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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #127 with Mikey Musumeci

Joe sits down with Mikey Musumeci, a five-time world champion Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt currently signed to ONE Championship. https://www.onefc.com/athletes/mikey-musumeci/

Mikey MusumeciguestJoe Roganhost
Jun 27, 20242h 3mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:29

    Show kickoff, missing Jamie, and COVID talk begins

    1. MM

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) We're up? Well, what a journey, Mikey. We were supposed to be doing this. First of all, thank you to Redband for saving the day.

    3. MM

      Hey. (laughs)

    4. JR

      If it wasn't for you... (laughs) Once again. Yeah. We've b- yeah, you saved the day with Kanye, and you saved the day with Mikey Musumeci.

    5. MM

      (laughs)

  2. 0:29 – 2:46

    Delta’s lingering effects, training through illness, and treatment choices

    1. JR

      So, Jamie got the cooties, ladies and gentlemen, again. Again. For the second time. He looks great. He doesn't seem like he's that sick. So, we're stuffing him full of IV vitamins out there. And, uh- Ah. So, you've had COVID how many times?

    2. MM

      I think two or three times now.

    3. JR

      Two or three? Did you get tested or you just-

    4. MM

      I got tested two of them, so for sure two, but I think I had it three.

    5. JR

      The third time you think you had it?

    6. MM

      Yeah. Delta was the worst one, though.

    7. JR

      Did you get it bad?

    8. MM

      I could barely walk from Delta.

    9. JR

      Really? For how long?

    10. MM

      Like, my lungs and ... like, a good month of, like, dying. (laughs)

    11. JR

      Really?

    12. MM

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      Wow. Well, you were probably training the whole time, weren't you?

    14. MM

      I was training during the Omicron one-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. MM

      ... but, uh, the Delta one, like, my muscles, I couldn't lift my arms and legs. Like, it got really bad.

    17. JR

      Wow. That's crazy 'cause you're in really good shape and you're, you're young.

    18. MM

      Yeah, I run six miles every morning, and I could barely walk a mile when I had it.

    19. JR

      Wow.

    20. MM

      Yeah, it really-

    21. JR

      So, it got you hard.

    22. MM

      ... it really messed me up. (laughs)

    23. JR

      Did you, do you think you were getting it and then you kept working out and it got worse? Was it one of those deals?

    24. MM

      I think so, but I think the residual effects of it from after being sick are what messed me up. Like, with the muscles-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      ... it felt like my body was, like, decomposing.

    27. JR

      Wow.

    28. MM

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      How long did it take before you, like, fully got over it?

    30. MM

      Ugh. A few months. Like, completely, like, where my body didn't feel messed up.

  3. 2:46 – 4:01

    Relocating to Singapore: Evolve gym, ONE Championship, and cultural immersion

    1. JR

      So, when you were ... what are you doing in Singapore? You were training-

    2. MM

      Yeah, so-

    3. JR

      ... in Singapore and living in Singapore?

    4. MM

      Yeah. So, the last four months, I've been living in Singapore. Um, I moved there to train at Evolve, which is the most, the coolest gym I've ever been in in my life.

    5. JR

      Yeah?

    6. MM

      It's huge and, like, the facility is amazing. And, um, I moved there because I wanted to train and see, uh, Chatri, the owner of ONE Championship. Um, I met him one time, and he was, like, the most amazing person I've met. And like, um, he's a true martial artist. He loves jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, and what he stands for with martial arts, like, it really moved me. And it was, um, I moved to Singapore, I changed continents and I've been living there the last four years.

    7. JR

      For four years?

    8. MM

      No, four months. Sorry. (laughs)

    9. JR

      I was like, oh, okay, for four months.

    10. MM

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. JR

      So, for four months, like, wh- how do you live out there? Like, what are you doing?

    12. MM

      So, I'm training every day there and, um, just experiencing the Asian culture, you know? I love learning about cultures and, um, I'm learning Indonesian also.

    13. JR

      Are you really?

    14. MM

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      Is that the language they speak in Singapore?

    16. MM

      They s- they speak Malay-

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MM

      ... but Indonesia's right there also.

    19. JR

      Oh.

    20. MM

      So, ........................ Indonesian ) .

    21. JR

      How good, well-

    22. MM

      (laughs)

  4. 4:01 – 7:35

    Learning Portuguese via Google Translate (and tournament “undercover” stories)

    1. JR

      So, you speak Portuguese.

    2. MM

      Yes.

    3. JR

      Right? Fluent, right?

    4. MM

      Yeah, fluent.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. MM

      I taught myself Portuguese, just being-

    7. JR

      How'd you do that?

    8. MM

      So, I was around Brazilians my whole life.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. MM

      So, um, I just used Google Translate for so many years that I learned Portuguese that way.

    11. JR

      Come on.

    12. MM

      No one ever taught me. (laughs)

    13. JR

      No way.

    14. MM

      Yeah. (laughs)

    15. JR

      Really?

    16. MM

      Just using Google Translate.

    17. JR

      That's insane.

    18. MM

      And then Brazilians always correcting me when I made mistakes.

    19. JR

      Wow. That's nuts.

    20. MM

      So I, so I even know, like, the slangs of the different parts of Brazil 'cause I would just talk in Portuguese on my phone, like, all day with Brazilians. (laughs)

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. MM

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      Th- how ... I've never even heard of someone, like, learning from Google Translate. How much time did you spend on Google Translate?

    24. MM

      Lots of hours. (laughs)

    25. JR

      ... That's insanity.

    26. MM

      Yeah, 'cause you just, over time, just keep using it. You start seeing the words and you start remembering the words.

    27. JR

      Did you train much in Brazil?

    28. MM

      No. I've only, uh, I learned Portuguese completely out of Brazil.

    29. JR

      Wow. And so, just talking to Brazilians-

    30. MM

      Every day, yeah.

  5. 7:35 – 10:25

    Committing long-term to ONE: belts, Amazon Prime, and showcasing pure styles

    1. JR

      So, the, the process of you going over to Singapore. So, you meet Chatri-

    2. MM

      Yes.

    3. JR

      ... and then you just, just decide to go to Singapore?

    4. MM

      Just decide. (laughs)

    5. JR

      And just decide to move there?

    6. MM

      Yep. It was, um... So, my whole life, I lived very close to my parents, you know, and, um... 25 years. And then I leave and just change continents, you know. Um, again, it was Chatri's vision with martial arts, and, um, I saw, like, the future of jiu-jitsu when I was talking to him, and it was something I wanted to be a part of.

    7. JR

      Mm.

    8. MM

      You know? So I got my stuff, my four shoreline shirts and, like, two gis, and moved to Singapore. (laughs)

    9. JR

      That's it?

    10. MM

      Yeah. (laughs)

    11. JR

      So, did they get an ap- apartment for you or something?

    12. MM

      Yeah, I have an apartment there. Right now, I'm staying in a hotel, but, um, yeah, I'm spending time here in Vegas still and there, you know.

    13. JR

      And so, are you planning on making this a long-term thing, or is this-

    14. MM

      Yes.

    15. JR

      Yeah? Really?

    16. MM

      Yes.

    17. JR

      Wow.

    18. MM

      You know, because what ONE Championship is doing, um, now they're getting into jiu-jitsu-

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. MM

      ... which is so interesting. Um, they're gonna have belts and divisions. I actually have my, uh, I'm fighting for the belt in ONE Championship, September 30th, um, and it's gonna be on Amazon Prime in the US, 'cause now they're getting into the US.

    21. JR

      Oh, interesting.

    22. MM

      Yeah, and what's really cool about them is how they're spreading martial arts all over, with kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, and jiu-jitsu on the same card.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. MM

      So-

    25. JR

      I think that's really interesting.

    26. MM

      So, fans will, like, learn about all the martial arts, you know, like I can watch Muay Thai and kickboxing as well as jiu-jitsu.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. MM

      So the viewership for it just increases so much, you know.

    29. JR

      Well, it's, it's, it's also interesting, right, because they're showing all the different styles by showing grappling only-

    30. MM

      Yeah.

  6. 10:25 – 12:54

    Breaking down Mikey’s back take and his 12-hour drilling mindset

    1. JR

      We played that match on the show we- they were talking about your back take. That back take you did was so slick. Is that a thing you do all the time, the way you did that?

    2. MM

      Yeah. So, um, it's just a move I've been working a lot, and the week of the tournament, I was just doing it over and over and over, and then when I went into the match, like, it was, uh... I was able to do it. (laughs)

    3. JR

      Well, it was very sw-... I've seen a lot of back takes, but that was a slick one. That was very slick. You're known for being a guy who trains a ridiculous amount of hours a day.

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      Is... Has that always been the case with you?

    6. MM

      Yeah, um, well, when I was in college, like, obviously, my hours were limited with training-

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      ... but, uh, since I've been out of college, like, I have so much more time now, so I'm just studying jiu-jitsu so many hours and drilling, you know?

    9. JR

      So you... Uh, I heard you twi-... You drill sometimes 12 hours a day.

    10. MM

      Yeah, sometimes I'll end up drilling, like, all day, you know. Um, if I'm studying a move or a position and I wanna find an answer for it, like, sometimes it takes a long time, you know, and, um, the puzzle of it is what makes me so interested in jiu-jitsu.

    11. JR

      Well, that's what's fascinating to me, and it's one of the things that I really like to try to let people know about-

    12. MM

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      ... is that jiu-jitsu, in many people's minds that don't train jiu-jitsu, they think of it as like a... We were talking about it before, like a brutish, very physical-

    14. MM

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      ... aggressive thing, but it's not. It's super technical.

    16. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      It's really intelligent. And people like yourself excel at it, people that become obsessed with it, and then... And just, like, really concentrating and focusing on the finer points of it and drilling until you have something just laser sharp.

    18. MM

      So, I see jujitsu like a math problem. It's so reaction-based. So, you do a position, and your partner will give you a reaction to defend your position. So it's up to you to have an answer to your reac-, uh, to the partner's reaction, right? So every reaction they give, you have to have an answer. So it's so literal like that, you know?

    19. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MM

      And what I love about it, it's the truth. If you could do your position or not is based on that, you know?

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. MM

      So it's just so fascinating to me that... And it never ends, the reactions, or the variables of the person's body. The size of their limbs will alter the position, you know?

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. MM

      So always been so fascinating to me, that, and it never stops, so it keeps my mind every second having to figure out new things.

  7. 12:54 – 16:33

    Reverse-engineering technique and inventing the “Mikey Lock”

    1. JR

      So when you're working a drill, like say if you're try- you're drilling for 12 hours in a day. Are you... Like, say there's a position that maybe you got stuck in or a position where you... Someone defended and you feel like there's a way to get through that. How... What do you do? Do you set up, like, with where your opponent does, like, minimal resistance?

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      Do you set up for them to try to get out of something? Like, how do you, how do you do it?

    4. MM

      So I'll have my partner giving me, like, a lot of resistance, and I have to find the answer, and I'll just keep observing what they're doing. Um, typically what I'll do is I'll even do the reaction myself, defending the move, so I could see what is the strength of it. And then once I find the strength of it, I could figure out how to stop it, you know?

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MM

      And just mechanically, like, um, reverse engineering it.

    7. JR

      Yeah, so you back engineer the move. I saw the Mikey Lock too. That's very interesting. That's a really interesting leg lock.

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      I watched you, uh, demonstrate that, and I was noticing there was a lot of people that were, like, legit black belts that were like, "Oh, shit." Like, "That really works." Like, "There's something to that."

    10. MM

      Yeah. Using your neck instead of your armpit.

    11. JR

      Yeah. It's kinda wild.

    12. MM

      It's just so interesting how in jujitsu, we could alter positions with our body, you know, and just instead... Like, a heel hook, so people understand is using your armpit. So, uh, what I figured out was using my neck instead of my armpit, which is also like a pit-

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MM

      ... and then it's the same efficiency as a heel hook.

    15. JR

      Yeah. And it really works.

    16. MM

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      And you just invented that.

    18. MM

      Yeah. I was training and just figuring out different, uh, ways to control the l- the foot to get to a heel hook, and then people started tapping when I was doing this, and I didn't even know I had a submission. And then I was like, "Oh my God." And then that became a submission. (laughs)

    19. JR

      Wow. That's pretty wild. Have you done that with other moves?

    20. MM

      Um, that's typically how it happens, um. I'll be training, and then I'll subconsciously do something, a movement, and then I'll be like, "What just happened?" And then we'll break down what I did, and then we'll discover positions, you know? It's creativity. Jujitsu is an art, right?

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. MM

      So there's a form of creativity to it, and discovering things in the art.

    23. JR

      It really is an art, and it's an art that is r- v- very much appreciated by people who practice the art. And it's kind of hard for people who don't practice the art-

    24. MM

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      ... to appreciate it, 'cause they don't understand it. When I first started doing commentary for the UFC, one of the biggest challenges was explaining jujitsu in a digestible way. Like, when I would... When the fight would go to the ground, a lot of times people would boo or, like-

    26. MM

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      ... they didn't know what was going on. And so it was my job to try to explain the progression. And like, "Okay, now he's gotta clear the right arm. Now he's in trouble." And then I would, like, talk people through right up until the submission, right up until the person taps. So they would go, "Oh, I see." So it made jujitsu more digestible to them, and more exciting, 'cause they... Instead of just, like, seeing a bunch of legs and arms all-

    28. MM

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      ... tangled up, they got to see what the person was trying to accomplish.

    30. MM

      Yeah. Like, um, even my friends that started jujitsu, they all start, they're like, "Oh, I wanna do UFC or MMA." And then they go to the gym, and they look at the jujitsu stuff, they're like, "No." And they'll do Muay Thai, right? And then they'll just keep seeing the jujitsu class, and then one day they'll try jujitsu one time, and then they switch to just jujitsu, no Muay Thai. (laughs)

  8. 16:33 – 20:39

    MMA curiosity, why grappling-only careers are now viable, and the law school pivot

    1. JR

      Do you have any desire at all to ever fight MMA?

    2. MM

      So I did Muay Thai for seven years as a kid.

    3. JR

      Yeah?

    4. MM

      So I love Muay Thai. I think it's awesome. Um, and I'm in Evolve right now, which has like the best Muay Thai program in the world. So I'm interested in it, you know, and maybe in the future if I keep learning... But again, brain damage sucks.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. MM

      But if I could take minimal damage, I don't know.

    7. JR

      But the problem is, like, can you? Is it possible to take minimal... Now think about running into someone who's as good at striking as you are at jujitsu.

    8. MM

      So you're gonna take a lotta damage. (laughs)

    9. JR

      Yeah, but you know what I'm saying? Like think about-

    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      ... like how much you can control people. Like, I first saw you in Who's Number One. Uh, who was the bald guy? The one-

    12. MM

      Marcelo Colin.

    13. JR

      That's right, Marcelo Colin. And, uh, I made a bet, and I bet on you. It was me and Lex Fridman.

    14. MM

      Oh, yeah.

    15. JR

      Lex Fridman bet on Marcelo, I bet on you, and I won. Ha ha, Lex.

    16. MM

      (laughs)

    17. JR

      But, uh, you, you'd, you... When I was watching your technique, I was like, "This guy is super advanced." Like, "This is really interesting."

    18. MM

      Thank you.

    19. JR

      And you were setting him up, like, the entire time. Like, there was so many times it's almost like you were, like, allowing him to put you back in half guard and moving back to mount. I'm like, "He is, like, setting up something very specific." And then when you had-

    20. MM

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      ... the opportunity for the triangle, you took it.

    22. MM

      Yeah, I'm always baiting my partner to give me certain reactions-

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MM

      ... so I can do the move, you know?

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. MM

      And, um, that's what's so beautiful about jujitsu, how we could set things up and bait them to give us something.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. MM

      You know?

    29. JR

      The problem with you going into MMA is, like, you could find someone who's like that, but with striking.

    30. MM

      Yeah.

  9. 20:39 – 23:49

    Flexibility, appendix emergency, and adjusting training during recovery

    1. JR

      Yeah, you're, you're a fun guy to watch, man. You're very interesting. And the, it's interesting to see what you can do with your body. When we were outside and you were, like, on your-

    2. MM

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      ... heels, just do that on the chair.

    4. MM

      On the chair?

    5. JR

      Just so people can see how ridiculous this is.

    6. MM

      Like, here? (laughs)

    7. JR

      Like, that is crazy that your legs ... For people who don't know, Mikey is sitting, his butt is totally on the ground, and then his heels are totally on the ground, and his heels are beside his legs, so your whole, it doesn't even look physically po-. Like, I tried to get, like, e- even close to that position, my legs, there's no room for that movement in my legs, they don't, they're not gonna go like that.

    8. MM

      Yeah, I think because I've been training jiu jitsu 21 years, my-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. MM

      ... body could just bend in certain ways that, like, it's so natural for my body.

    11. JR

      Yeah. Well, for sure, it's a weird, that's a weird amount of movement that you can do.

    12. MM

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      That has to have come from, I mean, you don't even probably remember your first classes, do you?

    14. MM

      No, it was, I was too young to remember.

    15. JR

      So you've always been doing jiu jitsu, like, as far as your memory goes back?

    16. MM

      P- yeah, 100%.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. MM

      My whole life. Yeah, that's all I know. (laughs)

    19. JR

      So your body has developed and matured while learning jiu jitsu?

    20. MM

      Yeah, so that's why I feel like I'm so bendy and, like-

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MM

      ... it's made for jiu jitsu from all the years, you know?

    23. JR

      You, uh, you, you had surgery fairly recently, right?

    24. MM

      I just had my appendix removed.

    25. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    26. MM

      Yeah, it, out of nowhere, I was training normal, you know, I was doing everything normal and then all of a sudden, I had this sharp pain. And I thought I had a stomach virus, you know, I was in so much pain, and then I was actually with Chatri, and Chatri's like, "No, that's not a stomach virus, that's your appendix," 'cause it was, like, one spot.

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MM

      So we go to the hospital and they said if I went a few hours later, I coulda died.

    29. JR

      Jesus.

    30. MM

      Like, it was pretty intense. (laughs)

  10. 23:49 – 29:33

    Garage training with hobbyists: building reactions, controlling variables, and coaching yourself

    1. JR

      And what is the caliber of training partners over there?

    2. MM

      Uh, the training in Asia is actually really high level, you know. Um, in Vegas where I train, I just train with a hobbyist in my garage. Um, my, the last five years or six years I've been doing that.

    3. JR

      You train with hobbyists?

    4. MM

      Hobbyists only.

    5. JR

      So, meaning just people that are friends?

    6. MM

      Just people that do jujitsu as, like, fun.

    7. JR

      For fun.

    8. MM

      Like, for, like, they get out of work and they train for fun.

    9. JR

      So you haven't been going to a formal school?

    10. MM

      Um, I would represent big teams, but 100% of my training would just be with hobbyists because I like their energy better than competitors.

    11. JR

      Really?

    12. MM

      Um, so if you train with a competitor, they have the vibe of, like, a 9:00 to 5:00 job. Uh, when I train with the hobbyists, they actually wanna be there 'cause they're having fun. So, how I train, I train more like a hobbyist, like my energy.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. MM

      So I prefer being in an environment like that, so I surround myselves with mostly hobbyists.

    15. JR

      Wow. W- I would imagine there's some sort of negative to that, in that you're not, you're not being pressured by elite grapplers.

    16. MM

      But the way that I train, I'm more just teaching everyone around me to give me certain reactions that I need to work on. So I'm more observing. So if I'm having... If I'm doing a position and I feel like something stops it, I'll teach everyone I train with how to stop what I'm doing.

    17. JR

      Mm.

    18. MM

      And then I have to figure out how to fi- uh, solve it again and again and again.

    19. JR

      So, you basically just, uh, piece that all together once you actually get into a match?

    20. MM

      Yep.

    21. JR

      And when... So it's like you're making... You're creating, like, building blocks while you're training?

    22. MM

      Yeah, and I control all the different variables, and I just add different things in.

    23. JR

      Wow. So no major gym where you go there and...

    24. MM

      No.

    25. JR

      And... That's incredible.

    26. MM

      Um-

    27. JR

      So you could easily recreate that in Singapore?

    28. MM

      Tha- I could train anywhere, yeah, exactly.

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. MM

      Uh, the training in Singapore is the same level as, if not higher than, my training in Vegas, so it's sufficient, you know?

  11. 29:33 – 44:17

    Cardio as mental training, avoiding weights, and smart size-matching to prevent injuries

    1. JR

      And you supplement your jujitsu training, you were talk- we were talking about cardio earlier.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      You do a lot of Airdyne bike stuff.

    4. MM

      A lot of Airdyne and running, um, long-distance cardio. I feel like it helps me a lot mentally for competition, um, so I train a lot with, like, the hobbyists and I'll do a lot of cardio. Um, and that's pretty much it.

    5. JR

      How does it, uh, how does the long-distance cardio help you mentally?

    6. MM

      So, what's interesting about running, I- and Airdyne, uh, what I've noticed is the first 10 to 15 minutes, you have that voice in your head that's like, "You're tired. Stop." Like, it fights you.

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. MM

      And you fighting that voice in your head, after 15 minutes, it gets quiet. Like, it goes away. So when you compete, that voice in your head is always there, so it gives you the skill of being able to shut it off when you're fighting-

    9. JR

      Mm.

    10. MM

      ... or competing, 'cause it's jiu jitsu. (laughs)

    11. JR

      Right. And so, like, when you run, you, are you running and having specific things on your mind? Like, are you trying to think about matches and think about competition or are you just trying to breathe and keep moving?

    12. MM

      So, I think the biggest thing about jiu jitsu is control. Being able to control your opponent, but also yourself. So, I feel like mastery of controlling yourself is what I'm trying to do with running.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MM

      And master your thoughts, master all the different variables that I have to deal with when I compete, you know? So I channel that when I'm running, like, as if I was competing.

    15. JR

      And do you incorporate any weight lifting or anything else?

    16. MM

      No.

    17. JR

      Calisthenics? Nothing?

    18. MM

      No. Because, um, I lifted weights a little bit when I was a kid, but as I got older and I got to black belt, I stopped doing that because all the people I'm fighting are so strong and I didn't wanna have to rely on strength with them or to overpower them, so I wanted to make my jiu jitsu where if I don't, it doesn't matter, the strength. It matters your body positioning.

    19. JR

      Right. And do you pl- I mean, you- you've moved around weight classes too, right?

    20. MM

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Like, what do you we- what are you competing at now?

    22. MM

      Right now, I'm competing at 135. Um, I fight 125 in the US, uh, because, uh, you're allowed to cut water. But in the ONE Championship, they test for hydration, so, uh, it's actually healthier, so 135 in ONE.

    23. JR

      And you, but you've gone up as high as, like, what? 155?

    24. MM

      Um, I did open weight in 2020, 20 ... Yeah, 2020 at the EUROs. So I fought those big guys, and, um, it's fun fighting in the heavier division sometimes, just to, like, see, like, how, um ... Just, it desensitizes you to your division-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      ... when you fight the monsters in the heavier divisions, you know?

    27. JR

      Right. Yeah.

    28. MM

      So sometimes I'll do it just so then when I go back to my division, I feel like Superman from fighting those guys. (laughs) You know?

    29. JR

      Do you worry at all about injuries 'cause people are that big?

    30. MM

      Yeah, totally. (laughs)

  12. 44:17 – 56:41

    Pizza-and-pasta OMAD: fasting, performance, protein from cheese, and weight-cut stories

    1. JR

      Right. Right. Right. And then, you know, the, another thing that's really unusual about you is your diet.

    2. MM

      Yes. (laughs)

    3. JR

      You're famous, you're famous for eating pasta and homemade pizza and only eating once a day.

    4. MM

      Every night I eat like this. So how this started was, um, I've been cutting weight and dieting my whole life, right?

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. MM

      And you almost develop an eating disorder from always dieting and cutting weight for so many years of your life, right?

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. MM

      It just naturally happens. So I would binge eat. I would starve. You know what I mean? Like, it was very unhealthy the way I would live.

    9. JR

      How much weight were you cutting?

    10. MM

      Uh, just a- at a young age cutting weight, you know, um, I would always be cutting, like, five pounds, 10 pounds. Nothing crazy, but I've done crazy cuts also, so you just die from those also. But, um, all that time, it just messes up your brain where you never feel like you're satisfied.

    11. JR

      Hmm.

    12. MM

      And, uh, you never full, you know? So that part of your brain that says, "Oh, you're full, stop eating," I stopped having from cutting weight so much.

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. MM

      So what I started doing was intermittent fasting. Um, so I would just not eat during the day, 'cause honestly, I don't like eating before training. I feel bloated when I eat, so I would just eat at night. But I started just eating the foods I love. Um, I'm Italian, so I grew up just eating pizza and pasta.

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MM

      So I make pizza and pasta every night. I have a pizza oven in my house and I roll out the dough, make everything. (laughs) And then, uh, for dessert, I'll eat a pint of acai. And my weight would be lighter doing this diet than eating, like, no carbs and all of these things. So in my mind I was like, "Wait, I could eat all the foods I love if I eat once a day at night?" You know, so it was a no-brainer for me. And my weight is lighter and I feel better 'cause I am fasting, so I started doing it.

    17. JR

      Wow. So there's no issue with performance at all? That, I mean, given your blood sugars and everything like that, when you're training for extraordinary amounts of time during the day and not eating.

    18. MM

      So how I see it is I have to earn the food at night. So training all day is like me working for the food at night, you know?

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. MM

      Like how people used to hunt and gather for food.

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MM

      So, um, that's my mentality. Um, and my best performance in World, Gi Worlds was in December, um, I had my best performance ever, and it was on that diet. And I made 125 easy.

    23. JR

      And so when you do, like, day of competition, same thing? You won't eat all day?

    24. MM

      Day of competition, I'll change my diet and I'll eat a piece of bread and, like, a little honey. Just you need some food in your stomach to deal with the nerves and adrenaline.

    25. JR

      Oh, yeah?

    26. MM

      That changes, for me at least.

    27. JR

      Yeah?

    28. MM

      Um, so I'll-

    29. JR

      So bread and honey, huh?

    30. MM

      Bread, honey, rice cakes. Just very mild, and some sugar. Uh, but nothing too heavy.

  13. 56:41 – 1:31:59

    Recovery tools: infrared vs dry sauna, float tank, and active recovery running

    1. JR

      That def- Now, what about for recovery? Do you, would you do any ice baths or saunas or, like, what kind of stuff do you do for recovery?

    2. MM

      So, I have an infrared sauna in my house. And every night I'll typically go in the infrared sauna, and I feel like that helps my aches in my body so much.

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MM

      Um-

    5. JR

      What temperature do you put it at?

    6. MM

      Like, 140.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      Um, so I go in, like, 30, 40 minutes, and I feel so much better after, like a detox almost.

    9. JR

      Yeah. Um, have you ever gone in a regular dry sauna, like the real hot ones?

    10. MM

      I've gone in dry, I've gone in dry saunas also. I just feel like it's way faster and more impact, like, the intensity of it.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. MM

      But, um, infrared, I feel like, is less impact so I can stay in longer and it's less like you're suffering.

    13. JR

      I wonder what's better for your body overall though, because all the studies that have been done, I think have been done primarily, like the big ones they cite all the time, have been done on a dry sauna. Like, there's one that was done out of Finland that's really fascinating where they found that four times a week, 20 minutes a day at 175 degrees, the people that participated in that had a 40% decrease in all-cause mortality.

    14. MM

      Wow.

    15. JR

      So, that's 40% decrease in heart attacks, strokes, cancer, everything, across the board. Everything.

    16. MM

      That's crazy.

    17. JR

      And it's directly attributable, they believe, to, um, the release of cytokines, these heat shock proteins, from your body being in that intense heat environment.

    18. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      I wonder, like, that intense heat environment though, 175 is very different than 140. Like, you know, the 140, the, in the infrared is tolerable.

    20. MM

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Like, I do 185.

    22. MM

      Oh, wow.

    23. JR

      Yeah. It's not tolerable. I don't enjoy it. Like, especially the last 10 minutes really fucking sucks.

    24. MM

      Like, I could go in for an hour in the 140, watch a movie, you know what I mean? So, um, yeah, I'm curious the benefits of what I'm doing compared to the hotter one.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. MM

      If it's-

    27. JR

      It's, like, I wonder if it's like sprinting versus, like, a long cardio session.

    28. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JR

      Like, long cardio, like, base level, like, uh, you know, structured cardio is, like, very important to have, like, this, this very strong base of cardio, where, you know, you always are going to recover quicker. Like, that's one of the real benefits of guys who run, like, six, eight, 10 miles. Like, a lot of MMA guys are finding that out now, that they, they have this extra gear by putting in those long cardio runs, these long cardio sessions multiple times a week, as opposed to just exploding.

    30. MM

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:03:12

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