said by some to have been quite upset that he had a deal with HBO and the deal with HBO went away. Th- if that's the case, and I don't know, I'm very sorry to hear it, um, because I think it would've been good for both if UFC had been on HBO.

Joe Rogan 6:45 I think so as well. I mean, HBO at that time was the premier network for combat sports. The work-

Jim Lampley 6:51 For sure.

Joe Rogan 6:51 The work that you guys had done in boxing was the top of the food chain. It was the best.

Jim Lampley 6:55 Well, Larry Merchant, Ray Leonard, George Foreman-

Joe Rogan 6:58 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 6:58 ... Roy Jones.

Joe Rogan 6:59 It's also the production-

Jim Lampley 6:59 Emmanuel Stewart.

Joe Rogan 7:00 ... everything was on point. It was just so well-honed.

Jim Lampley 7:03 Good production.

Joe Rogan 7:04 Yes. It was just a, a well-polished machine. One of the issues is they wanted to replace the commentators, HBO did.

Jim Lampley 7:11 Oh, they did?

Joe Rogan 7:12 Yeah. So if we came over there, I wouldn't go over there as well. So, yeah.

Jim Lampley 7:15 Oh, re- yeah, because HBO was always about their own producer autonomy.

Joe Rogan 7:19 Yes.

Jim Lampley 7:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:20 So they wanted to have control.

Jim Lampley 7:20 "We don't want anybody telling us what to do."

Joe Rogan 7:23 Exactly.

Jim Lampley 7:24 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:24 The problem with that is in mixed martial arts, there's a very small pool of people who have a deep understanding of the entire history of the sport.

Jim Lampley 7:33 Yep.

Joe Rogan 7:34 And you can't just hire a regular sports guy to take that part. They, they're not going to be able to get it.

Jim Lampley 7:40 Well, going back to the developmental stages, um, and I try very hard not to use the word unique, it's massively overused in American society, sports media have beaten it to death, it means only one like this on the whole planet, but you were unique, uh, in those days because you had the full knowledge of UFC and you also knew some stuff about boxing. So, I thi- I think you were not just unusual, but unique.

Joe Rogan 8:10 Well, all I was doing was just following my interests and I've always been a huge boxing fan from the time I was a child. I was an-

Jim Lampley 8:18 Can you remember what your first fight was?

Joe Rogan 8:20 The first fight I watched, my parents watched it, which was crazy because my parents were hippies, and they were really interested in Ali's rematch with Leon Spinks.

Jim Lampley 8:31 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:32 Because Leon-

Jim Lampley 8:32 New Orleans.

Joe Rogan 8:33 Yeah. When Leon had beat Muhammad Ali, because Muhammad Ali was, he was a cultural icon as much as he was a sports figure.

Jim Lampley 8:42 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:42 And-

Jim Lampley 8:42 I mean, like, multiply that by 100, you know, to, to get to where he was.

Joe Rogan 8:47 He was very, very unique and his, his opposition to the Vietnam War made him a hero to many Americans.

Jim Lampley 8:55 Well, I always say, um, he was my childhood hero and he was my childhood hero as Cassius Clay. The very first live prize fight I ever attended was Cassius Clay versus Sonny Liston, February 25, 1964 in Miami Beach.

Joe Rogan 9:13 Oh, you were there for the first fight?

Jim Lampley 9:15 I saved lawn mowing and car washing money for months-

Joe Rogan 9:18 Wow.

Jim Lampley 9:18 ... to buy a ticket that, in my memory, was $100, but I don't really know for sure what the cost of that ticket was. I didn't save it. It would be worth millions now. Um...

Joe Rogan 9:30 Can you imagine?

Jim Lampley 9:30 And my mother took me, my mother took me over from our crappy Southwest Miami tract house rental, uh, and dropped me off at the Miami Beach Convention Center, and then came and picked me up afterward.

Joe Rogan 9:41 Wow.

Jim Lampley 9:41 And I, I went in alone. Uh, and that was the first live-

Joe Rogan 9:45 How old were you?

Jim Lampley 9:46 I was 14.

Joe Rogan 9:47 14.

Jim Lampley 9:48 It was the first live prize fight I had ever attended. It was all about my hero worship for Cassius Clay.

Joe Rogan 9:55 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 9:55 Two days later, he stands on Brickell Avenue in Miami and tells two reporters that he's a follower of the Nation of Islam, and now his name is Muhammad Ali. And I'm in shock, okay? "What do you mean?" I'm y- "You're Cassius Clay, you can't."

Joe Rogan 10:12 Right.

Jim Lampley 10:12 And so I, nowadays I say, "The lesson he taught me then was a man's identity is his own."

Joe Rogan 10:20 Yes.

Jim Lampley 10:20 And it does not matter how much I love him or cherish him or feel connected to him, he has the right to say who he is. I mean, back in those days, "Islam, what is that?"

Joe Rogan 10:31 Right. Right.

Jim Lampley 10:32 You know? (laughs) I had no clue. But, you know, he, he got over with me on that one, I understood it was his right. Then he taught me my stance on the Vietnam War.

Joe Rogan 10:44 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 10:44 My mother was double widow of two United States military heroes. I grew up with a basement filled to the gills with memorabilia from their tours of duty as B20, B17, B24 and, and B29 pilots in World War II. So there was nationalistic and patriotic material all over my household.

Joe Rogan 11:11 Wow.

Jim Lampley 11:12 And when Ali said what he said about Vietcom, I mean, about Vietnam, that moved the meter for me in that regard. And I understood. And eventually, eventually my mother said, "You'll go to Canada before I'll ever allow you to accede to being drafted into the army and going to Vietnam." Because her thought was that it was a pointless war.

Joe Rogan 11:38 Yeah. And she was correct. Yeah.

Jim Lampley 11:40 She was right.

Joe Rogan 11:41 Yeah. And they took three years of his prime, that's what's crazy. I always point to the Cleveland Big Cat Williams fight.

Jim Lampley 11:47 That was his best.

Joe Rogan 11:48 Yes.

Jim Lampley 11:49 You're totally right. That was his number one performance, and he was never 100% the same after that.

Joe Rogan 11:55 Imagine.

Jim Lampley 11:56 But he still had his mind.

Joe Rogan 11:57 Yes, but he didn't train for three years. That's part of the problem.

Jim Lampley 12:01 Of course.

Joe Rogan 12:01 And, you know, at 30 years old, in that day and age, it was just a different world.

Jim Lampley 12:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:05 Like, you, you don't train for three years-

Jim Lampley 12:08 Not as much knowledge of nutrition.

Joe Rogan 12:09 Right.

Jim Lampley 12:10 Not as much knowledge of training techniques.

Joe Rogan 12:12 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 12:12 You know, the old-fashioned stuff-

Joe Rogan 12:15 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 12:15 ... in Deer Lake, Pennsylvania, uh, not the same as now. No hyperbaric chamber.

Joe Rogan 12:21 Right, right, right.

Jim Lampley 12:22 (laughs) Et cetera, et cetera.

Joe Rogan 12:23 Yeah, just... They just robbed him. They robbed us too, 'cause he became back and he's a different fighter then. He was much more easy to hit. And, you know, he became... You know, he relied on his chin more and, you know, just he didn't have the fleet of foot movement that he had before then. The conditioning-

Jim Lampley 12:38 But he found a way to rise to the top again.

Joe Rogan 12:40 Yes, he did. Wow.

Jim Lampley 12:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:42 The championship mind was always there. But God, it's-

Jim Lampley 12:44 That's 100% correct.

Joe Rogan 12:45 But as a fan of boxing, it drives me crazy 'cause you imagine what we could have seen in those three years if Ali had never been robbed, never took his title away, and allowed him to fight all those guys like Joe Frazier, George Foreman, all those guys with keeping the same skills that he had when he was younger.

Jim Lampley 13:04 But... A- and I think you're 100% correct, Joe. But isn't it, in a perverse way, a part of his mystique?

Joe Rogan 13:11 Yes.

Jim Lampley 13:12 The fact that he was able to come back from those three and a half years off, the fact that he was able to rise to the top again, the fact that he was able to beat Foreman the way he beat Foreman.

Joe Rogan 13:23 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 13:23 And beat Frazier in the third fight-

Joe Rogan 13:25 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 13:26 ... in the kind of fight you would never have imagined him being in.

Joe Rogan 13:29 Right.

Jim Lampley 13:29 All these things combine to create the unique mystique of Muhammad Ali.

Joe Rogan 13:35 Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And then, also, the tragic ending. You know, the, the staying in too long and too many beatings. You know, the, the, the just the seeing him at the end of his life was just so horrible, you know? And we all know that that was trauma-induced. We all know that, and it's just... It was just sad to see.

Jim Lampley 13:55 We haven't seen that yet in MMA, right?

Joe Rogan 13:57 No, not quite, but w- you're seeing some damage. You're, you're, you're seeing some guys that are really struggling. You know, you just... They're not as public, so you're not seeing it from a Georges St-Pierre or someone like that. Georges is one of the very unique former champions who has all of his wits, his faculties, retired as champion, very healthy.

Jim Lampley 14:18 Roy Jones.

Joe Rogan 14:19 Roy Jones is a good example.

Jim Lampley 14:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:20 And Roy, you know, Roy famously, after Gerald McClellan was hurt win the Nigel Benn fight, he was r- really concerned because N- M- G- Gerald McClellan was the guy that a lot of people thought was a giant threat to Roy.

Jim Lampley 14:33 For a long period of time when Roy and I were working together, he was providing helpful financial support to McClellan's sisters, who were caring for Gerald.

Joe Rogan 14:45 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 14:45 And, you know, keeping alive, uh, on a daily basis, I think, in Illinois or Ohio, some place like that.

Joe Rogan 14:54 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 14:54 But, uh, yeah, Roy loved all other fighters, and he did what he could to help with McClellan.

Joe Rogan 15:03 I know that that loss that McClellan had and the subsequent medical issues, the stroke and the aneurysm, all that stuff, uh, really disturbed Roy and made him think, you know, about getting out early.

Jim Lampley 15:15 100%. Yeah. 'Cause, 'cause Roy was nothing if not smart.

Joe Rogan 15:21 Right.

Jim Lampley 15:21 Roy was brilliant, okay?

Joe Rogan 15:23 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 15:23 And Roy very assertively fought in a style that would limit harm.

Joe Rogan 15:29 Wow, it's awesome.

Jim Lampley 15:29 He didn't want to get hurt.

Joe Rogan 15:30 His gifts. I mean, what a, what a guy. Like who else in recent memory lead with left hooks?

Jim Lampley 15:36 Well, there's heavyweight boxing and then there's weight class boxing. Ali is the unique physical specimen in heavyweight boxing.

Joe Rogan 15:42 Right.

Jim Lampley 15:43 Roy is the unique physical specimen in weight class boxing.

Joe Rogan 15:47 Right.

Jim Lampley 15:47 You know? And, and-

Joe Rogan 15:48 So much so that he actually won the heavyweight title.

Jim Lampley 15:50 Well-

Joe Rogan 15:51 Which is crazy. Crazy.

Jim Lampley 15:51 Exactly right. Whatever he wanted to do, if he put his mind to it-

Joe Rogan 15:55 Right.

Jim Lampley 15:55 ... he could do that, you know? And, and, um, a part of the ongoing cliché was he could play any sport. You know, he could be great in football, basketball, baseball, et cetera, et cetera.

Joe Rogan 16:06 Right.

Jim Lampley 16:06 And, of course, he did go through the theatrics of playing a basketball game-

Joe Rogan 16:11 Yes.

Jim Lampley 16:11 ... on the same day that he fought a fight.

Joe Rogan 16:13 Which was so crazy.

Jim Lampley 16:14 It was. It was insane.

Joe Rogan 16:15 It was so crazy.

Jim Lampley 16:16 But that was... His talent was insane.

Joe Rogan 16:18 But it was also like he was just showing people. He was kind of playing with his food. He's like, "I'm gonna play a basketball game and then go and easily win a fight, same night." Bananas.

Jim Lampley 16:28 It's interesting you used the phrase "playing with his food." Um-

Joe Rogan 16:31 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 16:31 And I like it. Roy liked to play with his food. (laughs) I mean-

Joe Rogan 16:34 (laughs) It gets to a certain level.

Jim Lampley 16:36 ... and sometimes you do things because you can.

Joe Rogan 16:38 Right.

Jim Lampley 16:39 He knew what he could do.

Joe Rogan 16:40 Right.

Jim Lampley 16:41 So.

Joe Rogan 16:42 Yeah. I mean, his speed was so preposterous. When he would forgo the jab to lead with left hooks, which was just so crazy.

Jim Lampley 16:50 When he stood against the ropes in Miami, against Glenn Kelly-

Joe Rogan 16:54 Yes.

Jim Lampley 16:54 ... and put both hands-

Joe Rogan 16:55 Yes. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 16:55 ... behind his back, and made Kelly miss, miss, and then hit him with one straight hand and knocked him out.

Joe Rogan 17:01 Yes.

Jim Lampley 17:01 That's Roy Jones.

Joe Rogan 17:02 Oh, it was incredible. How about the Vinny Pazienza fight when he didn't get hit for the entire round?

Jim Lampley 17:08 Yep.

Joe Rogan 17:08 The only round in CompuBox history where someone never got hit.

Jim Lampley 17:12 Yep.

Joe Rogan 17:12 It was crazy.

Jim Lampley 17:13 And I was with Roy at the International Boxing Hall of Fame induction ceremony few weeks ago, and we were talking about exactly that. You know, uh, we were, you know, talking about Pazienza, and I said, "Is he the guy that you shut out for a round?" And he said, "Yeah."

Joe Rogan 17:27 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 17:27 "Uh, and I just... I did it just 'cause I wanted to do it."

Joe Rogan 17:30 This episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. Ditch the weak coffee. Black Rifle Coffee is bold, fresh, and roasted right here in the USA. No bitter aftertaste. No BS. They've got it all. Whole bean, ground, K-Cups, ready to drink, even killer merch that doesn't suck. Every order supports veterans and first responders, so your caffeine fix-... actually does some good. Hit up blackriflecoffee.com/jrogan, use the code ROGAN, get 30% off. Black Rifle Coffee, America's coffee. Yeah, well, he was just so far above so many of the guys that he fought. They just had no business being in there.

Jim Lampley 18:10 That he had to create competition-

Joe Rogan 18:12 Yes.

Jim Lampley 18:12 ... by doing stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 18:13 He had to have fun.

Jim Lampley 18:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:14 He had to play with his food. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 18:15 That's right. (laughs) Well said.

Joe Rogan 18:18 Yeah. No, he was spectacular. He, you know, he was one of those guys that's a unique, once-in-a-lifetime talent that, w- unfortunately, though, his mistake was going up to heavyweight and then trying to go down to 175, which is unbelievably grueling 'cause he was, when he was 200 pounds at heavyweight, he was 200 lean, muscular, fast pounds. There was not, like, fat to lose and so to starve himself to get down to 175, like, he was diminished, and you saw that in the Tarver fight.

Jim Lampley 18:52 I'm not here to feather your nest, but you're brilliant. That's 100% correct.

Joe Rogan 18:56 Yeah, if I was in, if I was his friend-

Jim Lampley 18:58 Uh, and he lamented it afterward because he understood-

Joe Rogan 19:01 Ugh.

Jim Lampley 19:01 ... how he had penalized himself in that way.

Joe Rogan 19:04 25 pounds is so much weight to lose-

Jim Lampley 19:06 Well-

Joe Rogan 19:06 ... lean muscle mass.

Jim Lampley 19:07 And, and you made the point, when it's muscle-

Joe Rogan 19:09 Muscle.

Jim Lampley 19:10 If it's fat-

Joe Rogan 19:11 Right.

Jim Lampley 19:11 ... you can go into the steam room and sweat it off.

Joe Rogan 19:14 Right, right.

Jim Lampley 19:14 But once it's muscle-

Joe Rogan 19:16 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 19:16 ... it's there, you know?

Joe Rogan 19:18 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 19:18 And it, it's, it's a part of the structure. It's a part of the building.

Joe Rogan 19:21 Yep.

Jim Lampley 19:21 Now, how are you gonna rip it out, you know?

Joe Rogan 19:23 Well, not only that, it diminishes his endurance. It diminishes... Durability gets compromised 'cause he can't take a punch as well 'cause you cut so much weight.

Jim Lampley 19:31 It gets to his confidence.

Joe Rogan 19:32 Yes.

Jim Lampley 19:33 And his confidence was unshakable.

Joe Rogan 19:35 Every... Right, it was everything.

Jim Lampley 19:36 You know? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:36 Like, when you go into the fight fatigued-

Jim Lampley 19:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:39 ... you're feeling fatigued and then you've got a guy like Tarver, who's infinitely talented and has legitimate knockout power and is talking shit to you-

Jim Lampley 19:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 19:47 ... right before the fight. "Got any excuses tonight, Roy?"

Jim Lampley 19:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:49 Remember that? And then he knocks him out, like, "Holy shit."

Jim Lampley 19:53 With a brilliant straight left hand against the ropes.

Joe Rogan 19:55 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 19:55 I can see it in my mind.

Joe Rogan 19:56 And then the Glen Johnson fight after that.

Jim Lampley 19:57 Yeah, and you know what? I just worked with Tarver a few weeks ago when you mentioned the Times Square card.

Joe Rogan 20:02 Yes.

Jim Lampley 20:02 And Tarver was my, uh, expert commentator-

Joe Rogan 20:05 Yes.

Jim Lampley 20:05 ... on the Times Square card. So energetic s-

Joe Rogan 20:07 Yeah, Tarver's great.

Jim Lampley 20:08 So lively.

Joe Rogan 20:09 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 20:09 Really good. Yeah, I, I, I was thrilled. I thought he was great.

Joe Rogan 20:13 And he's another guy that, with his boxing skill, went all the way up to heavyweight-

Jim Lampley 20:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:16 ... 'cause he was just so much better than everybody else.

Jim Lampley 20:17 Well, how many southpaw heavyweights? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:19 Right, very few. Very few. Michael Moorer.

Jim Lampley 20:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Yeah. He was southpaw, but again, another-

Jim Lampley 20:24 Who won the championship.

Joe Rogan 20:25 Yep, another light heavyweight who went up.

Jim Lampley 20:27 And lost it to my man.

Joe Rogan 20:28 George Foreman-

Jim Lampley 20:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:29 ... that one punch. Yeah, that was crazy.

Jim Lampley 20:31 You know, thus the title of my book. Thank y- thank you so much, George, a- 'cause you know the reason why my book is titled It Happened?

Joe Rogan 20:38 Why?

Jim Lampley 20:39 Or where, where I came up with It Happened? So, he was the expert commentator in the weeks leading to his fight with Moorer. He and I together had called Moorer against Holyfield when Moor- Moorer won the, the championship and in the weeks before he fought Moorer, I would pull him aside at crew meals and, um, fighter meetings and other occasions when I could get a minute with him. Three, four times, I asked him, "George, how are you gonna beat Moorer? He's a southpaw. He's a mover. He has great feet. Holyfield couldn't find him and Holyfield was much faster than you." And every time I said it, George would fix me with that implacable George Foreman gaze and say, "Jim, you watch. There will come a moment late in the fight. He will come and stand in front of me and let me knock him out." Always the same words.

Joe Rogan 21:40 Wow.

Jim Lampley 21:40 "He will come and stand in front of me and let me knock him out."

Joe Rogan 21:45 Wow.

Jim Lampley 21:46 So now, as Moorer's on the canvas, and Joe Cortez is six, seven, eight, and I'm thinking, "What am I gonna say about this?"

Joe Rogan 21:55 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 21:56 (laughs) How in the world do you establish this without being self-glorifying, you know? I've go- I've got to say something that's meaningful but I want it to be about him.

Joe Rogan 22:06 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 22:07 And I thought about what he had said to me, and what came out spontaneously was, "It happened." It happened.

Joe Rogan 22:14 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 22:14 It's really me talking to George, saying to him, "Okay, I get it."

Joe Rogan 22:19 Yeah. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 22:19 "You told me it was gonna happen and it happened."

Joe Rogan 22:21 Well, do you remember when George came back and he was 300 pounds and everybody was laughing at him and he was in his late 30s, I believe? Was he 34, 35?

Jim Lampley 22:30 Something like that.

Joe Rogan 22:31 When he made his comeback, he hadn't fought in 10 years. Everyone dismissed him, like, "What is he doing?" He was very overweight.

Jim Lampley 22:38 And he started the Bum of the Month Tour.

Joe Rogan 22:40 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 22:40 You, you know what I mean? And, and that, that's not a fair way to say it. They weren't bums, but they were people that he knew he could beat-

Joe Rogan 22:47 Yes.

Jim Lampley 22:47 ... to build a dossier toward what he really wanted.

Joe Rogan 22:51 And get in shape.

Jim Lampley 22:52 Yep.

Joe Rogan 22:52 And no one believed in him. No one. I remember me, w- as a boxing fan, watching that comeback, being sad. Like, "Oh, George Foreman's coming back and he's all fat now? This is sad."

Jim Lampley 23:04 Well, I'm sure you've known a lot of people like this, Joe. You wanna see George do something? Tell him he can't do it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:10 Right. Right.

Jim Lampley 23:12 Challenge his will, you know, because he's self-constructed person. You're talking about a guy who, as a teenager, 17 or 18 years old, says to himself, "I want to get out of the Fifth Ward of Houston. I don't want this life as a gangster or, uh, a laborer or whatever I'm going to get by living in the Fifth Ward of Houston. I want something else." So he goes to the Job Corps in Hayward, California and enrolls in the Job Corps and that's where he learned to box. That-

Joe Rogan 23:45 Wow.

Jim Lampley 23:45 That's what set him up, a year and a half later, to win his Olympic gold medal in Mexico City and, uh, and then go on to his storied professional, um, boxing career. Um, but, you know, it...... he, he was, in his own mind, proving he could do something that other people didn't think he could do, even at that point. He told me that when he first got to Hayward, he befriended one of the other people in the Job Corps who was a white kid and, uh, said... You know, they're talking about things that they like and the guy talks about Bob Dylan, how much he likes Bob Dylan. So George got the first two or three Bob Dylan albums and listened, wanted to hear what this is all about, and absorbed the lyrics and paid attention. And when George told me this story, I said, "George, (laughs) you, Bob Dylan?" You know, "H- h- how am I supposed to process all this?"

Joe Rogan 24:47 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 24:47 And he began quoting lyrics for me.

Joe Rogan 24:50 Wow.

Jim Lampley 24:50 Okay? From Blowin' in the Wind, from Don't Think Twice, It's Alright, et cetera, et cetera-

Joe Rogan 24:55 Hurricane.

Jim Lampley 24:55 ... from early Bob Dylan songs. Yes.

Joe Rogan 24:58 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 24:58 He knew about Hurricane, yes. So he was just an amazing person, you know, so broad-based. You know, and that was, I think that was part of what burned in him, was that everybody, myself included, gave Ali credit for all that. And George wanted, in his own way, for people to see, "Hey, I'm not that different than that." You know? And, I mean, one thing he said to me was, "You can't win the heavyweight championship of the world without being smart. Okay? A stupid person couldn't do this." You know?

Joe Rogan 25:30 It's true.

Jim Lampley 25:31 Yeah. So, he respected Moorer's intelligence, but he also understood something that I didn't understand. He'll come and stand in front of me late in the fight and let me knock him out.

Joe Rogan 25:43 Crazy. Crazy that he predicted it that way, 'cause that's exactly how it played out.

Jim Lampley 25:46 Oh, yeah. Go to YouTube. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:48 Yeah. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 25:48 You know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:49 I've seen it, I've seen it.

Jim Lampley 25:49 If you haven't seen it, he- it's, it's uncanny, it really is.

Joe Rogan 25:53 Well, I was a giant Michael Moorer fan when he was a light heavyweight and I think a lot of people forgot how dangerous he was at light heavyweight. He was one of the great light heavyweights.

Jim Lampley 26:01 No question.

Joe Rogan 26:02 Terrifying.

Jim Lampley 26:02 Because of the southpaw punching power. You know, you don't-

Joe Rogan 26:05 The power at light heavyweight was extraordinary.

Jim Lampley 26:06 I don't know if it's true in UFC as it is in boxing, but you don't see southpaw punchers very often.

Joe Rogan 26:11 Right.

Jim Lampley 26:11 Southpaws are technical, they box, they take advantage of their foot skills and their hand speed-

Joe Rogan 26:18 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 26:18 ... and they, they beat you with boxing skills. You're not often gonna run into a southpaw who's gonna knock you out. But we've already talked about Tarver and, and Moorer was another one-

Joe Rogan 26:28 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 26:28 ... who had punching power. Uh, and it's, you know, kind of... Cooney, Cooney was a southpaw with punching power.

Joe Rogan 26:34 Right.

Jim Lampley 26:34 It's kind of doubly effective if you've got that, 'cause you're worried about the technical issues with a southpaw and now he brings a cannon.

Joe Rogan 26:43 Right, right. Yeah, the southpaw thing was always so confusing to people, 'cause if you ever boxed before, you're so accustomed to that left hand being forward.

Jim Lampley 26:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:50 Then all of a sudden everything's reversed and now you're thinking.

Jim Lampley 26:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:53 And if you don't have a lot of southpaws that you train with on a regular basis, things aren't automatic anymore.

Jim Lampley 26:57 And one of the things that George used to talk to me about all the time was angles. That, you know, you're f- you're standing in front of another man, you're confronting him, you're trying to deliver and stop delivery, angles.

Joe Rogan 27:10 Right.

Jim Lampley 27:10 It's all about where does it come from and where is it going-

Joe Rogan 27:13 Right.

Jim Lampley 27:13 ... and how can I deal with that?

Joe Rogan 27:15 Yes.

Jim Lampley 27:15 Now, I was never a fighter, so I can't empathize, but I can sympathize when I listen to that kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 27:21 When you can see it, right?

Jim Lampley 27:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:23 And I think the greatest at angles of all time is Lomachenko. Nobody, nobody moves like that.

Jim Lampley 27:29 The greatest footwork.

Joe Rogan 27:30 Oh, my God.

Jim Lampley 27:31 The greatest hand skills, the, the most effective training by his father.

Joe Rogan 27:37 Yeah, what a genius move to take him out of boxing for two years to study Ukrainian dance.

Jim Lampley 27:43 And... Brilliant.

Joe Rogan 27:44 Brilliant.

Jim Lampley 27:44 Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, and, and by the way, he had an effect on the national team for several years. And what culture in the world has had more accomplishments and surprising new stars in boxing-

Joe Rogan 28:00 Right.

Jim Lampley 28:00 ... other than Ukraine?

Joe Rogan 28:02 Right. And Usyk, who is basically, like, moves like a giant Lomachenko, just not quite as effective though.

Jim Lampley 28:07 That's a really great phrase that I had never conjured before this moment.

Joe Rogan 28:11 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 28:11 Thank you, Joe. A giant Lomachenko.

Joe Rogan 28:13 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 28:13 That's exactly what it is.

Joe Rogan 28:14 You can't quite move that well when you're 220 pounds, you're just dealing with gravity and mass.

Jim Lampley 28:20 But you're still creating unique angles.

Joe Rogan 28:22 Yes.

Jim Lampley 28:22 You're, you're coming at them from unique approaches-

Joe Rogan 28:25 Yes.

Jim Lampley 28:25 ... et cetera.

Joe Rogan 28:26 Yes.

Jim Lampley 28:26 You're hard for your opponent to figure out.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Yes.

Jim Lampley 28:28 And Usyk is impossible-

Joe Rogan 28:30 And in constant motion.

Jim Lampley 28:30 ... for most other heavyweights. Constant motion.

Joe Rogan 28:32 Constant motion.

Jim Lampley 28:34 Constantly cutting off the ring with his feet.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 28:36 And hammers you to the body as often as he can.

Joe Rogan 28:39 Yep. Yeah. Lomachenko in his prime was, uh, just a magical thing to watch.

Jim Lampley 28:44 Brilliant.

Joe Rogan 28:45 It was like you were just watching poetry.

Jim Lampley 28:46 And I had the privilege of calling those fights.

Joe Rogan 28:49 Oh, it was so good.

Jim Lampley 28:49 You know, it was an extreme privilege.

Joe Rogan 28:51 Yeah. It was, uh, it was amazing watching him d- just do something where you'd seen so many different versions of boxers. And you watch him do it and you're like, "Oh my God, he put a new thing on this."

Jim Lampley 29:04 That's why I can't understand at this moment, can't really figure out what's up with Teofimo Lopez. How do you-

Joe Rogan 29:11 Right.

Jim Lampley 29:11 ... beat Vasyl Lomachenko-

Joe Rogan 29:13 Right.

Jim Lampley 29:14 ... and then wind up, you know, with somewhat indifferent results since that time?

Joe Rogan 29:19 Yeah, the Kambosos fight was kind of shocking, right?

Jim Lampley 29:21 Uh, now, he's, he's, he's fought better than the other guys in Times Square.

Joe Rogan 29:23 He did.

Jim Lampley 29:23 And I give him credit for upholding the card. Uh, but still, there's nothing since the Lomachenko win. I mean, you lose to George Kambosos?

Joe Rogan 29:32 I think the Kambosos fight was... I think he was just a little overconfident and he got caught, and then that really rocked him, that really shocked him. He got dropped early in the fight, remember that?

Jim Lampley 29:44 It's a bad sport to be overconfident in, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 29:45 It's the worst sport.

Jim Lampley 29:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:47 The worst sport.

Jim Lampley 29:48 Whether you're talking UFC or boxing.

Joe Rogan 29:49 Or... Yeah.

Jim Lampley 29:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:50 Any combat sport, when you don't appreciate the potential that your opponent has to do damage.

Jim Lampley 29:55 Well, I used to say to people all the time, "These are fine margins of competition."You think you see a lot of wipeouts in boxing? 'Cause you see a second-round knockout or third-round knockout, and you think that means there's a huge talent gap between the two fighters? No, it means one fighter made a mistake.

Joe Rogan 30:12 Right.

Jim Lampley 30:12 Okay?

Joe Rogan 30:13 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 30:13 90% of the time, it means one fighter made a mistake, and if he thinks about it and trains against it, he won't make that mistake again. So-

Joe Rogan 30:20 Well, like, perfect examples, Juan Manuel Marquez versus Pacquiao.

Jim Lampley 30:24 100%.

Joe Rogan 30:24 They have three insane fights that are very close. Marquez lands one bomb and starches Pacquiao. This one error. He got a little overconfident, a little, little too-

Jim Lampley 30:38 (smacks lips)

Joe Rogan 30:38 ... i- i- g- little too aggressive-

Jim Lampley 30:38 Greatest counterpuncher of his era.

Joe Rogan 30:40 And power.

Jim Lampley 30:41 Yeah. And with, with power.

Joe Rogan 30:43 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 30:43 With the straight-ahead power from the shoulder.

Joe Rogan 30:45 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 30:45 Marquez was a gifted fighter.

Joe Rogan 30:47 Very gifted. But just, like, that one moment, like, if that had happened in the first fight, we would look at the whole thing very differently.

Jim Lampley 30:55 100%.

Joe Rogan 30:55 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 30:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:57 There's just, like, uh, th- the margins, as you were saying, are so small for victory, that when you see, like, a spectacular result, you do automatically assume, "Oh, that person's just that much better." But sometimes it's just one error, one mistake.

Jim Lampley 31:10 It's a moment in time.

Joe Rogan 31:12 Right.

Jim Lampley 31:12 You know, if it's a knockout, uh, th- now, if, if somebody gets knocked down six times, then you're talking about something different.

Joe Rogan 31:19 Right.

Jim Lampley 31:19 But one knockdown that leads to a 10-count, that was a momentary mistake.

Joe Rogan 31:24 Right.

Jim Lampley 31:25 Uh, and, uh, that's, again, it goes to the fine margins of competition.

Joe Rogan 31:30 Right.

Jim Lampley 31:30 You can't make the one mistake.

Joe Rogan 31:32 Right. And then, you know, it's also how do you bounce back from that? Like, some people, the one moment, uh, uh, even if just a knockdown, they don't have the capacity to correct and stay safe and then regroup. Like, they get shook, and then now they're fighting f- from this position, this defensive position, where they're a little bit gun-shy.

Jim Lampley 31:53 So, Marquez exposed the difficulties that Pacquiao could have against a great counterpuncher. And now we get ready for Mayweather-Pacquiao.

Joe Rogan 32:02 Right.

Jim Lampley 32:03 And-

Joe Rogan 32:03 Mayweather just did such a smart thing, but also a devious thing, waiting until Pacquiao was older, waiting till he slowed down, and then-

Jim Lampley 32:11 Devious is not illegal in boxing. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:13 It's- it's encouraged.

Jim Lampley 32:14 Yeah. In any entrepreneurial sport, devious is not illegal.

Joe Rogan 32:19 No.

Jim Lampley 32:19 Devious can be an asset.

Joe Rogan 32:20 That's how you retire with a 50-0 record.

Jim Lampley 32:22 I give Floyd credit for brilliance. Okay?

Joe Rogan 32:24 Oh, yeah.

Jim Lampley 32:24 'Cause Floyd wasn't just a smart fighter. Floyd was a brilliant fighter. He was on his own level. And so much so, you know, in any matchup between the great counterpuncher and the great attacker, you know that the counterpuncher has the advantage.

Joe Rogan 32:40 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 32:41 He's got more options. He's got more ways of winning. The attacker has to break through the wall, so to speak. So, in the years before Mayweather-Pacquiao, people would run up to me on the street, run up to me in the shopping center in Vegas, run up to me in a hotel, "When am I gonna see Mayweather-Pacquiao?" And I would say, "Well, we don't know, but what exactly is it you think you're going to see?" "Oh, I can't wait! It's gonna be such a great fight." "No, it's not gonna be (laughs) a great fight."

Joe Rogan 33:10 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 33:10 "It's gonna be watching, like, watching somebody pluck the legs off a f- a spider. All right? Uh, you know, uh, uh, at a step-by-step method, and y- you're going to watch Mayweather pluck the legs off the spider that is Pacquiao, and it's going to be pretty easy for him, and it's not gonna be wildly entertaining, but it is gonna be a one-sided victory. So, why are you so excited about the Pa- 'Oh, no, I don't think that's the case,' da-da-da-da-da." But if you knew Floyd, you know, Floyd was only about winning the fight. He'll make fans other way.

Joe Rogan 33:46 Right.

Jim Lampley 33:46 On the web. I call him the first great social media genius.

Joe Rogan 33:51 Yeah. He was great at talking shit. He got everybody upset at him so badly that they wanted to see him lose, and that would sell tons of pay-per-views.

Jim Lampley 33:59 He realized you could build an audience with negativity.

Joe Rogan 34:02 Yes. (laughs) That's hugely-

Jim Lampley 34:02 You didn't have to be an omnibus character. You didn't have to be somebody everybody loved. You could be totally negative.

Joe Rogan 34:08 Right.

Jim Lampley 34:08 And that would build a following too.

Joe Rogan 34:10 Yeah. When he shifted from Pretty Boy Floyd to Money Mayweather, changed the whole thing. Yeah.

Jim Lampley 34:16 He knew what he was doing.

Joe Rogan 34:17 He definitely did. Uh, look, the... And it was... It would've been an interesting fight had he fought Pacquiao when he was younger, in his prime. It would've been a very different fight.

Jim Lampley 34:25 It would've been a more interesting fight. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:26 Much more different.

Jim Lampley 34:27 'Cause-

Joe Rogan 34:28 Much more difficult fight.

Jim Lampley 34:28 ... any go-forward physical warrior like Pacquiao is going to wear down.

Joe Rogan 34:32 Right. Exactly.

Jim Lampley 34:33 And any brilliant counterpuncher like Floyd is going to retain more.

Joe Rogan 34:37 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 34:37 So, he did.

Joe Rogan 34:38 Yeah, it would've been m- much more interesting when they were younger. Also, the fact that Pacquiao fought him with a bum shoulder. That was a disaster too.

Jim Lampley 34:45 Money talks.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Yeah. I mean, look, I guess he was faced with this thing, legacy, or... I mean, it was the biggest pay-per-view of all time in boxing, correct?

Jim Lampley 34:53 I believe so.

Joe Rogan 34:54 I believe so. And I think it was, like, 4 million buys or something crazy like that.

Jim Lampley 34:57 It was huge.

Joe Rogan 34:58 So, like, what is that-

Jim Lampley 34:59 It was massive.

Joe Rogan 35:00 Y- yeah. It just lured Pacquiao into, like-

Jim Lampley 35:02 All those people who had run up to me on the street corners for years finally-

Joe Rogan 35:05 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 35:05 ... got the chance to see what they wanted to see.

Joe Rogan 35:07 Yeah, give 'em a cortisone shot, throw 'em out there.

Jim Lampley 35:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:10 Yeah. Unfortunately. This is an advertisement from BetterHelp. Stress in the workplace is becoming an issue around the world. Did you know that 60% of the global workforce has reported experiencing higher-than-normal levels of stress? So, it's more important than ever that we learn to take some time for ourselves. Plan a nice long holiday this summer. Go hiking, read a book, play video games. I found that even a few minutes of meditation can help. Another great option is therapy. Everyone can benefit from it, and it's arguably one of the better long-term solutions to stress. Therapy can teach you how to positively cope and manage anxiety while improving your self-confidence and self-awareness. It can be very empowering. And thanks to BetterHelp, therapy is becoming more and more convenient. All it takes is a few clicks to join a session.You can also join from anywhere, whether you're at the beach, on your vacation, or at home after a grueling day of work. Plus, as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhelp.com/jre. Unfortunately for... I remember there was, like, a class action lawsuit, because a lot of people were upset that Pacquiao fought injured. A lot of the gamblers.

Jim Lampley 36:38 I never talked to Freddie about that. But, you know, uh, at the end of the day, the fighter makes the decision.

Joe Rogan 36:45 Well, the money, yeah.

Jim Lampley 36:47 And the money.

Joe Rogan 36:47 And the money, yeah. That happens a lot in the UFC. There's a lot of fighters that fight injured and, you know...

Jim Lampley 36:53 Yeah, I gotta tell you this while we're talking about him, all right? I apologize for going off script here a little bit. I was with Manny three weeks ago, less than a month ago, at the Hall of Fame inductions in Canastota, New York, where he was being inducted into the Hall of Fame. And, uh, on the night before the induction ceremony, there's a big banquet in a banquet hall at the Turning Stone Casino, and I'm sitting up on the dais between Roy and Ross Greenberg, my former boss at HBO. And right across to the left of us, behind the podium, is Manny. And several people spoke. I didn't know that I was gonna speak. I was asked to get up and speak. I did. Roy did a speech, etc., etc. Eventually, Manny got up and made a speech. Now, I met Manny Pacquiao 24 years ago in a fighter meeting room in Las Vegas before his fight against Leshaunola Ledwaba, which was his first appearance in the United States. He was a-

Joe Rogan 37:57 What weight class was that?

Jim Lampley 37:58 He was a kind of a throw-in opponent. What weight class was that?

Joe Rogan 38:01 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 38:02 So that would have been 122.

Joe Rogan 38:05 Oh. Isn't that nuts?

Jim Lampley 38:07 And Larry and I were 100% convinced that Ledwaba was the best 122-pound fighter in the world. We had seen him on the undercard of Louis Rachman in, uh, in Johannesburg, South Africa. There's nobody, nobody who could possibly be better than that. Grace, style, hand skills, all the stuff. And I meet Manny in that room. He can't put three or four words of English together. I learn his backstory, that he survived by selling stolen cigarettes on the streets of General Santos City in the Philippines. I get and understand that his big activity outside of the gym is to go play pool.

Joe Rogan 38:46 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 38:47 He's a pool player in-

Joe Rogan 38:48 Professional level?

Jim Lampley 38:49 ... in bar rooms... In bar rooms, exactly.

Joe Rogan 38:50 Yeah, he plays very good.

Jim Lampley 38:51 Professional level pool player, et cetera. All of that. And, um, and then fast-forward 24 years and he's being inducted at the Hall of Fame, and without warning, he's asked to speak that night. And he stands up and makes a 15-minute speech, maybe 12 minutes, but it was more than 10. All in English, all perfect. Uh, all more or less off the top of his head, unedited. It was brilliant. And, and I went to him afterward, hugged him, told him how much I loved him, and I said, I said, "Manny, I first met you 24 years ago when you couldn't put three words of English together. And I know that politics had something to do with this." And he said, "Yes, but a lot of my political speeches were in Tagalog." Uh, and I said, "Well, some of them were in English?" He said, "Yes, some." Um, and I said, uh, "I don't think there's any sport other than boxing where somebody could have achieved the kind of personal transformation that you have achieved. This is the only one." And he said, "Well, it, it sure helped me, that's for sure." Now, you probably know the story about Muhammad Ali and graduating from high school in Louisville?

Joe Rogan 40:10 Yes.

Jim Lampley 40:11 Okay. So just for our listeners and consumers, um, Ali had very bad grades, and in his senior year he was flunking a math course. And in order to graduate, he had to pass the math course, and he was nowhere near it. And the math teacher went to the principal of the high school and said, "I'm gonna give him a passing grade, even though he has not performed on any of the tests and he doesn't do the homework and stuff like that." And the principal is like, "Why would you do this for, for this kid? Why would you give him a passing grade when he hasn't earned it?" And the teacher said, "You have to understand, he's going to be the most famous man in the world, and we cannot be the high school that denied a diploma to the most famous man in the world."

Joe Rogan 41:02 That's such a crazy statement. I wonder if it's true.

Jim Lampley 41:04 I wonder if it's-

Joe Rogan 41:05 That's Huhne-

Jim Lampley 41:05 I wonder if it's true too-

Joe Rogan 41:06 ... but it seems like-

Jim Lampley 41:07 ... but it's a fun story to tell.

Joe Rogan 41:08 It is.

Jim Lampley 41:08 And of course, it's secondhand.

Joe Rogan 41:10 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 41:10 You're, you're exactly right.

Joe Rogan 41:12 It is. It's so good-

Jim Lampley 41:13 I don't know the teacher and I don't know the principal. I just know the story. Uh, and I know, and I know Ali's primary biographer, uh, Tom Hauser. So maybe I got it from Tom.

Joe Rogan 41:24 Yeah. I, I'd like to believe that that's true.

Jim Lampley 41:27 I'd like to believe it's true too.

Joe Rogan 41:28 (laughs) It makes it more fun.

Jim Lampley 41:29 Let's, let's make a pact to believe it's true.

Joe Rogan 41:31 Yeah. The thing about Pacquiao that's so extraordinary is that he kept his power through eight weight classes. That is just wild. Like who, what other fighter can you name that went through eight different weight classes-

Jim Lampley 41:43 I can't.

Joe Rogan 41:43 ... as a world champion?

Jim Lampley 41:44 I can't. None. No, obviously. Um, what I, what I did learn that may relate to that is Foreman was at great pains to explain to me, and explained a couple of times, that power punching is not a physical gift.Power punching is a science. Power punching is the product of real technical knowledge. Power punching is about, um, footwork, weight shift, uh, the angle at which you deliver the punch. Uh, you know, all sorts of things not directly related to your strength or "power." Uh, and George was a disciplined and knowledgeable scientist, uh, about stuff like that. And he, he explained it all to me one time. And of course, if you watched the Moorer knockout-

Joe Rogan 42:35 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 42:35 ... he lands the first one too, right on the button.

Joe Rogan 42:38 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 42:38 And then having Moerer where he wants him, he puts a little more mustard on the second one too and we're out of there.

Joe Rogan 42:45 He puts some more. But there are physical gifts that you are just... They're just God-given gifts of power. Like the-

Jim Lampley 42:51 Big hands, big hands.

Joe Rogan 42:52 Big hands are, uh...

Jim Lampley 42:53 Shoulders.

Joe Rogan 42:54 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 42:54 Yeah, all that.

Joe Rogan 42:55 There's just certain guys though that just have extraordinary power. Like you remember Julian Jackson in his prime?

Jim Lampley 43:01 Oh my gosh.

Joe Rogan 43:02 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 43:02 Hulk. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:03 Extraordinary power.

Jim Lampley 43:05 At- at some moment or another, he's gonna get you.

Joe Rogan 43:07 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 43:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:07 It was just disturbing-

Jim Lampley 43:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:09 ... how hard he hit.

Jim Lampley 43:10 Yep.

Joe Rogan 43:10 It was just different than everybody else.

Jim Lampley 43:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:12 And it looked like he was doing the same thing, but the results were so much different.

Jim Lampley 43:15 How about Andy Lee? Skinny, not somebody you would expect to have-

Joe Rogan 43:20 Right.

Jim Lampley 43:20 ... you know-

Joe Rogan 43:21 Right.

Jim Lampley 43:21 ... heavy hands.

Joe Rogan 43:22 Right.

Jim Lampley 43:22 Knocking everybody out with the left hand.

Joe Rogan 43:24 How about Deontay Wilder?

Jim Lampley 43:25 Yeah, another one.

Joe Rogan 43:26 A 209-pound heavyweight-

Jim Lampley 43:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:28 ... that's flattening people. At 209 pounds when he fights Tyson Fury the first time. Not-

Jim Lampley 43:33 Some, some of it is the bravery to commit.

Joe Rogan 43:36 Right.

Jim Lampley 43:36 You know?

Joe Rogan 43:37 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 43:37 Can you, can you push your weight forward-

Joe Rogan 43:39 Right.

Jim Lampley 43:40 ... in a way that might leave you open to the counter and, and believe that you're gonna get the better of that exchange? If you believe you're gonna get the better ex- of the exchange-

Joe Rogan 43:50 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 43:50 ... go ahead, go forward. And, and that enhances your chance of knocking someone out.

Joe Rogan 43:55 There... But there is, there's physical gifts that you are just God-given, and some people have them. And th- these are the extraordinary outliers, the Deontay Wilders, the Julian Jacksons, the, uh, John Mugabes. Remember Mugabe?

Jim Lampley 44:10 John The Beast Mugabe.

Joe Rogan 44:11 Ooh, I rewatched that Mugabe-Hagler fight the other day in the gym.

Jim Lampley 44:13 What a great fight. (laughs) What a great fight. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:18 What a fight. What a fight. Hagler was my hero when I was a kid. And he was-

Jim Lampley 44:24 So-

Joe Rogan 44:24 ... one of the first guys-

Jim Lampley 44:24 So you're probably... So I'm sure you're an advocate with regard to what I call the number one elevator fight of all time. That-

Joe Rogan 44:32 Thomas Hearns?

Jim Lampley 44:32 ... Hagler was the winner. Now, the-

Joe Rogan 44:34 Which one?

Jim Lampley 44:35 The number one elevator fight of all time... And an elevator fight is the fight where you're Jim Lampley or you're Joe Rogan or you're any combat sports expert, et cetera, and you step onto an elevator with six people and somebody turns around and says, "Who won Leonard Hagler?" Okay? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:51 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Jim Lampley 44:51 The debate about the decision, you know?

Joe Rogan 44:53 Yes.

Jim Lampley 44:54 And, uh, you know, I'm sure you say Hagler beat Ray.

Joe Rogan 44:58 Yes.

Jim Lampley 44:59 Uh, and of course we all know that Ray partially won the judges and the crowd with showbiz, with the-

Joe Rogan 45:07 Yes.

Jim Lampley 45:07 ... you know, with the way that he threw his arms up at the end-

Joe Rogan 45:10 Yes.

Jim Lampley 45:10 ... of every round and, you know, called attention to himself. And he, he was quite aware of what he was doing. Uh, and he was quite aware also that it would get under Hagler's skin.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Yes.

Jim Lampley 45:20 So, you know, there, there was an element of genius in Ray, as we talked about already-

Joe Rogan 45:25 For sure.

Jim Lampley 45:25 ... that, that went to more than just his spectacular physical gifts.

Joe Rogan 45:30 Right. Yeah, no, he, he gamed the system a little bit. He figured out how to flurry at the end of the rounds and make a big impression in the judge's eyes. That was a very close fight, but that fight always bothered me. And one of the things that bothered me is I felt like there were moments where Hagler could have turned it up and didn't, and then when he retired after that fight and went to Italy and became a, a giant movie star in Italy, the conspiratorial part of my brain was always like, "Was that like one of those deals where everybody assumed that Hagler was gonna win?" Hagler was a destroyer. Hagler had knocked out Tommy Hearns. Hagler had beaten everybody in the division, knocked out Mugabe. He was, he was the man, you know?

Jim Lampley 46:15 You fought, right?

Joe Rogan 46:16 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 46:17 So you fought, I didn't. I mean, I've, I've only talked. But because you fought, you probably have an even stronger sense than I do of how difficult the sport is.

Joe Rogan 46:27 Yes.

Jim Lampley 46:27 Uh, the training is difficult.

Joe Rogan 46:29 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 46:30 The fear factor is-

Joe Rogan 46:32 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 46:32 ... is certainly part of it. Um, the level of concentration and devotion that it takes. Uh, it, it's not easy.

Joe Rogan 46:42 No.

Jim Lampley 46:42 Tea- team sports are easier. Uh-

Joe Rogan 46:44 For sure.

Jim Lampley 46:45 ... and, and, um, and so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking that every fighter reaches a point where, enough.

Joe Rogan 46:54 Yes.

Jim Lampley 46:54 And, and, and they might reach that point without really cognitively knowing that they've reached that point where it's enough.

Joe Rogan 47:00 Right.

Jim Lampley 47:01 Hagler went to Italy, as you say.

Joe Rogan 47:03 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 47:03 Maybe he had already reached something like enough-

Joe Rogan 47:07 Could be.

Jim Lampley 47:07 ... uh, before he fought Ray in that fight.

Joe Rogan 47:09 Well, you know, he had accomplished so much and also his training camps were the stuff of legend. I mean, he would spar 100 rounds a week sometimes.

Jim Lampley 47:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:19 Which is just insane.

Jim Lampley 47:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:22 Hagler was a monster. I mean, his conditioning and his drive and his will and his discipline, he was a monster. He would scare the shit out of everybody just from his work ethic. I remember I told this story, there was a news piece, um, when he was training on the cape, and it was in the middle of the winter and he was fighting Moustafa Hamcho. And he was running down the sand dune screaming, "War," with combat boots on in the winter.

Jim Lampley 47:48 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:48 And I remember thinking, "Pf. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 47:50 (laughs) War, war.

Joe Rogan 47:53 Yeah, 'cause you think you're disciplined, you think you're driven, you think you know, you're special. And then you see a guy like that, it's like, he's what my friend David Goggins calls uncommon amongst uncommon men.

Jim Lampley 48:03 Great line. So where does Hagler-Hearns rank among your all-time favorites?

Joe Rogan 48:08 One of the greatest of all time. Great- one of the greatest fights of all time, because Hagler just threw caution to the wind. Fuck-

Jim Lampley 48:14 Totally.

Joe Rogan 48:14 ... all this boxing. Just jumped-

Jim Lampley 48:17 Well- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:17 ... jumped out and-

Jim Lampley 48:18 So did Tommy.

Joe Rogan 48:19 So did Tommy.

Jim Lampley 48:20 Tommy didn't-

Joe Rogan 48:20 Both of them did. Joe-

Jim Lampley 48:21 Tommy didn't go in with a self-protective approach.

Joe Rogan 48:23 Well, he, he tried to box. Remember, after he broke his hand, he tried just throwing the jab out there. You could tell early on in the first round when he broke his hand.

Jim Lampley 48:30 Yes.

Joe Rogan 48:30 Because from then on, he's moving, he's a little... But he's already endured so much damage.

Jim Lampley 48:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:35 I mean, they have just thrown each other into the wood chipper. Both guys were just blasting away. Hagler got hurt, Tommy got hurt.

Jim Lampley 48:42 I hope, I hope a lot of people are gonna listen to this and go watch Hagler-Hearns on, uh-

Joe Rogan 48:46 (sighs)

Jim Lampley 48:46 ... on their, uh, web-

Joe Rogan 48:47 They have to.

Jim Lampley 48:47 ... attachment because it-

Joe Rogan 48:48 They have to.

Jim Lampley 48:49 It's as great as, as anything has ever been.

Joe Rogan 48:51 It was insane. I remember being in my living room when, when Hearns went down, and just going, "Wow!" Like, you can't bel- and this was after Hearns had knocked out Duran, and I thought nobody could knock out Duran. When Hearns flat-lined Duran, I was like, "Good Lord! Good Lord!" Like, to see Duran face-down on the canvas was like, you, you had to check your eyes, like, "Is this real?"

Jim Lampley 49:15 Well, did Tommy break his hand with that right hand in the first round against Hagler?

Joe Rogan 49:19 Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Lampley 49:21 There you go.

Joe Rogan 49:21 There you go. Well, Hagler-

Jim Lampley 49:23 You've lost your primary weapon.

Joe Rogan 49:24 He has one knockdown attributed to him in his career, and it's bullshit. The Juan Roldan fight.

Jim Lampley 49:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:30 Bullshit. Not really a knockdown.

Jim Lampley 49:32 And now we deal with Canelo-

Joe Rogan 49:34 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 49:34 ... who has had one knockdown attributed to him in his career, and in my view, it was bullshit.

Joe Rogan 49:39 Which fight was that?

Jim Lampley 49:40 So, it was Miguel Cotto's little brother, Jose Cotto. It was the first time we had Canelo on, uh, HBO. Believe it was an undercard of a top-rank pay-per-view. I'm not 100% certain, uh, about that. And, um, Cotto's little brother, Jose, caught, uh, Canelo with a right hand body punch to the chest, and Canelo hit the ropes behind him and bounced off the ropes, kind of unbalanced. He didn't go down, but he came off the ropes ungainly, unbalanced, et cetera. And the referee, and I can't remember which referee, stepped in and very technically ruled that the ropes had held him up.

Joe Rogan 50:22 Ugh.

Jim Lampley 50:23 So, that's the only official knockdown in Canelo's career, and he didn't touch the canvas.

Joe Rogan 50:29 That's crazy.

Jim Lampley 50:29 Nobody has ever put him on the canvas, and this is part of what, uh, Terence is facing-

Joe Rogan 50:36 Yes.

Jim Lampley 50:36 ... as he gets ready to fight him in September, is you're, you're fighting a guy who, up to this moment in his career, has been utterly knockout proof.

Joe Rogan 50:43 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 50:44 Knockdown proof.

Joe Rogan 50:46 Well, even against a guy like Bivol, who's huge.

Jim Lampley 50:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:49 You know?

Jim Lampley 50:49 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:50 A huge light heavyweight.

Jim Lampley 50:51 Yeah, but Bivol is, Bivol is, I'm gonna say at least 50/50 a backup counter-puncher. Uh, and they don't muster exactly the same power as a go-forward attacker.

Joe Rogan 51:05 True.

Jim Lampley 51:05 I think, you know, you notice that he hasn't fought Beterbiev. Uh, and I'm not sure that Beterbiev would be the right matchup, but-

Joe Rogan 51:13 For Canelo.

Jim Lampley 51:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Right.

Jim Lampley 51:14 For Canelo.

Joe Rogan 51:15 Can-

Jim Lampley 51:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:15 I think that would be a nightmare matchup. Yeah, Beterbiev, especially... Even though he's almost 40 now, right? Is he 40?

Jim Lampley 51:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:21 He might be 40.

Jim Lampley 51:21 He might be 40.

Joe Rogan 51:22 But-

Jim Lampley 51:22 But he's still in shape, and he still-

Joe Rogan 51:24 He's-

Jim Lampley 51:24 ... comes forward, and he's a, you know, naturally heavy hands, big hitter.

Joe Rogan 51:28 Oh, one of the scariest of all time at 175. He's another one of those guys. It's just like... But with him, it's volume.

Jim Lampley 51:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 51:34 It's not one shot, but it's this thudding volume that never ends, this constant attack that never ends.

Jim Lampley 51:41 Which is what has made his two fights with Bivol so-

Joe Rogan 51:44 Yes.

Jim Lampley 51:44 ... spectacular to watch.

Joe Rogan 51:46 Yes.

Jim Lampley 51:46 You know? Because-

Joe Rogan 51:47 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 51:47 ... Bivol is not a make-fire fighter.

Joe Rogan 51:49 Right.

Jim Lampley 51:50 He's a natural counter-puncher.

Joe Rogan 51:51 Right.

Jim Lampley 51:52 But if you insist on making the fire-

Joe Rogan 51:54 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 51:54 ... and you're strong enough to make the fire, then Bivol has to fight.

Joe Rogan 51:58 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 51:58 Which he's done twice against Beterbiev.

Joe Rogan 52:00 Well, he made brilliant adjustments in the second fight. Brilliant adjustments.

Jim Lampley 52:03 He's a brilliant guy.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Yeah, I mean, he really, really made the proper adjustments in the counter-strikes and the movement, and he was just much better in the second fight.

Jim Lampley 52:11 It's another country with very good boxing training.

Joe Rogan 52:13 Oh, phenomenal.

Jim Lampley 52:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:14 Do you think that they're, are they having a rubber match?

Jim Lampley 52:17 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 52:17 For the third?

Jim Lampley 52:18 I don't know. Yeah. I'm not-

Joe Rogan 52:20 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 52:20 I don't talk to promoters anymore, so-

Joe Rogan 52:22 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 52:22 ... yeah, I'm not sure about that. I hope they do.

Joe Rogan 52:26 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 52:26 I think it's a fantastic idea.

Joe Rogan 52:28 I think Riyadh Season was trying to put that together. I think they're trying to put together a third fight, and I really hope they do make that fight.

Jim Lampley 52:33 Go Turkey.

Joe Rogan 52:34 Yeah. You, you kinda have to do it now before Beterbiev is just... He's probably passed his prime-

Jim Lampley 52:41 41, 42, et cetera.

Joe Rogan 52:43 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 52:43 These numbers sound forbidding, yes.

Joe Rogan 52:45 But still, even as an old guy-

Jim Lampley 52:47 But, you know, remember, Foreman was 45.

Joe Rogan 52:49 Right.

Jim Lampley 52:49 What did he still have?

Joe Rogan 52:51 Right.

Jim Lampley 52:51 Power.

Joe Rogan 52:51 Right? True.

Jim Lampley 52:52 Okay?

Joe Rogan 52:52 And b- and skill. The skill thing. Like, here's the best example of that, Bernard Hopkins. Who has maintained their skill deep into their 40s? In fact, at a world-class level at 49 years old? Beating, like, top contenders at 49 years old?

Jim Lampley 53:09 One of the smartest men I've ever met. Okay. Bernard Hopkins is smart beyond smart. Uh, he has a PhD-type intelligence. He really does. And he was also a very critical and thoughtful self-examiner.

Joe Rogan 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 53:26 So, those two things helped Bernard to sustain long into, you know, antiquity. And an extremely disciplined personal life.

Joe Rogan 53:37 Yes. That's the big one.

Jim Lampley 53:39 Because, you know, he, he kept his prison tattoo o- on his arm.

Joe Rogan 53:44 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 53:44 And he kept that number on his arm to remind him that he was never going to go back.

Joe Rogan 53:50 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 53:51 And, and I asked him one time, I said, "What, what's the hardest thing you've ever done?" And he said, "Well, the hardest thing I've ever done was to walk off nine in the neighborhood in which I grew up." I said, "What do you mean walk off nine?" Nine years of probation.... nine years of living on and in the same streets where I was the king of the streets when I was, uh, on the other side of the law.

Joe Rogan 54:17 Ah.

Jim Lampley 54:17 Nine years of reminding myself that I could never go back, that my ha- my behavior had to change completely. That's what he called walking off nine.

Joe Rogan 54:27 Wow.

Jim Lampley 54:28 What a phrase, huh?

Joe Rogan 54:29 Yeah, what a phrase.

Jim Lampley 54:30 What a guy.

Joe Rogan 54:31 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 54:31 Really, what a guy. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:32 Well, I, I remember when he was middleweight champion, and he wasn't getting the credit that he felt like he deserved, and he was, you know, uh, squabbling with promoters and they kept him on the shelf. I'm like, "My God, he's, like, wasting away in the prime of his life." And I felt like we were gonna, like, miss out on the prime of his life, and then here he, he gets into the Felix Trinidad fight, and I was like, "This guy's... This is crazy watching this guy, like, completely outclass Tito Trinidad." I'm like, "This is nuts."

Jim Lampley 55:03 Of all the fighters I've ever known, if you were to ask me who is the one most likely to still be holding every dollar he ever made, that's Bernard.

Joe Rogan 55:13 Right. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 55:13 Okay? He gives nothing away. Uh, and he protects himself, he protects his family, he protects everything about his experience in an extremely devoted way. Why? Walking off nine.

Joe Rogan 55:27 Wow.

Jim Lampley 55:27 Never wants to go back.

Joe Rogan 55:29 Wow. Well, those are the stories that are so inspiring about boxing, right? The, the, the, the people that have used boxing as a vehicle to get out of their circumstances.

Jim Lampley 55:38 Totally.

Joe Rogan 55:39 You know?

Jim Lampley 55:39 Yeah, and Bernard's one of the greatest examples imaginable.

Joe Rogan 55:42 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 55:42 I love him.

Joe Rogan 55:43 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 55:43 And, you know, I had him on my show, The Fight Game, on HBO. I had him do technical pieces-

Joe Rogan 55:50 Mmm.

Jim Lampley 55:51 ... because he was better than anybody at explaining footwork, technique, et cetera. Andre Ward could have done it too, but Andre was still fighting, uh, at that period of time.

Joe Rogan 56:01 Mmm. Yeah, that was a great show, man. That was another bummer when, when HBO stopped doing boxing.

Jim Lampley 56:07 Well, look, when I mean, I, I say-

Joe Rogan 56:09 But it had to be successful for them. That's what I don't understand.

Jim Lampley 56:10 ... I like to say this, it wasn't HBO, okay? The minute that Time Warner was bought by a bunch of cellphone salesmen from Dallas, AT&T-

Joe Rogan 56:20 Oh.

Jim Lampley 56:20 ... the character of the operation changed.

Joe Rogan 56:23 Mmm.

Jim Lampley 56:23 And the first thing that went away was boxing. Um, it's in my book. You'll read it. Uh, there's an anecdote about, uh, me, uh, at a post Emmy Awards or post Golden Globe Awards event in Hollywood, shortly after AT&T had purchased HBO. And I was seated at the table of Richard Plepler, the, uh, longtime brilliant chairman of HBO, my beloved boss. And, um, Plepler said, "See that guy over there in the gray suit?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "That's your new boss. That's John Stankey, the CEO of AT&T. I think you ought to go say hello. I think you ought to go meet him and just spend a little time with him." So, I took his advice, I went over and had a 10-minute discussion with Stankey, very nice, um, very cordial, fun. And I walked back to Plepler's table, and he said, "So, what do you think?" I said, "I think boxing is dead." He said, "I agree with you, I just wanted to be sure that we were on the same page."

Joe Rogan 57:29 Oh, God.

Jim Lampley 57:30 Yeah. So it was clear, it was clear from that moment that they, they were not interested in going forward with something as-

Joe Rogan 57:36 Why did you think boxing was dead? Why'd you say that?

Jim Lampley 57:39 Well, I, I mean, I could just tell from the way in which he spoke to me and the-

Joe Rogan 57:44 Oh.

Jim Lampley 57:45 ... the, you know, the, the, the-

Joe Rogan 57:46 So you weren't saying it based on your personal opinion.

Jim Lampley 57:47 ... diffident replies to questions like, "Are we gonna do this fight?" You know-

Joe Rogan 57:52 Uh...

Jim Lampley 57:52 ... "What do you think about that?" Stuff like that. It was abundantly clear that they just, they saw it as a negative rather than a positive. And-

Joe Rogan 58:00 In public perception or profitability?

Jim Lampley 58:02 Profitability.

Joe Rogan 58:03 Really? But it was the place.

Jim Lampley 58:05 Too many unpredict-... many unpredictables in boxing. You schedule a show, somebody gets hurt, et cetera. I, I think they didn't want that kind of, um, real-life upheaval, and also, they saw it as unsavory-

Joe Rogan 58:20 Oh...

Jim Lampley 58:20 ... or at least it felt that way to me.

Joe Rogan 58:22 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 58:22 You know? So, um...

Joe Rogan 58:24 Yeah. Well, that-

Jim Lampley 58:26 Th- this goes to the fact, and you know this as well as I do or maybe better, people from outside combat sports don't understand combat sports.

Joe Rogan 58:34 No.

Jim Lampley 58:34 Y- you know, you're either in the culture and you get it, or you're not.

Joe Rogan 58:38 Right.

Jim Lampley 58:38 You know? And I, uh, you know, when I first started calling fights, I was assigned to call boxing at ABC Sports by an incoming new president of the sports department who wanted to get rid of me-

Joe Rogan 58:54 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 58:54 ... and who thought, and who thought that I would be such a misfit in boxing that if he assigned me to boxing, the audience would reject me.

Joe Rogan 59:03 Really?

Jim Lampley 59:03 They would see me as the successor to Cosell, that would cut my throat, and then I would walk away from my contract, which is what he wanted me to do. He wanted me to... He thought my contract was absurd, too lucrative, he didn't like the guarantees for, uh, relative to exposure. And he told my agent flat out, he said, "I, I'm gonna get rid of Jim. I'm gonna make him walk away." And his first method for doing it was boxing.

Joe Rogan 59:28 Wow.

Jim Lampley 59:28 So, of course, that means he didn't know that the very first sports event my mother ever sat me down to watch when I was six years old, after my father died when I was five, was Sugar Ray Robinson versus Bobo Olson for the middleweight championship-

Joe Rogan 59:42 Oh, wow.

Jim Lampley 59:43 ... on Gillette Friday Night Fights. That I had grown up all through my childhood and teenage years watching Gillette Friday Night Fights. And later, people would say to me, "Who's the voice in the back of your mind when you're calling fights? Is it Cosell?" I said, "Oh, hell no. I would never try to emulate that." Don Dunphy, crisp, precise, factual, on point, that's who I'm hearing in the back of my head when I, uh, when I call fights.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 Interesting.

Jim Lampley 1:00:10 Yeah, so he, he thought he could get rid of me by assigning me to boxing.And, um, he also did not seem to be paying much attention to the fact that his division, with leadership of a guy named Alex Wallau, who was a boxing freak, had just signed a get acquainted look-see contract with a 19-year-old heavyweight from Upstate New York, whose name was Mike Tyson.

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:00:33 So the first fight I ever called on TV was Mike Cu- Tyson versus Jesse Ferguson in Glens Falls, New York. And this is the famous drive his nose bone into his, into his brain fight.

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:00:46 Alex went to do post-fight interview after Tyson had obliterated Jesse's nose with an upper cut. There was blood all over the ring. And, uh, and Alex said, you know, "Mike, tell me about the upper cut." And Mike said, "Cut D'Amato taught me that the purpose of the upper cut is to drive the opponent's nose bone into his brain. I was trying to drive his nose bone into his brain."

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:01:09 And I'm standing on the other side of the ring listening to this, headset on, and I thought to myself, "Oh my God, look at what I've stumbled into here. This kid is not only gonna be the biggest attraction in boxing, he's gonna th- be the biggest attraction in American culture if he can keep coming up with quotes like that." And of course, within the next few weeks, they all started spilling out, "Boxing is a hurt business. Everybody's got a plan until you hit them." All the things that D'Amato had taught him, which he memorized and then reproduced in his media contacts.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Yes. One of my favorite TV fights was him versus Marvis Frazier 'cause it was such a terrifying execution.

Jim Lampley 1:01:53 I'm giving away too much of the book, Joe. I mean, uh, my, my publisher would say, "Wait, don't tell him the whole book."

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Come on, people are gonna buy it anyway.

Jim Lampley 1:01:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 Don't worry about that.

Jim Lampley 1:02:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 Don't ever listen to publishers.

Jim Lampley 1:02:01 So Alex Wallau, Alex Wallau and I lived f- five blocks apart on upper Fifth Avenue in New York. And when we went to Upstate New York for the Tyson fights, of which there were several, we would always ride up in his, uh, green Jaguar and he knew the route. I mean, he would drive, play me his esoteric rock music. You ever heard of Cock Robin? Try him out sometime.

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 No. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:02:26 Um, and, uh, and so all the way up to Albany for the Marvis Frazier fight, Alex is saying to me, "You know, I'm thinking of saying in the opening on camera that Mike will knock him out in the first round. Do you think that's too audacious?" And I said, "Well, Alex, you're the expert, you know, I'm just a throw-in blow by blow guy who's trying to get my feet wet here. I'm the last person who's gonna tell you what it is you should say. So if you believe Mike is gonna knock him out in the first round and you're confident saying that, first of all, no one's gonna penalize you on Monday if you're wrong. Nobody's gonna print some big headline that says, 'Wallau was crazy' or something like that. It's, it goes into the wash at that point. And second of all, if you're right, you will get credit for it. If you're right, Rudy Martzke will say so in USA Today." Um, and so that's our position for two thirds of the trip to Albany. And now in the last, oh, 40 or 50 miles, he starts saying, "What if I said he's gonna knock him out in the first minute? Do you think that's too brave?" Same thing, "Alex-"

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:03:39 "... if you believe he's gonna knock him out in the first minute, go ahead and say he's gonna knock him out in the first minute. I'm not here to control you or tell you what to say. Say whatever you want to say. I think I'm gonna say that he's gonna knock him out in the first minute." So the following day we do a rehearsal for the opening on camera and he says he'll knock him out in the first minute. Then when we do the live opening on camera for the show, he gets a little more cautious and he pulls it back to, there you are-

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 Look at young, handsome Jim Lamplugh.

Jim Lampley 1:04:08 ... that's to Lamplugh. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 Look at you.

Jim Lampley 1:04:10 Hair parted on the right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:04:11 We'll get to that in a moment. Um, he, uh, he pulls it back and when we do it live on camera, he says, "Mike will knock him out in the first round." Was it 33 seconds or 31 seconds?

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:04:24 I think it was 33 seconds. And all the way back to New York-

Joe Rogan 1:04:29 He's like, "Should've said the first minute." (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:04:30 ... he is moaning and groaning, "Why in God's name didn't I say what I really believed?"

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 Ah, that's funny.

Jim Lampley 1:04:36 Like, "Alex, Alex, you said he'd knock him out in the first round."

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 And you were right, he nailed it.

Jim Lampley 1:04:40 "You're going to get credit for that."

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:04:42 "You were right." "Yeah, but I could have gotten more credit if I'd said-"

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:04:45 "... what I really believe."

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 That's such a silly perspective.

Jim Lampley 1:04:47 I mean, now, y- We talk about fighters freezing.

Joe Rogan 1:04:50 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:04:50 Marvis froze on Saturday.

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:04:52 I mean on, on Friday.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:04:53 The day before the fight.

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 Well, it was-

Jim Lampley 1:04:55 Marvis was frozen.

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 Well, we knew. We knew coming into that fight. We knew. It was a perfect fight for Mike to showcase because Marvis had the giant name 'cause he was Joe Frazier's son, and Joe Frazier had been trash talking Mike. And-

Jim Lampley 1:05:08 It helped to create what ultimately became-

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:05:12 ... the myth-

Joe Rogan 1:05:13 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:05:13 ... of Mike Tyson.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Uh-huh.

Jim Lampley 1:05:14 The notion that he was going to knock everybody out-

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 And it was-

Jim Lampley 1:05:17 ... in that way, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 ... such an execution.

Jim Lampley 1:05:19 And partially because of stuff like that, that Douglas is a 42 to one underdog in Tokyo.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Yes. Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:05:25 When if you looked at the record for the preceding year, year and a half coming into Tokyo, Mike went the distance with James Bonecrusher Smith.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:05:34 Mike went the distance with Tony Tucker.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:05:36 Mike went the distance with James Quick Tillis.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 Yep.

Jim Lampley 1:05:39 There were scorers at ringside in Upstate New York who had Tillis as the winner in the fight.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:05:44 He went to the last 10 seconds with Jose Ribalta. He went the distance with Mitch Blood Green.

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:05:50 What did they all have in common? They were all taller than Mike.

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:05:53 Some of them have a right hand that would come over the top where he would have difficulty seeing the delivery. And, um, when you get to Douglas, best athlete of the group, former college basketball player with good feet, had a big right hand. I mean, looking back, pure logic, no way in the world Mike should be a 42 to one favorite against Buster Douglas.

Joe Rogan 1:06:17 But Buster Douglas had underperformed most of his career and had not been motivated. Then his mother dies.

Jim Lampley 1:06:23 That's correct, 100% correct. And you're right on point for saying it at this moment.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 Yeah. His mother died and then...

Jim Lampley 1:06:30 And that lit him up.

Joe Rogan 1:06:32 Lit him up and-

Jim Lampley 1:06:33 And-

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 ... never again.

Jim Lampley 1:06:33 And Mike was at the height-

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:06:36 ... of his differences with Robin Givens.

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 Right, right.

Jim Lampley 1:06:41 You know.

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 Constant turmoil and, yeah, and partying and, and feeling invincible.

Jim Lampley 1:06:47 Nothing that can do more damage to a good man than the wrong woman, right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:06:51 And she was the wrong woman.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 She was a wrong woman, period.

Jim Lampley 1:06:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 Yeah, that was a... (laughs) There's, there's, there's certain women out there like that, that they could tank your life. Yeah, and unfortunately-

Jim Lampley 1:07:05 OJ used to say to me, "If you wanna know what the daughter's gonna be like, look at the mother."

Joe Rogan 1:07:11 Mm.

Jim Lampley 1:07:11 And if you looked at her mother and the background relative-

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 Mm.

Jim Lampley 1:07:15 ... to Dave Winfield and all of that-

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:07:17 ... maybe you could've predicted. Or-

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 You probably could've.

Jim Lampley 1:07:19 Or as Merchant said in our on-camera prior to the Tubbs-Tokyo fight, Tyson versus Tubbs in Tokyo.

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:07:28 First fight I ever did on HBO. Larry had a line before the fight where he said, this is the beginning of the Robin thing, Cus had died, um, Jimmy Jacobs had died. No, Cus hadn't died, Jimmy Jacobs had died. At any rate, um-

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 With Kevin Ro-

Jim Lampley 1:07:45 Larry-

Joe Rogan 1:07:46 ... Kevin Rooney was already out then.

Jim Lampley 1:07:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:47 Right?

Jim Lampley 1:07:48 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:07:49 Larry said, "Since the beginning of organized boxing, heavyweight champions have often consorted with actresses and never to their benefit." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:08:07 It's a classic Merchant line-

Joe Rogan 1:08:09 Oh.

Jim Lampley 1:08:09 ... a- among many classic Merchant lines.

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Well-

Jim Lampley 1:08:11 I love him.

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 ... that was one of the best things about you and Merchant and just the entire commentary team at HBO, was that there's, you had these intelligent, articulate people involved in what many people think of as the most barbaric of all sports.

Jim Lampley 1:08:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:08:29 So, it defined it in a very different way.

Jim Lampley 1:08:32 That's the HBO way.

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:08:34 Elevate it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:08:34 Yeah, and that-

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 It, it certainly was elevated.

Jim Lampley 1:08:36 Eleva- and, and, and HBO's executives were smart enough to see that you can treat it as an intellectual event.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:08:43 And, and if you're doing it right, you'll get away with it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 But it has to be with the commentators. It, it, it frames everything. The same exact event with crude commentators is not the same experience, because you don't get that intelligent and articulate analysis in a guy like Larry Merchant, who'd been around boxing for his entire life and had a deep understanding of it, and you, and then it's even the funny back and forth banter between Larry and George Foreman when they would disagree on things. It was-

Jim Lampley 1:09:11 Brilliant.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 ... amazing.

Jim Lampley 1:09:12 Absolutely brilliant.

Joe Rogan 1:09:13 Amazing.

Jim Lampley 1:09:13 And I'm very proud to say, not blowing my own horn, but Larry and George in particular. There's a sports television columnist in the New York Daily News named Bob Raissman, R-A-I-S-S-M-A-N. And at some point in that arc, Raissman wrote in his TV sports column in the Daily News, "Lampley, Merchant, and Foreman are the greatest three-man broadcasting team in the history of sports television." Now, think about that.

Joe Rogan 1:09:44 That's amazing.

Jim Lampley 1:09:45 (laughs) This is not Monday Night Football. This is-

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:09:50 ... HBO boxing.

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:09:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:09:52 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:09:52 And so, he was saying, in effect, "This is better than Gifford, Meredith, and Cosell."

Joe Rogan 1:09:58 Wow.

Jim Lampley 1:09:59 Uh, and, you know, I was-

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 High praise.

Jim Lampley 1:10:01 ... I was very, very flattered by that. You know-

Joe Rogan 1:10:03 That's high, high praise.

Jim Lampley 1:10:03 ... which I should've been.

Joe Rogan 1:10:04 Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, having a great team like that, and, and it was also, there was the flow where you guys had worked together so often. You really knew-

Jim Lampley 1:10:14 And, and there was the between-round stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:10:18 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:10:18 What set Showtime and HBO apart from ABC, CBS, and NBC? No commercials.

Joe Rogan 1:10:25 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:10:25 And, and no commercials means you get one of the most meaningful and communicative parts of the narrative, which is what goes on in the corner between rounds.

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:10:37 So, you're watching Tyson-Douglas, for instance, and you see these two novice trainers-

Joe Rogan 1:10:44 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:10:44 ... struggling with a condom filled with water-

Joe Rogan 1:10:46 Right, right, right.

Jim Lampley 1:10:47 ... to try to-

Joe Rogan 1:10:47 No enswell.

Jim Lampley 1:10:48 ... to try to do something to ease the swelling-

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:10:51 ... in his eye.

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:10:51 No enswell.

Joe Rogan 1:10:52 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:10:52 Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 1:10:54 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:10:54 I remember Ray, Ray nearly fell off his chair when he saw that.

Joe Rogan 1:10:58 It's just so hard to believe that you could achieve the highest level of combat sports, the heavyweight champion of the world, and yet have this really rank, amateur corner.

Jim Lampley 1:11:10 There was so much that was taken for granted about Mike-

Joe Rogan 1:11:13 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:11:14 ... during that stage of his career.

Joe Rogan 1:11:15 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:11:16 The only person in that camp, once D'Amato died, the only person... And Jimmy died, the only person in that camp who was really aware of how vulnerable he could be was Mike.

Joe Rogan 1:11:27 Hm.

Jim Lampley 1:11:27 Mike, Mike was a boxing genius. Mike knew much more than those guys about how to prepare for a fight, etc., etc.

Joe Rogan 1:11:36 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:11:36 But again, before Tokyo, he was distracted.

Joe Rogan 1:11:40 Yeah, he was just-

Jim Lampley 1:11:41 Thoroughly distracted.

Joe Rogan 1:11:42 And it just, it comes with success, all the trappings. I mean, he was just constantly, you know...

Jim Lampley 1:11:49 You know Mike, right?

Joe Rogan 1:11:50 Yeah, yeah. Very well.

Jim Lampley 1:11:51 Have you had him in here?

Joe Rogan 1:11:52 Oh, a couple times, yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:11:53 One of the most lovable people in the world.

Joe Rogan 1:11:55 I love him to death, yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:11:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:55 He's great.

Jim Lampley 1:11:56 You can't not love Mike-

Joe Rogan 1:11:58 No.

Jim Lampley 1:11:58 ... if, if you know him.

Joe Rogan 1:11:59 No, if you know him, I, I mean, it... The first time I met him, it's, it's hard to believe he's really in the room. You're like, you're like, "I can't believe he's real." Like, he's right there, this is Mike Tyson.

Jim Lampley 1:12:07 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:08 'Cause me, as a child, I remember when I was a kid, when I, I mean, I guess I wasn't a child, I'm only a year younger than him, but when he lost to Buster Douglas, I didn't watch it until after the fight. I watched a replay of it, and I still expected him to win.

Jim Lampley 1:12:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:24 You know how crazy that is?

Jim Lampley 1:12:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:26 Like, that's the kind of aura that Mike Tyson had.

Jim Lampley 1:12:28 So, you've read in the paper and on the web that he's lost, but you're still expecting him to win?

Joe Rogan 1:12:32 I remember I heard about it in a gas station-... someone told me in a gas station. I was-

Jim Lampley 1:12:38 And I can't believe this is true.

Joe Rogan 1:12:39 I was getting gas and I heard, "Did you hear Mike Tyson got knocked out?" And I remember pumping gas, going, "What the fuck are you talking about?" Like, "What? Like, Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson? What? For real?"

Jim Lampley 1:12:52 So, we talked about the call of Foreman Moorer and where that call came from. The other call that is on that same level, in terms of, you know, people remembering and stuff like that, is that call.

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:13:06 And you just came very close to identically articulating what my call was. Because, you know, I'm watching the rounds in Tokyo, and I've arrived in Tokyo with a firm opinion that Mike is gonna knock this guy out in one, two, three rounds, something like that. And as the rounds go on and you're watching the debacle unfold, the, you know, water in the rubber glove to try to stop the swelling and stuff like that, you realize that the preparation might not be all there. And Douglas is getting more confident, and Douglas is landing his jab, et cetera, et cetera.

Joe Rogan 1:13:42 And hooking off the jab.

Jim Lampley 1:13:43 And hooking off the jab. And, I mean, it, it... People think that he knocked him out with a right hand. It was the left hook that-

Joe Rogan 1:13:50 Mm.

Jim Lampley 1:13:50 ... that did the damage. The left hook was thunderous and Mike-

Joe Rogan 1:13:53 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:13:53 ... stumbled to his side, and then... But at any rate, I'm sitting there in Tokyo, it's 10:30 or 11:00 o'clock in the morning. There are 34,000 people seated around me, making no noise whatsoever.

Joe Rogan 1:14:11 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:14:12 The culture of a-

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:14:12 ... Japanese sports event.

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:14:14 It's as though they are at an opera.

Joe Rogan 1:14:16 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:14:16 You know? And that's just cultural. It's the way they are. And as that count is rising, five, six, seven, and it's abundantly clear that Mike's not gonna get up. And I'm thinking, "Oh my God, what am I gonna say about this?" The very first live fight I ever attended was the biggest upset in boxing history. And now, here in front of me, 12, 14 feet away, is the result that's going to supplant that as the biggest upset in boxing history.

Joe Rogan 1:14:46 Wow.

Jim Lampley 1:14:47 So, what do I say? And I've told this story many times. If you've heard it, I apologize for repeating, but I was developing a golf relationship with the greatest actor of my generation, Jack Nicholson, who became a close friend and later sur- saved my career, but that's another story. And I had asked Jack on the golf course about two or three weeks before Tokyo. I said, "Jack, when you're going to the set to deliver the fulcrum line in the movie, when you're going to the set to do the one thing that everybody in the audience is going to remember, when you're getting ready to go deliver 'You can't handle the truth,' what is it you have on your mind? What's your mantra?" He said, "Lamp, same thing I've been saying to myself ever since I first went to acting class: Don't overact."

Joe Rogan 1:15:40 Mm.

Jim Lampley 1:15:41 So, I'm in Tokyo, the count reaches four or five, and I hear, in the back of my mind, Jack's voice, "Don't overact." And that call became, "Mike Tyson has been knocked out," in about that tone of voice. I wanted to make it as matter-of-fact as possible, because there was nothing I could do-

Joe Rogan 1:16:02 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:16:02 ... to elevate it, by screaming-

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:16:04 ... or shouting or-

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 Right, right, right.

Jim Lampley 1:16:05 ... delivering any kind of window dressing, et cetera. It was what it was.

Joe Rogan 1:16:10 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:16:11 "Mike Tyson has been knocked out." That was that.

Joe Rogan 1:16:13 I remember that.

Jim Lampley 1:16:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:15 Now that you said it, I remember that. Wow.

Jim Lampley 1:16:17 Well, thank you.

Joe Rogan 1:16:19 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:16:19 I appreciate because you remember.

Joe Rogan 1:16:20 Because it was so... It was energetic but matter-of-fact.

Jim Lampley 1:16:23 Well, there it is. ... two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight-

Joe Rogan 1:16:33 He's, he wa-... It's over. It's over.

Jim Lampley 1:16:34 Mike Tyson has been knocked out. All right. So, I did shout a little bit.

Joe Rogan 1:16:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Jim Lampley 1:16:39 I did shout it a little bit. All right. I give-

Joe Rogan 1:16:41 But just a little bit. No, it was perfect. Boy.

Jim Lampley 1:16:41 I give myself too much credit for the matter of fact, but that of course was... That's my younger voice.

Joe Rogan 1:16:46 Yes.

Jim Lampley 1:16:46 It was a little bit higher.

Joe Rogan 1:16:48 That was... What a, what an event.

Jim Lampley 1:16:49 Octavio Maran was the name of the referee.

Joe Rogan 1:16:52 I just remember Buster Douglas winning that fight, thinking, "Man, what ha- what happens to him now? Now he's the king of the world."

Jim Lampley 1:16:58 Well, what happens to him, of course, is that he goes on a celebration rampage.

Joe Rogan 1:17:03 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:03 He puts on, oh, I don't know, 40, 50 pounds-

Joe Rogan 1:17:07 Yep.

Jim Lampley 1:17:07 ... something like that. He tries to train them off, but not effectively enough.

Joe Rogan 1:17:11 And then he gets knocked out by Holyfield.

Jim Lampley 1:17:12 He goes into the ring against Holyfield and Holyfield delivers-

Joe Rogan 1:17:15 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:15 ... one left hook.

Joe Rogan 1:17:16 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:16 One perfect counter left hook in the first round, and we're out of there.

Joe Rogan 1:17:19 Yeah. That's what it was? It was a left hook? I thought it was a right hand.

Jim Lampley 1:17:23 Might have been a right hand.

Joe Rogan 1:17:24 I don't remember.

Jim Lampley 1:17:24 I could be wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:17:25 See if you can find it.

Jim Lampley 1:17:26 Might have been a right hand. Well, uh, they'll find it.

Joe Rogan 1:17:28 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:29 Jamie'll find it. But, uh, yeah. He just never reached those heights again. That was it. He just never... I mean-

Jim Lampley 1:17:38 Money.

Joe Rogan 1:17:38 Yeah. I mean, also, like, the-

Jim Lampley 1:17:40 Money.

Joe Rogan 1:17:40 All the- yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:41 Money, food.

Joe Rogan 1:17:42 Food.

Jim Lampley 1:17:43 He, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:43 He got real fat. Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:44 He was an addictive eater.

Joe Rogan 1:17:45 Here it is.

Jim Lampley 1:17:46 Okay, let's see.

Joe Rogan 1:17:47 On the right.

Jim Lampley 1:17:47 Right hand. You're right.

Joe Rogan 1:17:48 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:49 Uh, then there were... Then there was a left hook following, but the right-

Joe Rogan 1:17:52 I don't think the left hook landed.

Jim Lampley 1:17:52 ... the right hand is the one that did it.

Joe Rogan 1:17:54 I think the left hook missed.

Jim Lampley 1:17:55 Yeah, the left hook missed.

Joe Rogan 1:17:56 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:56 You're right.

Joe Rogan 1:17:56 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:17:57 All right. So, one for Rogan.

Joe Rogan 1:17:59 (laughs) No, it's-

Jim Lampley 1:18:00 Zero for Lampley.

Joe Rogan 1:18:01 It's, it's cemented in my mind because I remember, uh... What year was that?

Jim Lampley 1:18:06 '89.

Joe Rogan 1:18:06 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:18:08 Well, it's 1990 when-

Joe Rogan 1:18:11 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:18:11 ... Buster knocks out Mike.

Joe Rogan 1:18:13 Was it?

Jim Lampley 1:18:13 Yeah. Uh, no, no-

Joe Rogan 1:18:15 '90? No.

Jim Lampley 1:18:16 No.

Joe Rogan 1:18:16 Had to be earlier than that.

Jim Lampley 1:18:18 Huh? No, it was.

Joe Rogan 1:18:19 Was it?

Jim Lampley 1:18:19 It was, it was '90.

Joe Rogan 1:18:20 Was it?

Jim Lampley 1:18:20 It was early... February, February 10, 1990.

Joe Rogan 1:18:22 '90. Wow.

Jim Lampley 1:18:24 February 10 in the United States. February 11 in Tokyo.

Joe Rogan 1:18:27 Okay, right. And so this is probably '91 then? Then he-

Jim Lampley 1:18:32 It might have been '90.

Joe Rogan 1:18:33 Yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:18:34 Same year as 10- And I, I think it, I think it was later in 1990.

Joe Rogan 1:18:37 Yeah. I, I just remember the... You know when, when someone does something extraordinary and rise to the occasion, I always root on them. I always root for them. Like, "Wow, he's gonna turn his life around. He's gonna be great." So now you remember-

Jim Lampley 1:18:48 So now you're rooting for Buster to beat Holyfield?

Joe Rogan 1:18:49 Oh, yeah. Well, and also, I was a giant Holyfield fan too. So it was one of those conflicted fights. And Holyfield w- to me was extraordinary, because what he did with Macky Shilstone in his training-

Jim Lampley 1:19:00 October 25, 1990.

Joe Rogan 1:19:01 There it is. 19-

Jim Lampley 1:19:03 This time I was right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:19:04 Yeah. It was one of those things where Holyfield was one of the first guys that really embraced weightlifting. And, uh, I remember as a, a young fighter, I was always told, "If you lift weights, it'll slow you down. Weights, weights will make you stiff. Weights will slow you down. You should never lift weights." And so I listened to that, and I, I never lifted weights. And then, um, I remember watching Holyfield train for his heavyweight debut, thinking, "God," I'd member, I remember his fight with Dwight Mohammed Qawi. Remember that fight?

Jim Lampley 1:19:35 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:19:35 Incredible fight. Like, that was-

Jim Lampley 1:19:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:19:37 ... when he was a cruiserweight, and I was thinking, "How is this guy gonna go up to heavyweight? How is this gonna work?" And then-

Jim Lampley 1:19:42 Strong mind.

Joe Rogan 1:19:43 Oh, yes.

Jim Lampley 1:19:44 Very strong mind.

Joe Rogan 1:19:45 Un- unquestionably.

Jim Lampley 1:19:46 You want, you wanna see Evander do something?

Joe Rogan 1:19:48 Mm-hmm.

Jim Lampley 1:19:48 Tell him he can't do it.

Joe Rogan 1:19:49 Oh, for sure. Yeah. But also, one of the first applications of real modern science in regards to strength and conditioning.

Jim Lampley 1:19:58 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:19:58 What Macky Shilstone was doing was, like, very revolutionary.

Jim Lampley 1:20:01 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:20:01 And to see him do all these crazy strength and cardio routines, and, and putting all that mass on, and seeing all the doubters and naysayers and-

Jim Lampley 1:20:09 So which other fighter looked at that and realized who Macky was? Bernard Hopkins.

Joe Rogan 1:20:14 Right. Well-

Jim Lampley 1:20:16 Genius.

Joe Rogan 1:20:17 He worked with quite a few fighters, didn't he, Macky?

Jim Lampley 1:20:19 Hmm?

Joe Rogan 1:20:19 I believe Macky worked with quite a few fighters after that whole... I mean he-

Jim Lampley 1:20:22 Oh, yeah. He worked with quite a few fighters.

Joe Rogan 1:20:23 Everybody saw, like, that the results were there.

Jim Lampley 1:20:25 Right. Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:20:26 So everybody kind of changed their opinion on that kind of stuff.

Jim Lampley 1:20:28 Did he work with any MMA guys?

Joe Rogan 1:20:30 I don't know. I don't... Probably. There's probably a few.

Jim Lampley 1:20:33 It makes sense.

Joe Rogan 1:20:33 Yeah. I mean, MMA guys are l- I mean, this is... With MMA you have the grappling aspect of it. With, without strength and conditioning, you really can't compete. It's not really possible at this day and age. E- everyone uses strength and conditioning. There's very few fighters that just train using skill, just, just t- train skills. Like George, George St-Pierre did that for a certain period of his career.

Jim Lampley 1:20:55 I wonder if there's anybody left in boxing who, who trains just using the gym skills. There were c- lot of them when I was first involved in the sport who would never have touched a weight.

Joe Rogan 1:21:04 Right.

Jim Lampley 1:21:04 You know, they-

Joe Rogan 1:21:05 Oh, yeah.

Jim Lampley 1:21:05 They subscribed totally to the notion that that was