Joe Rogan Experience #2355 - Mike Baker

1. 0:00 – 2:57

   South Park’s no-limits satire as a mirror for political chaos

   1. MBMike Baker0:00

      (drum roll) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) We're up. We're up. We're up. Mike Bay- Mike Baker, what a-

   4. MBMike Baker0:14

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      ... good time to talk to you.

   6. MBMike Baker0:16

      What a fine time.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      What a good time to have you in.

   8. MBMike Baker0:17

      What a fine time.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      There is so much chaos.

   10. MBMike Baker0:19

       There's... (laughs) It's so fucked up.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       There's so much madness.

   12. MBMike Baker0:21

       Oh my God.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:22

       Did you see the South Park episode?

   14. MBMike Baker0:24

       Which- which- which one? Ta-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       They did a Donald Trump one with Satan.

   16. MBMike Baker0:28

       No. No.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       It's fucking hilarious. (laughs)

   18. MBMike Baker0:31

       Oh, I gotta- I gotta watch. I love it. The show is fantastic.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       (yawning)

   20. MBMike Baker0:34

       I raised my three boys on that show w- much to my wife's horror, but it's a great show. But I haven't seen that episode.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       It... When you think... Like, Bridget Phetasy had a funny quote, like, "When you think that they have reached the bottom of- of the, uh-"

   22. MBMike Baker0:47

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       "... the highest level of not giving a fuck, they reach, uh, unseen levels." Is it... (sighs) The whole... The Epstein thing is so crazy.

   24. MBMike Baker0:56

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Like, and him saying, like, "What do you care? Why does everybody care about Epstein?" Like, wha- (laughs)

   26. MBMike Baker1:01

       (laughs) Well, that's a... Yeah, I... But it is.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       (sighs)

   28. MBMike Baker1:03

       Look, I mean, uh, uh, although w- again, going back to South Park, uh, yeah, once they did the woodland creatures episode all those years ago, you thought, "Okay, that's gotta be the- the worst they can get," but-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Which one was the woodland creatures one?

   30. MBMike Baker1:13

       Oh my God, you gotta look it up. It was... It's fantastic. It... I- I'm not gonna do it justice if I try to explain what it's about. I- I guarantee you.
2. 2:57 – 4:23

   Epstein disbelief: missing video time, autopsy red flags, and ‘nothing to see here’ messaging

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:57

      The Epstein stuff is so crazy-

   2. MBMike Baker2:58

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      ... because when Kash Patel was on here and he was like, "There's no... There's nothing," and I was like, "What are you talking..." Uh-

   4. MBMike Baker3:05

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:06

      I didn't even know what to say. My thought was... And people are like, "Why didn't you push back more?" My thought was like, "I'm just gonna put this out there and let the internet do its work," 'cause there's nothing I can-

   6. MBMike Baker3:13

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:13

      The guy's saying there's no f- tapes, there's no video. That doesn't make any sense. Everyone knows it doesn't make any sense. Let's just... And then he didn't know about the Mi- the Michael Baden stuff-

   8. MBMike Baker3:24

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:24

      ... the autopsy stuff where it showed that he had three broken bones in his neck, which never happens-

   10. MBMike Baker3:29

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       ... when you hang yourself.

   12. MBMike Baker3:30

       Yep.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       Even when you, like, leap from somewhere with a rope around your neck and it snaps your neck-

   14. MBMike Baker3:37

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       ... you never have three broken bones.

   16. MBMike Baker3:38

       And he's in a prison cell. He's not-

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:40

       Yeah.

   18. MBMike Baker3:40

       ... launching himself off the first floor balcony.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       The whole thing was nuts.

   20. MBMike Baker3:43

       Um, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:43

       And then they were li- he's like, "Well, we have a film. We're gonna release that film." And the film has a fucking minute missing from it.

   22. MBMike Baker3:48

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       Like, do you think we're babies? Like, what is this?

   24. MBMike Baker3:51

       Plus, also, you got... You- you got people ma- including Dan Bongino, right, making bank for a couple of years talking about how awful it is.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:58

       Yeah.

   26. MBMike Baker3:58

       And, "We gotta get this shit," and, "This is..." "This..." "Huge conspiracy." And- and then you release a two-day... You know, a two-page memo that says, "Yeah, there's nothing to see here."

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       Yeah.

   28. MBMike Baker4:05

       You know?

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       'Cause you're walking by your bedroom window and you see-

   30. MBMike Baker4:07

       Yeah.
3. 4:23 – 6:00

   Ghislaine Maxwell interview: DOJ’s late involvement and the politics of file releases

   1. MBMike Baker4:23

      Yeah. No, it... But, you know, and they're actually doing it, right as we- as we speak, um... And I find this fascinating, is that the, uh, the Assistant Attorney General, Todd Blanche, is down in Florida for an interview with Ghislaine Maxwell, right? She's serving t- 20 years in- in a Florida prison for sex trafficking, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:41

      To who, though?

   3. MBMike Baker4:42

      Um, f- what's that?

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:43

      To who?

   5. MBMike Baker4:45

      Well, sh- he's down there to interview her, but-

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:46

      Right, but I'm saying, she's- she's sex traffic to who?

   7. MBMike Baker4:49

      Oh, she was- well, she was a- a co-conspirator of Epstein's, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:52

      But don't you have to have a person-

   9. MBMike Baker4:54

      But ex- yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:54

       ... who you're sex trafficking to in order-

   11. MBMike Baker4:56

       Exactly, and they talked about the victims somewhat during her trial. It was very... I mean, it was- it was a very difficult trial in the sense of, you know, they're- they're trying to, uh, protect certain victims and- and others were coming forward. But, you know, the- my surprise was nobody from DOJ has ever... According to her legal team, nobody has ever interviewed her from DOJ.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:18

       (laughs)

   13. MBMike Baker5:18

       Right? So, Department of Justice. So, this is the first time-

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       (laughs)

   15. MBMike Baker5:21

       ... the Department of Justice. You're telling me-

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:22

       Uh...

   17. MBMike Baker5:22

       And meanwhile up on Capitol Hill, you've got Democrats like Adam Schiff and others going, "We have got to release these fucking files." They had four years under the previous administration, right?

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:30

       Yeah.

   19. MBMike Baker5:30

       Look, everybody's fucked in this- in this situation, but they had all that time to do whatever they wanted to do and nobody, up until this point apparently, has talked to her. Now, you know, some folks on the legal side are saying, "Well, look, if she had anything interesting to say, she would've said it during the course of her trial," right? To save herself or to cut a deal.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:47

       No.

   21. MBMike Baker5:48

       Uh, but now her-

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:48

       I don't think so.

   23. MBMike Baker5:49

       I don't... Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:50

       'Cause they'll kill her.

   25. MBMike Baker5:50

       Yeah. Well-

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:51

       The smartest thing for her to do-

   27. MBMike Baker5:52

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:52

       ... is to keep her fucking mouth shut, which is what she did.

   29. MBMike Baker5:54

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       They put her in a cushy prison where she could do yoga.
4. 6:00 – 15:07

   Media hypocrisy spotlight: The Atlantic/NPR, bias claims, and ‘truth is a distraction’

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:00

      Here- here's one of my favorite ones.

   2. MBMike Baker6:01

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:01

      I'm gonna- I'm gonna send you this, Jamie, 'cause this... Somebody tweeted this and it's just so perfect. And it's... It just shows you how crazy this- this whole thing has been, like, from the very beginning. This is, uh... Someone tweeted this, from The Atlantic.And this is what, what it, what's funny about this, um... Check this out, Jamie. (laughs) So i- it's these fucking people. It's like, they all knew her, they all knew him.

   4. MBMike Baker6:30

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:30

      So many people knew him and knew her and they're all pretending that they didn't-

   6. MBMike Baker6:35

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:35

      ... that know one knew. Check this out. This is The Atlantic, says... (laughs)

   8. MBMike Baker6:40

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:40

      Scroll, go up, Baker, so we can see it, so we can see the quote below it, below it.

   10. MBMike Baker6:44

       I'm trying, I'm trying. I zoomed.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       No, go back.

   12. MBMike Baker6:47

       No, I know I zoomed it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:48

       There we go. I can't read it.

   14. MBMike Baker6:51

       There you go.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       There it goes. Uh, "This is what The Atlantic p- posts. If the Epstein scandal teaches us anything, it's that America needs a dedicated and decently funded group of people whose job it is not to just ask questions, but to find answers." And then this guy, Sean Davis, posts, "The woman on the right is Ghislaine Maxwell. She trafficked children for Jeffrey Epstein. The woman on the left owns your magazine."

   16. MBMike Baker7:16

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:18

       This is so fucking wild-

   18. MBMike Baker7:21

       Yeah. Yeah. Everybody-

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:21

       ... just that alone-

   20. MBMike Baker7:23

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:23

       ... is so wild that they would have the balls to post that.

   22. MBMike Baker7:26

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       "We need dedicated journalists-

   24. MBMike Baker7:29

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:29

       ... not just people asking questions," which is like, for sure, an attack on podcasts.

   26. MBMike Baker7:35

       Well-

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:35

       Like, listen, you guys didn't do shit.

   28. MBMike Baker7:39

       Yeah. Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan7:39

       You didn't do shit. So just asking que- just the fact that we're just asking questions along with that, or is this a knock on the defunding of PBS, which is essentially a propaganda network for the Democratic Party?

   30. MBMike Baker7:52

       Yeah. Yeah, which is now being apparently, we'll see if that happens, but apparently being defunded. But yeah, look, everybody's, everybody's worried now, right? N- uh, at first it was like, okay, again, I go back a handful of years, nobody was, was pushing for this, right? Because you got people from all sides probably on whatever that list looks like, whatever that Epstein file looks like. Whoever was involved, you got people from all sides of the spectrum here going on. And so everybody's worried, so it looked like, all right, you know, there's kind of this bizarre bipartisan moment where we're not gonna push for this really. We're not gonna make a big effort here. We're not sending anybody from DOJ. The Dems aren't, during the Biden administration, calling for the release of the files. Now all of a sudden they smell, you know, blood in the water and a particular, you know, political motivation here, so let's get these files out and, you know, nobody's gonna look good from this. But I, again, I, I, I would caution some, you know, uh, that just because a f- a name might be in a file, no matter whose it is, right, doesn't necessarily mean there's nefarious activity. It could be like any, any police file, right, that says, okay, the individual stopped at this particular location and this person was there. Doesn't mean they're connected to something awful. It w- weren't fucking underage girls. Maybe they were if they're in the file, right?
5. 15:07 – 19:13

   Why Washington investigations ‘go to die’—and how messaging failures amplify distrust

   1. MBMike Baker15:07

      I will say that the, the Epstein, um, the Epstein situation is gonna be so disappointing to so many people now. Because, um, I have this theory that nothing ever gets done in Washington DC, right? Investigations go to die there. Nothing ever happens. There's never any real consequences of any nature. And we got all sorts of things happening right now, right? So, so the Epstein case is just one of them. But right now, you've got, you've got the Dems focused on Epstein because, you know, again, they see... This is just... A good opportunity here to go after Trump, regardless of who else is in the files, right? And, and the Dems I think were worried for quite some time and didn't pursue it because, you know, years back they were thinking, "Okay, Clinton's going to be embarrassed. We don't want that."

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:50

      Right.

   3. MBMike Baker15:51

      So again, my point would be just release everything. I don't understand how, if you just look at the way that they handled this logistically, whoever thought... Because the mob wants to eat, right? And they've been throwing red meat to the mob about Epstein files now for, for years.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:07

      It's part of how they got elected.

   5. MBMike Baker16:08

      Right. And so whoever in their communications group or in their strategic thinking arena in the administration thought, you know, that, "We can get away with just saying there's nothing to see here," they should be fired, right? Because there's no way you can satisfy this, this mob. And now the mob is oddly bipartisan because it's got the Dems and it's got, you know, part of the base of, of Trump in there.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:29

      Yeah.

   7. MBMike Baker16:30

      And they're all, you know, screaming to have this... Goddamn it, just release this shit. Otherwise, this is going be around like Martin Luther King and John F. Kennedy and, you know...

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:38

      Well, that's what's crazy. They did release more Martin Luther King document-

   9. MBMike Baker16:41

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       ... documents.

   11. MBMike Baker16:42

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       Which is really crazy. Like, why are you holding secrets about the murder of one of the most beloved historical figures-

   13. MBMike Baker16:51

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       ... of all time-

   15. MBMike Baker16:52

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       ... from 1968?

   17. MBMike Baker16:55

       Part of that is a family request.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       And you just released it? Oh.

   19. MBMike Baker16:57

       Yeah, part of that's a family request. The family has asked, you know, in the past, on a number of occasions, they, they really don't want some of this... Because some of it... Look, some of it's salacious about, you know, Martin Luther K- Which doesn't take away from everything that he did, right?

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:10

       Right.

   21. MBMike Baker17:10

       As a, as a leader of a cause and a movement, uh, but some of it is, you know, reportedly-

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       Extramarital affairs.

   23. MBMike Baker17:16

       Yes, yes.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:16

       And things along those lines.

   25. MBMike Baker17:17

       So, there's been some push to be concerned about that. But yeah, now do the Epstein files, um...

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       Well, they'll do it-

   27. MBMike Baker17:22

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:22

       ... in the same amount of time-

   29. MBMike Baker17:24

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:24

       ... 56 years from now. (laughs)
6. 19:13 – 27:36

   Hidden cameras and leverage: Epstein as an intelligence magnet (and a Moscow embassy cautionary tale)

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:13

      Well, that was the thing about that house, that house they had in New York City, which is, by the way, for sale. And-

   2. MBMike Baker19:18

      Oh, really?

   3. JRJoe Rogan19:18

      Yeah, nobody wants to buy it.

   4. MBMike Baker19:19

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:20

      Like, you wanna buy Epstein's house?

   6. MBMike Baker19:21

      Do the cameras convey, I wonder? Yeah, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:22

      But this is the thing. I mean, you gotta gut the walls.

   8. MBMike Baker19:25

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:25

      How are you gonna know what the fuck is in there?

   10. MBMike Baker19:27

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:27

       Imagine you're walking around your house naked and you think that the CIA has got... or your, your own, fucking, your organization.

   12. MBMike Baker19:33

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:33

       The, whoever it is, Mossad-

   14. MBMike Baker19:34

       To be fair, the agency's got a lot of hours of videotape of me walking around naked.

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:37

       I'm sure.

   16. MBMike Baker19:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       But Mossad, whoever it is that was involved in this intelligence gathering, I mean, I'm just guessing.

   18. MBMike Baker19:43

       Yeah. Right, right, right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:43

       I have no idea.

   20. MBMike Baker19:44

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:44

       But there's fucking pinhole cameras all over that house.

   22. MBMike Baker19:47

       Yeah. Yeah, we, you have, you have to start-

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:48

       Maybe they took them down.

   24. MBMike Baker19:49

       ... from that perception, right? Because again, they, they... if, if anything else, then you're just being naive if you think, "No, there's nothing." Again... goddamn it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:55

       You gotta take it down to the bare beams.

   26. MBMike Baker19:58

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:59

       You gotta strip the wall board off. You gotta fucking... every baseboard, you gotta pull everything.

   28. MBMike Baker20:04

       It's like, it's like we had a-

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:05

       Who fucking knows what's in that house.

   30. MBMike Baker20:06

       We had a, we had a, a situation in Moscow one time where we were building, uh... it was the new embassy, the US Embassy in Moscow, right? And (laughs) for some reason, you know, part of the deal was to allow Russian contractors to work on the construction of this.
7. 27:36 – 37:05

   Blackmail tradecraft: why some services use it—and why it often backfires

   1. MBMike Baker27:36

      Yeah. And, and I tell you, the Russians love nothing better than ... You know, the, the truth, uh ... (sighs) The reality is it, in terms of recruiting an asset, recruiting an asset by using blackmail is, is, is tough, right? You gotta, you gotta ... That window starts closing immediately, right? In terms of their operational usefulness, right? Because there, there's a lot of, there's a lot of issues there, right? You're, you're, you're, you're blackmailing somebody for their cooperation. At some point, that's gonna go south on ya, right? Uh, it's not like you've recruited somebody for ideological reasons, right? Or-

   2. JRJoe Rogan28:10

      Right.

   3. MBMike Baker28:10

      ... even something as, as straightforward as, like, they need the money because their kid's sick, or whatever it may be. So blackmail's a ... But having said that, look, the, the, the Russians in particular love that, right? Um, and, um, you know, Ch- Chinese intel, they'll do whatever works f- from their perspective. Um, you know, the agency ... Again, people are gonna say, "That's bullshit." The agency tries ... They, they, they, they ... The blackmail is never really ever on the table as an option, because it always leads to a problem. Uh, uh, and, and sometimes those problems can be very, very bad in terms of your-

   4. JRJoe Rogan28:44

      In, uh, in what way? Uh, what do you mean about this?

   5. MBMike Baker28:45

      Well, you know the asset will turn on you, right? And the next thing you know, um, you know, you've got a, uh, an agent working now, a double agent working for the other side, right? Because they're just, they're so fucked over by the fact that they've been blackmailed and at some point, they lose their shit and they decide to, to roll for the other side they didn't work against.

   6. JRJoe Rogan29:02

      But can't you, like, constantly be monitoring them-

   7. MBMike Baker29:04

      (coughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan29:04

      ... and looking at their phone and all?

   9. MBMike Baker29:05

      There's only so much ... No, not really. There's only so much you can do, right? In terms of, um, maintaining ... Particularly with a, uh, with a, with a, uh, a hard target. Particularly with a, uh, an asset who's in a difficult or challenging environment, you know, for instance, and you've got limited access to them, whatever it may be. So you're really relying on, on clandestine communications, you don't have a lot of face-to-face meetings. Um, and at some point, you never know when things are heading south, right? And then the next thing you know ... Look, you know, that ... So, the- it's, that's a, that's the operational reason for trying to avoid blackmail, right? Um, has it ever been done? Well, sure, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying it hasn't been done.

   10. JRJoe Rogan29:39

       Of course.

   11. MBMike Baker29:40

       But some services go to it much quicker than others do. Yeah, so-

   12. JRJoe Rogan29:44

       And which services are those?

   13. MBMike Baker29:45

       And I would ... Well, again, the Russians, you know, are, are primary users of, of something like that. They don't do-

   14. JRJoe Rogan29:49

       The Israelis?

   15. MBMike Baker29:49

       'Cause they, they've got a shotgun approach. Yeah. Israelis have, have been known to do that in the honeypot operations that they'll do-

   16. JRJoe Rogan29:54

       Yeah.

   17. MBMike Baker29:54

       ... and the, and other things. But the Russians throw a lot of shit at the wall and see what sticks, right? It's a very much a, uh, a shotgun approach, right? And ...... you know, honestly, sometimes, you know, that c- that can work, right?

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:05

       Wasn't that kind of, if you thought about this island, if you're bringing award-winning scientists, f- like, pr- famous people, politicians, world leaders all to one place, you're basically throwing-

   19. MBMike Baker30:18

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:18

       ... as much shit against the wall as you can.

   21. MBMike Baker30:20

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:20

       And then you have all this stuff on all these different people and they know it. And so then you just kind of like... Wasn't there, like, some CEO that had to step down because he wound up giving Epstein... It was found out that he gave Epstein, like, $150 million that they couldn't explain why?

   23. MBMike Baker30:35

       Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       Wasn't that- wasn't that the case, Jamie?

   25. YJYoung Jamie30:37

       That's right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:38

       So it's one of those things where there's obviously value in having all these people on your side.

   27. MBMike Baker30:45

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       But when you do get all this information on these people, like, what are they trying to accomplish with it? This is the question. Are they trying to get support for... Uh.

   29. MBMike Baker30:55

       Oh, yeah. Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan30:55

       "Apollo CEO to step down after firm finds more payments to Jeffrey Epstein: $158 million." He paid the convicted sex offender $158 million. (laughs)
8. 37:05 – 39:19

   Inside-agency attitudes: Epstein vs Tulsi Gabbard’s document release and ‘eroding trust’

   1. JRJoe Rogan37:05

      Like, with a, with a thing like this, what is the general feeling about people that you talk to that are still in the agency, or people that are still involved in the government? Like, how are they feeling about this? 'Cause like, the general public is outraged, right?

   2. MBMike Baker37:18

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan37:18

      Do the people inside, are they frustrated, like people that wanted this stuff to expose, to be exposed?

   4. MBMike Baker37:24

      Yeah, you know, it's funny because with the agency, it's not like the bureau. The agency, uh, I think most people honestly don't really probably give a shit about the Epstein files. They're more, they're more concerned now about this release from Tulsi Gabbard and the talk about, you know, manipulating intelligence, you know, for the 2016 election-

   5. JRJoe Rogan37:43

      Right.

   6. MBMike Baker37:44

      ... and Russian collusion and all of that. That speaks more to the agency than, than the Epstein files does, just from a, you know, whose responsibility is whose, right? This whole Epstein thing is a DOJ, FBI issue. Um, I think if they're concerned about it, it's because of how it erodes trust in organizations, institutions, right? And, and that's happened a, uh, a lot. So, you know, I, it... There's a lot of, a lot of good people. I know, again, every time I talk about the agency, people are like, "Fuck you, you're such a shill." But there's a lot of good people doing very difficult work for the agency, right?

   7. JRJoe Rogan38:16

      I believe that. I believe that.

   8. MBMike Baker38:18

      And, and so, you know, I think, if anything, they, they take it personally when people think, "Oh, fuck the CIA. You gotta, you gotta burn it down and start over again." You know, like they said with the FBI as well.

   9. JRJoe Rogan38:28

      I've talked about that many times.

   10. MBMike Baker38:29

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan38:29

       Like, "You don't know what the fuck is going on in the world. The world is filled with chaos."

   12. MBMike Baker38:32

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan38:33

       Like, you need people that are paying attention to that shit, and they should be on your side.

   14. MBMike Baker38:36

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:36

       They should be on the side of the American people, paying attention to threats. I- if you think that that's, that not paying attention at all is gonna do you any good when there's all these countries out there that are fucking plotting constantly, you're crazy.

   16. MBMike Baker38:49

       Yeah, no.

   17. JRJoe Rogan38:49

       You c- this is a... You're living in a utopia. You're living in a fake world. The real world is filled with madness.

   18. MBMike Baker38:55

       Yeah, it is.

   19. JRJoe Rogan38:56

       You gotta have people paying attention to it.

   20. MBMike Baker38:57

       Yeah. And I think... So I think that, you know, to answer that, that question, I think they're more, they're more focused on or interested in or, you know, looking at this issue of, you know... And, and it's, it's surfaced again, right at the same time as the Epstein files, right? Now, it's like sucking all the oxygen out of the room for the past couple of days. Tulsi Gabbard comes out and says, "I'm releasing these documents." She releases these documents. It's-

9. 39:19 – 53:59

   Russia ‘meddling’ vs ‘collusion’: what the new document fight is really about

   1. JRJoe Rogan39:19

      What do you think about all that? Like, so this is the accusation. They're, they're, they're throwing around the word treason.

   2. MBMike Baker39:25

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan39:26

      They're saying that Obama knew that Russia did not meddle in the election, did not have any impact in the election, but yet promoted this idea. And then there's been some incredible clips of all these different news reporters, CNN and MSNBC just saying over and over and over again, "Clear evidence of Russian collusion." And-

   4. MBMike Baker39:46

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan39:47

      And-

   6. MBMike Baker39:47

      And you had Hillary Clinton saying, you know, is, is, uh, you know, an air of illegitimacy around Trump's, you know, victory-

   7. JRJoe Rogan39:52

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MBMike Baker39:52

      ... you know, from 2016, because of this. I mean, she was very clear about it, um, and-

   9. JRJoe Rogan39:57

      But they're also saying-

   10. MBMike Baker39:57

       ... as were many others, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan39:58

       ... the noose is tightening on Trump.

   12. MBMike Baker40:00

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan40:00

       It's all gonna come out. He's an agent of Russia.

   14. MBMike Baker40:03

       Yeah, Adam Schiff coming out on camera numerous times saying, "You know, I can't tell you what I've seen, but I've seen things. There's a lot more than circumstantial evidence about this collusion." So yeah, they... But again, the, it's, it's much more comp- It's always the same thing. It's much more complex than what folks tend to hear just in like a two and a half or three-minute news segment, right? So the Democrats want you to think there's nothing to see here in these documents. How could you possibly spend time doing this? You're just trying to distract from the, the Epstein files. Um, and the Republicans are saying Obama committed treason, right? The reality is, as it oftentimes is, is somewhere in that middle, right? There, there, there's a lot of conflating of, of issues here. So, nobody is questioning, neither Republicans or Democrats, nobody's questioning that the Russians meddled in the election, just like they did in the previous one, just like they did in this last one, just like... There always... They've been meddling since World War II, right? Since the end of the, of World War II. They've, they've always had an interest in influencing US politics.

   15. JRJoe Rogan41:08

       Now, when you say meddle, do you mean like social media bots? Do you mean like-

   16. MBMike Baker41:14

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan41:14

       ... influencing politicians? Like, what do you mean by meddle?

   18. MBMike Baker41:16

       Yeah, well, I mean, you know, in the early days, what were they doing? In the early days, they would, uh, pay off trade union representatives, right? To, to push a certain line, to, you know, to push for a softer tone, much like the Chinese do now, push for a softer tone against the Soviet Union, right? Or, um, in, in, during World War II, to push for isolationism, keep the US out of the war, right? Before the Nazis turned on the Soviet Union and then they tended to need us. Um, or they would pay journalists to write articles pushing a particular point of view. Um, and so there were those things. Now, social media meddling is a lot easier, right? It's a lot cheaper.

   19. JRJoe Rogan41:55

       For sure, they do that.

   20. MBMike Baker41:56

       Yeah, for sure they do that, and-

   21. JRJoe Rogan41:58

       And for sure they did that in 2016.

   22. MBMike Baker42:00

       Yeah, absolutely. And, and nobody's questioning that, right? What's happening is that...... the, eh, once again, there's a bit of a messaging problem from the Trump administration. Trump administration, at the end of the day, is saying, (laughs) "What was bullshit was this Russia collusion angle," right? Was the idea that, you know, (stammers) this is complicated to, to explain, and I'm not doing a very good job of it, but they're saying, "Yes, there was meddling, but you pushed a story..." Meaning Brennan and Comey and, you know, all the others that were involved in this, and now going up to the top with Obama, saying, "You took what was, um, uh, a, uh, intel community assessment, um, an ICA is, uh, 'cause everything has an acronym, um, that said there was no indication of, of, uh, of, uh, Russian efforts to push or influence in a particular direction, the election, right? And most of that an- initial reporting was on, um, electure- uh, election infrastructure. So, there was a, a fairly, you know, significant bit there that said, "The Russians di- weren't able to hack into election machines and actually alter vote counts," right? So, they said, "We have seen no evidence of that," right? And (sighs) so you could argue that, in part, the, the, the Trump administration is having a hard time explaining, much like I am, that the problem here wasn't that there was, th- th- anybody saying there's no meddling. There's meddling. They're just saying that you, at a certain point, around about December 9th I think it was, you had a meeting where Obama was sitting in there with Comey and Andrew McCabe and, and a variety of others, and the president himself requested a different intelligence community assessment, which is a little unusual for a president to say, "I'd like you to do a, an ICA on a particular thing," which is what he did.

   23. JRJoe Rogan43:51

       Could you elaborate on that? Like, wha- so, they were telling him what?

   24. MBMike Baker43:54

       Well, they were, they were telling him, "We don't see, um, that Russian meddling impacted the election," basically. The Dems are saying, "Well, that's just about the electronic infrastructure, about the voting machines," right? In reality, the ICA was also s- uh, th- uh, that, that, that instruction, the PDB, the President's Daily Brief and, and the, the, the, the writing that had been done, the analysis that had been done up to that point was saying, uh, "We haven't seen anything that the Russian meddling influenced the outcome of the election." Well, then, shortly, and then they, they squashed that particular piece, right? They said, "Let's, let's shelve that," and that's what a lot of the emails that Tulsi Gabbard, um, released show, right? They said, like, th- all this agonizing. It's amazing to me that shit gets done in the government when you read these emails going back and forth between James Clapper at the DNI and, and other places.

   25. JRJoe Rogan44:42

       Yeah, you sent me some of that stuff-

   26. MBMike Baker44:43

       Yeah, exactly.

   27. JRJoe Rogan44:44

       ... to go through.

   28. MBMike Baker44:44

       Yeah, the analysts and others, and they're all saying, "Okay, well, well, what kind of tone do we give it? What do we say about this?" And you can also see in there that they're saying, um, "We don't think the Steele dossier is credible." You know, the two senior Russian analysts, right, at the agency were telling John Brennan at the time, "You, if you put the dossier in there as a piece of information into this assessment, you're compromising the credibility of the whole thing because we don't believe it," right? And this is December, right? And Brennan instructed, and it's in writing, instructed them to go ahead and do it, right? Because it basically, he was, he liked the narrative, right? Of the Steele dossier.

   29. JRJoe Rogan45:23

       Right.

   30. MBMike Baker45:24

       And so he chose that over, um, the analytical, um, process, right? Over the discipline that you need to corroborate information that's going to go to a high-level, um, intel assessment. So, uh, you know, if anybody's in, in the crosshairs right now, it's probably John Brennan, right? In terms of, because he went up on, on Capitol Hill at some point and, and, and said that, you know, the Steele dossier didn't form an important point of, or, you know, wasn't in the, the document, wasn't in the ICA. The ICA is now out there and, and sure enough, it was not only in the annex, it was in the body of the report, which gives it much more credibility. So, yeah, so he, uh, you know, I, I'm not a lawyer but, uh, you know, I think he should be concerned a little bit about where that might go. But Obama reportedly, and it's in email traffic, you know, requested, right, a different ICA. And so shortly thereafter, they produced a report-
10. 53:59 – 1:01:05

    Biden decline, Fifth Amendment pleas, cancer timeline, and the autopen pardon questions

    1. MBMike Baker53:59

       Yeah, they didn't know what else to do, and, and, and ... By the way (laughs) , there's so much going on right now. Um, today, speaking of Kamala and, and now, now we're gonna speak about Biden, but today, uh-... was his name, the chief of staff, uh, the former chief of staff for Biden, I think he was only there for a couple of years, uh, Ron Klain was up on Capitol Hill to talk because they're holding these interviews up on Capitol Hill to try to figure out what the hell was going on, right? What, at what point did people decide they're gonna cover up the mental condition of Joe Biden? And that's another ... Look, I mean, uh, yeah-

    2. JRJoe Rogan54:33

       And then they're all pleading the Fifth?

    3. MBMike Baker54:34

       They're all pleading the Fifth. Kevin O'Connor, his, uh, the White House doctor, um, plead the Fifth. Um, senior advisor to Jill Biden, uh, what's his name? Bernal, Andrew Bernal, plead the Fifth, right? Um, you know, and Ron Klain apparently stayed up there for a couple of hours talking, right? But, you know, again, I don't think ... He wasn't there for the last couple of years of the administration I think, but he was there for the debate prep, right? And he's come out publicly and said, "I was shocked at his condition." So, you know, people-

    4. JRJoe Rogan55:03

       I think they set him up for failure in that debate.

    5. MBMike Baker55:07

       Hm.

    6. JRJoe Rogan55:07

       Why ... First of all, why are they having a debate that late? Why would they agree to a debate at 9:00 PM-

    7. MBMike Baker55:13

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan55:13

       ... when you got a guy who's really old-

    9. MBMike Baker55:15

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan55:15

        ... and kind of broken down? Why would you do that?

    11. MBMike Baker55:18

        Television timing? Who knows? Uh, yeah. Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan55:20

        And it seems like ... Didn't someone blame it on him being on Ambien?

    13. MBMike Baker55:25

        Yeah. Hunter did.

    14. JRJoe Rogan55:26

        Yeah.

    15. MBMike Baker55:26

        Hunter did.

    16. JRJoe Rogan55:26

        Hunter did.

    17. MBMike Baker55:27

        That fantastic interview that Hunter just did with, um-

    18. JRJoe Rogan55:29

        Yeah.

    19. MBMike Baker55:30

        I forget his name. Andrew Callaghan or something like that. Um, yeah. He, he referenced ... Now he's walking it back, saying, "I ... You know, I wasn't meaning that he was on Ambien during the debate. I'm just saying, you know, he was ... You know, they had him on Ambien because of his travel schedule." The guy was, the guy was at Camp David and, and resting in Delaware for 10 days prior to the debate, so yeah. I don't know.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:52

        Jesus. What a mess. I think they set him up. I think they wanted him out, and this is the way to do it. Get him in the debate, don't give him his medicine.

    21. MBMike Baker56:01

        (coughs) Excuse me.

    22. JRJoe Rogan56:02

        Don't give him the proper medication to keep him up and peppy, and l- let him out there all confused, and apparently he had a cold at the time too, so it was ...

    23. MBMike Baker56:09

        But if you ... If, if they were gonna do that, wouldn't you think that they would, um ... I don't know, um, have a better plan? A plan B?

    24. JRJoe Rogan56:18

        No, they didn't have a plan, and I think-

    25. MBMike Baker56:20

        (coughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan56:20

        ... the Biden administration, the people didn't want him to step down. There's people-

    27. MBMike Baker56:25

        Oh, okay.

    28. JRJoe Rogan56:25

        ... inside the organization that didn't want him to step down, particularly, supposedly, Jill. Jill did not want him to step down. But then there's the cancer thing. Like, how do they not know-

    29. MBMike Baker56:36

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan56:36

        ... that he has cancer? Well they have to know.
11. 1:01:05 – 1:25:22

    Border enforcement, political incentives, and the rise of socialist messaging in NYC

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       The closing of the border is clearly a good thing.

    2. MBMike Baker1:01:07

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       That was-

    4. MBMike Baker1:01:08

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

       ... fucking scary and dangerous.

    6. MBMike Baker1:01:10

       Yeah, no, from, from ... Look, from a, from a policy perspective ... Look, the, the other day, they had, um, like nine crossings, right? Nine, right, compared to maybe 10,000, 11,000, 12,000 a day in, in-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       Right.

    8. MBMike Baker1:01:23

       ... the previous administration. Um, so that, that's a, that's a huge win, and that's what they should be talking about. And they should be talking about, um, the, the trade deals, right? They got a good trade deal with Japan. They got a good trade deal with Indonesia. They got a good trade deal with Vietnam. They, you know, signed one with the UK. They're getting ready for the European Union. Um, there's things that they should be talking about and instead, once again, we're fucking consumed with what we've been discussing, Epstein and the Intel manipulation. You know, I mean, you think of Biden's condition, and (laughs) it's ... God.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

       Obama and treason and-

    10. MBMike Baker1:01:55

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:55

        Yeah.

    12. MBMike Baker1:01:55

        Yeah, so it's, it's really ... It's, it's disappointing, but, you know, I'd ... Again, I don't know how ... You know, it, it, it ... This is a, it, it ... I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than the fact (laughs) that it's, it- it- it's very depressing if you think about, you know, where our focus is right now, right? There's a lot of flashpoints around the world, a lot of real serious crises, right? And, and, and threats to national security and, and concerns. And, you know, the, the, the White House can't seem to, you know, get a focus, right? On, on things, and ... But yeah, the, the border thing is a, is a great win. That's a, that's a very ... From a, uh, national security issue, that's a terrific win.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:02:36

        Yeah, the, the fact that it was open for so long is so insane to think that anybody would think that would be a good idea, unless you wanted chaos.

    14. MBMike Baker1:02:46

        Yeah. Y- that, that is always discussed as, like, was it intentional? I don't see how it's not intentional, right? I mean, that's ... 'Cause y- we can see now after six months (laughs) of the, the, the second Trump administration, that you can fix the problem, right?

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:02:59

        Yeah, they could've fixed it instantly.

    16. MBMike Baker1:03:00

        It's very fixable. They could've done it, and they, and they chose not to, so y- you know. Clearly there, there's a lot of people in that, in the D- Dem party, in the Democratic Party that, you know, are fans of or believe in open borders. Um-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:03:13

        But there's also the moving of the people to swing states and the fact that it changes the number of Congressional seats regardless of whether or not someone's there legally or illegally.

    18. MBMike Baker1:03:23

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:03:23

        Once they do a census on how many people live there, it raises the number of Congressional seats that's available.

    20. MBMike Baker1:03:29

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:03:29

        Which is crazy.

    22. MBMike Baker1:03:30

        Well, yeah. It- it-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:03:32

        All the ... All that's so wild, that it's so transparent.

    24. MBMike Baker1:03:35

        I ... Yeah, I mean, look at, look at, you know, look at Europe. I, I know that's kind of a ... You know, people talk about this, but look at France, look at the UK. I mean, e- though, you know, much smaller environments, and you can see what happens when you have massive migration, right? And it's ... And look, hey, I'm, I'm not, I'm not against immigration. I'm just saying it should be legal. You should know who's coming across your border.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:03:55

        Yeah.

    26. MBMike Baker1:03:55

        You should have security. Um, you can't pay for everybody, right? I mean, so y- opening up your borders and saying, "Come on in, and we're gonna provide you with, with, you know, (laughs) whatever Mamdani in New York is providing, new ... free grocery stores and free bus and free childcare, and everything's gonna be free." Um-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:04:14

        And they're gonna tax businesses.

    28. MBMike Baker1:04:15

        They're gonna, he said they're gonna tax-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:04:16

        That's how they're gonna pay for it.

    30. MBMike Baker1:04:16

        That's what he said. He said, "And if you're wondering how I'm gonna pay for this, I'm gonna tax the rich," right? You think, like, "Oh my God."

Episode duration: 2:29:46