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Joe Rogan Experience #2385 - Rick Strassman

Rick Strassman, MD, is a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. He is the author of several books, the most recent of which is 2024's "My Altered States: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Trauma, Psychedelics, and Spiritual Growth." https://www.rickstrassman.com Buy 1 Get 1 Free Trucker Hat with code ROGAN at https://happydad.com Visit https://WildPastures.com/rogan today to get 20% off for life, plus $15 off your first box.

Rick StrassmanguestJoe RoganhostGuest (unidentified third person, likely producer/assistant)guest
Sep 26, 20253h 9mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:05

    DMT visions vs. biblical prophecy: Ezekiel, the Zohar, and “UAP” interpretations

    1. RS

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

    3. RS

      So this is a book I wrote 11 years ago.

    4. JR

      Oh, okay.

    5. RS

      The DMT and the Zohar Prophecy.

    6. JR

      I haven't gotten that one before.

    7. RS

      Yeah. It compares ... Well, let's see, are we gonna ...

    8. JR

      Yeah, just get a little closer to the mic. We're up.

    9. RS

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      We're rolling.

    11. RS

      Yeah, it compares the, it compares the DMT state to the state of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible.

    12. JR

      Do you think they're the same thing?

    13. RS

      Well, the phenomenology is pretty similar. Like, if you read chapter one of Ezekiel, there's, um, flames and there's angels and there's wings and there's eyes on the back of wings.

    14. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RS

      And there's roaring sound and, uh, blue ice above the person, he flies through space.

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RS

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. RS

      Quite, quite psychedelic.

    20. JR

      Yeah, wheel within a wheel.

    21. RS

      Right.

    22. JR

      Like, the, the des- description of the things that people ... Usually, they try to say that it's some sort of a UAP.

    23. RS

      Right.

    24. JR

      That's a, that's the common thing that people like to say, right?

    25. RS

      (inhales deeply) Uh, well, it could be.

    26. JR

      Which also might be connected.

    27. RS

      (clears throat) It could be a DMT vision, though.

    28. JR

      Oh, easily.

    29. RS

      Yeah.

    30. JR

      Well, d- you know the guys out of Jerusalem that think that the whole burning bush thing was DMT.

  2. 2:05 – 4:44

    Burning bush as pharmacology: acacia DMT + harmala MAOIs and “local ayahuasca”

    1. RS

      Wha- what's cool is the, uh, Hebrew word for bush, burning bush, is the same as, as, um, Sinai, Mount Sinai.

    2. JR

      (clicks tongue) Really?

    3. RS

      Yeah, yeah, and-

    4. JR

      The words the same?

    5. RS

      Uh, the same root. Th- the in- the thing about the Hebrew language, at least, uh, for Biblical Hebrew, is every word is based on a three-letter root. Uh, so the word for bush contains those three letters and the word for s- um, you know, for Sinai contains th- tho- those same three letters.

    6. JR

      (clicks tongue) And how is that significant? Like, you n- you could have that, I'm sure there's English examples of three letters that are similar, but completely different meaning, like why, why is, why do those three letters as a root connect these words uniquely?

    7. RS

      (inhales deeply) Well, it could be that bush grew on Mount Sinai, and, uh, you know, that was the significance of the location of the burning bush.

    8. JR

      Oh, I see. So it was literally named after that experience.

    9. RS

      Could be, could be. Yeah. Well, you're talking about the acacia bush-

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. RS

      ... which releases DMT-

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. RS

      ... uh, when it's burnt. The-

    14. JR

      And it's very common in that area, right?

    15. RS

      Yeah. Uh, in fact, there's, um, (clicks tongue) a plant, it's a weed, uh, called Peganum harmala, uh, which also grows in that part of the world, and it contains beta-carbolines, uh, which are the, uh, compounds responsible from making DMT, uh, for making ayahuasca orally active. So, they have their own ayahuasca p- plants available i- in tandem there.

    16. JR

      Isn't it bizarre that you saying that, to many people listening, sounds utterly crazy? Like, the proposition, just proposing that these people that were writing these things down a long time ago, these experiences, they were probably experiencing some sort of a psychedelic state-

    17. RS

      (inhales deeply)

    18. JR

      ... and they were trying to describe it.

    19. RS

      Well, in thinking about, you know, psychedelic states back then and, you know, b- in the prophetic literature, um, (clicks tongue) you know, you can think of the visions as being generated from the bottom up, when you take something. Uh, in the m- model of the Hebrew Bible, anyway, it all comes, i- i- it all, uh, you know, comes down from God. You know, so it's about, it's, it's a top-down, uh, you know, uh, you know, causal relationship between the source of the visions and the visions, as opposed to them being generated by taking something. It g- it's, it's exogenous DMT versus endogenous DMT.

  3. 4:44 – 5:07

    Why learn ancient Hebrew: three-letter roots, ambiguity, and reading “clouds” of meaning

    1. JR

      Mm. (clicks tongue) And if we tried to ... When ... What is the difference, like for your interpretation, like you, I, I know you had read the English version of the Bible, but what is the difference between learning ancient Hebrew and reading it in like the source language? Like w- what was it like for you? Like what, what made it different?

  4. 5:07 – 8:29

    From Zen expectations to Jewish texts: DMT content, identity retention, and a personal tradition shift

    1. RS

      Um, well, I mean, it might be helpful to even go back to why I started reading the Hebrew Bible.

    2. JR

      Sure, yeah.

    3. RS

      Uh, uh, uh, of, of all things. Yeah. Um, well, when I was doing my DMT work, uh, I was really involved with the Zen Buddhist community, uh, I, that I started affiliating myself with, learning from when I was 22. Um, and, uh, that was the spiritual approach I took to the DMT work. I was expecting it to be consistent with a Buddhist enlightenment goal.

    4. JR

      Mm.

    5. RS

      You know, f- with no form, no thoughts, no sense of self, anything like that. Uh, so that was the expectation that I took in with me when I was doing those studies. Um, would people have those kinds of experiences just being given DMT without any other trappings?

    6. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RS

      Uh, no expectation, just go in there, you know, tell us what it's like.So instead of that, uh, it was DMT, it was full of content, people were interacting with it, their sense of self is maintained, uh, which was not at all consistent with the- the Buddhist model that I brought to bear. You know, so that was going on. Like, okay, you know, Buddhism's not quite holding up to the data. Um, and then my Buddhist community and I parted ways over the psychedelic work. Uh, they thought it was promoting a, you know, diluted idea that psychedelics could be spiritual. So there were some personal issues as well that led to something that was, you know, different than the Buddhist model. So I'm Jewish. I was wandering around a new age bookstore and found a very cool book called The Kabbalah of Envy by Milton Bander. And, uh, it's a very short book, and he starts describing the- the difference between a grudge, uh, and revenge and envy and jealousy, very subtle ideas about, you know, how to relate to the world. And it came from the Jewish, uh, you know, model, from Jewish philosophy, Jewish psychology. So I thought, "Oh, interesting, uh, interesting." You know, maybe there's something in my own tradition that was more consistent with the DMT, uh, effect and also was more personally relevant. So I started to read the Hebrew Bible, and then just went down this huge rabbit hole. You know, so wh- when you're reading it in Hebrew, uh, you're reading three ... y- you're reading words that are derived from three-letter roots. And those, uh, roots may have a huge, um, range of meaning. Uh, something, for example, could cause a sin, and something could, um, remove a sin just by an extra, you know, dot in the middle of a letter. You know, so it can really kind of, uh, bring you closer to the kind of large-scale way of looking at the text. It isn't just A follows B follow C. There's, uh, there's a diffuse dispersion of A, then there's B, and then there's C. There are these, you know, clouds of interaction, uh, which are a lot more fluid than what would be a straightforward English, uh, rendition.

  5. 8:29 – 12:21

    Embodied resonance with scripture: spinning yarn, trance states, and “entering” the ancient scene

    1. JR

      D- did you get to a point where you could, like, think in that language? Like, are you fluent enough in it that you could ... or are you just interpreting it? Like, how good are you at it?

    2. RS

      Um, well, I mean, there's a lot of ways to interact with a text. Uh, so the first thing came to mind when y- when you were asking that is, uh, um, back in the day, I used to spin fleece into yarn and then weave the yarn into rugs.

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. RS

      I, uh, I spent like ... uh, l- like, after I stopped the DMT work, that's all I did for a year was to, "Mm."

    5. JR

      Just make rugs?

    6. RS

      (laughs) Yeah, just spin wool and make rugs. Yeah. So, um, there's a part when they're building the tabernacle, uh, in the desert. You know, the, you know, the Hebrews had been led out of Egypt, you know, by Moses.

    7. JR

      Uh-huh.

    8. RS

      And, and, you know, they're in the wilderness. And, uh, they're building this tabernacle, uh, to house the Ark. And the women are spinning right from the goats. You know, they're spinning the hair from the goats right into yarn without first, you know, shaving them.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. RS

      And I was spinning all that, uh, time, uh, myself. And, uh, it, uh, felt like I was back there. I was back there spinning.

    11. JR

      I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

    12. RS

      Well, I was spinning, uh, yarn from a goat, a live goat.

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. RS

      A- a- and I was, like, in the mind of the person spinning it back then.

    15. JR

      So you just put yourself into that state while you were doing it, and you ... that's why you enjoyed it?

    16. RS

      Well, it was, um, it was a, you know, like a resonance between me spinning, you know, wherever I was living back then, and, uh, just being in a trance with the spinning and identifying, you know, fully with someone who's doing the spinning, like, way back when, straight from the goat. Yeah, it was, um ... What was it? I don't know. It, it was a trance. It was a movement into somebody else's consciousness from, like, the distant, distant past.

    17. JR

      And you ... So you actually felt when you were doing this like you were a person that was living back then?

    18. RS

      Mm-hmm. Yes.

    19. JR

      What, what else changed about how you were thinking other than the fact that you're making clothes this way? Like, was it ... What, what, what were the other things that made you think like a person back then?

    20. RS

      Well, it was very cool. I mean, I was spinning yarn for the tabernacle, which was gonna house the Ark, you know, the Ark of the Covenant, Ten Commandments, and all that. Uh, you know, it's a very rich world. And, uh, I think, you- you know, that's the- the first time I really saw at least my whole person, anyway, that could identify with this scene being described. And I think that comes from really understanding th- you know, the language and how ambiguous it can be.

    21. JR

      (sighs) One of the great things about language is being able to talk to people in it. How many people can you talk to in ancient Hebrew? Are there ... Is there, like, a chat group where you guys get together? (laughs)

    22. RS

      Um, well, you know, there's modern Hebrew now, which is spoken i- in Israel. Um, and it's, you know, based on biblical-

    23. JR

      Is it the same as ancient Hebrew?

    24. RS

      You know, uh, it has a l- it has a lot of, uh, the same three-letter roots. Uh, and, you know, the words are the same. Yeshel means from, and, uh-... yeah, shalom means hello and peace.

    25. JR

      What are the differences between, like, ancient Hebrew and standard Hebrew?

    26. RS

      Modern Hebrew, yeah. I'll tell you, I- I don't know much about, or I don't know much modern Hebrew. Y- y- when I was a kid I went to Hebrew school and learned modern Hebrew, but it's really ... without speaking it, you, you forget it.

  6. 12:21 – 15:55

    Book of Enoch shock: Watchers, Nephilim, and translation uncertainty around “sons of Elohim”

    1. JR

      I'm in the middle of the audiobook of the Book of Enoch, and it's one of the wildest things I've ever listened to in my life.

    2. RS

      It's weird.

    3. JR

      Oh my God, it's so weird.

    4. RS

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      When you realize that a lot of the people in the Book of Enoch are also in the Bible, and that it's one of the craziest stories. It's one of the craziest origin stories ever.

    6. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      That angels came down and bred with humans and made giants.

    8. RS

      Right.

    9. JR

      (laughs) The giants destroyed the earth. Like, what is this story?

    10. RS

      Um, it, it, it's mostly in the Hebrew Bible. You know? It's the story of what led to the flood. Yeah, the Sons of Elohim.

    11. JR

      That ... What a strange concept, that angels came down and bred with humans.

    12. RS

      It's a very weird idea. Um, well, there's different ways to look at translating B'nai Elohim. You know, it might be ... Well, the first word, B'nai, means the sons of. Uh, you know, so it kind of revolves on what's the meaning of Elohim. So it, you know, could be God with a big G, could be god with a small G, could be angels, could be dignitaries in a government, like judges.

    13. JR

      Mm.

    14. RS

      Yeah. So, you know, the less far out, um, kind of interpretation of that, uh, phrase, or the, that, that term is, um, you know, the sons of the mighty, the sons of the judges, you know, the sons of the renowned people, as, as opposed to the, you know, the sons of angels-

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RS

      ... or the, or the sons of God.

    17. JR

      Okay. So w- w- ... What, what ... How do you interpret the watchers? What do you think that could be?

    18. RS

      Uh, I think th- ... Well, they're not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. They are mentioned in the Book of Enoch. That's a crazy book, isn't it?

    19. JR

      It's crazy.

    20. RS

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. RS

      You know, I started reading it, and I said to my wife, I s- s- y- ... Like, "I can't handle this. It's too much." Y- ... (laughs)

    23. JR

      It's ... Because if that was left in the Bible, if they decided that that was like a part of the canon, that would change everything.

    24. RS

      Well, in what ways?

    25. JR

      (laughs) It's the craziest story ever, that these things came down and bred with humans and created giants, and the giants destroyed and consumed everything.

    26. RS

      Yeah, those giants.

    27. JR

      And consumed each other. Like ...

    28. RS

      Yeah, bloodshed.

    29. JR

      What kind of kooky story is this? Like, what is this?

    30. RS

      Well, it's the reason for the flood, you know-

  7. 15:55 – 19:37

    Flood myths, Younger Dryas, and civilizational “resets”: history, myth, and catastrophe

    1. JR

      Well, whatever the whole Jesus Christ thing was, it seems like that was a real event.

    2. RS

      Right, as opposed to the flood.

    3. JR

      The flood seems like a real event too. Don't, don't you think the flood was a real event?

    4. RS

      What about ... Let's see.

    5. JR

      I think the flood was the Younger Dryas impact. I think likely. Obviously, I don't know what I'm talking about. But my, my inclination is to believe guys like Randall Carlson, 'cause it's a very compelling narrative. Like, what he's saying is, we pass through a comet storm. It happens these, this particular time every year, and there's been times in history where we've been hit. And it's very likely that this time period, this Younger Dryas impact time period, that could have been the end of whatever civilization existed at the time, and what we are is a rebuilding of it.

    6. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      We just f- kind of forgot about it. And it doesn't make sense that you could forget, like, how they built the pyramids.

    8. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      But they did. Like, you know ... (laughs) It's, it, it seems like there was h- really advanced people-

    10. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      ... at one point in time.

    12. RS

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      Something t- horrible happened, and then it took a while for people to bounce back. And we are ... We're, we're the, the direct linear progression of the people, like, from Mesopotamia and Iraq and all that. That's, that's us now, but before that, there was probably something really wild.

    14. RS

      Yeah. W- well, if you look at the text's description of, uh, the generations from Adam to Noah, you know, w- what civilization was like-

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. RS

      ... between the beginning and the time of the end. Yeah, I mean, it became filled with violence. And, uh, you know, God just, you know, said, "Forget it." Yeah. You know, so, that's one way of looking at the Younger Dryas, I suppose, is this is what it looks like when God changes his mind.

    17. JR

      Sure. That also could have been, like, the Yucatan impact, right? God's like, "We can't get anywhere with these fucking dinosaurs everywhere." Just shh, boom.

    18. RS

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      About to get tired of lizards running the world for a couple of ... He maybe gave it a couple hundred million years. "Figure it out, guys."

    20. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      And then they have to reset.

    22. RS

      Yeah, but what comes after us, I wonder?... in 200 million years.

    23. JR

      I think it's most likely digital.

    24. RS

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      I think we're transferring what the idea of what a life form is, what does a life form do, we wanna think that it has to be just like us. And I don't think necessarily that's true. I think we might be giving birth to something we didn't anticipate would be a life. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. Happy Dad's hard drinks are a low carbonation, gluten-free, and easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. Football games, golfing, watching fights, or out on the lake, these moments are made for Happy Dad. Everyone is drinking all these skinny cans loaded with sugar, but Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal can. Can't decide on a flavor? Grab a variety pack; lemon lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a great flavor in collaboration with Death Row Records. Happy Dad is now available nationwide in the USA and Canada. Go to your local liquor store or visit happydad.com and for a limited time, use the code ROGAN to buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be 21 plus. Please drink responsibly. Happy Dad Hard Seltzer and Tea Malt Alcohol, Orange County, California.

  8. 19:37 – 42:59

    AI as future species—and messiah/antichrist imagery: ethics, prophecy, and mind-reading tech

    1. RS

      Yeah, a very cool book I try to mention as often as possible is called The Last and... The First and Last Men by Olaf Stapledon. And he talks about 19 species of man, w- and this is the first one. It's... The story spans two billion years. It's this huge story.

    2. JR

      Whoa.

    3. RS

      Yeah. Uh, and, and it's mostly through genetic engineering, mak- make people bigger, smarter, like brains that, uh, occupy a football field. That's one of the spe-

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. RS

      ... the species (laughs) of, of man. Yeah. You know, so his thought is it occurs biologically, you know, through, you know, through genetic manipulation.

    6. JR

      Just over time naturally?

    7. RS

      Uh, after a while, it gets steered. Yeah. What? L- let me think. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's all basically based on what people are... you know, what people want. You know, so there's one species that, uh, instead of love as kind of the core, uh, core valued feeling, they have hate (laughs) as their core valued feeling.

    8. JR

      (laughs) They just can't wait to hate.

    9. RS

      (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the species that kind of goes through-

    10. JR

      Wow.

    11. RS

      ... a period of, you know, rise and then decline obviously. It, it just couldn't sustain itself.

    12. JR

      Well, you gotta wonder, like, how long... D- this is... If, if AI really is a thing, it really is a life, we've gotta make a compelling argument why AI is bad and we are good.

    13. RS

      Yeah. I mean, yeah.

    14. JR

      You know, 'cause if people say, "If you, like, you really wanna be ethical and moral..."

    15. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      This is a horrible take, but if you really wanna be ethical and moral, you can be like, "People are, like, uniquely terrible." Like, "If we just gave in and became digital life, we could ensure there'd be no more suffering."

    17. RS

      Uh, h- how can you know that?

    18. JR

      (laughs) You can't (laughs) . You can't. You can't know if vaccine is safe and effective. You can't.

    19. RS

      You just have to try it-

    20. JR

      You gotta try it.

    21. RS

      ... and, and see what happens.

    22. JR

      I think a bunch of people try it. I don't know, uh, how much further, like, biological people can go while we're making digital people that are way better than us (laughs) at basically everything.

    23. RS

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      And I don't think that's too far away from being a reality.

    25. RS

      Uh, the way I try to follow it is through a biblical lens, you know, like-

    26. JR

      Really?

    27. RS

      Yeah. Like, y- you know, how does this-

    28. JR

      What chapter are we in right now?

    29. RS

      Yeah. Well, a, a good question. Um, you, we, we... You read the prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel-

    30. JR

      Mm-hmm.

  9. 42:59 – 46:07

    Content moderation and power patterns: YouTube reinstatement news and Nazi Germany parallels

    1. JR

      Well, that's where it gets really weird, right? Because one thing that we found out, uh, just a couple of days ago was that YouTube has to, there... Everybody they got taken down for their political opinions, they could have their YouTube channels back.

    2. GP

      I don't, I don't know how that... I don't know if that, sort of.

    3. JR

      Is that what they said?

    4. GP

      I mean, I saw the news today that a couple people tried to create some new channels, and they did not... Those were taken down instantly.

    5. RS

      (laughs)

    6. JR

      (laughs) They're like, "Psyche." But what, isn't that what the, the, their, they said in... That was the announcement?

    7. GP

      Oh, yeah.

    8. RS

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      It was something along those lines-

    10. RS

      Oh.

    11. JR

      ... that people who were removed because of their political persuasion, that they have to, uh, reinstate their accounts?

    12. GP

      I didn't see... Yeah, to allow creators for COVID-19 and election misinformation-

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. GP

      ... can apply for reinstatement.

    15. JR

      Oh.

    16. RS

      Oh, that's interesting.

    17. JR

      Okay.

    18. RS

      Yeah. Well-

    19. JR

      But that's not... Is that all political? Is COVID-19 political? Is that, is that what they consider political?

    20. GP

      It didn't say political.

    21. JR

      It didn't say political?

    22. GP

      No, it says, "For COVID-19," and for, comma, "election misinformation."

    23. JR

      Oh.

    24. GP

      Maybe a few other things. Um...

    25. JR

      So now they bring 'em back?

    26. RS

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      They can, or they can apply?

    28. GP

      They can apply.

    29. JR

      Okay. And so you might not... Yeah, they're like, "Psh, we'll let 'em apply." (laughs)

    30. GP

      YouTube said Tuesday they will allow previously banned accounts to apply for reinstatement, rolling back a policy that had treated violations as permanent.

  10. 46:07 – 1:14:38

    LSD before LSD, ergot dangers, and scopolamine “Devil’s Breath”: psychedelics vs. poisons

    1. RS

      Um, are you familiar with the book St. Peter's Snow? It was written in the '30s before LSD was discovered.

    2. JR

      No.

    3. RS

      It's about, uh, it, it's, it's, it's, you know, fictional, uh, book. It's a s- it's a great story. But, but it's about a compound, like LSD, that the governor serves all the people in the province to see, you know, for them to have a spiritual experience.

    4. JR

      Whoa.

    5. RS

      Yeah. And, and instead they turn on him and kill him-

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. RS

      ... while they're tripping. (laughs)

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. RS

      It doesn't work out the way he hoped-

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. RS

      ... at, at all. (laughs)

    12. JR

      That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

    13. RS

      Yeah. It, it's, yeah-

    14. JR

      It sounds like a good book.

    15. RS

      It's, it's a good story.

    16. JR

      And that was before the invention of LSD, or before the discovery rather.

    17. RS

      Yeah. I think there must have been some knowledge of LSD before it was publicly-

    18. JR

      Right.

    19. RS

      ... made available.

    20. JR

      What about, um, ergot? Is that... How similar is that? Like, when b- you know, people discuss, uh, like-

    21. RS

      Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    22. JR

      ... ergot poisoning and that's-

    23. RS

      The conta-

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. RS

      Yeah, contaminated grain. Yeah.

    26. JR

      Yeah. Is that similar to LSD?

    27. RS

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's an LSD-like compound in ergot.

    28. JR

      But it's also toxic too, right? It could poison you-

    29. RS

      Right.

    30. JR

      ... and you could die from it.

  11. 1:14:38 – 1:17:54

    Modern health controversies and microdosing: Tylenol risk, dosing logic, and “sparkly coffee” ayahuasca

    1. RS

      Yeah. What do you think's going on with American health?

    2. JR

      That's a good question.

    3. RS

      Right.

    4. JR

      Well ... (exhales) I've been fascinated by these videos of pregnant women taking Tylenol to, to show Trump that they don't believe in what RFK Jr's saying, that it's somehow or another anti-science, when this, uh, science came from Harvard.

    5. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      That's where the study came from. I mean, the, the, he, he's not making things up and these people are, like, on TikTok, they're pregnant women taking Tylenol.

    7. RS

      Yeah, I take a lot... Well, I, I mean, if it weren't for, you know, for Tylenol, I wouldn't be here today.

    8. JR

      For real? (laughs)

    9. RS

      Well, I, I mean, I do find it quite helpful. Yeah.

    10. JR

      Yeah?

    11. RS

      Yeah, yeah, for, you know, for injuries. As, as you get older, as a lot of people get older-

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RS

      ... you know, there's pain.

    14. JR

      It's a acetaminophen, though, right?

    15. RS

      Yeah, it's acetaminophen.

    16. JR

      Which is really toxic, isn't it?

    17. RS

      Well, if you take too much it can cause-

    18. JR

      So, that's what it is? It's like a dose thing?

    19. RS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JR

      So, one is fine.

    21. RS

      One's fine. You know, four is fine-

    22. JR

      Okay.

    23. RS

      ... probably. Uh, after f- four years, uh, you know, can upset your stomach, little, you know, liver toxicity is p- possible. You know, but if you stay within normal limits, seems to be fine.

    24. JR

      So-

    25. RS

      At least for myself.

    26. JR

      For you.

    27. RS

      And, a- a- well, and also in, in general, there haven't been recalls for, you know...

    28. JR

      And what do you take it for, if you're gonna take it?

    29. RS

      Uh, pain.

    30. JR

      What kind of pain you getting then?

  12. 1:17:54 – 1:48:28

    How the IV DMT study happened: War on Drugs funding, McKenna strategy, and high-dose reality checks

    1. RS

      Uh, well, I, I mean, y- you know, when I tried to get my DMT study off the ground, that, I mean, that was pretty weird. That was, you know, two years of just, you know, back-breaking labor.

    2. JR

      What year was that, wh- where it started?

    3. RS

      Uh, I, I submitted, um, the paperwork in September 1988. I got my first dose of DMT in November 1990. And I gave a lot of DMT then. I went kind of crazy for the-

    4. GP

      (laughs)

    5. RS

      ... (laughs) for the next five years.

    6. GP

      (laughs)

    7. JR

      (laughs) And you were doing IV drip slow release, right?

    8. RS

      No, it was e- it was one big dose.

    9. JR

      One big dose IV?

    10. RS

      Yeah, bolus, IV bolus.

    11. JR

      Oh.

    12. RS

      Yeah. Yeah, so the, our high dose was 0.4 milligrams per kilogram.

    13. JR

      Wow.

    14. RS

      And, and the highest dose is now being used are 0.3. Nobody has gone back up to 0.4 on a regular basis. Yeah, so people who really went out there on 0.4, they were pretty scared.

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. RS

      You know, they weren't sure they were coming back. Yeah.

    17. JR

      Oh, they weren't sure they were coming back?

    18. RS

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      That is a fear. That's a fear of all psychedelic experiences.

    20. RS

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      When you don't think you can shut it off.

    22. RS

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      And what is this? And is this real? Is this around me all the time and I'm ignoring it?

    24. RS

      Is this real?

    25. JR

      Is this real?

    26. RS

      Are you, and, and are you ignoring it? Um, yeah, boy, that's a terrible state to be in.

    27. JR

      Terrible. (yawns) Excuse me.

    28. RS

      That's why-

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. RS

      Yeah, that's why I think, you know, DMT ought to be carefully taken.

Episode duration: 3:09:29

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