EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,306 words- 0:00 – 1:33
New psilocybin field guide + the scale of the “mushroom revolution”
- PSPaul Stamets
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Are we up? Yeah. Put them headphones on. Let's rock and roll, Paul. Good to see you, sir.
- PSPaul Stamets
Good to see you, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's happening? How you doing?
- PSPaul Stamets
I'm-
- JRJoe Rogan
Book, book number eight, huh?
- PSPaul Stamets
Book number eight, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who would have known? There's so many books to be written on mushrooms.
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, this is state of the art taxonomy, Psilocybin Mushrooms in Their Natural Habitat. It covers 60 species all over the world, but it also shows not only historical use, which people are surprised, they've been using it in India, in Europe, in South Africa a new species was just found, psilocybe mahlouti. But the Basotho and Lesotho, uh, province, had been using it, obviously, for hundreds of years. We know this because they have songs. So it's really interesting when indigenous people have using psilocybin mushrooms and scientists, quote, "discover" them-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and give them a Latin binomial. But the psilocybin mushroom revolution is happening all over the world right now. I never expected it to be this big. And the RAND report came out this past year, 3% of Americans tripped on psilocybin in 2023. That's-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's only three?
- PSPaul Stamets
Three percent. That's eight million, I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, (laughs) I would agree with you because how many people would admit it, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
How many... Probably under-reporting, not over-reporting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
- PSPaul Stamets
So it seems to be, uh, I think a revolution for the freedom of consciousness and it's crossing all political boundaries, all religious boundaries.
- 1:33 – 3:53
Psychedelics for PTSD and moral injury (veterans, law enforcement, doctors)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's happening here in Texas, for sure, because of the ibogaine initiative and what's happening with, uh, Governor Rick Perry, who was former Republican governor of Texas, who is all in on this.
- PSPaul Stamets
He's a, he's a great guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
He really is.
- PSPaul Stamets
I've talked to him backstage a few times, and he's the type of person that I really admire because even though we may have political differences or f- different cultural backgrounds, there's, we're joined together with a common purpose of trying to help people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, he's not ideologically c- ideologically captured. Like, he realized that he was wrong, and that his position on this was based on ignorance, so he educated himself-
- PSPaul Stamets
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and completely turned around, did a 180, and, and now is an advocate and has helped a lot of people. There's, uh, I mean, it's tremendous benefit to veterans and people with PTSD, and you know, coming back from the war, and it's one of the only things that's been shown to really get these people straight.
- PSPaul Stamets
That and psilocybin and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
... my heart really goes out, and this is, uh, I'm sort of a little left of center so my friends will be surprised, but my heart goes out to law enforcement. Can you imagine stopping a car on a stormy night at 2:00 in the morning-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Tint the windows.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and the window, the window comes down-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and you have two seconds to make a decision?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
You do that hundreds of times-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
... the likelihood of having one mistake is very high, and having one very bad day define your life for the rest of your life is not right.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- PSPaul Stamets
Because then, if you can't resolve those issues as a soldier, as a law enforcement, as a doctor who makes a mistake, if you can't get through that, that s- turmoil, that stress-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
... the anger that then can emanate out from your s- anger at yourself to other people-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and this is what psilocybin and ibogaine and other psychedelics I think really do. They help people forgive themselves and become better people. And once you forgive yourself and become a better person, then everyone is excited about the fact that you've changed. And...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And imagine the world that we could be living in if this experience was available to so many of the people that are committing crimes. So many of these people who have never had a psycho- any kind of a psychedelic experience, have never really confronted their own reality in that way, how many of them would change their ways?
- PSPaul Stamets
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
I would imagine a great deal.
- 3:53 – 7:26
Prevention for the “near normals”: crime, addiction, and societal ROI
- PSPaul Stamets
You bring up a very important point that I've been thinking about a lot. We talk about using psychedelics and psilocybin and o- other substances for treating people who have trauma, you know, mental illness, you know, addiction issues. But what about the near normals? All of us are somewhat on the spectrum, and we go back and forth depending on our daily, monthly, yearly activities, events, et cetera. But what about prevention?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
If the return on an investment is to reduce addiction and crime, and all the other collateral damage that's associated with it, then it would save hundreds of billions of dollars. Hundreds of billions of dollars.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
Psilocybin should be made free, I think, you know, as a citizen's right to have access, and the government should pay for it. It would massively reduce our national debt, it would make our better society. But that's not gonna happen, right? That's a dream.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I don't know if that's not gonna happen. It's just not gonna happen tomorrow. You know, I think we're on a path, if you look at where we stand with marijuana, for instance. Like, look at Las Vegas, as a great example, because I remember in the '90s and when we would go to Las Vegas for the UFC in the, like, I guess, uh, I guess, actually it was in the 2000s, it was highly illegal. And, you know, I'd remember the stories from the '70s where people were locked up for their entire lives-
- PSPaul Stamets
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for, you know, like, an ounce of marijuana in Vegas. They had zero tolerance for it. And I always wondered what that was about, whether that was, uh, uh, an anti-hippie thing or whether it was in response to the alcohol lobby. Vegas obviously sells a lot of alcohol, and anything that would cut back on their profits... You know, this was, we, we talked about this the other day. The study showed that amongst young people, alcohol consumption is down significantly. Isn't it down by, like, 25%?
- NANarrator
I would say so, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which, by the... What's that?
- NANarrator
I s- I don't... Uh, it's down. I just don't know the number.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which, by the way, a great thing. You know, that's a, that's a good thing, but it's not a good thing for profits, and so... But my point is that-... how many states now have cannabis as completely legal?
- PSPaul Stamets
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's, like, 19.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah, it's more than a dozen, for sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I think it's ni- uh, somewhere around there. And then you have medical use-
- PSPaul Stamets
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... which is in many, many more states. It's just a matter of time before the people in the federal government realize this is a losing battle.
- PSPaul Stamets
Indeed. And think about the guilt those law enforcement officers must feel, and certainly they must feel, I would hope so, that they know they put somebody in prison for 30 years for an ounce of marijuana when it's now legal in those states.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
Uh, how do they reconcile that?
- JRJoe Rogan
How do they? Yeah. Well, I mean, PTSD amongst law enforcement is something that's very rarely discussed. We talk about it a lot with soldiers, but one of my friends who was a former Austin PD told me that you see more in your line of duty in a police department than... More death, more terrible, terrible things, than he ever did when he was in combat.
- PSPaul Stamets
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's just... It's, like, every day. Every day, you're dealing with shootouts. Every day, you're dealing with stabbings. Every day, you're dealing with horrific crimes.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah, it's... Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's just... Your brain is just overrun with this.
- PSPaul Stamets
And with firefighters, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
They're the... Oftentimes, the first responders or the first... My partner's a medical doctor-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 7:26 – 8:35
Media manipulation, community-building, and why mushroom hunting unites people
- PSPaul Stamets
And... But, I mean, this is where it's so important that we come together as a society because I th- really believe that 98% of people are good and 2% of people are assholes. And I think the assholes can become good people if they have a psychedelic experience. I did- really think there's progress right now. So much of the media and clickbait journalism, they amplify the extraordinary and things that get eyeballs and attention.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
But more and more, I think people are... They become more... Have greater wisdom about how they're being manipulated by the media.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
And people come together and... You know, it's... So, that's why I like mushroom hunting. Mushroom hunting brings people together.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
You go out hunting, you have this eureka experience, you don't talk politics, you're excited about the species that you hope to find, and f- find ones you don't. But they become like friends after a while.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
When you find a chanterelle, you find a shaggy mane, you f- you find a psilocybe, a psilocybin mushroom, there are, you know... There are... Th- that chance encounter, that eureka experience in sharing it than sharing eating the mushrooms, whether edible or otherwise, I mean, it brings a community of interest together. It's just a really fun thing to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 8:35 – 11:55
iNaturalist and the rise of citizen science (and how new species get found)
- PSPaul Stamets
And there's something I wanted to mention, Joe, that's really important. I d- uh, have been to a lot of conferences. I just came back from the Psychedelic Science Conference in Denver, our friend, Rick Doblin, 8,500 people there. Um, but what I really find a- an extraordinary way of taking i- iPhones and droids and all these kids are just addicted to their phones, right? They're not going out in nature. So, there is a... Called nature deficit syndrome. It's actually affecting people. But there's a... There is an app that I'm just in love with called iNaturalist. It was taught by... Uh, uh, uh, created by a guy named Scott. He just gave a TED Talk that was released yesterday. iNaturalist, you can take a phone and you can go out and you can look at a flower, a frog, a mineral, a mushroom. You photograph it, you upload it into the cloud of iNaturalist, and they have all these experts and a- amateurs trying to tell you what it is. There's a great little debate going back and forth, "No, you're right." "No, you're right." And then when it hits research grade, it's when a group of experts come together and says, "Yep, you have Coprinus comatus." "Yep, you have Boletus edulis." They agree on identification, but it has fueled the scientific community with all sorts of these citizen scientists finding new species.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
And it brings people into nature, gets kids excited, and they... And then you can go to iNaturalist right now and you can look around your house or this place to see the reports of birds and mushrooms and things. I just went on iNaturalist yesterday and Psilocybe cubensis, the golden tops, grow around Austin. Who knew?
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
You know, because they've been reported. Now, you have zones of privacy, so you don't have to tell them exactly where the mushroom is. And that's probably not a good thing to do if it's a psilocybin mushroom. But you can make a peripheral zone of anonymity. It could be within two miles, five miles, 10 miles, you know, and that way you can do the report. Uh, but some of them have high specificity with lat-longs within a few inches. But it's so exciting in the field of biology and mineralogy and ornithology, et cetera, to have all these citizen scientists out there with their phones. And then every year, all over the world now, there's called, uh, bi- uh, BioBlitzes where several hundred people literally come together, they'll go into a park, they have all their iPhones and droids, and they a- they photograph everything and they upload it to iNaturalist to look at species diversity. This has revolutionized the field of biology. I think it's... Revolutionizes bringing children and young people back into nature. And you then... You build a community. You're not talking about politics, you're talking about nature and, "What did you find?" And, "Holy moly, I never knew there was a blue mushroom," or something like that. So it's, um... It's inspiring to see the kids get so excited about this, and adults. And so this is... You know, I'm a-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's very cool.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah, very cool.
- JRJoe Rogan
How many new species get discovered?
- PSPaul Stamets
Oh, thousands. Literally thou-
- JRJoe Rogan
Every year?
- PSPaul Stamets
Thousands every year now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- PSPaul Stamets
Thousands and thousand. There's 223 known species of psilocybin mushrooms. And about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
... I'd say 10, 10 of them in the past two years has come from, uh, citizen scientists, quote unquote, "amateurs" who found it, who uploaded it to iNaturalist. And-
- 11:55 – 14:41
How to identify psilocybin mushrooms + why they’re “hiding in plain sight”
- JRJoe Rogan
So, if they find a new species, like, what... How do they determine what... If it's a completely new species, how do they determine that it's psilocybin? How do they determine where it's from?
- PSPaul Stamets
Excellent question. Um, the psilocybin species localized in the genus Psilocybe, which is has the most psilocybin species, we just know from genetic associations that if they're in the clade, the, the group that has psilocybin species, and the DNA analysis shows that they fit right into this cluster, then we have high confidence. But if a mushroom has gills, r- you know, the, and it's, and it bruises bluish, and it has purple-brown spores, those three things need to be true, then 95% probability it's a psilocybin mushroom. What species it is becomes more debatable.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
But psilocybin mushrooms are very hard to find, with the exception of the golden top, and there's something called Penelope sinensis. They grow on pastures, they're easier to find. But most of these psilocybin mushrooms are hidden in the landscape. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
How so?
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, I just had a 70-year-old man write me from Vermont, and he has found Psilocybe serilipes, and he wrote a classic letter to me that many people have written. "I have looked for these mushrooms for years. I couldn't find them. And then I found a few and I looked around and they were everywhere. They're hiding in plain sight." And so now he knows with Psilocybe serilipes in Vermont, he knows, it's just, "I can't believe how obvious they are to me and how un-obvious they were to me before." When I took Malco- Michael Pollan out on a mushroom hunt, and w- in his, in his book How to Change Your Mind, when I said, I took two steps out of this little cabin we were at, and I go, "There's one." He goes, "Where?" I go, "Right there." He goes, "Where?" I go, "Right there, Michael." And then I picked it up and he goes, "WTF, how can you tell this is a psilocybin mushroom?" And I go, "Well, it's like-"
- JRJoe Rogan
You're kind of an expert.
- PSPaul Stamets
"... well, it's like meeting a friend."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PSPaul Stamets
"It's like meeting you. I know Joe Rogan. Right? I know your face, I know your personality. I'm reacquainted with you." But psilocybin mushrooms-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wait a minute. So like seeing it, you're reacquainted with it?
- PSPaul Stamets
Seeing it repeatedly and being familiarized with it gives you a memory of it, a pattern recognition, so when it goes away, you still have that pattern recognition memory to memory map back onto the landscape around you. It's true with morels too. This is a very hap- common thing. People don't see morels and they find one or two and then suddenly they start to jump out of the landscape. It's how your brain works with pattern recognition.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-huh.
- PSPaul Stamets
So many of these species that are hidden in the landscape, but they're actually quite common, but you just can't see them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Got it. And you're accustomed to seeing them, so... but you're not saying like that you feel something from them. You're, you're just saying recognize them visually.
- 14:41 – 20:16
Mazatec tradition, syncretism, and psilocybin’s compatibility with religion
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, you're waxing into the spiritual. Many-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that's what I'm asking.
- PSPaul Stamets
... y- many people feel that the mushrooms call to them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
So this is true in the Mazatec, uh, tradition. You know, um, in my book I, I go deeply into the Mazatec, um, heritage of using psilocybin mushrooms, and, um, one of the things was, it really embedded with, with Christianity after the Spaniards came 1516 and 1519, 1521 they brought in cattle. And, um, and very quickly, uh, Christianity swept through Mesoamerica, the s- specifically in Mexico. And, um, there is a, a friend of mine, um, uh, who's a, uh, who's a PhD, uh, called, uh, uh, Joe To- uh, Tori was in Oaxaca and just found a, in a church, a cross from the 15th century. B- b- b- 1500s, I mean. And soon after the Conquistador, when the Conquistadors and Spanish arrived, and in the center of the cross are psilocybin mushrooms. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- PSPaul Stamets
... so Christianity has a long, deep-rooted history with psilocybin mushroom use in Mesoamerica.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's that ancient, um, depiction of Adam and Eve from, uh...
- PSPaul Stamets
That's, that's more debatable in my mind.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it?
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah, but here, here it is. Thank you. This is, uh, f- from, um, J- Joe, uh, La Torre's, uh, work.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, look at that.
- PSPaul Stamets
That's a basket-
- JRJoe Rogan
With mushrooms popping out of it.
- PSPaul Stamets
... with three mushrooms in the, in the basket. And there, there is Psilocybe mexicana, um, and so the mushrooms are phenotypically correct, but there's clearly mushrooms in the basket. Can y- can the other slide show with a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you-
- PSPaul Stamets
... with a full cross? Joey, I'm not sure, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you know Jack Herrer?
- PSPaul Stamets
... uh, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
When Jack was alive, before he died, one of the things that he was working on was a book connecting psilocybin mushrooms and Christianity.
- PSPaul Stamets
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he had this massive collection of ancient images, paintings, all these different things. A lot of them were these religious depictions of people that were naked dancing under the, like, it w- was like a transparent mushroom shape and they were dancing. So like something that would indicate that they were under the trance, and they were dancing.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. This is, um, this is an example where there's, it's so many different... s- you, you could have 100 different potential representations.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
They're not all gonna be correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
The one that could...
- PSPaul Stamets
But, but a few of them are. And this example here-
- JRJoe Rogan
But one that clearly is.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and, and i- and in the Mazatec, uh, tradition is called, um, it's called syncretism when you have a foreign influence, in this case a religion, coming into an indigenous people, they merge, and they still continue their indigenous practices under the umbrella of protection, in this case, of Christianity. But in the Mazatec tradition, they bel- they believe the tears of Christ is where the mushrooms would appear.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- 20:16 – 21:25
Christian and ancient iconography debates: Adam & Eve fresco, halos, and symbolism
- JRJoe Rogan
th- of, uh, Adam and Eve, I'm, I'm curious to see wha- what do you think is debatable about that? Can you pull up that fresco? There's, uh, an ancient fresco, I believe it's from France, of, uh, Adam and Eve, which w- supposedly is the tree of life, but really looks like some sort of a mushroom plant.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yes, it's been postulated, uh, by R. Gordon Wasson-
- JRJoe Rogan
I shouldn't say plant-
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in front of you, especially.
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, thank you, thank you very much.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That, that doesn't look like mushrooms?
- PSPaul Stamets
They do look like mushrooms. And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at, like, I couldn't imagine it being anything else.
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, I mean, here's an example that basically, artists, uh, become, um, authors of field guides in art.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
You know, how much can you tell to the public without violating your oath of secrecy, um, and so, symbology. But, yes, there's a cap and a stem and they come up in clusters. Um, that looks like a psilocybin mushroom. Some people say it's Amanita muscaria 'cause of the dots, but those of us who have grown Psilocybe cubensis, when they're very fresh, they have dots on them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
They're very ephemeral, they got washed away. So, yes, and I-
- JRJoe Rogan
And you would see the dots, obviously, if it's still in the ground?
- 21:25 – 29:29
Ancient Egypt: Hathor imagery, blue lotus, climate change, and a testable hypothesis
- PSPaul Stamets
If it's in the ground, it's very fresh, um, but psilocybin mushrooms bruise blueish. And so, this is where we could get lost in a debate of interpretation, but all these representations are, are not false. Some of these representations are extremely strong based on the evidence. And, for instance, the psilocybin mushrooms that we found on the pyramids in Egypt-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
... they are clearly s- psilocybes. Not myself, but other Egyptologists-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
... have also published on this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Find those, Jamie. Tho- th- those are fascinating.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because, um, I don't think until fairly recently, within the last few decades, it was understood that they were using psilocybin. I think there was some confusion as to what, if anything, like, they were drinking the blue lotus, I think, was one of the-
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, the blue lotus is a water lily.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
And where do water lilies grow?
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is. Like-
- PSPaul Stamets
The water lilies grow near ponds, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so cle- clearly psilocybin that-
- PSPaul Stamets
And this is the h- uh, Goddess Hathor, the goddess of the cow, by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
There you go.
- PSPaul Stamets
The goddess of the cow. And th- that's a vase, and anyone who's grown oyster mushrooms or psilocybin mushrooms know that you can put the substrate into a vase like that with the openings and mushrooms will come out of the holes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
And so that natural culture technique of collecting cow patty, so cows go to ponds to drink, the blue lot- lotus grows in ponds.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
The blue lotus is blue, the psilocybin mushrooms turn blue. The mushrooms are golden in color, gold and blue colors are sacred in, in Egyptology and in An- ancient E- Egyptian culture. So now, I was not the first person to discover this. Actually, I saw this from a, an article that was published by Azim Abdel, um, a friend of mine, a mycologist in Egypt who presented it, uh, at a conference. And then-
- JRJoe Rogan
How long ago was this?
- PSPaul Stamets
This was, well, this is over 2,000 years of age.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, no, I mean, when they-
- PSPaul Stamets
2016.
- JRJoe Rogan
... this, when they brought this to the... 2016?
- PSPaul Stamets
2016.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's kind of crazy, isn't it?
- PSPaul Stamets
It is, and then, um, Kalindi, the great Kalindi from Detroit, um, he unfortunately died of COVID, um, but he also, from his African heritage, also believed that, you know, and he was rediscovering his African heritage, and this is called re-indigenization, rediscovering that which your ancestors practiced even though the linear transition, uh, of knowledge may have been cut.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 29:29 – 32:50
Cosmic perspective: consciousness, mortality, and psilocybin as an ‘expander’
- PSPaul Stamets
You know, and that's, that's the other thing that I think psilocybin has really informed me is that Joe Rogan and Paul Stamets are talking, Jamie is there, but we have such a thin slice of reality. And when you're on psilocybin, the, the unanimity of universal consciousness to be involved in something you realize is so large.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
Did you see the, the galactic images from the Rubin Telescope that came out yesterday?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I did not.
- PSPaul Stamets
Millions and millions of new galaxies, literally millions of new galaxies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
I think 2,100 new asteroids.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- PSPaul Stamets
In near-Earth orbit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, fun.
- PSPaul Stamets
Oh, fun. Oops.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's already 900,000 of them.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. So, there's... but this has just happened-
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
But this is...
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. If there were any of those people out there-
- JRJoe Rogan
I wonder how many people are tripping balls.
- PSPaul Stamets
... the Telescop- just got r- released, the largest telescope in the world, and there are millions of galaxies. Millions of galaxies. And so, from my experience, which I will admit, I came from a Christian background, so my first times on psilocybin mushrooms is very Christ-oriented.
- JRJoe Rogan
God, look at it.
- PSPaul Stamets
And then as I got more and more into the psilocybin experience, I realized that this is a...... just this concept that we live, uh, in this great expanse, and I'm a assemble, assembly of molecules, so are you. We didn't exist before we were born. You know, we will disassemble, decompose, and we'll go back into the cosmic dust, and this is part of the continuum of existence. We all exist, all the time-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I ask-
- PSPaul Stamets
... forever.
- JRJoe Rogan
... forever. Can I ask you this? What do you think happens to consciousness?
- PSPaul Stamets
I think that, think from a mechanical perspective, we might be looking at, have the constructs of consciousness that, uh, is analogous to the, to the Model T Ford, you know? And I think as we expand our knowledge sets and become more informed, we see how much there is out there. I think that psilocybin mushrooms and other psychedelics, and this is why I think religions are very much attracted to this, is a portal to expand the horizons of your imaginations, that there is a, there is a consciousness that far exceeds that which you can comprehend. My, my mother was a charismatic Christian, and, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
What is a, what is a charismatic Christian?
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, she's an evangelical.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 32:50 – 1:02:40
AI and “random acts of kindness”: training models toward ethics (and away from extinction)
- PSPaul Stamets
And that is artificial intelligence.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
And I know you've spent a lot of time on this, but I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, recently.
- PSPaul Stamets
I want to introduce a new concept.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- PSPaul Stamets
Okay? I'm a Deadhead.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
Whoo.
- JRJoe Rogan
Could never tell. (laughs)
- PSPaul Stamets
Never tell. (laughs) I went to the Sphere, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
I bet it was amazing.
- PSPaul Stamets
It was, uh, incredible.
- JRJoe Rogan
The visuals were-
- PSPaul Stamets
It's-
- JRJoe Rogan
... insane.
- PSPaul Stamets
Fantastic.
- JRJoe Rogan
What a great venue to see that and do it.
- PSPaul Stamets
It was a great venue. It just revolutionized music festivals, I think, forever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
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- PSPaul Stamets
So there is, uh, I, I bought, there's something called Postcards from Earth, and I'd heard a lot about it. It's a matinee in the afternoon before the big concerts. And it's great flying through around the Earth, through the old growth forests and volcanoes. Um, so we went there and we got a early bird ticket, which allowed us to talk to an AI robot. So I thought, "Oh, this is my opportunity." Now two years ago, I got the Disruptor Award at synBio BETA, 2,200 nerdy scientists. I mean these are top nerds. (laughs) And I was so surprised that I got the Disruptor Award, uh, 'cause I'm kind of a natural products kind of guy, um, but I was very honored. So I pos- I posited the question then, will ... uh, will ... AI may never be able to write an algorithm for random acts of kindness. And I'm thinking back my life, maybe yours, maybe Jamie's, maybe most of these people out there, you're here today because of random acts of kindness. Your great-grandfather, great-grandmother, your father, your grandfather, grandmother, is that reaching out of a hand in a time of need by a random act of kindness from a stranger that probably created a lot of relationships. And random acts of kindness was not transactional, where you genuinely feel something for someone, not expecting to have something in return-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and you've reached out. I think that's why many, many, if not most people, their lineages can be traced to a random act of kindness. So then I went to Las Vegas, went to the Sphere. I had this idea, "Guys, you know, I can ask this robot." So I asked this robot.
- JRJoe Rogan
What- what robot?
- PSPaul Stamets
It was a, I, I think it was a ChatGPT run, but I'm, I'm not sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was at the Sphere?
- PSPaul Stamets
At the Sphere.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 1:02:40 – 1:18:33
Psilocybin, neuroplasticity, and the updated case for the ‘stoned ape’ idea
- PSPaul Stamets
It just keeps on getting better. The most exciting thing that has come out in the scientific literature in the past two years is that psilocybin stimulates neurons to grow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
That is incredible. It docks with the 5-HT, uh, 5-HT2A receptor. This is what serotonin uses. But psilocybin, um, uh, also docks with track B receptors that lead to proliferation of neurons. There's, there's neurogeneration, neuroregeneration, neurogenesis, and neuroplasticity. Um, those are four distinct, distinct areas, and psilocin does all of those. Not as much the neurogenesis, but we have done pluripotent stem cells of humans, dosed them with psilocin in the laboratory. We have a DEA license. I have a DEA license. Very, very strictly controlled. But we can actually see the proliferation of neurons compared to controls.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PSPaul Stamets
Um, so this is where... uh, this is why I want to emphasize to all scientists, especially older scientists that are stuck in their wisdom, that are very comfortable with their knowledge base, and younger scientists come up with these ideas and, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
They dismiss them.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
It's, uh... is that, be more circumspect, because what Dennis and, and Terence McKenna postulated, you know... and I disagree with lots of Terence's ideas. Time wave zero was in my mind total bullshit. Um, but Terence and I were very good friends, and we laughed a lot, and th- that's wh- I, I... that spirit of camaraderie where you can criticize someone and laugh at the same time?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
That's a higher level of intelligence.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's also what happens when you abandon the ego, right?
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
If the ego's consistently abandoned through psychedelic experiences, you're much more likely to laugh at stuff.
- PSPaul Stamets
I think psilocybin is an Einstein molecule. I think the tryptamines in general are Einstein molecules. Uh, the work by Goldin, Goldin, uh, is, is fantastic. Also associated with Johns Hopkins, uh, the critical window, um, and this is why ibogaine has, has gotten such traction. The critical window with ibogaine is a long window where you're able to r- uh, repattern, uh, your behavior to break addiction.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PSPaul Stamets
Uh, with psilocybin, there's a critical window. DMT is very, very short because of the short, uh... the short period. The critical window typically is at the tip... at the peak of the experience, just as you're over the hump, you know, going down. But one patient described it very, very well, uh, who was an addict, and the patient said before the psilocybin experience, they were literally stuck in a rut. Stuck in a rut, and they visually saw themselves on a ski slope, going down the ski slope again and again and again.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PSPaul Stamets
Stuck in the rut.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
And then after the psilocybin, it's like someone groomed the landscape, the hill.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. And they were free.
- PSPaul Stamets
And they were free to, uh, uh, to go elsewhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
And then Josh Siegel, uh, this past year, from, uh, uh, from Washington University, published a study that specifically showed in real time neurite... uh, dendritic branchings of neurons under the influ- influence of psilocybin in real time. Now, psilocybin, which becomes psilocin, uh, what docks with your receptors... psilocybin's stable, psilocin is not. Psilocy- psilocybin dephosphorylates into psilocin that crosses into your, into your receptors. It goes into... it stimulates i- inside the nucleus of cells that cause cell division. And this is mind-boggling. I think this is why high doses of psilocybin, great, uh, for a revelatory experience, for perhaps breaking addiction, but what about the near normals? We all suffer from neurodegeneration that's age-related. Besides Alzheimer's and, you know, other forms of dementia that are toxin or disease related... and self as a disease, you could argue, age being one. But neurodegeneration is a fact of life as we age, and neuropathies occur. And the neuropathies from the constriction of the peripheral nervous system, vasoconstriction, et cetera. Uh, psilocin is not only anti-inflammatory, but neuroregenerative. And to have this coupled together, I think that the nootropic vitamins of ps- psilocybin, you know, as a daily consumable, is something that has a p- great future potential. Of course we need to study this. But long-term clinical studies are inherently very expensive. A short time stay in a hospital for one, you know, huge event may be expensive for that day, but it's easier to design a clinical study that has a short period than a long period. I think that we're beginning to see... now, when we think about 8 million Americans consume psilocybin in 2023, according to the RAND report. What was the reduction in crime with those 8 million people?
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- PSPaul Stamets
Ha- if we could have studied that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
And, and there are retroactive studies, you know, analyses that show a reduction of crime associated with psilocybin use. But in real time, that's something I'm very excited about. Could you reduce crime rates? And moreover, when you're immunologically...... uh, when you're depressed emotionally, you're immunologically depressed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- 1:18:33 – 1:43:34
Dosing culture, creativity, and preparing for an AI-automated future
- PSPaul Stamets
And then, of course, medium and microdosing, um, really popular practice right now, increasingly popular is a high dose of psilocybin once a year and then microdosing just before you go to sleep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PSPaul Stamets
Or a medium dose, like the museum dose. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Museum dose? I like... (laughs) You guys are such, you're such a fucking mushroom head that you have, like, museum doses.
- PSPaul Stamets
Let me give you this.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is a movie dose, this is a concert dose-
- PSPaul Stamets
The museum dose.
- JRJoe Rogan
... this is the date night dose.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. Graham Hancock and I and, and, and, and, and, um, um, and some friends went to a museum, in the British Museum, and, um, uh, but anyway, the museum dosers just tend to, you can notice them because they wear sunglasses inside.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PSPaul Stamets
Because otherwise their pupils... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
They're like, "Let me try to keep it together. Keep it together." Yeah. But the idea of taking a museum dose, quote unquote, or a microdose before sleep is just when you're regenerating.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-huh.
- PSPaul Stamets
That's when your body and your brain-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
... is regenerating. So that is really, really interesting is taking th- those, those...
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that makes sense.
- PSPaul Stamets
It makes sense.
- JRJoe Rogan
Especially from, like, an anti-aging protocol for the mind.
- PSPaul Stamets
And it's also safer.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
You're in bed.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're not going anywhere.
- PSPaul Stamets
You're not going anywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, not driving home, tractor.
- PSPaul Stamets
That's why I think clinical studies that look more and more at reducing the expense of having people take the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
Episode duration: 2:43:31
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