Joe Rogan Experience #2428 - Michael P. Masters

1. 0:00 – 2:05

   Hollywood as “soft disclosure”: Spielberg, Vallée, and seeding UFO ideas in pop culture

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. MMMichael P. Masters0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Mm.

   4. MMMichael P. Masters0:14

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Disclosure Day, very interesting.

   6. MMMichael P. Masters0:19

      Yeah, I'm excited for that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      All right, we're rolling?

   8. NANarrator0:21

      Yeah, you got the-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Yeah, he was always, like, way ahead of the curve when it comes to the whole UAP/UFO stuff. You know, with Close Encounters of the Th- Third Kind, he had that French scientist that was essentially modeled after- Jacques Vallée. ... Jacques Vallée.

   10. MMMichael P. Masters0:35

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       He's always been ... I, I, I would love to talk to him. I wonder how much he knows. (laughs)

   12. MMMichael P. Masters0:40

       Is that an accident?

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       It sounds like it.

   14. MMMichael P. Masters0:41

       Was he, uh, fed some information? Was he a part of disclosure the whole time? That's what I've always wondered.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       I mean, what does that mean, right? 'Cause there hasn't really been disclosure.

   16. MMMichael P. Masters0:51

       No. But there has to be a slow process too, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       You think so?

   18. MMMichael P. Masters0:55

       I don't think ... I mean, the whole idea is that they're just sort of normalizing it, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MMMichael P. Masters1:01

       Uh, neurolinguistic programming they call it, where you're slowly getting people accustomed to these ideas. Like, the, the aspects of Close Encounters, for instance, where you have the radiation burns on the guy's face. You have a time travel component, where these, uh, World War II soldiers get out of the craft-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Right.

   22. MMMichael P. Masters1:18

       ... with the little beings and the bigger being and, I mean, uh, just, just seeding, seeding our culture with those little bits of information that might help later on down the road.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       God, that was, like, in the '70s, wasn't it? Like, when was Close Encounters?

   24. MMMichael P. Masters1:29

       Uh, yeah, I think it was.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Was it the '70s?

   26. MMMichael P. Masters1:32

       Late '70s, early '80s, maybe. Uh-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       Yeah.

   28. MMMichael P. Masters1:35

       Either way, I mean, uh, like, a lot of stuff he's done ... Like, I, I rewatched the ... God, what was it? Jeff Bridges, Starman, I think.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MMMichael P. Masters1:44

       There's a lot of elements of Disclosure in that, too. Like, I think there's just ... I don't know. I mean, obviously we don't know who's pulling the strings. We don't know what's going on. We don't know who's in charge. But it does make sense that if there is this thing that they know about, that we're supposed to know about, leak it out. Do it slowly. Get in our culture. Get it in our, our, our media in different ways, you know?

2. 2:05 – 4:06

   Hal Puthoff’s alleged disclosure briefing and who gets to decide what humanity knows

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:05

      Do you know the Hal Puthoff story, right, with George Bush? Do you know the story where they were talking about-

   2. MMMichael P. Masters2:10

      I don't think so.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:10

      Okay. Hal talked about it on my podcast, but he also talked about it in the Age of Disclosure documentary, where they brought in him and a bunch of different prominent thinkers.

   4. MMMichael P. Masters2:20

      I do know. Yeah, I watched that episode.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:21

      Yeah.

   6. MMMichael P. Masters2:21

      And I watched, um, the docu too.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      So to people that don't know, I'll just explain it.

   8. MMMichael P. Masters2:25

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      So they, they brought in him and a bunch of other prominent thinkers, and they had ... They, they sat them down and said, "Essentially, we have recovered crashed UFOs. We have biological remains of these creatures. Uh, we are considering releasing it to the public, and we wanna make an assessment of what are the pros and what are the cons. So we want to assign a numerical value that, you know, you're estimating what kind of an impact it would be on, uh, government, finances-"

   10. MMMichael P. Masters2:55

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:55

       "... religion, et cetera."

   12. MMMichael P. Masters2:57

       About whether they should do it, basically, right? Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       Right, whether or not they should release this information. And all of the people that were brought in came to the agreement that there was more con than there were pro-

   14. MMMichael P. Masters3:07

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:07

       ... and that formed their decision to not release it.

   16. MMMichael P. Masters3:10

       And didn't he say at first, like, he was pro-disclosure? He was like, "Of course we should do this," and then after the conversation, he switched teams and decided-

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:17

       Yeah, I don't know about that. Uh, maybe, perhaps. I mean-

   18. MMMichael P. Masters3:20

       I thought he said that he, he went into it thinking, "Well yeah, obviously we should do this," and then sort of was convinced otherwise after the conversation unfolded.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:28

       Yeah, how could you be convinced? Like, whose decision should it be? S- if some people know, everyone should know.

   20. MMMichael P. Masters3:34

       Exactly. Yeah, I don't know.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:34

       It's a humanity decision. It's ... I don't think it should be-

   22. MMMichael P. Masters3:37

       It is, and I think-

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       ... in anybody's han- in anybody's hands-

   24. MMMichael P. Masters3:39

       No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:40

       ... to decide whether or not this information gets distributed.

   26. MMMichael P. Masters3:43

       And the implications too, if they have zero-point energy. Like how would that solve the problems that we face today?

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       Yeah.

   28. MMMichael P. Masters3:49

       There's so many ramifications of it that ... Yeah, who, whose decision is it, and why has it been kept from us? I, I don't, I don't buy that whole, like, Orson Wells 1938 everybody would freak out bullshit. I don't, I, I don't think that's the case, at least not anymore. There's gotta be something more to it than that.

3. 4:06 – 7:37

   Unity, consciousness, and the cost of becoming “one mind”

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:06

      It would certainly have ... I don't know if they factored this in, but a uniting element. Like, you remember the Reagan speech where he gave-

   2. MMMichael P. Masters4:13

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:13

      ... in front of the United Nations, where he said, "Imagine how united we would be, we'd forget our differences, if we were faced with an alien threat from another world."

   4. MMMichael P. Masters4:20

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:20

      I mean, just knowing that we are all uni- ... I mean, just ... We ... You ... How old are you?

   6. MMMichael P. Masters4:27

      Uh, 47.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:28

      Okay, so you remember September 11th.

   8. MMMichael P. Masters4:30

      Mm-hmm, very well.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:31

      One of, one of the things that happened after September 11th was there was ... It was a horrible tragedy, but there was a beautiful result temporarily-

   10. MMMichael P. Masters4:39

       Mm-hmm. That's right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       ... where everybody was reuni- ... R- r- really united, like really united. Like, there was American flags in everybody's car in Los Angeles, you know? Like, the most ridiculous, progressive, sort of, kind of-

   12. MMMichael P. Masters4:49

       Mm-mm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:50

       ... you know, kinda fucked up place. But everybody became patriotic.

   14. MMMichael P. Masters4:55

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       In, in New York, everyone was friendly. I mean, people were smiling and, and saying hi to each other on the streets. We had all decided that we were together, and that we were, were faced with a real threat and that we had to be united. And-

   16. MMMichael P. Masters5:06

       I remember it well, yeah. You're right. And then, not to get too weird too fast here, but if there are aspects of sort of an all-encompassing consciousness that unites us associated with the UFO phenomenon too, if we recognize that we are just fingerprints on the same hand, we're all iterations of the same overarching consciousness, if ... Seemingly there is a part of that in the UFO phenomenon.

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       Yeah, seemingly.

   18. MMMichael P. Masters5:32

       So how would that unite us as well, even beyond the threat from outside? Like, if we did start to understand that we're all part of the same sort of cosmic community. Um, sounds kinda weird to say that, but-

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       It does sound weird. But have, have you seen the Apple show Pluribus?

   20. MMMichael P. Masters5:48

       No, it comes up a lot. Sh- worth watching?

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:50

       It's really good.

   22. MMMichael P. Masters5:51

       Yeah?

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:51

       It's really good. It's very, very original, very unique. But that is essentially what happens, and it has a negative aspect to it.

   24. MMMichael P. Masters5:58

       Oh? How so?

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:58

       There's a virus. I don't wanna give away too much of it-

   26. MMMichael P. Masters6:00

       Oh, yeah, true.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:01

       ... for people that wanna watch the show, 'cause it's a really good show. But there's a virus that ... They get a signal from, uh, another world, and they figure out what this signal is. And, uh, through this lab work, they re- reveal that this signal is some sort of the encoding-... of a specific virus. They work on this specific virus, it spreads and the entire planet becomes one consciousness-

   28. MMMichael P. Masters6:29

       Hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       ... except for a small number of people.

   30. MMMichael P. Masters6:32

       Interesting.
4. 7:37 – 13:14

   Puberty, embodiment, and wild human biology detours (sex changes & genetic anomalies)

   1. MMMichael P. Masters7:37

      I was, I was telling my son that the other day. Avi's his name. He's... You know, it's hard being in these bodies, especially going through puberty. You know, you're just like-

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:44

      Hmm.

   3. MMMichael P. Masters7:44

      ... "What is this thing I'm carrying, this little meat suit?" You know? And, and I was like, "Man, I've, I was the same way. Still am the same way." And I, I picked up instruments. I started painting. I learned to play every sport I could physically play. Like, there's ways to get that out, you know? But, it seems like a lot of that does come from just the anxiety and the angst-

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:04

      Sure.

   5. MMMichael P. Masters8:04

      ... and, and you know, you're growing into yourself. You're starting to get the feels. You know, you look at women differently-

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:09

      Hmm.

   7. MMMichael P. Masters8:09

      ... and it's like, "What do I do with this?"

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:12

      Well, it re-changes... It, it rewires the entire way you view the world.

   9. MMMichael P. Masters8:16

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:17

       And meanwhile, your body's physically changing and growing. You're like, "What am I gonna look like eventually?"

   11. MMMichael P. Masters8:22

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:22

       "This is weird."

   13. MMMichael P. Masters8:23

       It's so weird. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:25

       (laughs)

   15. MMMichael P. Masters8:25

       You know, there's actually this, uh... In a small island in the Pacific, they have this weird, um, characteristic where they start out as females. Ev- everybody does. We all start out as females in utero, and then maleness is imposed on the developing fetus. But they, they don't until puberty, 'cause they, they're not sensitive to dihydrotestosterone, the precursor to testosterone. So, they grow up their entire life as girls, and then at puberty they turn into a boy.

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:51

       So, they get raised as girls?

   17. MMMichael P. Masters8:53

       They are girls. They're physically girls.

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:54

       But they have penises?

   19. MMMichael P. Masters8:55

       Not yet. Nope.

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:56

       What?

   21. MMMichael P. Masters8:57

       The clitoris-

   22. JRJoe Rogan8:57

       This is a planet?

   23. MMMichael P. Masters8:58

       No. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       I mean, this is-

   25. MMMichael P. Masters8:59

       This is an island.

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:00

       ... what is this?

   27. MMMichael P. Masters9:00

       It's an island in the South Pacific. It's called pseudohermaphroditism. It's the weir-

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:04

       What?

   29. MMMichael P. Masters9:04

       I know. I learned about this in grad school when I was like-

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:06

       So, what do they look like before they-
5. 13:14 – 15:08

   Masters’ background and core thesis: UFO occupants as future human descendants

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:14

      Yeah. Well, w- you know, we're, we're so vulnerable. We're... And that's one of the weirder things. Like, so first, we shou- we get into what you do, uh, 'cause you have, uh, you have a very interesting theory. Tell everybody what your background is, first of all.

   2. MMMichael P. Masters13:28

      Yeah. All right. That does seem like a good place to start. Um, my background is in anthropology and biological anthropology. Um, my research mostly focuses on evolutionary anatomy, biomedicine. I've done some archeology in various places around the world and Montana. But the reason I'm here, I assume, 'cause (laughs) according to my friend Matt, we were, uh, we were butchering a, a mule deer, I think, I shot. And I was like, "Yeah, I gotta go to this conference." And I was like, "Do you wanna know what it's about?" He's like, "Nobody gives a shit about what you do other than UFOs, man." (laughs) And I was like, "Dammit, he's right."

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:04

      (laughs)

   4. MMMichael P. Masters14:04

      Like, I did actually use to do a lot of what I thought was cool stuff. But no, the, the main thing is that I've, I've become known for advocating for this idea that UFOs, uh, and the aliens are actually our time-traveling future human descendants. I wouldn't even say as opposed to extraterrestrials 'cause I do think that's a component too. I oftentimes get pigeonholed. People are like, "Oh, you just think they're all time-travelers." I don't. I actually say this all the time, but it doesn't matter. Uh, I do think there's a lot going on. But, but my background and, and the reason I approach this question this way is because there's a lot of characteristics of these aliens that look so hominin. They look just like us. And specifically what we'd expect to see in our hominin future if the same evolutionary trends continue into the future. So, I kinda just tie those things together. And even the, the saucer-shaped crafts seemingly are time machines themselves, so that's kind of the Cliffs Notes version.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      Well, it's a theory that a lot of people have independently sort of come to, right?

   6. MMMichael P. Masters15:07

      Yeah, especially recently.

6. 15:08 – 20:32

   Neanderthals, toolmaking, and how human evolution frames “future human” morphology

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:08

      Y- and the, the concept of w- we... Just if you just think about ancient man. I was watching this, uh, documentary on Neanderthals last night about this one, uh, intact Neanderthal, uh, skeleton that they found that was... It had, uh, sort of been, uh, it, it... He had died in a cave and, you know, there's stalagmites. Is it stalactites or mites? How do you say it?

   2. MMMichael P. Masters15:32

      Tites are up, mites are down.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      So, he was essentially mineralized.

   4. MMMichael P. Masters15:36

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      There was stuff all over the body, and it took a long time for them to break this body.

   6. MMMichael P. Masters15:40

      I think I saw that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:41

      Yeah.

   8. MMMichael P. Masters15:41

      Was that on Netflix?

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:43

      No. Well, I was watching it on YouTube. Maybe it originally was-

   10. MMMichael P. Masters15:45

       Oh, okay.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:45

       ... on Netflix. But it was just documenting how strange this, this body was that they had found, but it was immensely strong, like, much stronger than us. One of the interesting things was that their visual cortex, um, the, the, the part of the brain that would process vi- imagery was larger than ours.

   12. MMMichael P. Masters16:05

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:05

       10 to 20% larger.

   14. MMMichael P. Masters16:06

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       And that this... So, these things probably had better eyesight than us. Perhaps even were able to see at night. And that this was a bigger, stronger version of a human being. Like, much more durable than what we are, modern, 2025 Homo sapiens.

   16. MMMichael P. Masters16:21

       Yep.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       If you just look... Yeah, that's it. So, that's one of them.

   18. MMMichael P. Masters16:25

       Yeah, that one's cool. Neither human nor Neanderthal.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       Oh, really?

   20. MMMichael P. Masters16:29

       This is, uh, published in August.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:31

       Is this the sa- This might not be the same one.

   22. MMMichael P. Masters16:33

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:33

       This is maybe a different one. That's a weird one because what's that fucking thing on its head?

   24. MMMichael P. Masters16:37

       That's what it says. It's a stalactite growing out of it or something.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:40

       Wow. In a weird form. Weird.

   26. MMMichael P. Masters16:42

       Yeah, it's like a unicorn Neanderthal.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:44

       Yeah, like a crest.

   28. MMMichael P. Masters16:45

       They do, uh, they do have a sagittal ridge.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       Yes.

   30. MMMichael P. Masters16:49

       Um, homo, homo erectus had one. We- there's an offshoot, uh, in our hominin lineage called, uh, Paranthropus or robust australopithecines and they had a full-on, like, gorilla-style-
7. 20:32 – 32:05

   Future fertility crisis and why “abduction lore” fixates on gametes

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:32

      And we're, we're the most feeble versions of people that have existed within the last century, right? Like, if you go back to humans from the 1920s versus humans from the 2020s, people have way less testosterone now, way or higher instances of miscarriages, way lower sperm count. You know, there's a lot of factors that are at play right now that are changing what a human is. And if you extrapolate, if you look at the future, you would naturally say, "Well, we're probably going to be very thin." It seems like there's at least some sort of a push to eliminate gender. Like, gender seems like it's on the table as whether or not it's even necessary. There's all sorts of new technological innovations that are leading to the possibility, at least sometime in the future, of an artificial womb.

   2. MMMichael P. Masters21:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:22

      Um, there's genetic engineering with CRISPR and a, a lot of other different technologies that are being explored that we might be able to engineer human beings, and then even create a complete individual human being without a mother, without a father. So, if you thought about what that looks like in the future, like, one of our problems on, in this planet is we all have different ideologies, different religions, come from different parts of the world. We look different. And human beings, as tribal primates, have a tendency to other.

   4. MMMichael P. Masters21:56

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:56

      We other different tribes. Those are not us, we are us.

   6. MMMichael P. Masters21:59

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan21:59

      Those are the enemy. We go out-

   8. MMMichael P. Masters22:01

      You rally around it, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:02

      But if everybody's exactly the same and we share one mind, you know, then a lot of our problems go away.

   10. MMMichael P. Masters22:08

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:08

       If we no longer have to compete for resources, we no longer have the desire to procreate and to acquire land and to be, you know, to have a, a territory, we, we eliminate a lot of our issues. And that's what these things look like. When you look at the archetypal, these i- iconic sort of shapes that have been on cave walls all the way up to Close Encounters of the Third Kind, one thing they share is that they have no muscle, they have large heads, they have big eyes.

   12. MMMichael P. Masters22:42

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       And they-

   14. MMMichael P. Masters22:42

       And they're childlike.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       Yeah.

   16. MMMichael P. Masters22:43

       They're very paedomorphic, as we say. Yeah, you just tied together, like, a lot of really important points, um, related to this theory. Uh, aspects of why they're always interested in our gametes, why they come back and put that little machine on a man to collect semen, why they're constantly taking eggs from females and implanting fetuses, pulling them back out later. Like, they're clearly focused on reproduction, gamete extraction. And one of the things that might be fueling that in the future, if these are future humans, let's just assume for a second hypothetically, is that they might be having problems directly resulting from these trends towards self-domestication, these trends toward feminization, these trends toward reduced sperm counts, which is 60% across most populations of the world, in the industrialized world, 50% across the entire world. Um, yeah, problems with reproduction, uh, in vitro fertilization, exogenesis chambers might help solve some of those problems, growing the, the fetus outside of the body. So, so yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:49

       (laughs)

   18. MMMichael P. Masters23:49

       And, and like you said, you know, what do they look like? They look like kind of a, a hybrid between males and females to some extent. But there's still an essence of gender. Like, if you talk to Whitley Strieber, you know, he's with this being. He, he says in Communion that, "I had a sense that she was a woman. I don't know why."... but I-

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:07

       Mm.

   20. MMMichael P. Masters24:07

       ... kind of sensed that. So, it's almost like the, the essence of the individual, the soul of the individual still retains that sort of gender identity, even though our bodies are becoming more childlike, more gender indiscriminate. Uh, I don't know, but yeah, yet another one of those ways in which we might sort of grow together as a species.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:27

       Now, when you say they are extracting sperm, like, what, how many of these stories do you take seriously? There's a lot of these stories.

   22. MMMichael P. Masters24:38

       That's a great question, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:39

       You know? There's-

   24. MMMichael P. Masters24:40

       (clears throat)

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:40

       ... unfortunately, for any sort of spectacular public thing that's in the zeitgeist, like alien abduction, whether it's Whitley Strieber from Communion or the John Mack books, uh, f- the guy from Harvard that wrote, um, what was it? Abduction?

   26. MMMichael P. Masters24:58

       Passport to the Cosmos-

   27. JRJoe Rogan24:59

       Yeah.

   28. MMMichael P. Masters24:59

       ... and Abduction, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:00

       Yeah.

   30. MMMichael P. Masters25:00

       Two great books.
8. 32:05 – 38:39

   Time travel mechanics: block universe vs. paradoxes, and limits on how far back you can go

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:05

      God, that s- that's a crazy level of technological sophistication, the ability to venture back in time and somehow or another not fuck up the timeline that's leading to ... W- I mean, this is the problem that's always been theorized about time travel. Anything that you do, if you went back in time, any inter- interactions, you would completely change how the future would play out.

   2. MMMichael P. Masters32:31

      In the many worlds interpretation.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:32

      Yes.

   4. MMMichael P. Masters32:32

      Yeah. So that idea is, unfortunately, very pervasive, and mostly because of Back to the Future, which I think ruined the brains of most people.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:42

      (laughs) Mine, too.

   6. MMMichael P. Masters32:43

      Certainly in my f-

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:44

      Yeah.

   8. MMMichael P. Masters32:44

      ... my, my generation. Um, but what most physo- and physicists don't agree on many things, but most agree that we live in what's called a block universe. Landscape time, block time, where if you imagine all moments from the very beginning of the Big Bang to the end of the universe, where all matter disp- disappears into, like, a black hole or contracts or whatever it does, all moments are already there. They exist as this massive four-dimensional block of all moments, all world lines, everything. So you go back into the past, as you perceive it, you can do whatever you want. You can walk around, step on butterflies, you know, slap people in the face, kick over, you know, dinosaurs or whatever. I don't think we can go back that far, but you could do anything you want and it doesn't change anything because you're going back in the block universe and doing those things you were always already going to do. And when you get home, everything's the same because that was already their past. To everybody that stayed behind, that was already their past. It was only the future for you to go back and do those things that you were already gonna do, and then you just went and did them, get home, everything's the same because you were always going to do those things in the first place.

   9. JRJoe Rogan33:53

      That's bizarre. Th- that's hard to swallow.

   10. MMMichael P. Masters33:56

       And if- if that is the actual model of the universe, and again, I can only work ... In writing these books, I can only work from what we know now. Clearly, there's a lot of things we don't know. I'm not claiming to know anything beyond what we can know right now. But physicists, despite not knowing what time is, they know it's an emergent phenomenon. There's something more fundamental that time comes from. But they do agree on this block universe model, and in that case, there is no paradox.

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:22

       How do they all agree on that? Like, wouldn't you have to test that and come up with some sort of a- a hypothesis and then try to prove it or disprove it? Like, how-

   12. MMMichael P. Masters34:30

       You're right. I shouldn't say they all agree, 'cause there is the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, where if you went back, in that situation, it would be change. You would be changing the timeline. Would it be changing your timeline or would it be changing a different timeline, is the question.

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:44

       Hmm.

   14. MMMichael P. Masters34:45

       And how would you know ... There- there's more paradoxes with changing things than not changing things.

   15. JRJoe Rogan34:50

       Why do you confidently state that you don't think that they can go back to the dinosaur age?

   16. MMMichael P. Masters34:55

       Um, partly because ... Three different reasons. One, um, I think they need tremendously high speed in order to be able to go back into the past. Um, so basically, w- again, working from all I can work from in this time, with the limited primitive primate knowledge that I have in the year 2012 to 2025, um, I basically just started with Einstein's theory of relativity, which he published in 1905 on the electrodynamics of moving bodies. And then in 1915, he published his paper on general relativity. From that point on, almost instantly, there were solutions to his field equations that showed what the right parameters of a massively highly s- uh, energetic rotating ring or sphere or disc that you could create closed timelike curves, that you could actually orient light cones back toward the past, so you can physically go into the past. We saw this with Lense and Thirring in, like, 1917 and '18.

   17. JRJoe Rogan35:57

       Kirk Gödel.

   18. MMMichael P. Masters35:58

       Gödel universe was-

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:59

       Yeah.

   20. MMMichael P. Masters35:59

       ... not long after, in, I think, the '20s maybe. And then, importantly, in 1970s, you had Frank Tipler, uh, who showed mathematically that you can shrink that down to a disc. He actually called it a disc. That's one of the reasons I think that these are time machines, is because it has all of the parameters described by Frank Tipler. He wasn't talking about UFOs, but it ... They seemingly have the ability to jump in and out of time. They appear and disappear. And I- I'm talking too much, so I'll wrap this up in a second. But-

   21. JRJoe Rogan36:28

       You're definitely not talking too much.

   22. MMMichael P. Masters36:29

       Well, I mean, we're here to talk, but-

   23. JRJoe Rogan36:31

       Yeah.

   24. MMMichael P. Masters36:31

       ... I- I have an internal trigger-

   25. JRJoe Rogan36:32

       (laughs)

   26. MMMichael P. Masters36:32

       ... where I'm like, "Shut up, Masters."

   27. JRJoe Rogan36:34

       No, no, no.

   28. MMMichael P. Masters36:34

       "You're talking too much."

   29. JRJoe Rogan36:35

       Don't, don't listen to that trigger. Let it roll.

   30. MMMichael P. Masters36:36

       Um, so anyway, you know, if you look at the history of how we understand backward time travel, what I think they're doing is that ...... I think they're combining general relativity and special relativity, so I think they're orienting the light cones toward the past by rotating these things really, really fast. You hear that all the time. They power up, they're spinning, or at least there's some sort of flywheel on the outside that's spinning. I think that's what's allowing them to move toward the past, and then pew, they take off. So it's that high speed that I think allows them to go further into the past, so they're using... You're aware of the twins paradox, I'm sure. Um, time dilation, where you have two twins, they're the same age-
9. 38:39 – 43:32

   Spacetime bubble propulsion: extreme maneuvers, invisibility, and ‘frame-rate’ perception

   1. JRJoe Rogan38:39

      When you've been talking about going the speed of light, you're talking about not traditional propulsion, but some form of propulsion that allows you to go at insane speeds.

   2. MMMichael P. Masters38:49

      Yeah, electromagnetic is what it seems to be. Um, and, and importantly, the electromagnetic force is 10 to the 40 times more powerful than gravity. So not only do I think that's what they use to fly, I think that's what they use to manipulate spacetime. Actually, and, and Dan Burisch is... Not Dan Burisch, uh, Dan Farah. I think you just had him on-

   3. JRJoe Rogan39:09

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MMMichael P. Masters39:09

      ... too, the Age of Disclosure.

   5. JRJoe Rogan39:10

      Yes.

   6. MMMichael P. Masters39:11

      There was this really cool thing at the end where, uh, Hal Puthoff and I think Eric Davis as well were talking about this spacetime bubble, right? A really weird thing happened. We can get to that in a second, but, uh, I don't wanna jump around too much 'cause I'll lose people and myself probably. Um, but this spacetime bubble that they form around the craft I think is also indicative of the fact that they're manipulating spacetime, that they're traveling in and out of time. They use it to hide in plain sight. They manipulate the rate at which they move relative to us in their frame of reference, and they're moving fast all around us. They're dz, dz, dz, dz, dz, and they've slowed time down outside of that bubble, so everything is really, really slow to them, and they can easily evade our bullets and our missiles, but we don't see 'em because we don't have that frame rate of perception.

   7. JRJoe Rogan39:59

      Mm.

   8. MMMichael P. Masters39:59

      And, and if you slow videos do- I'm sure you've seen these all the time-

   9. JRJoe Rogan40:02

      (laughs)

   10. MMMichael P. Masters40:02

       ... where there's like a dz, and then you slow it down and you can see this saucer-shaped craft moving slowly across the sky once you slow down the frame rate. Um, but a really funny thing happened because I've, I've never actually talked about this, uh, with anyone before. Um, I owe a lot of the fact that anybody even knows who I am to Hal Puthoff. He, uh... When I first started talking about this publicly in 2018, and then I published my book in 2019, Identified Flying Objects, he, um, I guess reached out to the head of MUFON at the time, who was putting together the 50th anniversary MUFON event, and was like, "Hey, you should have this Mike Masters guy come talk." And I found that out from the head of MUFON. He's like, "Hey, just so you know, Hal Puthoff, of all people, recommended I contact you." I had no idea who that is, so I get on the internet and I Google Hal Puthoff. Um, he also put Jesse Michaels, mutual friend, uh, in touch with me after... I think he did an interview with him and Weinstein. Uh, I forget his name.

   11. JRJoe Rogan41:06

       Eric?

   12. MMMichael P. Masters41:06

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan41:07

       Yeah.

   14. MMMichael P. Masters41:07

       Yeah, so he did, uh, an interview with those two. I guess Hal was like, "Hey, you should reach out to Mike Masters," and he did, and we talked and we've done stuff together. But what was cool is that at the end of that Age of Disclosure film, when he's talking about the spacetime bubble, I thought back to after my first book came out and I was contacted by someone who claimed to be an ex-intelligence person, who explained that exact same thing to me back in 2019. That these things aren't doing 10,000 G maneuvers that would crush anything inside. To them, in their frame of reference, what they feel is completely different than what we see, because in that spacetime bubble, they can be moving at 50,000 miles an hour, do a right-hand turn, and it would splatter anything inside 'cause of the G-forces. That's what we see on the outside, but in that spacetime bubble, they probably feel one, two Gs at the most. So I started thinking, man, was that Hal? Did Hal reach out to me with like a different email address and say, "Hey, just so you know, this is how these things are happening, this is how they're able to do it"? And I was a dumbass. I still am a dumbass, but I was an extra big dumbass back then, and I was like, "Oh, cool. Thanks, man." You know, like, a, a story went viral about my books, and Fox News picked it up, and space.com. And so I was going through a bunch of emails. They recognized I wasn't getting what they were saying, I was not picking up what they were putting down, and they were like, "No, this is important." Said it again, and then it clicked. I was like, "Oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense."

   15. JRJoe Rogan42:42

       So-

   16. MMMichael P. Masters42:42

       They're manipulating the rate at which time passes in this bubble around the craft, and we see something completely different.

   17. JRJoe Rogan42:48

       So when we're seeing this, we are imagining what we can do.... and we're sort of saying, "Well, what would be an advanced version of what we can do?" And what this technology is, is something that's levels of magnitude beyond even our theoretical, like, i- i- any sort of idea that we have currently about, you know, potential future timelines of technology.

   18. MMMichael P. Masters43:14

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan43:14

       Th- there's no one talking about gravity bubbles that allow you to instantaneously traverse immense gaps in the universe.

   20. MMMichael P. Masters43:24

       Well, they might be talking about it behind closed doors at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

   21. JRJoe Rogan43:28

       Right.

   22. MMMichael P. Masters43:28

       And have been for 70 years-

   23. JRJoe Rogan43:30

       Yeah, that's the problem.

   24. MMMichael P. Masters43:32

       ... give or take.

10. 43:32 – 53:17

    Reverse engineering, Bob Lazar, and stovepiped black programs

    1. JRJoe Rogan43:32

       That's the real problem with disclosure. Like, how, how much progress could we have made if they had opened up all this stuff? And, I me- and you got to imagine, if you were an intelligent life form from another planet ... You know, Diana Pasolka talked about, uh, her and Garry Nolan talked about how they refer to some of these things as donations.

    2. MMMichael P. Masters43:51

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan43:52

       They don't think of them as crashed vehicles, because some of them are not crashed. They're completely intact, and-

    4. MMMichael P. Masters43:58

       I think David Grusch said that too, didn't he?

    5. JRJoe Rogan44:00

       Yeah, I believe he did.

    6. MMMichael P. Masters44:01

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan44:01

       And even, you know, uh, Lazar, when, when he was talking about it, he, you know, he-

    8. MMMichael P. Masters44:06

       Yeah, the sports model.

    9. JRJoe Rogan44:08

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MMMichael P. Masters44:08

        Wasn't that fully intact too?

    11. JRJoe Rogan44:09

        Fully intact. Yeah.

    12. MMMichael P. Masters44:10

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan44:10

        Fully intact and operational, and apparently they flew it around.

    14. MMMichael P. Masters44:13

        No kidding?

    15. JRJoe Rogan44:13

        Yeah.

    16. MMMichael P. Masters44:14

        That'd be fun.

    17. JRJoe Rogan44:14

        Well, that was one of the reasons ... You know the whole story how he got caught? It's a really crazy story. So, uh, he used to work at Los Alamos. He was a propulsions expert. The guy put a jet engine on the back of a Honda.

    18. MMMichael P. Masters44:25

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan44:25

        It was a real freak.

    20. MMMichael P. Masters44:27

        (laughs) Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan44:27

        You know, he made a hydrogen Corvette in like the 1990s.

    22. MMMichael P. Masters44:30

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan44:30

        He was a nutty dude.

    24. MMMichael P. Masters44:31

        Clearly an engineer.

    25. JRJoe Rogan44:32

        Yes.

    26. MMMichael P. Masters44:32

        That part checks out.

    27. JRJoe Rogan44:33

        Um, so he, uh, gets this job on Area S4 and, um, goes there. And this is all documented in Jeremy Corbell's, uh, excellent movie, uh, Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers. So, he goes there and sees this thing and it's got a American flag sticker on it. And, you know, they, they basically say, "Tell us how it works." And he's like, "Oh, this is ours," 'cause he sees it has a sticker on it.

    28. MMMichael P. Masters44:59

        Hmm.

    29. JRJoe Rogan44:59

        And then he realizes this is made out of some completely unknown alloy. There's no seams in it. It seems to be 3D printed. There's no controls inside of it. It's designed for something that's three feet tall. It's all very fucking weird.

    30. MMMichael P. Masters45:12

        Yeah.
11. 53:17 – 1:11:06

    Stigma operations, credible military sightings, and the ‘post‑2017’ shift

    1. MMMichael P. Masters53:17

       Because I believe the people who say the same thing over and over. There's patterns that we can extract from people's testaments who have had these close encounters, and that's one unfortunate thing that's happening right now, is we're talking about the pilots, talking about police. But people have been seeing these forever, but they did such a good job manufacturing the stigma around it with Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book, to discount these people, to make them seem in- insane, you know? These-

    2. JRJoe Rogan53:43

       That is one of the main points of evidence that I would point to that there is something. When people think there isn't something, I'm just like, "You should really pay attention to what they were trying to do during Project Blue Book."

    3. MMMichael P. Masters53:53

       Yeah.

    4. JRJoe Rogan53:54

       Because one of the m-... I have a buddy of mine, my friend, Steve Graham. Shout out to Steve. When he was a boy, he was living in New York, uh, upstate New York, and, um, he filmed this red orb that was flying across the sky, and he took some photographs of it. And, um, they called someone, some officials somewhere. I don't remember. He was, he was very young. And, um, they said, "We are gonna analyze the photos, and then we'll bring them back to you." And, um, they never returned the photographs.

    5. MMMichael P. Masters54:26

       Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan54:26

       When he called, they said, "No agents..." Uh, "There's no record of any agents coming to visit you. We don't know what to tell you."

    7. MMMichael P. Masters54:32

       Hmm.

    8. JRJoe Rogan54:32

       So they just took his photos and that was it. But he said whatever it was, you know, he was young. I believe he was 10 or 11, a- and he said whatever it was was really weird. He goes, "It was this red orb that was flying through the sky." Um, it wasn't a spacecraft, it wasn't a sun, it wasn't a meteor. It, it looked like it was moving purposely and under control.

    9. MMMichael P. Masters54:54

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan54:54

        And, um, it was there long enough for him to take a Polaroid of it.

    11. MMMichael P. Masters54:59

        Hmm.

    12. JRJoe Rogan55:00

        Yeah. And, um, they just completely el- erased any memory of it.

    13. MMMichael P. Masters55:07

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan55:07

        Or any- any evidence of it. When he called, like I said, they said, "There... No agents visited you." Whatever the agent's name or there's no agents by that name.

    15. MMMichael P. Masters55:16

        Yeah. That's kind of the status quo.

    16. JRJoe Rogan55:18

        Yeah. Well, they try to make you look like a fool.

    17. MMMichael P. Masters55:20

        (coughs) Absolutely. And that, that was intentional. Like, the stated mission of Project Grudge was to debunk these things, come up with conventional explanations, and make people seem like idiots.

    18. JRJoe Rogan55:29

        Right. Not... It wasn't to investigate.

    19. MMMichael P. Masters55:32

        Even scientists and... No, not at all.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:33

        It c-... The, the purpose wasn't, "Let's get to the bottom of this. Find out is this Russia? Is Russia doing this?"

    21. MMMichael P. Masters55:38

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JRJoe Rogan55:38

        That was not the purpose. The purpose was make these people look like fools.

    23. MMMichael P. Masters55:41

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan55:41

        You only do that if you know something that other people don't.

    25. MMMichael P. Masters55:44

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan55:45

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    27. MMMichael P. Masters56:28

        And it worked.

    28. JRJoe Rogan56:29

        Yeah.

    29. MMMichael P. Masters56:29

        They did a damn good job at it because we still feel like fools talking about this.

    30. JRJoe Rogan56:33

        Oh, yeah.
12. 1:11:06 – 1:32:24

    Cryptoterrestrials and underwater bases: oceans, Catalina, Baltic anomaly, and transmedium craft

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:11:06

       What do you think of, um, when people start theorizing about some sort of a breakaway civilization that lives under the ocean?

    2. MMMichael P. Masters1:11:17

       Yeah. So, we actually published a paper about that last June, about the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis. (laughs) You mentioned it on your show in a really funny way, 'cause it went viral internationally. It was absolutely insane, the impact this thing had. Um, like I, I had to go on Fox & Friends one morning to talk about it, and then the next day I did-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:11:38

       What, what made it go viral? What was the, uh...

    4. MMMichael P. Masters1:11:40

       Well, 'cause I published it with two guys from Harvard, uh, who was a coauthor on the paper, and so it's clickbait. It's "Harvard researchers say dinosaurs are aliens and they live among you." So stuff like that.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:11:52

       Oh. (laughs)

    6. MMMichael P. Masters1:11:53

       And it worked 'cause (laughs) it, it, I, I, I, yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:11:56

       Well it makes you w- go, "What?"

    8. MMMichael P. Masters1:11:58

       Your, yours was the funniest one, uh, you guys pulled it up on your screen and you were like, "Man, these, these Harvard researchers must've snuck in where they're doing the psilocybin experiments and ate all the mushrooms." (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:12:11

       (laughs)

    10. MMMichael P. Masters1:12:11

        Uh, that cracked me up. Uh, and, uh, I don't think we did. I, I don't remember if we did. I don't think we did. But it definitely had elements of, like, "These guys ate a lot of mushrooms." Uh, which was part of why it went viral. But there were some really solid arguments in there. And the title of the paper was Scientific Openness to the Cryptoterrestrial Idea. That's all we were advocating for. And we listed four main ways in which this cry- te- cryptoterrestrial idea could happen, and the fourth one is what really got clickbait-y 'cause we were like, "Maybe there was a breakaway civilization," that's the cryptoterrestrial idea, but maybe an advanced reptile... Dinosaurs didn't go extinct, and this was, you know, we don't think this actually happened but we're just putting out arguments for what this idea could be. And so yeah, they took that and put, like, dinosaurs at keyboards (tapping) and stuff like that. But, but one of them is time travelers, and it would make sense if you were in the future, instead of jumping back through time in order to study people in a specific time, you set up a base on the far side of the moon, where up until the '60s, '70s we wouldn't know they were there. Set up a base under the oceans, and this would go for the extraterrestrial idea too. Instead of traversing the vast swaths of space-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:13:26

        Right.

    12. MMMichael P. Masters1:13:26

        ... come here, set up under the oceans where we're not gonna find you-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:13:30

        Right.

    14. MMMichael P. Masters1:13:30

        ... Antarctica.... far side of the moon and then you can do everything here locally, instead of having to jump across space, extraterrestrial, or jump across time, extratempestrial.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:13:40

        Well, it also explains some of the very strange ways that they've observed tr- crafts moving under the water.

    16. MMMichael P. Masters1:13:47

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:13:47

        Like they've obs- observed crafts moving under the water at 500 knots-

    18. MMMichael P. Masters1:13:51

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:13:51

        ... that are as big as a football field. And apparently, there's video of these things. Apparently, there's... you know, the Navy has-

    20. MMMichael P. Masters1:13:58

        I've heard that too, yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:13:59

        ... something that they filmed that is as big as a football field. It was going essentially 500 miles an hour underwater without any ripples, not disturbing the water at all, not creating a wake.

    22. MMMichael P. Masters1:14:09

        And then moving right out of them-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:14:10

        Yeah.

    24. MMMichael P. Masters1:14:10

        ... in the transmedium capacity.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:14:12

        Mm-hmm, yeah. Well, you know, when you think about how little explola- explor- excuse me, exploration, we've done to the bottom of the ocean, it's, we know more about the moon than we do about the surface of the, the actual bottom of the ocean.

    26. MMMichael P. Masters1:14:26

        Yeah. Yeah, it would be a great place to hide out. Um, and again, you know, the ability to move in and out of air, water, space, upper atmosphere, with no disturbances, uh, the transmedium capabilities, that whole warp space-time bubble around them would help explain that too. That they're not experiencing the water.

Episode duration: 2:48:43