Joe Rogan Experience #2394 - Palmer Luckey

1. 0:00 – 5:04

   Float tanks, waterproof VR rigs, and why standing desks feel wrong

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music) Um, suck as fuck. I haven't done the ball, but I have done those knee chairs.

   3. PLPalmer Luckey0:18

      Okay.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      They're a little annoying. And you're like...

   5. PLPalmer Luckey0:20

      What about standing desks?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      No.

   7. PLPalmer Luckey0:21

      You a standing desk fan?

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      No.

   9. PLPalmer Luckey0:24

      Yep. I, I, when I use them, I usually have lower back gets, gets, gets kind of sore just standing there.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       I feel like some part of you should be relaxed, and if you're standing, you're, you're gonna want to lean on something. To have a conversation, especially. 'Cause I know some people do podcasts standing up, like a standing up table. I'm like, "Okay."

   11. PLPalmer Luckey0:41

       That's crazy.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Yeah.

   13. PLPalmer Luckey0:42

       I, I have a buddy of mine who's doing a pr- have you ever seen the, the float tanks?

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Sure.

   15. PLPalmer Luckey0:47

       Where you float in the salt water and you-

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Yeah, we have one here.

   17. PLPalmer Luckey0:49

       Oh, no, no way.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Yeah.

   19. PLPalmer Luckey0:50

       So, I know someone who is building a rig with a waterproof keyboard, waterproof mouse, and a VR headset so that they can have a float computing rig. And they wanna just-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Whoa.

   21. PLPalmer Luckey1:01

       ... they wanna just, they wanna, they wanna program while they're floating in space.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       Wow.

   23. PLPalmer Luckey1:05

       And, uh, he hasn't, he hasn't gotten all the way there yet. The hardest part has actually been the mouse. There's lots of waterproof keyboards for various industrial applications, like, you know, they, so you don't get metal shavings in 'em-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       Sure.

   25. PLPalmer Luckey1:14

       ... and oil in them. But mice, it's actually, it's actually harder. But he's gonna get there.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       That makes sense 'cause there's a r- well, there's a laser now. It used to be an actual ball-

   27. PLPalmer Luckey1:21

       That would have been really hard.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       ... in the old days. Yeah.

   29. PLPalmer Luckey1:22

       Yeah, the optic... At this point, I don't think it's that hard. I think he, he's been, he's been screwing around with just taking a normal one and then, uh, wrapping it in, in, in Saran wrap.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       Mm.
2. 5:04 – 5:46

   Palmer Luckey’s origin story: building Oculus as a teenager and selling to Facebook

   1. PLPalmer Luckey5:04

      Yep. Well, I mean, that's been my... That was always my dream in the, in the ol-... You know, my first company was Oculus. And so, like, that was my dream was to just fully feel like you were inside of the video game f- completely forget about the real world.

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:16

      How old were you when you started working there?

   3. PLPalmer Luckey5:18

      So, I started building virtual reality headset prototypes when I was 14 or 15.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:23

      (laughs)

   5. PLPalmer Luckey5:24

      And then I, I built the first prototype of what I call the Oculus Rift at 16, and then I formally s- turned it into a company when I was 18, launched the product when I was 19, uh, and then sold the company a few years later to Facebook for a few billion dollars. So it was kind of a, it was kind of a crazy arc for me. I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      Wow.

   7. PLPalmer Luckey5:43

      Uh, d- did like... That was like... You know, that, that was... I was putting myself through school.

3. 5:46 – 7:33

   John Carmack enters the picture: latency, forums, and Oculus credibility

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:46

      Did you work with Carmack?

   2. PLPalmer Luckey5:48

      Yeah, so, well, Carmack was... So, uh, John Carmack was one of my heroes growing up.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:53

      Love that dude.

   4. PLPalmer Luckey5:54

      And it was one of these crazy things where the universe kind of brought us together. I was working on my VR technology, and nobody was paying attention to VR back then. It was a cr- kind of a crazy person thing. Nobody was paying attention to what I was doing. But I was posting about it on this internet forum, and then John Carmack started-... posting on that same forum asking for help modifying his own Sony head-mounted display that he had bought to reduce the latency. And so I gave him a bunch of input on why he couldn't do it, why it was a lar- ba- im- impossible project. And because I had been trying to do the same thing. And then he ended up seeing the work I was doing on the Oculus Rift and he said, "Hey, Palmer, can I buy one of these from you?" I said, "Well, I'm not really selling these yet, but, uh, I'm, I'd be happy to lend it to you for free." And so I sent it to him. He ended up writing a review and posting it on his blog and said it was, uh, "the best VR experience the world has ever seen." He introduced me to Sony. They tried to hire me to run their VR research and development lab. I turned them down. They doubled the offer. I turned that down. Um, and then so J- John was kind of the guy who got me like really ... He's kind of the first guy who got any public attention for me where everyone was like, "Oh, if John Carmack says this is important, then this must be important." And then if you could believe it, two years later after I started Oculus and started selling these, he actually left id Software and became the CTO of Oculus. So-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:08

      Yes.

   6. PLPalmer Luckey7:09

      ... we got- then I, then I had the, the incredible opportunity to work with one of my childhood heroes as my CTO. That was so cool.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:16

      What, what year was that?

   8. PLPalmer Luckey7:16

      That was 2012.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:18

      Okay.

   10. PLPalmer Luckey7:18

       So although he, he joined-

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:19

       'Cause he came on the podcast-

   12. PLPalmer Luckey7:20

       He-

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:20

       ... I think 2016 you brought one.

   14. PLPalmer Luckey7:22

       Yeah. Well-

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:23

       So, yeah.

   16. PLPalmer Luckey7:24

       So he joined in 2013. So summ- I think it was June of 2013, so about a year-

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:30

       Mm-hmm.

   18. PLPalmer Luckey7:30

       ... after I started Oculus is when he joined as CTO.

4. 7:33 – 10:04

   VR as fitness: Beat Saber, boxing games, and real training applications

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:33

      Mm. Well, he showed us, um, and he was doing whatever the one is where y- I guess you have drumsticks?

   2. PLPalmer Luckey7:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:39

      Is that what you have? And you're whacking stuff as it comes out of the sky. He showed us that. And like what a workout it is.

   4. PLPalmer Luckey7:44

      Whoa, whoa, whoa. With, with, with prob- with Beat Saber?

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:46

      Yes.

   6. PLPalmer Luckey7:46

      Yeah. He's a huge-

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:48

      Beat Saber. That's it.

   8. PLPalmer Luckey7:48

      ... Beat Saber fan.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:48

      Oh, he was going nuts. And he was doing it really fast. I was like-

   10. PLPalmer Luckey7:51

       Oh, no.

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       ... "This is nuts."

   12. PLPalmer Luckey7:52

       It's actually ... It's like it is good fitness-

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:55

       Yeah.

   14. PLPalmer Luckey7:55

       ... it is good coordination training.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:56

       Yeah.

   16. PLPalmer Luckey7:57

       It real- like Beat Saber was great because it really busted this myth that VR was this, like, you know, totally inactive, be a fat lazy slob thing.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:06

       Right.

   18. PLPalmer Luckey8:07

       People, people ... VR gaming, at least as it exists today, takes a lot more caloric expenditure than any other type of gaming. I mean like-

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:13

       For sure.

   20. PLPalmer Luckey8:14

       And like even more than like other motion games. Like remember Wii Bowling and Wii Sports?

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:18

       Mm-hmm.

   22. PLPalmer Luckey8:18

       Like, that's like one movement every once in a while. Like Beat Saber's a full body workout.

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:22

       What's really impressive is the boxing games.

   24. PLPalmer Luckey8:25

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:25

       The boxing games are a really good workout.

   26. PLPalmer Luckey8:27

       Y- did you play, I think one of them was Creed by a company called Survios?

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:30

       I don't remember what the name was. We had a couple different ones at the old studio in LA and-

   28. PLPalmer Luckey8:35

       Yep.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:35

       ... y- I'd work out with it. I'd put it on and, you know, you do a round with these virtual boxers and-

   30. PLPalmer Luckey8:41

       Yep.
5. 10:04 – 16:52

   Robot Fight League and the bigger idea: teleoperation, learning opponents, and safe sparring

   1. PLPalmer Luckey10:04

      ... the text message that I was just doing with Logan Paul last night. Um, I said, "It's time to have robots fighting people."

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:15

      (laughs)

   3. PLPalmer Luckey10:15

      "My dream is that you can have robots perfectly tuned to match your own current physical capability and progressively ramp up against yourself over time or against the greats." Like we, we were talking through, like now, this was less VR. Well, are you, are you even following some of the robot fighting league stuff?

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:30

      Yes.

   5. PLPalmer Luckey10:30

      Having the ro- So that's controlled by VR. You put on a VR headset-

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:33

      Right.

   7. PLPalmer Luckey10:33

      ... you put on a motion capture suit, you tele-operate a robot. One of the things I've been talking with Logan about is the idea of having where you have one tele-operated robot versus a actual human.

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:44

      Uh-huh.

   9. PLPalmer Luckey10:44

      But then what we were talking about is this idea of having the robot learn from, like you're saying-

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:48

       Yeah.

   11. PLPalmer Luckey10:48

       ... learning from footage of y- of not just the greats, but even yourself-

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:51

       Mm.

   13. PLPalmer Luckey10:52

       ... so that it, it can be basically ex- you could fight against your style, your exact level of strength. And then of course you want to fight against the greats and see just how far you have to go and just get the shit kicked out of you.

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:01

       The other thing I was thinking about what a robot could do if you programmed it cor- correctly, it would have a really accurate sense of distance so it would be able to touch you instead of hurt you.

   15. PLPalmer Luckey11:12

       It could pull its punches.

   16. JRJoe Rogan11:13

       Yes.

   17. PLPalmer Luckey11:14

       That's a really good point.

   18. JRJoe Rogan11:14

       Which is the best sparring partners.

   19. PLPalmer Luckey11:16

       Someone who ca- So, so the mechanics of it are all the same.

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:18

       Yes.

   21. PLPalmer Luckey11:19

       But you don't have the follow through of actually getting beat up.

   22. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       Well, it would have, it would have more control probably even than a person, right?

   23. PLPalmer Luckey11:25

       So people-

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:25

       So just like you think of the precise movements that surgical robots are able to do.

   25. PLPalmer Luckey11:29

       Absolutely. Um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan11:31

       Yeah.

   27. PLPalmer Luckey11:31

       Well, I mean, it's you could do this ... The, the main thing that robots have is they have just such fast reaction time. And so you could put sensors in like a glove. You could have it where the moment that it hits or even a ranging sensor, where I mean it could stop a millimeter away from you.

   28. JRJoe Rogan11:46

       (laughs)

   29. PLPalmer Luckey11:46

       So yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, you could, you could totally, you could tota- you could totally do that.

   30. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       Is this something that someone's working out with?
6. 16:52 – 23:17

   UAPs, sensor spoofing, and what would count as real evidence

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:52

      Wasn't there some weird discovery-

   2. PLPalmer Luckey16:54

      (clears throat)

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:54

      ... uh, recent discovery of an asteroid where they picked apart whether it's the im- the crucial amino acids for life or some sort of genetic material?

   4. PLPalmer Luckey17:05

      You're talking about the, the NASA release that there were strong indica- like biosigns in, uh, co- that are, that are compatible with, with what we'd expect from life?

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:13

      Yes.

   6. PLPalmer Luckey17:14

      There was, and then I think they, they-

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:15

      Recently, right?

   8. PLPalmer Luckey17:16

      It was recently, although they walked it back pretty quickly.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:19

      Oh, did they?

   10. PLPalmer Luckey17:19

       Um, th- the, there was kind of an initial release that said that we found that are, that they're strongly aligned with being biological signals, and then they re- re- kind of reached back, they said, "Well, maybe not."

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:31

       Do you kn- do you think that-

   12. PLPalmer Luckey17:32

       I, I haven't dug into that one as deep as others. I've just been too busy really lately, and that you're right, this is like very recent news.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       I always wonder if someone got overenthusiastic or if someone said-

   14. PLPalmer Luckey17:41

       (laughs) Did they get to them?

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:42

       ... "Hey," yeah, "why don't you shut the fuck up?" You know, like-

   16. PLPalmer Luckey17:45

       Yep.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       ... "We're trying to slow this whole release of alien technology-"

   18. PLPalmer Luckey17:49

       Yep.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:50

       "... alien life, slow it down."

   20. PLPalmer Luckey17:52

       Well-

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:52

       "Try to keep society together so we have a stock market." (laughs)

   22. PLPalmer Luckey17:55

       Well, the good news, the good news in this case is I think even, even in the most optimistic sense, and optimistic meaning I hope they find life, I think it's gonna end up being, you know, some microbes. It's not, whatever they saw was not consistent with, you know, oh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:07

       Right.

   24. PLPalmer Luckey18:07

       ... dude, it's a, it's a person in the rock.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:09

       Right.

   26. PLPalmer Luckey18:09

       Uh, which of course what we all want. We want li- uh, people or, you know, little green men or-

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       Right.

   28. PLPalmer Luckey18:14

       ... som- something like that.

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:15

       That's probably gonna be pretty far away.

   30. PLPalmer Luckey18:17

       It probably is, and it seems, I mean, in my experience...... on this front is largely from a military angle, and looking at a lot of the footage that's coming out and, and, and, and a lot of the sensor feeds that have come out. And the thing that, what we, like, what we really need even more than discovering microbes, like these flying objects-
7. 23:17 – 26:39

   Palmer’s ‘privately funded X-Files’ dream and disclosure incentives

   1. PLPalmer Luckey23:17

      You know, I've kind of got my retirement figured out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:19

      Yeah.

   3. PLPalmer Luckey23:19

      Um, and I have for a while. Um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan23:21

      Can't you just retire right now if you wanted to? Like, think about it.

   5. PLPalmer Luckey23:23

      I mean, I could. It's just, I, what I'm doing I think is important, you know?

   6. JRJoe Rogan23:25

      Yeah.

   7. PLPalmer Luckey23:25

      So I, I gotta, I gotta see my mission through. Like, um, the government is, we've been spending way too much money on defense, not getting nearly enough for it. So I started Anduril with the goal of saving taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars a year. I need to, I need to see that through. But what I wanna get to someday is, uh... See, there, there's a handful of these government groups that are going around looking into things like what you're talking about, you know? Like, they-

   8. JRJoe Rogan23:47

      Mm-hmm.

   9. PLPalmer Luckey23:47

      ... they look into the, the strange phenomenon.

   10. JRJoe Rogan23:49

       Right.

   11. PLPalmer Luckey23:50

       Um, those groups do exist, and I've tracked down a few of them. The problem is that they're not taken seriously, they're not well-funded, and, uh, you know, they're, they're, they're subject to all the same normal rules as an average government employee. Like, their, their problems are not, you know, finding weird things. It's stuff like getting approval to buy plane tickets to go somewhere and, you know, getting approval to stay there for two nights versus, versus one night.

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:13

       Really?

   13. PLPalmer Luckey24:13

       Oh, it, look, it's just the, it's the typical government bureaucracy where they have to make every penny count. They only have so much money. Anyway, one of my dreams is I'm gonna, at some point when I'm retired, I'm gonna go get deputized by the government, go get my federal badge, and, uh, I'll be the, I'll, I'll, I'll be the government's, uh, uh, privately funded X-Files, and I'll just fly around-

   14. JRJoe Rogan24:31

       Dude.

   15. PLPalmer Luckey24:31

       I'll fly around in my own plane, I'll have my own team, we'll bring our own sensors, our own computers. "Oh man, if only we could bring in this expert," but he's on the other side of the world. Just say, "Bring him in."

   16. JRJoe Rogan24:40

       Da da da. (laughs)

   17. PLPalmer Luckey24:41

       "Br- br- bring him in. Send the, send the, send the plane."Yes, sir.

   18. JRJoe Rogan24:44

       Put out the Palmer signal.

   19. PLPalmer Luckey24:45

       Y- yes, yes, sir, he'll be here in 12 hours. You know, like-

   20. JRJoe Rogan24:47

       Ugh.

   21. PLPalmer Luckey24:47

       ... th- w- I, I feel like there's enou- and not even just aliens, in general, there's enough weird stuff going on-

   22. JRJoe Rogan24:52

       Mm-hmm.

   23. PLPalmer Luckey24:53

       ... that it doesn't seem like a stretch to have somebody or something that really stays on top of that stuff.

   24. JRJoe Rogan24:59

       It seems like a very good idea. Did you see The Age of Disclosure? Did you see the documentary?

   25. PLPalmer Luckey25:03

       Age of Disclosure? No, I haven't seen that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan25:05

       It's a n- it's a new one, and it, it, it has a hypothesis. It has a theory of why there hasn't been disclosure, and a lot of it has to do with the legal implications, because too many people have been misappropriating funds-

   27. PLPalmer Luckey25:19

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:19

       ... if this is real.

   29. PLPalmer Luckey25:21

       Sure.

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:21

       So if this is real, they-
8. 26:39 – 38:53

   Fixing defense procurement: waste, incentives, competition, and who sets policy

   1. PLPalmer Luckey26:39

      I mean, it's just across the board our country's been spending so much money-

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:43

      Wow.

   3. PLPalmer Luckey26:43

      ... on what is supposed to be for national security, but in, in re- in reality, it's, a lot, lot of it has nothing to do with that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:50

      Mm-hmm.

   5. PLPalmer Luckey26:50

      And so that was why I got into, that was why I got into the defense base. Like if you have-

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:54

      Well, isn't that with e- everything though, right? It's like, that's how it is with charities as well.

   7. PLPalmer Luckey26:57

      So it, it's, it's with everything-

   8. JRJoe Rogan26:58

      Yeah.

   9. PLPalmer Luckey26:58

      ... but it's a question of, of how you can appr- apply targeted pressure as a private individual, right? So yeah, like charities, there's a lot of, lot of graft going on, but what can I really do to stop that at each of these charities, right? Like no, there's, there's no one charity that kind of dominates, right? It's, it's a, it's a thousand, it's a thousand grains of rice. Um, whereas the Department of Defense is one giant entity with a trillion dollar a year budget. And so it's much easier, like if, if you wanted to s- you know, call it like say $100 billion a year for taxpayers, you kind of have to go after the big concentrated chunks. Like you might be able to do that going after like, healthcare problems, maybe education problems, definitely going after Department of Defense problems. And I know a lot more about how to build good technology than I do about healthcare. And so, um, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan27:47

       Like if these, if these were all private companies, they would never survive the way they're running.

   11. PLPalmer Luckey27:53

       Correct. Well, I mean, yeah. These government agencies, they, when they make mistakes, they don't go out of business. And in fact they can make bad mistakes over and over and over again and still remain in business. Uh, y- you, it's... I do think, I th- I think we're turning a corner with some of this. Did you see, um, the new Secretary of the Army Dan Driscoll's, uh, AUSA talk yesterday?

   12. JRJoe Rogan28:14

       No, I did not.

   13. PLPalmer Luckey28:15

       Oh man, it's, it might be worth pulling it up.

   14. JRJoe Rogan28:17

       Okay.

   15. PLPalmer Luckey28:17

       He, he pulls up this piece, um, this piece of hardware and he is like, "Hey, like this little thing, like it costs this insane amount of money and we were able to make it in our own lab, just 3D print it for like $10. And so that's what we're gonna be doing now." Like, and he like, he killed the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle program. He killed this new kind of boondoggle of a robotic ca- ro- robotic tank pr- program where it was gonna be millions of dollars for these robot tanks that were gonna get blown up by $300 drones. And so he, I mean he, the, there's just kind of been like no rules just going and axing all of the dumb stuff that doesn't make sense. And then taking a knife to these companies that have been charging way too much money, which is very different from the past.

   16. JRJoe Rogan28:59

       Hmm.

   17. PLPalmer Luckey29:00

       It's very rare. It has been a long time since you saw a secretary level official being willing to publicly contraindicate defense companies and say, "You're screwing over taxpayers and it ends here." Uh, so-

   18. JRJoe Rogan29:13

       Whoa.

   19. PLPalmer Luckey29:13

       ... I'm, I'm, I'm actually pretty optimistic about this across the services. I think like pe- pe- people are fed up. There's-

   20. JRJoe Rogan29:19

       Do you think Doge sort of started that ball moving and then they-

   21. PLPalmer Luckey29:23

       I, I think it did.

   22. JRJoe Rogan29:24

       ... th- that direction is sort of momentum is headed on its side right now.

   23. PLPalmer Luckey29:27

       I, I think the, you know, the Doge thing was interesting because it wasn't even the technique so much. Like the techniques where they kind of went into the data on like USAID and looked through all of this stuff and like, like basically where the data science of it is what allowed them to find the graft. That doesn't really apply to finding the problems in DOD, um, because it's, it's just so much more deeply buried. But it kind of gave people permission to go look at these things. Like it gave people permission to even say, "I believe there is billions of dollars in waste in my department. I'm gonna do something about it." I don't think people felt like they had like psychic permission to do that five years ago.

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:04

       Oh wow. That's interesting.

   25. PLPalmer Luckey30:06

       Well, I mean, and let, let, let's go to like, kind of like the-

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:07

       So you just didn't wanna rock the boat five years ago?

   27. PLPalmer Luckey30:09

       Well, I mean, let's go to like the height of, and you know, not even making it political, just timeline wise. Go to the like the middle of the Biden administration.

   28. JRJoe Rogan30:15

       Mm-hmm.

   29. PLPalmer Luckey30:15

       Could you imagine any official in that area, like secretary or chair or anybody coming out and saying, "My department is wasting billions of dollars."

   30. JRJoe Rogan30:25

       (gasps)
9. 38:53 – 1:35:17

   Speech control, UK arrests, and ‘dead internet’ bots shaping reality

   1. JRJoe Rogan38:53

      It is in America, but it's a little disconcerting, like when you see th- the way they're handling things in Europe.

   2. PLPalmer Luckey38:58

      Oh, sure.

   3. JRJoe Rogan38:59

      Like, it's getting really weird in the UK. 12,000 arrests this year for social media posts about immigration, and now, now they want everybody to have a digital ID.

   4. PLPalmer Luckey39:05

      You got a license for that meme, mate? (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan39:07

      Yeah, it's getting really weird. And, you know, th- as that-

   6. PLPalmer Luckey39:11

      Arrests for, uh, uh, posting, uh, disturbing or offensive content.

   7. JRJoe Rogan39:16

      Yes, or annoying.

   8. PLPalmer Luckey39:17

      Could I share a little story there?

   9. JRJoe Rogan39:18

      Sure.

   10. PLPalmer Luckey39:20

       Um, this has been so funny watching, watching this in, in the UK because... So I... The first thing I ever did that anyone cared about was called Mod Retro. So it was this internet forum for people modifying game consoles, making, making, making portable versions of int- of, of old game consoles, upgrading modern game consoles. Anyway, when, when we started the site, it was me and a few other people who were kind of running it. I was the founder and there were a few other co-administrators, and one of them was this British guy who went by the online handle of Bacteria.

   11. JRJoe Rogan39:50

       (laughs)

   12. PLPalmer Luckey39:50

       And I won't say his real name because it doesn't matter. Um, but he, he was a British guy. He worked in, um, he worked in a very, very low level British government, so like, not higher up at all. But he, he worked in a government, government agency, government office, and, um, he was always, w- I think of all the people on this forum, which was mostly like teenagers and college students, he was kind of like the older guy. And he says, "Oh, we need to be kind about what we say." You know, that "we, we shouldn't say anything that is bad." And he was always pushing that our rules should say it's, that is was against our rules to offend anybody.

   13. JRJoe Rogan40:21

       Mm.

   14. PLPalmer Luckey40:21

       And you shouldn't be able to say anything, uh, that was, that was, that was too offensive. And, uh, you know, we mostly just made fun of him. "Aha, he's an old British man," you know. Uh, and, but what's interesting is he ended up eventually leaving the site because he thought people were being too mean to each other, and he started his own competing website. And the rule number one was, uh, "No content that make m- that may make any member feel demeaned, uncomfortable, or insulted." We're like, "Well..." I mean, they, and, uh, and, and w- we were all making fun of that. We were making our own little, you know, image macros and memes about it. Like, we actually made some fake ads for his website and put them on Facebook-

   15. JRJoe Rogan40:53

       (laughs)

   16. PLPalmer Luckey40:53

       ... and it said, "Come join the, uh, you know, the Bacteria's website. Nobody will say anything to you that might offend or displease you." Um, but what's interesting is as all this UK stuff has, has come around, I remember these kind of like long-forgotten childhood memories. Like, I was like 13 or 14 at the time. And I think it really is partly a cultural reflection for them. Like, there are a lot of people in the UK who genuinely think it's good to police this stuff. They don't want people to be able to go out and just cause a ruckus.

   17. JRJoe Rogan41:22

       Mm.

   18. PLPalmer Luckey41:22

       You know, to, to say things that are insulting in the streets. And of course you have people who are protesting against that, but I think that also their surveillance state, you know, where there's cameras everywhere, it's actually a reflection of different cultural norms. And so, uh, the, the one good thing about what's going on in the UK is I don't think it would ever come over to America very easily because culturally, you know, we're, we're not walking around feeling like it's... Like, we don't, we don't feel like it's a crime to insult people. They feel like it should be.

   19. JRJoe Rogan41:47

       Maybe perhaps some of p- some of them do, but I think it's so overwhelmingly-

   20. PLPalmer Luckey41:51

       Oh, it's worse.

   21. JRJoe Rogan41:52

       ... moving towards tyranny.

   22. PLPalmer Luckey41:53

       I think, I think it's the majority. That's the crazy thing.

   23. JRJoe Rogan41:55

       Really? You think the majority of people want it that way?

   24. PLPalmer Luckey41:57

       I, I think that the majority of people in the UK have no problem with people who post spicy memes getting a visit from the local constabulary.

   25. JRJoe Rogan42:06

       Wow, really?

   26. PLPalmer Luckey42:08

       I, I... That, that is, that has been my experience. Now there are people who disagree, of course, and like I would say maybe it's a growing group. Uh, they're, they're a highly visible group, they're protesting, but I, I... If, if I had to bet, they're... Most people don't care. Most people in the UK just don't care about it one way or the other. And I think the group of people who are on the side of the control is larger than the people who are on, not on the side. By the way, similar thing in China. Um, you know, people talk about Chinese censorship on things like, you know, Tiananmen Square.

   27. JRJoe Rogan42:33

       Mm-hmm.

   28. PLPalmer Luckey42:33

       And that's actually the majority Chinese opinion too. If you talk to most Chinese people and you say, "Well, what do you think about the fact that they're censoring all this discussion?" The typical... And I, I know lots of people in China, they say, "That's an irrelevant issue from 30 or 40 years ago. It doesn't matter. Anyone who's trying to make every discussion about Tiananmen Square is just a troublemaker. And I don't care if they're shut down, I'm glad that they're not clogging the comments, and I'm glad those people are being, are, are being pushed out of, of the conversation." And like, that's such a pretty normal opinion. Don't, don't cause trouble needlessly.

   29. JRJoe Rogan43:04

       Hm.

   30. PLPalmer Luckey43:04

       Now these same people might say, "I have strong opinions about the COVID lockdown information locked down in China." Like they might say, "I don't like that the Chinese government is locking down on, you know, l- locking us in our apartments." But when it comes to discussion of political issues, China in general, they think that people who bring this up like you would just be a troublemaker.

Episode duration: 3:03:44