JRE MMA Show #114 with Rickson Gracie

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Rickson Gracie 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) Thanks for being here, sir. Always good to see you.

Rickson Gracie 0:14 It's always my pleasure, brother.

Joe Rogan 0:15 (laughs) Always good to see you. And, uh, it was good to talk to you, uh, before the podcast. We were talking about how you go into the cold plunge with a snorkel.

Rickson Gracie 0:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:25 Tell me about that.

Rickson Gracie 0:27 Yes. The, the cold water shower, the ice water, has always been very helpful for me in terms of controlling emotions and feel peace, peaceful in hell.

Joe Rogan 0:39 Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 0:40 So I was doing only ice bath, but I always put a snorkel and put my head under the water because if you keep your head off the water, it becomes very physical, very discomfortable, but doesn't hit the emotional aspect. You don't feel like you're gonna die because you don't feel the fear on your face, the discomfortable in your ears and your head which brings a different dimension of, of terrifying feelings. So I was putting the snorkel and getting under the water and breathing (breathes deeply) . When I achieved the calmness in my heart and lungs, I was ready to, to leave the water. I don't like to stay there for 10, 15 minutes. I stay there for one, two, three minutes at the most until I feel very peaceful. And because for me, it was more like f- spiritual than actually physical. I don't that, I don't, I'm not there to treat microtraumas or something. It was more to give me the sense of ready to die any point and feel like if you stay too long under the water, you're gonna die, so if you have, you have to be peaceful and the same time aware and, and develop courage, develop calmness, develop spiritual surrender. For me, it's all everything I need to perform well.

Joe Rogan 2:06 And so you, y- y- you started doing cold water therapy a long time ago. I mean, it was obviously, it was in the movie Choke when you went into that frozen river.

Rickson Gracie 2:15 Yes.

Joe Rogan 2:16 When did you start doing that?

Rickson Gracie 2:19 Soon I felt I, I have to develop some kind of terrifying experience to make my spiritual mind become comfortable. So big wave surf is always something which terrifying me, and I was exposing myself to the ocean to understand the emotion of the ocean and, and be comfortable in this kind of discomfortable situation. Also, cold water and, and, and other things I, I always do.

Joe Rogan 2:48 And this was just always a part of y- developing yourself for fighting, developing yourself just for overall life?

Rickson Gracie 2:57 My, my life is a very unique one because since I start to understand my, my status of representing the family through jiu-jitsu, I put myself against the unknown, which is no weight division, no time limits, no rules, no size. So all those unpredictable aspects give me something which is different than just a sport like lifestyle. I was living more the life of a guy who is ready to anything anytime. So that kind of preparation requires not only the, the mental and the t- the technical preparation, but also the spiritual preparation. And sometimes, spiritually speaking, you have to understand how to accept things, how to surrender things, and, and be above their physicality or actually the fear of dying.

Joe Rogan 3:56 And did you develop these concepts on your own? Did you, did you recognize that you needed to strengthen these aspects of your mind and your body as you were going through this journey?

Rickson Gracie 4:06 Yes. Yes, definitely, because if you're gonna fight somebody, you don't know who it is, what technique he, h- h- he knows, what size he has, when he's gonna fight you, so it's all unpredictable. It's always unknown. And you have to be spiritually strong to accept the unknown comfortably. So my life was preparing myself for something I could not even expect what it is, is just be ready for anything. And that's required for me start

Rickson Gracie 4:36 to bringing, uh, scenarios and situations for me to become comfortable in these kind of situations totally unpredictables. So I like to use nature as a friend of... so the ocean, the rivers, the cold. I like to use the, the experience of breathing. When I was young with 12 years old, I was practicing with adults at the academy. So they take care of me, they play with me. And one blue belt strong guy get me in a headlock, which normally you have defense for it. But because I was kid, I was tired, and the guy was strong, I could not escape, and I tap. And I get so upset with the tapping because I knew it was not something, uh, I should do, technically speaking. So I went home. I stretch myself on a, on a, on a edge of a carpet and ask my brother host to roll me up in the carpet in 110 degrees humid B- Rio de Janeiro. And I was stressed, I mean, suffocated for a little while because I told him, "Just let me get out of here in 10 minutes." So the first and second minute was terrifying. I was hot. I could not feel the air. And I start to putting my mind on the ocean breeze, flying with seagulls, and get breeze on my face, and start to be calm. After 10 minutes, my brother unfold me. I was like a burrito.... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:06 (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 6:07 And, uh, and then I, I, I passed that experience. Some- somehow I passed through. In the same year, I did three more times. Until the point, I was getting rolled on the carpet, feeling nothing, stay waiting the time, and, and leave the carpet. So I was fixing myself emotionally with the ways I could feel like w- was the options I have, how I can suffocate myself and not die. So I was p- putting myself in some kinda obstacles just to feel comfortable. And after that, I never felt the panic, and I felt fighting anymore.

Joe Rogan 6:44 And a lot of that panic can be r- resolved with w- another thing that you, uh, specialize in that ... which is breathing exercises.

Rickson Gracie 6:54 I feel like the big, the big difference I did on myself to be able to cap- capture more, more experience emotionally, and also spiritually, and also physically was breathing. The learning of breathing for me was the huge asset. Because up to that point, I was an athlete, I was training forever. I was running. I was doing everything I could do, but never with the feeling of full potential. When I start to learning how to f- really function in the breathing system, I start to understand. Because you can spend seven days without food. You can spend three days without water, but five minutes without breathing, you dead. So learning how to function in proper your breathing is not something you're gonna learn when you're born. 'Cause when you're born, you get slap on your butt, (gasps) and then you alive and well to, to follow your life. But it's much more than just (breathes) . It's the diaphragmatic breathing, which improves. Like, if I breathe wrong (breathes) . If I breathe right (breathes) . Wrong (breathes) . Right.

Joe Rogan 8:21 Short br- short breathing.

Rickson Gracie 8:22 Yeah. Because it's just on the top of your lungs.

Joe Rogan 8:24 Right.

Rickson Gracie 8:25 When you use the diaphragmatic breathing, you able to bring the air to the lower part, to the back part of your lungs, which triples the amount of air. So when you expert in moving your diaphragmatic breathing, use your diaphragagment- diaphragm effectively. You hyperventilate in a way, you may get exhausted physically, but your brain is still sharp enough to, to get the, the intelligence, the sharpness, the, the, the l- enlightenment you need to ... even when you f- f- f- f- f- like, fading away in muscle speaking, your brain is still cool and, and, and functioning. Because normally when you start to get tired, you start to getting fade in your brain and you start to make poor decisions. You become a little stupid and ... because there's no e- enough blood for everything. But if you know how to hyperventilate, you become much better in terms of absorbing, getting, fixing your physical, understand your m- mental, and be able also to use the, the spiritual.

Joe Rogan 9:28 And when did you learn this stuff?

Rickson Gracie 9:30 Was just, uh, uh, a time developed to my passion, which was representing the family, representing the jiu-jitsu. And I have no instructors, you know, no mentors in terms ... Orlando Kani was my mentor in breathing, which I'm v- grateful for life. And after his experience, I become effective and know how to breathe, and meditate, and move, and become much more connected with my spiritual elements.

Joe Rogan 9:59 What was Orlando's specialty? What did he do?

Rickson Gracie 10:01 He was a Army pentathlon champion in 1965.

Joe Rogan 10:06 Oh. Okay.

Rickson Gracie 10:06 He was yoga instructor, and he start to develop the Bioginastica, which was-

Joe Rogan 10:11 Mm.

Rickson Gracie 10:11 ... a element of combining movements like an eagle (breathes) . Not like a yoga, which postures and breathing. Was also moves and breathe, and sometimes you fast, sometimes you, you calm, sometimes you peaceful, sometimes you explosive, sometimes you recruiting full power and keeping for longer. Different practice to give you the sense of incorporating breathing in your functional life, not exactly stop everything, be in a posture, and breathe. But fighting and breathe, s- uh, making love and breathe, and, and meditate and breathe, sleeping, how to breathe to get a full relax quick. So all the functional aspects to use breathing in your favor.

Joe Rogan 10:59 And so he was a yoga instructor and this, uh ... do you ... you call it Ginastica Natural? Is that what it's called?

Rickson Gracie 11:05 Ginastica Natural was ... he di- he developed, but he lost the rights to use that name.

Joe Rogan 11:11 Okay.

Rickson Gracie 11:12 His name now is Bioginastica.

Joe Rogan 11:14 Bioginastica.

Rickson Gracie 11:15 He is the same master who teach this Ginastica Natural, but the guy steal the, the name from him.

Joe Rogan 11:22 Oh.

Rickson Gracie 11:23 So now he use Bioginastica.

Joe Rogan 11:25 It's a dirty world out there.

Rickson Gracie 11:26 Yes, very dirty.

Joe Rogan 11:27 (laughs) So ... but he taught you the yoga or the ... with the ... it's, it's more of a movement-based system as oppor-

Rickson Gracie 11:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 11:35 But you do a lot of traditional yoga moves as well, right?

Rickson Gracie 11:39 Not exactly. My mother taught me ... I mean, she took me to that yoga classes, and I didn't like much because the postures, the suffering, the flexibility was just there for me to understand my discomfortable. It doesn't give me too much a good experience, so I didn't like it and stop.

Joe Rogan 11:58 Didn't give you a good experience? How so?

Rickson Gracie 12:00 Because y- ... uh, after the experience with Orlando, I felt like everything else was not good. Because yoga is a great practice. Don't misunderstand me. I ... but for me-I expect something more dynamic.

Joe Rogan 12:17 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 12:17 I expect something more like... Actually teach me how to apply breathing, to functioning, not exactly how to breathe to become more flexible, or how to breathe to resist the spiritual pain. Yoga put you in a position and e- expect you to work with your mind. The j- the biogynastica put you in a situation where you have to jump. So how is the per- proper breathing for you to jump? How is the proper breathing for you to relax? How is the proper breathing for you to fight? How is proper breathing for you to swim, to surf? In every aspect of ... In every sport, we have always different aspects of breathing. You see boxers, choo, choo, choo, choo. You see tennis players, too, too, too, because they exhale when they breathe. So they have different ways to breathe. I developed, in a very high level, breathings for fighting and for surfing, which are things I love to do. But if I was soccer player, I will have a different approach for breathing. If I was, uh, gymnastics, whatever activity you have, it's gonna be always a breathing who fits properly.

Joe Rogan 13:28 Did other members of the family adopt these practices with you?

Rickson Gracie 13:32 No, not, not really. The-

Joe Rogan 13:34 But that seems like it would make sense if they did that. If I was looking at the guy who represented the family, who was the, the best fighter in the family-

Rickson Gracie 13:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:43 ... I would ab- assume that other people would follow whatever he's doing.

Rickson Gracie 13:47 Yes, supposed to be, but sometimes this either ego or something ... My, my son, Kron, he does very well. He gets advantage of knowing how to breathe properly, and he's showing how comfortable he is when he's doing things. But other f- members of the family, they don't put too much attention on breathing, and it's bad for them, you know? What I can say?

Joe Rogan 14:08 It's just strange to me, uh, because, um, people respect you so highly and respect your accomplishments in jiu-itju so highly. I would imagine that they would wanna emulate all the aspects of, uh, of a, uh, physical culture that got you to where you, where you became.

Rickson Gracie 14:24 Yes. But, uh, my, my s- my way to p- to, to see jiu-itju is always been very clear to me, but always demand from me because, like I said, I, I, I was not sure about anything, what's the enemy, what's the size. So it requires from me a, a, a, a larger two boxes for a, for a warrior.

Joe Rogan 14:50 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 14:50 Not only the physicality, not only the training, the, the, the, the co- the courage and the, and the es- and the ability to do it, but also how to control my emotions, how to be vis- visualizing what I want, all the aspects of the rational visualization and, and mindset. And also, my spiritual side, because if you f- gonna fight you don't know who, you have to learn how to not fear death. You have to learn how to have hope. You have to learn how to be patience, because different than passivity, patience is a quality. The lion stays behind the bush waiting for the zebra get close, patiently waiting for the kill. He's not passive. He's just patient. So for a, for a guy who gonna fight somebody with no, no weight division, no time limits, no rules, patience, hope, faith, visualization, those, uh, very important elements for a spiritual warrior, for a warrior who's in a situation has to improvise, different than same weight division, five minutes rounds, the rules are there, the set. So it's a completely different element of spirituality, in terms of acceptance, in terms of being engaged in something, you can die. I was expecting the best, but I was accepting the fact I could die trying, and quitting for me was not an option. So my life was being very much mold under that kinda pressure, which I have to make comfortable. So that situation put me in a s- in a f- facing my, my monsters in a very early age, and somehow, I have to deal with the monsters, you know, from breathing, from accepting death, from, from be able to perform under pressure, and things like that. And I have to p- you know, pick sometimes a cold bathe, sometimes going in a, in a heavy ocean, sometimes... Just to prove myself I could deal with nature and I could flow with ... In a various ugly scenarios and, and, um, and perform well because emotionally, I was in control. Spiritually, I was able to give the ... Give my acceptance and my spirituality.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Where did you learn, uh, techniques for visualization?

Rickson Gracie 17:20 I think visualization is part of the process. Even before I know what it is, because I always been very competitive, because I always been very, very focused on what I want, that focus, that idea of winning, competing, what, what I have to l- ... So always keep me in a sense where the visualization put me in a sense I could win a fight in 10 seconds. I could win a fight in one minute. I could have a hard fight and win by points. I couldn't get a, a lose. I couldn't get a knockout. So I visualize everything. And even though I could get punch in the face and pass and, and, and get knocked down, I still visuali- visualizing I was able to s- survive in the garden, handle the storm, and able to get i- smart again and win the fi- So all the process, a hard fight, a easy fight, a impossible fight, and even death-It's part of a good visualization because you have all the scenarios in your mind. You review all them, you kinda pretty much comfortable with all the scenarios, even death.

Joe Rogan 18:28 So when it's, it's fascinating to me that you... when you started, there really was no, uh... other than your father's fights and Carlson Gracie and some other people who had fights before you-

Rickson Gracie 18:40 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:41 ... there was no history of it the way there is today. So it was really... like, the people that don't know, they think of MMA, they think of, uh, the UFC, and they think it's always been like this, or maybe they'll go back to the first UFCs. They, they don't really understand that for decades, you and your family were having these no rules fights, and they were having them in front of large audiences, and they're w- were facing all kinds of different styles, and there's no time limit. And it's a completely different experience.

Rickson Gracie 19:15 Yes, completely different. Because the, the, the fight has a different purpose. It was not about the event. It's not about the entertainment. It's not about the, the money. It was about representing, it was a, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, a, a, um, a confrontation of styles or not exactly... people don't prepare themselves in all aspects of fighting. People represents karate or judo or boxing or wrestling. So the idea of putting jiu-jitsu in the number one spot was the comprom-... was the commitment we have, is if you put in the confrontation, we believe in jiu-jitsu to 200%. So that idea was the, the focus point for the whole preparation and the whole concept of making strategies and... because we're not expecting fighting another jiu-jitsu fighter. We're expecting to represent with jiu-jitsu against boxing, against wrestling, against all the styles.

Joe Rogan 20:16 What was the... how old were you when you had your first match like that?

Rickson Gracie 20:20 My first professional was 19.

Joe Rogan 20:22 19.

Rickson Gracie 20:22 Fight King Zulu-

Joe Rogan 20:24 Oh.

Rickson Gracie 20:25 ... with 120 fights and four draws only, 120 victories.

Joe Rogan 20:30 He was a big guy too.

Rickson Gracie 20:31 Yeah, about 210, 220. And about, uh, yeah, he was a big guy.

Joe Rogan 20:38 How much do you weigh at the time?

Rickson Gracie 20:39 174.

Joe Rogan 20:41 Those, uh, matches are still available online. People can watch them.

Rickson Gracie 20:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:45 It's pretty cool.

Rickson Gracie 20:46 I think so, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:48 Is it wild looking back at 19-year-old you fighting Zulu?

Rickson Gracie 20:52 Was a, maybe the biggest experience in my life because, at this point, I felt like I was good, I was able to, to fight well, but I didn't have the experience. So and then one day, I get home, I saw my father talking with his, uh, um, h-... Zulu's manager in Brasilia, the capital. And the, and the guy tried to bring, to invite my... somebody's... of my father team to fight Zulu. And my father was saying, "No, I don't have nobody. We don't fight Vale Tudo for so long, and nobody's training for." And I s-... I get the idea, I said, "Hey, dad, put me in, put me in, put me in." So I immediately asked him to... and he looked at me, and he mentioned to the, to the Waldemar Santana, said, "Yes, but I have my son here, 19 years old, he wanna try." And the guy said, "No, Mr.... Master Gracie, this is... this is not a fight for him to try. The guy is very tough," and this and that. As the guy tried to pull my father off the deal, my father becomes more excited to the... "No, but I think he gonna go handle the challenge," this and that. So he's become excited with the, the situation. So and then we set up the fight. One month later, I was there to fight. And, uh, we start the fight. And, uh, he has a trade, trade, uh, like a, uh, one move he does, which grab you with the hands between your legs and lift you up, and throw you over the... on your back on the floor. And as he approached that, I moved back, block his f-... his shoulders and hit him with the knee right on his face. It was the best knee I could possibly give in somebody. And I expect him to just... I expect to win the fight in right that... in that moment. But he just shook. H- h- he stood up, lift his head, shook, sp- he spit a tooth-

Joe Rogan 22:41 (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 22:42 ... and start back ready again to go, you know? And then I felt like it was really serious, and I... the thing was much serious than I expect. And for the next 10 minutes, because it was 10 minutes rounds, for the, for the f-... end of the round, we just engage and fall on the ring and come back in and back and out, and a lot of, a lot of commotion, a lot of strength. And in the end of the round, I kinda crawl into the corner, and I said to my dad, "Dad, I quit. I don't... I cannot go anymore. I'm tired." And my dad not even listened to me. He said, "He's tired than you. He's worse. Now we're gonna kick his ass," do this and that. I said, "Dad, I'm serious, man. I'm dead. I cannot go." And then my brother holds... throw me a bucket of ice and water in my head. I go, "Ah, huh." And then bang, the re-... the bell rings, and I push in again. And like my dad said, I could beat the guy in three minutes because he was already tired, wasted too. So when I grab his back, he could not escape, and I put him to sleep. And, uh, and then I confirmed my worst enemy was in my mind, was the... my enemy was in my brain, tell me I have to quit, I have to... so I decide in that day never hurt my, my mind, tell bad things to me anymore. So either I'm gonna die or I don't go. But if I go, I cannot say, "Oh, I think I had enough. I think it's time to..." So this was the worst enemy I could have. And from that day on, I decide to either go to putting everything on it or don't go at all.So it was easier for me because I would start to, to, to deal with one enemy only, not two enemies, the- my mind and my opponent.

Joe Rogan 24:30 It's probably the most common thing that happens to fighters, is they, they lose faith in themselves or they, they start to look for a way out.

Rickson Gracie 24:39 Yes. That's pretty much, uh, because you don't see the other side. You see yourself and you see you tired, you see with problems, you start to see the negative aspects of you. And you're not putting yourself like, "The guy has the same problems. He has the same idea, so you have to keep going here as everything is normal." And it's hard to, to people relate to that, you know. When you start getting the problems, you start to see yourself bigger than the other ones, you know, more problems and more s-... And that's not gonna be the, the right way to resolve the matter.

Joe Rogan 25:12 It's interesting that you figured out how to handle these things, uh, on your own too, because this is, uh, it's an area that fighters seek psychological help with now. They hire psychologists, and they, they get hypnotized, and they do all these different things to try to figure out how to stop that negative conversation in the mind, how to stop those negative voices, and how to not give in to that weakness that wants you to quit.

Rickson Gracie 25:37 Yes. This power, we all have within, but some people don't even go for that and they, they seek for different people to help them, which is good too. But once you s-... You become more intuitive, when you become more enlightened with your own potential, you're able to resolve all the matters yourself, you know, because it's all about your mindset. It's how you think and how you believe and what you ready for and what you prepare for and how you're able to, to accept and surrender everything around you.

Joe Rogan 26:12 And the- these moments that where you do wanna quit, whether it's in training or in competition, for people who understand that and have experienced that and have overcome it, life becomes easier.

Rickson Gracie 26:26 Yes. I think, you know, martial arts when it's practiced with, with a complete idea is a metaphor for life. You know, you become a good martial artist, you become a good person. You go- you're gonna become a happy person because you wanna be able to, to conquer your, your happiness outside of the mat.

Joe Rogan 26:46 And to deal with your demons.

Rickson Gracie 26:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 26:49 And d- some people never fight those demons. They never... So when then something happens to them in life, some adversity comes up, they're not accustomed to handling it.

Rickson Gracie 26:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 26:59 And we're seeing a lot of that now with this, uh, pandemic. We're seeing a lot of people freaking out because they've never really experienced any true adversity in their life.

Rickson Gracie 27:09 Yes. No, is not only for that, but because they don't ever thought about how to resolve those problems, you know. They just thinking, "The problem is there. What I gonna do?" But they don't thinking about, "How I can control the situation? How I can be on top of this? How I can, you know, just defend myself from those demons?" And, and, and if you don't see the perspective of, " How I can resolve my problems?" you allow yourself to, uh, to, to put your problems in somebody else ha- hands to resolve for you. And it's all about perspective. It's all about focus.

Joe Rogan 27:47 You've had a really extraordinary life, and, um, it's, uh, it's so unusual. Y- your, your position, like, what, what happened to you as a young man having your father, Helio Gracie, who's one of the most important people in the history of martial arts, to be raised by, um, a man like that, and to be raised in the Gracie family, the most important family in the history of martial arts, in my opinion, is pretty incredible, if you thi-... Do, does, do you s- s- sp- stop sometimes to think about how unusual and how fortunate for, for your life it was to be in that position?

Rickson Gracie 28:25 Was like, uh, it's always been special and different. Being a Gracie, since I'm understand myself, because I get, I get gi before I get diapers.

Joe Rogan 28:36 (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 28:37 So, I was a str-... I was a, a special, you know, person and a special family. And my f- my father's friends say, "Oh, you're gonna be a fighter too. You're gonna be a champion too." So you become a Gracie even before you understand what it is. And you use kimonos, you play on the garden and wrestle everybody and play and able to throw, be able to fall, able to choke. So you start to get in that environment where fighting is normal, is recreational. You get in the environment where being a Gracie, you eat well, you be in a diet from day one. You don't drink Coca-Colas. You don't take, you know, chocolates, ice creams. It's just about healthy stuff, carrot juices and, and, and salads and soups and this. So I've been created to become somebody special. And when you become knowledgeable about being Gracie, you start to putting yourself in a, in a, in a, in a, in a line of, you know, "One day I gonna be the fighter. One day I gonna be the representative." So all my life, I was training hard with my brothers, seeking to become better than them, to get their spot or to representing the family. And I was noticed I was talent f-... In a very early age. And I always loved competing, uh, very competitive. And, uh, was just a, a great journey to become more confident in my style, more important in the family to represent. So it was just uh, uh, a bumpy road which have me create better strength, better mindset, better spiritual guidance.

Joe Rogan 30:25 What is it like to have grown up in that environment and then move to America and just teach Americans, and teach people that are, like, hobbyists and just wanna try it and train every now and then? Is that, uh, is that satisfying? Or does it- does it frustrate you sometimes that people don't have the same level of commitment? Because jujitsu obviously is life to you. It's- it's- it's a very significant aspect of your being.

Rickson Gracie 30:51 Yes. Jujitsu, it was exposed to me as an art form, as something we... our business, our way to express ourselves. My father always with gi showing things in- in the academy. And my brothers and myself, I start to become like, "I wanna be a teacher too." So being an instructor, being a jujitsu representative was not only for fighting. The fighting actually was just the back, the- the... it's on the- on the- on the secondary level. You're not there to fight anybody. It's not there to challenge anybody. You're there to just teach. And if somebody say, "Yeah, but I believe box can..." Okay, let's fight. "Oh, but I believe I can- judo can..." So let's fight. So whatever style come up with the idea, capoeira, whatever style come up with the idea who could face a jujitsu fighter, so let's come prove ju- let's prove jujitsu is better, and let's keep teaching jujitsu. And in the teaching aspect, completely different than the representativity and the fighting aspect. Jujitsu has always been a soft art. We always can accept and- and- and- and- and create strength on the weaker people. Jujitsu is an art for the weaker. My father who- who develop a better jujitsu than the one he learns with my uncle, Carlos, he develop a better jujitsu because he could not do one pull-up and one push-up. He was weak. He was forbidden to do exercise up to 16 years old. He could not do anything, no ride bikes.

Joe Rogan 32:30 Why?

Rickson Gracie 32:31 Because he has verti- vertical.

Joe Rogan 32:33 Oh.

Rickson Gracie 32:33 He was very skinny, very nervous. And if he run a little bit, he pass out.

Joe Rogan 32:38 (laughs) Wow.

Rickson Gracie 32:38 So he was very weak. So from 13 years old, when my- my- my uncle, Carlos, opened the first jujitsu academy on 1925 in Brazil, to 16 years old, he was sitting on the corner watching my uncle teach. He could not train. He was there just watching and memorizing all the lines, watching all the techniques. And then one day, a student arrived before my uncle Carlos arrive. And my father said, "Mister, if you want, I can put the gi and practice with you until my brother arrive." So they start to play a little bit. And when my uncle Carlos arrive at the school, the student said to, uh, to- to Carlos, uh, "Carlos, I like to keep training with Helio because he's so talent. I love to practice with him." So that way, my father start to engage on the practice of jujitsu. But a regular choke, which was taught with the choke like this, using the strength of the arms, he could not do. So he had to get together and use the chest, which represents 10 or 15 more times powerful, with more leverage and less effort. So we normally say Helio Gracie is to jujitsu as Einstein is to physics. He's a creator. He's an inventor. He start to adding leverage and angles for him to be able to do it, which transcends the- the- the- the physicality he learns. So, with that, my father start to adding techniques and- and angles. And actually, I believe the guard, the guard of jujitsu was developed not from Maeda, not from Carlos Gracie, but from Helio Gracie who could not have another option to fight. The only option he has is to fall on the bottom and- and fight. So he has excellent defensive guard. He has strikes and- and ability to hurt from the bottom, and- and the ability to cook the guy in slow burn until the guy defeat, get defeated. Either get tired or get choke or something. So my father develop a- a- a- a- a- a combat format from the bottom, which was not there until him show up in the- in the jujitsu scenario. So the- the- the techniques and the development we put in the- on the jujitsu makes our jujitsu be accessible for weaker persons. So the weaker, he feels good because he don't have to use power. Oh, just the angle here. So we empower the students. One time I start to help my brother, Rorion, to teach. I was about 12, 13 years old. Because at the same time I said to my dad, "Dad, I don't wanna s- go to school anymore." And he said, "Okay, you don't wanna go to school. I cannot force you to do that. But I... Don't ask me for money. I gonna give you house, I gonna give you food, but you make your own money." I said, "Okay, I gonna help Rorion to teach, and he can give me some money." And in my mind, I was set. So I was helping Rorion to teach, and then I asked my dad, I said, "Dad, what I should do to become the best teacher I can be?" And he said, "If you wanna be a good teacher, you learn the arm lock, and you teach a good arm lock and make sure the guy knows how to do it tight enough and perfect arm lock. If you wanna be an excellent teacher, you have to see what the students needs to learn." With that advice, he gave me a s- he gave me something which is not only the physicality of the sport, but also the psychology aspect. Because sometimes you see a guy who is lazy and- and- and just... so you have to wake him up. "So let's go. Uh, do this, respond." So increase your reflexes, increase the capacity for him to be connected.If you see the guy too aggressive, too tense, too nervous, you should, "Hey, man, relax. Breathe. Take your time. Do slow." So educate the guy to be able to control his emotions and his, his aggressiveness and become more peaceful. So anyone has a different par- particular way to learn better or to get a better information. Jiu-jitsu can favor everybody in different ways, no matter if you're aggressive, no matter if you're mean, or if you... So with this being said, I was there to teach jiu-jitsu. I was there to just help people in a way to make i- to empower them. And I also did in a different road to represent jiu-jitsu to fight anyone. So I was not getting in a camp to fight. If I have to fight, I just take my gi and go. I was always in shape. I was always practice. I was always training. But it was not exactly a preparation for a fight. I was feel like I have to be ready because if the guy called me to go to fight on the beach right now, I have to go. So be ready was part of the game, not being an athlete, but being a martial artist. So all those concepts diff- differ from today's attitude towards the practice and the training. And also, some people who are competitors, they cannot teach beginners or be nice with... because they just fight too hard and they have to focus too hard on the training. Either you stay on their boat, or he cannot go and help somebody else in a different atmosphere. For me, it was always, I can, I can fight the worst guys there is today. Tomorrow, I'm gonna be teaching some old lady or some guy, and I keep myself focused on the leverage, on the angles, on the details. So all this give me a sense of being a duo, not only a good teacher, but also a good fighter.

Joe Rogan 38:43 It's so amazing when you stop and think about the fact that your father was such a u- ha- had such a unique circumstance in terms of being small and also, you know, being there with, uh, Carlos when he was teaching those classes. But that the fact that he was small and that he learned leverage and learned to maximize these techniques, it became the most important aspect of jiu-jitsu. To this day, when I talk to people, I sa- I always say, like, "The best instructors, it seems like a lot of them are smaller people, 'cause those smaller people, they can't muscle their way out of these things."

Rickson Gracie 39:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 39:20 Like, sometimes when you get a really big strong guy, they can use too much physical strength. But the small guys, they don't have that option, so everything has to be technical. It has to be precise. It has to be perfect.

Rickson Gracie 39:31 Yes. The, there's no, there's no arguments against techniques and, and, and timing and, and connection. So the ideas of learning jiu-jitsu properly is, is for sure the right way. But some people, they strong and they try to compensate the, the lack of speed or movement with the strength. So they become, they create their own pattern, their own way to fight because they can use, they can afford to waste energy because they have it. My father couldn't. So sometimes they say, "Oh, I don't care too much about little details because I can make it up with this way I can like..." So they start using jiu-jitsu with their personal abilities, with their aggressiveness, with their... and becomes a good formula too, works properly because guy's just good enough to do it. But that's cannot be something we teach for anyone because if you don't have what he has, he cannot be executed. So we have to re- teaching jiu-jitsu in a level anyone can take it. And after that point, you can take what you learn and add your personal, your personal abilities and attributes.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Don't you think though that even those big strong guys, if they learned everything perfectly, if they learned the right technique and the right way and almost ignored the fact that they were strong, they would have even more success?

Rickson Gracie 40:56 Oh, man. Def- definitely. Imagine Helio Gracie with 250 pounds.

Joe Rogan 41:01 (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 41:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:02 Yeah. Exactly, right?

Rickson Gracie 41:04 Yeah, you know? So...

Joe Rogan 41:04 I mean, you think of there's, uh, you know, one time I remember, um, when Krome was young, you and I, um, we were over at your house and you were showing me some fights from, uh, Coliseum.

Rickson Gracie 41:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:17 From the, the 2000 event. And we- you were breaking down how so many fighters leave so much space.

Rickson Gracie 41:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 41:26 And that this is all fundamentally wrong. And that if you, if you follow the correct principles of jiu-jitsu and if you see the, even these guys who are jiu-jitsu black belts-

Rickson Gracie 41:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 41:35 ... they left space.

Rickson Gracie 41:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 41:37 They left, they had all these errors that they shouldn't have had because they didn't concentrate on the details the way your father did.

Rickson Gracie 41:43 Yes. I agree 100% because today not only the jiu-jitsu becomes very popular, but the competitiveness aspect of jiu-jitsu creates based on rules and, and, a- and, and practice. A jiu-jitsu which not representing the control for the kill is a jiu-jitsu represents more strategy for winning a tournament by points, advantages. Of course, if the guy make a mistake, you can choke or submit. But the great objectivity of the fight today is not losing by points, is not expose yourself by losing by little. So the, the worries and the con- and the concerns about fighting become a little different than just fight for winning and keeping tight. Like, you know, there's no two sho- no two options. You have to just go for the kill and tighten up and take advantage of every spa- every different space is given to capitalize. So the idea of controlling your opponent with the objectivity to win-It's a little different than the objectivity of a jiu-jitsu who has create points or, or, or a system which in two or three minutes, the fight is gonna end and I'm gonna win. So why you're gonna bother? So you can see a strategy was not there in my time.

Joe Rogan 43:06 Yeah, there's a lot of that you would see with wrestlers entering into these tournaments where they would figure out how to hold the guy down, take a guy down, hold the guy down, but they would never pass through a dominant position and they would never finish. They would never try to finish. That was not their objective. Their objective was just to score points.

Rickson Gracie 43:23 Yes. And you put that kind of strategy and a very tough guy who decides to compete in the MMA or a fight on the street, he will feel, like, not exactly comfortable to, to, to, to, to, to be effective in jiu-jitsu the way he's supposed to be because he's not gonna find ideas for points or submission or, or, or, or strategies comp- competitive strategies on the street or on the MMA. That's why the jiu-jitsu and MMA today has less representativity than supposed to have because becomes a little spacey, the guard, the vale-tudo guard, especially, is not present in maybe 95% of the jiu-jitsu fighters today.

Joe Rogan 44:07 But when you say by the vale-tudo guard, like, what specifically do you mean about that?

Rickson Gracie 44:12 Because if I don't have a vale-tudo guard, I don't know how to deal with somebody who wants to punch me.

Joe Rogan 44:17 Or headbutt.

Rickson Gracie 44:18 Or headbutt or elbows or, or striking or conf- getting in a position to hurt me. A vale-tudo guard expects only the striking, only the headbutt on, so I'm comfortable to deal with that. If you, if you train in jiu-jitsu for life and every time you put a gi and try to do arm locks and you put yourself in a position you could get punched and you never receive those punches, you never receive those... the... you're never aware of the, the angles and the possibilities, you become, like unaware.

Joe Rogan 44:47 Hmm.

Rickson Gracie 44:48 So you bring that ju- defective jiu-jitsu to a MMA fight, you will be scared of being in a guard because every time you're in a guard, you get punched, you get problems, different than a guy who has a comfortable situation from the, from the guard position. I, I really like Kron's vale-tudo guard because he's aware of the situ-... he loves to be in a guard as he loves to be mounted, like myself. For me, I have no problems to be on the bottom in the guard or have to be mounted. For me, two are good, great positions for victory.

Joe Rogan 45:21 The, um... that's a very good point because there is a transitionary period when fighters who are only competing in jiu-jitsu have to deal with those punches. And a lot of times, they are not comfortable at all being on their back.

Rickson Gracie 45:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:33 They, they'd like to get out of that position, and they would only like to be on top because, in that position, they can control the strikes better.

Rickson Gracie 45:40 Yes. And then you have to deal with a s- with a wrestler-

Joe Rogan 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 45:43 ... who is impossible to take down, and you're spending all your energy trying to go instead pull him to the ground and, and kick his ass with pretty much simple attitude, you know?

Joe Rogan 45:53 When you see, uh, jiu-jitsu today, um, and you see that there's so much of it that, uh, does rely on points, do you long for the day... like, d- do you wish that they had no-limit jiu-jitsu matches that were submission only? Do you think that's a better way to do it?

Rickson Gracie 46:12 I mean, definitely, not only for jiu-jitsu but for MMA, if you wanna be a result, you have to take off the judge and the points to see who is the best guy out there.

Joe Rogan 46:22 Right.

Rickson Gracie 46:23 You know? And a tennis, and a tennis match can be quickly resolved if I win the three sets, but can be a five-hour f- dispute if every point we dispute like crazy.

Joe Rogan 46:36 Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 46:37 And that's gonna be the difference to see a half-hour game or a five-hour game. So why we don't have that kind of scenario in jiu-jitsu or in MMA? Because you wanna see somebody win at the end. And the situation, if I p- score on you 10 points and you end up mounted on me, I win because I have 10 points and you... but in reality, if you mount on me and you end the fight mounted, your chance for you to be the winner is bigger. Same thing than MMA. If I fight in MMA and I have... I win the first round because I punch once in the face. I win the se- second round because I punch you again in the face and nothing happen. And on the third round, you mount on me, I turn back, you choke me out. When I's about to tap, the time that the bell rings, the, the s- the, the judge stops the fight, the guy who wins the previous two rounds win the match. And that's not, for me, a, a realistic understanding of what is the fight means. For me, the value of the... who's winning the, the, the last round, if you already... if I have already the choke, I just need 10 more seconds to beat you and the fight is over. In, in terms of reality, this guy lost the fight. No way for him to win. And that's not happened. So the interpretation, the rules, the, the time, the... they're all kinda coming to, to promote entertainment, but not to give you the sense of who's the best guy out there.

Joe Rogan 48:14 It is a problem, right? Where you're trying to figure out how to make something so it's palatable to people to watch as an entertainment-

Rickson Gracie 48:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 48:22 ... vehicle, but it's also representative of, uh, a competitive martial art.

Rickson Gracie 48:29 I don't think it's a, it's a capacity for you to do, do both.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Hmm.

Rickson Gracie 48:33 I think right now the idea is entertainment, which is very relevant. People love it. Fighters make money. Everything goes well. I don't say nothing wrong about it, but it's not martial arts.

Joe Rogan 48:48 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 48:48 It's a game, entertainment, something which people...Like to siege for the blows, for the heart, for the violence, but it's not about who is the best guy out there.

Joe Rogan 48:59 It's a game that uses martial arts.

Rickson Gracie 49:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 49:02 I wonder if there's room for, uh ... well, it would have to be both. It would have to be no holds barred, and it would also have to be no time limits.

Rickson Gracie 49:12 Yes.

Joe Rogan 49:13 And some, I think f- I feel like someone could put something like that to- together, but it would... The problem is in, at the highest levels of the organizations, everybody wants to fight for the UFC or they wanna fight for Bellator. I mean, that's really what, what you want. If you want the, the biggest companies with the most experience, most, most, uh, eyes on you, it's ... I don't think they're gonna be willing to do that. They're not gonna be willing to have these no limit, no time limit, no rules fights. So if that's the case, you're not gonna get the best athletes, 'cause the best athletes are gonna get signed to the-

Rickson Gracie 49:47 Of course.

Joe Rogan 49:48 ... UFC and signed to Bellator.

Rickson Gracie 49:50 Of course. Yeah, like I said, the, the idea of entertainment, the idea of business is go way above the idea of legitimacy or, or, or-

Joe Rogan 50:02 Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 50:02 ... or, or who ... So I think in terms of ideas, the idea of making something real is appealing. But in terms of business, I feel like the way we have right now is, is more appealing. Is more ... is the way it is.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yeah. Well, it's popular. The good thing is it's making more people wanna train martial arts and train jujitsu and train kickboxing, but I see what you're saying in that the purity is not the same as the early days.

Rickson Gracie 50:33 Yes. But I also feel like the practice today of, of different styles of martial arts without the, the punishment, without the suffering, you should do ... For example, you, you go in the gym. You've, you, when you go in any gym, no matter if it's MMA, at the beginning, you're not gonna get hurt. You're not gonna get injured. You're gonna be instructed to punch the bag or to throw the hip throws or sweeps. So you getting, you get engaged in a practice which favors your ability to deal the techniques, the ability to get feet, the ability to understand pressure, but at your own pace. Sometimes if you do this too much, you're gonna quit because you're gonna get injury. So the idea of creating a sc- a scenario for f- to, to promote fitness, sense- sensorial ability, for you to develop your senses, your capacities, your breathing, without putting pressure for you to have a enemy in front of you, I think that's growing.

Joe Rogan 51:45 Hmm.

Rickson Gracie 51:45 Because the real enemy today is the COVID. The real enemy today coming through email. So if you have a practice who is more than just go to the gym, lift weights, but a practice to develop your deflection, your timing to ev- to, to escape from a punch, the capacity for you to handle your base and not get fall, the capacity for you to, if you see a neck exposed, to get a headlock. So you start to favor yourself with knowledge and practice, which doesn't put you a fighter, doesn't make you a fighter, but make you knowledgeable about possibilities you may have. And you're gonna be happy to know them. Even though you are a doctor, even though you are a lawyer, even though you are a guy who's a just a executive who has no plans to fight nobody, but by know better, you more confident, you more calm, you more peaceful, because a lot of the insecurity state of mind is what brings violence to the table.

Joe Rogan 52:42 Hmm.

Rickson Gracie 52:43 The violence coming when you feel threatened, when you feel, "Oh, man, I ..." So ego and stuff. So when you become more confident, even though you're not a fighter, even though you just practice in a, in a light way, you become much more com- uh, comfortable to, to be peaceful, to, to say, "Hey, man, I'm sorry. I don't wanna fight. No." So you're able to come up with situations which is not about fighting to win, it's about win without a fight. So using a lot of the concepts of martial arts make you more forgiveness, make you more, uh, balanced, make you more capable to, to stretch your, your patience. And, and that's very positive to handle life, problem, situations, and so on.

Joe Rogan 53:30 And I always tell people that j- I believe that jujitsu is the best martial art for real-life conflict because in training, you're really going 100%. It's like if you go 100% all the time with kickboxing, you knock each other out every day, you can't do that.

Rickson Gracie 53:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:45 You'll, you'll be damaged. You'll get brain damage. You'll have to, you'll have to quit.

Rickson Gracie 53:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:48 But in jujitsu, you, when you have a training partner, they could be your brother, you could love them, but you're trying to choke them, and they're trying to tap you, and you're going at it full blast. And then you ta- get ... You tap or you tap them and you keep going.

Rickson Gracie 54:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:04 When you deal with a real-life conflict, if you ... that ever happens, and hopefully it never will, you'll be accustomed to people resisting 100%.

Rickson Gracie 54:11 Yes. Jujitsu give you the pleasure of feeling your gates, you know? Your temperature, your tiredness, your panicking, your intelligence, your sharpness, your techniques. So you're able to, to use those in a very expressive way. You, you able to unleash the, the, the beast anytime you want. You may ... So you're able to really recognize yourself under pressure, discomfortable, comfortable, confident. And those are give y- give you the articulation to live. You leave the school, you able ... you're more peaceful, you're more sharp, you're more intelligent. You're more ... Because you, you been sharpen your knife at the school to use at life.

Joe Rogan 54:50 What are your thoughts on all the new techniques of jujitsu? Um, uh, there's like, there's many schools of thoughts when it comes to jujitsu. A lot of them-A lot of people like to try all these fancy new moves, and all these new strategies and new ways of a- approaching things, berimbolos and, you know, different Imanari roles. And, and some people think that the best way to handle it is to look at the very basics of jujitsu, and just hone those to a razor sharpness.

Rickson Gracie 55:21 I love the, the fundamentals, you know. Uh, those fundamentals are the core of efficiency. But those fundamentals, sometimes they connected with different elements of, of creativity. And because the guys, they training like crazy today and always been, but the evolutionary process of the, the tournaments and the grips and the things, lapel guards and things, so I cannot deny the effectiveness of this when you have a lapel. I cannot deny the, the practice of this when the opponent is playing the game you're expecting him to play. But it's always a way to deal with situations to diminish the effectiveness of a, a lapel. So that's, that play today, the guy come in with a technique of a lapel guard, some other guy come in with the anti-lapel guard technique to do. So this evolves, evolves, evolves to the point where sometimes becomes a lot of waste in time, because what, in reality, what you want to submit the opponent, not exactly make a sweep or making ... So the idea of the submission, the idea of the finishing, the idea of being in control cannot be diminished based on that kind of amount of new techniques. So for every 10 techniques I see, I can relate at least with one. I can maybe accept works good maybe three or four. But others will depend of the opponent allow you to do. Pretty much a lot of things they show are effective when the situation is exactly what they show. If the guy change a little bit, it's not happen anymore. So I don't ... I'm not exactly in favor of new techniques. I know they happen, but I really like the, the fundamentals.

Joe Rogan 57:09 The fundamentals are the core.

Rickson Gracie 57:10 Yes.

Joe Rogan 57:11 What did you think when ... Uh, Eddie Bravo when you, uh ... He, he showed you some of his ideas for rubber guard and some of those techniques la- last time we got together.

Rickson Gracie 57:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:21 What did you, what did you think about those?

Rickson Gracie 57:25 They have ... If you, if you know what to expect and how to handle, you can defend. Between them, if both guys are expert on the same, the si- the situation will be diminished because the effectiveness is not there anymore. Pretty much some techniques are good to surprise the opponent, but not effective against a opponent who knows better, you know?

Joe Rogan 57:50 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 57:50 So I was talking with Jean Jacques one day about it. He said, "Yeah, it's go- it works, but if you do this and that, you kill the position and there's nothing gonna happen." And I understand every situation is like that in jujitsu, but in some situations, which the ones I really like, as you protect one, you expose other.

Joe Rogan 58:13 Hm.

Rickson Gracie 58:14 As you ex- protect this one, you gonna ... So it's always something for me to escalate the pressure and go towards the submission. Some positions, they stuck in the middle, and I need you to make a mistake for me to capitalize. If you don't make a mistake, we get stuck here and so I cannot escalate the process. The positions I like, I c- I'm able to escalate. I go to the neck, you protect the neck, I'm already going for a, for an arm lo- so I, I, I able to k- create a, a, a comfortable evolutionary process to the submission.

Joe Rogan 58:48 One of the more interesting things about jujitsu today is the evolution of the leg lock game. It's really accelerated, uh, over the last, say, six or seven years.

Rickson Gracie 58:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 58:57 Is, uh b- b- s- s- particularly because of, uh, John Danaher and the Renzo Gracie team. The- they, these guys have, uh, effectively changed the way a lot of particularly No Gi fights go down. What, what are your thoughts on that?

Rickson Gracie 59:11 I always been a very much, uh, fan for leg locks. I remember a long time ago, my friend Eric Paulson, he show me a tape when I was about to go to Japan to fight, the first Vale Tudo. He show me a tape of Shoto. Sho- Shoto was the, the, the techniques were created by Satoru Sayama, uh, Sayama, which is the, the tiger mask in Japan. So he show me the tape, and in that tape, they go a lot of knee locks and, and leg locks. So next day, I was inspired to do leg locks and, and foot locks and everybody. Foot locks, I already expert. I was already know. The knee locks were new for me. So in the next day, I was training with everybody at the school and submitting everybody on the leg locks, knee locks. I always been very much, uh ... I really like f- leg locks with no doubts. And I felt like sometimes if I wanna cheat, if I wanna win fast, I go for the leg lock because the guy will tap quicker. I was feeling like almost like, oh, leg locks is cheating because it's too easy. Without this, the leg locks understanding and pressure are never been exposed too much to others and, and s- now like you said, after the, this kind of group start to training and stuff, so they really become more effective in knee locks, leg locks and that's g- a big game change if you don't know how to escape. But again, if you get two guys are expert, the training partners, you're not gonna see that many leg locks. You're gonna see a lot of preparations and stuff, but the leg locks you wi- will get, the surprising ones who don't know the ability to escape, because if you know what I want, as you start to approach, I start to escaping.My, my movements has to be coordinate to anticipate the, the final move. If you get me in a checkmate, it's over. So with the legs are, are two possibilities for you to get the, the situation and make it happen. And, uh, and it's very dangerous if you're not aware. But as you start to get used to give foot locks and get ... You become like a part, like giving chokes and taking chokes. So that's becomes normal and it's just a new way, a new option for, for the submission.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 To prove your point, Craig Jones, who's one of the Danaher guys, said that they almost never tap each other with leg locks.

Rickson Gracie 1:01:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 And, and k- he goes, "They don't even go for it."

Rickson Gracie 1:01:45 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Because everybody knows the positions and knows the defense.

Rickson Gracie 1:01:48 Yes. So they anticipate the defense. It becomes like ... It's just one more pe- pe- piece on the puzzle, you know, and it's very well done, and it's very, very dangerous. And if you're not aware, you can get a quick defeat. Because especially on the knee locks, if you try to resist, pop your ligaments, and instead you feel pain. So it's very dangerous.

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 When the early days, uh ... In the early days of jujitsu tournaments, if someone tried to win by leg lock, the crowd would go crazy and boo.

Rickson Gracie 1:02:15 Mm, not really. It's not ... You're not common. Was not common, but, you know, it happened.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 Maybe not in the early days, maybe after the early days. But there was a, a time in jujitsu tournaments, for sure if someone would try to tap someone with a leg lock or a knee bar. Do you think that was because of the concern with, uh, injury?

Rickson Gracie 1:02:35 Yes. The idea of bec- ... The idea of knee f- ... The foot lock, even though I'm grabbing your foot and try to attack the joint of the foot, depending how I use my hips and my legs, I can really force your knee. So sometimes, the, the, the, the, the criticism was, "Oh, the guy went to my foot, but he put pressure on my knee and pop my knee instead." So he's still holding the foot, but with the intention to, to hurt your knee. And those kind of inverse positions was forbidden for a long time in jujitsu. So when somebody gets your foot, the referee will s- ... He will see if your intention is to hurt his knee and then immediately stop the fight, and, and, and give you penalties and stuff. But now, it's legal. Now they open for the f- ... And people gonna start to get improving in defenses, improving in situations, to don't let yourself get caught. It's just like a matter of understanding the techniques and start to practice accordingly, too. And it gonna become just another variant of the submission.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 Do you think it just has to be people have to be more cautious in training and teaching it, especially to, to new people?

Rickson Gracie 1:03:42 Definitely. Because, like I said, this works on the ligaments. If I force my finger this way, I will feel pain before I, I hurt. If I force this way, will pop, and then I will feel pain. So you hurts nothing, and then pop.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 1:03:59 So the knee has lega- lateral ligaments which prevents from moving laterally. If I resist, I feel nothing until it pops. It's not gonna feel pain different than a straight knee bar.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 And then you need surgery.

Rickson Gracie 1:04:12 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 Yeah. It's, uh ... It's a big issue with, uh, leg lock specialists. M- a giant percentage of them wind up having, uh, knee surgery.

Rickson Gracie 1:04:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 It's a difficult thing to learn when you're, you know ... unless you're with really good training partners, and everyone's cautious, and y- you do it correctly. But it can be done.

Rickson Gracie 1:04:31 Yes, it can be done.

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 Um, tell me about your book. Your, your book is out today.

Rickson Gracie 1:04:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Uh, it's called Breathe. What was, what was the ... What was the motivation to write this book?

Rickson Gracie 1:04:45 First of all, the motivation was money. I have a good proposal from the, the publishing house, and I felt like, especially on those days it's hard to make money, I felt like it was a good option. And then the second, the second motivation, the reason I did was the fact ... I've been passing for so many experience, you know. And, uh, those experience make me grow as a man, make me feel like capable to seek for happiness in a much more proper way, and make sure also the development of my warrior tools, not only physical, technical, but also the mindset, the emotional, and also the spiritual aspect of acceptance, shows I- I've been through a lot, and, uh, and give my exposure of my life of things I did to resolve the matters. So it's a very special ... I mean, I hope you like it, because if you don't like it, I don't have another life to tell you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 1:05:48 But the tale of my life is basically on, you know, my experience, my life in Rio, which is very, very unpredictable, very wild, my relationship with my father, my brothers, my growing up as a jujitsu practitioner, my, my times of parties in Brazil, and, uh, you know. So it was all ... My life, which I felt like even my mistakes I used to become a better person. So it was a, a process of ... a evolutionary process which I'm very proud of it, because today, even though I'm physically destroyed, like my back is bad, I have so many injuries, I feel like I'm still using jujitsu in a very proper way, through breathing, through visualization, through spiritual guidance. And, and I, I take all the information I have as a fighter to live my life, and know how it's ... how important it is to, to live my life under those guidance, under those things I really believe and make a difference. And this exposes my life in a way to give people, through my experience, the options or the ideas to really may reinvent themselves and become better.

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 Last time I saw you, you were talking to me about your back. So your back is still bothering you?

Rickson Gracie 1:07:11 Yeah, my back is going downhill since, since last time I saw you.

Joe Rogan 1:07:14 Really?

Rickson Gracie 1:07:15 Yes, because I have no more bones and no more-

Joe Rogan 1:07:18 Disks?

Rickson Gracie 1:07:18 ... no more disks, and in between bones, so it's just bone to bone. I heard about stem cells, I heard about different things. My doctor said I have to do surgery. But at this point, I do exercise, I put myself with much less effort to practice jiu-jitsu and stuff, so I reduce my, my activities, and I start to live like an old man, you know? It's just not exactly something I prefer, but with the mindset you can just change things and give you pleasures and things you used to not have. Just today, my walking with the dog, something which give me a pleasure which I didn't have before, you know? So I start to adapt myself to, to still be happy, to still be on top of my game, with less physicality, with less compromise with the, you know, doing things. So I start to become more peaceful in, in my mind and my body.

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 Your father trained jiu-jitsu deep into his 90s, right?

Rickson Gracie 1:08:21 Yes. Not, not training.

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 Gentle.

Rickson Gracie 1:08:23 Showing... Gentle, yes. I... This, this aspect, I still can do it. I cannot live without it. Showing positions, play on the mat, enhancing people's details. Those things are priceless for me, and I will do this for the rest of my life. When I talking about my personal, you know, surfing or practice or, you know, Cro invite me to practice with him, if I training five minutes with him today, gonna be five months of physiotherapy after.

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 Mm.

Rickson Gracie 1:08:51 So things like that, I, I start to stay away from, but other than that, I'm okay.

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 So have you talked to any specialists about stem cells and, and whether or not they can help you?

Rickson Gracie 1:09:03 Yes. Stem cells, I... F- first are very chea- v- it's not cheap.

Joe Rogan 1:09:08 Right.

Rickson Gracie 1:09:09 And I still cash an inch to, to go if I have to. I heard some good things about it, I'm not sure, but the last doctor I spoke with was a neurosurgeon. He said in my case, would be hard to create new tissues and new disks, and, and creating spaces again. I mean, my a- my process of degeneration is very, very aggressive. So he suggests me a surgery, a fusion of v- vertebras-

Joe Rogan 1:09:38 Oof.

Rickson Gracie 1:09:38 ... and stuff, which I feel like even though if I fix one, the f- the damage in the other vertebras can-

Joe Rogan 1:09:45 Yes.

Rickson Gracie 1:09:45 ... can get worse then. So I just try to keep a mellow life and start to feel like those injuries become like a, a gifts from God, you know? It's something which I milk my body so much, I have to pay the bills now, and it's nothing I have to do, "Oh, I have to be good. I, I am, I'm patience. I have, you know, I have to pr..." No, it's not like that. I have done with my body enough, more than enough, so whatever I have left, I'm happy with.

Joe Rogan 1:10:14 That's a beautiful attitude about it. Um, the, uh, the disk degeneration issue is, uh, is a factor with, uh, all jiu-jitsu practitioners. I've, I've had a bunch of disk problems-

Rickson Gracie 1:10:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:10:26 ... over the years, and-

Rickson Gracie 1:10:27 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:10:28 I've fo- I've found some, uh, training methods to mitigate it. Uh, specifically some different, uh, pieces of equipment that, uh, provide you with, uh, spinal decompression. There's a g- piece of equipment that I talk about all the time on this podcast called the Reverse Hyper, that actually, um, allows you to strengthen all the muscles around the spine, but it, uh, actively, uh, it decompresses the spine as well at the same time.

Rickson Gracie 1:10:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 But-

Rickson Gracie 1:10:54 I like to stay on the pool with weights on my waist-

Joe Rogan 1:10:57 Mm.

Rickson Gracie 1:10:58 ... and weights on my feet, and the deep pool, and I, with a flotation device.

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 Oh, just hanging.

Rickson Gracie 1:11:05 So I'm, I'm hanging on the w- and the, the, the weight's stretching my spine, and I still exercise with the legs.

Joe Rogan 1:11:10 Mm.

Rickson Gracie 1:11:11 It's been very helpful. But, you know, it's just minimizing a little bit, but the problem is there.

Joe Rogan 1:11:16 Yeah. Well, I'm hoping that stem cells get to the point where they can regenerate new tissue in between the disks. I know they've had some success with doing that, um, but I, I don't know how much success.

Rickson Gracie 1:11:29 From your lips to God's ears.

Joe Rogan 1:11:30 Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 1:11:30 Let me know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:32 (laughs) Wouldn't it be amazing if you could start rolling again?

Rickson Gracie 1:11:34 Oh, man. Unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 1:11:35 Yeah, every jiu-jitsu guy who gets to a certain age, they reach that point and they... Except Jean Jacques. Jean Jacques's amazing.

Rickson Gracie 1:11:42 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:11:42 He's always been so smart in how he trains. He always trains very easy and light. That guy has no injuries.

Rickson Gracie 1:11:48 Yes. He's a, a good example of a, a perfect warrior.

Joe Rogan 1:11:52 He's so smart-

Rickson Gracie 1:11:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:11:53 ... in how he trains, and just never explodes. Everything is slow progression-

Rickson Gracie 1:11:59 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:11:59 ... perfect defense.

Rickson Gracie 1:12:00 And you see the knot just tied up around your neck-

Joe Rogan 1:12:03 (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 1:12:03 ... and eventually say after, "It's time to tap."

Joe Rogan 1:12:05 Yep. (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 1:12:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 Yeah, it's just, uh, it's a very, um... To me, it's very inspirational how he's, uh, managed to avoid injuries.

Rickson Gracie 1:12:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:12:13 And still could train hard.

Rickson Gracie 1:12:15 Yes. Very much.

Joe Rogan 1:12:17 Um, do you do any kind of, uh, exercise other than the, the pool stuff nowadays?

Rickson Gracie 1:12:23 I do f- w- c- what we can say the physiotherapy ones, you know? The good dis- the, the proper abdominals, sit-ups, and the way I, I do my, like, Superman positions for f- enhance the back. I do some gym work, like machines and stuff, but nothing too crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:12:41 Do you, uh, do any yoga anymore, or any of the gymnastic au naturel?

Rickson Gracie 1:12:45 Yes, I do a little bit. Not to, not to, to, to enhance mobility, because that's can create problems.

Joe Rogan 1:12:53 Aggravate? Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 1:12:53 Yeah. But more for, for breathing, for the movements, for the... circulate the energy, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:13:00 You are also probably the, the first in jiu-jitsu that emphasized flexibility. You w- you were always very, very flexible and mobile.

Rickson Gracie 1:13:10 Yeah. I, I disagree. The, the... it's part of jujitsu. We are flexible. All the cousins, w- flexibility was part of the, the idea of jujitsu, you know, is a, is a thin, is a thin tree, which the storm comes, they, they bend, and they go back normal. A big tree will fall and break.

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 Hmm.

Rickson Gracie 1:13:30 So you don't wanna be hard and tense. You wanna be flexible and allow yourself to just smooth y- your escape out like Houdini. So jujitsu has a lot to do with the mechanism, the mechanism of escaping and development of angles and stances. So all the family is flexible. I really like the, the, the bio-gymnastica and also like the, the movements, the- be expressing myself with move. So I always like to dance, I like to exercise freely, so I may develop a little more than others. But pretty much, it's part of jujitsu, being flexible.

Joe Rogan 1:14:07 But your, your flexibility was always very extreme though.

Rickson Gracie 1:14:09 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:14:09 Like when you stand on a balance bar and do a standing split and hold your leg up in the air.

Rickson Gracie 1:14:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 That's pretty incredible.

Rickson Gracie 1:14:15 Yes. It's good.

Joe Rogan 1:14:17 How much of that... That must have also enhanced your ability to perform certain positions.

Rickson Gracie 1:14:24 I was worried about everything, so I could not let my tightness get away from me to do a position, so I was flexible. And I also very focused. I, I was the first one to see peop- el- elastic exercise. I did myself. I didn't know it exist. Now, people do elastics a lot, but I was going to the diving shop to buy the, the diving rubber-

Joe Rogan 1:14:49 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 1:14:49 ... to put in the spear guns to take home and putting... making a harness on my head.

Joe Rogan 1:14:55 Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 1:14:55 So I was working with the functional strength in a very early age.

Joe Rogan 1:15:00 And you just figured that out on your own?

Rickson Gracie 1:15:01 Yeah, I just figured it out.

Joe Rogan 1:15:02 'Cause I remember that, um, in choke, that you had that rubber band around your head. You, you're working on your neck muscles, and that's very similar to a thing that I use now that they sell called the iron neck.

Rickson Gracie 1:15:13 Yes. Because, you know, when you use the, the, the, the, the strengthening with elastics, you have is... resistance for you to do throws-

Joe Rogan 1:15:23 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 1:15:23 ... you know, because if it's static. But when it's pulling up, you have to do the energy of pulling and moving your hip connected to not losing the momentum. So with the elastics, you have a good ch- a good training for throws-

Joe Rogan 1:15:38 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 1:15:38 ... good training for base, good training for movement, for balance, for neck strength, for shoulder strength. So it's a lot of things coming from the bottom and stretch up with the elastics, make a continuous energy from the func- from the functional aspect. So I really like the exercise with elastics because give me a complete idea and also flexibility and so on.

Joe Rogan 1:16:00 But you figured all this out on your own?

Rickson Gracie 1:16:02 Yeah, I'm a lucky-

Joe Rogan 1:16:03 (laughs)

Rickson Gracie 1:16:03 ... smart guy.

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 You're a lucky smart guy, yeah. But it's uh, it's amazing how many people use them now, the strikers, judo guys-

Rickson Gracie 1:16:10 Yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:16:10 ... all kinds of athletes that use it for functional training.

Rickson Gracie 1:16:13 Yes. And breathing too. I see a lot of people, like tennis players using breathing.

Joe Rogan 1:16:18 Mm-hmm.

Rickson Gracie 1:16:19 So the, the, the idea of using breathing functionally makes all the difference because if you don't know how to breathing, you can be an athlete, but you're gonna get quite tired with the, the, the f- the blood, th- not enough blood, oxygen in your blood in your brain, so you start to make poor decisions and stuff. When you know how to hyperventilate, you change the game of your performance. I increased maybe 40% after learning how to breathe.

Joe Rogan 1:16:49 40%.

Rickson Gracie 1:16:50 40% solid improvement of how to recover, how to last longer, how to everything.

Joe Rogan 1:16:57 It's interesting. You said that, uh, Stylebender, the UFC middleweight champion, has recently started incorporating breath work, and he said it's made a tremendous difference.

Rickson Gracie 1:17:06 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:17:06 And he said, "I will never gas out in a fight again-"

Rickson Gracie 1:17:09 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:17:09 ... because now I, I understand how to control my breath."

Rickson Gracie 1:17:11 Yeah, not only gas out, you, you become, you become much more resilient for fighting, but your brain becomes clear because when you start to get tired, you don't, you don't push oxygen to your brain, so you become dummy and making poor decisions, so function in every aspect of your life.

Joe Rogan 1:17:29 And that's why you decided to title the book Breathe.

Rickson Gracie 1:17:32 Yes. The bre- the breathe was maybe the, the big change in my life was when I learned how to breathe, I start to bring in more spiritual possibilities, more mental possibilities. Because what is interesting about the, the, the breathing aspect is the brain and the, and the heart are the only organs who can give and receive information. The other organs, liver, kidney, they don't... cannot do that. But when you get upset with something mentally, you bring information to yourself immediately. Your brain's responding. Your heart, too. When you get depressed, immediately you feel in your heart. And your heart show you, you sad, show you... it's immediately connection. And what is amazing about that is the lung is the practical aspect within you who are able to control or help your he- your brain, and also help your heart. So through the proper breathing, you can control your heartbeats. Through the proper breathing, you can control your mindset and get calmer, control your panic, control your courage, control everything you need in the mental aspect, and also spiritual, hope, faith, visualizations. So all the elements in your brain, all the elements in your heart can be much better guided, much better helped through the lungs. If you don't know how to involve your lungs in your brin- in your breathing, you, you, you're not able to...... to, to favor your h- your brain and your heart the way it's supposed to be.

Joe Rogan 1:19:17 It's kind of amazing that everybody breathes, but a relatively small percentage of people know how to breathe correctly.

Rickson Gracie 1:19:24 Yes. You born, you get slapped on your butt (wails) , and you think you're alive and well and you breathe for life. It's not like that. The first learn you learn about breathing is to move the upper body, uh, uh, the upper part of your lung (wails) . If you don't learn, if you don't practice, you're never gonna use the diaphragmatic breathing, which involves the full capacity of your lungs. So the diaphragm, when you learn how to (wails) move your diaphragm efficiently, you fill up your lungs in a different way. So if I breathe right (wails) or wrong (wails) , either more or less oxygen, up to me the way I use the diaphragma or not. So when I learn how to use that, I'm able to help my body in whatever it needs, mental, spiritual or physical.

Joe Rogan 1:20:22 When you, uh ... That famous scene in Choke when you're moving your stomach around with the drums beating, it's, it's really crazy. A lot of people, people love that scene-

Rickson Gracie 1:20:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:31 ... because you're using that control of your diaphragm. How did you learn how to do that?

Rickson Gracie 1:20:38 The Orlando Kani.

Joe Rogan 1:20:39 He taught you to do that?

Rickson Gracie 1:20:40 He taught me, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:20:41 And how long did it take before you could move your stomach like that? I know-

Rickson Gracie 1:20:44 It's not as difficult-

Joe Rogan 1:20:45 ... Krohn, Krohn can do that too, right?

Rickson Gracie 1:20:46 Yeah. It's not as difficult. You, you can learn this in no time, it's just need the good right instruction because it's all about ... It's, it's a quick learning, you know. It's just you have to put some attention. Because when you learn how to breathe, you start adding oxygen to your life. You can stay fi- seven days without food, five days without water, but five minutes without air, you're dead. So when you know how to hyperventilate, it's like you double your life, triple your lifetime, because you're not get tired as you want.

Joe Rogan 1:21:18 When you, when you say hyperventilate, what do you mean by hyperventilate?

Rickson Gracie 1:21:21 I'm here calm.

Joe Rogan 1:21:22 Right.

Rickson Gracie 1:21:23 If I do this (wails) , I breathe. If I wanna go dive, I need to hyperventilate. So I need to ... Because I s- I'll, I increase the circulation of oxygen in my body, and I increase the blood c- the, the oxygen on the cells. So I do hyperventilation for a little while, and I triple the amount of time I'm gonna be under the water.

Joe Rogan 1:21:54 Hm.

Rickson Gracie 1:21:56 Another important thing for people to learn about breathing is the idea of inhale (wails) . The inhale is not the cause, it's the solution. So what I c- what I ... If I need a full lung, a full breath, I don't wanna just do (wails) . If I want a full breath, I first need to (wails) . Now (wails) , I have a full breath. Because if I just start from here (wails) , I already have 30% of air inside-

Joe Rogan 1:22:28 Hm.

Rickson Gracie 1:22:28 ... which is not ... Which doesn't empty enough. So in order for me to put it all in, 100% of good air inside, my liveness, my attention has to be on the exhale (wails) . Now I'm ready to get the air (wails) . The effort, the strength on the muscle, if I need to big- get a big biceps, I need to curl. If I need to have a strong s- breathing system, I need to exhale (wails) . The inhale is natural. Some people, they feel tired, "I need air (wails) ." They go against the, the, in a- and against the, the, the, the flow, because they try to bring in, which is already claustrophobic. More I need air, more I (wails) . Oh my god (wails) . So my liveness, my focus is to take the bad gas out of me. The good gas come naturally. Some people say, "I need air (wails) ." They need the air, but they're already full of bad gas.

Joe Rogan 1:23:34 Hm.

Rickson Gracie 1:23:35 So and that's make a, a big confusion on the, on the right way, should the gas come in or out? So my organization and my brain is to put the bad gas out of me (wails) . So when I training consistently, I (wails) . If I'm not effective on the exhale, I'm not gonna be effective on inhale. And the liveness of my m- my muscle system is the contraction. The contraction is the diaphragmatic breathing (wails) . This a contraction. If I do a curl for get a strong biceps, that's the contraction. When I do this, I relax. Contract. So contract (wails) , relax (wails) . So and that's give me a, a different edge to understand clear everything around me.

Joe Rogan 1:24:30 It's interesting because it's so counterintuitive. The body naturally-

Rickson Gracie 1:24:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:24:33 ... wants to (gasps) .

Rickson Gracie 1:24:35 Yes. And you get p- panic and claustrophobic.

Joe Rogan 1:24:37 Panic. Yeah, panic breathing. And that's, uh ... You, you really learn that in jujitsu, like the good guys all know how to stay calm and breathe well in, in hard roles.

Rickson Gracie 1:24:47 Yes. Very important.

Joe Rogan 1:24:49 Um, so did you decide to write this book during the pandemic?

Rickson Gracie 1:24:54 Yes. Yes. I have a good friend who w- helped me to write, Peter Maguire. We've been friends forever and we ta- He's a scholar, very smart guy. And he was talking to me forever about doing a book, but I, I never c- I mean, it's something you do, like, "Okay, let's, let's have a trip to Japan." So you don't know exactly when it's gonna happen or something just, "Okay, let's keep this in mind." With the pandemic, things getting more like-... you know, stuck, stagnant.

Joe Rogan 1:25:22 Yeah.

Rickson Gracie 1:25:23 And the idea come up and, uh, we have the time and the effort and the, the whole situation to, to put it together.

Joe Rogan 1:25:28 Did you do any teaching at, at all during the pandemic?

Rickson Gracie 1:25:32 Yes. Privates, some internet teaching, some instructions. And now I have, uh, Rickson.Academy, which provides, uh, teaching through the internet.

Joe Rogan 1:25:45 So, is it rickson.academy.com?

Rickson Gracie 1:25:47 Just rickson.academy.

Joe Rogan 1:25:49 Oh, the academy is actually a destination now?

Rickson Gracie 1:25:51 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:25:51 Oh, interesting. Um, so... and that is for... you just put up, uh, all, like, a- all stages of jujitsu. Like what do you... how do you have that set up?

Rickson Gracie 1:26:02 Yeah. It's, it's all there, but my focus now... because something average happen in almost every academy, is for every 10 students who come in today, eight will leave in less than six months. Because the progressiveness of the classes, sometimes too soon gonna put you with a monster. That means a younger guy who try to beat you. And sometimes that experience can be harmful because you don't have the heart, you don't have the, the spirit for fighting. You go there to train and to pra- And some strong kid hurt you or, or don't care about you, and you feel like, "Wow, man, I'm not here to get hurt. I'm a musician. I hurt my finger." So, and then for any reason you quit. I feel like that kinda situation will keep, will preserve the warriors, will preserve the ones who get injured, put ice and come back next day. Who gets the mindset, "Oh, a guy beat me up. T- tomorrow I go there to, to, to make my revenge." So those guys, they keep jujitsu forever. And they will take what it needs to, to grow in the jujitsu lifestyle. They will become better persons. But the eight guys who quit, I felt like they not favored because the exposure of jujitsu for them was not exactly perfect to, to engage them in a lifetime practice. So my proposal now, my ideas now is not only to, not only to enforce the top guys who are good effect- effectiveness in competing. Instead, I like to create the b- bigger base, creating more people who unaware of jujitsu become comfortable to practice jujitsu and take advantage of what jujitsu can give to them. So if I put competition, if I put sparring, I'm not gonna have the result I want. So I wanna empower the guys by develop them on the senses they, they have and they don't know. The leverage, the base, the capacity to angle themselves, the, the timing, the deflections, the connection. So all the elements are there to serve you. And they will be... Eh, you're gonna be very happy to learn without the egocentric aspect, the competitiveness, the disappointment, the... Everything gonna happen if I allowed you to practice. So the first year in this program has no opponents. The first year in this program has only training partners where the guy gonna help you to understand the better angle of your chin, the better... the weight distribution, how you hold, how you throw, how... So you're gonna learn techniques, you're gonna learn to enhance yourself with possibilities without the emotional aspect, without the, the, the frustration, without the hurting. In the end of this process, because at this point you get no color, belt, nothing, you're gonna say after an year, "Master, what about competition? What about blue belt?" I'm gonna say, "Okay, you can go for the blue belt." Well, you're gonna start to fighting against a guy who don't wanna let you do. You wanna try pass John guard, but John not gonna let you do it. So it's gonna be a fight there and you're gonna have to get used to the fight aspect. If you like that, you're gonna keep for blue belt, purple belt, brown belt, great. If you don't like that because you felt too violent, or too aggressive, or too brutal, whatever, you stick with the fundamentals for life because you... here, you're gonna get fit, you're gonna get sharp in your possibilities to deflect a punch, to not get punched in the face, to don't get... to know how to escape. And you're not gonna fight, you're just gonna learn and practice and get l- lean. You're gonna get everything you need from, from fighting. But everything you need from jujitsu to empower you, to give you sense of balance, more sharpness in your mind, more reflexes, more... So the ability for you to become a fighter is not there. But the ability for you to learn yours- about yourself and know everything you can do in case of eventual situation will be there for you for the rest of your life.

Joe Rogan 1:30:18 So how do you have this structured? Do you have it structured so that a person learns with another person so that you, like, you get together with a friend and you go over the, the program together?