EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,057 words- 0:00 – 2:19
Public land sale amendment pulled—why it’s not “dead forever”
- NANarrator
(drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) You good? All right. Ryan Callahan, ladies and gentlemen. We brought you in here, hopefully we were gonna kill that public land sale deal-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... from the big beautiful bill-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and we did it.
- RCRyan Callaghan
We did it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Before we even got you in here.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Well, I mean, we're not out of the woods yet-
- JRJoe Rogan
No?
- RCRyan Callaghan
... is the, is the reality, yeah. I mean, we're ... I, I was hoping that, uh, you and I were gonna, were gonna team up and tee off on these sons of bitches and watch it die together. That would have been ideal.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's dead. I think it's dead.
- RCRyan Callaghan
It's, it is dead. It is dead. But we're a long way from this stuff being-
- JRJoe Rogan
Dead ever.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... dead ever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Forever. Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right, exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
It, it's gotta be dead forever. That's not ... It's not theirs to sell. It's very unique to the United States. It's an amazing thing that we have. And I don't think people in other countries r- understand this. I don't think people in America even understand how unique it is. Like our public lands, what, what they did when they set that up, not just national parks but all the public lands, w- we created this insane resource, this beautiful resource where we can go into the mountains, into the woods and, and enjoy nature. And it's ours. It's, it's all of ours.
- RCRyan Callaghan
And I get, I mean, the amount of response from listeners that live outside the country and, and to a person are like, "Are you guys really gonna screw this up?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(clicks tongue) Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
They're like, "H- how, how do people not know? How do people not appreciate what you guys have?" Don't turn into this country or this country or this country. Basically any other country outside of Canada and the US.
- JRJoe Rogan
I-
- RCRyan Callaghan
I think the, the real issue is the people in America that don't experience it and don't go there and don't know how insanely unique this situation is. Like I don't know how to say Chamath's last name. Palihapitiya, is that how you say it? Even he was tweeting this is a great deal, sell the land and, you know, we'll make some money. Like what the fuck are you talking about, man? Like, you know, you don't understand, like th- this, this was an incredible gift that they gave us when they set America up this way.
- 2:19 – 3:20
Public lands as life-support systems: water, food, ecosystems—not just recreation
- RCRyan Callaghan
Oh, y- yeah. And, and ... (laughs) It's not that they need to go out and experience. They can also understand just where food comes from, right? How, how we get cold water and fresh water in our taps. Um, that public resource is working on our behalf 24/7, 365. Always has been and always will be as long as we don't screw it up, right? Um, so it's not just the recreational part of it. It is ... I mean, it, it is no different than, if you want to think of it in these terms, than some, you know, one-arm jack pumping oil out of the ground. Like it is constantly working on our behalf and it, it being public land, needs to be intact, an intact ecosystem to do its job. And there's less and less of it every year. So like for instance, right, like America's grasslands,
- 3:20 – 4:59
America’s grasslands crisis: losing 2 million acres a year (and why bison mattered)
- RCRyan Callaghan
we're leavin' ... we are losing two million acres, and grasslands are kind of like a catchall phrase a little bit, but it'd be like sage brush ecosystem, short grass prairie, mixed grass prairie, but we're losing two million acres a year. It's the most threatened ecosystem not just in the US but in the entire planet, and people are like, "Oh, it's just grass. Not doing anything."
- JRJoe Rogan
How are we losing it?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Development.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Well, there's development but also, uh, encroachment of tree species so, um, cedars, junipers, stuff like that working their way back out on to the prairie, to the plain, and we used to have all these natural deforesters out there, bison, that wouldn't allow those trees to grow 'cause they like rubbing up on stuff and, and they'll destroy 'em. So, uh, you know, millions of bison out there physically removing or preventing that, uh, tree encroachment onto the plain. Those trees are sucking water out of the ground, making it more arid and more dry. Uh, water table goes down. Uh, you lose a lot of species diversification and people just do not know, Joe. They just don't know and they look at it and they're like, "It's just grass."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I never knew that it was two million acres a year. How many acres in the United States?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Uh, about 2.23 billion acres in the US.
- JRJoe Rogan
So that, that's a lot. Like two million acres a year is a lot.
- 4:59 – 10:33
Putting land loss in perspective: golf-course math and what “public estate” really means
- RCRyan Callaghan
Two million acres a year is a l- is a lot and like I was hacking on Jamie for his, uh, golf swing, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RCRyan Callaghan
We got about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jamie's got a solid golf swing. You better leave him alone.
- NANarrator
That's about all I got is a golf swing.
- JRJoe Rogan
L- leave him alone. He can, he can swing.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Jamie, what's the longest drive you've ever hit?
- NANarrator
Uh, I've hit it over, like, I mean, 310, whatever, 305.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's legit as fuck.
- NANarrator
Not consistent but I've done it.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's legit, right? Now I don't play golf but I, I think that's pretty legit. What's the world record-
- RCRyan Callaghan
I'm nodding my head 'cause I'm like, yeah, I have no idea. 300 is ... that's a lot.
- NANarrator
I've set someone up to hit over 600 yards before but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- NANarrator
... that's like with the wind and the elevation and ... Elevation helps a lot.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, like Montana or something like that.
- NANarrator
Yeah, you can hit it... I, I could hit it 400 yards in Montana, I think.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? Oh, wow.
- NANarrator
I have on the simulator.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Ooh. All right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's interesting. The simulator r- oh, the simulator accounts for that?
- NANarrator
Yeah, but you don't have to dodge bears on the simulator.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RCRyan Callaghan
Two million acres of golf courses in the US.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Two million acres of just, just golf courses.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so that's a good way to look at.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Like a- l- all the golf courses in the United States get lost every year in grassland.
- 10:33 – 18:31
How the current fight started: Utah’s lawsuit, Mike Lee’s long game, and the politicization trap
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. But I mean, it was so cathartic, man. Like we've been running so hard, and because of this public lands battle that we've been in, um, I think most people are like, "Oh, yeah, it just popped up last week, and then we crushed it and big win." And a little larger group of people or a smaller group of people is like, "Oh, it started in the House about six weeks ago," and then there's a real small group of people who were like, "August 24th, the state of Utah submitted a lawsuit for, uh, the United States Supreme Court to take 18 and a half million acres of BLM land in Utah." August 2024 is when we were like, "Oh my God, we gotta be on top of this. This is what's coming, coming. Um, Trump's gonna win the election. It's gonna set all these things up, and we're gonna be in this fight."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
And people were like, "I don't even know why you're talking about this. This isn't a big deal."
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- RCRyan Callaghan
I'm like, "Oh, it is a big deal. This is happening."
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's such a slippery slope too. This is what people don't know or don't appreciate. If you say, "Oh, it's only like one million acres. We'll, we'll sell off one million acres that'll f- help fix the debt." No, it's not. The debt's $37 trillion. It's not, you're not gonna fix the debt by selling off public land, and if you open up that slippery slope to these fucking vampire developers, they're gonna keep doing it. They're gonna keep sucking on that blood until there's nothing left, until it's just the national parks. Oh, we preserved Yellowstone. Oh, great.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... and, and that quite literally is... You know, like, Mike Lee is, like, the figurehead of this-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... right now. Um, he's on the record saying, "We're gonna sell everything. We need to sell everything, that's the plan. We're gonna retain the national parks, and maybe a couple other things."
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Like... And he's been on the record for damn near 20 years saying this stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is... Who's paying him? Where, where is-
- RCRyan Callaghan
I... There's a lot, there's a lot there, right? Like, where he grew up in Utah, there's a lot of, like, um, I would say, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's where Chapit is from, right?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he was the v- he was the guy we were fighting a few years ago.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Exactly, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
I mean, that's exactly why I dug this shirt out, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I got one of those somewhere.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
I wore this shirt on your show the last time this shit was happening.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
That's right, it was happening back then. That was, like, f- what, five years ago?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Oh, I mean, you were still in California.
- JRJoe Rogan
Six years ago?
- RCRyan Callaghan
I mean, it was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Five years ago, I moved here, so it had to be six or seven years ago.
- 18:31 – 26:47
Why it got traction: ideology, power, and committee leverage in the Senate
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah, kind of like all humans. So, on the, the Mormon church side of things, there's, um, you know, there's some doctrine, some church doctrine that says that the land is put here for the benefit of the people, and you're basically, and I'm very much paraphrasing here, you're, you're spiting God if you're not developing that land for profit. Like, for-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... for the profit of the people. And so there is a, a strong theory that Mike Lee is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is he Mormon?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yes. He's so indoctrinated into this part of the church that this is, like, his divine mission.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's a problem.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right? And so it, it... Yeah, I mean, it's re- religious zealotry, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
I, I was not aware of that.
- RCRyan Callaghan
And so... But again, like, that doesn't have to be representative of the entire religion, and to the people that I hang out with that are Mormon, it's absolutely not, right? They, they're like, public lands that are set aside for multiple use don't get locked up, don't get developed in certain ways, are the best thing, right? Um, but, and this is something that just, like, has got to get talked about, um, Mike Lee is, like, very much in power. He is the chair, he's a senior senator, he is the chair of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee in the Senate, and like I said, he starts getting drug into the White House, he starts consolidating power, and he starts telling everybody, "Hey, I'm gonna put this amendment in, and you better not go against it, or else, for the next six years," which is technical, as long as Republicans stay in power he's not gonna lose his chairmanship of the, uh, Energy and Natural Resources Committee. Um, as long as he's there, none of their stuff is gonna be read, 'cause it's the chair that decides what they're gonna review, what they're gonna look at, and what they're gonna pass. So, here's this dude who is leveraging everything for his personal thing, and he had his shot and he took it, and fortunately people started cluing in and there was enough of an on-ramp that there was blowback literally in every, every state, all 50 states. People wrote in to, first, their representatives, then their senators, and it created enough of a, "Oh my God, this is going to set back the entire Big Beautiful Bill." This is only one part of the dumpster fire that is the Big Beautiful Bill, but it's gonna take this whole thing off the tracks. And that's, that's why it's killed. Now, Lee issued a statement which is, like, a gut shot if you're in my position. We've been, like, tracking this thing, you know, since August, and, you know, it said, "Oh, I listened to the American people," right? Well, he rewrote the language. He and his team, his staff, rewrote the language four different times to get it passed the Senate parliamentarian. It, it did pass, and you don't do that if you're listening to the American people, right? The American people, by the end of this, were very united in saying, "Not one acre." It started as not one acre in the budget reconciliation process, which is, you know, part of what they're doing here in the Big Beautiful Bill, or is what they're doing. Um, and the, the phrasing there really matters, right? Like, we have systems in place for land sales, legal framework, those, both of those sy- You know, it's acronyms, government acronyms, FLPMA, FLTNA. Um, and the revenues from land sales go back into acquiring land of greater value. Um, there's all these acts. Since 1781, all of these acts for the disposal of federally managed land and, and that, those two that I named are, are the, the most recent, and they're designed to, uh, maybe not retain the same acreage, but provide the most value to the American people. And what Lee was doing in this reconciliation process was completely circumventing that and, as you mentioned, like, nobody, no, no citizen in the United States is going to feel any change from dumping $100 million into the federal treasury right now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
And that's where the money was going, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Hmm. So, going forward, in the future, how do we make sure that this never happens again? Do we have to just keep doing this every few years when it comes up?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Y- well, yeah. I mean, and that's, that's the, like the, the best thing that could've come out of this. Like, we are gonna make... We made this huge stink, right? From pe- all the different buckets that politicians pay attention to, right? All the different user groups, Democrats, Republicans, Independents, everybody came together-And more than likely, a shitload of people, the 36% of Americans who didn't vote in the last election, probably chose to spoke- speak up, some large percentage of them, um, and said, "No public land sales." Hopefully that created enough of, you know, what they call in Washington as like a third rail issue. It's like, doesn't matter what side of the aisle you're on, you can't have this as part of your agenda, because you're going to get shot down. Right? That's, that's like the, the near term win, because that feeling won't last forever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RCRyan Callaghan
There's a piece of legislation out of Ryan Zinke's office, who's our, uh, Montana congressman, and he was actually, uh, started as Secretary of the Interior under Trump in his first term. Um, Zinke has this Public Lands in Public Hands Act, and it would not have prevented what just happened, this budget reconciliation thing, but it does, um, put some more guard rails around the sale of federally managed land. And that would be like a really positive thing. However, v- just like I explained, like Mike Lee's position in the Senate, it would have to get through him, like, it's got- he's got to be circumvented. There's no way he's going to vote for something like this, and it's got to go through the House, and everything I've heard about, uh, in, on the, uh, House committees is there are some people there that don't want to see this thing happen. So, um, more people are signing on to the Public Lands in Public Hands Act, which is awesome show of support. Uh, Senator Heinrich out of New Mexico's got it written for the Senate. No Republican cosponsors. He needs Republican cosponsors in the Senate just to get the ball rolling there. Um, but we still have like these knuckleheads that are saying, "If you didn't vote for my thing, I won't let a single good thing happen for the next six years." That goes, you know, provided they don't get removed somehow, some way.
- 26:47 – 30:51
How the amendment worked: reconciliation loopholes, vague language, and ‘housing’ as cover
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, there's, uh, it's really interesting when you see these bills, 'cause these bills are like, I think they read the entire bill on the floor and it took 14 hours, and no one was there. They, they just read it to an empty audience 'cause nobody sat around for 14 hours. So what was it, 900 pages?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just like, h- who's, how are you signing off on things that I know you're not reading? Like how crazy is that, that this is a part of our process of government-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is that they pass these bills that have all sorts of weird shit piled into them.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good things and bad things, all together. And you have to figure out, like, how much of the bad stuff do you allow because you want the good stuff, and they all have to make these weird shady fucking deals.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. I mean, I got that text, the official text, you know, essentially as soon as it came out, and public land sales were page 202. So I just went straight to page 202 and read through the new language, uh, to see what ... 'cause it was another revision by Mike Lee to see if he could get that thing passed. Um, it was just typical crap. Like he's not listening to anybody. He's still push- pushing his agenda.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when he revised it-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... what were the revisions? And why did he put those revisions in?
- RCRyan Callaghan
So he started at, uh, US Forest Service land and BLM land, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which would be how many acres, all told?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Well, it would have been a possible like 500 million acres area in 11 western states, and I, I want to say it would've been two to three million acres actually sold within five years. So you're identifying out of 500 million, then you're narrowing it down to, uh, two to three million acres of, um, uh, Forest Service and BLM land. And then, you know, he says it's for housing. "It's for housing."
- JRJoe Rogan
But a lot of that is nowhere near development.
- RCRyan Callaghan
A lot of it's nowhere near development, and the language of the text, even on the very last revision, where he's supposed to be listening to American peoples, and he did throw in the word hunters there, "Hunters, I'm listening to you," um, it, it says, like bullet point one, "Must be near existing infrastructure." And then bullet point number seven, I think it was, was like, "Or very hard- far away and hard to manage."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is all the rest. (laughs)
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah, so like-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RCRyan Callaghan
... somewhere in between here.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so crazy. That's such a crazy piece of language. "Or far away and hard to manage." So all of it.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah, exactly. Like it just-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so vague.
- RCRyan Callaghan
He wants to get it through. And then, there's super fun language in there too, where it's like, okay, right of f- first refusal is going to be state, um, then local government, uh, threw tribes in there, and then, uh, the only other group would've been land owners within the checkerboard pattern, how we have like that, you know, grid system of, uh, federal land ownership and, and private land ownership. Um, those land owners could also purchase more than anybody else would've been allowed to purchase, so state, local-... than your, uh, tribes and local landowners. So, basically, like a huge handout to, you know, like, w- you know the corner crossing case that we've been talking about, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Iron Bar Holdings? They would have just purchased all those checkerboard pieces, and would have been legally allowed to do that.
- 30:51 – 36:34
Corner crossing explained: checkerboard access, trespass claims, and Supreme Court implications
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's explain cor- corner crossing to people.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, what corner crossing is, is like, say, if there's an enormous piece of public land, but the only way you can get to it is to cross over a very small corner of private land. For the longest time, that was prohibited and you would get arrested. So, you-
- RCRyan Callaghan
You could, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You could get arrested for trespassing.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? And we're talking about like a couple of feet.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Oh, not e- I mean, not, we're talking about something so small you can't even possibly see it, right? That's, that's why it's been, it's like a theory, right? It's w- it's like y- for all the physics majors out there, right, it's like that game of like, well, how do you get some place if you only go 50% of the way, right? You'll, you keep going 50% and 50% and 50%, it's like a, a theory. Whereas in reality, like all it is is a footstep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Like, you're gonna cross that corner in a footstep, and we know where corners come together, 'cause it's right here. But that theory thing is like, well, the, and then the air space-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... all the way down to the center of the earth and to the heavens is how it's written.
- JRJoe Rogan
The crazy thing is, like you could legitimately do it in a hop. (laughs) So, you would never have stepped foot at all on private land.
- RCRyan Callaghan
I'll tell you what my 97-year-old grandma, who's hooked up to an oxygen tank, could have stepped across. Like, I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... it's, we're not talking about a feet of any sort.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. We're not, we're not talking about like a football field that you have to cross.
- RCRyan Callaghan
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
No. We're talking about like a couple inches.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yep. So just like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is so nuts.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Oh, it's, it's infuriating is what it is. So just like on your, your checkerboard at home, pick any four corners that come together, where the two reds, imagine those are public and the two blacks are private.
- JRJoe Rogan
So here it is.
- RCRyan Callaghan
There you go. Beautiful.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we'll explain it right there.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So those little tiny spots in the corner-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you're, we're not supposed to cross. (laughs)
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right.
- 36:34 – 42:59
Private land, ranch culture, and modern surveillance: from neighborly gates to drone patrols
- JRJoe Rogan
BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhelp.com/jre.Well, it's, it's also today, I could imagine how a long time ago, you would get a lot of confusion, and it would lead to people trespassing accidentally on public land or-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... on private land rather because we're looking at maps, you know. And people would be, you know, 100 yards to the left, 100 yards to the right, and maybe not good navigators.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But now, when you have things like, like-
- RCRyan Callaghan
OnX.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Go Hunt, OnX, uh, Spartan Forge, all these apps that hunters use now that use GPS, you're 100% accurate.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, 100% accurate.
- RCRyan Callaghan
And a lot of the law enforcement agencies are using those same things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RCRyan Callaghan
So they can be on the same page as-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... the, the hunter or access seeker or whatever you want to say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Super easy to follow.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... there's no worries at all about encroaching on private land.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. And, and also, it's like, what's the harm, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Like, when you sue somebody, you have to establish what, what the impact is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... what the harm is, and in, in these cases that went to the Supreme Courts, they're like, "Well, what, what are the damages?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RCRyan Callaghan
"Explain to me what the damages are."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right? And they really can't.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is it? Right, there's no damages. They just don't want hunters on their property. People that have a lot of land, for whatever reason, I guess it's how they acquire a lot of land in the first place, a lot of them are fucking greedy.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Well, there's some strategic purchasers, right?
- 42:59 – 52:05
American Prairie in Montana: philanthropic land consolidation, bison restoration, and access debates
- JRJoe Rogan
What i- what is going on-
- RCRyan Callaghan
But it takes space.
- JRJoe Rogan
... with that American-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Prairie?
- JRJoe Rogan
... savanna ... Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The American prairie thing.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. So, that's in the home state of Montana. Um, I ... You know, I wish I could-
- JRJoe Rogan
Explain that to people.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, basically, the fear is it's going to be a privatized national park, um, that people aren't going to be able to go out on. Well, I don't think that's true. It might be-
- JRJoe Rogan
Explain what it is.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... but I don't think it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Explain what it is.
- RCRyan Callaghan
It is a bunch of private philanthropic dollars, a lot of which is coming from overseas. Uh, I think the, the Dutch have somehow, someway, dumped a bunch of cash in there. Um, and it is to connect a bunch of private land and, uh, Bureau of Land Management land out there, BLM, um, into one contiguous chunk, remove as many fences as you can, and allow that chunk of prairie to basically revert back to its natural state with natural species, uh, the American buffalo being like their, their, their big goal species. Right? Um, they're raising ... They've b- done an incredible job raising cash to get this done. Um, they're, they're purchasing these places, um, they would say at fair market value. There's big argument there because they have so much money they're, they're gonna win a bidding process, so is it really fair, would be, is what the local ranchers would say. Um, but right now, and knock on wood, for as long as they exist, they're gonna keep providing public access, and they have a really good public access program. So, um, they, they work with the state of Montana for a private land, public access program where, um, you know, you can sign up, uh, either at just like a kiosk type deal, sign in box, and walk out on their place. Um, but then they have like yurts that you can rent and they'd-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, the kiosk is just it's just set up as you get there?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you, you just put in your name and what time you're going there and ... Do you have to have any kind of ID that you put in there?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Nope.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nothing?
- RCRyan Callaghan
No. No, I mean, uh, the state of Montana won't ask for your license plate number. Um, and your, your home address and phone number, and that's it, so ... Um, and then, it's ... I mean, they're going to have a lot of gorgeous ground. Honestly, you know, when we did our, our big float in Montana?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Uh, they own, uh, some of that property now that, that runs right up to the Missouri right, right there around Cow Island is kind of where we took out real close to there. Um, and they, they own ... I mean, they owned some of the stuff that we hiked around on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. Yeah. But their, their, their vision is to have this big contiguous chunk and have it run like a, you know, pre-European civilization here on the North American continent.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. Yeah. And it's ... I mean, it's gorgeous stuff and, uh, they, they provide for some, uh, buffalo hunts out there, so you can draw a tag and, uh, go out and shoot, uh, a yearling or an old bull. And they give you a ... It's not like a hand hold thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
When they say an old bull, uh, how do you determine?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Just by sheer size.
- JRJoe Rogan
Eyesight? Just size.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- 52:05 – 1:00:33
Bison history and Yellowstone management: brucellosis, ‘zone of tolerance,’ and tribal harvest
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? Which is kind of weird. But yeah, the Yellowstone thing is weird. I, I went there a few years back with my family, and it's really beautiful and I enjoyed it, but I did not like the fact that all the elk were hanging out at the visitor's station.
- RCRyan Callaghan
You're right.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause they know they can't be hunted there, and they know the wolves won't go there. It was real weird.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're like so domesticated, they're just w- like 30 yards away from a fucking vending machine.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You see this big herd of elk just laying down on the ground, staring at people, and people taking selfies with the-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the animals. I'm like, "Uh, I don't know about this."
- RCRyan Callaghan
I know. I know. Yeah. Habituated as shit-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... as a lot of my biologist friends would say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Um, yeah. It's ... The national parks system, right, is like, it's a w- absolute wonderful thing. Um, I know there's lots of dedicated civil servants within the national parks system that bust their asses educating folks, but they just can't keep up.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Have you ever seen the, the Instagram page Tour Ons of Yellowstone?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. Doing God's work right there. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Darwin in action. If you go to it, so like people are just getting launched through the air by bison.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, God, how do they not know by now? I mean, how do you not know that you can't get close?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Because of the exact, exact thing you're describing. They're like, "Oh. It's on the tour."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
It's like, uh, it's, uh ... Fortunately, they've trained the bison to stand right next to the visitor information sign, or the bull elk, or whatever, right? It's like this just is the way it's supposed to be.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then they'll walk right up to it to try to get a selfie.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fucking ... Here's one. Oh, wow.
- NANarrator
Nothing happens here besides- They're just close as shit.
- 1:00:33 – 1:07:52
Ancient boneyards and Younger Dryas: Alaska fossils, research control, and museum controversy
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you know about the boneyard?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know about that place?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That place is nuts.
- RCRyan Callaghan
For a dude who likes to pick stuff off the ground-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... that's, uh, that's like a porn page.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah. It's a, it's a crazy place. And there, there's no real explanation of why there's such a population of dead animals in this one spot, you know? And he thinks it's connected to the Younger Dryas impact theory, 'cause there's a very clear, distinct line of carbon in his ground.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like that, you know, when you go deep, deep, deep into the ground, which represents where these, like a lot of these things that he's pulling, they're plus 10,000 years old.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like that, that stepped bison head, we didn't get it checked, we didn't have it sent off, but-
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... a lot of stuff he has, dated b- b- you know, older than 10,000 years. And so, what he thinks is that this is one of the areas where there was an impact. You know, this younger dryas impact theory, there's two time periods. One is alon- around 11,800 years ago, and then there's another one somewhere around 10,000-plus years ago. And, uh, he thinks one of those areas is where he was, or where his spot in Alaska is. And this d- deep, rich layer of carbon seems to indicate some massive burn that happened through that area. And it coincides with this, uh, immense pile of bones and ivory and, and, you know, m- mammoth skeletons and cave bears and all this r- shit. Like, it's a small area. You know, his area's only like ... The area where they're pulling these bones from is only a few acres.
- RCRyan Callaghan
No way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He thinks it was a wash. So, with the impact came this immediate, um, melting of a lot of the, the ice caps, you know. And this is what they think happened that ended the Ice Age in North America. You know, 10,000-plus years ago, you're looking at a, more than a mile high ice in a giant chunk of North America. And then, almost instantaneously, that stuff gets melted. And this is ... This coincides with Randall Carlson's theories about this too, which are also w- was unsubstantiated until they came up with the core samples for the younger dryas impact theory, and they go, "No, this happened." Like, there, there was a fucking massive impact. Somewhere around 30% of the entire world was hit by comets. And, um, this area where John has, look at this, 2.1 to 2.3 acres.
- RCRyan Callaghan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So, if you look at the amount of stuff that he has ... I mean, 2.3 acres is like, a nice yard, right? It's like a nice ... A person's really ... Oh, you got a nice piece of land here, nice yard.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's where he's pulling thousands of dead animals.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if you look at his, his boneyard. If you look at some of the, um, some of the warehouses that he has. This is his Instagram page, um, boneyard_alaska is the Instagram page. But he's got enormous warehouses filled with tusks, and it's only from a couple acres.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah, so they didn't walk to that spot and tip over. They got-
- JRJoe Rogan
Exactly, they all got washed-
- RCRyan Callaghan
... it collected there-
- JRJoe Rogan
... into there.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yep, exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and very similar time period. Look at all this stuff, man.
- RCRyan Callaghan
(laughs)
- 1:07:52 – 1:12:58
Food, water, and land value: Colorado River irrigation, fake meat backlash, and monocrop costs
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yep. Yeah. (laughs) That's one of the things, uh, that you can tell people. It's like, "Do you want... You wanna know why public lands matter? Uh, 97% of winter vegetables consumed in the US, that are from the US, are irrigated by the Colorado River."
- JRJoe Rogan
97%.
- RCRyan Callaghan
So, if your mommies and daddies are out there eating a nice green salad in the winter months, all that is fed by water from public land.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Like, do we want that shit to be privatized?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Like, what happens then?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, Bill Gates already owns more farmland in this country than anybody.
- RCRyan Callaghan
You know, I keep hearing that. Is he doing good stuff with it?
- JRJoe Rogan
There's no way.
- RCRyan Callaghan
No?
- JRJoe Rogan
No. There's no way. I can't imagine that.
- RCRyan Callaghan
What's his angle?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know. Well, I know he was in the, the fucking veggie burger business for a while, but that shit went tits up.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Dude, I am so anti, anti the lab grown and, and... Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that stuff's not even a real burger. It's filled with seed oils and all these fucking, all this goo that you need to make sure that it connects together, and then people would pretend that it's delicious. "Oh, this is delicious. You can't even tell the difference." You can't tell the difference? Where are you getting your burgers?
- RCRyan Callaghan
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause y- you're eating cardboard burger. This is bullshit.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's just bad for you. You know, that, that's where it went tits up when they, those studies that came out that said it's giving lab rat cancer.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Well, I, listen, I think it's just bad for all of us because if people think that your food can come from some place other than the land-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
... then there's no value to that land.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's vegetable-based, right? But then, it's highly processed. It's not like, you know, you're eating an eggplant, you know? You're not eating a squash. You're, you're eating something that's gone through this insane process to make... pretend that it's a burger. And, you know, there's a lot of investors who lost a shit ton of money because they were lied to. They were told that this is gonna be easy to make, and it's gonna be really convenient, and people are gonna love it, and people are looking for an alternative to meat. No. They're... Actually, they're not, you know? And this was the only thing that was... My buddy, Duncan, uh, he was living in North Carolina, and when COVID came and, you know, there was a lot of shortages in the supermarkets, and the lockdowns, and all that jazz, he's like, "The only shit that's available here is this fucking bullshit fake meat." Like, fake meat was the on-... He to-... He sent a picture. It was the only thing left on the shelf, was like Beyond Meat or Beyond Burger, whatever the fuck it's called, Impossible Burger. Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
That's a good litmus test, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, exactly.
- 1:12:58 – 1:25:55
Grassland species as policy test cases: lesser prairie chicken, CRP, and Farm Bill incentives
- RCRyan Callaghan
Like, these animals on the landscape that have been doi- been doing things forever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Like, they just don't adjust to things. You know, I was talking about like the, the, the prairie, how we're losing two million acres of prairie a year. Well, uh, there's this super badass little chicken, lesser prairie chicken, super charismatic little dude. Dances, puts his tail fan up, big cheek flares, and, uh, game bird.... used to be in the, possibly into the millions in that, that time that you described when Lewis and Clark were, were coming out onto the prairie. Um, it is a prairie bird to the point where it will not nest within, oh god, I wanna say, six acres of a vertical structure of any size.
- JRJoe Rogan
Interesting.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Right? So there are no trees on the prairie, no fence posts, and this bird can't nest if it's around any sort of a vertical anything. Like, 'cause that's just the way its brain is wired.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- RCRyan Callaghan
And that shit is so inconvenient for people that, uh, it's just hit the endangered species list.
- JRJoe Rogan
So is that because it has to be completely away from all predators, that it has to know where everything is?
- RCRyan Callaghan
I think it's gotta be, it's gotta be something like that, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it doesn't fly?
- RCRyan Callaghan
It does fly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Does it fly like a chicken does, like short periods?
- RCRyan Callaghan
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Or does it fly like a turkey?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Um, there's like a colloquial, you know, uh, hunter name where they just call prairie birds chickens. Um, it's not a chicken at all, but it's, it's like a little grouse species.
- JRJoe Rogan
What does it look like?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you see if you can pull it up?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. So, uh, but it's a great test case for the greater sage grouse.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, a cool looking little animal.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Oh.
- NANarrator
That one.
- RCRyan Callaghan
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Which one is it?
- NANarrator
Looks all the same. I can't tell.
- RCRyan Callaghan
It's the, it's a smaller version of that. That's the greater prairie chicken. We're looking for the lesser prairie chicken. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
So the greater prairie chicken, how big is that?
- RCRyan Callaghan
Um, you're looking at like 16 to 18 ounces, I bet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RCRyan Callaghan
You got a size on that sucker?
- 1:25:55 – 1:45:31
Winning the public lands fight: coalition-building, third-rail politics, and avoiding purity tests
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a moment here. We had all these different walks of life come together and be like, "Oh my God, public lands matter." We had all these businesses come together and say, "Public lands matter." I gotta tell you, when I was, uh, chatting with, uh, our buddy Cam Hanes the other day, when I was about to be disconnected for a week, right? And I've been like eating and breathing this, this fight, this stupid lawsuit that came out, uh, last year. Then, uh, it's in the House. Oh my God. We get it pulled out of the House, thank God. Then it goes to the Senate. Oh my G-... M- Mike Lee introduces the damn thing in the Senate, sneaks his language in, blindsides everybody. And I gotta get on a plane to go to the Arctic. And there's this little, like, bellwether moment where I look at... I make like a last Instagram post, last thing I can do, and I see Cameron Hanes is like, "You guys, you gotta get off your asses and, and call your senators. They're selling our public land." And the same day, um, uh, Josh Smith from, uh, Montana Knife Company did it too. And I bring those two guys up as examples, because they were also like, like on the, the mega train, right? They were like, uh, pro-Trump in through the election. They're representing the, the right side of the political spectrum. And when that moment happened, I did draw like a little, little breath of relief right there. I was like, "Okay."
- JRJoe Rogan
And people that aren't afraid to criticize aspects of the Big Beautiful Bill.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RCRyan Callaghan
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RCRyan Callaghan
And, and they're not afraid to say, "Yeah, we voted for this guy, but this part of the, the pie sucks. It's super important to us that this gets pulled out of here, and we're gonna go to, go to the mat for it." And I'm like, that is, that is the thing, right? We have people who aren't so self-conscious that they're like, "Oh God, I said this thing a month ago. I can't come out and say what I really think right now, 'cause that would kinda contradict what I said a month ago."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- RCRyan Callaghan
You know? And that gave me like... really, really made me feel good. I'm like, "Okay, things are g- are starting to go our way now." Because all the other people who were afraid to say the same thing were like, "Oh, thank God some other people with a big microphone came out and said it. So now I feel emboldened to stand up publicly for what I believe in."
Episode duration: 2:12:31
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Transcript of episode D7HlnKdkz7M
