EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,306 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- PSPaul Stamets
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Are we up? Yeah. Put them headphones on. Let's rock and roll, Paul. Good to see you, sir.
- PSPaul Stamets
Good to see you, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's happening? How you doing?
- PSPaul Stamets
I'm-
- JRJoe Rogan
Book, book number eight, huh?
- PSPaul Stamets
Book number eight, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who would have known? There's so many books to be written on mushrooms.
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, this is state of the art taxonomy, Psilocybin Mushrooms in Their Natural Habitat. It covers 60 species all over the world, but it also shows not only historical use, which people are surprised, they've been using it in India, in Europe, in South Africa a new species was just found, psilocybe mahlouti. But the Basotho and Lesotho, uh, province, had been using it, obviously, for hundreds of years. We know this because they have songs. So it's really interesting when indigenous people have using psilocybin mushrooms and scientists, quote, "discover" them-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and give them a Latin binomial. But the psilocybin mushroom revolution is happening all over the world right now. I never expected it to be this big. And the RAND report came out this past year, 3% of Americans tripped on psilocybin in 2023. That's-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's only three?
- PSPaul Stamets
Three percent. That's eight million, I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, (laughs) I would agree with you because how many people would admit it, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
How many... Probably under-reporting, not over-reporting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
- PSPaul Stamets
So it seems to be, uh, I think a revolution for the freedom of consciousness and it's crossing all political boundaries, all religious boundaries.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's happening here in Texas, for sure, because of the ibogaine initiative and what's happening with, uh, Governor Rick Perry, who was former Republican governor of Texas, who is all in on this.
- PSPaul Stamets
He's a, he's a great guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
He really is.
- PSPaul Stamets
I've talked to him backstage a few times, and he's the type of person that I really admire because even though we may have political differences or f- different cultural backgrounds, there's, we're joined together with a common purpose of trying to help people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, he's not ideologically c- ideologically captured. Like, he realized that he was wrong, and that his position on this was based on ignorance, so he educated himself-
- PSPaul Stamets
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and completely turned around, did a 180, and, and now is an advocate and has helped a lot of people. There's, uh, I mean, it's tremendous benefit to veterans and people with PTSD, and you know, coming back from the war, and it's one of the only things that's been shown to really get these people straight.
- PSPaul Stamets
That and psilocybin and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
... my heart really goes out, and this is, uh, I'm sort of a little left of center so my friends will be surprised, but my heart goes out to law enforcement. Can you imagine stopping a car on a stormy night at 2:00 in the morning-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Tint the windows.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Whoa. …
- PSPaul Stamets
one of the things was, it really embedded with, with Christianity after the Spaniards came 1516 and 1519, 1521 they brought in cattle. And, um, and very quickly, uh, Christianity swept through Mesoamerica, the s- specifically in Mexico. And, um, there is a, a friend of mine, um, uh, who's a, uh, who's a PhD, uh, called, uh, uh, Joe To- uh, Tori was in Oaxaca and just found a, in a church, a cross from the 15th century. B- b- b- 1500s, I mean. And soon after the Conquistador, when the Conquistadors and Spanish arrived, and in the center of the cross are psilocybin mushrooms. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- PSPaul Stamets
... so Christianity has a long, deep-rooted history with psilocybin mushroom use in Mesoamerica.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's that ancient, um, depiction of Adam and Eve from, uh...
- PSPaul Stamets
That's, that's more debatable in my mind.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it?
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah, but here, here it is. Thank you. This is, uh, f- from, um, J- Joe, uh, La Torre's, uh, work.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, look at that.
- PSPaul Stamets
That's a basket-
- JRJoe Rogan
With mushrooms popping out of it.
- PSPaul Stamets
... with three mushrooms in the, in the basket. And there, there is Psilocybe mexicana, um, and so the mushrooms are phenotypically correct, but there's clearly mushrooms in the basket. Can y- can the other slide show with a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you-
- PSPaul Stamets
... with a full cross? Joey, I'm not sure, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you know Jack Herrer?
- PSPaul Stamets
... uh, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
When Jack was alive, before he died, one of the things that he was working on was a book connecting psilocybin mushrooms and Christianity.
- PSPaul Stamets
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he had this massive collection of ancient images, paintings, all these different things. A lot of them were these religious depictions of people that were naked dancing under the, like, it w- was like a transparent mushroom shape and they were dancing. So like something that would indicate that they were under the trance, and they were dancing.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. This is, um, this is an example where there's, it's so many different... s- you, you could have 100 different potential representations.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
They're not all gonna be correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
The one that could...
- PSPaul Stamets
But, but a few of them are. And this example here-
- JRJoe Rogan
But one that clearly is.
- PSPaul Stamets
... and, and i- and in the Mazatec, uh, tradition is called, um, it's called syncretism when you have a foreign influence, in this case a religion, coming into an indigenous people, they merge, and they still continue their indigenous practices under the umbrella of protection, in this case, of Christianity. But in the Mazatec tradition, they bel- they believe the tears of Christ is where the mushrooms would appear.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
They believe the mushrooms were the body of Christ, and therefore you'd never boil them. You'd never, because it'd be hurting the body of Christ, so you'd only eat them raw or dried.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, interesting.
- PSPaul Stamets
So really interesting-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 30:00 – 45:00
Wow. …
- PSPaul Stamets
of new galaxies, literally millions of new galaxies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
I think 2,100 new asteroids.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- PSPaul Stamets
In near-Earth orbit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, fun.
- PSPaul Stamets
Oh, fun. Oops.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's already 900,000 of them.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. So, there's... but this has just happened-
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
But this is...
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. If there were any of those people out there-
- JRJoe Rogan
I wonder how many people are tripping balls.
- PSPaul Stamets
... the Telescop- just got r- released, the largest telescope in the world, and there are millions of galaxies. Millions of galaxies. And so, from my experience, which I will admit, I came from a Christian background, so my first times on psilocybin mushrooms is very Christ-oriented.
- JRJoe Rogan
God, look at it.
- PSPaul Stamets
And then as I got more and more into the psilocybin experience, I realized that this is a...... just this concept that we live, uh, in this great expanse, and I'm a assemble, assembly of molecules, so are you. We didn't exist before we were born. You know, we will disassemble, decompose, and we'll go back into the cosmic dust, and this is part of the continuum of existence. We all exist, all the time-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can I ask-
- PSPaul Stamets
... forever.
- JRJoe Rogan
... forever. Can I ask you this? What do you think happens to consciousness?
- PSPaul Stamets
I think that, think from a mechanical perspective, we might be looking at, have the constructs of consciousness that, uh, is analogous to the, to the Model T Ford, you know? And I think as we expand our knowledge sets and become more informed, we see how much there is out there. I think that psilocybin mushrooms and other psychedelics, and this is why I think religions are very much attracted to this, is a portal to expand the horizons of your imaginations, that there is a, there is a consciousness that far exceeds that which you can comprehend. My, my mother was a charismatic Christian, and, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
What is a, what is a charismatic Christian?
- PSPaul Stamets
Well, she's an evangelical.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
She speaks in tongues. She was a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy.
- PSPaul Stamets
... a leader. She was very much into this. Like, "Mom, really?" (laughs) Different side of her. But we had an interesting conversation. I said, "Mom, you believe God is omnipotent, right?" And she goes, "Absolutely." I said, "You believe God is all knowledgeable." And she goes, "Absolutely." "You believe that humans are fallible, that we're not all knowledgeable." She goes, "Yep, I do." I said, "Then can you accept the fact that our concept of God is inferior to God's definition by your own thinking?" That no matter how we think of God, we'll be inferior to the enormity of the concept. So, and she admitted that. So but, so we're fallible. We, we don't have the capacity to understand the enormity of consciousness in which we are embedded of which we are a tiny part. So this brings me to, to a subject I really wanted to talk to you about.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Right. …
- JRJoe Rogan
religion. I think we have always realized there's this battle of good and evil in us, and a part of it becomes, a part of it comes, rather, from how we originated. We originated as these barbarian tribes competing for resources, fighting off other marauding barbarian tribes, fighting off predators, and trying to stay alive. So, we've unfortunately got this intense history of chaos and of savagery that we're trying to move past.
- PSPaul Stamets
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Slowly but surely over time.
- PSPaul Stamets
And I think the catalyst for this is psychedelics.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think so too.
- PSPaul Stamets
Like, psilocybin mushrooms are unique because it democratizes the access to psilocybin. MDMA, you can't grow in your closet. (laughs) You know, psilocybin mushrooms-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
... you know, there's no economic, uh, barrier on psilocybin mushrooms.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
It's available for the poorest of the poor. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
They just fucked everything up in 1970, didn't they?
- PSPaul Stamets
19, yeah, 71, I think, 1972, when they put it on Schedule I.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
A Schedule I substance is supposed to be... It has no medical benefit, highly addictive, um, and, um, and potentially toxicity. Did you know the LD50, the lethal dose of psilocybin mushrooms, is 42 pounds?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that's a lot.
- PSPaul Stamets
42 pounds. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And that only kills half the people. (laughs)
- PSPaul Stamets
Only kills half the people. You die from indigestion. That's from psilocybin.
- JRJoe Rogan
You die of diarrhea.
- PSPaul Stamets
That's basically... Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you imagine the diarrhea you get eating 42 pounds of mushrooms? Good Lord.
- PSPaul Stamets
I mean, that's, that's the least toxic, one of the least medicines-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
... ever des- uh, found in nature, but...
- JRJoe Rogan
But there's a concern though with people that have, uh, problems with mental health though, right?
- PSPaul Stamets
I don't think psilocybin mushrooms or, or psilocybin is good for people who have ps- or who are psychotic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
I, I think there are other groups of people. I... We do need ps- psilocybin or psychological-assisted therapy. You know, it's super important that people who are, who are experienced can help other people who are in an experienced process.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
That's really important.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Yeah. …
- JRJoe Rogan
just disappears. It just...
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It just snaps its neck forward, engulfs this fish, swallows it all and it looks like a magic trick.
- PSPaul Stamets
Oh my gosh. I want-
- JRJoe Rogan
You have to look at it in slow-mo to even see the actually action of it.
- PSPaul Stamets
There's so much sea life there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- PSPaul Stamets
The British, British Columbia is just full of sea life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, it certainly is.
- PSPaul Stamets
It's an amazing-
- JRJoe Rogan
Incredible place.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. I, I love it, I love it, being there. So, you know, this is a beautiful planet. Where we live, there's no garbage and when visitors come to visit us on our island, I said, "Have you noticed? There's no garbage anywhere?" Not in the s- not in the ditches, anywhere. Uh, it's because the ethos of that community is to take care of the ecosystem.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's beautiful. And that can be done if you have a small community of like-minded people.
- PSPaul Stamets
Of like-minded people.
- JRJoe Rogan
The real issue is big- when it gets to the size of something like New York City, there's becomes this diffusion of responsibility where you don't think that you have to be concerned with all this garbage that's on the ground because there's 20 million people walking around and it's just, it is what it is, keep moving.
- PSPaul Stamets
Or India. I'm just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
I'm just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, it's devastating.
- PSPaul Stamets
... heart-torn by India. Such a spiritual place and there's so much garbage. China as well, you know, this is-
- JRJoe Rogan
But the India thing is nuts because, uh, it's also in these areas where a lot of the stuff that people buy that's inexpensive in America is being manufactured. And these factories whose the back of the factory opens to this river and this river is completely choked with plastic and garbage and just junk. And all the stuff that they don't want, they just throw into the river and-... there's so much stuff in the river that I guess they just feel like, "Well, it's not like I'm polluting something that's not already polluted. I'm just adding to whatever's there. This is just what we do."
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so they've developed this culture of, like, con- constant, consistent pollution.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah. We all need to, you know, even teaching our children constantly to pick up, but there are communities that are examples of doing it right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
And this community that I- I'm associated with, I'm just so proud of them. So...
- JRJoe Rogan
I wanted to talk to you about something that you said earlier, because you were talking about human species and... or, or, or species and love and cooperation and all the different things, and I said that u- uniquely with us, yes, love and random acts of kindness and community are incredibly important, but what do you think... why do you think we're so different than all the other species on the planet? And what... do you think that psilocybin pl- like, do you subscribe to McKeana's theory? I know we've probably talked about this before, but-
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah, we've, we've talked about it, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
... as a standalone podcast, this is probably-
- PSPaul Stamets
Joe, this is what I like, and for all your listeners out there, this is a never-ending story.
- 1:15:00 – 1:22:16
Right. If you're willing…
- PSPaul Stamets
about tenure, if you got a thick skin, dare to be wrong. 'Cause you dare to be wrong a dozen, 20, 30 times, you might be hitting one or two concepts that is game changing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. If you're willing to-
- PSPaul Stamets
Don't let the fear of failure inhibit your creativity.
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's a giant problem in the academic world is that people who do fail get attacked. And that people-
- PSPaul Stamets
Viciously.
- JRJoe Rogan
And especially if they step outside the lines and they propose something that's novel, they get attacked. This Timewave Zero thing, like, you, you used to be able to get it, it was an actual program that w- you could download and you could run it on your own computer.
- PSPaul Stamets
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- PSPaul Stamets
And that's another thing, I talked to Terrence, I go, "Well, what happens when, you know, the, like, the birth of Jesus Christ-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Where did he come up with that concept? Did you ask him about that?
- PSPaul Stamets
No. No, I never figured it out. He goes, "We'll just a- adapt the algorithm." I said, "Okay, then it's not really, it's just-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Predictive.
- PSPaul Stamets
"... something that's constantly adapting itself."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- PSPaul Stamets
So anyhow, it was a, it's a thought experiment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- PSPaul Stamets
And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
And obviously de- I wish he was alive on December 21st, 2012, I'd be like, "And?"
- PSPaul Stamets
And... (laughs) I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
"And what?"
- PSPaul Stamets
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
But maybe we're wrong. Maybe in that timeline something did happen on December 21st, 2012, that will be recognized in the future, that there's-
- PSPaul Stamets
I, I, I doubt it, but... Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, this is what I'm, we're getting to. One of the things that did happen in that timeframe is the ubiquitous use of social media. It kind of started peaking around 2012.
- PSPaul Stamets
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think there is a, a real problem with that, with, with the human race. And I don't necessarily think we recognize things that are constant. You know, I think we just get accustomed to things and human beings are very adaptable, and we just accept things that this is the way it is. But before that time, you know, when you, you get to, like, 2009... You know, just go to 2000, people weren't carrying their phones around staring at 'em all day.
- PSPaul Stamets
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was a profound change in how we interface with the world.
- PSPaul Stamets
You know in Korea now, on the sidewalks, they have red bars that light up to tell you to stop.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy.
Episode duration: 2:43:31
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