EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,001 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- RGRickson Gracie
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) Thanks for being here, sir. Always good to see you.
- RGRickson Gracie
It's always my pleasure, brother.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Always good to see you. And, uh, it was good to talk to you, uh, before the podcast. We were talking about how you go into the cold plunge with a snorkel.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Tell me about that.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. The, the cold water shower, the ice water, has always been very helpful for me in terms of controlling emotions and feel peace, peaceful in hell.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RGRickson Gracie
So I was doing only ice bath, but I always put a snorkel and put my head under the water because if you keep your head off the water, it becomes very physical, very discomfortable, but doesn't hit the emotional aspect. You don't feel like you're gonna die because you don't feel the fear on your face, the discomfortable in your ears and your head which brings a different dimension of, of terrifying feelings. So I was putting the snorkel and getting under the water and breathing (breathes deeply) . When I achieved the calmness in my heart and lungs, I was ready to, to leave the water. I don't like to stay there for 10, 15 minutes. I stay there for one, two, three minutes at the most until I feel very peaceful. And because for me, it was more like f- spiritual than actually physical. I don't that, I don't, I'm not there to treat microtraumas or something. It was more to give me the sense of ready to die any point and feel like if you stay too long under the water, you're gonna die, so if you have, you have to be peaceful and the same time aware and, and develop courage, develop calmness, develop spiritual surrender. For me, it's all everything I need to perform well.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so you, y- y- you started doing cold water therapy a long time ago. I mean, it was obviously, it was in the movie Choke when you went into that frozen river.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
When did you start doing that?
- RGRickson Gracie
Soon I felt I, I have to develop some kind of terrifying experience to make my spiritual mind become comfortable. So big wave surf is always something which terrifying me, and I was exposing myself to the ocean to understand the emotion of the ocean and, and be comfortable in this kind of discomfortable situation. Also, cold water and, and, and other things I, I always do.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this was just always a part of y- developing yourself for fighting, developing yourself just for overall life?
- RGRickson Gracie
My, my life is a very unique one because since I start to understand my, my status of representing the family through jiu-jitsu, I put myself against the unknown, which is no weight division, no time limits, no rules, no size. So all those unpredictable aspects give me something which is different than just a sport like lifestyle. I was living more the life of a guy who is ready to anything anytime. So that kind of preparation requires not only the, the mental and the t- the technical preparation, but also the spiritual preparation. And sometimes, spiritually speaking, you have to understand how to accept things, how to surrender things, and, and be above their physicality or actually the fear of dying.
- JRJoe Rogan
And did you develop these concepts on your own? Did you, did you recognize that you needed to strengthen these aspects of your mind and your body as you were going through this journey?
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. Yes, definitely, because if you're gonna fight somebody, you don't know who it is, what technique he, h- h- he knows, what size he has, when he's gonna fight you, so it's all unpredictable. It's always unknown. And you have to be spiritually strong to accept the unknown comfortably. So my life was preparing myself for something I could not even expect what it is, is just be ready for anything. And that's required for me start to bringing, uh, scenarios and situations for me to become comfortable in these kind of situations totally unpredictables. So I like to use nature as a friend of... so the ocean, the rivers, the cold. I like to use the, the experience of breathing. When I was young with 12 years old, I was practicing with adults at the academy. So they take care of me, they play with me. And one blue belt strong guy get me in a headlock, which normally you have defense for it. But because I was kid, I was tired, and the guy was strong, I could not escape, and I tap. And I get so upset with the tapping because I knew it was not something, uh, I should do, technically speaking. So I went home. I stretch myself on a, on a, on a edge of a carpet and ask my brother host to roll me up in the carpet in 110 degrees humid B- Rio de Janeiro. And I was stressed, I mean, suffocated for a little while because I told him, "Just let me get out of here in 10 minutes." So the first and second minute was terrifying. I was hot. I could not feel the air. And I start to putting my mind on the ocean breeze, flying with seagulls, and get breeze on my face, and start to be calm. After 10 minutes, my brother unfold me. I was like a burrito.... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RGRickson Gracie
And, uh, and then I, I, I passed that experience. Some- somehow I passed through. In the same year, I did three more times. Until the point, I was getting rolled on the carpet, feeling nothing, stay waiting the time, and, and leave the carpet. So I was fixing myself emotionally with the ways I could feel like w- was the options I have, how I can suffocate myself and not die. So I was p- putting myself in some kinda obstacles just to feel comfortable. And after that, I never felt the panic, and I felt fighting anymore.
- JRJoe Rogan
And a lot of that panic can be r- resolved with w- another thing that you, uh, specialize in that ... which is breathing exercises.
- RGRickson Gracie
I feel like the big, the big difference I did on myself to be able to cap- capture more, more experience emotionally, and also spiritually, and also physically was breathing. The learning of breathing for me was the huge asset. Because up to that point, I was an athlete, I was training forever. I was running. I was doing everything I could do, but never with the feeling of full potential. When I start to learning how to f- really function in the breathing system, I start to understand. Because you can spend seven days without food. You can spend three days without water, but five minutes without breathing, you dead. So learning how to function in proper your breathing is not something you're gonna learn when you're born. 'Cause when you're born, you get slap on your butt, (gasps) and then you alive and well to, to follow your life. But it's much more than just (breathes) . It's the diaphragmatic breathing, which improves. Like, if I breathe wrong (breathes) . If I breathe right (breathes) . Wrong (breathes) . Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Short br- short breathing.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah. Because it's just on the top of your lungs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RGRickson Gracie
When you use the diaphragmatic breathing, you able to bring the air to the lower part, to the back part of your lungs, which triples the amount of air. So when you expert in moving your diaphragmatic breathing, use your diaphragagment- diaphragm effectively. You hyperventilate in a way, you may get exhausted physically, but your brain is still sharp enough to, to get the, the intelligence, the sharpness, the, the, the l- enlightenment you need to ... even when you f- f- f- f- f- like, fading away in muscle speaking, your brain is still cool and, and, and functioning. Because normally when you start to get tired, you start to getting fade in your brain and you start to make poor decisions. You become a little stupid and ... because there's no e- enough blood for everything. But if you know how to hyperventilate, you become much better in terms of absorbing, getting, fixing your physical, understand your m- mental, and be able also to use the, the spiritual.
- JRJoe Rogan
And when did you learn this stuff?
- RGRickson Gracie
Was just, uh, uh, a time developed to my passion, which was representing the family, representing the jiu-jitsu. And I have no instructors, you know, no mentors in terms ... Orlando Kani was my mentor in breathing, which I'm v- grateful for life. And after his experience, I become effective and know how to breathe, and meditate, and move, and become much more connected with my spiritual elements.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was Orlando's specialty? What did he do?
- RGRickson Gracie
He was a Army pentathlon champion in 1965.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Where did you learn,…
- RGRickson Gracie
how to control my emotions, how to be vis- visualizing what I want, all the aspects of the rational visualization and, and mindset. And also, my spiritual side, because if you f- gonna fight you don't know who, you have to learn how to not fear death. You have to learn how to have hope. You have to learn how to be patience, because different than passivity, patience is a quality. The lion stays behind the bush waiting for the zebra get close, patiently waiting for the kill. He's not passive. He's just patient. So for a, for a guy who gonna fight somebody with no, no weight division, no time limits, no rules, patience, hope, faith, visualization, those, uh, very important elements for a spiritual warrior, for a warrior who's in a situation has to improvise, different than same weight division, five minutes rounds, the rules are there, the set. So it's a completely different element of spirituality, in terms of acceptance, in terms of being engaged in something, you can die. I was expecting the best, but I was accepting the fact I could die trying, and quitting for me was not an option. So my life was being very much mold under that kinda pressure, which I have to make comfortable. So that situation put me in a s- in a f- facing my, my monsters in a very early age, and somehow, I have to deal with the monsters, you know, from breathing, from accepting death, from, from be able to perform under pressure, and things like that. And I have to p- you know, pick sometimes a cold bathe, sometimes going in a, in a heavy ocean, sometimes... Just to prove myself I could deal with nature and I could flow with ... In a various ugly scenarios and, and, um, and perform well because emotionally, I was in control. Spiritually, I was able to give the ... Give my acceptance and my spirituality.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where did you learn, uh, techniques for visualization?
- RGRickson Gracie
I think visualization is part of the process. Even before I know what it is, because I always been very competitive, because I always been very, very focused on what I want, that focus, that idea of winning, competing, what, what I have to l- ... So always keep me in a sense where the visualization put me in a sense I could win a fight in 10 seconds. I could win a fight in one minute. I could have a hard fight and win by points. I couldn't get a, a lose. I couldn't get a knockout. So I visualize everything. And even though I could get punch in the face and pass and, and, and get knocked down, I still visuali- visualizing I was able to s- survive in the garden, handle the storm, and able to get i- smart again and win the fi- So all the process, a hard fight, a easy fight, a impossible fight, and even death-It's part of a good visualization because you have all the scenarios in your mind. You review all them, you kinda pretty much comfortable with all the scenarios, even death.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when it's, it's fascinating to me that you... when you started, there really was no, uh... other than your father's fights and Carlson Gracie and some other people who had fights before you-
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... there was no history of it the way there is today. So it was really... like, the people that don't know, they think of MMA, they think of, uh, the UFC, and they think it's always been like this, or maybe they'll go back to the first UFCs. They, they don't really understand that for decades, you and your family were having these no rules fights, and they were having them in front of large audiences, and they're w- were facing all kinds of different styles, and there's no time limit. And it's a completely different experience.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes, completely different. Because the, the, the fight has a different purpose. It was not about the event. It's not about the entertainment. It's not about the, the money. It was about representing, it was a, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, a, a, um, a confrontation of styles or not exactly... people don't prepare themselves in all aspects of fighting. People represents karate or judo or boxing or wrestling. So the idea of putting jiu-jitsu in the number one spot was the comprom-... was the commitment we have, is if you put in the confrontation, we believe in jiu-jitsu to 200%. So that idea was the, the focus point for the whole preparation and the whole concept of making strategies and... because we're not expecting fighting another jiu-jitsu fighter. We're expecting to represent with jiu-jitsu against boxing, against wrestling, against all the styles.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was the... how old were you when you had your first match like that?
- RGRickson Gracie
My first professional was 19.
- JRJoe Rogan
19.
- RGRickson Gracie
Fight King Zulu-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RGRickson Gracie
... with 120 fights and four draws only, 120 victories.
- JRJoe Rogan
He was a big guy too.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah, about 210, 220. And about, uh, yeah, he was a big guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
How much do you weigh at the time?
- RGRickson Gracie
174.
- JRJoe Rogan
Those, uh, matches are still available online. People can watch them.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's pretty cool.
- RGRickson Gracie
I think so, yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it wild looking back at 19-year-old you fighting Zulu?
- RGRickson Gracie
Was a, maybe the biggest experience in my life because, at this point, I felt like I was good, I was able to, to fight well, but I didn't have the experience. So and then one day, I get home, I saw my father talking with his, uh, um, h-... Zulu's manager in Brasilia, the capital. And the, and the guy tried to bring, to invite my... somebody's... of my father team to fight Zulu. And my father was saying, "No, I don't have nobody. We don't fight Vale Tudo for so long, and nobody's training for." And I s-... I get the idea, I said, "Hey, dad, put me in, put me in, put me in." So I immediately asked him to... and he looked at me, and he mentioned to the, to the Waldemar Santana, said, "Yes, but I have my son here, 19 years old, he wanna try." And the guy said, "No, Mr.... Master Gracie, this is... this is not a fight for him to try. The guy is very tough," and this and that. As the guy tried to pull my father off the deal, my father becomes more excited to the... "No, but I think he gonna go handle the challenge," this and that. So he's become excited with the, the situation. So and then we set up the fight. One month later, I was there to fight. And, uh, we start the fight. And, uh, he has a trade, trade, uh, like a, uh, one move he does, which grab you with the hands between your legs and lift you up, and throw you over the... on your back on the floor. And as he approached that, I moved back, block his f-... his shoulders and hit him with the knee right on his face. It was the best knee I could possibly give in somebody. And I expect him to just... I expect to win the fight in right that... in that moment. But he just shook. H- h- he stood up, lift his head, shook, sp- he spit a tooth-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RGRickson Gracie
... and start back ready again to go, you know? And then I felt like it was really serious, and I... the thing was much serious than I expect. And for the next 10 minutes, because it was 10 minutes rounds, for the, for the f-... end of the round, we just engage and fall on the ring and come back in and back and out, and a lot of, a lot of commotion, a lot of strength. And in the end of the round, I kinda crawl into the corner, and I said to my dad, "Dad, I quit. I don't... I cannot go anymore. I'm tired." And my dad not even listened to me. He said, "He's tired than you. He's worse. Now we're gonna kick his ass," do this and that. I said, "Dad, I'm serious, man. I'm dead. I cannot go." And then my brother holds... throw me a bucket of ice and water in my head. I go, "Ah, huh." And then bang, the re-... the bell rings, and I push in again. And like my dad said, I could beat the guy in three minutes because he was already tired, wasted too. So when I grab his back, he could not escape, and I put him to sleep. And, uh, and then I confirmed my worst enemy was in my mind, was the... my enemy was in my brain, tell me I have to quit, I have to... so I decide in that day never hurt my, my mind, tell bad things to me anymore. So either I'm gonna die or I don't go. But if I go, I cannot say, "Oh, I think I had enough. I think it's time to..." So this was the worst enemy I could have. And from that day on, I decide to either go to putting everything on it or don't go at all.So it was easier for me because I would start to, to, to deal with one enemy only, not two enemies, the- my mind and my opponent.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's probably the most common thing that happens to fighters, is they, they lose faith in themselves or they, they start to look for a way out.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. That's pretty much, uh, because you don't see the other side. You see yourself and you see you tired, you see with problems, you start to see the negative aspects of you. And you're not putting yourself like, "The guy has the same problems. He has the same idea, so you have to keep going here as everything is normal." And it's hard to, to people relate to that, you know. When you start getting the problems, you start to see yourself bigger than the other ones, you know, more problems and more s-... And that's not gonna be the, the right way to resolve the matter.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's interesting that you figured out how to handle these things, uh, on your own too, because this is, uh, it's an area that fighters seek psychological help with now. They hire psychologists, and they, they get hypnotized, and they do all these different things to try to figure out how to stop that negative conversation in the mind, how to stop those negative voices, and how to not give in to that weakness that wants you to quit.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. This power, we all have within, but some people don't even go for that and they, they seek for different people to help them, which is good too. But once you s-... You become more intuitive, when you become more enlightened with your own potential, you're able to resolve all the matters yourself, you know, because it's all about your mindset. It's how you think and how you believe and what you ready for and what you prepare for and how you're able to, to accept and surrender everything around you.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the- these moments that where you do wanna quit, whether it's in training or in competition, for people who understand that and have experienced that and have overcome it, life becomes easier.
- 30:00 – 45:00
What is it like…
- RGRickson Gracie
And I always loved competing, uh, very competitive. And, uh, was just a, a great journey to become more confident in my style, more important in the family to represent. So it was just uh, uh, a bumpy road which have me create better strength, better mindset, better spiritual guidance.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is it like to have grown up in that environment and then move to America and just teach Americans, and teach people that are, like, hobbyists and just wanna try it and train every now and then? Is that, uh, is that satisfying? Or does it- does it frustrate you sometimes that people don't have the same level of commitment? Because jujitsu obviously is life to you. It's- it's- it's a very significant aspect of your being.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. Jujitsu, it was exposed to me as an art form, as something we... our business, our way to express ourselves. My father always with gi showing things in- in the academy. And my brothers and myself, I start to become like, "I wanna be a teacher too." So being an instructor, being a jujitsu representative was not only for fighting. The fighting actually was just the back, the- the... it's on the- on the- on the secondary level. You're not there to fight anybody. It's not there to challenge anybody. You're there to just teach. And if somebody say, "Yeah, but I believe box can..." Okay, let's fight. "Oh, but I believe I can- judo can..." So let's fight. So whatever style come up with the idea, capoeira, whatever style come up with the idea who could face a jujitsu fighter, so let's come prove ju- let's prove jujitsu is better, and let's keep teaching jujitsu. And in the teaching aspect, completely different than the representativity and the fighting aspect. Jujitsu has always been a soft art. We always can accept and- and- and- and- and create strength on the weaker people. Jujitsu is an art for the weaker. My father who- who develop a better jujitsu than the one he learns with my uncle, Carlos, he develop a better jujitsu because he could not do one pull-up and one push-up. He was weak. He was forbidden to do exercise up to 16 years old. He could not do anything, no ride bikes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why?
- RGRickson Gracie
Because he has verti- vertical.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RGRickson Gracie
He was very skinny, very nervous. And if he run a little bit, he pass out.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Wow.
- RGRickson Gracie
So he was very weak. So from 13 years old, when my- my- my uncle, Carlos, opened the first jujitsu academy on 1925 in Brazil, to 16 years old, he was sitting on the corner watching my uncle teach. He could not train. He was there just watching and memorizing all the lines, watching all the techniques. And then one day, a student arrived before my uncle Carlos arrive. And my father said, "Mister, if you want, I can put the gi and practice with you until my brother arrive." So they start to play a little bit. And when my uncle Carlos arrive at the school, the student said to, uh, to- to Carlos, uh, "Carlos, I like to keep training with Helio because he's so talent. I love to practice with him." So that way, my father start to engage on the practice of jujitsu. But a regular choke, which was taught with the choke like this, using the strength of the arms, he could not do. So he had to get together and use the chest, which represents 10 or 15 more times powerful, with more leverage and less effort. So we normally say Helio Gracie is to jujitsu as Einstein is to physics. He's a creator. He's an inventor. He start to adding leverage and angles for him to be able to do it, which transcends the- the- the- the physicality he learns. So, with that, my father start to adding techniques and- and angles. And actually, I believe the guard, the guard of jujitsu was developed not from Maeda, not from Carlos Gracie, but from Helio Gracie who could not have another option to fight. The only option he has is to fall on the bottom and- and fight. So he has excellent defensive guard. He has strikes and- and ability to hurt from the bottom, and- and the ability to cook the guy in slow burn until the guy defeat, get defeated. Either get tired or get choke or something. So my father develop a- a- a- a- a- a combat format from the bottom, which was not there until him show up in the- in the jujitsu scenario. So the- the- the techniques and the development we put in the- on the jujitsu makes our jujitsu be accessible for weaker persons. So the weaker, he feels good because he don't have to use power. Oh, just the angle here. So we empower the students. One time I start to help my brother, Rorion, to teach. I was about 12, 13 years old. Because at the same time I said to my dad, "Dad, I don't wanna s- go to school anymore." And he said, "Okay, you don't wanna go to school. I cannot force you to do that. But I... Don't ask me for money. I gonna give you house, I gonna give you food, but you make your own money." I said, "Okay, I gonna help Rorion to teach, and he can give me some money." And in my mind, I was set. So I was helping Rorion to teach, and then I asked my dad, I said, "Dad, what I should do to become the best teacher I can be?" And he said, "If you wanna be a good teacher, you learn the arm lock, and you teach a good arm lock and make sure the guy knows how to do it tight enough and perfect arm lock. If you wanna be an excellent teacher, you have to see what the students needs to learn." With that advice, he gave me a s- he gave me something which is not only the physicality of the sport, but also the psychology aspect. Because sometimes you see a guy who is lazy and- and- and just... so you have to wake him up. "So let's go. Uh, do this, respond." So increase your reflexes, increase the capacity for him to be connected.If you see the guy too aggressive, too tense, too nervous, you should, "Hey, man, relax. Breathe. Take your time. Do slow." So educate the guy to be able to control his emotions and his, his aggressiveness and become more peaceful. So anyone has a different par- particular way to learn better or to get a better information. Jiu-jitsu can favor everybody in different ways, no matter if you're aggressive, no matter if you're mean, or if you... So with this being said, I was there to teach jiu-jitsu. I was there to just help people in a way to make i- to empower them. And I also did in a different road to represent jiu-jitsu to fight anyone. So I was not getting in a camp to fight. If I have to fight, I just take my gi and go. I was always in shape. I was always practice. I was always training. But it was not exactly a preparation for a fight. I was feel like I have to be ready because if the guy called me to go to fight on the beach right now, I have to go. So be ready was part of the game, not being an athlete, but being a martial artist. So all those concepts diff- differ from today's attitude towards the practice and the training. And also, some people who are competitors, they cannot teach beginners or be nice with... because they just fight too hard and they have to focus too hard on the training. Either you stay on their boat, or he cannot go and help somebody else in a different atmosphere. For me, it was always, I can, I can fight the worst guys there is today. Tomorrow, I'm gonna be teaching some old lady or some guy, and I keep myself focused on the leverage, on the angles, on the details. So all this give me a sense of being a duo, not only a good teacher, but also a good fighter.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so amazing when you stop and think about the fact that your father was such a u- ha- had such a unique circumstance in terms of being small and also, you know, being there with, uh, Carlos when he was teaching those classes. But that the fact that he was small and that he learned leverage and learned to maximize these techniques, it became the most important aspect of jiu-jitsu. To this day, when I talk to people, I sa- I always say, like, "The best instructors, it seems like a lot of them are smaller people, 'cause those smaller people, they can't muscle their way out of these things."
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, sometimes when you get a really big strong guy, they can use too much physical strength. But the small guys, they don't have that option, so everything has to be technical. It has to be precise. It has to be perfect.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. The, there's no, there's no arguments against techniques and, and, and timing and, and connection. So the ideas of learning jiu-jitsu properly is, is for sure the right way. But some people, they strong and they try to compensate the, the lack of speed or movement with the strength. So they become, they create their own pattern, their own way to fight because they can use, they can afford to waste energy because they have it. My father couldn't. So sometimes they say, "Oh, I don't care too much about little details because I can make it up with this way I can like..." So they start using jiu-jitsu with their personal abilities, with their aggressiveness, with their... and becomes a good formula too, works properly because guy's just good enough to do it. But that's cannot be something we teach for anyone because if you don't have what he has, he cannot be executed. So we have to re- teaching jiu-jitsu in a level anyone can take it. And after that point, you can take what you learn and add your personal, your personal abilities and attributes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't you think though that even those big strong guys, if they learned everything perfectly, if they learned the right technique and the right way and almost ignored the fact that they were strong, they would have even more success?
- RGRickson Gracie
Oh, man. Def- definitely. Imagine Helio Gracie with 250 pounds.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RGRickson Gracie
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Exactly, right?
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah, you know? So...
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, you think of there's, uh, you know, one time I remember, um, when Krome was young, you and I, um, we were over at your house and you were showing me some fights from, uh, Coliseum.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
From the, the 2000 event. And we- you were breaking down how so many fighters leave so much space.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that this is all fundamentally wrong. And that if you, if you follow the correct principles of jiu-jitsu and if you see the, even these guys who are jiu-jitsu black belts-
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they left space.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
They left, they had all these errors that they shouldn't have had because they didn't concentrate on the details the way your father did.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. I agree 100% because today not only the jiu-jitsu becomes very popular, but the competitiveness aspect of jiu-jitsu creates based on rules and, and, a- and, and practice. A jiu-jitsu which not representing the control for the kill is a jiu-jitsu represents more strategy for winning a tournament by points, advantages. Of course, if the guy make a mistake, you can choke or submit. But the great objectivity of the fight today is not losing by points, is not expose yourself by losing by little. So the, the worries and the con- and the concerns about fighting become a little different than just fight for winning and keeping tight. Like, you know, there's no two sho- no two options. You have to just go for the kill and tighten up and take advantage of every spa- every different space is given to capitalize. So the idea of controlling your opponent with the objectivity to win-It's a little different than the objectivity of a jiu-jitsu who has create points or, or, or a system which in two or three minutes, the fight is gonna end and I'm gonna win. So why you're gonna bother? So you can see a strategy was not there in my time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, there's a lot of that you would see with wrestlers entering into these tournaments where they would figure out how to hold the guy down, take a guy down, hold the guy down, but they would never pass through a dominant position and they would never finish. They would never try to finish. That was not their objective. Their objective was just to score points.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
The, um... that's a…
- RGRickson Gracie
from the, from the guard position. I, I really like Kron's vale-tudo guard because he's aware of the situ-... he loves to be in a guard as he loves to be mounted, like myself. For me, I have no problems to be on the bottom in the guard or have to be mounted. For me, two are good, great positions for victory.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, um... that's a very good point because there is a transitionary period when fighters who are only competing in jiu-jitsu have to deal with those punches. And a lot of times, they are not comfortable at all being on their back.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
They, they'd like to get out of that position, and they would only like to be on top because, in that position, they can control the strikes better.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. And then you have to deal with a s- with a wrestler-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RGRickson Gracie
... who is impossible to take down, and you're spending all your energy trying to go instead pull him to the ground and, and kick his ass with pretty much simple attitude, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
When you see, uh, jiu-jitsu today, um, and you see that there's so much of it that, uh, does rely on points, do you long for the day... like, d- do you wish that they had no-limit jiu-jitsu matches that were submission only? Do you think that's a better way to do it?
- RGRickson Gracie
I mean, definitely, not only for jiu-jitsu but for MMA, if you wanna be a result, you have to take off the judge and the points to see who is the best guy out there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RGRickson Gracie
You know? And a tennis, and a tennis match can be quickly resolved if I win the three sets, but can be a five-hour f- dispute if every point we dispute like crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RGRickson Gracie
And that's gonna be the difference to see a half-hour game or a five-hour game. So why we don't have that kind of scenario in jiu-jitsu or in MMA? Because you wanna see somebody win at the end. And the situation, if I p- score on you 10 points and you end up mounted on me, I win because I have 10 points and you... but in reality, if you mount on me and you end the fight mounted, your chance for you to be the winner is bigger. Same thing than MMA. If I fight in MMA and I have... I win the first round because I punch once in the face. I win the se- second round because I punch you again in the face and nothing happen. And on the third round, you mount on me, I turn back, you choke me out. When I's about to tap, the time that the bell rings, the, the s- the, the judge stops the fight, the guy who wins the previous two rounds win the match. And that's not, for me, a, a realistic understanding of what is the fight means. For me, the value of the... who's winning the, the, the last round, if you already... if I have already the choke, I just need 10 more seconds to beat you and the fight is over. In, in terms of reality, this guy lost the fight. No way for him to win. And that's not happened. So the interpretation, the rules, the, the time, the... they're all kinda coming to, to promote entertainment, but not to give you the sense of who's the best guy out there.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is a problem, right? Where you're trying to figure out how to make something so it's palatable to people to watch as an entertainment-
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... vehicle, but it's also representative of, uh, a competitive martial art.
- RGRickson Gracie
I don't think it's a, it's a capacity for you to do, do both.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- RGRickson Gracie
I think right now the idea is entertainment, which is very relevant. People love it. Fighters make money. Everything goes well. I don't say nothing wrong about it, but it's not martial arts.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RGRickson Gracie
It's a game, entertainment, something which people...Like to siege for the blows, for the heart, for the violence, but it's not about who is the best guy out there.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a game that uses martial arts.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
I wonder if there's room for, uh ... well, it would have to be both. It would have to be no holds barred, and it would also have to be no time limits.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And some, I think f- I feel like someone could put something like that to- together, but it would... The problem is in, at the highest levels of the organizations, everybody wants to fight for the UFC or they wanna fight for Bellator. I mean, that's really what, what you want. If you want the, the biggest companies with the most experience, most, most, uh, eyes on you, it's ... I don't think they're gonna be willing to do that. They're not gonna be willing to have these no limit, no time limit, no rules fights. So if that's the case, you're not gonna get the best athletes, 'cause the best athletes are gonna get signed to the-
- RGRickson Gracie
Of course.
- JRJoe Rogan
... UFC and signed to Bellator.
- RGRickson Gracie
Of course. Yeah, like I said, the, the idea of entertainment, the idea of business is go way above the idea of legitimacy or, or, or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
To prove your point,…
- RGRickson Gracie
at the school and submitting everybody on the leg locks, knee locks. I always been very much, uh ... I really like f- leg locks with no doubts. And I felt like sometimes if I wanna cheat, if I wanna win fast, I go for the leg lock because the guy will tap quicker. I was feeling like almost like, oh, leg locks is cheating because it's too easy. Without this, the leg locks understanding and pressure are never been exposed too much to others and, and s- now like you said, after the, this kind of group start to training and stuff, so they really become more effective in knee locks, leg locks and that's g- a big game change if you don't know how to escape. But again, if you get two guys are expert, the training partners, you're not gonna see that many leg locks. You're gonna see a lot of preparations and stuff, but the leg locks you wi- will get, the surprising ones who don't know the ability to escape, because if you know what I want, as you start to approach, I start to escaping.My, my movements has to be coordinate to anticipate the, the final move. If you get me in a checkmate, it's over. So with the legs are, are two possibilities for you to get the, the situation and make it happen. And, uh, and it's very dangerous if you're not aware. But as you start to get used to give foot locks and get ... You become like a part, like giving chokes and taking chokes. So that's becomes normal and it's just a new way, a new option for, for the submission.
- JRJoe Rogan
To prove your point, Craig Jones, who's one of the Danaher guys, said that they almost never tap each other with leg locks.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, and k- he goes, "They don't even go for it."
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because everybody knows the positions and knows the defense.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. So they anticipate the defense. It becomes like ... It's just one more pe- pe- piece on the puzzle, you know, and it's very well done, and it's very, very dangerous. And if you're not aware, you can get a quick defeat. Because especially on the knee locks, if you try to resist, pop your ligaments, and instead you feel pain. So it's very dangerous.
- JRJoe Rogan
When the early days, uh ... In the early days of jujitsu tournaments, if someone tried to win by leg lock, the crowd would go crazy and boo.
- RGRickson Gracie
Mm, not really. It's not ... You're not common. Was not common, but, you know, it happened.
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe not in the early days, maybe after the early days. But there was a, a time in jujitsu tournaments, for sure if someone would try to tap someone with a leg lock or a knee bar. Do you think that was because of the concern with, uh, injury?
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. The idea of bec- ... The idea of knee f- ... The foot lock, even though I'm grabbing your foot and try to attack the joint of the foot, depending how I use my hips and my legs, I can really force your knee. So sometimes, the, the, the, the, the criticism was, "Oh, the guy went to my foot, but he put pressure on my knee and pop my knee instead." So he's still holding the foot, but with the intention to, to hurt your knee. And those kind of inverse positions was forbidden for a long time in jujitsu. So when somebody gets your foot, the referee will s- ... He will see if your intention is to hurt his knee and then immediately stop the fight, and, and, and give you penalties and stuff. But now, it's legal. Now they open for the f- ... And people gonna start to get improving in defenses, improving in situations, to don't let yourself get caught. It's just like a matter of understanding the techniques and start to practice accordingly, too. And it gonna become just another variant of the submission.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think it just has to be people have to be more cautious in training and teaching it, especially to, to new people?
- RGRickson Gracie
Definitely. Because, like I said, this works on the ligaments. If I force my finger this way, I will feel pain before I, I hurt. If I force this way, will pop, and then I will feel pain. So you hurts nothing, and then pop.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RGRickson Gracie
So the knee has lega- lateral ligaments which prevents from moving laterally. If I resist, I feel nothing until it pops. It's not gonna feel pain different than a straight knee bar.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then you need surgery.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's, uh ... It's a big issue with, uh, leg lock specialists. M- a giant percentage of them wind up having, uh, knee surgery.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a difficult thing to learn when you're, you know ... unless you're with really good training partners, and everyone's cautious, and y- you do it correctly. But it can be done.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes, it can be done.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, tell me about your book. Your, your book is out today.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, it's called Breathe. What was, what was the ... What was the motivation to write this book?
- RGRickson Gracie
First of all, the motivation was money. I have a good proposal from the, the publishing house, and I felt like, especially on those days it's hard to make money, I felt like it was a good option. And then the second, the second motivation, the reason I did was the fact ... I've been passing for so many experience, you know. And, uh, those experience make me grow as a man, make me feel like capable to seek for happiness in a much more proper way, and make sure also the development of my warrior tools, not only physical, technical, but also the mindset, the emotional, and also the spiritual aspect of acceptance, shows I- I've been through a lot, and, uh, and give my exposure of my life of things I did to resolve the matters. So it's a very special ... I mean, I hope you like it, because if you don't like it, I don't have another life to tell you. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RGRickson Gracie
But the tale of my life is basically on, you know, my experience, my life in Rio, which is very, very unpredictable, very wild, my relationship with my father, my brothers, my growing up as a jujitsu practitioner, my, my times of parties in Brazil, and, uh, you know. So it was all ... My life, which I felt like even my mistakes I used to become a better person. So it was a, a process of ... a evolutionary process which I'm very proud of it, because today, even though I'm physically destroyed, like my back is bad, I have so many injuries, I feel like I'm still using jujitsu in a very proper way, through breathing, through visualization, through spiritual guidance. And, and I, I take all the information I have as a fighter to live my life, and know how it's ... how important it is to, to live my life under those guidance, under those things I really believe and make a difference. And this exposes my life in a way to give people, through my experience, the options or the ideas to really may reinvent themselves and become better.
- JRJoe Rogan
Last time I saw you, you were talking to me about your back. So your back is still bothering you?
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah, my back is going downhill since, since last time I saw you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- 1:15:00 – 1:30:00
And you just figured…
- RGRickson Gracie
- JRJoe Rogan
And you just figured that out on your own?
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah, I just figured it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause I remember that, um, in choke, that you had that rubber band around your head. You, you're working on your neck muscles, and that's very similar to a thing that I use now that they sell called the iron neck.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. Because, you know, when you use the, the, the, the, the strengthening with elastics, you have is... resistance for you to do throws-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RGRickson Gracie
... you know, because if it's static. But when it's pulling up, you have to do the energy of pulling and moving your hip connected to not losing the momentum. So with the elastics, you have a good ch- a good training for throws-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RGRickson Gracie
... good training for base, good training for movement, for balance, for neck strength, for shoulder strength. So it's a lot of things coming from the bottom and stretch up with the elastics, make a continuous energy from the func- from the functional aspect. So I really like the exercise with elastics because give me a complete idea and also flexibility and so on.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you figured all this out on your own?
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah, I'm a lucky-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RGRickson Gracie
... smart guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're a lucky smart guy, yeah. But it's uh, it's amazing how many people use them now, the strikers, judo guys-
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... all kinds of athletes that use it for functional training.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. And breathing too. I see a lot of people, like tennis players using breathing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RGRickson Gracie
So the, the, the idea of using breathing functionally makes all the difference because if you don't know how to breathing, you can be an athlete, but you're gonna get quite tired with the, the, the f- the blood, th- not enough blood, oxygen in your blood in your brain, so you start to make poor decisions and stuff. When you know how to hyperventilate, you change the game of your performance. I increased maybe 40% after learning how to breathe.
- JRJoe Rogan
40%.
- RGRickson Gracie
40% solid improvement of how to recover, how to last longer, how to everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's interesting. You said that, uh, Stylebender, the UFC middleweight champion, has recently started incorporating breath work, and he said it's made a tremendous difference.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he said, "I will never gas out in a fight again-"
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because now I, I understand how to control my breath."
- RGRickson Gracie
Yeah, not only gas out, you, you become, you become much more resilient for fighting, but your brain becomes clear because when you start to get tired, you don't, you don't push oxygen to your brain, so you become dummy and making poor decisions, so function in every aspect of your life.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that's why you decided to title the book Breathe.
- RGRickson Gracie
Yes. The bre- the breathe was maybe the, the big change in my life was when I learned how to breathe, I start to bring in more spiritual possibilities, more mental possibilities. Because what is interesting about the, the, the breathing aspect is the brain and the, and the heart are the only organs who can give and receive information. The other organs, liver, kidney, they don't... cannot do that. But when you get upset with something mentally, you bring information to yourself immediately. Your brain's responding. Your heart, too. When you get depressed, immediately you feel in your heart. And your heart show you, you sad, show you... it's immediately connection. And what is amazing about that is the lung is the practical aspect within you who are able to control or help your he- your brain, and also help your heart. So through the proper breathing, you can control your heartbeats. Through the proper breathing, you can control your mindset and get calmer, control your panic, control your courage, control everything you need in the mental aspect, and also spiritual, hope, faith, visualizations. So all the elements in your brain, all the elements in your heart can be much better guided, much better helped through the lungs. If you don't know how to involve your lungs in your brin- in your breathing, you, you, you're not able to...... to, to favor your h- your brain and your heart the way it's supposed to be.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's kind of amazing that everybody breathes, but a relatively small percentage of people know how to breathe correctly.
- 1:30:00 – 1:30:27
So how do you…
- RGRickson Gracie
more sharpness in your mind, more reflexes, more... So the ability for you to become a fighter is not there. But the ability for you to learn yours- about yourself and know everything you can do in case of eventual situation will be there for you for the rest of your life.
- JRJoe Rogan
So how do you have this structured? Do you have it structured so that a person learns with another person so that you, like, you get together with a friend and you go over the, the program together?
Episode duration: 2:01:40
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