JRE MMA Show #111 with John Danaher

1. 0:00 – 2:08

   FloGrappling’s “Who’s Number One”: building a UFC-style platform for no-gi

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) So one of the best things about, um, this, uh, Who's Number One thing is that I get to see you once a month. (laughs)

   3. JDJohn Danaher0:20

      Thank you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      It's been a... (laughs)

   5. JDJohn Danaher0:22

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      I've been enjoying it, man. We've had some wonderful conversations and I figured, why not get you in here and let's put one of these down on recording.

   7. JDJohn Danaher0:28

      Thank you.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      My pleasure. Um, this new... this idea, this concept is so fantastic to me, to take elite gr- el- elite grapplers and pay them for matches and then f- stream it online. And Flow Grappling is doing this and they're very successful.

   9. JDJohn Danaher0:45

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       A lot- a lot of jujitsu people are tuning into these things and- and, you know, it's- it's really become a hit.

   11. JDJohn Danaher0:50

       Um, a- a true key in the development of any sport is some kind of, uh, organization which showcases it. Uh, for mixed martial arts, it was the UFC. And grappling always struggled with, uh, the idea of showcasing the skills of the athletes. Um, there were local shows, uh, when- when you and I started jujitsu, there was crazy local shows where people would just informally come in and compete against each other. Um, but there was nothing that had any kind of overall vision or a sustained program over time. And that, I believe, is what Flow Grappling is trying to do here, they're trying to give something, uh, a grappling version of what the UFC has done for mixed martial arts. And, uh, uh, the athlete pay is improved dramatically over, uh, earlier years and athlete exposure is massively improved. So it- it's a very encouraging thing. Uh-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       And the production's excellent.

   13. JDJohn Danaher1:45

       Yes. Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:46

       It's really good. It's, uh, great commentary and great-

   15. JDJohn Danaher1:49

       It- it- it's something where you could take someone who didn't know much about grappling, a friend of yours, invite them over, watch it together and- and they'll be like, "Hey, that's an impressive sport." And like, they- as you say, the production looks like it's- it's a legitimate sport, as opposed to, like, going to the local high school on a Saturday and watching you compete, and, um-

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       Yeah.

   17. JDJohn Danaher2:07

       ... in- in that fashion.

2. 2:08 – 8:17

   Why submission-hunting matters more than points (and why rules often fail)

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      Well, one of the things that's made the sport more palatable is the approach that your athletes take and many other athletes are following suit, is that it's a very submission-based approach instead of just trying to score points. Because I think there's been a problem with these rule sets, where, I mean, even though Abu Dhabi's done an amazing job of showcasing elite grapplers, there's something weird about their score ses- system. So the first f- was it first five minutes, there's no sc- points scored?

   2. JDJohn Danaher2:36

      That- that's correct, yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:37

      And then the next five minutes, you score points. So you see, you get guys stalling out for five minutes, so you almost guarantee a boring five minutes unless you have some sort of Marcelo Garcia attacker who just ju- just dives on submissions and goes after it right away.

   4. JDJohn Danaher2:51

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:51

      Which is not the norm. The norm is points-based guys who are just trying to win.

   6. JDJohn Danaher2:57

      That's correct. Um, as a general rule, you know, athletes are smart and they want to win. So, um, they will, as a general rule, always try to find the least risky way of attaining victory and doing the minimum amount of work in order to get to a- a win. Um, and yet the- the spectators are demanding something else. They're demanding entertainment. And in the sport of jujitsu, the most entertaining thing you can do is to push the action towards submission holds. And submissions function in grappling the same way a knockout punch does in boxing. And it's the most desired result. It's also the most impressive result. If you think, Joe, back to when you first started jujitsu, what was its primary appeal? Well, I think for the overwhelming majority of practitioners of jujitsu is the idea of submission. Because-

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:50

      I think that's the only appeal.

   8. JDJohn Danaher3:51

      Yeah. It's-

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:52

      I don't- I don't think you could ever say to anybody, "I find it appealing to win on points."

   10. JDJohn Danaher3:55

       Yeah, or- or-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:56

       It's ridiculous.

   12. JDJohn Danaher3:56

       ... or even worse, on advantage.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:57

       Yeah. Like, just wrestle, if you wanna do that. Yeah.

   14. JDJohn Danaher3:59

       Yeah. It's, um... When- when you look at, uh, at jujitsu, what makes it remarkable is the idea that it's a form of grappling where the outcome is determined in a way which- it- it's understandable to anyone. It's- it's surrender. You make someone surrender to you. Like, um, as impressive as, uh, judo, wrestling are a sports, the mechanism by which they win, in judo's case, the ippon throw, they do have submissions in judo but they're much less emphasized. Um, and in wrestling, a pin, they're not as decisive. Like, y- y- you know, it's easy to imagine someone who got pinned with their shoulders on the mat for three seconds but came back to win the fight. That's not a difficult thing to conceive of. It's easy to conceive of someone who got thrown pretty hard and still kept fighting and won. But when you surrender, that- that's you saying, "I quit. It's over." And that's the most definitive form of victory possible in- in any ma- uh, form of grappling. And that, I think, was the true appeal of jujitsu. The further you get away from the idea that jujitsu is about control leading to submission, the less interesting the sport becomes. And, um, we must do as much as possible to push athletes towards that- that- that form of, uh, that expression of jujitsu. Don't just win by the minimum amount to get the job done, but go the extra distance and try to win by submission. Now, you- you just mentioned the name of Marcelo Garcia. He was one of a handful of athletes, you- you see, um, Roger Gracie was another, who at a time when the rule set didn't demand it, went out of their way to go the extra distance and fight from beginning to end for submission. And what do you notice about those athletes?

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:49

       They're legends.

   16. JDJohn Danaher5:50

       They're legends. They're loved to a degree which all those other athletes, and don't forget, they both lost. Okay? They both had their losses. They weren't undefeatable. But they're legends because of the way they fought...... as much as for the victories themselves.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:06

       Yeah, they represented true jujitsu.

   18. JDJohn Danaher6:08

       They represented the ideal of control to submission. And there's a sense in which athletes have to understand, if you want to build a brand in jujitsu, you can't just go with that minimalist approach of do enough to win, be happy with that. And you have to go into expressing the ideal of jujitsu. Now, the natural response on the part of many organizers is to try and create rules which force athletes against their will to go the extra distance. That was the intention in ADCC, the Abu Dhabi, um, uh, approach. They, they took away points in the first five minutes so that athletes would be encouraged to go for submission holds. Now, some of them were, but as you correctly pointed out, most of them weren't. They actually used it not as a means of encouraging submission, but actually avoiding any form of contact and making for a very boring first five minutes in many cases. Um, so what I truly believe is that it, there's never going to be a rule set which forces athletes towards submission. The way it's gonna change is through culture. It's gotta come, I believe, from coaches creating a culture where athletes strive for a higher ideal in jujitsu, which is control to submission rather than minimum, uh, uh, advantage or points to score a win and, and be happy. It's gotta come from a training room culture rather than rules. A good athlete can always game the rules to get the minimum, uh, method of victory. There's always a way. Uh, like just as a lawyer will find any interpretation of a, of a law in order to get the result they seek, so too an athlete can find any interpretation of the rules to get to the minimal win. So it's not gonna come from rules. They've tried in the past and it just hasn't worked. In fact, it's actually had some negative connotations as, as you pointed out. Um, so it's gotta come from a training room culture, and that's what I try to do with my squad.

3. 8:17 – 10:32

   EBI overtime and the unintended consequence of ‘stall to win’ strategies

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:17

      When you see rule sets like EBI where they put people in particular positions like back mount or-

   2. JDJohn Danaher8:23

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:23

      ... spiderweb, arm bar, uh, defense, what do you think about that approach? About going to a certain amount of time and then ... See, the, there, there's ... The pro and con is the pro is you're forced to ... Y- you're, you're in a real bad situation from the jump, either back mount or, uh, arm bar defense. The con is that you didn't really get there. You kinda got forced into that position, which is very odd, to, for someone who has insane defense and they never get their back taken and all of a sudden you, you, you start out with hooks in, you know, arm across, and ready, go. And then you have to fight your way out of it. What do you feel about those?

   4. JDJohn Danaher9:01

      Um, it was a fascinating rule set. It's actually the rule set by which the squad, uh, originally made their name, um, uh, long before their successes in ADCC. Um, unfortunately, it, too, runs into problems with athletes gaming the system. Um, there's a trend among many athletes now just to stall for the entire 10 minutes of regulation knowing that they've spent most of their training resources on the overtime and they can win in the overtime. So it creates the same sense in which the athletes won't change. Um, I was always very proud of the fact that I had three athletes, uh, Garry Tonon did it twice actually, uh, Eddie Cummings and, uh, Gordon Ryan, who achieved, uh, a 100% success rate in regulation time. I believe they were the only athletes who ever achieved that. Um, in other words, they didn't see overtime as a desirable thing. They, they all considered overtime as kind of like, ugh, you, you failed. If you had to get to overtime, it was a failure. Um, whereas many of the athletes now see overtime as the best strategy to win. Avoid contact for 10 minutes, then try to win in overtime. So unfortunately even EBI runs into the same problem of athletes gaming the system. Um, and so I'll, I'll just repeat my point that, uh, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what system you offer. It, uh, people will find a way to, to use the rules to their advantage and that ultimately the solution lies not in rules, but in the training culture in the gyms that you come from.

4. 10:32 – 14:08

   No time-limit matches: purity vs practicality (and pacing psychology)

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:32

      Ideally, um, in my opinion, uh, a no time limit submission match is the way to go.

   2. JDJohn Danaher10:39

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:39

      That's the way you find out whether or not-

   4. JDJohn Danaher10:40

      Unfortunately, it's, it's impractical as a TV event.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:44

      Yeah. Very.

   6. JDJohn Danaher10:44

      But, uh, I, I, I couldn't agree more. There, there's no more definitive result than a no time limit match. There's n- uh, it's hard to argue with the result.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:52

      I feel like it's, uh, it, it's, it's not good for TV but we're not on TV. We're streaming. It's no different than a podcast in my opinion. Like if someone, if I went to a television network and said, "I have this idea. I wanna have these three-hour conversations." They'll, "What kind of people?" "Well, one day I'm gonna have a jujitsu coach, and the other day I'm gonna have a scientist, and then the, and they-" Get the fuck outta here. That's not gonna work.

   8. JDJohn Danaher11:13

      That's true.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:14

      But it will work if it's good. And I feel that with streaming and jujitsu. I feel like why would we ... Like if you got Gordon Ryan and Cyborg to agree to a match, say Gordon's healthy again, why would you have a time limit on that? I wanna see that play out.

   10. JDJohn Danaher11:30

       You, you're talking to-

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:31

       Yes.

   12. JDJohn Danaher11:32

       ... someone who agrees with you here, may I say.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:33

       I know I am. (laughs)

   14. JDJohn Danaher11:34

       (laughs) Um, uh, uh, I, I will try and play devil's advocate from the, uh, from the point of view of the producers of a show. They run multiple, um, uh, matches per show. And-

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:47

       Good. Do it all day.

   16. JDJohn Danaher11:48

       (laughs) Um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:49

       Start, start at 5:00 PM.

   18. JDJohn Danaher11:51

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       Run that bitch 'til midnight.

   20. JDJohn Danaher11:52

       Um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       Let's see what's up.

   22. JDJohn Danaher11:53

       Yeah. It's, uh, it's a tough one in terms of like, you know, how you're gonna get the warmups done. Like, uh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:58

       Yeah.

   24. JDJohn Danaher11:58

       ... uh, I don't know. This match in front of me could be four hours long. Um-

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:03

       That's true.

   26. JDJohn Danaher12:04

       When do I begin my warmup for the-

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:05

       Well-

   28. JDJohn Danaher12:05

       ... for the next match?

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:06

       I think the way you do it is you have time limits for the preliminary bouts. But then when you get to the big fights, when you get to the like-

   30. JDJohn Danaher12:14

       This I believe could be practical.
5. 14:08 – 19:40

   From wrestling stories to MMA history: Mark Schultz, Rickson, and Hollywood rewriting facts

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:08

      Yeah, but maybe not have that for a complete beginner. Maybe, y- you know, that's like the king of kings. Let's, let's see what's up. Let's get into... I remember, I read a story about, uh, when Mark Schultz first rolled with Rickson Gracie.

   2. JDJohn Danaher14:20

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:20

      And he put Rickson in a cradle for an hour.

   4. JDJohn Danaher14:24

      (laughs) Really?

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:25

      Yeah.

   6. JDJohn Danaher14:26

      That's amazing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:26

      He just had him in the cradle and just was h- hanging onto him and it fucking lasted forever. I don't know if it's true, but I remember reading that and just imagining Rickson just breathing his breathing exercises just waiting, and Rickson eventually got out and strangled him.

   8. JDJohn Danaher14:40

      Amazing.

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:41

      But it took a while.

   10. JDJohn Danaher14:42

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:43

       You know, Mark was a freak athlete.

   12. JDJohn Danaher14:45

       He was a freak athlete, yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:46

       I mean, he was an amazing wrestler. When you see him... Have you ever seen the video of him, um, I forget, I think it was the man from Iran or Turkey, I forget who the guy was but-

   14. JDJohn Danaher14:55

       Oh, you're talking about the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:56

       ... he hit the Kimura?

   16. JDJohn Danaher14:57

       ... the 1984 Olympics, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:58

       Yes.

   18. JDJohn Danaher14:58

       He fought the, uh, the Turkish, uh, athlete. I believe the Turk was actually the favorite and he was the world champ from the previous year, I believe. And, uh, yeah, he legitimately broke his arm with Kimura.

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:08

       Yeah, he tore it apart.

   20. JDJohn Danaher15:10

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:10

       I mean it was a w- see if you can find that 'cause it's pretty wild. I mean, it, first of all, he's just a ball of muscle.

   22. JDJohn Danaher15:18

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       I mean, Mark Schultz in his prime was a fucking savage.

   24. JDJohn Danaher15:22

       I understand he was actually a gymnast before he was a wrestler.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       I believe it.

   26. JDJohn Danaher15:26

       And he started wrestling relatively late and his brother Dave-

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:28

       Really?

   28. JDJohn Danaher15:29

       ... started much earlier than him.

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       Wow.

   30. JDJohn Danaher15:30

       And, uh, and convinced him to try it. (crowd cheering)
6. 19:40 – 27:57

   Arm breaks, leverage, and the danger zone: from Schultz to Jacaré vs Muniz

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:40

      Yeah. The Jacare Souza fight from against, uh, Muniz from, uh, a couple weeks ago.

   2. JDJohn Danaher19:47

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan19:47

      How insane was that?

   4. JDJohn Danaher19:48

      Am- amazing. And again, the, the bone breaking-

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:51

      Yeah.

   6. JDJohn Danaher19:51

      ... rather than the, uh, the soft tissue of the elbow.

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:54

      And so loud too.

   8. JDJohn Danaher19:55

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:55

      Oh my God, when I was in-

   10. JDJohn Danaher19:56

       Clearly audible. E- even as it happened, you knew what had happened.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:59

       Mm-hmm, yeah. Have you seen a guy's arm break in that position before?

   12. JDJohn Danaher20:02

       Yes.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:02

       You have?

   14. JDJohn Danaher20:03

       Yeah, yeah. Um, the, uh, juji-gatame, the straight arm lock is, uh, uh, always compounded when the forearm is captured behind the back.

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:13

       Mm.

   16. JDJohn Danaher20:13

       It creates a much more, uh, efficient interplay between lever and fulcrum and, um, and much, much harder to twist out and deny the effects of leverage. And, uh, so you see some particularly nasty breaks with them, with that version.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:26

       That one was scary to me because I was picturing, like, training room situations. And I was like, "That..." Like, there wasn't a lot of time to tap there.

   18. JDJohn Danaher20:33

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:34

       It happened pretty quickly.

   20. JDJohn Danaher20:35

       Yeah. Anytime you start with, um, uh, the arm captured behind the back, the arm's already extended when the lock begins. And the degree of safety in any joint lock is always reflected on the, uh, by, by the degree to which the joint is already close to breaking point at its inception. Uh, so for example, normally when you get attacked in juji-gatame, your hands are locked defensively so there's a 90-degree bend in your arm. So there's a long range of motion before it's threatening, uh, a- any form of, uh, of catastrophic damage. But when the arm is trapped behind the back, you already start with a straight arm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:13

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JDJohn Danaher21:14

       And so any small movement forward will take it into the breaking zone.

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:17

       See if you can find that. I don't know if the UFC's pulled that offline. Do they, do they have that? It's gotta be somewhere, someone must've put it on YouTube. It's, uh, very interesting. And what's interesting is Muniz said before the fight that he believed he had a grappling advantage over Jacare.

   24. JDJohn Danaher21:30

       Interesting.

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:31

       Which is wild talk, right?

   26. JDJohn Danaher21:33

       Um-

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:33

       That's wild talk.

   28. JDJohn Danaher21:34

       T- talk is one thing. Um, justification is another. What was his reasoning for saying that?

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:39

       Well, I don't-

   30. JDJohn Danaher21:40

       D- did he just make the statement or did he argue for it?
7. 27:57 – 31:51

   Referees, stand-ups, and why grappling needs less intervention

   1. JRJoe Rogan27:57

      Do you remember when Demian Maia had Kamaru Usman's back standing and they separated them?

   2. JDJohn Danaher28:04

      Yes. Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:05

      I was throwing shit at the TV watching that the other day going-

   4. JDJohn Danaher28:09

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:09

      ... "What the fuck?"

   6. JDJohn Danaher28:11

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:11

      'Cause I remembered it at the time and then I remember watching it again-

   8. JDJohn Danaher28:15

      Because Demian finished a lot of people in that position.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:17

      And it was dry and it was early and it's like, why would you separate them?

   10. JDJohn Danaher28:23

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:23

       Sep- I think if you're gonna have five-minute rounds, which is so short in terms of grappling, right? And Craig Jones argued this yesterday, like how hard it is to finish a guy who doesn't even wanna engage if you're just, you know, you only have five minutes. You should have no standups ever.

   12. JDJohn Danaher28:40

       I, I, I couldn't agree more, but unfortunately, yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:42

       People get mad at me. They go, "Boo!"

   14. JDJohn Danaher28:43

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan28:44

       "That's boring!" But if you can't get up, you shouldn't get up.

   16. JDJohn Danaher28:48

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:49

       If a guy can take you down and hold you down, tough shit.

   18. JDJohn Danaher28:52

       Um, I'm, m- my bias is always towards as little referee's intervention as possible.

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:57

       Might as well. Yeah.

   20. JDJohn Danaher28:58

       And, um, unfortunately, that's very much the minority view.

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:02

       I've seen people get stood up from side control-

   22. JDJohn Danaher29:04

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:05

       ... which is crazy.

   24. JDJohn Danaher29:06

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:06

       That is just, it's so hard to get someone in side control.

   26. JDJohn Danaher29:09

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:09

       And you only have a few minutes to work and you hear the referee going, "Let's work! Let's work!" Like, I don't know if it's referees with no grappling, uh, understanding, if they don't really understand how difficult it is to advance position and to, to finish someone or if they're just playing to the, the crowd's-

   28. JDJohn Danaher29:24

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:24

       ... you know, cheers and boos.

   30. JDJohn Danaher29:26

       I, I think, um, unquestionably, it's gotta be tough when you just hear an entire audience booing just to be, to stick to your guns and say, "Let him go."
8. 31:51 – 38:19

   Adapting jiu-jitsu to MMA: the real problem is keeping opponents down

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:51

      When you're training athletes for jujitsu ... And one of the interesting things about the Gordon Gr- Ryan conversation that I had recently, I didn't know that you are Garry Tonon's striking coach as well. Which is-

   2. JDJohn Danaher32:02

      Oh, yeah. Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:03

      ... pretty amazing-

   4. JDJohn Danaher32:05

      Oh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:05

      ... that you can do both, that you can train them in both jujitsu and also train them in striking. And I know you have a background in striking, but still. When you're training an athlete like Garry, um, if you're training someone like Gordon for jujitsu, I'm sure there's some emphasis on takedowns, but it's not a primary concern. The primary concern is submissions, right? Like, the- oftentimes, you'll see, um, Garry will sit-

   6. JDJohn Danaher32:32

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:32

      ... he'll pull guard. The, all these things that are not possible in MMA or very rare.

   8. JDJohn Danaher32:37

      That's correct, yes.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:38

      What ... How much of a shift is it to train them for mixed martial arts? Because you're clearly training him to strike and training him to strike, but ultimately, the s- the skill set, the best part of their skill set involves in submission.

   10. JDJohn Danaher32:53

       That's correct. Um, the big challenge for most jujitsu players when they try to apply their, their craft in mixed martial arts is one, can they get it to the ground? That's a challenge in itself. And an even greater challenge is, can you keep it on the ground? Okay, it means nothing if you take someone down if they just spring back up within three to five seconds. It's, it's energy s- spent that had no reward. Um, a sad thing about jujitsu is that when it's practiced there's almost always a kind of gentleman's agreement that there's gonna be a top player and a bottom player. And if you start in the bottom, you stay in the bottom. The moment you get into a mixed martial arts context, that goes right out the window, and now you have two responsibilities. You don't just have to pass your opponent's guard from top position, you have to hold them down while you're doing it. And that's, that's not easy. Um, when you look at the notion of escape in jujitsu, the overwhelming majority of escapes in the sport of jujitsu are escapes to guard position. If you're mounted, you elbow escape, you put him back in guard. If the guy's got the side pin on you, you elbow escape, put him back in guard. If the guy's behind you, you do a forward roll, spin back into him, put him back in guard. 90% of the escapes in jujitsu are escapes back to guard position. And so when you start in bottom position you tend to stay in bottom position. Now contrast that with the sport of wrestling where the overwhelming majority of escapes are escapes to standing back up to a neutral position on your feet. That means that when jujitsu players face other forms of grappling, they're not trying to put us back in guard, they're trying to stand up. And jujitsu players never practice against that when they're doing their daily training.

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:49

       Mm.

   12. JDJohn Danaher34:50

       And so suddenly you've got a guy who just assumes for his entire career that if he's on top, the other guy's gonna play guard. And this guy's not playing guard at all, he's just pushing you ahead, standing up and hip-ricing up to his feet. The jujitsu guy's like, "Well, what h- ... I had top position. Why aren't you playing guard?" And so they're now put into an area where nothing in their training has really prepared them for this. And jujitsu's going to have to mature. I've always said jujitsu's one of the greatest products I ever saw in my life. I wouldn't have invested 30 years of my life in jujitsu if I didn't believe that with all my heart and all my soul. But like any great product, it has its deficiencies. Jujitsu always had three major deficiencies: leg locks, takedowns, and thirdly, the one that no one talks about, the ability to impose top position once it's gained. A huge part of my career has been the recognition and the attempt to change these three great faults in jujitsu. As much as I love jujitsu, we've got to take a step back and take an honest look at it. It's got these three deeply en- entwined faults within it. Leg locks was the most obvious one. In a game which was supposedly all about control leading to submission, there was an arbitrary rule that 50% of the body couldn't be attacked. That was lunacy. And over the last 10 years, I believe it's fair to say we've reached a point where that is no longer the case, that that is a great weakness within jujitsu. The younger generation of jujitsu, I would match them against any grappling art in the world on leg locks with no fear whatsoever. They, uh, I couldn't have said that 15 years ago. But things have changed. Now we need to address the other two great weaknesses. Jujitsu has to do something about the crisis which is starting to emerge around takedowns and the ability to impose top position. What you're seeing among jujitsu athletes now who go into mixed martial arts is they just have to turn to other arts. They have to learn wrestling, they have to learn these, and there's nothing wrong with that, but-... the truth is that jujitsu has become a relative, a smaller and smaller component of mixed martial arts rather than what it was when it first started, which was a dominant force in mixed martial arts. Now, for most of the athletes, jujitsu is something you learn to stay out of some pesky submission holds. It's not the be all and focus for most of the athletes in mixed martial arts. Most of them are centered around kickboxing skills and, and wrestling. Um, I think that we've done a great job of overcoming one out of three great problems in jujitsu. But there's still two more to go. I don't believe it's a satisfactory answer. I believe it's a cop-out to say, "Well, just learn some wrestling." Just as many people told me 20 years ago, "Oh, you wanna learn leg locks? Just do some sambo." I was never happy with that answer, so I didn't do it. Okay, first of all, sambo as a sport doesn't even allow heel hooks. It only allows straight leg locks, knee bars and Achilles locks. There's no heel hooks in, in competition sambo. And so if I'd just taken that approach of learn another martial art, learn leg locks from that, the whole heel hook revolution never would have taken off.

9. 38:19 – 44:24

   Where heel hooks came from—and why technique names and history are messy

   1. JRJoe Rogan38:19

      Where did the heel hook originate from?

   2. JDJohn Danaher38:22

      Originate? I- I can't give an accurate answer. Um, when I began jujitsu in the 1990s, most of the early people I saw implying, uh, employing heel hooks were from Japan, people like Rominha Satto.

   3. JRJoe Rogan38:33

      Mm.

   4. JDJohn Danaher38:34

      Um, uh-

   5. JRJoe Rogan38:35

      Imanari.

   6. JDJohn Danaher38:36

      Imanari's a little bit after, uh, Satto.

   7. JRJoe Rogan38:39

      Yeah.

   8. JDJohn Danaher38:39

      But yeah, he was definitely one of them. Um, and so it's tough to say where its origins are. There's no mention of it in, uh, in judo textbooks. The, the one leg lock they mention, um, is just a, a hackneyed version of a, um, of a knee reap. Not very effective. Um-

   9. JRJoe Rogan38:58

      Is it possible that it's a catch wrestling technique?

   10. JDJohn Danaher39:00

       It's possible, but-

   11. JRJoe Rogan39:01

       'Cause that's a lot of what came-

   12. JDJohn Danaher39:02

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan39:03

       ... to Japan, right?

   14. JDJohn Danaher39:03

       Yeah. Um, but then it's, uh, it's, uh, the, the history of catch wrestling is... I, I, I'm no expert in it, but there's, there's so many competing points of views and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan39:13

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JDJohn Danaher39:13

       ... uh, there's so little reliable information. There's very little video or, or photographs which definitively show, you know, the application of them. Um, uh, they do... Uh, uh, there's video footage of Helio Gracie demonstrating a heel hook. It's a, it's not a particularly well applied heel hook, but it's, it is recognizably a heel hook. Um, so it seems that they did know about it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:38

       And this is from the '20s or '30s or-

   18. JDJohn Danaher39:40

       Uh, no. No. I'm, I'm, I'm guessing this would be-

   19. JRJoe Rogan39:41

       ... later in life?

   20. JDJohn Danaher39:42

       Uh, I'm guessing by his age, this would be, like, '70s. He, he looked pretty old when he was, he was doing it. Um, so it appears that there was knowledge of it. Uh, but as to its origins, uh, I can't give you a, any accurate statement on that. I can't give you any evidence-based statements.

   21. JRJoe Rogan40:00

       It's a really good question. Like when-

   22. JDJohn Danaher40:01

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan40:01

       ... did it, when was it first applied in competition-

   24. JDJohn Danaher40:03

       Yeah. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan40:03

       ... uh, on a large scale?

   26. JDJohn Danaher40:04

       Uh, but I, uh, I've never seen any compelling evidence to say this is, like, the first ev- you know-

   27. JRJoe Rogan40:10

       Yeah.

   28. JDJohn Danaher40:10

       ... examples. Um, for example, the, the triangle stranglehold, um, there's very strong evidence to s- suggest that its origins are shortly before the, the First World War. There appears to have been no use of the, the triangle prior to that. Um, so we do have a pretty good idea that the, the triangle stranglehold started sometime around 1910 to 1913 in Japan. There seems to be no evidence of, uh, of triangles used before that. There's no mention of them in Greek textbooks of pankration or any- anything.

   29. JRJoe Rogan40:42

       Hmm. What art was it used in in Japan?

   30. JDJohn Danaher40:45

       Uh, in judo competition.
10. 44:24 – 53:48

    Modern martial arts acceleration vs boxing’s steadier evolution (and the pad-work revelation)

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:24

       It's so fascinating that although martial arts have been around for so long, so many thousands of years, that we can really trace very recent spectacular progress. Like, from 1993, from the original UFC, to 2021 where we're at today, what a spectacular explosion of ability, of innovation, of just the level of technique is so much higher than it ever was before. I don't think there's another thing like it in terms of athletics. If you look at any other sport, there is incremental increases in the abilities of the athletes, but nothing comparable to martial arts.

    2. JDJohn Danaher45:08

       I'm so glad you said this, because, um, we're- we're very privileged to live as martial artists in this age. This is, in my opinion, is the most exciting time for martial artists to be alive that I'm aware of.

    3. JRJoe Rogan45:22

       Yes.

    4. JDJohn Danaher45:22

       Maybe in ancient Greece, maybe they had something with pankration that was more exciting then, but you'd have to show me some pretty damn good evidence.

    5. JRJoe Rogan45:28

       If you could take Gordon Ryan and bring him back to ancient Greece, he would fuck those dudes up. Do you know how easy it would be? You know how amazing it would be? All those guys would line up, bring their champions, and they'd be like, "What is he doing?"

    6. JDJohn Danaher45:40

       I- in general, I- I would agree with you. I, um... As a general rule, I believe that later generations almost always beat earlier generations. Like Jesse Owens was a great sprinter, but Usain Bolt would destroy him in a foot race. It's... there's just no getting around that.

    7. JRJoe Rogan45:54

       The only place where I make exceptions is boxing, 'cause I think there are boxers from the old era that just would be spectacular no matter what. I think Muhammad Ali would be... especially when he was Cassius Clay, before he was-

    8. JDJohn Danaher46:08

       Hmm. Yes. Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:09

       ... stripped of his title. You take the guy who beat Cleveland Big Cat Williams and I think he boxes with almost anybody of every- any era. I think he's just amazing. Marvin Hagler. I think if you take Marvin Hagler, stick him in with any middle weight champion of all time, in any time, in any- any era of boxing, and you're- you're just dealing with a champion. I mean, just- just... Because there's not much difference in boxing. Like, there's... You see some unique approaches like Floyd Mayweather and his shoulder roll and his- his incredible defense, and you see it... We were talking before this podcast, when we were talking about Canelo Alvarez, how he learned from the Floyd Mayweather fight.

    10. JDJohn Danaher46:46

        Yes.

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:47

        His head movement and... So you're seeing these steps where they're learning, but go back to Willie Pep. Go back to Pernell Whitaker. I mean-

    12. JDJohn Danaher46:54

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:54

        ... Pern- Pernell Whitaker had spectacular defense.

    14. JDJohn Danaher46:57

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan46:57

        Agreed, yeah.

    16. JDJohn Danaher46:58

        Um-

    17. JRJoe Rogan46:58

        I mean-

    18. JDJohn Danaher46:58

        ... I- I- I hear you, Joe, and- and I think there's some, some good arguments to suggest that you're- you may be onto something here. Let's look, for example, at, um, Sugar Ray Leonard versus Floyd- Floyd Mayweather's father.

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:12

        Hmm.

    20. JDJohn Danaher47:12

        Which was a classic fight, by the way.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:14

        Yes.

    22. JDJohn Danaher47:14

        Wonderful match.

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:15

        Amazing fight.

    24. JDJohn Danaher47:16

        Um, now, um, you get to see just how good Sugar Ray Leonard was in the 19, uh, 1980s with that match. Now you could make the argument, as Sugar Ray Leonard does to this day, that Floyd Mayweather isn't that much better than his father was, that they're of comparable skill level. And- and you could argue on that basis, exactly as you said, that maybe some of those guys from the 1980s would have gone against the best guys of this generation and done just fine. Um, the difficulty, of course, is it's difficult to measure combat sports.

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:51

        Yeah.

    26. JDJohn Danaher47:51

        Uh, in the case of, uh, Olympic sprinting, there's an obvious measurement here, time. And, uh, and so you see the progress more clearly. Nonetheless, as a general rule, I do think, even in combat sports, earlier generations tend to lose to later generations in most cases. There could be some exceptions, but I think, for example, if Kimura, who was the greatest judo player of his generation, went up against Yamashita, even if you took away the size difference, I just think Yamashita wins. Just- he just knows more. He's just had the benefits of- of, um... The insights of one generation pile upon the next, and the next, and the next. They create a compounding effect in learning, where the athletes from a later generation start from a higher point than their predecessors did. And so as a general rule, I'll always favor the- the- the more recent generations over previous generations. But, um, to your credit, I do think there are some exceptions in- in combat sports more than other sports.

    27. JRJoe Rogan48:50

        I- I agree with you as a general rule. Uh, the exception I make is boxing. The reason why I make that exception in boxing is 'cause I don't think the progress has been as spectacular as it's been in martial arts, and I don't think the approach is as comprehensive as it is in grappling or, clearly, in mixed martial arts.

    28. JDJohn Danaher49:06

        Interesting.

    29. JRJoe Rogan49:07

        Mixed- in mixed martial arts, I don't think there's any argument whatsoever-

    30. JDJohn Danaher49:09

        Yeah.
11. 53:48 – 1:04:07

    Movies that shape fighters: Rocky, Bloodsport, Bruce Lee—and Joe’s origin story

    1. GUGuest53:48

       I just look at all that, all Rocky does-

    2. JRJoe Rogan53:50

       Rocky.

    3. GUGuest53:50

       ... in the thing. He only hits that and meat. And the rest of it, he's not doing anything. He's-

    4. JRJoe Rogan53:54

       Doesn't he hit... He doesn't hit a heavy bag?

    5. GUGuest53:55

       He's just, um, meat in the meat locker, and then he's doing push-ups and running. That's it.

    6. JRJoe Rogan54:00

       And sit-ups.

    7. GUGuest54:01

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan54:02

       Yeah. The meat thing. Terrible technique, Rocky.

    9. JDJohn Danaher54:07

       (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan54:07

        (laughs) It's funny. (laughs) Go back and watch those old movies. You're like, "Hey, straighten that up, man."

    11. JDJohn Danaher54:15

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan54:15

        Come on.

    13. JDJohn Danaher54:16

        And yet th- those crazy old movies probably started more people boxing or, and doing martial arts than, than all of the technically perfect demonstrations of boxi- uh, boxing technique in, in actual sports. I'm sure more people started boxing watching Rocky than by watching Roberto Duran actually box.

    14. JRJoe Rogan54:32

        That's absolutely true. I'm sure. I'm sure of it.

    15. JDJohn Danaher54:35

        Same thing with Bloodsport in martial arts.

    16. JRJoe Rogan54:36

        Yeah.

    17. JDJohn Danaher54:36

        I mean, you look at Bloodsport, it's like, it's like a comedy show.

    18. JRJoe Rogan54:39

        (laughs)

    19. JDJohn Danaher54:39

        And yet... (laughs) I'm like-

    20. JRJoe Rogan54:41

        Sure.

    21. JDJohn Danaher54:41

        How many people started out at Bloodsport? More than started by watching the UFC I'm quite certain.

    22. JRJoe Rogan54:46

        Yeah, I think if you could go back in martial arts and trace like what started more people in martial arts, I think it's Bruce Lee.

    23. JDJohn Danaher54:53

        Hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan54:54

        I would think it's Bruce Lee.

    25. JDJohn Danaher54:55

        That's, uh... I think you might be right about that, yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan54:58

        'Cause that started me.

    27. JDJohn Danaher55:00

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan55:00

        I mean, I was throwing kicks and was doing all that.

    29. JDJohn Danaher55:03

        Now, is- isn't that crazy? What year did you start martial arts?

    30. JRJoe Rogan55:05

        Well, I started fucking around when I was like 11-ish, somewhere around there that I, I took a kung fu class, and I would like fuck around with my friends. I didn't s-
12. 1:04:07 – 1:18:20

    The universal ‘finishing’ ideal: knockout/submission power plus defensive soundness

    1. JDJohn Danaher1:04:07

       Um, probably the, the, the single most impressive thing in, in martial arts is the ability to finish a fight. Like, and having that ability changes the very way in which you fight, as you described with your, with your, with your mentor. Um, and you see the same thing in jujitsu. Like, if you, if you know that if you get ahold of this guy's arm, leg, or neck, it's, it's literally just done.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:04:34

       Yes.

    3. JDJohn Danaher1:04:34

       You got the mechanics to just put him away. You can endure anything. You can be pinned, held down, passed, everything, and you'll just bide your time and get to that abil- and, and then get to that finishing position. It, it gives you a kind of, uh, relaxation in, in the storm of, of competition where you just say, "Okay, I can be behind. I can be down on points, but if I get ahold of you, it's done."

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:04:58

       Yes.

    5. JDJohn Danaher1:04:58

       And it's, uh, it's a, it's a true... Like, I don't wanna, I, I don't wanna use the word superpower, but in the realm of martial arts, it is a kind of a superpower, the ability just to finish at any given time. It's a, it's a different thing when you fight someone who you know can knock you out with a single punch. Like, there's, you know, Francis Ngannou is a tough opponent to deal with because you make even a single error and it's just goodnight.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:05:20

       He's the ultimate example of that.

    7. JDJohn Danaher1:05:22

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:05:22

       Yeah. 'Cause he's such a freak athlete. Just like how rare is it to see a man who's a natural 275 pounds, just enormous-

    9. JDJohn Danaher1:05:30

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:05:30

        ... person with just ridiculous power. You know, power is, it's the great equalizer. And we were talking about Canelo Alvarez before this too.

    11. JDJohn Danaher1:05:38

        Yes.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:05:38

        When we were talking about the fight with Billy Joe Saunders, when I was showing the picture of all the fractures-

    13. JDJohn Danaher1:05:43

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:05:43

        ... that Billy Joe got on his face. He's, to me, the perfect example of what's possible as a fighter, because although he has this one-shot power, he also has spectacular technique. He does everything right, everything right. His defense is on point, his timing, his, his footwork, his, everything is... He does everything so well, but also has that thunderous power where he puts it all together in such an intelligent and, and well-measured way. I mean, I fucking love watching that guy fight.

    15. JDJohn Danaher1:06:17

        Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:06:18

        'Cause he embodies like... Floyd has the spectacular talent and amazing technique, but he doesn't have that power. It's a different thing with a guy like Canelo because it's rare that someone has that kind of power, but yet also develops that kind of amazing defensive ability that he has.

    17. JDJohn Danaher1:06:35

        The integration of extreme finishing power with defensive soundness is the highest ideal in all of martial arts.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:06:45

        Yes.

    19. JDJohn Danaher1:06:45

        And you see it. When you see it, it's a truly special thing. Uh, you see the, the mature Canelo, uh, Alvarez, you see it in him.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:06:54

        Yeah.

    21. JDJohn Danaher1:06:54

        You saw it in the 1980s with Mike Tyson, a guy who could barely be hit at his peak.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:06:59

        Yes.

    23. JDJohn Danaher1:06:59

        It was hard to land a blow on Mike Tyson, but every blow he threw at you looked like he would take your head off. That, those are two extreme examples. Um, my job as a coach in jujitsu is to try and push my athletes towards that. My athletes are known for their ability to escape. Um, they can get into terrible situations and, and dig their way out. They proved that time and time again in early EBI competitions. Um, but at the same time, they have devastating finishes. And that, that martial arts ideal of the-

    24. GUGuest1:07:28

        ... extreme integration of the ability to finish, mixed with defensive soundness, is the direction you wanna push all martial arts whether they be grappling or striking.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:07:37

        It's one of the reasons why it's so fascinating to watch the approach of your athletes in comparison to some of these other athletes that have been competing for far longer. Because they're intimidated by the approach of these guys that are completely submission-based. And you see it, you see it in the reason why Gordon has such a hard time finding fights. You see it when these guys wind up talking about matching up, they want all these special rules. They wanna do different things, they wanna, they wanna figure out a w- They're kind of pushing away before they even engage.

    26. GUGuest1:08:09

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:08:09

        They're talking a lot of shit and they're puffing their chest up, but they're like, "Uh, how about we do an ɪn ɪ gɪ? You know, how about we do it this? How about we, uh, uh, ADCDC rules, how about we do this?" And there's all these different, you know, caveats that they wanna apply. And I think there's part of them that recognizes that they fucked up and they've been spending all this time trying to win on points, trying to stall, trying to do all these different things to be champions, but not embracing what is really truly spectacular about not just jiu-jitsu, but all martial arts-

    28. GUGuest1:08:42

        Yeah, yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:08:42

        ... what we're talking about.

    30. GUGuest1:08:42

        Yeah. Um, I, I agree that, that, um, that ability to, to manifest the ideal and that ideal based around, uh, the combination of defensive soundness and extreme ability to, to finish, um, it's like a, a, a universal appeal of martial arts. It's what took you in as a 15-year-old boy. It's what made you turn your entire life in that direction. Um, it's what I saw as potential as a 28-year-old man when I began jiu-jitsu. And, uh, uh, and I think the more we stay true to that principle, the better the future of jiu-jitsu looks.
13. 1:18:20 – 1:28:57

    Systems, decision speed, and scalable coaching: why the room matters more than one star

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:18:20

       Yeah, I think that the, the danger of martial arts and the danger of whether it's training or competition itself is one of the most intriguing aspects of it because it makes figuring out the problem so much harder. 'Cause I always, I always describe martial arts as high-level problem-solving with dire physical consequences.

    2. JDJohn Danaher1:18:44

       That's a very good definition.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:18:45

       Because it is this thing where you're, what you're really trying to do is overcome your fear, your anxiety, your emotions, and also apply technique, strategy, explosive force, conditioning, and discipline because you have had to put the time in and training in order to get your vehicle to be functional in this extreme environment. You're, you're responsible for adding the horsepower to the engine. You're responsible for tuning the suspension. All these things are done through discipline and hard work. If you don't do those things, your body doesn't function well enough for you to even apply your own knowledge. So there's so many different levels to it. There's the actual technique, there's the knowledge of these techniques and how to apply them, and then there's the physical capabilities of your own body.

    4. JDJohn Danaher1:19:38

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:19:38

       And all of them together, they're, they're so-... the, it's so comprehensive. There's so much going on that when you meet the really truly elite players, whether it's Gordon, or Gary, or Hicks and Gracie, or Hodger, or Braulio Estima, or any of these elite athletes, they're exceptional human beings. Like, very, very unusual people with intense mindsets. And they are the people that figure their way through this insane maze. And by doing so, they have, they have provided an example of what's possible. They've, they've reached a very high level of human potential. And I think ultimately, that's what martial arts are about.

Episode duration: 3:24:22