Joe Rogan Experience #2352 - James Talarico

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JTJames Talarico0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) How are you, James?

   4. JTJames Talarico0:13

      I'm doing well. How are you?

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Very good. Nice to meet you.

   6. JTJames Talarico0:16

      It's nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      My pleasure. I found out about you from my friend, Brian Simpson. He was, uh, in the green room of the Comedy Mothership, and he was telling me how excited he was about you.

   8. JTJames Talarico0:26

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      He said he watched some lecture. I think, I think it was probably y- not a lecture, a speech you were giving about the Ten Commandments in schools. And so then I watched it and I said, "Oh, okay."

   10. JTJames Talarico0:39

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       "This is very interesting." So I thought we'd have a cool conversation.

   12. JTJames Talarico0:42

       Yeah. Well, I, I'm, uh, I'm just honored to be here.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       My pleasure.

   14. JTJames Talarico0:46

       Thanks for including me.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Thank you. Honored to have you. It's a, always, um, interesting to see a person who is a Christian who is, uh, not for-

   16. JTJames Talarico0:57

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       ... of the Ten Commandments-

   18. JTJames Talarico0:58

       Sure.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       ... in schools.

   20. JTJames Talarico0:59

       Yeah. Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       And I think you made a very compelling argument, you know?

   22. JTJames Talarico1:03

       Yeah. You know, I, I've gotten that a lot. People who are like, "You're, you're in seminary, you're studying to become a minister, why wouldn't you want the Ten Commandments in every classroom?" So I recognize that it's kind of a, a weird position to be in, but I grew up in a tradition that cherished the separation of church and state. Um, not just because it protects the church or, um, protects democracy, but it is what allows this, um, this democracy to happen where we can all have different faith traditions and live together in peace. Um, and so any attempt to erode that boundary, I feel like I have a special obligation to speak out against it. And so I, I told my colleagues that I thought the bill was unconstitutional. I thought the bill was un-American. But I, I went one step further and I said I thought the bill was un-Christian, which again probably sounds weird to people, but in all of Jesus' teachings, he's always focused on the outsider, the outcast, the person who's left out or the person who's different. And so as a Christian, I, I think my concern is for the Muslim kid and the Jewish kid, the Hindu kid, the atheist kid who's sitting in the classroom who now has a poster on the wall forced by the government that says, you know, "Your religion is inferior." Or, "You're not welcome here." And I just think if, if Jesus saw that, he would weep for those students and, and would demand that we love them as ourselves. And so that's why I, I kinda spoke out against the bill on theological grounds, not just constitutional grounds.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       So what is the bill? Can you explain?

   24. JTJames Talarico2:37

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:38

       Yeah.

   26. JTJames Talarico2:38

       So the bill forces every teacher in the state to display the Ten Commandments in their classrooms.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:43

       Is this even in private schools?

   28. JTJames Talarico2:44

       It's only public schools, um, i- 'cause that's really where we have authority as the state legislature. And the bill, this is gonna sound weird, but it even, uh, specifies how big the poster is, uh, the dimensions of it. It has to be-

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       How big is it supposed to be?

   30. JTJames Talarico2:59

       It has to be in a conspicuous place. It's basically the size of a, of a sheet of paper, regular sheet of paper.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Is it in the…

   1. JTJames Talarico15:00

      hurt and control other people. You know, uh, let's, let's take the, the is- issue of homosexuality in particular. Uh, one, it's something Jesus never talks about even though, uh, gay people existed in the ancient world.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      Is it in the Old Testament?

   3. JTJames Talarico15:15

      So, there, in the Old Testament, there is a, a prohibition, um, against men lying with other men.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      Right.

   5. JTJames Talarico15:22

      And here's the thing, and any biblical scholar will tell you this, in, in a lot of ways we're dealing with ancient euphemisms, and it's hard to tell what a euphemism means thousands of years later, right? Um, I had a professor at seminary, this is gonna sound weird, but he was like, "Think about 2,000 years from now how difficult it'll be for people to tell the difference between a butt dial and a booty call." (laughs) Right? Like, those are two things that sound very similar on a piece of paper and they have very different meanings.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:51

      Hmm.

   7. JTJames Talarico15:52

      And so-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:52

      That's funny.

   9. JTJames Talarico15:53

      ... you know, so like, in, in, uh, in the Hebrew Bible, you do have this, this prohibition. We're not sure exactly what it means and, and if we're taking it just literally, does that mean that we're also pro- uh, we're prohibiting same-sex relationships between women? Right? 'Cause that's not prohibited in, in that particular scripture.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       How is it described? So, what is the actual passage?

   11. JTJames Talarico16:16

       I, I mean, that's, that's the one I just gave to you about men.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       What is the punishment?

   13. JTJames Talarico16:20

       I mean, I think in, in most of these, uh, violations of the law, you know, the punishment, if it's, you know, called an abomination, this punishment can sometimes be death. And this is true of eating certain foods, of planting two crops, different crops next to each other. I mean-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Wearing two different types of cloth.

   15. JTJames Talarico16:37

       Sure. Sure. And again-

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:39

       Yeah.

   17. JTJames Talarico16:39

       A- again, I'm not a rabbi, so I, I, I hesitate to be able to speak with authority on the Jewish scriptures. But, you know, these were, this was a, a people who had, um, who had found freedom from slavery in Egypt, and they were trying to be able to set themselves apart from the, that domination that they knew in Egypt. They wanted a, a completely new world where God was in charge, not some pharaoh, not some emperor. So this was a radical community they were trying to build, and so they put rules in place to remind themselves that while it may only take a few, you know, it may take, uh, a few weeks to get out of an empire, it takes a lifetime to get the empire out of you. So we now, 2,000, 3,000 years later in terms of the Jewish scriptures, we're now reading it with modern eyes, trying to interpret what they mean and then apply it to our modern context. One, I think that's s- sloppy theology. Two, I think it's disrespectful to the Jewish people. Three, it's a misunderstanding of Christianity because the whole idea of, of Jesus' movement was that he was, um, simplifying the law, right? He simplified it into two commandments, love God and love neighbor. Those are the only two commandments that, that we Christians should keep our focus on. And Jesus regularly got into conflicts with the religious authorities. All right? Jesus was always getting in trouble with the church of his time because he is rejecting legalism and embracing the spirit of the law, which is loving your neighbor as yourself. And so in our modern context, that should mean loving, um, our gay neighbors as ourselves. Um, and so to me, you know, when I'm looking at the teachings of Jesus, I think it's very clear how we should treat those who are different, those who are left out, those who are, who are on the edges.... and I think trying to, to take the Hebrew tradition and, and interpret it for our own political benefit is, is really, there's a lot of violence to that scripture. I mean, the word homosexuality wasn't even invented until the 19th century.

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       Mm.

   19. JTJames Talarico18:42

       So if you see the word homosexuality in your Bible, that's an interpretation, that's a translation, um, of a ... and using a word that didn't even come around until thousands of years later.

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:52

       Well, what do you think it meant in the Old Testament, though? If you're looking at a literal translation of it, a man lying with another man is an abomination, what do you, what do you think they were trying to accomplish?

   21. JTJames Talarico19:03

       It-

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:03

       And where do you think it came from?

   23. JTJames Talarico19:04

       It could be a whole host of things. I mean, some of these things were put in, in place for health reasons. Um, you know, obviously they didn't have modern medicine, and so, you know, if there were things that were considered hazardous, um, to your physical wellbeing, sometimes those were included in, in, in the law. Um, preserving family structure, right? Um, you obviously had a patriarchal structure in the ancient world where it wasn't just about, you know, your commitment to your wife. It really was about, um, you know, uh, um, what will ... how land and wealth we passed on to children. Um, and so all those things were important to protect that family structure. So some of these, some of these, um, these ancient commandments, which again, I don't claim to, to know what the original meaning was, may have been put in place for some of those reasons. But again, if this was something that really was central to Jesus's ministry, I would think he would've said something about it, right? We have four Gospels with tons of teachings from Jesus, and none of them are about this. So it just ... I get suspicious when anybody, whether it's a, um, a televangelist (laughs) or a politician tells me that something is central to my faith when Jesus never talks about it.

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:18

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JTJames Talarico20:18

       To me, uh, that should, I think, ring alarm bells, um, as to what is the agenda here. Um, what is someone trying to, to get across? And I think if we're looking at the last 40, 50 years, the religious right has made a concerted effort to make homosexuality and abortion the two biggest issues for Christians. And, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention was pro-choice until the late 1970s. (laughs) So this, this idea that to be a Christian means you have to be anti-gay and anti-abortion, there really is no historical, theological, Biblical basis for that opinion.

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:55

       Well, when was abortion even invented?

   27. JTJames Talarico20:58

       Well, there were certainly abortions in the ancient world. There, there is some-

   28. JRJoe Rogan21:01

       How did they-

   29. JTJames Talarico21:02

       Well, there's some ... There's ... Uh, and again, I haven't studied this enough to, to say this definitively, but there are interpretations of certain passages from the Torah where some folks will even say that there is a, um, there is some subtle instructions for how to perform an abortion in the ancient world, certain things to drink, things like that. Um, the point is that this idea that there is a set Christian orthodoxy on the issue of abortion i- is just not rooted in scripture. We can have a, uh, an honest debate about it. If Pope Francis, you know, were to come back and sit at this table and tell me, you know, "James, I'm pro-life and anti-abortion. Here's my theological argument," I, I am here to listen and respect that opinion. I have, I have dear friends who, who are anti-abortion. All I'm asking is that for Christians who are pro-choice and who respect the bodily autonomy of women that we be given the space to make our theological argument 'cause I think there is a lot of, uh, of Biblical evidence to support that opinion.

   30. JRJoe Rogan22:05

       What do you think is the Biblical evidence to support the opinion of being pro-abortion?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      ... Like say if a woman travels to see her in-laws or her, her parents or something like that and then has a miscarriage.

   2. JTJames Talarico30:07

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:07

      That was ... That to me, was very creepy, that if this woman had traveled somewhere where abortion is legal and then lost her baby, they would then be accused even if-

   4. JTJames Talarico30:19

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:19

      ... they had not had an abortion. They would be questioned and that to me, is incredibly insensitive. Peo- especially when you take into consideration some of these women might not have had abortions at all.

   6. JTJames Talarico30:31

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:31

      They might have just lost the baby, which happens quite often where there are miscarriages.

   8. JTJames Talarico30:36

      It's f- It's interesting you bring up miscarriages because you know, if I'm ... Again, trying to take people at their word, trying to assume the best intentions and, and hear a good faith argument on the other side of this.... i- if my concern is with the life of an embryo or the life of a fetus, the greatest threat to that life is a miscarriage. I, I mean, if your, if your concern is, is how many embryos or fetuses we're losing, the, the, um, the number that we lose to miscarriage versus the number we lose to abortion, I mean, it's dwarfed. And so I'm always, I'm always interested why the pro-life movement is not more interested in figuring out how we prevent more miscarriages. Because if, again, if your concern is, is, is that, um, embryonic life, it seems like finding ways to prevent miscarriage, which we have best practices that can do it, right? Making sure people are covered by health insurance, um, once their pregnancy starts. I mean, that is, that's a, uh, that is a huge opportunity to prevent miscarriages. You're not gonna prevent all of them, but there are things we could do to, to stop it. And so the fact that all the attention is on abortion rather than on some of these other things that maybe we could all agree on, um, to me, again, it, it, it makes me suspicious about the true motives of some of these politicians and some of these, these, um, activists who are pushing some of these bans. Uh, 'cause it doesn't seem like it's about children. It doesn't seem like it's about mothers and women and girls. It does seem like it's about control, um, and I think that's what we see across this Christian nationalist movement is controlling what you do with your own body, controlling what you read, uh, controlling what you learn, controlling where you travel. I mean, this is religion at its worst-

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:19

      Right.

   10. JTJames Talarico32:19

       ... is trying to control people and what they do.

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:22

       How do you define Christian nationalism? What is that to you?

   12. JTJames Talarico32:24

       Yeah. (sighs) So I think there's lots of different ways you could describe it. The way I define it is a little broader. Um, I say Christian nationalism is the worship of power, um, whether it's social power, economic power, political power, in the name of Christ. And, and I think it's relevant to describe it this way because it's something we've struggled with within the Christian church from the very beginning. So the first followers of Jesus didn't even call themselves Christians. They called themselves The Way because their crucified teacher had taught them a different way of being human, um, a different way of relating to other people, of, of understanding your relationship to neighbor and to God, and this transformed them. They became these, um, peculiar people is how the Bible describes it (laughs) because they didn't participate in the economy, the military, the culture. Um, they were persecuted because they turned the world upside down. Again, that's how it's described in Acts. But 300 years after that, after the Roman Empire crucified Jesus, Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of that very same empire, the same empire that crucified Jesus. So this is 300 years later, and now Christianity is the official sponsor of, of the empire, of Western civilization.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:46

       Do you think Constantine was a Christian, like, legitimately? Or do you think that he was using it?

   14. JTJames Talarico33:52

       It's always hard to tell, uh, with politicians, and I say this as a politician myself.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:56

       When was he baptized? When was Constantine baptized?

   16. JTJames Talarico33:57

       Well, he was baptized, uh, I don't know the year, but he was baptized after he had this, this, um, this vision before a, uh, decisive battle when he saw the cross and, and decided f- uh, that his soldiers would put the cross as part of their emblem, and then they won that battle, right? Um, which, you know, who knows if it was 'cause of his vision or not. But it started a trend which we've struggled with for literally, you know, f- more than 1,500 years of powerful people, you know, emperors, (laughs) billionaires, (laughs) uh, dictators, um, megachurch pastors using religion to protect their own wealth and power.

   17. JRJoe Rogan34:41

       Yeah.

   18. JTJames Talarico34:42

       And to me, Christian nationalism is just the latest iteration of that, whether it's the Ten Commandments bill, whether it's the bill, I don't know if you, if you read about this, uh, a bill that we passed that allows schools to replace school counselors with untrained, unsupervised religious chaplains, um, sometimes people who go online and become a chaplain within, you know, five minutes. Uh, you know, that to me, again, is an example of Christian nationalism. It's, it's using the state, it's using political power to elevate one religious tradition over all the others. It's using governmental power to dominate our neighbors instead of loving them as ourselves, which is exactly what we're called to do as Christians. Um, and then of course, most recently, we saw this bill that defunded public schools here in Texas to subsidize private Christian schools, um, and, and to me, again, that is the, uh, a bill that's right in the middle of this Christian nationalist movement to erode the separation of church and state and, um, force a certain interpretation of Christianity on everybody against their wills.

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:47

       Yeah, there's this, uh, this narrative that this is a Christian nation, and this-

   20. JTJames Talarico35:52

       Sure.

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:53

       ... is, uh, uh, it was founded as a Christian nation, and I think they, they call upon that-

   22. JTJames Talarico35:58

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan35:59

       ... when they're making these decisions and talking about it in this very particular way.

   24. JTJames Talarico36:04

       Yeah, and it, and, uh, I think no, no one would disagree that Christianity was, was influential in the founding of this country, um, and it's still influential. I mean, it's suffused throughout our culture, our politics, um, i- it is a central part of who we are as a nation. But I think it's really important to clarify that we were not founded as a Christian nation. We were founded as a nation where you are free to be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Sikh or a Buddhist or an atheist. I mean, that is the, that's the promise of America is that we are this multicultural melting pot, um, where no, no one is told how to pray, um, and no religion's elevated over the others.

   25. JRJoe Rogan36:46

       It's also important to point out that it wasn't in the Pledge of Allegiance until communism was an issue in this country.

   26. JTJames Talarico36:53

       Yeah, and, and, you know, to be fair, the, the Declaration of Independence does mention a creator. And now, it doesn't necessarily mention the Christian God, but it does mention a creator. I think probably in a, in a deliberate intent to be, um...... less sectarian, um, and more open. I mean, a lot of our founders, if we're being honest, um, some of them weren't religious at all. You know, Thomas Paine. And then a lot of them weren't really what we would consider Christians today, a lot of them were deists, um, where they, you know, they saw the, they saw God as this impersonal clockmaker who created the universe and stepped away.

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:29

       Clockmaker.

   28. JTJames Talarico37:30

       And I'm not, I'm not, um-

   29. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       That's an interesting way of describing it.

   30. JTJames Talarico37:34

       Well, and I'm not, I'm not-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JTJames Talarico45:00

      my life whenever I've felt that doubt, I've always fallen back on faith. Faith is the thing that is kind of the foundation for me. And so in that second term, I thought about quitting altogether. I thought about resigning my seat and just going off to do other things that maybe would be more fruitful. But through a lot of praying and a lot of soul-searching and a lot of meditation, I made a slightly different choice, which was to go to seminary and go back to school and go through the process of becoming a minister. My granddad was a Baptist minister in South Texas, and so it was a part of my, part of my upbringing. And I had really not thought about doing it myself, but I think I had just, um... Loving thy neighbor is really hard sometimes (laughs) and I, the work I do in the legislature is my attempt to love my neighbor through the bills I pass, through the work that I do on prescription drugs, on childcare, on public schools, on justice reform. Um, but I was losing faith on whether I was actually doing what I came here to do, and so I made that decision to go to seminary to follow Jesus' first commandment, which is to love God. Those are the two commandments he gave us, love God and love neighbor. And as a seminarian and a lawmaker, I'm kind of (laughs) , I'm starting to figure out how these two commands, how they relate to each other. How they sustain each other. Um, you need that, that inner life, which I feel like I'm cultivating at seminary, and then you also need this outer life of, how does that impact your relationships and the work you do out in the world?

   2. JRJoe Rogan46:33

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JTJames Talarico46:34

      And you really can't have one without the other 'cause if you do, the, the second one, the work out in the world, you can burn out so easily, which I, I think I was about to burn out in that second term. Um, if it's, you can burn out if it's not sustained by that love of God. And I, again, I don't mean God as that word is charged for a lot of people. I don't mean like a sectarian religious orthodoxy definition. I just mean that ground of your being, whatever that is.

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:59

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JTJames Talarico47:01

      Anyway, I don't know if that answers your, your original question, but-

   6. JRJoe Rogan47:03

      What was the, the main struggle? Like, what, what were you facing in the House that was causing you to have this crisis?

   7. JTJames Talarico47:12

      Well, so there were several bills. I mentioned the abortion ban. Um, there were a few others.

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:16

      Was it dealing with the human beings though? Was it the, the actual-

   9. JTJames Talarico47:19

      So, so the bill, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Um, toward the end of that legislative session, my Republican colleagues brought a... Again, this is the most, this is the way I would describe it, a voter suppression bill, making it more difficult to vote in the state of Texas. Again, Texas is, is probably the hardest place to vote in the country, just in terms of the paperwork, the requirements, the, the, the hoops you gotta jump through.

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:45

       How so though?

   11. JTJames Talarico47:46

       Um, there's a whole host of things. Um, you know, the fact that we don't have online voter registration in the state when a lot of other states do. I mean, think of all the things you do online. Voter registration is not one of them. The IDs that now count for, for registering to vote or voting are very selective. So for instance, if you've got a concealed carry license, that license counts as ID, which I agree that it should, but a student ID from a college or a university doesn't count as an ID.

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:13

       You have to get a driver's license.

   13. JTJames Talarico48:15

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, you gotta go get a driver's license. Um, and again, but for someone like-

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:18

       What about a passport, passport would work, right?

   15. JTJames Talarico48:19

       Yeah, a passport. But again, like, I didn't have a passport for most of my life, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:23

       Right.

   17. JTJames Talarico48:23

       I didn't, I didn't travel outside the country till I was, you know, an ad- I was in my 30s. Um, and so I didn't have a passport. A, a lot of people don't have a driver's license, especially older folks. Um, so the point is that these rules get added on top of each other and make it even more difficult. One of the main-

   18. JRJoe Rogan48:42

       What, what do these rules, what, what's the reason for these rules? Is the rules, they're trying to keep people that are non-citizens from being able to vote, right?

   19. JTJames Talarico48:51

       Well, not exactly.

   20. JRJoe Rogan48:52

       No?

   21. JTJames Talarico48:52

       I mean, there is that concern. There's al- but, and here's where it kinda breaks down.

   22. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       What's the main concern? If you're being cynical.

   23. JTJames Talarico48:58

       The main concern is voter, voter impersonation.

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:00

       Uh-huh.

   25. JTJames Talarico49:01

       Which is the idea that I would show up to vote as if I was someone else.

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:05

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JTJames Talarico49:05

       Like I was gonna go and impersonate Joe Rogan and vote for Joe Rogan.

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:08

       That does happen though, right?

   29. JTJames Talarico49:11

       V- Vanishingly few incidences of this happening.

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:13

       Right, because shouldn't there be zero?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      to get ahead. So if something comes along that takes care of that aspect of life, so if universal basic income can provide you with food and shelter, now you no longer have to think about food, you no longer have to think about shelter. Now, you have to find meaning. The problem is, for a lot of people, there are so many distractions that are unproductive, like social media, like video games, like many things that people participate in all day long, and then you add in a factor of drug addiction and partying and a lot of other fruitless li- things that people participate in. If you only were living for the l- for- first 35 years of your life just to deal with food and shelter, and now food and shelter is provided for you, now, at 35, you have to sort of reformulate your view of the world and find meaning-

   2. JTJames Talarico1:00:59

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:59

      ... and find something, and maybe you're an atheist, so you don't-

   4. JTJames Talarico1:01:03

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

      ... you don't find meaning in religion-

   6. JTJames Talarico1:01:05

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

      ... and you don't have any desire to find meaning in religion. Okay. Well, you- what do you do? And how do you educate these people, and how do you... I, I think there's gonna be an upheaval, the likes of which we have never seen before, and there's gonna be a lot of chaos, and it's gonna be very, very uncomfortable for a lot of people. I think we're gonna d- deal with unprecedented levels of addiction, whether it is with drugs or with, uh, w- s- well, fill in the blank.

   8. JTJames Talarico1:01:30

      Soc- yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:30

      Whatever, whether gambling, whatever things that people get addicted to, because I think people are gonna look for thrills. They're gonna look for something that entices them, that gives them some excitement, because they're, they're just getting a check every month.

   10. JTJames Talarico1:01:43

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:44

       Unfortunately, just the way humans are wired, that's not good for us. We know that from-We know that from lottery winners.

   12. JTJames Talarico1:01:52

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

       Like people get an enormous chunk of money, you might win $200 million-

   14. JTJames Talarico1:01:57

       Yep.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:57

       ... you hit the mega bonus, whatever the hell it is, and then you're living in hell.

   16. JTJames Talarico1:02:02

       Yes.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:02:02

       For whatever reason, you don't like it.

   18. JTJames Talarico1:02:04

       Yep.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:02:04

       You, you, you now find yourself surrounded by people that are trying to take money from you. You feel like you're a target. You, uh, all the people that you grew up with and all the people that know, now are looking for handouts. And it gets really crazy. And most of them wind up penniless within a short period of time.

   20. JTJames Talarico1:02:22

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:22

       I think it's like w- how many years is it where most lottery winners wind up broke? I think it's like less than 20 years.

   22. JTJames Talarico1:02:29

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:29

       Even when they have enormous amounts of money.

   24. JTJames Talarico1:02:30

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:31

       So like, the only thing that you can do for those people is to somehow or another inspire them to live in a different way.

   26. JTJames Talarico1:02:42

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:42

       And I don't think that's a function of the government.

   28. JTJames Talarico1:02:45

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:45

       I think it's a function of individuals and of inspirational people that can provide some sort of an example that differs from what they're surrounded by.

   30. JTJames Talarico1:02:54

       I agree. And so if we approach this, when it happens, which I agree, it's about to happen, and I don't think any of us are ready for it, if we approach it as a technological problem or even an economic problem, I think we're missing the, the full picture here, 'cause I do agree with you that it is a, it is primarily first and foremost a spiritual problem. And what I do know about human beings is that all of us ask these questions. What is, uh, what does it mean to be a human? What is all this about? Where is my life going? Um, why are we all here? Right? We-
6. 1:15:00 – 1:18:41

   How so? …

   1. JTJames Talarico1:15:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      How so?

   3. JTJames Talarico1:15:00

      ... it's a lot more, a lot more like middle school than people think. Um, the egos, the, the drama, the-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

      Yeah.

   5. JTJames Talarico1:15:06

      ... you know, just all of it is, I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:07

      Isn't it crazy how no one gets past that?

   7. JTJames Talarico1:15:10

      Yeah, I mean, (laughs) s- well, we could talk about this all day, but I have, there are lots of stories I have where I'm just blown away by the, the ego.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:21

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JTJames Talarico1:15:21

      And again, I have an ego, you have an ego. There's no way you can do this kind of-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:15:25

       Yeah.

   11. JTJames Talarico1:15:25

       ... difficult work without an ego that, you know, uh, to, to be able to say, "I wanna make decisions for 200,000 constituents," I mean, that's the job I have, right? I mean, that takes a certain amount of ego-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:15:35

       Sure.

   13. JTJames Talarico1:15:35

       ... to make those kinda decisions.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:15:37

       You just can't let the ego be the boss.

   15. JTJames Talarico1:15:38

       Correct. And this was the pro- I mean, we focus so much on President Biden's age, which I agree was a problem, but I don't th- I don't think we've really discussed that the biggest problem was ego.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:15:50

       Oh, yeah.

   17. JTJames Talarico1:15:50

       It was his inability to step aside and let someone else do the job.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:15:56

       Yes.

   19. JTJames Talarico1:15:56

       Right? I mean-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:15:57

       Well-

   21. JTJames Talarico1:15:57

       ... when it, when it should happen a lot, a lot earlier (laughs) than when it-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:15:59

       It should have never happened in the first place, let's be realistic. In 2020, we all knew, anybody that was paying attention knew that he was compromised.

   23. JTJames Talarico1:16:07

       Yeah. Well, and that he said he was a transitional figure.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:16:11

       Yeah.

   25. JTJames Talarico1:16:11

       I mean, he s- he, I don't know if, how explicit he was, but he certainly made it sound like, you know, he was stepping in so that he could usher in a new generation, and that never happened, because when you get into these offices, and I, again, I'm just a little state rep at a low level, but even I know, like, people call you Representative. The, your mail-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:16:29

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JTJames Talarico1:16:30

       ... your mail says, "The Honorable." (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:16:32

       Yeah, nice.

   29. JTJames Talarico1:16:32

       Right, like yeah, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:16:33

       That's great.

Episode duration: 2:36:54