Joe Rogan Experience #2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   [upbeat music] Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      [upbeat music] Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

   2. SPSpeaker0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music]

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      That's wild.

   5. MDMatt Damon0:13

      And I went in 'cause I came in from Miami, I think I was living at the time. And I went in, and, uh... And, uh, I'm sitting in the waiting room, and it was, like, on a Sunday because it was... I was like: "I'm only in town for a..." And, and Stan was like: "I'll come into the office." I'm like, "Thank you so much." I had to have some, a filling or something, whatever I needed.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      [chuckles]

   7. MDMatt Damon0:29

      It's kind of an emergency. So I'm sitting in the thing, and, uh, [click] and I'm not getting called in, but the, the, the lady's just... Uh, no, no, there's not even a receptionist. And Stan comes out with his mask on. No, the first thing I hear is, "Pig fucker! Fucking piece of cocksucker," [laughing] "fucking pig fucker."

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:46

      [laughing]

   9. MDMatt Damon0:46

      And I'm like, "What is happening in there?" It's in the other room. And Stan comes in with his mask on. He goes, "Sorry." He goes: "I'll be with you soon." He goes, "I got Hunter in the chair." [laughing]

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:53

       [laughing]

   11. MDMatt Damon0:54

       And he goes back, [whooshes] and I hear... Listen to, to Hunter Thompson swear for, like, 15 minutes. I'm like, "This is amazing." And then Stan goes, "Okay, come on back." And Hunter's kind of getting out, and he goes, "Oh, you're sitting down with this guy? He's a fucking assassin." [laughing]

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       [laughing]

   13. MDMatt Damon1:09

       So I... And then he goes, and he's got this jug of clear, uh, of clear fluid, and he's like: "You're gonna need a sip of this." And I'm like, "Oh, my God, this is fucking Hunter S. Thompson's moonshine." [laughing] I'm like, "This is-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       [laughing] Fucking ethyl alcohol, like-

   15. MDMatt Damon1:23

       ... I'm like, "This is fucking amazing!"

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       2,000 proof.

   17. MDMatt Damon1:25

       I'm like, I'm, I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds, and I'm getting a sip.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       [laughing]

   19. MDMatt Damon1:28

       And, like, and it was, like, 10 in the morning on a Sunday.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Was it?

   21. MDMatt Damon1:31

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       Oh, it's-

   23. MDMatt Damon1:32

       He was halfway through the jug.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       It was just pure, pure-

   25. MDMatt Damon1:34

       Like, fucking, like-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       ... catch fire from it.

   27. MDMatt Damon1:35

       Yeah, it was-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       Where was this?

   29. MDMatt Damon1:37

       In Beverly Hills.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       [laughing]
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      watch. Like, "Look, we've got data that shows within the first five minutes, when this happens, they tune out." So let's like... My buddy, Tony Hinchcliffe-

   2. MDMatt Damon15:06

      Yeah

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:06

      ... you know, he's got Kill Tony.

   4. MDMatt Damon15:07

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      And now it's on Netflix, and so they're giving him notes now, and they-

   6. MDMatt Damon15:10

      [chuckles]

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:10

      ... and they can give him, like-

   8. MDMatt Damon15:12

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:12

      But they're not telling him what to do, but they're saying, like: "This is when people are tuning out, and so let's... You know, just so you have that data, now decide how you wanna edit things." It's like, oh.

   10. MDMatt Damon15:21

       Yeah, and which is-

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       Slippery slope

   12. MDMatt Damon15:22

       ... it is because, because the... It's like the, the bar for, for walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:35

       Right.

   14. MDMatt Damon15:35

       Right? And oftentimes, you know, y- you, directors will wanna make a movie that is challenging and upsetting. And I remember, yeah, Terry Kinney, my, my friend, great actor, and he, he told me about the experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New York for the first time, right, in '76 or whenever it came out, and he said: "What I remember is not only the movie, but I remember standing at the back because I had got up, I got up out of my seat, and I went, but I couldn't bring myself to leave-

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       Hmm

   16. MDMatt Damon16:02

       ... 'cause I was so invested, but I was so..." He goes, "I was standing at the back by the door, watching the movie," and he goes, [chuckles] "and there were two other people standing next to me, who were doing the same thing." Like they-

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       Just 'cause they were disturbed?

   18. MDMatt Damon16:12

       Because the movie was disturbing them so much.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       Wow!

   20. MDMatt Damon16:15

       Which is not a bad thing, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Right.

   22. MDMatt Damon16:17

       So had that been on N- on Netflix or Amazon, you know, if somebody goes, "Oh, I'm disturbed," and they turn, and they change the channel-

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Yeah

   24. MDMatt Damon16:23

       ... like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       Right, that's true. Like, the investment of going to a place is much greater.

   26. SPSpeaker16:30

       Yeah, and one of the values of that is that you could, you look at movies from the '70s and '80s, the first act was 25, 30 minutes.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Right.

   28. SPSpeaker16:35

       You know, The Verdict, for instance, a great movie, takes a long time to get it going.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:39

       Look at The Deer Hunter.

   30. SPSpeaker16:40

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Basically, 'cause we liked it, and-…

   1. MDMatt Damon30:00

      that we d- actually do the movie. Um, and we, and we were like, "Yeah, why don't we do it? It seems, um-

   2. SPSpeaker30:06

      Basically, 'cause we liked it, and-

   3. MDMatt Damon30:07

      We liked it, yeah. [chuckles]

   4. SPSpeaker30:07

      ... part of it's like, we're not trying to just do our movies. We wanna be-... you know, doing movies with all these, the people that we like and respect, and, and, and then, you know, the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get, like, the— historically, the way it's worked is, like, the, you know, a studio will own a, a, a, an IP or a script or whatever, and then you cut, and they'll say: "Okay, we want you to do it." "Okay, well, how much?" "Well, how much did you get for the last one, right?" And you go, "Well, what's the budget?" And then that's how they assign a value to it, right? But, like, my belief was, well, especially when these streamers were, like, coming into the market and, and chasing stuff, is like, this movie may, may be worth more, it may be worth less, and that, like, w-we're all just subject to that. So we'll try to get the best price for it, and we'll all share it, you know, pro rata. And essentially, that, that was the same process. We've done eight, I guess, movies or so now.

   5. MDMatt Damon30:55

      Yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker30:55

      And, and, uh, we took it out, and, you know, people wanted it. And then one of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this, this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize. And it was like: Okay, great! That's, that's really meaningful because ideally, it becomes a template that other people go, "Hey, we wanna do that thing," you know? And then we go, "Oh, here's the paperwork."

   7. MDMatt Damon31:13

      Yeah, that's the thing. Like, a lot of people say that they would wanna do it, but it... Now, now that template exists, so it's like plug and play. So if you're, if you're not full of shit, and you really do mean that, then guess what? Just take this, and go do it, you know.

   8. SPSpeaker31:26

      And it's also gonna let you, you know, I hope, like, m-manage the risk. In other words, the argument you always have is like: Well, shit, we gotta invest all this money in the movie. So you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable. That's too edgy or can't be R-rated 'cause it costs this much. I get it, right? You're gonna put all your money into it. You want-- you don't want money to fucking disappear. You wanna make money, okay. So if, like, when we wrote the first movie that we... Good Will Hunting, it was like, we knew that had to be a cheap movie. People talking in rooms to each other 'cause no one's [chuckles] gonna put a bunch of money into a movie-

   9. MDMatt Damon31:55

      And do a movie with us. [chuckles]

   10. SPSpeaker31:56

       ... two assholes that no one heard of. So it was like, okay, what can we do that's interesting, that, and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie? That same logic, like, carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something. So what I'd like to have happen is to say, "Okay, now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that, like, in success, we'll actually benefit, we can lower, you know, the price up front for you so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry, so that you can take the risk, so that we can do something really interesting, that's, that's an original idea, that's, uh, you know, that's an Anomam or a Sinners or a fucking Marty Supreme or whatever it is. And, and then if it's successful, we're not all sitting here like assholes, where, you know, [chuckles] you guys walk off with all the money, but... And you can have that happen in an ongoing way, so that you can make more interesting stuff."

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:46

       A lot of the stuff that was going on with the strikes was centered around AI and what AI is gonna do to the business. Like, w-where do you feel is gonna be, like, the biggest problem with AI? Is it gonna be with people's likenesses? 'Cause there's a lot of that, where they want, they wanna use extras and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film. But then there's also... You're gonna have films that are written by artificial intelligence. You're gonna have scenes that don't involve people, and it gets weird, right?

   12. MDMatt Damon33:19

       [lips smack] It gets really weird, but this actually is an area of-

   13. SPSpeaker33:21

       It's tricky, like-

   14. MDMatt Damon33:22

       ... expertise for him.

   15. SPSpeaker33:22

       Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this. Like, my belief is, it's sort of like, what's gonna happen with electricity? Well, a lot of shit's gonna happen with electricity. Some of it's gonna be good, some of it's gonna change stuff, some of it's gonna be like, [chuckles] you know, this is gonna be, you know, shit that kills a bunch of people. Like, it's, it's, it's opening a door that you can't, um, you know, say, well, talk about in a kind of a blanket way. But I think with what I see is, like, for example, if you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean, to the average, and it's, and it's not reliable, and it's-- I mean, I, I just can't even stand to see what it writes. Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer, and you're going, "Ah, what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up," or somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets... And it can give you some examples of that. [coughs] I actually don't think it's very likely that it can- it's gonna be able to write anything meaningful or, and in particular, that it's gonna be making movies, like, from whole cloth, like Tilly Norville. Like, that's bullshit. I don't think that's gonna happen. I think it's not-- I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it. Um, and really, what it is, it's gonna be a tool, just like sort of visual effects. And yeah, it needs to have language around it. You need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it. Your-- those laws already exist. You can't-- I can't sell your fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. I might have the ability to draw you, to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law, and the unions are gonna... I think the guilds are gonna manage this, where it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot the scene here in our parkas and, you know, whatever it is, and, but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole. It'll save us a lot of money, a lot of time. We're gonna focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside. That's useful, just like Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn used to be, like, driving their car, and there's-

   16. JRJoe Rogan35:23

       Yeah

   17. SPSpeaker35:23

       ... a wind blowing a painting behind them, and it looked goofy. [laughing] And, you know, now, you know, in computer-generated-

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:28

       Yeah

   19. SPSpeaker35:28

       ... people use a lot of computer-generated stuff, and some of it is gonna replace just that. Like, instead of, uh, five hundred guys in Singapore, you know, making two dollars an hour to, to render all the graphics for a superhero movie, they're just gonna be able to do that a lot easier. There's already laws around and guild guidelines around, like, how many union extras you have to use. But also, we've been tiling extras. Like, there weren't a million Orcs in Middle Earth, [chuckles] you know what I mean?

   20. JRJoe Rogan35:52

       Right.

   21. SPSpeaker35:53

       In Invictus, there weren't all those people in the stadium. Like, that's something we've been doing. It kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier, where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense, this existential dread. It's gonna wipe everything out.

   22. JRJoe Rogan36:05

       Right.

   23. SPSpeaker36:06

       But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what history seems to show, which is, A, adoption is slow, it's incremental. Um, I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies. [chuckles]

   24. JRJoe Rogan36:21

       Mm.

   25. SPSpeaker36:21

       Where they go, "We're gonna change everything. In two years, there's gonna be no more work."

   26. JRJoe Rogan36:24

       Right.

   27. SPSpeaker36:24

       Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the CapEx spend they're gonna make on these data centers, with the argument that, like, "Oh, you know, as soon as we do the next model, it's gonna scale up. It's gonna be three times as good." Except that actually, ChatGPT-5, about twenty-five time-- percent better than ChatGPT-4 and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data. So those when they say that it's, like, plateauing-... The early AI, the line went up very steeply, and it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's gonna be really expensive to get better. And a lot of people are like, "Fuck this, we want ChatGPT-4!" Because it turned out, like, the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to, like, as, like, companion bots to chat with at night. And so there's no work, there's no productivity, there's no value to it. I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to, like, focus on an AI friend who's, you know, [chuckles] telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say, and being sycophantic. But that's sort of a, a side issue. I think for this particular purpose, like, the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not, it's gonna be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome, and they make it harder to do it. And it's always gonna rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it.

   28. JRJoe Rogan37:45

       Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are gonna appreciate real things that are made by real people. You know, like, you're, you, you still appreciate a handmade table. You know?

   29. SPSpeaker37:56

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan37:56

       You're, you're gonna appreciate... Uh, like, did you see, um, [lips smack] uh, The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      boxed.

   2. MDMatt Damon45:01

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:01

      And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to-

   4. MDMatt Damon45:04

      Yeah

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:04

      ... put him in that box. And so you see him now, he's thinner, he's lost a lot of weight. Like, Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing, too-

   6. MDMatt Damon45:10

      Right

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:10

      ... right?

   8. MDMatt Damon45:11

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      He wanted to be-

   10. MDMatt Damon45:12

       Yeah

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:12

       ... he wanted to have more range, wanted to have, you know, more opportunities to do exciting and different, challenging things.

   12. MDMatt Damon45:17

       Well, I think also coming from where he came from, right? It's like you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days. Try coming from wrestling [chuckles] to movies-

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:25

       Right

   14. MDMatt Damon45:26

       ... to, like, the biggest movie star in the world, right? It's very... It's, like, it's incredible that he did that, and now he's in this place where he's got this leverage as, because he's so beloved and, you know, that, that he can kind of tailor the- tailor what he wants from h- from here on out.

   15. SPSpeaker45:42

       It's hard to bring the audience with you, and go-

   16. MDMatt Damon45:44

       Right

   17. SPSpeaker45:44

       ... "No, no, I know you like this thing, but let me, let me show you something else," you know? It's sort of like you go to the concert, the band wants to play the new songs. "Play the fucking hits!" [laughing]

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       [laughing]

   19. MDMatt Damon45:54

       [laughing]

   20. SPSpeaker45:54

       You know? Because, you know, somebody's a little G- Gilded Cage, "All right, fuck it, Satisfaction."

   21. JRJoe Rogan45:58

       Yeah. [laughing]

   22. MDMatt Damon46:00

       [laughing]

   23. SPSpeaker46:00

       "No, I love this song, too, but..."

   24. MDMatt Damon46:02

       Yeah.

   25. SPSpeaker46:02

       "You know my, my acoustic thing that I did? Boom!" [laughing]

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       Yeah, I went to see the Stones, and w- when they were here in town, and there was a few songs they played that were, like, new songs.

   27. MDMatt Damon46:10

       Oh, really?

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:11

       And you could see the audience was like, "Okay."

   29. MDMatt Damon46:12

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       "Okay."
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Well, at least find out who owned…

   1. MDMatt Damon1:00:00

      just dig the yard up.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:01

      Well, at least find out who owned it before you. Oh, he's a pilot.

   3. MDMatt Damon1:00:04

      [chuckles] Yeah.

   4. SPSpeaker1:00:04

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

      Get a truck. [laughing]

   6. MDMatt Damon1:00:06

      Yeah. [chuckles]

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

      Get a tractor. [laughing] It's time to dig up the backyard. I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it.

   8. MDMatt Damon1:00:14

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

      They were making so much money, they just had to bury it places.

   10. MDMatt Damon1:00:17

       That's fucking crazy.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

       Well, it's why it's a perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because, you know, that... The situation that the cops... Without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turned dirty, so many cops turned dirty. It's 'cause they just could get confronted.

   12. SPSpeaker1:00:35

       So much temptation.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

       Yes!

   14. SPSpeaker1:00:36

       It's like you take these, these people, you know, you got, like, six, seven people, they fucking work for a living. They got the same bullshit they have to deal with, and there's $20 million, you know? And it, I mean, it makes for great, like, drama, too, even, like, the, you know, in the performances. 'Cause all of a sudden, somebody's thinking, like: "Okay, how are they gonna react?" [chuckles] You know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:55

       Yeah.

   16. SPSpeaker1:00:55

       "Who, who will be the first person to say, 'You know, I'm gonna have to turn this all in?'" You know, and, and, like, getting to play that shit... And for me, also, I like, you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious or preachy, 'cause I really think movies, we're talking about, like, what they do well. What they do very poorly is deliver messages or a lecture. As soon as you get into that thing-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:13

       Yeah

   18. SPSpeaker1:01:14

       ... it, it, it, the audience is like, "I, you know, I'm gonna go to church for that or fucking school for... I don't need that shit here." Um, but I like that what was underneath it is like, this is a fucking hard job, and, and that there's a lot [chuckles] ... Like, there's a lot of value. Like, the- these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job, are trying to get through the day, and just at the end of the day, have done their job like they said they were gonna do, you know, adhere to the fucking ethics that they're supposed to, and at the end of the day, be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value in not fucking stealing the money or flipping somebody over. You know what I mean? And doing all that shit.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:48

       Yeah.

   20. SPSpeaker1:01:48

       And that's the win. The win doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or fucking, you know, saves the world from, uh, you know, the evil scientist laser beam or whatever. It's like-... at the end of the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, "Look, you know, I acquitted myself according to what the fucking expectations were, and what am I, true to my word." And I, I think there's so, like, that's a... I don't know, that, that affected me. I, I found that kind of moving, and, and you can't do it if you create, like, if, i- it's to credit to Joe's script, like, just two-dimensional characters. "Oh, I'm the hero, I'm the villain," or, "This person would never do that." They all have to be real people-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:20

       Yeah

   22. SPSpeaker1:02:20

       ... like we would be, subject to, like, temptation. And money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want or that's gonna make your life better, your... You know, it's something different to everybody. But, you know, i- i- and especially when you're, like, you're facing, like, real, you know, the custody thing or the, you know, the sick relative or, or whatever it is, that's- it's a real thing. Nobody's immune to, to, to that kind of temptation, you know? Sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, "Oh, well, you're dirty or you're not." Like, putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling, like, undervalued, like, like the woman, the scene where Catalina's like: "I get fucking pissed, I get yelled at, I get shit on," you know what I mean? Like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:58

       Yeah

   24. SPSpeaker1:02:58

       ... "I'm out here grinding every fucking day." You know, it's, uh, it's a lot to, it's a lot to ask, and I think it's, it's worth kind of making that, you know, heroic, i- i- without sort of indicating too much.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:03:11

       No, it's really well-written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments. It's a, it's a... And that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one movie-

   26. SPSpeaker1:03:20

       Yeah

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:03:21

       ... moment in a movie where you're like, "What?"

   28. SPSpeaker1:03:22

       Come on. [chuckles]

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:03:23

       "How did he do that?"

   30. SPSpeaker1:03:23

       Yeah, well, that's convenient. [chuckles]
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

   That's the p- Like, if you're gonna…

   1. MDMatt Damon1:15:00

      Right. Right.

   2. SPSpeaker1:15:00

      That's the p- Like, if you're gonna decide, it's, "Oh, you can disagree, we don't believe so, or I don't know, what about this or what about that?" But once you find yourself relying on, like, "Well, I need to, like, zero out this person's humanity-

   3. MDMatt Damon1:15:10

      Right

   4. SPSpeaker1:15:11

      ... in order to defend my idea," I think that's a pretty good indicator that, like, there's something wrong with the way you're thinking. Like, because it can't be that you're right about [chuckles] everything-

   5. MDMatt Damon1:15:19

      Right

   6. SPSpeaker1:15:19

      ... and everyone else is bad who disagrees with you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:21

      And I think that was one of the most interesting things about The Sopranos, is that the main character, the guy that you loved, was a fucking murderer.

   8. MDMatt Damon1:15:30

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:30

      He was like, uh... Who would murder his friends, and he was a, a-

   10. MDMatt Damon1:15:34

       Yeah

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

       ... a complete mobster and a thug, but you really loved him.

   12. MDMatt Damon1:15:38

       You yeah, loved the shit out of that guy.

   13. SPSpeaker1:15:39

       Yeah, you cared about him.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:15:39

       It was so complicated-

   15. MDMatt Damon1:15:41

       I'm re-watching it with my daughter right now [chuckles]

   16. SPSpeaker1:15:43

       ... and James Gandolfini was so good at doing the part-

   17. MDMatt Damon1:15:44

       He's, he's-

   18. SPSpeaker1:15:44

       ... that you found yourself being like, "I don't know, I think, uh, you, he probably has to kill him now."

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:15:48

       Yeah.

   20. SPSpeaker1:15:48

       "Probably gonna kill him."

   21. MDMatt Damon1:15:48

       But that's, that's also, that's also great, a great actor. Like, there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did Streetcar Named Desire, and Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like, freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski... He was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski.

   22. SPSpeaker1:16:07

       Oh.

   23. MDMatt Damon1:16:07

       And Tennessee Williams was like, "But I wrote him as a brute. He's this, he was like a two-dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife," and b- you know, and, and was just, and was supposed to be this kind of dark, looming force over the play. But Brando was like, "No, he's a human being, and I'm gonna play him like a fucking human being." And, and it changed the, the play. But, but Williams, in much of his writings-

   24. SPSpeaker1:16:28

       Well, ultimately, that so much more reflects life and the real world.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:29

       Yeah.

   26. MDMatt Damon1:16:30

       Yeah, exactly.

   27. SPSpeaker1:16:30

       So everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has their reasons for why they're doing... And people don't set out to be like, "I'm just gonna go hurt someone or dominate the world." Like-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:16:38

       Yeah

   29. SPSpeaker1:16:38

       ... you think, "Well, I gotta protect what I have." It's like even the, you know, not to bring it back to this movie, but it's like, what I liked about Rip was it was kind of the slippery slope. You know, at first time, you take a little money, and then, "Well, you know, I gotta cover that. I don't wanna go to jail. I think I have my reason why I did that, but now I've told a lie. Now I gotta cover that thing." And now you have guys who both live by this code that's very, "Hey, you protect the people who are with you, and you gotta have this fucking..." And so now, it's two people are very similar, like, by that kind of slippery slope, ultimately find themselves, you know, willing to kill one another. Uh, because... And it's really not-- I don't, I don't believe in that one choice turn. It's like more, how do you find yourself, you dig yourself in a fucking hole? 'Cause you're just covering up the la- trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know? And everybody thinks, a ba- is, is of course, the roots for themself. It's like [chuckles] empathize with themself, is that's what we have to be concerned with, ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic shit. It's so hard to expect people to go like, "All right, and, and, and what about, you know, like, what they think?" And I a- and I think that's... I think it's a, it's a much more honest evaluation of people, and it allows for, like, complexity and forgiveness and fucking all the shit that's sort of beautiful about people. Like, uh, rather than this notion of like, "Well, we're gonna be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever," and any infraction, then it's like t- permanently stains you.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:17:58

       Right.
7. 1:30:00 – 1:45:00

   [exhales]…

   1. MDMatt Damon1:30:00

      tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, you know? And it's just like... And then just boom, and you're into it, and-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:30:04

      [exhales]

   3. MDMatt Damon1:30:04

      ... Also, they did this incredible, like, like-

   4. SPSpeaker1:30:06

      Little guy changing

   5. MDMatt Damon1:30:06

      ... cinema changing-

   6. SPSpeaker1:30:08

      Yeah, open the shutter

   7. MDMatt Damon1:30:09

      ... Open the shutter all the way.

   8. SPSpeaker1:30:10

      Took away all the motion blur.

   9. MDMatt Damon1:30:11

      Yeah, yeah.

   10. SPSpeaker1:30:11

       They skipped the b- the bleach process in developing the film.

   11. MDMatt Damon1:30:14

       I don't, I, I-

   12. SPSpeaker1:30:15

       Created that look

   13. MDMatt Damon1:30:15

       ... And, and I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there, maybe, but I, I, I just remember-

   14. SPSpeaker1:30:20

       My-

   15. MDMatt Damon1:30:21

       ... Maybe it's just the open shutters, just pa, pa, pa, pa, pa.

   16. SPSpeaker1:30:22

       But when you open the shutter-

   17. MDMatt Damon1:30:23

       Remember, yeah.

   18. SPSpeaker1:30:24

       Yeah, but it just means-

   19. MDMatt Damon1:30:24

       Yeah

   20. SPSpeaker1:30:24

       ... that instead of, like, the motion blur is what makes something that, like, moves across the frame quickly. If you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing, and when you roll those at 24 frames, it gives you this, the illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if you basically open the shutter up so you get much more light, each frame takes a super sharp picture, and when you run those together, like, the piece of dust goes tick, tick, tick, tick. You know, that's what-

   21. MDMatt Damon1:30:45

       And so the mortar explosions are going like ta, ta, ta, ta, and it... And you get that feeling that you're adrenalized, and you're see... You know what I mean?

   22. SPSpeaker1:30:51

       Ah, yeah, yeah.

   23. MDMatt Damon1:30:51

       And it's just... And nobody had ever done it, and-

   24. SPSpeaker1:30:54

       He's just a master of the thing.

   25. MDMatt Damon1:30:55

       Yeah, he-

   26. SPSpeaker1:30:56

       He understood how to use the tools, and combined with a great idea, and it's, that's just masterful.

   27. MDMatt Damon1:31:00

       Yeah.

   28. SPSpeaker1:31:00

       Like, that's just how you do it. There's nobody who directs movies who doesn't go, "Ah, it's Spielberg," you know? [chuckles]

   29. MDMatt Damon1:31:05

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:31:05

       Yeah.
8. 1:45:00 – 2:00:00

   Yeah…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:45:00

      guys do, just 'cause they're such savages-

   2. MDMatt Damon1:45:01

      Yeah

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:45:01

      ... they never wanna leave the gym, then they don't peak right, and then they come in, and they're exhausted, and they didn't recover properly. And then in between rounds, they're too tired, and they can't go out for the next round.

   4. MDMatt Damon1:45:10

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:45:10

      They're too beat up. That happens, too.

   6. MDMatt Damon1:45:13

      I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you overtrain-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:45:17

      Oh, God

   8. MDMatt Damon1:45:18

      ... in a, in an actual championship fight.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:45:19

      And you've realized you're, you- there's no... You can't bounce back-

   10. MDMatt Damon1:45:23

       Right

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:45:23

       ... and this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and-

   12. SPSpeaker1:45:26

       [laughs]

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:45:26

       ... hitting you with punches, and you can't get out of the way anymore.

   14. MDMatt Damon1:45:29

       Do you think d- who, who was it? Was it Khabib who said that they, they, they should just do 25-minute just straight?

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:45:35

       Oh, a lot of people said that. That, I mean, that's a, a, a f- What? [laughs] Is it a song I was playing? What's going on?

   16. SPSpeaker1:45:42

       A little theme song going there. [laughs]

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:45:43

       Just hit my fucking technology.

   18. MDMatt Damon1:45:44

       Oh, the T- the Teskey Brothers playing in my pocket.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:45:46

       That's hilarious.

   20. MDMatt Damon1:45:47

       Um, sorry about that. Uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:45:48

       Well, Royce Gracie always said that. Like, that was how he fought in the early days.

   22. MDMatt Damon1:45:53

       They just straight-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:45:53

       Yeah

   24. MDMatt Damon1:45:53

       ... 25 minutes? [chuckles]

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:45:54

       Because he was like, "Look," he goes, uh, "If we're on the ground," he goes, "I don't want them to stand back up again-

   26. MDMatt Damon1:45:59

       Oh, yeah

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:45:59

       ... and go in between rounds." And he goes, "I need time to cook them." That's what he would say.

   28. MDMatt Damon1:46:03

       Cook. [laughs]

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:46:03

       Yeah.

   30. MDMatt Damon1:46:04

       Yeah.
9. 2:00:00 – 2:03:40

   [laughing]…

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:00:00

      He won the UFC Heavyweight Tournament when he was 19 years old. That was, like, the first event I ever worked at in 1997. I mean, he was, like, o- one of the all-time greats, for sure. But as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy, and boy, did he fucking use it! [laughing]

   2. MDMatt Damon2:00:20

      [laughing]

   3. SPSpeaker2:00:20

      [laughing]

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:00:20

      Okay, 'cause I don't know what his levels were, but they were, like, superhuman levels. And there was a moment in time for a few years, where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy, and people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years, because he was fucking terrifying. Because he has the mind of a veteran-

   5. MDMatt Damon2:00:37

      Mm. Right, right

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:00:38

      ... an incredible amount of experience-

   7. MDMatt Damon2:00:39

      Mm-hmm

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:00:39

      ... but now his body is moving like a 25-year-old, and so he was just annihilating people, just lighting people on fire.

   9. MDMatt Damon2:00:48

      So they're not allowed to use testosterone or, or-

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:00:50

       No, they can't use anything.

   11. MDMatt Damon2:00:51

       Um-

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:00:51

       No.

   13. MDMatt Damon2:00:52

       No dro... How about peptides? Can they use peptides?

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:00:54

       Nope, nope, not even peptides.

   15. MDMatt Damon2:00:55

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:00:55

       They're trying to take that and, and reform that, but there, there's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do. I mean, all it's allowing you to do is soft tissue injuries, heal quicker, and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones.

   17. MDMatt Damon2:01:08

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:01:08

       So instead of adding exogenous hormones-

   19. MDMatt Damon2:01:10

       Yeah

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:01:10

       ... you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally, and it'll... it just makes you more healthy. For a very unhealthy job, and where you're, you know-

   21. MDMatt Damon2:01:19

       Yeah

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:01:19

       ... you're getting hurt all the time-

   23. MDMatt Damon2:01:21

       Yeah

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:01:21

       ... it's, it's gonna be better for the sport, better for the athletes to allow them to all use it. And it's also, there's no long-term damage that's it's gonna do, like steroids, where it shuts down your endocrine system.

   25. MDMatt Damon2:01:31

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:01:31

       So I hope they reform it. But the idea was that there's so many fucking loopholes and so many people cheat. Big camps used to hire scientists, so they had a scientist on staff that was not only pu-

   27. SPSpeaker2:01:44

       What did he, what did he do? [laughing]

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:01:45

       Yeah, exactly. Not only procuring stuff that, that would slip by the test, 'cause there's, like, you know, the BALCO stuff-

   29. SPSpeaker2:01:52

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:01:52

       ... with Marion Jones and the Clear.

Episode duration: 2:24:06