Joe Rogan Experience #2428 - Michael P. Masters

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Michael P. Masters 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)

Joe Rogan 0:13 Mm.

Michael P. Masters 0:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Disclosure Day, very interesting.

Michael P. Masters 0:19 Yeah, I'm excited for that.

Joe Rogan 0:21 All right, we're rolling?

Narrator 0:21 Yeah, you got the-

Joe Rogan 0:22 Yeah, he was always, like, way ahead of the curve when it comes to the whole UAP/UFO stuff. You know, with Close Encounters of the Th- Third Kind, he had that French scientist that was essentially modeled after- Jacques Vallée. ... Jacques Vallée.

Michael P. Masters 0:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:36 He's always been ... I, I, I would love to talk to him. I wonder how much he knows. (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 0:40 Is that an accident?

Joe Rogan 0:41 It sounds like it.

Michael P. Masters 0:41 Was he, uh, fed some information? Was he a part of disclosure the whole time? That's what I've always wondered.

Joe Rogan 0:48 I mean, what does that mean, right? 'Cause there hasn't really been disclosure.

Michael P. Masters 0:51 No. But there has to be a slow process too, right?

Joe Rogan 0:54 You think so?

Michael P. Masters 0:55 I don't think ... I mean, the whole idea is that they're just sort of normalizing it, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 1:01 Uh, neurolinguistic programming they call it, where you're slowly getting people accustomed to these ideas. Like, the, the aspects of Close Encounters, for instance, where you have the radiation burns on the guy's face. You have a time travel component, where these, uh, World War II soldiers get out of the craft-

Joe Rogan 1:18 Right.

Michael P. Masters 1:18 ... with the little beings and the bigger being and, I mean, uh, just, just seeding, seeding our culture with those little bits of information that might help later on down the road.

Joe Rogan 1:26 God, that was, like, in the '70s, wasn't it? Like, when was Close Encounters?

Michael P. Masters 1:29 Uh, yeah, I think it was.

Joe Rogan 1:31 Was it the '70s?

Michael P. Masters 1:32 Late '70s, early '80s, maybe. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:35 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 1:35 Either way, I mean, uh, like, a lot of stuff he's done ... Like, I, I rewatched the ... God, what was it? Jeff Bridges, Starman, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:44 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 1:44 There's a lot of elements of Disclosure in that, too. Like, I think there's just ... I don't know. I mean, obviously we don't know who's pulling the strings. We don't know what's going on. We don't know who's in charge. But it does make sense that if there is this thing that they know about, that we're supposed to know about, leak it out. Do it slowly. Get in our culture. Get it in our, our, our media in different ways, you know?

Joe Rogan 2:05 Do you know the Hal Puthoff story, right, with George Bush? Do you know the story where they were talking about-

Michael P. Masters 2:10 I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 2:10 Okay. Hal talked about it on my podcast, but he also talked about it in the Age of Disclosure documentary, where they brought in him and a bunch of different prominent thinkers.

Michael P. Masters 2:20 I do know. Yeah, I watched that episode.

Joe Rogan 2:21 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 2:21 And I watched, um, the docu too.

Joe Rogan 2:23 So to people that don't know, I'll just explain it.

Michael P. Masters 2:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:25 So they, they brought in him and a bunch of other prominent thinkers, and they had ... They, they sat them down and said, "Essentially, we have recovered crashed UFOs. We have biological remains of these creatures. Uh, we are considering releasing it to the public, and we wanna make an assessment of what are the pros and what are the cons. So we want to assign a numerical value that, you know, you're estimating what kind of an impact it would be on, uh, government, finances-"

Michael P. Masters 2:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:55 "... religion, et cetera."

Michael P. Masters 2:57 About whether they should do it, basically, right? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:58 Right, whether or not they should release this information. And all of the people that were brought in came to the agreement that there was more con than there were pro-

Michael P. Masters 3:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:07 ... and that formed their decision to not release it.

Michael P. Masters 3:10 And didn't he say at first, like, he was pro-disclosure? He was like, "Of course we should do this," and then after the conversation, he switched teams and decided-

Joe Rogan 3:17 Yeah, I don't know about that. Uh, maybe, perhaps. I mean-

Michael P. Masters 3:20 I thought he said that he, he went into it thinking, "Well yeah, obviously we should do this," and then sort of was convinced otherwise after the conversation unfolded.

Joe Rogan 3:28 Yeah, how could you be convinced? Like, whose decision should it be? S- if some people know, everyone should know.

Michael P. Masters 3:34 Exactly. Yeah, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 3:34 It's a humanity decision. It's ... I don't think it should be-

Michael P. Masters 3:37 It is, and I think-

Joe Rogan 3:37 ... in anybody's han- in anybody's hands-

Michael P. Masters 3:39 No.

Joe Rogan 3:40 ... to decide whether or not this information gets distributed.

Michael P. Masters 3:43 And the implications too, if they have zero-point energy. Like how would that solve the problems that we face today?

Joe Rogan 3:49 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 3:49 There's so many ramifications of it that ... Yeah, who, whose decision is it, and why has it been kept from us? I, I don't, I don't buy that whole, like, Orson Wells 1938 everybody would freak out bullshit. I don't, I, I don't think that's the case, at least not anymore. There's gotta be something more to it than that.

Joe Rogan 4:06 It would certainly have ... I don't know if they factored this in, but a uniting element. Like, you remember the Reagan speech where he gave-

Michael P. Masters 4:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:13 ... in front of the United Nations, where he said, "Imagine how united we would be, we'd forget our differences, if we were faced with an alien threat from another world."

Michael P. Masters 4:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:20 I mean, just knowing that we are all uni- ... I mean, just ... We ... You ... How old are you?

Michael P. Masters 4:27 Uh, 47.

Joe Rogan 4:28 Okay, so you remember September 11th.

Michael P. Masters 4:30 Mm-hmm, very well.

Joe Rogan 4:31 One of, one of the things that happened after September 11th was there was ... It was a horrible tragedy, but there was a beautiful result temporarily-

Michael P. Masters 4:39 Mm-hmm. That's right.

Joe Rogan 4:39 ... where everybody was reuni- ... R- r- really united, like really united. Like, there was American flags in everybody's car in Los Angeles, you know? Like, the most ridiculous, progressive, sort of, kind of-

Michael P. Masters 4:49 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 4:50 ... you know, kinda fucked up place. But everybody became patriotic.

Michael P. Masters 4:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:55 In, in New York, everyone was friendly. I mean, people were smiling and, and saying hi to each other on the streets. We had all decided that we were together, and that we were, were faced with a real threat and that we had to be united. And-

Michael P. Masters 5:06 I remember it well, yeah. You're right. And then, not to get too weird too fast here, but if there are aspects of sort of an all-encompassing consciousness that unites us associated with the UFO phenomenon too, if we recognize that we are just fingerprints on the same hand, we're all iterations of the same overarching consciousness, if ... Seemingly there is a part of that in the UFO phenomenon.

Joe Rogan 5:31 Yeah, seemingly.

Michael P. Masters 5:32 So how would that unite us as well, even beyond the threat from outside? Like, if we did start to understand that we're all part of the same sort of cosmic community. Um, sounds kinda weird to say that, but-

Joe Rogan 5:44 It does sound weird. But have, have you seen the Apple show Pluribus?

Michael P. Masters 5:48 No, it comes up a lot. Sh- worth watching?

Joe Rogan 5:50 It's really good.

Michael P. Masters 5:51 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 5:51 It's really good. It's very, very original, very unique. But that is essentially what happens, and it has a negative aspect to it.

Michael P. Masters 5:58 Oh? How so?

Joe Rogan 5:58 There's a virus. I don't wanna give away too much of it-

Michael P. Masters 6:00 Oh, yeah, true.

Joe Rogan 6:01 ... for people that wanna watch the show, 'cause it's a really good show. But there's a virus that ... They get a signal from, uh, another world, and they figure out what this signal is. And, uh, through this lab work, they re- reveal that this signal is some sort of the encoding-... of a specific virus. They work on this specific virus, it spreads and the entire planet becomes one consciousness-

Michael P. Masters 6:29 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:30 ... except for a small number of people.

Michael P. Masters 6:32 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 6:33 It's a weird show. It's a really good show.

Michael P. Masters 6:35 That's cool then.

Joe Rogan 6:35 I'm gonna, I'm gonna... I don't want to explain any more of it like that-

Michael P. Masters 6:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:37 ... without any spoiler alerts, but it's fucking great. But, it's strange. It's like, "Wouldn't that be better?" There's no crime, there's no this, there's no that-

Michael P. Masters 6:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:45 ... but then it reveals all the problems that come along with that.

Michael P. Masters 6:48 Wow. Yeah. I'm gonna have to watch that as a counterpoint if anything else, 'cause it, it makes sense to me that if everyone's kind of united as one-

Joe Rogan 6:56 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 6:57 ... uh, super organism of sorts, but-

Joe Rogan 7:00 But you lose all individuality.

Michael P. Masters 7:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:02 You lose all the fun parts about being an imperfect person-

Michael P. Masters 7:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:05 ... because we are an imperfect species, but that's also what makes great art. That's what makes-

Michael P. Masters 7:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:10 ... great music. It's what-

Michael P. Masters 7:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:11 ... makes great fun.

Michael P. Masters 7:12 Most creative people have the most trauma in their past.

Joe Rogan 7:15 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 7:16 From, from what I've seen.

Joe Rogan 7:17 And if you have zero trauma, you probably have sucky art. (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 7:22 (laughs) Yeah. It's just stick figures and shit. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:24 I mean, I wonder why would be, even if they would have a need for it. I mean-

Michael P. Masters 7:28 No.

Joe Rogan 7:28 ... it's artist like this-

Michael P. Masters 7:29 'Cause it's an expression. It's getting your angry out, you know?

Joe Rogan 7:31 Right. Or S- your angst, or your anxiety-

Michael P. Masters 7:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:34 ... or depression. Whatever it is. You're, you're getting something out.

Michael P. Masters 7:37 I was, I was telling my son that the other day. Avi's his name. He's... You know, it's hard being in these bodies, especially going through puberty. You know, you're just like-

Joe Rogan 7:44 Hmm.

Michael P. Masters 7:44 ... "What is this thing I'm carrying, this little meat suit?" You know? And, and I was like, "Man, I've, I was the same way. Still am the same way." And I, I picked up instruments. I started painting. I learned to play every sport I could physically play. Like, there's ways to get that out, you know? But, it seems like a lot of that does come from just the anxiety and the angst-

Joe Rogan 8:04 Sure.

Michael P. Masters 8:04 ... and, and you know, you're growing into yourself. You're starting to get the feels. You know, you look at women differently-

Joe Rogan 8:09 Hmm.

Michael P. Masters 8:09 ... and it's like, "What do I do with this?"

Joe Rogan 8:12 Well, it re-changes... It, it rewires the entire way you view the world.

Michael P. Masters 8:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:17 And meanwhile, your body's physically changing and growing. You're like, "What am I gonna look like eventually?"

Michael P. Masters 8:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:22 "This is weird."

Michael P. Masters 8:23 It's so weird. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:25 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 8:25 You know, there's actually this, uh... In a small island in the Pacific, they have this weird, um, characteristic where they start out as females. Ev- everybody does. We all start out as females in utero, and then maleness is imposed on the developing fetus. But they, they don't until puberty, 'cause they, they're not sensitive to dihydrotestosterone, the precursor to testosterone. So, they grow up their entire life as girls, and then at puberty they turn into a boy.

Joe Rogan 8:51 So, they get raised as girls?

Michael P. Masters 8:53 They are girls. They're physically girls.

Joe Rogan 8:54 But they have penises?

Michael P. Masters 8:55 Not yet. Nope.

Joe Rogan 8:56 What?

Michael P. Masters 8:57 The clitoris-

Joe Rogan 8:57 This is a planet?

Michael P. Masters 8:58 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:58 I mean, this is-

Michael P. Masters 8:59 This is an island.

Joe Rogan 9:00 ... what is this?

Michael P. Masters 9:00 It's an island in the South Pacific. It's called pseudohermaphroditism. It's the weir-

Joe Rogan 9:04 What?

Michael P. Masters 9:04 I know. I learned about this in grad school when I was like-

Joe Rogan 9:06 So, what do they look like before they-

Michael P. Masters 9:07 They look like girls.

Joe Rogan 9:08 What?

Michael P. Masters 9:09 Exactly like girls. They are girls, and then the ovaries descend as testicles and the clitoris grows out into a penis.

Joe Rogan 9:15 What?

Michael P. Masters 9:16 So, you think puberty's hard enough already, these people turn into the opposite sex at age, like, 12 or 13. It's wild, man.

Joe Rogan 9:23 So, is this a bizarre genetic anomaly? Is it something to do with the-

Michael P. Masters 9:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:26 ... environment?

Michael P. Masters 9:26 So, a lot of times on islands you get, like, really strange characteristics of people because of the isolation that... And those characteristics get selected just through genetic drift alone, 'cause it's a small population. So, just probably one person had this really weird trait where they're insensitive to dihydrotestosterone, and then it spread throughout more of the population.

Joe Rogan 9:46 Wow.

Michael P. Masters 9:46 It doesn't do anything. It's not something natural selection would select against. It's just weird as shit.

Joe Rogan 9:51 W- what is the name of this island?

Michael P. Masters 9:53 Uh, I don't remember the name of the island. But the condition's called, um- Find it?

Narrator 9:57 I think it's Malo Island in Vanuatu or some-

Michael P. Masters 9:59 That sound... Oh, yeah. Vanu-

Joe Rogan 10:00 How many people were on that island?

Narrator 10:02 Uh, it says there's a population in 1979 of 2,300 people.

Michael P. Masters 10:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:06 Wow.

Michael P. Masters 10:06 And think historically, like-

Narrator 10:08 Are there two different kinds of people there or something? It says two-

Joe Rogan 10:09 Two different kinds of people?

Narrator 10:11 ... two cultural groups.

Michael P. Masters 10:12 Isn't that wild though, man?

Joe Rogan 10:14 Whoa.

Michael P. Masters 10:14 I remember hearing about that in grad school at Ohio State, and I was just like, "I'm sorry, what?" (laughs) Like, "What?"

Joe Rogan 10:18 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 10:18 So strange.

Joe Rogan 10:19 Did you just say? I'm sure you've seen those people, the ostrich feet people in Africa.

Michael P. Masters 10:23 Huh-uh.

Joe Rogan 10:24 It's a very strange genetic anomaly where they don't grow toes. They essentially have two very wide appendages.

Michael P. Masters 10:32 Weird.

Joe Rogan 10:33 Yeah. They look, it looks like an, like a, like a weird bird foot.

Michael P. Masters 10:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:38 It's very strange. But a bunch of people in this particular tribe share this trait.

Michael P. Masters 10:43 Is there any advantage or it's just... It's like this-

Narrator 10:45 Now it's a good question.

Michael P. Masters 10:45 ... where it just kinda happened and-

Joe Rogan 10:47 Yeah, I don't know.

Michael P. Masters 10:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:48 I don't know. I mean, I don't know what advantage there would be. Maybe it's, it's-

Michael P. Masters 10:52 Maybe it's really-

Joe Rogan 10:53 ... maybe it-

Michael P. Masters 10:53 ... sexy to them. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:55 (laughs) Just like, maybe you could move better with it. I don't know. It's, it's, it doesn't seem-

Michael P. Masters 10:58 That's what they look like.

Joe Rogan 10:59 Whoa!

Michael P. Masters 10:59 Yeah. I don't know how I haven't seen that. That's wild.

Joe Rogan 11:02 I know. Isn't that crazy?

Michael P. Masters 11:03 I mean, it is kinda sexy.

Joe Rogan 11:05 Um, if that's what you're into, dog.

Michael P. Masters 11:07 (laughs) How long- I've never been a feet guy actually.

Joe Rogan 11:08 I wonder how long that's been going on for. Vadoma.

Michael P. Masters 11:12 See, that seems like-

Joe Rogan 11:13 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 11:13 ... more of a, like a defect that just worked toward fixity in the population. Maybe not fixity-

Joe Rogan 11:19 No, it just makes you wonder. Like, why don't we... It's in Zimbabwe apparently.

Michael P. Masters 11:23 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 11:23 Why don't we all have that? You know, like what is, what is the reason why we have all these toes, that it's called electrodactyl.

Michael P. Masters 11:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:33 Dac- el- electrodactyly.

Michael P. Masters 11:36 I mean, historically, pre-historically, evolutionarily I should say, if you did have something like that and you were a hunter-gatherer, you're kinda boned. You know, you're not gonna be able to run after gazelles and-

Joe Rogan 11:46 I don't know. Maybe you can. So, it says here-

Michael P. Masters 11:49 Th- they look-

Joe Rogan 11:49 ... their feet are well adapted to the Zimbabzees'... Oh, Zambezi, not Zimbabwe. Zambezi Valley's rough terrain allowing them to move-

Michael P. Masters 11:58 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:58 ... quickly and efficiently through the landscape.

Michael P. Masters 12:00 All right. I take it back. I guess it does have an advantage-

Joe Rogan 12:02 Well, it kinda makes sense, right? Because what, what it's saying is that their, their bones are fused. If you scroll up it'll say, "A condition affecting an ostrich-footed tribe. A genetic mutation passed down through generations causes the bones in the feet to fuse, resulting in a claw-like structure with two large toes." Toes are very vulnerable. I don't know if you've ever-

Michael P. Masters 12:20 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:20 ... broken a toe, but it's a weird-

Michael P. Masters 12:21 I broke one an hour before I got on the plane to come here.

Joe Rogan 12:23 Really?

Michael P. Masters 12:24 If you could see my left foot.

Joe Rogan 12:25 Oh, that's hilarious.

Michael P. Masters 12:26 That's ridiculous. Like the whole-

Joe Rogan 12:27 Oh.

Michael P. Masters 12:27 ... thing is just purple.

Joe Rogan 12:28 Yeah. They're so small.

Michael P. Masters 12:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:30 Like my pinky toe-

Michael P. Masters 12:31 They're so tiny.

Joe Rogan 12:31 I was messing around with my pinky toe the other day 'cause I, I have to trim my toenails, right? And the pinky toe nail is, is like barely a nail. It's so tiny. And I'm like, "God, this little thing is so vulnerable and it has to support my entire body weight or part of my entire body weight."

Michael P. Masters 12:46 Yeah. They're so dumb.

Joe Rogan 12:48 Oh, yeah.

Michael P. Masters 12:48 Uh, you can see that? It's all, like-

Joe Rogan 12:50 Your foot's jacked.

Michael P. Masters 12:50 Yeah, dude. That was, like, right before I was coming down here. I'm like, "You gotta be kidding me."

Joe Rogan 12:54 Ouch.

Michael P. Masters 12:54 "What are the odds of that?"

Joe Rogan 12:56 That sucks. Yeah. Well, I've broken a bunch of toes. It's, it's very, very annoying.

Michael P. Masters 12:59 It's so annoying.

Joe Rogan 13:00 You... And you would imagine if you had two giant fucking elbow bones down there instead of these-

Michael P. Masters 13:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:05 ... bitchy-ass little toesies.

Michael P. Masters 13:07 I know. Maybe that's why they did it. Maybe that's what they got going on.

Joe Rogan 13:10 Kinda makes sense that that would be an a- adaptation.

Michael P. Masters 13:12 Invincible feet.

Joe Rogan 13:14 Yeah. Well, w- you know, we're, we're so vulnerable. We're... And that's one of the weirder things. Like, so first, we shou- we get into what you do, uh, 'cause you have, uh, you have a very interesting theory. Tell everybody what your background is, first of all.

Michael P. Masters 13:28 Yeah. All right. That does seem like a good place to start. Um, my background is in anthropology and biological anthropology. Um, my research mostly focuses on evolutionary anatomy, biomedicine. I've done some archeology in various places around the world and Montana. But the reason I'm here, I assume, 'cause (laughs) according to my friend Matt, we were, uh, we were butchering a, a mule deer, I think, I shot. And I was like, "Yeah, I gotta go to this conference." And I was like, "Do you wanna know what it's about?" He's like, "Nobody gives a shit about what you do other than UFOs, man." (laughs) And I was like, "Dammit, he's right."

Joe Rogan 14:04 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 14:04 Like, I did actually use to do a lot of what I thought was cool stuff. But no, the, the main thing is that I've, I've become known for advocating for this idea that UFOs, uh, and the aliens are actually our time-traveling future human descendants. I wouldn't even say as opposed to extraterrestrials 'cause I do think that's a component too. I oftentimes get pigeonholed. People are like, "Oh, you just think they're all time-travelers." I don't. I actually say this all the time, but it doesn't matter. Uh, I do think there's a lot going on. But, but my background and, and the reason I approach this question this way is because there's a lot of characteristics of these aliens that look so hominin. They look just like us. And specifically what we'd expect to see in our hominin future if the same evolutionary trends continue into the future. So, I kinda just tie those things together. And even the, the saucer-shaped crafts seemingly are time machines themselves, so that's kind of the Cliffs Notes version.

Joe Rogan 15:02 Well, it's a theory that a lot of people have independently sort of come to, right?

Michael P. Masters 15:07 Yeah, especially recently.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Y- and the, the concept of w- we... Just if you just think about ancient man. I was watching this, uh, documentary on Neanderthals last night about this one, uh, intact Neanderthal, uh, skeleton that they found that was... It had, uh, sort of been, uh, it, it... He had died in a cave and, you know, there's stalagmites. Is it stalactites or mites? How do you say it?

Michael P. Masters 15:32 Tites are up, mites are down.

Joe Rogan 15:34 So, he was essentially mineralized.

Michael P. Masters 15:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:36 There was stuff all over the body, and it took a long time for them to break this body.

Michael P. Masters 15:40 I think I saw that.

Joe Rogan 15:41 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 15:41 Was that on Netflix?

Joe Rogan 15:43 No. Well, I was watching it on YouTube. Maybe it originally was-

Michael P. Masters 15:45 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 15:45 ... on Netflix. But it was just documenting how strange this, this body was that they had found, but it was immensely strong, like, much stronger than us. One of the interesting things was that their visual cortex, um, the, the, the part of the brain that would process vi- imagery was larger than ours.

Michael P. Masters 16:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:05 10 to 20% larger.

Michael P. Masters 16:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:07 And that this... So, these things probably had better eyesight than us. Perhaps even were able to see at night. And that this was a bigger, stronger version of a human being. Like, much more durable than what we are, modern, 2025 Homo sapiens.

Michael P. Masters 16:21 Yep.

Joe Rogan 16:22 If you just look... Yeah, that's it. So, that's one of them.

Michael P. Masters 16:25 Yeah, that one's cool. Neither human nor Neanderthal.

Joe Rogan 16:28 Oh, really?

Michael P. Masters 16:29 This is, uh, published in August.

Joe Rogan 16:31 Is this the sa- This might not be the same one.

Michael P. Masters 16:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:33 This is maybe a different one. That's a weird one because what's that fucking thing on its head?

Michael P. Masters 16:37 That's what it says. It's a stalactite growing out of it or something.

Joe Rogan 16:40 Wow. In a weird form. Weird.

Michael P. Masters 16:42 Yeah, it's like a unicorn Neanderthal.

Joe Rogan 16:44 Yeah, like a crest.

Michael P. Masters 16:45 They do, uh, they do have a sagittal ridge.

Joe Rogan 16:48 Yes.

Michael P. Masters 16:49 Um, homo, homo erectus had one. We- there's an offshoot, uh, in our hominin lineage called, uh, Paranthropus or robust australopithecines and they had a full-on, like, gorilla-style-

Joe Rogan 17:00 Really?

Michael P. Masters 17:00 ... sagittal ridge. Yeah, 'cause they were vegetarians so they just chewed all day.

Joe Rogan 17:03 Right. So, they had massive muscles-

Michael P. Masters 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:05 ... to chew.

Michael P. Masters 17:05 Yeah, their whole face is huge.

Joe Rogan 17:07 Wow.

Michael P. Masters 17:08 Neanderthals, uh, kinda... I mean, they were just big.

Joe Rogan 17:11 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 17:11 It's just a robusticity thing, but there is, uh, evidence from Shanidar Cave in, uh, Iraq, where they were using their teeth as tools. We think they were, like, tanning hides. They were holding the hide in their mouth and then, like, scraping all the nasty bits off.

Joe Rogan 17:24 Oh.

Michael P. Masters 17:25 And you can see that in the tooth wear. So, yeah, they were, they were pretty badass. They were the first... Uh, I don't know, I think this is cool, but, uh, a lot of people think I'm a nerd too.

Joe Rogan 17:34 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 17:34 Um, they were the first to, to use the flake. Like, for 2.8 million years we just hit a piece of rock and were like, "Oh, this is a cool tool." But then they figured out, uh, that if you hit the rock in just the right way, the piece that falls off makes an even better tool. Until it goes, like, 2.5-

Joe Rogan 17:51 Like this.

Michael P. Masters 17:52 Yes, exactly.

Joe Rogan 17:53 You make an arrowhead.

Michael P. Masters 17:53 And from that point on, like, we- I, I got to work at a place called Chapineau, uh, uh, Jonzac in Southern France for a summer, and it was a Neanderthal site.And we found these, actually it's pretty funny, 'cause when we first got there, they- these, these tools called MTA hand axes, Mousterian and Acheulean tradition hand axes, and there were only eight found in all of Europe. And they said, "If you guys find one of these, we'll buy you all the beer and all the cognac you can drink." So we're in the Cognac region of France. And we found one, like, the fourth or fifth day. We went on to find seven more over the course of that week. We doubled the number of these things in existence-

Joe Rogan 18:29 Wow.

Michael P. Masters 18:29 ... in all of Europe. And they were not lying. They bought us (laughs) so many damn beers.

Joe Rogan 18:35 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 18:35 Like, archeologists like to drink, you know?

Joe Rogan 18:37 I'm sure.

Michael P. Masters 18:37 That's, we, we dig and it's boring as hell.

Joe Rogan 18:39 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 18:39 You know, it's not Indiana Jones. We're not running around banging hot chicks and flying on planes. We're like, "We got a spoon and we're doing this for eight hours." So, uh, yeah, I actually found the last one on the last day, and it was by far the worst one. Like, I had to argue that this is even, it should even count as one of these. Um, but yeah. No, it was, it was a cool site. Um, so yeah, they were, they, they were doing well. But we were doing better. We came in and replaced them.

Joe Rogan 19:03 Well, something happened where we replaced them.

Michael P. Masters 19:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:06 But this is an ad for BetterHelp. The holidays come with a lot of traditions. Gathering with family, cooking those once-a-year recipes, and leaning into the little rituals that bring everyone together. That's something I always look forward to. But there's another tradition I think we should all start doing during the holidays, and that's taking some time for ourselves. This season, you do so many things for the other people in your life. You plan get-togethers around everyone's schedule, you spend hours picking out the right gifts and cooking the right food. But you also deserve just as much attention. Otherwise, you'll burn yourself out. So, do yourself a favor and take some me time. Go on a hunting trip, have a quiet night with a book, maybe even schedule a session with a therapist. Therapy is an extremely effective way to make sure you're focusing on what you need. And BetterHelp can easily set you up. They have access to a wide network of fully qualified therapists, and they do a lot of the work for you. Even if that first

Joe Rogan 20:06 match isn't a good fit, you can easily switch to another therapist. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhelp.com/jre. The point is, as time goes on, humans today are probably the most feeble version of humans that have ever existed.

Michael P. Masters 20:31 Oh, for sure, yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:32 And we're, we're the most feeble versions of people that have existed within the last century, right? Like, if you go back to humans from the 1920s versus humans from the 2020s, people have way less testosterone now, way or higher instances of miscarriages, way lower sperm count. You know, there's a lot of factors that are at play right now that are changing what a human is. And if you extrapolate, if you look at the future, you would naturally say, "Well, we're probably going to be very thin." It seems like there's at least some sort of a push to eliminate gender. Like, gender seems like it's on the table as whether or not it's even necessary. There's all sorts of new technological innovations that are leading to the possibility, at least sometime in the future, of an artificial womb.

Michael P. Masters 21:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:22 Um, there's genetic engineering with CRISPR and a, a lot of other different technologies that are being explored that we might be able to engineer human beings, and then even create a complete individual human being without a mother, without a father. So, if you thought about what that looks like in the future, like, one of our problems on, in this planet is we all have different ideologies, different religions, come from different parts of the world. We look different. And human beings, as tribal primates, have a tendency to other.

Michael P. Masters 21:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:56 We other different tribes. Those are not us, we are us.

Michael P. Masters 21:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:59 Those are the enemy. We go out-

Michael P. Masters 22:01 You rally around it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:02 But if everybody's exactly the same and we share one mind, you know, then a lot of our problems go away.

Michael P. Masters 22:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:08 If we no longer have to compete for resources, we no longer have the desire to procreate and to acquire land and to be, you know, to have a, a territory, we, we eliminate a lot of our issues. And that's what these things look like. When you look at the archetypal, these i- iconic sort of shapes that have been on cave walls all the way up to Close Encounters of the Third Kind, one thing they share is that they have no muscle, they have large heads, they have big eyes.

Michael P. Masters 22:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:42 And they-

Michael P. Masters 22:42 And they're childlike.

Joe Rogan 22:43 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 22:43 They're very paedomorphic, as we say. Yeah, you just tied together, like, a lot of really important points, um, related to this theory. Uh, aspects of why they're always interested in our gametes, why they come back and put that little machine on a man to collect semen, why they're constantly taking eggs from females and implanting fetuses, pulling them back out later. Like, they're clearly focused on reproduction, gamete extraction. And one of the things that might be fueling that in the future, if these are future humans, let's just assume for a second hypothetically, is that they might be having problems directly resulting from these trends towards self-domestication, these trends toward feminization, these trends toward reduced sperm counts, which is 60% across most populations of the world, in the industrialized world, 50% across the entire world. Um, yeah, problems with reproduction, uh, in vitro fertilization, exogenesis chambers might help solve some of those problems, growing the, the fetus outside of the body. So, so yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:49 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 23:49 And, and like you said, you know, what do they look like? They look like kind of a, a hybrid between males and females to some extent. But there's still an essence of gender. Like, if you talk to Whitley Strieber, you know, he's with this being. He, he says in Communion that, "I had a sense that she was a woman. I don't know why."... but I-

Joe Rogan 24:07 Mm.

Michael P. Masters 24:07 ... kind of sensed that. So, it's almost like the, the essence of the individual, the soul of the individual still retains that sort of gender identity, even though our bodies are becoming more childlike, more gender indiscriminate. Uh, I don't know, but yeah, yet another one of those ways in which we might sort of grow together as a species.

Joe Rogan 24:27 Now, when you say they are extracting sperm, like, what, how many of these stories do you take seriously? There's a lot of these stories.

Michael P. Masters 24:38 That's a great question, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:39 You know? There's-

Michael P. Masters 24:40 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 24:40 ... unfortunately, for any sort of spectacular public thing that's in the zeitgeist, like alien abduction, whether it's Whitley Strieber from Communion or the John Mack books, uh, f- the guy from Harvard that wrote, um, what was it? Abduction?

Michael P. Masters 24:58 Passport to the Cosmos-

Joe Rogan 24:59 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 24:59 ... and Abduction, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:00 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 25:00 Two great books.

Joe Rogan 25:01 Great books. But these are all books about encounters, close encounters of the third kind with some sort of a being from another place. Whatever it is, it's just not a human being, and it seems to be technol- technologically, at least, superior to us.

Michael P. Masters 25:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:16 And it seems to be one thing they all seem to share is they seem to be able to communicate telekinetically or telepathically.

Michael P. Masters 25:22 Yeah, yeah. And I mean, they, they aren't human, but they are very human too. So for instance, like, that, that's one of the main reasons I started exploring this. I was actually kind of put into this when I was eight or nine years old, sort of activated in a way and put on this path by a weird thing that happened to me when I was a kid.

Joe Rogan 25:42 What happened to you?

Michael P. Masters 25:43 Well, so I talk about it in my first two books, Identified Flying Objects and The Extratempestrial Model, where my, I learned about, um, a close encounter that my dad had. He was a veterinarian in Northeast Ohio where I grew up, and he was out one night on a call, uh, with another guy. So there's two people as far as Jalen Hynek's reliability scale. It has more reliability 'cause there's multiple witnesses. It's also strange on his scale because they crested the hill. There's a bright light. This is an Amish country. There's no lights in Amish country. And all of a sudden, this bright light darts toward 'em, hovers just above their truck, darts back to where it was and (swooshes) straight up into space, like at incredible speed. So this happened before I was born, but I overheard him telling this story to some friends one night. He got Whitley Strieber's book, Communion, as most people did in the 1980s and as they should, 'cause it's a great book. And I walked into the living room. The book is sitting on the shelf facing out, and I remember like it was yesterday. I sort of stopped, and there was, like, this light, like a white light. And then I saw this image in my mind of like, uh, an early hominin chimpanzee-like creature, a modern human, and then that archetypal gray alien from the cover. With this information, what if they're related? What if they are us from the future? And obviously, I mean, that's why I became a biological anthropologist. People are always like, "So-"

Joe Rogan 27:06 Wait, you saw this?

Michael P. Masters 27:07 Yeah. It was like a, a flash, like a light. And I, you know, it's weird looking back on it 'cause I know a lot more about these experiences. I've talked to people that have had these types of experiences.

Joe Rogan 27:18 What was the setting?

Michael P. Masters 27:19 It was our living room. So it was like the, you come in the front door and just to the left, there's this living room, built-in bookshelf, Whitley's books right there.

Joe Rogan 27:27 Uh-huh.

Michael P. Masters 27:27 I just turned the corner, saw it, and then like (swooshes) just kind of, it just came. Like I didn't know-

Joe Rogan 27:33 You j-

Michael P. Masters 27:33 ... shit about evolutionary biology. I didn't know about UFOs.

Joe Rogan 27:34 When you say you saw it, like you saw it how?

Michael P. Masters 27:36 In my mind, just this white light.

Joe Rogan 27:38 Just an image.

Michael P. Masters 27:39 And there was that image of the three faces and then the question, "Could they be us from the future?" And a lot of people are like, "How'd you get into UFOs? Like, you're a biological anthropologist." It's the opposite. I got into biological anthropology to research this question of whether they could be us from the future.

Joe Rogan 27:56 Huh. So, so this, you, you felt like at that moment, it wasn't just like a, a weird thought or a dream. It felt like a message. Like, what did it feel like?

Michael P. Masters 28:08 Yeah, yeah. It, it was some, it was a tasking. You know, I, I think, I think Rupert Sheldrake said it, that, that people don't have ideas. Ideas have people.

Joe Rogan 28:17 Hmm.

Michael P. Masters 28:18 I think that was like the, "Hey, go do this thing."

Joe Rogan 28:21 Hmm.

Michael P. Masters 28:22 And I did. That's why we're here now-

Joe Rogan 28:24 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 28:24 ... talking about it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:26 (laughs) Wow.

Michael P. Masters 28:27 And obviously, you know, you gotta be careful about, like, selection bias and confirmation-

Joe Rogan 28:31 Of course.

Michael P. Masters 28:31 ... bias. Like, I didn't go into this. I didn't go into grad school... I also didn't tell anybody in grad school I was there 'cause they would've kicked me out. Um, but I went into it with an open mind, but I was there to study these things because of that event when I was eight years old.

Joe Rogan 28:47 Wow. Y- yeah, it's, it is a problem, the confirmation bias.

Michael P. Masters 28:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:53 It is a problem with wanting it to be real. And I struggle with that 'cause I desperately want it to be real. And so every time I talk to someone, you know, I've talked to a bunch of people that are, you know, air quote, "whistleblowers," and some of them, I think, for sure, have been sent in here to distribute dif- this information.

Michael P. Masters 29:12 Yeah, no doubt.

Joe Rogan 29:13 For sure, 'cause it's a great place to do it.

Michael P. Masters 29:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:16 I'll listen to you.

Michael P. Masters 29:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:17 I'll entertain almost anything.

Michael P. Masters 29:18 Which is great. We need that.

Joe Rogan 29:20 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 29:20 You know? But yeah, I mean, obviously, there's people that are gonna take advantage of it too.

Joe Rogan 29:23 But I think it's also important for me to say I'm not convinced. I-

Michael P. Masters 29:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:27 You know, I don't know how much of this is horseshit, but it's not zero.

Michael P. Masters 29:31 No.

Joe Rogan 29:31 It's not 0%.

Michael P. Masters 29:31 And, and that was your question, is how, how do I-

Joe Rogan 29:34 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 29:34 ... differentiate among these different cases. Um, I do draw from Hynek's, in, in his book, The UFO Experience, he lists out how we all should approach this based on the reliability scale and the strangeness scale. Um, Jacques Vallée also drew from that, helped him develop it as part of The Invisible College and all of his work. But regardless of, like, my own personal discernments, my second book, The Extratempestrial Model, is about 30 case studies, 15 main case studies, but then I pull in other ones. And it explores the different theories. Obviously, the main one being this extratempestrial idea, this future... Which, by the way, I saw the word of the day-... today was anachronistic, and I was like, "Man, that would have been a way better word than extra-tempestual," which everybody struggles with.

Joe Rogan 30:23 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 30:23 I could have called them anachronauts.

Joe Rogan 30:25 Ooh.

Michael P. Masters 30:25 Doesn't that sound cool?

Joe Rogan 30:26 That does sound cool.

Michael P. Masters 30:27 Anachronauts.

Joe Rogan 30:28 Ooh, that sounds really cool.

Michael P. Masters 30:29 I know. What the hell was I thinking, man?

Joe Rogan 30:30 Ah.

Michael P. Masters 30:31 Anyway.

Joe Rogan 30:31 You live, you learn.

Michael P. Masters 30:32 But, so one of the most commonly reported things across all cases, regardless of whether you think it's bullshit or you think this definitely happened, is they really want our sperm.

Joe Rogan 30:43 Hmm.

Michael P. Masters 30:43 They really need or want our reproductive material, our gametes. And it's funny, 'cause, uh, when I wrote my first book in 20... I started it in 2012, published it in 2019. Right at the end, I did an interview and someone was like, "Have you heard of Jim Penniston?" I'm like, "No." Which is kind of a failing on my behalf. I'll admit that one. Uh, it turns out ... So, it was the Rendlesham- Rendlesham Forest incident. He touched this craft, he got this binary code, and he, uh, when deciphering the binary code, they legitimately specifically said, "We are you from the future. We're having problems with reproduction." He underwent hypnotic regression. "We're having problems with reproduction and we need this genetic material to help ourselves." And a lot of people were like, "Well, why are they coming back and doing stuff to us?" I think they're coming back and getting stuff from us because of problems they're having largely related to what you were talking about earlier, with, um, the reduced sperm counts, the problem with female infertility. What if we do try to create the perfect human specimen, or we try to cure these genetic diseases through genetic manipulation, CRISPR, and we screw something up? We might have to come back. But we can't go to another planet. There aren't people on these planets. We can't go and sample gametes from these other places. We might have to go into our past to get those wild-type, un- uh, unmanipulated gametes in order to fix these problems.

Joe Rogan 32:05 God, that s- that's a crazy level of technological sophistication, the ability to venture back in time and somehow or another not fuck up the timeline that's leading to ... W- I mean, this is the problem that's always been theorized about time travel. Anything that you do, if you went back in time, any inter- interactions, you would completely change how the future would play out.

Michael P. Masters 32:31 In the many worlds interpretation.

Joe Rogan 32:32 Yes.

Michael P. Masters 32:32 Yeah. So that idea is, unfortunately, very pervasive, and mostly because of Back to the Future, which I think ruined the brains of most people.

Joe Rogan 32:42 (laughs) Mine, too.

Michael P. Masters 32:43 Certainly in my f-

Joe Rogan 32:44 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 32:44 ... my, my generation. Um, but what most physo- and physicists don't agree on many things, but most agree that we live in what's called a block universe. Landscape time, block time, where if you imagine all moments from the very beginning of the Big Bang to the end of the universe, where all matter disp- disappears into, like, a black hole or contracts or whatever it does, all moments are already there. They exist as this massive four-dimensional block of all moments, all world lines, everything. So you go back into the past, as you perceive it, you can do whatever you want. You can walk around, step on butterflies, you know, slap people in the face, kick over, you know, dinosaurs or whatever. I don't think we can go back that far, but you could do anything you want and it doesn't change anything because you're going back in the block universe and doing those things you were always already going to do. And when you get home, everything's the same because that was already their past. To everybody that stayed behind, that was already their past. It was only the future for you to go back and do those things that you were already gonna do, and then you just went and did them, get home, everything's the same because you were always going to do those things in the first place.

Joe Rogan 33:53 That's bizarre. Th- that's hard to swallow.

Michael P. Masters 33:56 And if- if that is the actual model of the universe, and again, I can only work ... In writing these books, I can only work from what we know now. Clearly, there's a lot of things we don't know. I'm not claiming to know anything beyond what we can know right now. But physicists, despite not knowing what time is, they know it's an emergent phenomenon. There's something more fundamental that time comes from. But they do agree on this block universe model, and in that case, there is no paradox.

Joe Rogan 34:22 How do they all agree on that? Like, wouldn't you have to test that and come up with some sort of a- a hypothesis and then try to prove it or disprove it? Like, how-

Michael P. Masters 34:30 You're right. I shouldn't say they all agree, 'cause there is the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, where if you went back, in that situation, it would be change. You would be changing the timeline. Would it be changing your timeline or would it be changing a different timeline, is the question.

Joe Rogan 34:44 Hmm.

Michael P. Masters 34:45 And how would you know ... There- there's more paradoxes with changing things than not changing things.

Joe Rogan 34:50 Why do you confidently state that you don't think that they can go back to the dinosaur age?

Michael P. Masters 34:55 Um, partly because ... Three different reasons. One, um, I think they need tremendously high speed in order to be able to go back into the past. Um, so basically, w- again, working from all I can work from in this time, with the limited primitive primate knowledge that I have in the year 2012 to 2025, um, I basically just started with Einstein's theory of relativity, which he published in 1905 on the electrodynamics of moving bodies. And then in 1915, he published his paper on general relativity. From that point on, almost instantly, there were solutions to his field equations that showed what the right parameters of a massively highly s- uh, energetic rotating ring or sphere or disc that you could create closed timelike curves, that you could actually orient light cones back toward the past, so you can physically go into the past. We saw this with Lense and Thirring in, like, 1917 and '18.

Joe Rogan 35:57 Kirk Gödel.

Michael P. Masters 35:58 Gödel universe was-

Joe Rogan 35:59 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 35:59 ... not long after, in, I think, the '20s maybe. And then, importantly, in 1970s, you had Frank Tipler, uh, who showed mathematically that you can shrink that down to a disc. He actually called it a disc. That's one of the reasons I think that these are time machines, is because it has all of the parameters described by Frank Tipler. He wasn't talking about UFOs, but it ... They seemingly have the ability to jump in and out of time. They appear and disappear. And I- I'm talking too much, so I'll wrap this up in a second. But-

Joe Rogan 36:28 You're definitely not talking too much.

Michael P. Masters 36:29 Well, I mean, we're here to talk, but-

Joe Rogan 36:31 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 36:31 ... I- I have an internal trigger-

Joe Rogan 36:32 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 36:32 ... where I'm like, "Shut up, Masters."

Joe Rogan 36:34 No, no, no.

Michael P. Masters 36:34 "You're talking too much."

Joe Rogan 36:35 Don't, don't listen to that trigger. Let it roll.

Michael P. Masters 36:36 Um, so anyway, you know, if you look at the history of how we understand backward time travel, what I think they're doing is that ...... I think they're combining general relativity and special relativity, so I think they're orienting the light cones toward the past by rotating these things really, really fast. You hear that all the time. They power up, they're spinning, or at least there's some sort of flywheel on the outside that's spinning. I think that's what's allowing them to move toward the past, and then pew, they take off. So it's that high speed that I think allows them to go further into the past, so they're using... You're aware of the twins paradox, I'm sure. Um, time dilation, where you have two twins, they're the same age-

Joe Rogan 37:16 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 37:16 ... and then one goes into a spaceship, they move at tremendously high speed. They come back and they're much younger than their twin, because time moved faster back on Earth. I think they're using that high speed motion while light cones are oriented toward the past in order to travel deeper into the past, through that process of time dilation. There are limits to how fast we can go. Einstein w- was very adamant about this, because there's an increase in inertial forces the faster you go relative to the speed of light. That's why he thought we could never go... That's why he thought that anything with mass could never go faster than the speed of light. Light can do it 'cause it's a wave, or a particle, or both. Um, so I think there's a, a limit to how fast we can go. The other reason is 'cause Jim Penniston, in this hypnotic regression, said that. He's like, "We can only go 40 to 60,000 years into the past, or we might not get back."

Joe Rogan 38:11 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 38:11 You also have, and this is a more speculative one, so take it for what it's worth, you also have the Dan Burisch testimony of this J-Rod, this allegedly captured alien, who said, "We're from the future. We are you from the future, and we're from about 55 to 60,000 years in your future." So those three things together are why I don't think we could go back 65 million years to hunt dinosaurs, which actually would be kind of fun. I think it would.

Joe Rogan 38:39 When you've been talking about going the speed of light, you're talking about not traditional propulsion, but some form of propulsion that allows you to go at insane speeds.

Michael P. Masters 38:49 Yeah, electromagnetic is what it seems to be. Um, and, and importantly, the electromagnetic force is 10 to the 40 times more powerful than gravity. So not only do I think that's what they use to fly, I think that's what they use to manipulate spacetime. Actually, and, and Dan Burisch is... Not Dan Burisch, uh, Dan Farah. I think you just had him on-

Joe Rogan 39:09 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 39:09 ... too, the Age of Disclosure.

Joe Rogan 39:10 Yes.

Michael P. Masters 39:11 There was this really cool thing at the end where, uh, Hal Puthoff and I think Eric Davis as well were talking about this spacetime bubble, right? A really weird thing happened. We can get to that in a second, but, uh, I don't wanna jump around too much 'cause I'll lose people and myself probably. Um, but this spacetime bubble that they form around the craft I think is also indicative of the fact that they're manipulating spacetime, that they're traveling in and out of time. They use it to hide in plain sight. They manipulate the rate at which they move relative to us in their frame of reference, and they're moving fast all around us. They're dz, dz, dz, dz, dz, and they've slowed time down outside of that bubble, so everything is really, really slow to them, and they can easily evade our bullets and our missiles, but we don't see 'em because we don't have that frame rate of perception.

Joe Rogan 39:59 Mm.

Michael P. Masters 39:59 And, and if you slow videos do- I'm sure you've seen these all the time-

Joe Rogan 40:02 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 40:02 ... where there's like a dz, and then you slow it down and you can see this saucer-shaped craft moving slowly across the sky once you slow down the frame rate. Um, but a really funny thing happened because I've, I've never actually talked about this, uh, with anyone before. Um, I owe a lot of the fact that anybody even knows who I am to Hal Puthoff. He, uh... When I first started talking about this publicly in 2018, and then I published my book in 2019, Identified Flying Objects, he, um, I guess reached out to the head of MUFON at the time, who was putting together the 50th anniversary MUFON event, and was like, "Hey, you should have this Mike Masters guy come talk." And I found that out from the head of MUFON. He's like, "Hey, just so you know, Hal Puthoff, of all people, recommended I contact you." I had no idea who that is, so I get on the internet and I Google Hal Puthoff. Um, he also put Jesse Michaels, mutual friend, uh, in touch with me after... I think he did an interview with him and Weinstein. Uh, I forget his name.

Joe Rogan 41:06 Eric?

Michael P. Masters 41:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:07 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 41:07 Yeah, so he did, uh, an interview with those two. I guess Hal was like, "Hey, you should reach out to Mike Masters," and he did, and we talked and we've done stuff together. But what was cool is that at the end of that Age of Disclosure film, when he's talking about the spacetime bubble, I thought back to after my first book came out and I was contacted by someone who claimed to be an ex-intelligence person, who explained that exact same thing to me back in 2019. That these things aren't doing 10,000 G maneuvers that would crush anything inside. To them, in their frame of reference, what they feel is completely different than what we see, because in that spacetime bubble, they can be moving at 50,000 miles an hour, do a right-hand turn, and it would splatter anything inside 'cause of the G-forces. That's what we see on the outside, but in that spacetime bubble, they probably feel one, two Gs at the most. So I started thinking, man, was that Hal? Did Hal reach out to me with like a different email address and say, "Hey, just so you know, this is how these things are happening, this is how they're able to do it"? And I was a dumbass. I still am a dumbass, but I was an extra big dumbass back then, and I was like, "Oh, cool. Thanks, man." You know, like, a, a story went viral about my books, and Fox News picked it up, and space.com. And so I was going through a bunch of emails. They recognized I wasn't getting what they were saying, I was not picking up what they were putting down, and they were like, "No, this is important." Said it again, and then it clicked. I was like, "Oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense."

Joe Rogan 42:42 So-

Michael P. Masters 42:42 They're manipulating the rate at which time passes in this bubble around the craft, and we see something completely different.

Joe Rogan 42:48 So when we're seeing this, we are imagining what we can do.... and we're sort of saying, "Well, what would be an advanced version of what we can do?" And what this technology is, is something that's levels of magnitude beyond even our theoretical, like, i- i- any sort of idea that we have currently about, you know, potential future timelines of technology.

Michael P. Masters 43:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:14 Th- there's no one talking about gravity bubbles that allow you to instantaneously traverse immense gaps in the universe.

Michael P. Masters 43:24 Well, they might be talking about it behind closed doors at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

Joe Rogan 43:28 Right.

Michael P. Masters 43:28 And have been for 70 years-

Joe Rogan 43:30 Yeah, that's the problem.

Michael P. Masters 43:32 ... give or take.

Joe Rogan 43:32 That's the real problem with disclosure. Like, how, how much progress could we have made if they had opened up all this stuff? And, I me- and you got to imagine, if you were an intelligent life form from another planet ... You know, Diana Pasolka talked about, uh, her and Garry Nolan talked about how they refer to some of these things as donations.

Michael P. Masters 43:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:52 They don't think of them as crashed vehicles, because some of them are not crashed. They're completely intact, and-

Michael P. Masters 43:58 I think David Grusch said that too, didn't he?

Joe Rogan 44:00 Yeah, I believe he did.

Michael P. Masters 44:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:01 And even, you know, uh, Lazar, when, when he was talking about it, he, you know, he-

Michael P. Masters 44:06 Yeah, the sports model.

Joe Rogan 44:08 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 44:08 Wasn't that fully intact too?

Joe Rogan 44:09 Fully intact. Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 44:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:10 Fully intact and operational, and apparently they flew it around.

Michael P. Masters 44:13 No kidding?

Joe Rogan 44:13 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 44:14 That'd be fun.

Joe Rogan 44:14 Well, that was one of the reasons ... You know the whole story how he got caught? It's a really crazy story. So, uh, he used to work at Los Alamos. He was a propulsions expert. The guy put a jet engine on the back of a Honda.

Michael P. Masters 44:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:25 It was a real freak.

Michael P. Masters 44:27 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:27 You know, he made a hydrogen Corvette in like the 1990s.

Michael P. Masters 44:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:30 He was a nutty dude.

Michael P. Masters 44:31 Clearly an engineer.

Joe Rogan 44:32 Yes.

Michael P. Masters 44:32 That part checks out.

Joe Rogan 44:33 Um, so he, uh, gets this job on Area S4 and, um, goes there. And this is all documented in Jeremy Corbell's, uh, excellent movie, uh, Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers. So, he goes there and sees this thing and it's got a American flag sticker on it. And, you know, they, they basically say, "Tell us how it works." And he's like, "Oh, this is ours," 'cause he sees it has a sticker on it.

Michael P. Masters 44:59 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:59 And then he realizes this is made out of some completely unknown alloy. There's no seams in it. It seems to be 3D printed. There's no controls inside of it. It's designed for something that's three feet tall. It's all very fucking weird.

Michael P. Masters 45:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:13 Um, so he's working on this thing, not making much headway at all. They, they understood that there was an element, Element 115-

Michael P. Masters 45:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:20 ... that was, uh, not even on the periodic table, uh, eventually found to actually be a thing by the Large Hadron Collider. Um, but e- even then, they only measured it for a millisecond, right? So then, he's saying that they have this stable version of this element and you bombard it with radiation and it creates this sort of gravity drive. Um, he's working on this thing and it's all top secret, so he cannot tell his wife. So, they're calling him up at 10:00 like, "Hey, get to the airpl- the, uh, airport. Uh, we need you." And so he would have to fly out at random times, fly out to S4. And his wife was like, "This motherfucker is having an affair."

Michael P. Masters 46:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:01 "Well, I'm gonna have an affair too." So, she starts fucking her flight atten- or, uh, flight instructor.

Michael P. Masters 46:05 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 46:06 I think that's what it was. Um, when you have that kind of clearance, they are monitoring everything. They're monitoring all your phone calls. They're d-

Michael P. Masters 46:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:13 They're l- So, they've realized that his wife is having an affair and they think that he will be emotionally unstable and it's too dangerous to have him working on this insanely top secret information if he's not stable. So, they, they tell him, you know, "We're gonna at least temporarily relieve you of your duties." So, he's freaked out and he tells his friends. Like, "Hey, this, this is, this is what they're doing there."

Michael P. Masters 46:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:37 "They have these things and, uh, they fly them every Wednesday. I'm gonna take you guys. There's an area we can go watch." So, they take ... He takes his friends out there on two separate occasions, I believe. Um, they get caught. They get caught, he gets arrested. Uh, they release him and he realizes like, "I'm kind of fucked. They might kill me."

Michael P. Masters 46:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:54 "I'm gonna have to go public with this." Contacts George Knapp.

Michael P. Masters 46:57 George Knapp.

Joe Rogan 46:57 And then-

Michael P. Masters 46:57 I did see that. I think-

Joe Rogan 46:58 ... then the whole thing is history.

Michael P. Masters 46:59 Yeah. Yeah. No, that's wild, man. And I, I think ... Uh, and, and it's still happening, you know? There's still these whistleblowers that are-

Joe Rogan 47:07 Well, he says they, they used to fly them and you could go watch them fly these things.

Michael P. Masters 47:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:11 And they were moving in these really weird ways across the sky that you cannot do with conventional-

Michael P. Masters 47:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:15 ... aircraft. That they only sort of understood how to like pick it up and put it down. They didn't understand how to like really move it around.

Michael P. Masters 47:22 That was out at Groomlake, right?

Joe Rogan 47:23 Yes.

Michael P. Masters 47:24 Yeah. I remember as a kid, I'd ... I've been ... obviously been into this for a long time. I remember as a kid, seeing videos of people going out.

Joe Rogan 47:30 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 47:31 And then they eventually closed it down. You couldn't get to that spot. But there was like a-

Joe Rogan 47:34 That was during the Obama Administration.

Michael P. Masters 47:35 ... hillside where you could go up.

Joe Rogan 47:35 During the Obama Administration.

Michael P. Masters 47:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:37 They actually had to admit that Area 51 was real.

Michael P. Masters 47:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:39 'Cause before that they didn't ... no one even knew it was real. I mean, that was always just a joke, like, "Area 51."

Michael P. Masters 47:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:44 It was like for fun. But then they said, "No, it is real, and we need to expand the forbidden boundary."

Michael P. Masters 47:50 Yeah. And isn't, isn't that when people were gonna like bum rush it too? Is that when that happened?

Joe Rogan 47:54 That was during COVID.

Michael P. Masters 47:55 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 47:56 During COVID, there was a bunch of dorks-

Michael P. Masters 47:57 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:57 ... that were like, "We're gonna crash Area 51."

Michael P. Masters 47:59 Oh my God. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:59 That's a good way to die.

Michael P. Masters 48:00 (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 48:01 Kids, they'll fucking kill you. 'Cause th-

Michael P. Masters 48:02 Hey, natural selection, man.

Joe Rogan 48:03 Yeah. They're working on a lot of stuff out there and some of it is weapons.

Michael P. Masters 48:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:07 They can't have you, uh-

Michael P. Masters 48:08 And, uh ...

Joe Rogan 48:08 ... internet dorks from Reddit just-

Michael P. Masters 48:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:11 ... r- running out into Area 51.

Michael P. Masters 48:13 Yeah, I think they eventually realized that, 'cause I don't think they went out there, but ...

Joe Rogan 48:16 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 48:16 It could've been bad.

Joe Rogan 48:17 I think it was all bullshit. They weren't gonna-

Michael P. Masters 48:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:19 What are you gonna do?

Michael P. Masters 48:20 They would've-

Joe Rogan 48:20 How are you gonna get out there?

Michael P. Masters 48:21 ... clicked bait.

Joe Rogan 48:21 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 48:21 Engagement farming. Yeah, man. There's a lot of crazy shit that's been going on. It's been going on for a while. Um, S- Jamey and I were talking before and about the stovepiping too, and all the different-

Joe Rogan 48:32 Stovepiping?

Michael P. Masters 48:33 Yeah, the different ways that they compartmentalize what they're doing and they talked about it in Age of Disclosure too. That's a big problem because...... certain people are working on these parts of the craft to reverse engineer them, to understand them-

Joe Rogan 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 48:46 ... but they don't have the whole picture. They're not-

Joe Rogan 48:47 Lazar was talking about that-

Michael P. Masters 48:49 ... working on the whole craft.

Joe Rogan 48:49 ... from the 1980s.

Michael P. Masters 48:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:50 In 1989, he said the, the people that were working on metallurgy-

Michael P. Masters 48:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:54 ... were not in contact with the people that are working on propulsion, and you weren't... He's like, "Science cannot operate like that."

Michael P. Masters 48:59 Yeah. No, it can't, 'cause you need to know what's going on beyond just this little part that you're-

Joe Rogan 49:04 Right.

Michael P. Masters 49:04 ... working on.

Joe Rogan 49:04 And if you have a bunch of people that are sharing information, you get a much more comprehensive-

Michael P. Masters 49:09 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 49:09 ... understanding of what this thing is.

Michael P. Masters 49:10 Yeah, we all benefit from communication.

Joe Rogan 49:12 Right, 'cause there could be something involved in the actual structure of it that-

Michael P. Masters 49:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:16 ... lends to its ability to do something. It might not be simply just structure. It might be-

Michael P. Masters 49:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:21 ... structure with some sort of an ability.

Michael P. Masters 49:23 Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can't see the forest through the trees in these situations. And, and it's unfortunate, and what the argument they made in this, this docu is that we're putting ourselves at a disadvantage because other countries have probably retrieved these things too, and they might be working on it, yes, in secrecy, but if people are working together-

Joe Rogan 49:41 Right.

Michael P. Masters 49:41 ... and not stovepiping this thing-

Joe Rogan 49:43 Right.

Michael P. Masters 49:43 ... ad infinitum, then they might be able to actually make more progress faster than us. So part of the disclosure push is to be like, "Yeah, these things are real. We have them. Let's get our best scientists together to work on this holistically instead of compartmentalizing everything."

Joe Rogan 49:57 Well, just imagine if they had done that from 1947, where we would be.

Michael P. Masters 50:00 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:01 If that's real. If Roswell was real, if all the, the crash was real, Philip Drake Corso's correct, and all these people are telling the truth.

Michael P. Masters 50:07 (laughs) I know. And we still have to preface these things with, "If, if it's real-"

Joe Rogan 50:11 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 50:11 "... if it's real." And, and, yeah, I, I, I, I do the same thing. I mean, as, coming from academia, when I wrote my first book, I had to be like, "If this is real." But it's hard. It's this, this paradox of sorts because it... How do you write to explain something that isn't real?

Joe Rogan 50:27 Right.

Michael P. Masters 50:27 You know, what's the point of even doing that?

Joe Rogan 50:29 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 50:30 Um, so, so I think we have to assume... I'm actually teaching a class, uh, at Montana Tech this spring called UFO's History and Science.

Joe Rogan 50:38 Ooh, I would take that if I was in school.

Michael P. Masters 50:39 I think, I think it's gonna be a lot of fun.

Joe Rogan 50:41 I'd be like, "Fuck yeah."

Michael P. Masters 50:41 I know. I'm pretty stoked about it.

Joe Rogan 50:42 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 50:42 And I had these artists design a poster in, uh, Norway and the UK, and just this crazy... Like, I was like, "How, how conservative should I be with this? Like, just a UFO?" And I gave them total artistic freedom, and there's like, an alien holding the Earth, and there's-

Joe Rogan 50:56 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 50:56 ... UFOs swinging around. I'm like, "All right, I guess that's what I'm doing." Plastered it all over campus-

Joe Rogan 51:00 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 51:00 ... to recruit people to take the class. But like, I'm going in on day one, "We're not, we're not gonna fuck around with like, 'Are these things real?'" We're not gonna waste time on that. We're gonna jump in. These are real. Here's what we're doing. This is what we know. This is what we don't know. Explore the theories, explore the history, explore the pre-history. 'Cause it's, it's a waste of time. Like, these thing, these things are real. You know?

Joe Rogan 51:22 You think they're real.

Michael P. Masters 51:23 I, I know they are.

Joe Rogan 51:23 What makes you convinced?

Michael P. Masters 51:25 Um, I have read enough accounts in researching this, and from people that I know, I mean, starting from when I was a kid, hearing my biological father's account. You know, the way he told it. And then I interviewed him again in college to try to get more information, 'cause I was just over hearing from the stairs when I was supposed to be in bed. He saw what he saw. And then eventually, I saw some UFOs.

Joe Rogan 51:52 What did you see?

Michael P. Masters 51:53 I was kind of pissed actually, 'cause I was started talking about this in 2018, and people were always like, "You ever seen a UFO?" "No, never seen a UFO. I'd like to." And then finally, in 2022, uh, it might have been late 2021, I don't remember exactly when. It was kind of warmish, so it was probably 2021. But I, I was... Everybody was in bed. I'm at my house. I live in a canyon, and I was having a whiskey, and I was like... I just walked up the canyon wall for some reason, like, the hill behind my house. I don't really know why. I turn around, and I could see these five super bright lights over what's known as the East Ridge in Butte, Montana. They were just like, sitting there, right over the East Ridge. I was like, "Well, that's not normal." Those aren't usually there. And they weren't stars, you know, they're way too big, way too close. I would say they were probably within eight to, uh, five to eight miles. You know, they, they were in the distance, but they were like, there. And then I just kind of looked at them for a second, like, "Oh, that's weird." And then one by one, from right to left, they just went... Shot off toward the southeast at like, crazy speed. You know, like the, the kind of, like in, in Star Wars or Star Trek when they hit hyperdrive, and like-

Joe Rogan 53:01 Right.

Michael P. Masters 53:02 ... there's that, that little light-

Joe Rogan 53:03 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 53:04 ... trail. Like, just one by one until they were all gone. That, I have no conventional explanation for that.

Joe Rogan 53:12 Wow.

Michael P. Masters 53:13 T- but I've never been one of those people that's like, "I need to see it to believe it."

Joe Rogan 53:17 Right.

Michael P. Masters 53:17 Because I believe the people who say the same thing over and over. There's patterns that we can extract from people's testaments who have had these close encounters, and that's one unfortunate thing that's happening right now, is we're talking about the pilots, talking about police. But people have been seeing these forever, but they did such a good job manufacturing the stigma around it with Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book, to discount these people, to make them seem in- insane, you know? These-

Joe Rogan 53:43 That is one of the main points of evidence that I would point to that there is something. When people think there isn't something, I'm just like, "You should really pay attention to what they were trying to do during Project Blue Book."

Michael P. Masters 53:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:54 Because one of the m-... I have a buddy of mine, my friend, Steve Graham. Shout out to Steve. When he was a boy, he was living in New York, uh, upstate New York, and, um, he filmed this red orb that was flying across the sky, and he took some photographs of it. And, um, they called someone, some officials somewhere. I don't remember. He was, he was very young. And, um, they said, "We are gonna analyze the photos, and then we'll bring them back to you." And, um, they never returned the photographs.

Michael P. Masters 54:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:26 When he called, they said, "No agents..." Uh, "There's no record of any agents coming to visit you. We don't know what to tell you."

Michael P. Masters 54:32 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:32 So they just took his photos and that was it. But he said whatever it was, you know, he was young. I believe he was 10 or 11, a- and he said whatever it was was really weird. He goes, "It was this red orb that was flying through the sky." Um, it wasn't a spacecraft, it wasn't a sun, it wasn't a meteor. It, it looked like it was moving purposely and under control.

Michael P. Masters 54:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:54 And, um, it was there long enough for him to take a Polaroid of it.

Michael P. Masters 54:59 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:00 Yeah. And, um, they just completely el- erased any memory of it.

Michael P. Masters 55:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:07 Or any- any evidence of it. When he called, like I said, they said, "There... No agents visited you." Whatever the agent's name or there's no agents by that name.

Michael P. Masters 55:16 Yeah. That's kind of the status quo.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Yeah. Well, they try to make you look like a fool.

Michael P. Masters 55:20 (coughs) Absolutely. And that, that was intentional. Like, the stated mission of Project Grudge was to debunk these things, come up with conventional explanations, and make people seem like idiots.

Joe Rogan 55:29 Right. Not... It wasn't to investigate.

Michael P. Masters 55:32 Even scientists and... No, not at all.

Joe Rogan 55:33 It c-... The, the purpose wasn't, "Let's get to the bottom of this. Find out is this Russia? Is Russia doing this?"

Michael P. Masters 55:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:38 That was not the purpose. The purpose was make these people look like fools.

Michael P. Masters 55:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:41 You only do that if you know something that other people don't.

Michael P. Masters 55:44 Yeah.

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Michael P. Masters 56:28 And it worked.

Joe Rogan 56:29 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 56:29 They did a damn good job at it because we still feel like fools talking about this.

Joe Rogan 56:33 Oh, yeah.

Michael P. Masters 56:33 And we still have to check ourselves and be like, "Is this real?" If this is real, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:36 Right.

Michael P. Masters 56:36 But, but I, I think that shame is starting to diminish. I think the stigma is starting to go away.

Joe Rogan 56:42 Well, I think the New York Times article from 2017 was huge.

Michael P. Masters 56:45 That was huge. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 56:45 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 56:46 That was a game changer.

Joe Rogan 56:47 That was a big one.

Michael P. Masters 56:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:48 Yeah. And then from then on, it's been this trickle.

Michael P. Masters 56:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:51 These guys like Ryan Graves and, you know, guys like David Favor. I-... These, these David Fravors guys that was, you know... He was in a fighter jet, saw this thing move from 50,000 feet above sea level to sea level in le- less than a second.

Michael P. Masters 57:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:10 And they saw this thing. There was something under the water below it. It's like, whatever he saw... And if you ever talked to him? Have you ev- have you ever talked to him?

Michael P. Masters 57:19 I've talked to Alex Dietrich who was with him during that.

Joe Rogan 57:23 He's a very reliable guy and very intelligent, by the book, very disciplined.

Michael P. Masters 57:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:30 Not-

Michael P. Masters 57:30 I mean, he was like a Top Gun-

Joe Rogan 57:31 Yes, exactly.

Michael P. Masters 57:31 ... pilot. Like he was leading the-

Joe Rogan 57:33 Exactly.

Michael P. Masters 57:33 ... the whole group, right?

Joe Rogan 57:35 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 57:36 Right?

Joe Rogan 57:36 Yeah. He's a commander.

Michael P. Masters 57:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:37 So... And when he describes it, it sounds very real.

Michael P. Masters 57:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:41 Whatеv- whatever he's talking about, hе experienced. I believe that. And there's also video of it. There's video of it flying. Um, they have the radar data.

Michael P. Masters 57:49 The radar data, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:50 They, they know that it went to their designated meetup point.

Michael P. Masters 57:53 The cap point. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:54 Yeah, which is really weird.

Michael P. Masters 57:55 It is. And it indicates they knew the future, or they were part of our military.

Joe Rogan 58:02 Right.

Michael P. Masters 58:03 I kind of wonder if the Tic Tac, be- because it is somewhat anomalous in the context of a lot of things in the UFO lore as far as spinning disks or big triangular craft, this one kind of seems like one of ours.

Joe Rogan 58:15 Well, it is odd that these things happen where there's a lot of military training exercises.

Michael P. Masters 58:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:20 Like, this one was off the coast of San Diego.

Michael P. Masters 58:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:23 It was off the Nimitz, you know. So the, uh... They had the, the Nimitz, which was out there. Obviously, you got a lot of military in San Diego.

Michael P. Masters 58:30 And the Roosevelt too, I think, is where they were capturing the radar.

Joe Rogan 58:33 Mm-hmm. And the ones that Ryan Grave experienced were all East Coast again.

Michael P. Masters 58:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:37 It's all near military bases. It's all where they do military training exercises.

Michael P. Masters 58:44 Yeah. And why not figure out what you can do with people that you train with already anyway?

Joe Rogan 58:49 Right.

Michael P. Masters 58:50 You know?

Joe Rogan 58:50 And why not see, like, what is detectable and what's not?

Michael P. Masters 58:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:54 You know, Ryan Graves talks about how in 2014, they upgraded all the sensors in the jets, and then all of a sudden, they started picking these things up all over the place.

Michael P. Masters 59:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:02 He said they were encountering them virtually every time they went out.

Michael P. Masters 59:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Which is so weird. Imagine you're encountering... Uh... Was it a, a circle inside of a sphere or a sphere inside of a circle?

Michael P. Masters 59:13 Yeah. I think it was a circle in a, a sphere.

Joe Rogan 59:17 Yeah. Whatever it was.

Michael P. Masters 59:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:19 Which one was it? Was it a circle in a sphere or circle in a circle?

Michael P. Masters 59:21 It was... I just saw a picture on Twitter recently.

Joe Rogan 59:23 I can't remember. Okay.

Michael P. Masters 59:23 It was a little circle and then a cube or something.

Joe Rogan 59:26 Very fucking weird, whatever that is.

Michael P. Masters 59:28 It is. And-

Joe Rogan 59:28 And able to hover motionless in, like, 200 knots of wind.

Michael P. Masters 59:31 Yeah. And it would make sense if we are reverse engineering these, they're gonna look pretty primitive. I- it's basically a big propane tank that they're flying around.

Joe Rogan 59:39 Hmm.

Michael P. Masters 59:39 Like, they probably started simple. It's probably unmanned, but they're testing that capability to, like, manipulate the space-time to shoot off. You know, because it dropped 10... 80,000 feet in a couple seconds.

Joe Rogan 59:48 Okay. That's what it supposedly looks like.

Michael P. Masters 59:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:50 A cube inside of a sphere.

Michael P. Masters 59:52 Oh, I had it backwards.

Joe Rogan 59:52 Yeah, I would... I can remember now.

Michael P. Masters 59:53 Apparently, my dyslexia extends to images too because... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:56 Explained using UFO patents. Click on that. Explained. A recent article by The Hill has highlighted the reports of a cube and a sphere UAP military pilots have been seeing as reported by Graves, where he once again highlights how often our pilots are seeing these things and why he doesn't believe they're conventional drones or balloons. And so this is, uh, obv- obviously some sort of a computer-generated rendition. Ah, the fucking pop-up.

Michael P. Masters 1:00:22 Yeah. For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 Um, so-

Michael P. Masters 1:00:24 But- I mean, UFO patents.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 ... yeah, they didn't get a picture of it, but-

Michael P. Masters 1:00:28 But here's the patents. Scroll up a little bit. Uh, so a month ago, I did a deep dive on a post about UFO patents, how magnetohydrodynamic propulsion systems could explain some of the observations. Includes an expired patent for the 1960s and a few newer patents describing not only the propulsion, but how the plasma field can make the craft invisible to radar. Huh. Huh.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 Yeah. I mean, again, it makes sense. Like, if, if we have been reverse engineering these for 70 years, we would start bringing them out. They would look weird. They wouldn't necessarily look like the craft that we struggled to fly at Groom Lake that we could go up and down with, and that's about it. Like, they would look...

Michael P. Masters 1:01:10 ... like, this little thing that's simple, that's basic-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 1:01:12 ... that's a propane tank, or it's a cube within a s- sphere, or... I probably had that backwards again. Um, and then experiment with it, see what you can do. And a lot of people make the argument, "Well, why would they do that? It's dangerous. You know, what if there was a midair collision?" If they are actually manipulating spacetime in these things, like they seemingly are with the, with the saucer-shaped craft, you don't have to worry about that. You know, you're, you're, you're... it's... this isn't a cat and mouse game where the cat and mouse are equal. Like, you have complete control of spacetime in and around that area. You're not gonna run into anybody. They're all moving extremely slowly relative to you-

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 Mm.

Michael P. Masters 1:01:42 ... according to Puthoff and Davis at the end of that docu. And whoever reached out to me, whether it was Hal or not, somebody reached out to me and explained this same thing in 2019, and it makes a lot of damn sense. And (smacks lips) to kind of extend it into my area of research, if you can manipulate space and time in and around this craft, what's keeping you from using that to travel through time?

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 I guess. I mean... but again, that's with the, the different mod... not the multi-worlds model, but the... what was the other model that you just brought up?

Michael P. Masters 1:02:12 Block universe.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 Block universe model.

Michael P. Masters 1:02:13 The block universe theory.

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 Yeah, um... the idea that they would be so advanced that they could genetically engineer a body and get to whatever state they are at, where they communicate telepathically, but yet they can't solve the problem of old DNA, like needing... what, what do they need? D- genetic diversity? Like, what is it? What are they trying to get out of us? Are they trying to get the source, source material-

Michael P. Masters 1:02:43 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 ... instead of the old stuff, or instead of the stuff that they've had forever?

Michael P. Masters 1:02:47 One of the arguments I made in my first and second books is that, really since European colonialism started about 500 years ago, we are all becoming one interbreeding population. So, it used to be that you had different isolated populations, and then occasionally there would be gene flow that introduces new genes. If we all are just one population on this inbred island of Earth, where are you gonna get new gene variants? And then you combine that with, uh, the things we just talked about, with the potential for things to go wrong, with trying to make designer babies, or, you know, the trends toward reduced fertility in men and women. And importantly, the potential that there could be some massive cataclysm that puts us into a huge bottleneck, where there just is no genetic diversity at all.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 Mm.

Michael P. Masters 1:03:36 Like, if you think about something that happened that wiped out a huge percentage of the population, and there are warnings about this over and over again with experiencers and contactees that are like, "There's some cataclysmic thing coming." If that were to happen, all of those problems we're already having, all of the trends that are already leading to us having problems with fertility in the future, would be hugely exacerbated by a very limited gene pool.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 But we know that human beings have gotten down to a very small population-

Michael P. Masters 1:04:04 It's happened before.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 ... in the past.

Michael P. Masters 1:04:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 Yeah. So, we are...

Michael P. Masters 1:04:06 So, we're already kind of limited-

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 1:04:09 ... in our diversity.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 What do you think of the theory that human beings have been genetically engineered?

Michael P. Masters 1:04:17 Man, when I first started in all this, I wouldn't touch that one 'cause I had to impose some restrictions on myself so I didn't seem like a crazy person. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 And keep your academic standing? (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 1:04:30 I don't really care anymore, to be honest. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 Well, you sold a few books. (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 1:04:34 Yeah, I sold some books. I, I mean, that's the thing is, like, I- I do have the respect of my peers, you know, like I-

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 And it's not a career killer anymore.

Michael P. Masters 1:04:41 No, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 No.

Michael P. Masters 1:04:42 You know, I... back in 2018, I was kind of rolling the dice. I was really nervous about it. I went to the chair of my department and was like, "Hey, just so you know, in case there's any pushback, I'm publishing this book about whether, you know, UFOs are future humans." And he looked at me and cocked his head and is like, "That's our job. It's what we're supposed to be doing, asking questions like that." Like, he was, he was all pissed off, like, "Why are you even asking me this or telling me this?" You know?

Joe Rogan 1:05:05 Well, that's a cool guy to work for.

Michael P. Masters 1:05:06 Yeah. I was like, "Sweet. All right. Well, check. I got one." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 1:05:10 "I got one on board at least." (laughs) Um, but I was really conservative in this approach. Like, I... the dean, actually, of, of my college, who gave me an award for, um, scholarship and researchers... and there's a lot of amazing researchers at Montana Technological University, like, we're very well-known for research and scholarship. She gave me an award in 2022 for research and scholarship, and all I was doing at that point was UFO stuff, you know? That was-

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 Oh.

Michael P. Masters 1:05:34 ... kind of a nod too. But she was telling me the other day in a meeting, 'cause I'm the chair of the department, uh, unfortunately, and she was like, "Oh, your, your dissertation book." 'Cause I did kind of write my first book as a dissertation. It's very scientific, it's very dense, it's very technical, but I needed to do that because of the stigma, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Hm.

Michael P. Masters 1:05:54 ... because of the shame. And you're right, it is changing, which is great, but there are certain things that we still can't... that are hard for me to talk about, 'cause it starts to get into ancient aliens territory, and that's one of them.

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Hm.

Michael P. Masters 1:06:06 Are they manipulating us genetically? Have-

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 Right.

Michael P. Masters 1:06:09 ... they been for a long time? W- I don't know. I used to say, "I don't know," so I didn't have to talk about it. Now I say, "I don't know," 'cause I genuinely don't know. Maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 Well, how could you?

Michael P. Masters 1:06:19 How could I? Yeah, good point.

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 Yeah, I mean, it's all theoretical. But there seems to be a trend in at least the encounter reports, in l- l- there's... when, when people have reported some sort of communication with these things, there, there is... there's a lot of talk of genetic manipulation.

Michael P. Masters 1:06:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 There's a lot of talk of...

Michael P. Masters 1:06:40 It's the most common trope in everything.

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 Yeah. But it also makes sense when you look at how different we are than any other animal that exists or has existed.

Michael P. Masters 1:06:48 True.

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 We're so advanced and so weird, and we vary so much, like, biologically and structurally. I mean, there's animals... like, there's different kinds of wolves, right? There's gray wolves and red wolves, and they vary. And, you know, red wolves and gray wolves, they can't even interbreed and create viable offspring, in terms of, like, their abil... like, they would be hybrids if they did breed-

Michael P. Masters 1:07:10 Hm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:10 ... where they wouldn't... but they don't, they don't breed with red wolves.... and coyotes, which is also a type of wolf. But that's kind of where it ends. Whereas humans are fucking w- at least coyotes all look like coyotes. Wolves all kind of look like wolves. Like with humans, you get seven-foot-tall people and five-foot-tall people-

Michael P. Masters 1:07:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 ... and round people and thin people.

Michael P. Masters 1:07:32 But we are actually all very similar genetically.

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 Mm-hmm.

Michael P. Masters 1:07:35 There was a study done in the '70s, um, looking at polymorphisms and they found that between, like, what, uh, used to be thought there were races, like Africans, Asians and Europeans. That was it. They didn't consider Native Americans or Australians or anybody. Um, but they did this study on polymorphisms, found that only about 6% to 7% of our, all of our genetic differences can be accounted for by those between group differences. And they did the same thing with Y chromosomes, they did the same thing with craniofacial anatomy, and found that we're all very similar. So despite those differences in height, weight, skin color, hair color, eye color, we're, we're very, very similar, which could again lead to problems related to genetic homogenization, limited gene pool in the future, needing to go back and, and sample gametes from the past. Another argument I hear people make related to what you're saying, like an argument for potential genetic manipulation of the human species over time, is that it'll happen really fast. We see this acceleration in our rate of change, rate of our technological development. Those things might indicate that there's some sort of seeding in the past with not just technology but the genetics that allow us to expand our minds and, and develop these things.

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 Well then there's the weird stories from ancient scripts, ancient texts like the Book of Enoch. Like, what, what is that all about? Like, uh, that's some weird stuff-

Michael P. Masters 1:09:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:01 ... where it talks about the watchers-

Michael P. Masters 1:09:02 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 ... coming down from the sky and mating with humans and creating the Nephilim-

Michael P. Masters 1:09:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:07 ... who destroy everything.

Michael P. Masters 1:09:09 Yeah, I might get some shit for this, but I would be willing to bet that all major religions and the little ones have some sort of UFO alien component to the myth and legend that gave rise to them over time.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 It makes sense.

Michael P. Masters 1:09:25 It does. Actually the third book I wrote, Revelation, flips the whole script on Revelation and it, it interjects time travelers, it interjects this, this whole... There was f- for a while there was this question of like whether there was a fight over the timeline, whether the grays were coming back to, because some cataclysm needed to happen and we all went underground and that's why we have big eyes and pale skin, 'cause we had to evolve underground for a while. And then another group, like, trying to keep that from happening. So the book kind of explores that in a fictional capacity, and I wrote it because my friends weren't reading my science books, 'cause they're dense and scientific. And I was like, "Man, you know, what if I wrote a book that's just like a crass sex, drug-fueled exploration of, like, this time travel idea?" And that's where that book came from, and it still ties in all of these same concepts scientifically, but in the sto- like the, the main character is a, uh, intertemporal sex researcher. She goes back in time and just fucks everybody-

Joe Rogan 1:10:25 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 1:10:25 ... to learn what, to learn what sex... An- that was the book I gave you when I got here, actually.

Joe Rogan 1:10:29 Oh, that's-

Michael P. Masters 1:10:30 So it's a weird one.

Joe Rogan 1:10:31 That was right here.

Michael P. Masters 1:10:31 Yeah, it's a weird one. But it was super fun to write, you know. And, and they're like, and, and then her, uh, the professor in this book, he's like the, the, he- he's an intertemporal (laughs) drug kingpin of sorts. Um, but, but it's like, it's exploring these same ideas in a different way, you know? With fiction, it's satire, it's comedy. The, the word most commonly used is it's hilarious. It's a comedy book. You know, 'cause I wanted people that don't read the science books to still be introduced to this concept and the science behind it in a different way. And man, it was so much f- more fun to write than those science books.

Joe Rogan 1:11:06 What do you think of, um, when people start theorizing about some sort of a breakaway civilization that lives under the ocean?

Michael P. Masters 1:11:17 Yeah. So, we actually published a paper about that last June, about the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis. (laughs) You mentioned it on your show in a really funny way, 'cause it went viral internationally. It was absolutely insane, the impact this thing had. Um, like I, I had to go on Fox & Friends one morning to talk about it, and then the next day I did-

Joe Rogan 1:11:38 What, what made it go viral? What was the, uh...

Michael P. Masters 1:11:40 Well, 'cause I published it with two guys from Harvard, uh, who was a coauthor on the paper, and so it's clickbait. It's "Harvard researchers say dinosaurs are aliens and they live among you." So stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 1:11:52 Oh. (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 1:11:53 And it worked 'cause (laughs) it, it, I, I, I, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:56 Well it makes you w- go, "What?"

Michael P. Masters 1:11:58 Your, yours was the funniest one, uh, you guys pulled it up on your screen and you were like, "Man, these, these Harvard researchers must've snuck in where they're doing the psilocybin experiments and ate all the mushrooms." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:11 (laughs)

Michael P. Masters 1:12:11 Uh, that cracked me up. Uh, and, uh, I don't think we did. I, I don't remember if we did. I don't think we did. But it definitely had elements of, like, "These guys ate a lot of mushrooms." Uh, which was part of why it went viral. But there were some really solid arguments in there. And the title of the paper was Scientific Openness to the Cryptoterrestrial Idea. That's all we were advocating for. And we listed four main ways in which this cry- te- cryptoterrestrial idea could happen, and the fourth one is what really got clickbait-y 'cause we were like, "Maybe there was a breakaway civilization," that's the cryptoterrestrial idea, but maybe an advanced reptile... Dinosaurs didn't go extinct, and this was, you know, we don't think this actually happened but we're just putting out arguments for what this idea could be. And so yeah, they took that and put, like, dinosaurs at keyboards (tapping) and stuff like that. But, but one of them is time travelers, and it would make sense if you were in the future, instead of jumping back through time in order to study people in a specific time, you set up a base on the far side of the moon, where up until the '60s, '70s we wouldn't know they were there. Set up a base under the oceans, and this would go for the extraterrestrial idea too. Instead of traversing the vast swaths of space-

Joe Rogan 1:13:26 Right.

Michael P. Masters 1:13:26 ... come here, set up under the oceans where we're not gonna find you-

Joe Rogan 1:13:30 Right.

Michael P. Masters 1:13:30 ... Antarctica.... far side of the moon and then you can do everything here locally, instead of having to jump across space, extraterrestrial, or jump across time, extratempestrial.

Joe Rogan 1:13:40 Well, it also explains some of the very strange ways that they've observed tr- crafts moving under the water.

Michael P. Masters 1:13:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:47 Like they've obs- observed crafts moving under the water at 500 knots-

Michael P. Masters 1:13:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:51 ... that are as big as a football field. And apparently, there's video of these things. Apparently, there's... you know, the Navy has-

Michael P. Masters 1:13:58 I've heard that too, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:59 ... something that they filmed that is as big as a football field. It was going essentially 500 miles an hour underwater without any ripples, not disturbing the water at all, not creating a wake.

Michael P. Masters 1:14:09 And then moving right out of them-

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 Yeah.

Michael P. Masters 1:14:10 ... in the transmedium capacity.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 Mm-hmm, yeah. Well, you know, when you think about how little explola- explor- excuse me, exploration, we've done to the bottom of the ocean, it's, we know more about the moon than we do about the surface of the, the actual bottom of the ocean.

Michael P. Masters 1:14:26 Yeah. Yeah, it would be a great