Joe Rogan Experience #2432 - Josh Dubin

Narrator 0:00 (drum beat plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Hello, Michael. How you doing, brother?

Josh Dubin 0:14 Brother Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:15 I can see you again. (laughs)

Josh Dubin 0:16 Nice to see you, man.

Joe Rogan 0:17 What's happening?

Josh Dubin 0:18 Everything's happening. Uh, I got a lot on my mind. I got notes today and everything.

Joe Rogan 0:24 Beautiful. So, let's kick it off. What do you got?

Josh Dubin 0:29 (laughs) No, I, I was just, um ... I, I was thinking that the more you do this work, the more routine the stories would get, and you would start to see fact patterns and situations repeat. But I'm starting to think the more you do it, the more nutty and bizarre it gets, and you find yourself in these situations where you're like, "That can't be. You gotta check that out." So, I, I have, like, multiple cases going on where I feel that way and, um ... And they range from wrongful convictions to why was this person charged in the first place, where you're seeking clemency. I mean, um, yeah, it's a, it's a weird world.

Joe Rogan 1:24 Yeah, your world in particular. The world of wrongfully accused and wrongfully convicted people is a, one of the darkest worlds in the world, because you're taking away a person's freedom.

Josh Dubin 1:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36 And they do it all the time for corruption. They, they do it 'cause they're corrupt. They do it 'cause they're dirty. They do it 'cause they want convictions. They do it 'cause they said someone was guilty and then they just wanna fucking lock them up anyway.

Josh Dubin 1:51 You know, I started to read this, um ... Malcolm Gladwell just published a new book called Revenge or the Tipping Point, and I'm only like 15 pages in. And the way he starts it out is about ... I, I think he's gonna come back to it at the end, but I think it's the opioid scandal. He's leaving it blank until the end of the book, about how when they testified, the executives of the company testified before Congress, that they couldn't bring themselves to apologize or admit that they were wrong, and they keep on using the words, "Our drug has been associated with, associated with addiction." And it's almost this... So I'm starting to think that this inability to admit fault, that you're wrong, um, that you're sorry, it, it, it transcends the legal system. And, uh, you know, I'm starting to believe that the cases where these cops are out to frame someone are far more, um ... Well, maybe not far more, but they're less common than the cases where law enforcement's trying to do the right thing and a detective has a hunch and they just get to where they think they need to be on the evidence by following the hunch, which is often wrong. So, yeah, it's a mix of all that shit.

Joe Rogan 3:31 Yeah, and people don't like to admit they're wrong, ever, especially when it comes to something as crazy as a pharmaceutical drug company releasing some opioid that's gonna kill a million people. Like, they can't admit they're wrong. They almost have to say things like "associated with," especially during hearings.

Josh Dubin 3:49 Yeah, during Congressional hearings I guess there's a lot on the line if there's anything that smells like an admission, right?

Joe Rogan 3:55 Yeah, they can't admit it. They have to not lie, right? Because then they can get hit with perjury. So they come up with different terms, like "associated with."

Josh Dubin 4:05 Yeah. I mean, I'm interested to see where he goes with it. I listen to his podcast a lot. It's actually really good. Um, some of them are good. Revisionist History. Because he's, he's a curious dude, this Malcolm Gladwell.

Joe Rogan 4:20 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 4:20 And, um, you know, some of his stuff I agree with, some I don't. But I like that he looks beneath the surface and tries to figure out what is motivating people or what they're tricking themselves into believing.

Joe Rogan 4:36 Mm.

Josh Dubin 4:37 And I just, uh ... I was watching this Maniscalco bit the other day and he was like, "Can't you just say I'm sorry?"

Joe Rogan 4:45 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 4:46 'Cause (laughs) he's talking about his wife. "That's all I want." And him and this dude are going back and forth. I forget the guy's name on the podcast. Some other comedian. And, uh, it d- the bit is so fucking funny. And, and so I just find myself apologizing all the time. Because what's wrong with just admitting that you're wrong?

Joe Rogan 5:08 Nothing at all. It's good. It's actually a sh- a show of strength. And people that don't recognize that, they just believe that they're never wrong or that they want people to know they're never wrong or think they're never wrong, so they just don't admit it and they just bury it deep inside.

Josh Dubin 5:22 But you find yourself apologizing all the fucking time sometimes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:25 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 5:26 You know, when you're conscious of it. I'm like, "Damn, I apologize a lot." Maybe I didn't do all this shit."

Joe Rogan 5:31 That's probably good. Well, better to apologize for something you didn't do than to not apologize for something you did.

Josh Dubin 5:37 Well, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 5:40 As long as you mean it.

Josh Dubin 5:42 Yeah. Yeah. You gotta mean it. That, that helps.

Joe Rogan 5:46 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 5:46 Meaning it helps.

Joe Rogan 5:46 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 5:47 Just saying it just to get it out of a fight ...

Joe Rogan 5:50 Yeah, that's not good.

Josh Dubin 5:51 It's not good.

Joe Rogan 5:52 It's not worth it.

Josh Dubin 5:53 Um, yeah, I just finished, uh, I just finished this trial on a case that was super important to forensic science. It was actually the namesake of, of my center, the Perlmutters.... uh, the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardozo Law. So, I- Ike and Laurie Perlmutter's DNA was stolen by a neighbor. And, you know, it's a nutty story. You could read about it online. I don't know-

Joe Rogan 6:22 I did read about it online.

Josh Dubin 6:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:24 It's crazy.

Josh Dubin 6:25 Fucking crazy. And ... But I had a, um, I had an expert, a so-called expert on the stand, and there was an email where they, um ... It was an unaccredited DNA lab and someone that worked for him gets the results of DNA testing, one round of the results, and she says, "The good news is we have a full profile. The bad news is it's not associated with the Perlmutters." And I, and I said to him, in words or substance, um, "Why would it ever be bad news for a scientist if w- one particular person was implicated in a crime or not? Aren't they supposed to just give the facts?" And, and in a moment of candor, I think it's one of the few times this has happened in all my years doing this, the guy said, "You know, I wouldn't have used those words, and it had no place." And it wasn't an email that he wrote. It was an email that someone that worked for him wrote. And I almost said right in front of there, "Jerry, good for you, man. That's super rare." And, um, I mean, the case is, is, um ... I think it's an important one for forensic science, because their DNA was stolen at a deposition over some petty shit. It was about a tennis dispute in their community. And they're l- lured to this deposition and their neighbor takes their DNA without their consent.

Joe Rogan 8:04 How did he do it?

Josh Dubin 8:06 He had, um ... He had a former crime scene analyst and some retired, um, deputy chief of police from Toronto, 'cause this guy's from Canada, come down and the former crime scene analyst sits at the deposition, and they planned it all beforehand, and they made sure that they did not handle paper that Ike Perlmutter would handle, and they made sure that no one touched this water bottle that Laurie Perlmutter was gonna handle. And they hand him this phony exhibit, and they had it worked out before that they would only touch the bottom corner of it.

Joe Rogan 8:56 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 8:57 (laughs) And they have, they have a water bottle sitting in front of Laurie Perlmutter, and they ask questions about this dispute over the tennis center and, um ... You know, when they leave, it was treated like a crime scene, and it was like some vigilante justice type of shit, where they send all this stuff to an unaccredited lab, who then sends it to an accredited lab, and instead of waiting for the results to come in from this accredited lab, the unaccredited lab starts interpreting it. And they're having pressure put on them by this man that ultimately accused Ike and Laurie of, you know, being involved in this awful crime.

Joe Rogan 9:47 What was the crime?

Josh Dubin 9:48 All right, so (laughs) it doesn't make sense without context. So here's what happens. Ike Perlmutter is, you know, the former chairman of Marvel. He's, um, very reclusive, by all accounts. He and Laurie don't have children, and they live a very quiet life in Palm Beach. He was an avid tennis player. This is about 14 years ago. Avid tennis player, and he, um, became very friendly with the woman that was the tennis pro. She was a single mother. She would set him up with tennis games and he became friends with her. So, she sold real estate on the side. I mean, this is like a fucking episode of, like, Seinfeld or Curb Your Enthusiasm-

Joe Rogan 10:42 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 10:42 ... at the beginning. Then it, like, goes off the rails and descends into the depths of hell. So, bear with me.

Joe Rogan 10:49 Okay.

Josh Dubin 10:51 So, a man moves into ... Or a man had been living at or moves into their neighborhood and he, um, becomes friends with this other couple who also sell real estate. The wife sells real estate. And apparently, they approach the tennis pro and they're like, "We should team up on real estate." And she's like, "No, it's just my side hustle. I'm gonna do it alone." So this guy from Canada writes this memo, and in the memo, there's all these accusations about this woman, that she could go to federal prison and she's committing ... She could be, you know ... That, that there's bid rigging going on because they never sent her, her, um ... They never sent her tennis pro contract out for bid. It was just kind of like nutty stuff.

Joe Rogan 11:39 Just because she wouldn't go into business with him?

Josh Dubin 11:41 I mean, that's our theory. That's my opinion. And yeah, that was our theory in the case. So Ike stands up for her. He's a very loyal guy. Stands up for the people that he, you know, is friends with, and he thought she was getting bullied. So, she sued the guy for defamation, and Ike and another resident in this condo complex paid for her legal fees. So, about a year later, mail starts to arrive in this community.And it is the most awful shit you have ever heard. And it's accusing the Canadian guy of being a child molester, of being a murderer. It's horrific s- twisted, sick shit. So it's about a year after this tennis center dispute, and there's misspelled Hebrew words and Jewish stars all over it. So this guy thinks, naturally, that Ike and his wife are behind it. Like they have nothing better to do. All right. So, uh, because he's so convinced that they did it, and, or that they were involved and he, you know, initially suspected that other people might be involved, this guy's going around and swabbing DNA off of... With a Q-tip, off of cars. He's digging through trash in the condo community, and he's like on this mission to collect people's DNA. So he calls them to a deposition about the tennis center case, and that's where this all went down. So once they collect their DNA, this unaccredited lab claims that DNA taken off of the hate mail matches Laurie Perlmutter's DNA from the water bottle at the deposition. The problem was that this unaccredited lab didn't wait for the report from the accredited lab, and that run of the DNA that this woman was relying on, the accredited lab discarded it because the man that actually did the testing contaminated the machine. And he knew it, so he didn't rely on it. So years and years and years go by, and well after they knew that Laurie had nothing to do with this... In fact, in 2017, a man got arrested in Canada and he got arrested because a package got intercepted at Homeland s- at the border by Homeland Security, and it had samples of the hate mail, latex gloves, th- eh, you know, in the package. And it was a former business associate of this Canadian guy and their relationship went sour, and I thought the case was over. You know, in 2019, I believe, the guy gets arrested again and there's a detailed affidavit, so it's clear that this man is responsible for it. So, in any event, in 2016 the, um... I believe it was 2016, there's an article in the fucking Deal Book in the New York Times saying that Laurie Perlmutter DNA is on that hate mail. And then there's another one in the Globe and Mail, which is a big Canadian paper. So it was a defamation case against this guy and against this lawyer for Chubb because Chubb helped... This Chubb lawyer, Federal Insurance, also known as Chubb, helps him draw up the blueprints for collecting their DNA at the deposition. So, um, it was a super gratifying case. We won a $50 million verdict and res- you know, he was found liable for defamation, abuse of process, which is abuse of the legal process, and, you know, it's taken Ike and Laurie all of these years to have their name restored in court. And they've s- uh, they'd kill me if I admitted it and it'd be a violation of their confidence in my professional obligation, but they've spent an untold fortune and, you know, the case is important for forensic science 'cause DNA is supposed to be the Holy Grail. And you can't have private citizens running around trying to collect people's DNA without knowing what they're doing. You could be leaning on someone and have good intentions to get results, but if I told you or if I said to Jamie, "Here's my suspect. Take a look at these fingerprints and tell me if they match him or her," or, "Here's my suspect. Here's their genetic profile. Tell me if it matches," you don't realize the... Uh, I mean, sometimes the error rate skyrockets by as much as 50%, with fingerprints over 80%. And fingerprint analysts will agree and they will say, "Yeah, I know that that happens, and if someone tells me who the suspect is and only who the suspect is and I'm comparing it, I think the error rate goes up, but not with me."

Narrator 17:09 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 17:10 Not with me. I mean, again, it's that phenomenon where-

Narrator 17:13 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 17:13 ... you just can't think that you would be biased. So, look, the case was super important because I think it reasp- but beyond restoring their name and, you know, it's the namesake of the center where we do this work, it also preserves the integrity of forensic science and especially DNA, which is really one of the few, um, super reliable forms of forensic science. But even that, when put in the wrong hands or if it's exposed to subjectivity and people's belief that they have the right person, it's vulnerable, and science shouldn't be vulnerable.It should be ... It's either A or B. It's either yes or no, especially with DNA.

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Josh Dubin 18:59 So-

Narrator 18:59 Can I ask you a question?

Josh Dubin 19:00 Yeah.

Narrator 19:01 When you said that her, uh ... The evidence against her, the DNA evidence had to be thrown out because the machine was contaminated-

Josh Dubin 19:08 Yeah.

Narrator 19:09 ... how was it contaminated, and how did that implicate her DNA?

Josh Dubin 19:12 So, what happens is, um, when you're ... I don't want to go too deep into DNA analysis, but it is actually interesting. When you're conducting DNA testing, the manufacturer of the machine, um ... I think it's called the PowerPlex Plus. They ask you to run what's called a positive control and a negative control to make sure that the machine is correctly calibrated. Because it's ... What it's doing through electrophoresis, um, is shooting out what's called an electropherogram on the other end so that you're able to, um ... You're able to do what they g- what they ... What's referred to as calling alleles. So you're recalling, you know, chromosome pairing at a specific genetic marker. All right? So ... And they called them ... There's m- m- ... Various different loci, or locations, where there are ... You either have two alleles or one. You get one from your mom, one from your fob- ... One from your mom (laughs) , one from your dad. And sometimes the one from your father might not show but your mother's will show, but there'll be two alleles at most, at a specific location. So they want to make sure that the machine is working properly, so the manufacturer has the lab analyst every time you do it, run a positive control. Meaning that you'll put a solution through the machine, and it should, on the other end, give you very specific results. And he accidentally pipetted or took the solution from her DNA mixture instead of from the positive control mixture and put that through the machine, so when he was running the test, her DNA is already mixed in there.

Narrator 21:11 Oh.

Josh Dubin 21:12 But he realized he made a mistake, so when he issued his report, he didn't rely on that run. Because when I say run, it's another, um ... It's another ... You'll run the DNA on different occasions and sometimes on different dates, because you want to make sure that your genetic profile will never change. My genetic profile will never change. So, when you are looking at somebody's genetic profile, it should be consistent. So when he saw that, wait a second, the first run of this doesn't match the second and third or f- or the fourth, he realized he made a mistake. But without having the lab analyst that's doing the interpretation, you know, weighing in on the results, and you're antsy to get an answer, and you're r- leaning on an unaccredited lab, saying, "Interpret the results! Interpret the results! Money's no object," there's an email that said that. You know, instead of waiting, she relies on this run of the DNA. And, you know, then what happens happened. But at some point, this Canadian guy came to learn what actually happened and kept on going.

Narrator 22:32 Wow.

Josh Dubin 22:32 And kept on going and kept on going. And there was evidence that he wanted hundreds of millions of dollars from my clients. You know, I think what turned out to be a shitty situation for him, because no doubt, getting hate mail like that has to be disturbing and-

Narrator 22:50 I just have to ask you.

Josh Dubin 22:51 ... upsetting to the family.

Narrator 22:52 Did it turn out that he had any sort of relationship with the Canadian man who was sen- sending him the hate mail?

Josh Dubin 22:56 Yeah. That was his former ... One of his former business colleagues-

Narrator 23:00 Oh.

Josh Dubin 23:00 ... who he ha- he had a vicious falling-out with, and he kept it from everyone.

Narrator 23:06 Oh.

Josh Dubin 23:06 So I think that the inference, in my opinion, the inference is that at some point ... And, and in fact, there's an allegation in the hate mail where it says, "You were involved in the murder of these two people." He accuses this man in Canada, months after the hate mail began to arrive, of spreading that rumor, so I believe that he knew it was him the whole time.

Narrator 23:31 Oh.

Josh Dubin 23:31 And at some point, I believe he was trying to shake the Perlmutters down.

Narrator 23:36 Oh.

Josh Dubin 23:37 So-

Narrator 23:37 So he wanted money from them, otherwise he was gonna go public?

Josh Dubin 23:41 And he went public. (laughs)

Narrator 23:42 Oh. How much did he request?

Josh Dubin 23:45 M- d- you know, look, there's an article in the Globe and Mail saying that he wants $600 million.

Narrator 23:53 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 23:53 There was an article, uh ... He admitted on the stand that it was $100 million. His, his, um ...

Narrator 23:59 So he was just trying to get paid.

Josh Dubin 24:00 His te- ... Well, that's my opinion.Dell- that was the jury's opinion.

Joe Rogan 24:05 Yeah, what- what's his background? What does he do?

Josh Dubin 24:06 He was some embattled... In my opinion, an embattled, um, businessman in Canada. He had like a re- executive recruiting company, but there was all sorts of public information out there that he was... Worked on the Toronto Harbor Commission, and then b- been involved in what the press called cloak and dagger campaigns, where he was wasting public funds, so, you know, he bragged about all the lawsuits he's been involved in. So, I think the jury saw through it and, um, you know... Look, again, sometimes you become really close with your clients, and that's not always a great thing. Um, I'm guilty of that a lot. But these are wonderful people, reclusive, they give most of their money away to charity and to watch these people get dragged through the mud for over a decade and, you know, there was evidence in the case that... This- this is interesting because I initially fought this. On the day, the first day of jury selection, they had been invited to go to Mar-a-Lago and sit at the president's table for a Halloween party. It was just prospective jurors filling out questionnaires. So the defense, and it was really, I think, the attorneys for Chubb or for the lawyer that worked for Chubb, wanted to introduce evidence. They got photos of the party and they wanted to introduce this evidence and there was one day during the trial where they went to the White House because one of their close friends, um, was appointed to be the ambassador for India, and they used that against them during the trial and I fought it tooth and nail. And then I finally said, "You know what? Fuck it. I'm gonna let it come in." I stopped fighting it and I, um, I knew that the jurors, on their questionnaire, had filled out who they publicly admired most and least. Two of them wrote they admired the president the most. One of them said they admire him the least. So I really had to speak to that juror and say, during my closing argument, "You know, what they're doing here is they're trying to say that Laurie Perlmutter's reputation doesn't matter, that she can't emote and suffer humiliation or public ridicule and that you should disregard her because of who she's friends with, who she votes for, the fact that her husband was... came here and literally with $200 in his pocket and, you know, ascended." It's the- the weird paradox about success, you know, you get there and people are like, "Oh, these fucking rich people," but these are like... They represent the best in all of us. Um, Laurie Perlmutter, with her free time, started a... work at the gift shop at NYU and... because she liked the feeling of selling flowers and little gifts to people that were going through terrible times, and she ends up becoming a board member at NYU and they give fif- $50 million to start the Perlmutter Cancer Center. I mean, who among us wouldn't want to a- aspire to that? And they were trying to say, "But she doesn't matter." At one point, she was asked the question, you know, because with defamation, your reputation is on the line, right? And you have to argue reputational damage. And they said, "Well, isn't your reputation bound up in your husband's?" And they said this to a jury of like four or five women and I- I thought, "What a dumb fucking thing to say," in my opinion at least. It was like... And I- I was able to say to them during the closing, "They're saying she doesn't matter and that she does... she's not her own person. Her reputation..." So it's like these little victories, um, help restore my faith in the system because if billionaires can get awarded $50 million, which is what they got awarded, I think that that's the jury saying, "Her reputation mattered." And not only did her reputation matter, but it mattered to the point where, um, you can't just tear somebody down when you know the facts and-

Joe Rogan 28:48 It just seems so insane that he would pursue that. I mean, the guy literally owns the Ike Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice and you're like, "Yeah, I'm gonna test that."

Josh Dubin 28:59 I mean-

Joe Rogan 28:59 "I'm gonna test that justice, just bullshit my way." I mean-

Josh Dubin 29:03 The- the- the irony of that is that the center was born out of their experience in this case.

Joe Rogan 29:09 Really?

Josh Dubin 29:09 Yeah. The center was born out of... At one point, I was offered this role to start a new post-conviction center. Up until four years ago, five years ago, I did work at the Innocence Project and when I was offered this position at the same law school, at Cardozo Law, where the Innocence Project was born, they said, "If you get that role, the Perlmutters, we're gonna fund it for the first 10 years because we realize that if you're wrongfully accused in this country of a crime you didn't commit, if you don't have the resources to fight it like we did, that you're really in trouble." And for them to have that kind of insight while going through this, uh, i- you know, it's- it's remarkable. I'm indebted to them for life. I mean, they've become like surrogate family to me, but yeah, the center was born out of their experience in this case.

Joe Rogan 30:07 So good came out of it. (laughs) Does the guy have the money to pay them?

Josh Dubin 30:12 I don't, I don't know. I don't know, but I'm gonna find out.

Joe Rogan 30:15 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 30:17 About, uh, you know, we have post-trial motions that the judge has to decide and then, you know, once we get, hopefully we get the judgment entered. Um, Ike is not the guy to pick a fight with. He was standing up for his wife's honor really and, um, look, sometimes you pick a fight with the wrong person and you, what do they say? You fuck around and find out.

Joe Rogan 30:44 There's a lot of people that fuck around a lot until they find out. And it sounds like this guy might have been one of those people.

Josh Dubin 30:52 I don't know. I don't know. I mean-

Joe Rogan 30:54 Perhaps?

Josh Dubin 30:54 Perhaps.

Joe Rogan 30:56 Allegedly? It just seems like there's people that are involved in conflict their whole fucking life, man. And they never get out of that pattern.

Josh Dubin 31:04 I don't get it.

Joe Rogan 31:05 Yeah. Unhealthy people. They develop a pattern. They develop a pattern of thinking and behaving, you know?

Josh Dubin 31:13 Well, I don't know if it's the empath in me, but I try to see like what are you thinking? Why can't you realize I've, I've gone down the wrong path, let me course correct.

Joe Rogan 31:27 Mm.

Josh Dubin 31:28 And you just end up with theories. I mean, look, I, um, I can understand why a former detective might be concerned about liability, so they can't just say, "Well, here's what I was up to all this time." I guess I can understand that. But I can understand the thinking in not just saying, "I've gone down the wrong path." And some people start to believe their own lies, I think. Some people start to believe their own theories. Um, human psychology is like, it's vast and abstract and so complicated on some level.

Joe Rogan 32:19 It varies. Varies from individual to individual.

Josh Dubin 32:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:23 What they can justify, what they can sort of rationalize in their head.

Josh Dubin 32:30 Look, I told you at the beginning that there's only been like a handful of cases where I was like, "Oh, that can't be." There's some- there's gotta be something missing from that story that you're not telling me. But wa- watch this. Two officers in 1998 were on patrol in New York City, in Brooklyn, on Pitken Avenue. Gunfire breaks out and literally as they're rolling down the street, the gunfire breaks out. One of the officers looks to his left and sees the muzzle flash of the gun that was used to kill this young man, Trevor Viera. He exits the patrol car, draws on the man and says, "Drop the gun." The guy's pointing the gun still that was used to shoot Trevor Viera and there's a tense moment. And this officer has testified that there was a 14-year-old girl in the area or he otherwise would have just shot the guy. So, he literally catches the murderer with the gun smoking in his hand. Well, I've used that expression over the past two decades. "Oh, it's a smoking gun." This is the fucking smoking gun. He finally drops the gun. His name is Eduardo, uh, Eduardo Rodriguez. He's put in handcuffs and, you know, you get documents as you're going through the discovery process during post-conviction. You get it from the prosecutor or from the police. And there's a radio call by a, a serg- a detective that says, "Perps in custody." Contemporaneous with the arrest. They arrest two men. One guy standing next to him and the guy that Eduardo Rodriguez had shot the gun. He's placed under arrest, he's brought to the precinct, and he's delivered into the arms of no other than one of the most corrupt, sadistic detectives to ever work homicide in Brooklyn, in my opinion, Louis Scarcella. Now, why should that name sound familiar to you or to others? Because Louis Scarcella is the guy that framed Derrick Hamilton, who's the Deputy Director of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardozo. Louis Scarcella and his partner, I think his, his name is Chmil or Chmil, Chmil, it's C-H-M-I-L, um, these guys were so notorious for framing people for murders they didn't commit that there have been 21 cases where people's convictions were vacated where they were the lead detectives, 21. Derrick's is one of them. So Edwar- Eduardo Rodriguez is delivered to the precinct, smoking gun in his hand, and a couple of hours later-... he's brought to the home of Nelson Cruz, who was 17 years old at the time, 16 turning 17. And it's the story of these cops that while he was in the precinct, that he was yelling and screaming and tearing the place up, "I didn't do it. Uh, Nelson Cruz did it. He shot him and ran and dropped the gun and I just picked it up." The officer that arrested him never saw Nelson Cruz, he didn't see someone shoot and drop a gun. The story is literally ludicrous. Nelson Cruz is arrested and charged with murder. So when I heard the story, I was like, "There's no fucking way that this is what happened. You're leaving something out." And I then read the trial transcript. There's another guy that shows up at the precinct named Andre Bellinger. And Andre Bellinger says, "Yeah. I saw Nelson Cruz do it too." And he shows up at the precinct and he's told what kind of gun was used, he's told that Nelson Cruz is the suspect, and then he picks him out of a lineup after being told we're gonna put Nelson Cruz in a lineup.

Narrator 37:46 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 37:46 All three of those things are gross violations of, um, investigatory practices and this has been established for decades. So this guy ends up put on trial and they somehow claim that they don't have, um... They can't locate this guy that is saying that he witnessed the crime. They can't locate him. He's not around to be located. So this... The, the person who had the gun in his hand that is shooting the gun, who they believe, who v- who says Nelson Cruz did it, at Nelson Cruz's trial, he's nowhere to be found. Wouldn't you think that the prosecutors would put that man, Eduardo Rodriguez, on the stand so he could explain how he picked up the gun? He could explain, "What did you see? You saw Nelson Cruz do this and he ran and dropped the gun?" And he's never put on the stand. It's like a three-day trial. The only person put on the stand that claimed to have been a witness is this guy, Andre Bellinger. So, I mean, some people have, like, bad luck, shitty luck, or cataclysmic, fucking, um, apocalyptically bad luck, and Nelson Cruz just happens to have, you know, won that shit lottery. Nelson Cruz ends up before a judge about eight years ago and... About six years ago. And it's a post-conviction hearing, and this guy, Andre Bellinger, who claims that he watched Nelson Cruz do it, um, is outed as a liar. There are eyewitnesses that were with him that night who said, "He wasn't at that murder scene. He was, like, blocks away with me." He was outed as a liar on so many different occasions it becomes like... It would become laughable if it wasn't so serious. After these post-conviction proceedings during which 20-some-odd witnesses were called, the courtroom is packed on the day of the decision because the expectation amongst the press and in the legal community is Nelson Cruz is about to get exonerated. This judge had exonerated people that had been, um, investigated by Louis Scarcella, and she's acting kind of weird and erratic, and she rules against Nelson Cruz and contradicts herself on multiple occasions and... This is in 2019. And we lay- Or 2020. And we later learn she never takes the bench again and she resigns because she has advanced-stage Alzheimer's disease.

Narrator 41:13 Oh, Jesus.

Josh Dubin 41:15 I have an affidavit that... From an investigator that says her husband said that she had been suffering from these symptoms for years before. There was a judicial, um, complaint filed because she wasn't showing up to court. Uh, there's a ProPublica article about it, about this whole debacle. And, you know, it's stories like this... And it... So the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice, um, is working on the case and, you know, thankfully, we're before the Conviction Integrity Unit in Brooklyn and it's led by a, a really special guy, Eric Gonzalez, who's the district attorney in Brooklyn, and he listens to these cases. He has a real conviction integrity unit. So I'm hopeful that once we present the case to them, um, that we'll get him some relief. But to think about... He was paroled in 2023. He's a mess.He walks around nervous. He's got terrible anxiety, i- para... He's a wonderful guy. And he's, he's so stone-cold innocent, and you just wonder wh- how and why this shit can happen to someone. And, you know, it's like the, the perfect constellation of, like, you got this, these crooked detectives who have already been found to have ruined a bunch of people's lives. You have the smoking gun found in the hand of the murderer, who mysteriously disappears. And if you're wondering, so why, why do they believe this guy? How does he go to the precinct and he raises hell and says, "Nelson Cruz did it and I picked up the gun," even though there's no evidence of that? What would be your guess?

Joe Rogan 43:08 Well, he's probably some sort of a witness on something else.

Josh Dubin 43:13 It was pretty well-known back at the time that Louis Scarcella, other detectives in Brooklyn Homicide in, in all the boroughs had informants. I mean, that's my best guess. Why else would you just beli- ... And they, they've gone as far as to try to discredit their own and say, "Well, Piotti must not have seen him drop the gun and run." This guy has been th- consistent throughout. He hears the gunfire, looks, sees the muzzle flash. He literally witnesses the murder. So, you know, there was an F- there was a joint FBI task force with the NYPD going at the time, so yeah, they relied on informants.

Joe Rogan 43:56 Where's ... What's the state of the guy who actually committed the murder currently?

Josh Dubin 44:00 He's out.

Joe Rogan 44:01 Jesus.

Josh Dubin 44:02 He's running around the streets. Who knows where he is?

Joe Rogan 44:05 So if your guy gets exonerated, does this guy get tried?

Josh Dubin 44:12 No. That very rarely happens. That ver- I mean-

Joe Rogan 44:16 So that guy just committed murder and he's free.

Josh Dubin 44:19 Oh, that's happened. You know how many times that's happened to anyone that's done post-conviction work?

Joe Rogan 44:24 So you ... But you don't even think that's a possibility.

Josh Dubin 44:27 Mmm.

Joe Rogan 44:27 You're, you're just d- dismissing it. Like, "No, the, the murderer is gonna go free."

Josh Dubin 44:31 Yeah. Um, because in order for me to, um, expect that that would happen would be to defy logic as I know it in this world. Because think about what happens. If a municipality, um, admits, "We did something horrible and it was a mistake and we did the wrong thing," um, there's gonna be a civil rights lawsuit. I mean, look, to Brooklyn's credit, with this DA, they have done that and done the right thing. But in terms of them going after the person that they think did it, you know, it's 2000 almost 26, and this crime happened in 1998. It's 30 years later. To be able to reassemble the witnesses and some of whom are probably dead or hard to find, um, but it's very rare that once there's an exoneration and you're able to point to who the true killer is, very rare that, um ... law enforcement will go after the person that defense counsel has established actually did it.

Joe Rogan 45:45 That's insane.

Josh Dubin 45:47 Is it?

Joe Rogan 45:48 Yeah. Because if the defense counsel has ruled that this other guy is innocent, and that the police officer did see the guy execute that person, how do you not try that person with murder?

Josh Dubin 46:04 (clears throat) Now you're, you're stumbling into the how could that b- the, the how could that be's of our legal justice system.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Right.

Josh Dubin 46:12 It just ... It doesn't happen. I mean, Clem- Clemente Aguirre, who I've talked about before, who was exonerated from death row, um ... You know, if there's any doubt about this phenomenon of children killing their parents, uh, I think that that was laid to rest a few days ago. It happens. It happens a lot more than, than was recently publicized. You know, the real killer was the daughter of this, of her mother and her grandmother. Clemente Aguirre gets, you know, charged, put on death row and, in the middle of his retrial, you know, she all but confessed on the stand to me. They have her blood mixed with her b- mother's blood at the crime scene and in a trail leading to the bathroom where the killer cleaned up. She confessed on six or seven different occasions, not under duress, not to law enforcement, to various people around town. "She's roaming the streets."

Joe Rogan 47:13 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 47:13 The, the day that Clemente got exonerated, I, I, you know, like ... I, I said ... (laughs) You know, I think I might have quoted, like, Jim Morrison. I was like, "There's a killer on the roam and she's in Kentucky and you better go get her." You know? And they were like, "Ah, objection." That's w- you know? But yeah, it happens. I mean, sh- it's my belief that she's f- she's stone-cold guilty and they haven't gone after her, and that happens a lot. I mean, look, the word exoneration is thrown around, but it's certain ... Like, Derek's case is rare. He was declared actually innocent. Sometimes the conviction gets vacated. Sometimes it, um ... You know, they decide not to retry the person and agree to time served. But you're pushing a massive boulder up a steep hill every time. Like, Nelson Cruz should not have to carry this weight around anymore. He's had other lawyers that have done a great job representing him. You know, we've come in now-

Joe Rogan 48:18 How much time did he wind up doing?

Josh Dubin 48:22 I think 26 years.

Joe Rogan 48:24 Jesus.

Josh Dubin 48:26 Dang. Yep. Yeah, it's horrifying.

Narrator 48:29 Jesus.

Josh Dubin 48:30 I mean, when you've done so much time that you've paroled out and are still trying to prove your innocence?

Narrator 48:36 Jesus. Oh.

Josh Dubin 48:41 I, I hate to give you indigestion on a ... I mean, but it's, this is like ... I, I'm past tears at this point. I'm, I'm more like, we just gotta keep going and keep fighting. And when you get these little victories here and there, like, we've had a few releases recently that were super encouraging, where you're able to get people a second chance, where you're able to, you know, get, get it to the point where they could, even though they didn't do it, plead guilty. We just had a, a release, um, she was actually my co-counsel in the Clemente Aguirre case, uh, Maury Palmer, and our client pled guilty, but we believe he's innocent. He did it to get out. He had done 24 years and he'd had enough. But for her to get it to the place where he could even plead guilty after serving all that time, you know, innocent people plead guilty all the time.

Narrator 49:46 Yeah, they do, just to get a lighter sentence.

Josh Dubin 49:50 Yep.

Narrator 49:51 It's a dirty business you're in, buddy.

Josh Dubin 49:55 Filthy.

Narrator 49:57 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 49:58 (laughs) It's filthy, and it's got all these tentacles because if you're doing post-conviction work, um, it's not just the wrongfully accused and convicted, it's also, you know, we do clemency work, commutations and pardons. We, um ... You start to wade into the h- the human mess and

Josh Dubin 50:28 you see that, like, people have made mistakes and are worth a second chance. What they do with it is up to them, but some of the stuff you can't explain. Some of these prosecutions are political. Look, I'm dealing with a case right now that's like at the intersection of wrongful conviction and what the fuck are we doing with our immigration policy in this country? And I don't even want to mention his name because I don't want to, uh, you know ... Or the state, because I don't want to sacrifice the good work that we're doing to get him a public hearing, but I can say this much: this is a guy from Albania that came to this country in the early '70s and had to sit in a refugee camp in Italy for damn near a month under horrid conditions just to come here to try to live a, a life. He's in his early 20s. He's at a gas station. He has a $100 bill for $5 of gas. He goes into the gas station, the guy takes the $100 bill, he doesn't have change. He says, "When you get $5 back, come back. I'm gonna hold on to this $100 bill." And they get into an argument. He won't give him back the $100 bill. So, he leaves and goes to get his brother, and he tells his brother about it. They return to the gas station, they have a gun in the back seat of their car. His brother tells him, "You stay here. I'm gonna go in and try to talk some sense into this guy and get your money back, give him five bucks." My client's sitting in the car, and gunshots erupt. He goes in the back seat, gets the gun, goes around to the side, comes into the gas station. Uh, comes into the, um, you know the ... You remember back in the '80s where the, you would go in to pay?

Narrator 52:55 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 52:56 And there would be, like, a little, a little front desk area?

Narrator 53:01 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 53:01 And the gas station attendant is holding the gun, and he looks to his left and his brother is bleeding out. The gas station attendant had shot his brother in the stomach. Still holding the gun, shaking, he shoots him one time, dead. Shoots the gas station attendant dead. His brother miraculously survives, and he's put on trial for murder, and he goes to trial the first time. Remember, he's in his early 20s. And it's a hung jury. Most of them are in favor of acquittal. Goes to trial a second time and gets convicted. The judge must have seen that this was damn near as close to self-defense as it gets. He got sentenced to, like, four to seven years. He was out in just under four years. He had become an accomplished boxer in prison. He's lived the last 51 years of his life without so much as a traffic ticket. He goes to New York, joins the union as a super for buildings. He pays taxes, social security, pays into his pension, builds a life for himself, has five kids, eight grandchildren.... and he's living in Upstate New York. Leaves the country couple of years ago to go to Albania to see family, comes back and gets stopped at the border. Somehow is not detained at the border, but they start removal proceedings on him.

Narrator 54:56 Why?

Josh Dubin 54:57 Because there is-

Narrator 54:59 Is he a citizen at this point?

Josh Dubin 55:00 No, he's not, but he's a-

Narrator 55:01 Does he have a green card?

Josh Dubin 55:01 Yeah. He's a green card holder.

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Josh Dubin 56:24 He's exactly who we would want in this country, a guy that comes here and ma- and by the way, I want to mention the state. There are self-defense laws that did not exist then. Many states have stand your ground laws. I think under different circumstances he doesn't even... And if the laws had evolved, he doesn't even get charged. I mean, you see your brother shot, and the facts are not in dispute a-about this. I've researched it exhaustively. You know, isn't that the type of person we want who has contributed to the society for 51 years and built a family?

Narrator 57:03 What, what happened with the brother and the attendant?

Josh Dubin 57:06 They got into an argument and he called... The attendant called him some Alb- some slur against Albanians and they started to argue and he just shot him in the stomach. There's... This isn't even... It's not in dispute at all what happened. And there's a law that if you committed a violent crime, you're removable, but for 51 years he was not removed from this country and he lived here, um, as a green card holder and he paid taxes and he built a family and a life and now-

Narrator 57:45 So, this removal was all during the Biden administration?

Josh Dubin 57:47 No. Unfortunately it was during the Trump administration.

Narrator 57:51 But you said it was two years ago.

Josh Dubin 57:53 It was when he was first, um, when he was first asked at the airport and they flagged him, I believe it was during the Biden administration, but no enforcement action was taken. It was during the current, and this isn't an indictment of the President, this is just during the current administration that they started removal proceedings against him to try to have him removed from the country.

Narrator 58:21 So, did, did they just go through all the old cases and find out anybody that had any sort of a violent offense?

Josh Dubin 58:28 I believe, I believe that that's what happened. I, nobody knows, but that's what I believe happened. So, again, I made the mistake, or maybe it's a virtue at this point, um, of getting to know this family and, um, I, I've met every sibling. There's two boys and three girls and they're literally like some of the most wonderful people I've ever met. I wish I didn't like them as much as I did and I stay in close contact with, um, one of the... I mean, I guess I could give first names with, with one of the sons, Anthony, and his sister, Joanna, and to see the love that they have for their father and the, the fear that they're living under that this man could get deported and sent to Montenegro.

Narrator 59:19 Why Montenegro?

Josh Dubin 59:20 Because that's where y- you get sent if you're Albanian, if you have Albanian citizenship.

Narrator 59:29 Why, why there though?

Josh Dubin 59:30 I think that that's the protectorate of Albania at this point.

Narrator 59:34 Oh, okay.

Josh Dubin 59:35 So, um, and to watch them, they went to one removal proceeding and the judge, I have the transcripts of the proceeding and the judge is like saying to the prosecutors... At one point he said, "What are you doing here?" He starts speaking Albanian to my client and... Look, I don't know immigration law that well. I'm not an immigration lawyer, but I spoke to the immigration lawyer and he's like, "Look, I'm afraid that they're gonna take him." I mean, ICE is waiting outside courthouses and they're gonna take this guy, he's in his 70s, take him away from his family and his grandchildren? So, again, you don't just see these wrongful conviction cases, you see cases that are like, this man has built a life and if you start to get beneath the surface and you see the pain and agony and fear that people are living, um, it's, it's... They're living it day to day. We were able to get a delay into February for his removal proceeding, so I'm now trying to get him pardoned because if he gets pardoned there's no-... basis upon which to remove him. And, you know, we have a team at my center that's working on it, and you want... These are the kind of people you want to fight for once you get to know them. So, I, um, there's like... I don't want to just tell nightmare after nightmare, but the reason why it's important, I think, for people to hear this is it's not just what you're seeing on TV or what you're hearing about. I mean, what basis do we have to remove a grandfather who's lived here for 50 years and contributed to this society and paid his taxes and paid into Social Security and was part of a union? And just, like, I'm looking for a flaw. I really am. I'm looking for, like, a reason for me not to like them, and I just get drawn in more and more. They're just wonderful people and th- these are the kinds of things that are, like, worth fighting for.

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 I think what's going on with ICE is one of the things that's going on with quotas for speeding tickets and things along those lines, is that they have numbers that they want to achieve and they've openly talked about this-

Josh Dubin 1:01:57 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 ... that they want to remove a certain amount of people per week. And when they do that, I think everything's on the table. Then they start showing up at Home Depot. Instead of, like, looking for gangbangers and looking for criminals and cartel members, they're- they go to whatever's easiest pickings so they can get numbers up. Uh, uh, there's, um... Do you know Ed Calderon? Do you know who he is?

Josh Dubin 1:02:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Um, he's, uh... He worked, uh... He was a Mexican military guy who, uh, now is an American citizen, but he, uh, reports extensively on the cartels, and just was telling me some horror stories about ICE raids. And one of them was they took this guy who'd been brought over here when he was a baby but didn't have American citizenship. His family w- Yeah. ... you know, came over here illegally. Lived here for 20 years. Can't speak Spanish. They deport him, send him to Tijuana.

Josh Dubin 1:02:53 Can't speak Spanish?

Joe Rogan 1:02:54 Can't speak Spanish. Does not speak Spanish. He is essentially an American citizen. He just... Never lived anywhere else. He just doesn't have the paperwork. He's not a criminal. They sent him over to Tijuana, and now he has to live in Mexico. He c- he doesn't know what the fuck to do. His law- he's on the streets. Has no idea. He doesn't have any money.

Josh Dubin 1:03:16 Uh, yeah, I don't understand. I wish that there was... It's... It's sort of a black box, immigration, um, in terms of what is... What the policy exactly is. And why do you want to continue this narrative that seems to be, again, more of a human rights issue than a political issue? Like, what is the endgame here?

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 The endgame is to get as many illegals out as they can because so many were brought in over the last four years.

Josh Dubin 1:03:49 Well, that's... That's a fair argument. I understand that. But do we want to be getting rid of 70-year-old men that-

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 No.

Josh Dubin 1:04:02 ... really... I mean, I gotta tell you, I have an older brother, and if someone had did something like that to him, I can't tell you I wouldn't have done the same fucking thing.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 Of course. Almost anybody who has family would say that. You go and you see your brother shot and you know the whole circumstances surrounding it. Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:04:23 So I don't... I just don't... And... And it's not... These immigration judges, I've come to learn, don't have much flexibility. You know, there are hard and fast statutes about whether or not someone is considered removable, and... You know, my appeal is really to the prosecutors, like, "Why are you doing this?" But then they're following orders from someone above them that's telling them, "This is your case. You're assigned to it. Do the best job you can." So, that kind of shit just rolls downhill, unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:04:58 (exhales) And... And, you know, I try not to... I try not to wear this, um... For my own mental health, I'm trying to keep the empath in me in check a little bit more, because... But sometimes it's difficult. Like Nelson's case, this case that I'm talking about. And the only reason I'm not using names in that case is I don't want to alienate. There's great people in the state that this happened in, which wasn't New York, that I think actually care and have shown that, "Yeah, this is... Doesn't seem right, and we want to make sure that you get a public hearing." Um, I'm confident that we will before February, and I like my chances if we do, because I think that this story... He's worth pardoning. He's worth saving. Um, but, you know, I don't... I don't understand. I mean, that's what I... What I meant by this human mess. It's like... I wish there was a more transparent process of how and why people get pardons, certainly on the state and on the federal level. I don't get it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:12 Well, I mean, the... The nuttiest thing is that the president can pardon people. That he could just decide, because you're the president or the governor. He could just decide, "This person, um, I like him." He could just do it.

Josh Dubin 1:06:28 It's an ama- it's an amazing, um, responsibility, and it's kind of an awesome power to have, and how you go about exercising it becomes-... challenging, right? Because-

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 Well, it gets real weird. Like, how about during the Biden Administration, when some of 'em, Biden clearly didn't even sign the pardons? It was all autopen, and he had the most pardons of any president ever. So you have political influence, you have people that would like to get someone pardoned, and you know someone inside, "Do you think you can make this happen?" "Well, he's pardoning 9,000 people, fuck it. Let's just throw that one in there."

Josh Dubin 1:07:12 Yeah, I mean, I don't think he's... I don't really know the autopen issue that well. I don't know if he saw those, didn't see them. I don't know what... It's like organized chaos-

Joe Rogan 1:07:27 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 1:07:27 ... for, for every presidency. You know, Bill Clinton pardoned people at the end of his terms that are fucking bananas when you look at them. Biden did it with his son, you know, the-

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 Biden did it with his, with family members that weren't even accused of anything.

Josh Dubin 1:07:45 Preemptive pardons.

Joe Rogan 1:07:46 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:07:46 I don't even know that that was a thing before.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 It never was. He did it with Fauci. Preemptive back to 2014.

Josh Dubin 1:07:54 Yeah, listen-

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 1:07:56 ... I don't l- Uh, some of the pardons that the current administration issues are like, good for him.

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:08:03 Others are like head-scratchers, and you're like, "What the fuck?"

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 Right.

Josh Dubin 1:08:08 But, like, I, you know, what makes one person deserving and another not is a difficult thing to understand. I, like I have... I've been to the White House. I've, I've advocated for pardons. It's a frustrating experience, because you know that there are thousands of people doing the same thing, and you try your best to say, "This is why this case means something." But where it goes from there is hard to understand, I think. I have tremendous respect for and admiration of the current pardon czar, Alice Johnson, because she's been there before. You know, she was actually incarcerated and pardoned by the president, and she's now in that role as the pardon czar.

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 W- who was she pardoned by?

Josh Dubin 1:09:01 President Trump.

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 Wow. During his first term?

Josh Dubin 1:09:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:03 Wow.

Josh Dubin 1:09:04 Yeah. And she's, um...

Joe Rogan 1:09:07 What was she wrongfully accused of?

Josh Dubin 1:09:08 Some drug offense. And she did a ton of time, and she's gone on to become this amazing, um, not just human being, but advocate for people to get second chances, and he designated her the pardon czar. Now, I think between her and getting to the president and making her case for pardons is difficult, 'cause there's layers of influence in between. But, you know, I have, I have cases before them right now that, um, have very prominent people backing them, and, you know, you would hope that they end up, you know, on his desk and seeing, um... getting some relief. I have one client that I know Mike Tyson is, backs him publicly, privately. Uh, he was a childhood friend of his. His name is Spencer Bowens, and, um, you know, uh, he's one of many people that were sentenced under these crazy regimes of like, "Let's weigh, let's weigh the drugs." So what's heavier, crack or cocaine?

Joe Rogan 1:10:33 Cocaine.

Josh Dubin 1:10:34 All right. What's heavier, heroin or crack?

Joe Rogan 1:10:39 Heroin.

Josh Dubin 1:10:39 All right, so they start to weigh... and what's more destructive? Who fucking knows? Crack was pretty damn destructive. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:47 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:10:47 And, you know, they... Spencer's been in prison for more than three decades, un- And he would have been out if these nutty drug laws didn't exist, and if they applied retroactively, since they have been abolished. And he's a guy that's sitting in there and I speak to, and I start to lose hope. Um, I don't lose hope, I start to feel his hopelessness over the phone, because he should've been granted relief in the courts, and he's someone that just really, really deserves to be out. Um, you know, and I, I have, there's a bunch of cases like that where we're trying so hard, and you have to, at the same time, at the same time you express, you know, confidence in the people, um, that are responsible for this stuff, but you also wanna make sure that you're not offending them by saying, "Look, I know you have a bunch of cases." Um, Emry, Emry Jones is another one I, you know, I do a lot of work with Jay-Z's mom, and Jay-Z, we have a found- He has a foundation, I have one, and we mentor college students together in the summer, pay for their last year, um, of college. And Emry is, uh, a childhood friend of, um, of Jay-Z's and has his full support. Roc Nation, you know, Jay-Z's company, they're behind him, and he's another one that was convicted and spent decades in prison for some drug crime, and he's come out and checked every box. He's a mentor, he's a pillar of the community. He's done so many amazing things, but he's under the weight of this old conviction, and he's denied job opportunities, and, you know, you just, you just gotta keep pushing and keep fighting, and hopefully your timing is right and you speak to the right person, and you get good news one day.

Joe Rogan 1:12:49 Boy.

Josh Dubin 1:12:50 But the odds are so-... the odds are so s- I don't want to say stacked against you, but yeah, it's who you know, who has influence at that particular time with the right person in the administration.

Joe Rogan 1:13:05 What kind of punishments are there for people like the, the corrupt guy in Brooklyn that you were talking about? What ever happened to him?

Josh Dubin 1:13:12 He's roaming the streets. He's roaming the streets. And, and-

Joe Rogan 1:13:19 (sighs)

Josh Dubin 1:13:20 ... look, that's the most, you know, the, the cop, Louis Scarcella?

Joe Rogan 1:13:24 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:13:25 He denies any, I mean, in the face of these 21 cases that have been vacated, he denies any wrongdoing.

Joe Rogan 1:13:32 So 21 different people-

Josh Dubin 1:13:34 Twenty-one.

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 ... he incarcerated them-

Josh Dubin 1:13:36 Yeah, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:13:37 ... wrongly?

Josh Dubin 1:13:37 ... you know, one of the things that I'm thinking might be a good idea, because we can all go on the internet and look this shit up. Like, if you look up Louis Scarcella on the internet, I bet you there's a Wikipedia page that talks about his corruption and lists all the people. We could all go on the internet. One of the things that I think has been, um, underused and I think should be part of people's calculus rather than reading a headline or listening to me or you or anyone, is read the trial transcripts. Make your own judgment. I mean, I don't, um, I don't know what better way there is if you want to say, "Well, what actually happened?" What happened at this person's trial that you're ... and why do they deserve a second chance? Listen, there's, there's a, a dear friend of mine who runs an amazing organization called the Reform Alliance. Her name's Jessica Jackson. Fantastic lawyer and, I mean, is in, is in the, the, the bowels of the system fighting for change. And right now there's a bill that the president's own pollster, I forget the guy's name, has found that 80% of MAGA voters support this act. It's called the Safer Supervision Act, and it, it's actually a system that rewards people for when they get out for doing the right thing, so that if you want to make sure that your, you know, when you get out, there are terms of your supervision. How many times you check in with your parole or probation officer? How often are you being subject to drug tests? Is there an end in sight? This act actually is a merit system, and it's heavily supported, um, by Republicans, by Democrats, by everyone in between. And you would hope that something like that would get passed and, and get pushed through, because the Safer Supervision Act is a way that we can reward people for doing the right thing and hold people accountable that aren't doing the right thing when they get out. But, but your question about, like, what happens to the cops or the prosecutors that do this, they have immunity. It's one of the most frustrating things in the world, is that most of these, most of the time, qualified immunity applies.

Joe Rogan 1:16:16 I mean, I could see immunity for a mistake perhaps, but if there's a pattern and it's clearly corruption, and you have a person that is taking away people's freedom, how is there not a crime committed? How is, how are they not convicted or at least charged with crimes?

Josh Dubin 1:16:38 Well, listen, for those listeners that want to get involved in the process and actually make a difference, you gotta get involved. This isn't just like activist speak. You can make a fucking difference, the person that ends up in a position to actually exercise their executive authority, executive clemency, whether it's a governor or a president, you should be a little more invested.

Josh Dubin 1:17:09 I mean, I had this situation, I gave this guy every benefit of the doubt, and I thought I made a breakthrough, and ... I mean, thi- this is almost sadistic, I think, and I'm sure I'll get a bunch of hate mail about this and I could really give a shit. I went through this process with Governor DeSantis in Florida, and I think he was actually fucking with me, to be honest with you, and he listened to the case as a favor, and there's a public hearing of the clemency board, and this guy's name is Michael Giles, and again, read the transcript. Um, as a matter of fact, I brought a passage to read here. This is a- another mind-bender. This guy's in the Air Force. He is in Tampa. He ends up, um, taking leave for the weekend and goes up from Tampa to FAMU in Tallahassee. Never been there before. He has a firearm that he's licensed to carry. He actually went into a police station to get his carry license. Military guy, never been in trouble in his life. Goes up to Tallahassee and a massive fight breaks out in this club where they're at. Literally zero testimony that he has anything to do with this fight.... fight spills out into the parking lot and it's being instigated by one guy. And this guy that's instigating the fight was thrown out of the club and his own friends testified in the trial, "We were afraid he was going to hurt someone bad." My client, Michael Giles, ends up in a car with the people he came there with waiting for the person that had the keys to the car to come out and emerge from this melee. And this fight is going on all around him, people testified they were petrified, and he takes his gun and puts it in his pocket. He's standing there, like on the outskirts of this fight after he gets out of the car and goes to look for his friend that has the keys to the car. The car was left unlocked, but they couldn't leave because there was no ignition key, and he gets sucker punched. And the guy that punched him says, "Yeah, I f- I looked for the first person I could." Hey, don't take it from me. Here's what he said at the trial. Here's what he said at the trial. First of all, they're... his friends are testifying, this is from the trial, right? That he was a- that this man was acting, quote, "Crazy." That they were afraid he was going to, quote, "Attack someone." He was excited and acting crazy and talking and cursing and upset and agitated. "Were you concerned that he was gonna attack someone?" Question. Answer, "Yes, I was." "Or get in a fight?" Answer, "Yes, I was. That's why I told him to leave." And that's why he was told to leave the club, because he was wanting to fight someone. Isn't that correct? Witnesses testify, que- question, "You saw Courtney Thrower," this is the guy that punched my client, "jump on the individual with the plaid shirt, didn't you?" The guy with the plaid shirt is my client, "Yes, I did." "Your testimony is Courtney Thrower leapt and attacked Mr. Giles from the front." "Yeah, I was... That was the thing." "Courtney then leaps toward Mr. Giles and takes a swing at his face." And it goes on and on and on, that he took a running start, left his feet, and punched my client in the face. And, look, there's a melee going on, so he's on the ground after getting punched and, and the person that punched him didn't hold back. He was asked at the trial, question, "Mr. Thrower, is it your testimony that you ran with your entire body to strike this person?" Answer, "Yes." Question, "So you, at a full run or a sprint, used the weight of your body to impact this person in the head?" Answer, "Yes." Question, "Was it your intention to knock him out?" Answer, "Yes, it was." Question, "And is there any doubt in your intention?" Answer, "No." Question, "Had this person actually done anything to you at any time whatsoever?" Answer, "Physically, directly, no." Question, "Was it your intent to hurt this individual?" Answer, "Yes, that's normally what you do when you punch someone." So on those facts, as my client is laying on the ground and there's a melee going on where people are getting punched and kicked, is he justified at that point to take his gun out and shoot in self-defense? He shoots this guy in the leg and fragments of the bullet hit two other people. That's the case. That's it. He is sentenced under Florida's mandatory minimum to 25 years in prison, 25 years. He's been in for 15 years.

Narrator 1:23:13 (inhales)

Josh Dubin 1:23:13 I have gone to visit him. He is the only client that I've ever represented that has never got a ticket in prison. What is a ticket? You know, f- didn't listen to a s- corrections officer when they said, "Get against the fucking wall." Um, you didn't have, uh, you know... You didn't follow the rules, you didn't do the... Uh, not a ticket. So various powerful people that know the governor finally got him to listen. Now, before I got involved in the case, the family was told that the governor was prepared to grant him clemency and traveled to Tallahassee the day that they thought he was gonna get released and were told on that day the governor changed his mind. So I knew this all going in. (smacks lips) I went and I appeared at a clemency hearing, and I was as, um... What do they say? You're, um... The word's escaping me. When you're not subservient, but you're... Tsk. I'm, I'm trying to think, articulate it the right way. I mean, I was not only respectful, but, you know, I understood the gravity of what I was asking for. This is a governor that has never granted clemency, commuted a sentence to someone that was currently incarcerated-

Narrator 1:24:52 Hmm.

Josh Dubin 1:24:53 ... and, you know, he went through a laundry list of things that he would like me to do.... his parents live ... Michael Giles' parents live ... he's, that's the name of my client, Michael Giles. His parents live in Georgia. Could you con- the governor, could you get in touch with the State of Georgia ... I mean, this is all at a public hearing, it's online ... and see if their governor has any problem with abiding by the terms of release? Re- you want me to contact the governor of ... okay. Submit a supervised release plan that is exhaustive and runs all the way through the term that he would serve out his incarceration, so that he should be on supervised release for another 10 years? Contact this one, contact that one. So, I learned, on good information, that the governor was like, "He'll never be able to get all that done." I got it all done. I had people help me. Went to the governor, spoke to the governor in Georgia, and he said, "Yeah, of course. We'll abide by it." There's something called the Interstate Compact. States have to abide by each other's supervision requirements once someone goes from one state to another. This had the support of John Ashcroft, Mike Mukasey, right-wing Republicans that otherwise wouldn't support this sort of thing. It was like, I had a list of, like, 40 people, former US attorneys. It got so much that the, the head of the Florida Commission of Offender Review, um, they gave him a positive recommendation to get out. Super rare. The attorney general was in support. Everyone was in support. A week before, I was told, "We're gonna grant him relief." They actually had me speaking to the prison to transport him up to the clemency hearing. We were down to whether he would be able to change into a suit. Because at the public hearing, Governor DeSantis said, "I wanna actually look at him eye-to-eye."

Joe Rogan 1:27:10 (laughs) .

Josh Dubin 1:27:12 And at the last second, for no fucking articulated reason, he said, "You know what? I've changed my mind." That's, that is brutal. It's, it's, uh, evil, in my opinion. And it's precisely why, you know, sometimes the king has to show mercy. And it's precisely why this, this guy is not very popular, I don't think. And, and I ask this because it's relevant. Does Michael Giles get prosecuted if he's not a tall Black man? I don't think so. The prosecutor that prosecuted him ... I'm not calling him anything, I'm giving you the facts. The prosecutor that prosecuted him went through a DOJ investigation because something was found in his office targeting Hispanic residents for harsher punishment. A whistleblower took a photo of it. It was a memo hanging over a water cooler.

Joe Rogan 1:28:21 (laughs) .

Josh Dubin 1:28:21 And it's all over the place, it's all online. You can read about it. And he had to enter into some agreement with the Department of Justice, so-

Joe Rogan 1:28:28 How was it phrased?

Josh Dubin 1:28:30 How was what phrased?

Joe Rogan 1:28:31 How was, this, the, the determination to prose-

Josh Dubin 1:28:34 If, if prior criminal history or Hispanic, and then it has an arrow-

Joe Rogan 1:28:39 Or Hispanic?

Josh Dubin 1:28:39 Oh, yeah, you can pull it up. His name-

Joe Rogan 1:28:41 So, prior criminal history is the same as just being innocent and Hispanic?

Josh Dubin 1:28:44 Oh, yeah. This is, this is the South.

Joe Rogan 1:28:47 Wow.

Josh Dubin 1:28:47 I mean, it's, it's out there. His name is, his name is Jack Campbell. Um, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:28:55 That is so crazy that they would-

Josh Dubin 1:28:57 There's a-

Joe Rogan 1:28:57 ... not just, but actually print-

Josh Dubin 1:28:59 There's a p-

Joe Rogan 1:29:00 ... that prior criminal history is equal to being Hispanic.

Josh Dubin 1:29:02 I don't think it said equal. I'd love, I'd love to see-

Joe Rogan 1:29:04 But it's the same. Or Hispanic.

Josh Dubin 1:29:05 There's a w-

Joe Rogan 1:29:05 Might as well be saying equal.

Josh Dubin 1:29:06 Yeah, there's a, there's a whistleblower that took a picture of it, and then he had to apologize for it. So, should the thought enter my mind, "Hmm." I mean, I was putting my daughter to bed one night and I just looked up his name and I stumbled across this, and I was like, "Oh, okay." 'Cause I spoke to him one time and I asked if he would give a letter of support, and he said, "I won't give a letter of support, but I, I stand by what I did." I said, "Do you wanna know what he's done since he's been in?" "No, I don't care. Not gonna support it, I just won't." Oh, there it is. That's it.

Joe Rogan 1:29:45 So here it is. If no criminal history, diversion. If limited cris- criminal history, withhold costs. If extensive criminal history and/or Hispanic ...

Josh Dubin 1:29:54 Adjudicated guilty.

Joe Rogan 1:29:57 ... plus costs. And/or extensive criminal history, and/or Hispanic. And Hispanic is in capital letters.

Josh Dubin 1:30:06 Yeah. And, and so this, this whistleblower takes a picture of this, and it leads to a DOJ investigation where he agrees, he apologizes publicly, and he agrees to go into some training program and have the prosecutors that work for him in a training program for racial sensitivity. So, you think ... you know, I deal with the facts and I deal with what I see every day, so should it beg the question, is Michael Giles getting charged with this crime under the facts as I just told you, with the, the testimony that I just read to you? And they said, "Well, he ran initially. And when the police initially spoke to him, he, he didn't say he shot the gun." He's a Black man in America. Later that night, he admitted it. So, what does it make a dif- and what does it make a difference anyway? The guy was attacked.... with a running start, someone leaves their feet and punches him in the face. Isn't 15 years enough? 15 years? He's had to go through ... I mean, you read the letters from his kids, who have now grown up without him-

Joe Rogan 1:31:16 (sighs)

Josh Dubin 1:31:17 ... your, your heart ends up in, in 50 million pieces. And you know, so a guy like G- Governor DeSantis, I think it's like ... there's no humanity there. And you know, the craziest part about it is that you never know who you'll meet and why this is all, to me, human rights issue. The only, um, person that gave me a sympathetic ear when I would go to Florida, before I lived there, when I was still living in New York, and talk about clemency cases was Nikki Fried. I think she was the Commissioner of Agriculture. And she ran against DeSantis in the last gubernatorial election and she's ... Like, the fascinating part about it is that this is like a woman that's dedicated herself to public service and she's a major marijuana advocate. Legalizing marijuana has been her mission for so many years. She's on the board of NORML. She'd be a, an awesome guest because she became super unpopular in Florida (laughs) because of her stance on legalization of marijuana. And, um, you know, she was attacked over it, about how weed is a gateway drug. Somehow, in the minds of, you know, people that don't get it, that it's l- some, like, pathway to heroin addiction. And, you know, medicinal marijuana, you know, cannabis for healing, all of those things, she's been a major advocate for. And she told me, "He's, you're being strung along," after she was out of office. She's now the head of the, I think she's the head of the Democratic Party for Florida. Wonderful woman. She's like, "You're gonna get strung along." I said, "No, watch. Watch. I'm gonna be the first one to get clemency from someone in pris-" And he still can do it. Why won't he? Fuck knows. And it's ... You know, I have to l- to talk to Michael's mom and I have to talk to him, and it's like, you know, you run outta words. And yeah, it's not, not just is this a dirty business. Heartbreaking, you know? It's, um ...

Joe Rogan 1:33:37 Oh, that's gotta be particularly par- hard for you. You are a very sensitive guy. It's, which is odd. You're a very empathetic guy, which is odd for a lawyer. You know, usually lawyers eventually develop some sort of a shell.

Josh Dubin 1:33:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:33:50 Just don't let enough in. You get hurt too many times. Even if you start out empathetic, you eventually develop a thick skin.

Josh Dubin 1:34:01 I, listen. I'm a crier and I don't hide that, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:34:06 Well, that's why you're able to do the kinda work you do, 'cause you still are sensitive to this and you still are empathetic despite all the shit you've seen.

Josh Dubin 1:34:15 Well, I mean, look. I have to be ... I don't think you're go- ... I used to think that it was something to shrink from. In other words, that ... Because it g- it becomes, um, it becomes a heavy cross to bear when you start wearing other people's hurt and emotions and, you know ... I, I, I've found myself sometimes, um, inferring that people feel a certain way when they don't, and I have to make sure that I'm careful about that. I mean, my son, Carter, is like, he's 13. He's gonna be 14 in April. And I sometimes feel like ... I have to be careful with the empathy because sometimes I'll be reliving some traumatic event from my childhood, and I'll think, "Oh, he must feel this way at this point in time," at 13, and I'm imputing an emotion to him that isn't there.

Joe Rogan 1:35:20 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 1:35:21 And sometimes I'll do that with a client or their family, um, and I've, I've gotten better at it. But when you have to deliver hard news or bad news because there's so many ... These, these exonerations, the commutations, the pardons, they're like each one of them is its own miracle. Each one of them is ... It's so hard, so hard to get it done.

Joe Rogan 1:35:55 I gotta pee. We'll be right back. So today, right before we started this, uh, Trump rescheduled marijuana. So it's now Schedule III.

Josh Dubin 1:36:06 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:36:06 So it's in the same category as Tylenol.

Josh Dubin 1:36:10 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:36:12 Which is interesting. Um, that's a compromise, right? It should be legal and regulated.

Josh Dubin 1:36:19 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:36:19 That's what I think.

Josh Dubin 1:36:20 Isn't, isn't there been a stain on Tylenol, though, under this Administration?

Joe Rogan 1:36:24 Sure. Yeah. Sure. It's been ... Acetaminophen is responsible for at least 500 deaths a year. Um, I read a horrible case about a lady who had COVID-

Josh Dubin 1:36:32 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 1:36:32 ...and she was struggling, you know, and in pain, really hurting.

Josh Dubin 1:36:36 Tylenol with codeine.

Joe Rogan 1:36:37 Kept taking Tylenol.

Josh Dubin 1:36:38 Slight difference.

Joe Rogan 1:36:38 Tylenol is co- ... With codein? Yeah. Codeine?

Narrator 1:36:40 That's in Schedule III.

Joe Rogan 1:36:41 Oh, okay. Tylenol with codeine.

Narrator 1:36:43 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 1:36:44 Tylenol III.

Narrator 1:36:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36:46 That's Schedule III.

Narrator 1:36:47 Strong stuff, but That's different than-

Joe Rogan 1:36:48 Dif- different Tylenol.

Narrator 1:36:49 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:36:49 Different regular Ty- ... So acetaminophen is good.

Josh Dubin 1:36:51 Uh, h- how do you feel about it being rescheduled as well?

Joe Rogan 1:36:54 Well, it's better. You know, certainly it's better. Uh, I believe if it's rescheduled, what does that mean? It could be prescribed now? You know? And it can be s- prescribed, uh, s- state by state. Uh, even in Texas, there's, uh, some medical uses. Uh, I feel like it should be like alcohol.... I think, uh, you should be of a certain age to be able to use it, and, um, I think it's not for everybody. I think that's, uh, that's important, that it isn't for everybody. There are people that have very, uh, particularly vulnerable psychological states, um, mental constitutions, whether they have a history of mental illness or whatever, especially, like, high-dose marijuana. You know, Alex Baro- Alex Berenson wrote about this, uh, in a book, uh, called, I think it's called Tell Your Children, um, and he highlights, uh, the instances of people that have, uh, schizophrenic breaks from, uh, high doses of THC and whether or not they would've had those schizophrenic breaks anyway. You know, we don't know. There's a certain percentage of the population that's just schizophrenic. What causes it? We don't know.

Josh Dubin 1:38:04 Hm.

Joe Rogan 1:38:05 Or we, we don't know clearly why something can cause it, but you should be aware of those things, you know? I, it's not for everybody. I know a lot of people don't like it, but I know a lot of people who do. A lot of people, it enhances their life, it, uh, makes times more enjoyable, makes sex more enjoyable and food more enjoyable and fun times with friends. It's like anything else, you can abuse everything, including exercise, you know? I know a lot of people who are addicted to exercise-

Josh Dubin 1:38:31 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:38:31 ... and they overdo it, and people take CrossFit classes and they go too hard and they wind up getting rhabdomyolysis.

Josh Dubin 1:38:38 What is that so- ... That's some kind of thing with your kidneys or liver or something, right?

Joe Rogan 1:38:41 Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Your, you literally, your, your muscle tissue breaks down faster than your body can heal. Um, rhabdo's dangerous.

Josh Dubin 1:38:50 I did-

Joe Rogan 1:38:50 People die of that.

Josh Dubin 1:38:50 I remember reading about it when I did CrossFit 15 years ago, whatever it was, and I was like, "I'm not going that hard to (...) get that."

Joe Rogan 1:39:01 Yeah. (laughs)

Josh Dubin 1:39:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:39:02 Well, it's for psychos, the David Gogginses of the world. You know, I think he got rhabdo, went to the hospital, got out, and then completed his race.

Josh Dubin 1:39:11 He's not human.

Joe Rogan 1:39:12 Yeah, he's a psycho. (laughs) He's amazing, but-

Josh Dubin 1:39:16 I, I, I wonder how he runs and speaks at the same time.

Joe Rogan 1:39:20 Well, he's in insane shape. I mean, he does it every day. He runs 13 miles every fucking day, and then on top of that he does a series of, like, very rigorous workouts. He does two or three workouts every day. Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:39:34 I mean, he's a fascinating guy, Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan 1:39:35 He's awesome, but he's a great guy.

Josh Dubin 1:39:38 Stay hard.

Joe Rogan 1:39:39 Great human being though.

Josh Dubin 1:39:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:39:41 He really is. He's great to talk to, great to hang out with. I love him. Um, but point is, like, you can get addicted to video games, you can get addicted to gambling. The gambling thing is a big argument people use all the time, you know, 'cause we, uh, one of our sponsors is DraftKings, online gambling. Uh, I think you should be able to gamble. I don't have a problem with it. Me personally, I don't have a problem with gambling, um, but I know a lot of people that do. They shouldn't fucking gamble. You know, gambling is an, an evil addiction. You watch people get gripped by it. It's kind of crazy. I've known quite a few people that have had gambling addictions, especially from my pool hall days.

Josh Dubin 1:40:18 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:40:18 I was just always around hardcore gamblers, and the, the... Boy, man, it might as well be heroin. It might, it might as well be for those fucking people. But I think you should be able to gamble. Uh, I know it devastates some people's lives, but their choices devastate their lives, and there's help and there's, you know-

Josh Dubin 1:40:37 But-

Joe Rogan 1:40:37 ... you should learn how to manage your mind.

Josh Dubin 1:40:39 I think you have to learn restraint in anything.

Joe Rogan 1:40:42 You can't... Yes, you can't nanny state the whole fucking world, you know? You can't Nerf every hard edge on the planet.

Josh Dubin 1:40:48 Nerf.

Joe Rogan 1:40:48 It's not how it works.

Josh Dubin 1:40:49 I love that. I'm gonna steal that.

Joe Rogan 1:40:51 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:40:51 Nerf it.

Joe Rogan 1:40:51 You know, listen, I, I, I do things that you can get hurt doing and I think you should be allowed to do that, you know? I, I know people that have been very badly hurt doing martial arts, including competing. I did a lot of that. You should be able to do it. You should be able to ride bulls. I don't wanna ride a bull. You should be able to ride a bull. I'm, I think one of the things about being a human being is as much freedom as you can give people, the better, and, uh, also inform them about the dangers of whatever choices they make. Give them an informed ability to make a decision for themselves. This is what it means to be a free human being. And you're gonna make some dumb choices and you're gonna make some dumb decisions, and that's okay. That's, that's how we all learn together collectively, and, uh, I think marijuana's far better for you than alcohol. It has legitimate medical uses, legitimate, um, psychological uses. It relieves stress for a lot of people. It's, um, it's... You can't criminalize something for some- something you don't agree with. That's crazy. Also, the LD50 of it is off the fucking charts. Literally the only way to die from marijuana is it would take about a 50-pound package hitting you in the head from a CIA drug plane. That's how you die.

Josh Dubin 1:42:08 What's an LD50?

Joe Rogan 1:42:09 Lethal dose at 50% of the population.

Josh Dubin 1:42:11 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:42:12 It's very high. So, if you're, if- if you're saying, like, for people's bene- uh, like, if you're saying that marijuana should be illegal 'cause it's dangerous, okay. Dangerous how? When, when, when there's so many things that are... Like,