EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,020 words- 0:00 – 2:35
Why a Christian lawmaker opposes posting the Ten Commandments in public classrooms
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JTJames Talarico
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) How are you, James?
- JTJames Talarico
I'm doing well. How are you?
- JRJoe Rogan
Very good. Nice to meet you.
- JTJames Talarico
It's nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. I found out about you from my friend, Brian Simpson. He was, uh, in the green room of the Comedy Mothership, and he was telling me how excited he was about you.
- JTJames Talarico
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He said he watched some lecture. I think, I think it was probably y- not a lecture, a speech you were giving about the Ten Commandments in schools. And so then I watched it and I said, "Oh, okay."
- JTJames Talarico
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"This is very interesting." So I thought we'd have a cool conversation.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah. Well, I, I'm, uh, I'm just honored to be here.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure.
- JTJames Talarico
Thanks for including me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you. Honored to have you. It's a, always, um, interesting to see a person who is a Christian who is, uh, not for-
- JTJames Talarico
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... of the Ten Commandments-
- JTJames Talarico
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in schools.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think you made a very compelling argument, you know?
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah. You know, I, I've gotten that a lot. People who are like, "You're, you're in seminary, you're studying to become a minister, why wouldn't you want the Ten Commandments in every classroom?" So I recognize that it's kind of a, a weird position to be in, but I grew up in a tradition that cherished the separation of church and state. Um, not just because it protects the church or, um, protects democracy, but it is what allows this, um, this democracy to happen where we can all have different faith traditions and live together in peace. Um, and so any attempt to erode that boundary, I feel like I have a special obligation to speak out against it. And so I, I told my colleagues that I thought the bill was unconstitutional. I thought the bill was un-American. But I, I went one step further and I said I thought the bill was un-Christian, which again probably sounds weird to people, but in all of Jesus' teachings, he's always focused on the outsider, the outcast, the person who's left out or the person who's different. And so as a Christian, I, I think my concern is for the Muslim kid and the Jewish kid, the Hindu kid, the atheist kid who's sitting in the classroom who now has a poster on the wall forced by the government that says, you know, "Your religion is inferior." Or, "You're not welcome here." And I just think if, if Jesus saw that, he would weep for those students and, and would demand that we love them as ourselves. And so that's why I, I kinda spoke out against the bill on theological grounds, not just constitutional grounds.
- 2:35 – 4:16
Inside the Texas Ten Commandments bill: mandates, poster specs, and outside funding networks
- JRJoe Rogan
So what is the bill? Can you explain?
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
So the bill forces every teacher in the state to display the Ten Commandments in their classrooms.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is this even in private schools?
- JTJames Talarico
It's only public schools, um, i- 'cause that's really where we have authority as the state legislature. And the bill, this is gonna sound weird, but it even, uh, specifies how big the poster is, uh, the dimensions of it. It has to be-
- JRJoe Rogan
How big is it supposed to be?
- JTJames Talarico
It has to be in a conspicuous place. It's basically the size of a, of a sheet of paper, regular sheet of paper.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JTJames Talarico
The idea is they didn't want anyone to make it too small, uh, to where-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JTJames Talarico
... someone wouldn't read it. But, um, the bill says that, uh, that the school doesn't have to spend money on it. It can be donated. And, you know, that sounds, sounds fine to most people until you realize there's this huge network of, um, Christian nationalist organizations that are already preparing to flood every school with these Ten Commandments, uh, posters for all of their classrooms. So the donation thing sounds like it's kind of innocuous until you realize that the donations are already ready to go, uh, from all these outside groups. So there's gonna be legal challenges, of course, but, uh, you know, if it's not struck down in the courts, every teacher's gonna have to put up the Ten Commandments in their classroom against their wills, even if they don't want to. I mean, I just, again, speaking as a Christian, if we have to force people to put up a poster, to me that means that we have a dead religion, a, a religion that no longer moves people, a religion that no longer speaks to people's hearts. If we have to prove our legitimacy by micromanaging what teachers put up in their classroom, I mean, that, to me that means we have a real crisis in our faith. Um, we should be leading by example, not by mandate.
- 4:16 – 11:48
How it passed: partisan dynamics, statehouse realities, and the culture-war incentive
- JRJoe Rogan
How did this get proposed and what is the support for it?
- JTJames Talarico
Uh, well, the support is pretty broad within the Republican caucus. Uh, again, I, I serve in the state-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it universal essentially?
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah, I don't think there was a single Republican who voted against it, uh, this time-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JTJames Talarico
... around. Um, and again, I serve in the s- in the state legislature. A lot of people think that I'm a congressman. Uh, I serve here in Austin at the state capitol.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is your position?
- JTJames Talarico
So I'm a state representative. Um, so I serve in ... There are two chambers just like the federal government, a senate and a house. I serve in the, in the house, in the state house. So the Republicans have a majority in the House and in the Senate. I'm a member of the Democratic Party. So I literally can't get anything done without working on a bipartisan basis. Um, I ... It's actually a blessing in this m- this modern era where we're all tribalized and polarized that I am forced to work with people who have completely different views than I do. And, and I actually, you get to know them. In DC, I, from what I hear, I don't, I, I've only been to DC, DC a few times in my life, but from what I hear, you're, you're really kind of separated physically from your colleagues. You don't spend a lot of time talking to each other anymore. It's a lot of fundraising and, and, and events and not really a lot of relationship building. In the state capitol, you don't have the same, uh, media scrutiny, the same spotlight. So we can still get to know each other and go out to eat with each other and meet each other's families. And I actually think it's, uh, it's something that we could benefit from at the national level is that kind of camaraderie and, and, uh, professional, um, working relationships with people across the aisle. Anyway.
- JRJoe Rogan
Tulsi Gabbard told me she tried to do a lot of that-
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you know, when she was a congresswoman.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And she said it was very difficult and she would get pushback from-
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... other Democrats.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah. The s- the system doesn't encourage that at the national level. Here, um, you know, we do not ... I think in, in DC, the minority party appoints, um, the committee chairs and, or ranking members.... here in the, the state level, the Speaker of the House, who is elected by Republicans and Democrats, that's the person who decides what committee you're on and, you know, what bills you can get passed. And so in some ways, that forces you to be loyal to the body rather than loyal to your party or your caucus. Um, again, I- I'm proud to be part of the Democratic caucus, but I can't- I, I literally can't get anything done if I don't have some kind of Republican support. And so that just, and I get a lot, you know, I, I'm able to pass a lot of bills as a Democrat, um, and it's because I have good relationships with, with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle. Um, but yeah. On the 10 Commandments issue, uh, it kind of became one of these culture war fights, and so there wasn't room to, to have kind of an honest conversation about-
- JRJoe Rogan
When did this get proposed?
- JTJames Talarico
... what was difficult. So it originally got proposed, uh, two years ago in 2023 during the regular session. Um, I spoke out against the bill, I kind of kicked up a bunch of dust about the bill, and, uh, it went over, all over social media. And I think that pressure ended up, uh, delaying the bill enough to where it died on the deadline, so it didn't pass. Then it came back this session, 2025, and, uh, eventually passed both chambers and got signed by the governor. So unless it's stopped in the courts, it's gonna be law in the state of Texas.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JTJames Talarico
And I, you know, here's what I try. I try to always, I try to always, uh, take someone's argument at face value and assume best intentions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
This is, this is how I'm able to work in a place like the legislature here in Texas, because I try to listen to what someone's argument is. And if I'm being charitable, the, the best argument for this is that the kids are not all right, young people are growing up without the structure of faith, whether it's the Christian faith, or Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism, whatever it may be, students are just less religious than they once were. People are less religious than they once were. We know that's fact. And, and so this rise in mental health issues, anxiety, depression among young people, there are folks out there, and I would even, uh, put myself in this camp, who say it's that children are growing up in an incoherent universe. There's not a, a tradition, a story that helps, helps them make sense of their lives in a profound, almost cosmic way, which is necessary for human beings. I mean, no matter who you are, you need that, that structure and that, uh, that meaning in your life. And so I recognize that as, that as a problem, but what I firmly and passionately believe is that the government forcing teachers to put up a poster actually makes that problem worse. Because I think, and again, I was a middle school teacher before I became a politician, so I know, I know students, they have the best BS detector around, right? They, they are now going to... I think this bill will create a whole new generation of atheists who think that my religion, my faith tradition, that means everything to me, is more about power than it is about love. And they already kind of think that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
I mean, young people already think that about religion. I think this is just gonna confirm just the worst, um, people's worst inclinations and impulses about organized religion.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I would agree with that. Uh, and it just doesn't make sense that we've always had a separation of church and state. It's v- been very important. And that this, imposing this on, on kids in school, in nonreligious schools, just seems kind of crazy.
- JTJames Talarico
Well, and the, the staunchest defenders for the separation of church and state throughout American history were Protestant Christians.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
Baptists in particular, right? I mean, the, the letter Jefferson writes where he first uses that phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was to the Danbury Baptists, because, I mean, these Protestants were fleeing, um, Europe as religious minorities, right? I mean, this, this is kind of essential to the founding of this country, was religious freedom. And so those Christians understood that once the government starts preaching your religion, starts making decisions about your faith, that that, that doesn't lead anywhere good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
Um, and, and we, so we should be very suspicious of the state usurping the role of pastors and Sunday school teachers. I mean, if you wanna deepen your faith, we have churches on every street corner. A lot of them don't have a lot of people in them, right? We've got mosques and temples and synagogues that are, that have a ton of room in them. And so why would we have the government start to teach kids about or preach a certain religion when we have houses of worship that can do that?
- 11:48 – 14:06
Religion, fear, and the decline in faith: why coercion backfires on young people
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think this is in response to? Like, why, why do you think they're trying to impose this? What is, like, w- what would make them want to put this in schools?
- JTJames Talarico
I think fear.
- JRJoe Rogan
Fear.
- JTJames Talarico
And I get that fear. I just, I, I wanna acknowledge that I also feel this fear that, you know, I look across my church on Sunday mornings and I see a lot of gray hair. Um, I worry about the future of my church, of my faith in this country. I, you know, you, everyone has seen the-... the charts of declining religious participation and, and the decline in, in the number of people-
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think-
- JTJames Talarico
... who belong to faith.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think that's about?
- JTJames Talarico
I think a lot of it is, um, is well justified because organized religion has done a lot of damage to people. Uh, particularly if we're talking about, about this country-
- JRJoe Rogan
Major churches.
- JTJames Talarico
... about this country, it's gonna be Christianity, right? Now, you know, you know, in India, it may be a conversation about Hindu nationalism.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
But, but here the dominant religion is Christianity. Um, and, and, you know, we've seen that too many churches, too many faith leaders have abused that trust. Um, a lot of Gen Z, a lot of my fellow millennials when they hear me talking about, you know, my f- my faith and how it informs my, my public service, they're like, "I've, I've never heard of this kind of Christianity." Right? Like, "I was told that if you wanted to be a Christian, you had to g- hate gay people. Uh, if you wanted to be a Christian, you had to wanna control women. Uh, if you wanted to be a Christian, you had to reject science." And so when Gen Z and, and when millennials were faced with that choice, it was a pretty easy choice for them, right? They chose their gay friends, they chose women's rights, they chose believing in science. And that, in my opinion, was always a false choice. Um, and in fact, a lot of those positions that I just mentioned are, are contrary to biblical values, to the teachings of Jesus. And so, you know, there's always gonna be progressive Christians and conservative Christians. That's a very healthy debate we should always have. But in this country, it's become synonymous with right-wing politics. So much so that when people hear I'm a Christian politician, they just assume I'm a R- I'm a Republican.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
(laughs) I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
... it's just I, I think that has pushed a lot of, a lot of people away.
- 14:06 – 22:05
Where anti-gay and anti-abortion politics came from—and what Jesus did (and didn’t) say
- JRJoe Rogan
So, where does that come from? Okay. Let's, let's start with gay.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where, where does this rejection of gay rights come from?
- JTJames Talarico
Well, I think broadly we should say that using religion to control other people is a tale as old as time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, sure.
- JTJames Talarico
Right? I mean, this is powerful stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JTJames Talarico
Um, it's part of why I made the decision to go to seminary, 'cause I was like, "If I'm gonna talk about my faith, um, and my beliefs and my values in a public setting or on this podcast when millions of people are gonna listen, I better know what I'm talking about."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
Um, I, I better be thoughtful in how I, I approach these things because it has real power on people's lives. And so I think, um, you've seen that from the beginning of the Christian tradition. You've seen it across traditions of those in power, whether it's people with political power, social power-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
... in, in terms of homosexuality, um, or economic power, using that faith to hurt and control other people. You know, uh, let's, let's take the, the is- issue of homosexuality in particular. Uh, one, it's something Jesus never talks about even though, uh, gay people existed in the ancient world.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it in the Old Testament?
- JTJames Talarico
So, there, in the Old Testament, there is a, a prohibition, um, against men lying with other men.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JTJames Talarico
And here's the thing, and any biblical scholar will tell you this, in, in a lot of ways we're dealing with ancient euphemisms, and it's hard to tell what a euphemism means thousands of years later, right? Um, I had a professor at seminary, this is gonna sound weird, but he was like, "Think about 2,000 years from now how difficult it'll be for people to tell the difference between a butt dial and a booty call." (laughs) Right? Like, those are two things that sound very similar on a piece of paper and they have very different meanings.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
And so-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's funny.
- JTJames Talarico
... you know, so like, in, in, uh, in the Hebrew Bible, you do have this, this prohibition. We're not sure exactly what it means and, and if we're taking it just literally, does that mean that we're also pro- uh, we're prohibiting same-sex relationships between women? Right? 'Cause that's not prohibited in, in that particular scripture.
- JRJoe Rogan
How is it described? So, what is the actual passage?
- JTJames Talarico
I, I mean, that's, that's the one I just gave to you about men.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is the punishment?
- JTJames Talarico
I mean, I think in, in most of these, uh, violations of the law, you know, the punishment, if it's, you know, called an abomination, this punishment can sometimes be death. And this is true of eating certain foods, of planting two crops, different crops next to each other. I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wearing two different types of cloth.
- JTJames Talarico
Sure. Sure. And again-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
A- again, I'm not a rabbi, so I, I, I hesitate to be able to speak with authority on the Jewish scriptures. But, you know, these were, this was a, a people who had, um, who had found freedom from slavery in Egypt, and they were trying to be able to set themselves apart from the, that domination that they knew in Egypt. They wanted a, a completely new world where God was in charge, not some pharaoh, not some emperor. So this was a radical community they were trying to build, and so they put rules in place to remind themselves that while it may only take a few, you know, it may take, uh, a few weeks to get out of an empire, it takes a lifetime to get the empire out of you. So we now, 2,000, 3,000 years later in terms of the Jewish scriptures, we're now reading it with modern eyes, trying to interpret what they mean and then apply it to our modern context. One, I think that's s- sloppy theology. Two, I think it's disrespectful to the Jewish people. Three, it's a misunderstanding of Christianity because the whole idea of, of Jesus' movement was that he was, um, simplifying the law, right? He simplified it into two commandments, love God and love neighbor. Those are the only two commandments that, that we Christians should keep our focus on. And Jesus regularly got into conflicts with the religious authorities. All right? Jesus was always getting in trouble with the church of his time because he is rejecting legalism and embracing the spirit of the law, which is loving your neighbor as yourself. And so in our modern context, that should mean loving, um, our gay neighbors as ourselves. Um, and so to me, you know, when I'm looking at the teachings of Jesus, I think it's very clear how we should treat those who are different, those who are left out, those who are, who are on the edges.... and I think trying to, to take the Hebrew tradition and, and interpret it for our own political benefit is, is really, there's a lot of violence to that scripture. I mean, the word homosexuality wasn't even invented until the 19th century.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JTJames Talarico
So if you see the word homosexuality in your Bible, that's an interpretation, that's a translation, um, of a ... and using a word that didn't even come around until thousands of years later.
- 22:05 – 28:25
A Christian argument for pro-choice: breath, women’s agency, and Mary’s consent
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think is the Biblical evidence to support the opinion of being pro-abortion?
- JTJames Talarico
So one, you know, uh, in Genesis, God creates life by breathing life into the first human being, which we later call Adam, that life starts when you take your first breath, and that is actually the, the, the s- the mainline position in Judaism is that that's when life starts. Then if you think about it from a Christian perspective, what ... Something interesting that Jesus does throughout his ministry is he is breaking first-century norms about women. Um, talking with women, uh, learning from women, having women lieutenants in his movement, and th- this was something that was kind of unheard of in the first century. The longest conversation Jesus has with anybody in the whole Bible is with the Samaritan woman at the well. And so this, this affirmation of, of women as full and equal people is a huge part of the Jesus movement, especially the early church. And then the last, I think, um, story I would go to is the story of Mary. Mary is probably my, my favorite figure in the Bible, um, the mother of Jesus, and you know, she is, um ... She's an oppressed peasant teenage girl living in poverty under an oppressive empire as a Jew. And she, um, she has a vision from God that she's gonna give birth to a baby who's gonna bring the powerful down from their thrones, gonna scatter the, the proud, who's gonna send the rich away empty. I mean, this, this revolutionary song that she sings, it's called the Magnificat, and it's actually been banned by certain, uh, um, authoritarian regimes because it is so radical. But I say all this in terms of, in context of abortion because before God, um, comes over Mary and, and we have the incarnation, God asks for Mary's consent, which is remarkable. I mean, go back and read this in, in, in Luke. I mean, the, the angel comes down and asks Mary if this is something she wants to do, and she says, "If it is God's will, let it be done. Let it be. Let it happen." So to me, that is a, an affirmation in one of our most central stories that creation has to be done with consent.... you cannot force someone to create. Creation is one of the most sacred acts that, that, um, that we engage in as human beings. But that has to be done with consent, it has to be done with freedom. And, and to me, that is absolutely consistent with the ministry and life and death of Jesus. And so, that's why I c- that's how I come down on that side of the issue. Again, I'm very open for my fellow Christians to disagree with that, and they may have, um, scriptural passages they point to, um, to be anti-abortion, and I think that's a debate that, that we should feel comfortable having. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be assumed that just because you're a Christian, you are anti-gay or anti-abortion because there are so many Christians out there who, who don't, uh, subscribe to either of those policy positions.
- JRJoe Rogan
So there's a lot of nuance if you're, if you're talking about abortion, right? Because you're, you're not just talking about a woman's right to choose, but you're also talking about rape and incest.
- JTJames Talarico
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? So you're, you're, you're talking about a woman's l- right to choose whether or not she carries a baby when it was not her choice to begin with.
- JTJames Talarico
That's right. And it's why I think that almost everyone in this country is pro-choice to some extent, because the polling indicates that the vast majority of Texans, the vast majority of Americans, support exceptions for rape, incest, or threats to the mother's health.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
Now-
- JRJoe Rogan
I've, I've had arguments with people that don't support that though, which is interesting. They say, the, the argument that they give is that two wrongs don't make a right. And you know, it's a crazy argument because they're, they're even talking about it with underage girls, where-
- JTJames Talarico
But at least they're consistent.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
Again, if, if you believe that a fetus is a person... Now-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, certainly has the potential to be a person, right?
- JTJames Talarico
Well, and a fetus is alive, i- in terms of just biologically alive.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
But we, we do have literally trillions of living organisms in us right now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
Um, the question is-
- JRJoe Rogan
But they don't have the potential to be a full-grown human being.
- JTJames Talarico
Absolutely. But the question is, is a fetus or is an embryo a person with full legal rights that trump the rights of a woman? 'Cause if ... Or a girl, as you mentioned, 'cause if you're, if you're a 16-year-old girl who's been raped, does that embryo or that fetus, does it have ... Uh, does its rights trump the rights of that girl?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JTJames Talarico
Or the li- And, and I just, I say no, I think most Americans say no. And to me, that exposes kind of the lack of support for fetal personhood. Again, we can have conversations about limits to abortion, all of those things, but I, I, I do think it's clear that most Americans believe that a, a woman or a girl should have, uh, the autonomy to make those decisions about their own body.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think most Americans probably would agree with that, but I think also most Americans are very uncomfortable with the concept of late-term abortions.
- JTJames Talarico
Sure. Yeah. And I would say-
- JRJoe Rogan
What is your, what are your thoughts on late-term abortions?
- JTJames Talarico
Well, I, I think if you look at the data, the late-term abortions that happen are almost exclusively to save the life of the mother. Because I mean, now you're talking about people who have picked out a name, who have bought a crib.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
People who want this baby. And so, the only time this happens is, is for, um, i- is for, you know, immediate, life-threatening medical reasons. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But there, there are exceptions to that, right? There are people that change their mind.
- JTJames Talarico
Well, and I, and I, you know, I think within Roe versus Wade, there was a legal framework for states to be able to make decisions about how you regulate abortion.
- 28:25 – 32:22
Texas abortion policy after Roe: trigger laws, extreme bans, and real-world consequences
- JRJoe Rogan
The thing about Roe versus Wade though was Roe versus Wade, the, the issue was that it was a federal thing, and that it was supposed to be up to the states to make their own decisions, right? So how did it get passed in Texas that it was, I think it's six weeks, right? Which is very early, which-
- JTJames Talarico
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
... is the point where a lot of women don't even realize that they're pregnant.
- JTJames Talarico
Well, and this was ... And that was the, the original ban that, that passed, but then Texas had a trigger law in place, which was if Roe v. Wade is overturned, which it was, then Texas would automatically ban abortion in all cases. So no longer a week, uh, uh, a week-by-week framework. It was a total ban. So there was that, that original, um, original ban that went into place, but then that was because Roe was overturned, was then, uh, replaced by a total ban. So in Texas, again, we're, we're not recognizing any of the shades of gray in this conversation. Um, it is the most extreme ban in the country, and we've seen the devastating consequences of it. We saw Texas women who were forced to wait in emergency room parking lots until they went into sepsis. Uh, I mean, we've seen, um, women banned from using public highways to travel out of state to get an abortion. I mean, that's what they were just trying to do in Lubbock was prevent women from using public highways. I mean, this is-
- JRJoe Rogan
But there was also the thing where they were trying to go after women that traveled to other states.
- JTJames Talarico
Right. Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And they ... And even if there was no evidence ... Like say if a woman travels to see her in-laws or her, her parents or something like that and then has a miscarriage.
- JTJames Talarico
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was ... That to me, was very creepy, that if this woman had traveled somewhere where abortion is legal and then lost her baby, they would then be accused even if-
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they had not had an abortion. They would be questioned and that to me, is incredibly insensitive. Peo- especially when you take into consideration some of these women might not have had abortions at all.
- JTJames Talarico
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
They might have just lost the baby, which happens quite often where there are miscarriages.
- JTJames Talarico
It's f- It's interesting you bring up miscarriages because you know, if I'm ... Again, trying to take people at their word, trying to assume the best intentions and, and hear a good faith argument on the other side of this.... i- if my concern is with the life of an embryo or the life of a fetus, the greatest threat to that life is a miscarriage. I, I mean, if your, if your concern is, is how many embryos or fetuses we're losing, the, the, um, the number that we lose to miscarriage versus the number we lose to abortion, I mean, it's dwarfed. And so I'm always, I'm always interested why the pro-life movement is not more interested in figuring out how we prevent more miscarriages. Because if, again, if your concern is, is, is that, um, embryonic life, it seems like finding ways to prevent miscarriage, which we have best practices that can do it, right? Making sure people are covered by health insurance, um, once their pregnancy starts. I mean, that is, that's a, uh, that is a huge opportunity to prevent miscarriages. You're not gonna prevent all of them, but there are things we could do to, to stop it. And so the fact that all the attention is on abortion rather than on some of these other things that maybe we could all agree on, um, to me, again, it, it, it makes me suspicious about the true motives of some of these politicians and some of these, these, um, activists who are pushing some of these bans. Uh, 'cause it doesn't seem like it's about children. It doesn't seem like it's about mothers and women and girls. It does seem like it's about control, um, and I think that's what we see across this Christian nationalist movement is controlling what you do with your own body, controlling what you read, uh, controlling what you learn, controlling where you travel. I mean, this is religion at its worst-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JTJames Talarico
... is trying to control people and what they do.
- 32:22 – 56:05
Defining Christian nationalism: power worship, Constantine’s legacy, and modern policy examples
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you define Christian nationalism? What is that to you?
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah. (sighs) So I think there's lots of different ways you could describe it. The way I define it is a little broader. Um, I say Christian nationalism is the worship of power, um, whether it's social power, economic power, political power, in the name of Christ. And, and I think it's relevant to describe it this way because it's something we've struggled with within the Christian church from the very beginning. So the first followers of Jesus didn't even call themselves Christians. They called themselves The Way because their crucified teacher had taught them a different way of being human, um, a different way of relating to other people, of, of understanding your relationship to neighbor and to God, and this transformed them. They became these, um, peculiar people is how the Bible describes it (laughs) because they didn't participate in the economy, the military, the culture. Um, they were persecuted because they turned the world upside down. Again, that's how it's described in Acts. But 300 years after that, after the Roman Empire crucified Jesus, Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of that very same empire, the same empire that crucified Jesus. So this is 300 years later, and now Christianity is the official sponsor of, of the empire, of Western civilization.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think Constantine was a Christian, like, legitimately? Or do you think that he was using it?
- JTJames Talarico
It's always hard to tell, uh, with politicians, and I say this as a politician myself.
- JRJoe Rogan
When was he baptized? When was Constantine baptized?
- JTJames Talarico
Well, he was baptized, uh, I don't know the year, but he was baptized after he had this, this, um, this vision before a, uh, decisive battle when he saw the cross and, and decided f- uh, that his soldiers would put the cross as part of their emblem, and then they won that battle, right? Um, which, you know, who knows if it was 'cause of his vision or not. But it started a trend which we've struggled with for literally, you know, f- more than 1,500 years of powerful people, you know, emperors, (laughs) billionaires, (laughs) uh, dictators, um, megachurch pastors using religion to protect their own wealth and power.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JTJames Talarico
And to me, Christian nationalism is just the latest iteration of that, whether it's the Ten Commandments bill, whether it's the bill, I don't know if you, if you read about this, uh, a bill that we passed that allows schools to replace school counselors with untrained, unsupervised religious chaplains, um, sometimes people who go online and become a chaplain within, you know, five minutes. Uh, you know, that to me, again, is an example of Christian nationalism. It's, it's using the state, it's using political power to elevate one religious tradition over all the others. It's using governmental power to dominate our neighbors instead of loving them as ourselves, which is exactly what we're called to do as Christians. Um, and then of course, most recently, we saw this bill that defunded public schools here in Texas to subsidize private Christian schools, um, and, and to me, again, that is the, uh, a bill that's right in the middle of this Christian nationalist movement to erode the separation of church and state and, um, force a certain interpretation of Christianity on everybody against their wills.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, there's this, uh, this narrative that this is a Christian nation, and this-
- JTJames Talarico
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is, uh, uh, it was founded as a Christian nation, and I think they, they call upon that-
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when they're making these decisions and talking about it in this very particular way.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah, and it, and, uh, I think no, no one would disagree that Christianity was, was influential in the founding of this country, um, and it's still influential. I mean, it's suffused throughout our culture, our politics, um, i- it is a central part of who we are as a nation. But I think it's really important to clarify that we were not founded as a Christian nation. We were founded as a nation where you are free to be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Sikh or a Buddhist or an atheist. I mean, that is the, that's the promise of America is that we are this multicultural melting pot, um, where no, no one is told how to pray, um, and no religion's elevated over the others.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's also important to point out that it wasn't in the Pledge of Allegiance until communism was an issue in this country.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah, and, and, you know, to be fair, the, the Declaration of Independence does mention a creator. And now, it doesn't necessarily mention the Christian God, but it does mention a creator. I think probably in a, in a deliberate intent to be, um...... less sectarian, um, and more open. I mean, a lot of our founders, if we're being honest, um, some of them weren't religious at all. You know, Thomas Paine. And then a lot of them weren't really what we would consider Christians today, a lot of them were deists, um, where they, you know, they saw the, they saw God as this impersonal clockmaker who created the universe and stepped away.
- JRJoe Rogan
Clockmaker.
- JTJames Talarico
And I'm not, I'm not, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's an interesting way of describing it.
- JTJames Talarico
Well, and I'm not, I'm not-
- JRJoe Rogan
Clockmakers.
- JTJames Talarico
... casting aspersion that. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where did you come up with that?
- JTJames Talarico
I think this is, this is how deists would describe it, because the universe-
- JRJoe Rogan
They would describe it as a clockmaker? Really?
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah. That the universe is ... A- and it's because they were alig- enlightenment thinkers, so they, they were enthralled by physics and, and the natural sciences, scientists.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
And they saw, uh, that the universe fit together in this perfect way, almost like a, a clock or a watch. And, and so they assumed that God was this, this watchmaker, this clockmaker, and then kind of stepped away from, from God's creation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
That is a very different view. It's not an invalid view, I don't mean to cast aspersions on that view, but it's very different than, than a lot of Christians today, who have a personal relationship with God and feel God's, um, intervention in, in our lives and in our world. And so those are, those are very different kinds of religious. And so for Christian nationalists today to say, you know, that our founders were these evangelical Protestant Christians, is, is just not quite historically accurate. Um, these were enlightenment thinkers, they had their own suspicions of religion. I mean, Thomas Jefferson created his own Bible where he took out all the miracles.
- 56:05 – 1:32:46
Meaning in an AI future: UBI, spiritual hunger, community, and the crisis of distraction
- JTJames Talarico
So, let's just talk about, I think we're, we're all either thrilled or, um, or terrified of this AI future. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
And who knows what it's gonna look like? It's probably not gonna be apocalypse and probably not gonna be utopia (laughs) it'll probably be something in the middle. But, it is going to change, um, how we understand work. It's gonna under- it's gonna change how we understand our jobs and our careers. It's gonna eliminate a lot of jobs, I would imagine. And so, this is now gonna be a spiritual question about what does it mean to be a human being? It's one that we are not equipped to answer right now because in a lot of ways, we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. And because of the problems with organized religion that we talked about earlier, we've just jettisoned the whole thing, so we're no longer having conversations about what it means to be a human being. But, to get to your question about what specifically this could look like, you know, I'm intrigued by some of the, the pilot programs on universal basic income and what they've, what they've provided. But I think what's missing in this idea is how do you, how do you provide people the support to go off and actua- and, and realize whatever dream has been festering in their brain for a long time?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JTJames Talarico
Almost like entrepreneurial grants, right? Of where we invest in someone's next big idea for an industry, for art, um, whether it is, um, community work or nonprofit work or solving a community problem. My point is, my life shows me that people are just, they have this, this creativity and this imagination that we are not tapping into, and it is... And, and so much of that is trapped in people who are either in these meaningless jobs or, um, or are not, or either gone to, you know, um, inadequate schools and therefore don't even get into a job where they could express themselves and give this gift. But I do know that it's out there and that if we tap into it, it, it could be a game-changer. So I, I don't know what this looks like, but it does seem like the disruption that's coming could be an opportunity. Again, back to out of crucifixion comes resurrection. Disruption is an opportunity, uh, to create something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I would agree. I think it's also very dependent upon the individual. And I think the best thing we can give them is inspiration. And, uh, oftentimes, the best thing that you can give them is an example of someone who also did it.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so, there's a lot of people that feel completely disenfranchised by the system that's currently in place now that I think is going to be upended by AI. So there is an opportunity for them to do something completely different. And the positive aspect of univer- universal basic income is that, first of all, I think we could both agree that if an enormous amount of jobs just go away, that probably is the only way to sustain society. You can't just have people go poor and go hungry when we, we have unfathomable wealth that's being created by these same systems.
- JTJames Talarico
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? So, universal basic income, on one hand, has a lot of hope because there, there is this potential that you now no longer... So w- we're locked into this situation where you think that you're working and you have to work because you have to take care of food and you have to take care of shelter, and that this is what most people are doing with, uh, eh, most people in this country right now are working check to check. They're, they're living paycheck to paycheck, and they're essentially getting by. And any catastrophe, medical or otherwise, will eliminate all savings instantaneously and they're doomed. And so, what they're doing is just working, giving most of their life just to sustain whatever state they're in currently. And that's very frustrating for people 'cause they don't think they ever get ahead and they don't think they're, they have any potential to get ahead. So if something comes along that takes care of that aspect of life, so if universal basic income can provide you with food and shelter, now you no longer have to think about food, you no longer have to think about shelter. Now, you have to find meaning. The problem is, for a lot of people, there are so many distractions that are unproductive, like social media, like video games, like many things that people participate in all day long, and then you add in a factor of drug addiction and partying and a lot of other fruitless li- things that people participate in. If you only were living for the l- for- first 35 years of your life just to deal with food and shelter, and now food and shelter is provided for you, now, at 35, you have to sort of reformulate your view of the world and find meaning-
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and find something, and maybe you're an atheist, so you don't-
- JTJames Talarico
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you don't find meaning in religion-
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and you don't have any desire to find meaning in religion. Okay. Well, you- what do you do? And how do you educate these people, and how do you... I, I think there's gonna be an upheaval, the likes of which we have never seen before, and there's gonna be a lot of chaos, and it's gonna be very, very uncomfortable for a lot of people. I think we're gonna d- deal with unprecedented levels of addiction, whether it is with drugs or with, uh, w- s- well, fill in the blank.
- JTJames Talarico
Soc- yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whatever, whether gambling, whatever things that people get addicted to, because I think people are gonna look for thrills. They're gonna look for something that entices them, that gives them some excitement, because they're, they're just getting a check every month.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Unfortunately, just the way humans are wired, that's not good for us. We know that from-We know that from lottery winners.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like people get an enormous chunk of money, you might win $200 million-
- JTJames Talarico
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you hit the mega bonus, whatever the hell it is, and then you're living in hell.
- JTJames Talarico
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
For whatever reason, you don't like it.
- JTJames Talarico
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
You, you, you now find yourself surrounded by people that are trying to take money from you. You feel like you're a target. You, uh, all the people that you grew up with and all the people that know, now are looking for handouts. And it gets really crazy. And most of them wind up penniless within a short period of time.
- JTJames Talarico
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's like w- how many years is it where most lottery winners wind up broke? I think it's like less than 20 years.
Episode duration: 2:36:54
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Transcript of episode _jOGPvMftb8
