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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #138 with Cory Sandhagen

Joe is joined by Cory Sandhagen, a professional mixed martial artist competing in the UFC's Bantamweight division.

Joe RoganhostCory SandhagenguestGuest (fighter demonstrating gloves)guest
Jun 27, 20242h 43mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:15

    Intro

    1. JR

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Mr. Sam Hangman, how are you?

    4. CS

      I'm good. How are you guys?

    5. JR

      You're on top of the world right now, dude.

    6. CS

      I'm a pretty happy guy right now.

    7. JR

      Woo.

    8. CS

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      What a fight that was.

    10. CS

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      What a fight. That was i- in my opinion, one of the most technical and one of the, like, the finest performances in that division, that 135-pound division, to have a guy like you and Marlon go after it like that. That was a fucking great fight.

    12. CS

      Thank you.

    13. JR

      Really great fight. And you're, you're like on top of it right now, man. It's really exciting to watch.

    14. CS

      Yeah. Um, I'm getting pretty good. (laughs) You know?

    15. JR

      (laughs) Yeah, for real.

    16. CS

      Like, uh, I've, I've really been just plugging up some holes, like figuring some, some stuff out. I feel like, uh, I'm at the part in the martial arts journey where I've gotten really good at being a really good learner. Like I can learn super fast and super efficiently now. Um, and it's like big time paying off. Like not only that, but I also ... The space I was in before that Cheeto fight was, uh, unlike one that I feel like I've ever been in in my life.

    17. JR

      How so?

    18. CS

      You know, uh, have you read like a decent amount of sports psych books?

    19. JR

      Yes.

    20. CS

      Where, where they'll sometimes talk about how you're almost having this out-of-body experience-

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CS

      ... where you're ha- where you're almost like, uh, floating above the court or the field or whatever? It was almost like that, except I wouldn't use the word like floating above. But I got to a space in that fight where, um, I felt like all of the thoughts and all of the distracting things that sometimes happen in a fight were completely ignored, and this like higher being, better version, like best no thinker just actor was running the show. Like it's almost like I was watching the thing happen while I was in the fight, and there would be bits of me hopping in and being like, "Hey, throw this combination. Hey, take a little bit more of a risk. Hey, do this," and then that would get completely just watched and this whoever was fighting that night that didn't even feel like me was the person that was fighting. It was fucking cool, man.

    23. JR

      Wow.

  2. 2:15 – 4:43

    Mindset

    1. JR

    2. CS

      It was cool, dude. It was like, you know, like a psychedelic experience feeling type of thing.

    3. JR

      Really?

    4. CS

      It was cool.

    5. JR

      What do you attribute that to? How d- how did you get to that mindset?

    6. CS

      It's a lot of, uh, you know, messing stuff up. Like I remember the last time I was on was right after I had beaten Frankie, and, uh, I was in ... It's just a bunch of different parts of the journey, and, and, uh, in that part of the journey, I was really in the space where if I could make myself more war, if I could make myself more angry, if I could make, make myself be up here, I would have success. That kind of stopped working a little bit after, uh, like around the TJ fight and then kind of during the Yan fight, and then definitely I tried to be that guy against Song, and it was like too much of a distracting feeling, where now my mindset's going into the last fight because it was such like a distracting feeling, just feeling like I have to get myself to a point of anger or upness before a fight where it, it, it just be- became distracting, where it was helpful before, it became distracting in that Song fight. I bailed on that, and I just tried to be as mindful and as present as I possibly could, um, for like... And I know that those are like kind of corny words now, but, uh, there is some real substance to them, uh, when, when they're like really done well. And I would say maybe about six weeks before the fight, I, I had this moment where I was sitting on the couch because I put a lot of pressure on myself, and I, I, uh, I want to be a world champ real bad, um, where I was to the point where I wasn't enjoying any part of the camp, any part of the experience of fighting or anything. And I was sitting on the couch and I just like ... I, I think I was crying a little bit, and I was like, "I can't fucking do this for the next five years of my life," you know. Like, "I can't do this for the rest of my career." And I was like, "Well, what's gotta change?" And I was like, "I gotta lose ... I gotta take this pressure off of me, and I gotta start enjoying every day a lot more than I am right now." And from that like six weeks before the fight, I started doing that, and I really think that that carried into the fight, and it made me be a lot less tense, a lot less tight, and it made me be able to fight with just like a completely free way of being.

    7. JR

      Wow.

  3. 4:43 – 6:05

    Self Learning

    1. JR

    2. CS

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      And is this something that you had previously thought that you could get to that space or wanted to get to that space? Or is this something that you kind of experimented along the way and found this path?

    4. CS

      I'm a self learner, uh, and, and I think that, uh ... I think that there's ways of being in life that, like, you just kinda have to be at certain times. Like when you're a young kid, like you have to be like going and hitting it hard. Like you have to remember all of the hundreds of thousands of people on the other half of the world that are trying to accomplish the same goal as you. And you have to be a little bit, in my opinion, you have to be a little bit on the neurotic side of like, "Am I doing every single thing correct? Am I doing ... Uh, am I putting the right amount of pressure on me?" That, that's totally a part of the journey, but I'm kinda more in the part of the journey where I've matured a lot as a fighter. I've matured a lot as a person. I'm getting married this year. Like I'm, I'm a little bit older. We're looking at kids probably in the next couple years. And so I had to start thinking like, "What's sustainable?" Like what's like a sustainable way to continue doing what I love but also becoming like a more mature adult? Um, and that's just part of the journey that I'm in right now, and, uh, I don't think that anything was wrong with the way that I was doing before. But-... it just is like a moving target all the time, you know.

    5. JR

      So, it's like

  4. 6:05 – 8:09

    War Mentality

    1. JR

      you're just finding new ways to approach it and then realizing this way is better than the other way, even though the other way was effective, this is even more effective, so you're constantly trying to tweak it?

    2. CS

      Yeah. And I- and I think that, uh, everything kind of has its purpose. Like, uh, in those times where I would- I- I was, uh, really embracing this, like, war mentality, this, like, very, like, bloodthirsty, vicious type of fighter that I was trying to be when I would go into the cage, that totally had its place because I had to experience what I f- what I thought that had to feel like in order for me to be the best martial artist that I can. Because I do feel like I've pointed all of my energy in my life and my mind and my spirit and everything towards the direction of being the best martial artist that I can be. And so, going through that had its purpose, man. Like, I- I had to figure out what it was like for me to be, like, a vicious killer, you know, because in society that's, like, not cool, you know?

    3. JR

      Right.

    4. CS

      So, like, almost like a- the shadow self or whatever, uh, is, like, the subconscious term for it. Um, I had to, like, experience that. I experienced it. I figured out that it was no longer serving me, it was being distracting, so what do I need to do now? Now, it's like, "Okay, you figured that part out. You can be that guy whenever you wanna be that guy, but now we're being present, now we're enjoying it. And you don't really need to be that guy until you walk into the cage. And even when you do walk into the cage, you don't need to be this, like, really dramatic, super-emphasized, like, vicious guy. Like, be that guy, but you don't have to overdo it." And- and when you're learning something, I almost feel like you have to completely overdo it in order to learn, like, where that cutoff is. Like-

    5. JR

      Hmm.

    6. CS

      ... even in technique. Like, if you could do a armbar and win every single time with an armbar, why would you ever stop doing armbars?

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. CS

      It'd be stupid. So, like, you figure out how to, like, do something, way overdo it, figure out where the cutoff is and be like, "Oh, okay, I can't do it in, like, those situations." You pull back, you figure out what situations you need to do it in, and then you move forward.

  5. 8:09 – 11:06

    Losing Headphones

    1. CS

    2. JR

      What was dis- what hap- what happened? I lost... Can you hear me? My, uh, headphones cut out. Hold on. Check, check, check. Check, check, check. Something happen over here, Jamie? I don't know what's going on, but, uh, I lost the, uh, headphones. We'll be right back, folks.

    3. CS

      (laughs)

    4. JR

      Sorry about that.

    5. CS

      No, that's okay.

    6. JR

      So- so what- where- where were we at? Um, so what was it about the other way you were approaching it, where, you know, last time you were here, you had just embraced this idea that you went in there with the intention to fuck people up? What was distracting about that?

    7. CS

      It's- it's, like, um, it's like a hot, burning flame. You know, like, uh, I- I feel like it- it's- I can only hold onto it for so long. Like, I can't really, uh... Like, it's a lotta energy to be that up. And so, when I would be in the back getting warmed up, because you kinda- you don't know exactly when you're gonna walk, so I try to be ready, you know, like, 20 minutes before. I'd spend, like, 30, 40 minutes warming up, trying to be that guy, and then, for 20 minutes, trying to sustain that guy, and that's, like, a long time to be that up. You know? So-

    8. JR

      Hmm.

    9. CS

      ... even in the f- in this fight, uh, because there's no preparing for that last hour before you go walk. Like, I don't care what type of guy you are or how zen you can be or how confident you are, that- that last hour before a fight, like, your mind's gonna fuck with you a lot. And it's gonna go to you thinking that you're the god of the universe to you thinking that, like, you're about to go get slaughtered. And, uh, in the back, before, if I started to feel like I was, you know, having those, like, impulsive thoughts of, like, fear or you're about to go get slaughtered, I'd try to just cover that shit up real quick by getting, like, real pissed. Um, and that's, like, a lotta energy to do. So, before the Cheeto fight, I was super proud of the way that I was able to handle those feelings, because those feelings are, like, real as hell when you're in the back. And-

    10. JR

      How do you handle 'em?

    11. CS

      Well, I just watched them, man. Like, uh, I just realized, like, "Oh, okay. Like, I'm having- I'm having this sense of fear in me." And I would just kinda sit there and be like, "Okay, well, I'm not really fighting right now, so just let the fear be there. Right now, your job is to get warmed up." And so I just took it, "Okay, right now I'm getting warmed up. Okay, they said 10 more minutes till we walk. Okay, I'm having this sense of fear still. That's okay. I'm still in the back." And then, step, by step, by step, "Okay, I'm- I'm- I'm walking out now. Cool. Okay. Looking across from him. Okay. Touch gloves, now we're fighting." It's literally just- it sounds super fucking simple, but it's just step, by step, by step, man. Just like, "Okay, I'm having that sense. I'll just watch that and not really ackno-" I mean, not- you acknowledge it, but you don't- I- I didn't- I don't try to cover it up or I don't try to, like, be someone else. I just kinda watch it as if it was just someone else, it- it happening to someone else, and then just move on.

    12. JR

      It doesn't

  6. 11:06 – 15:10

    Riding a Wild Wave

    1. JR

      sound super simple at all.

    2. CS

      Hmm.

    3. JR

      Uh, uh, not to me, at least. It's- I know what you're saying, and that feeling has gotta be like riding a wild wave. Like, you just gotta maintain your balance. And to watch you go into that fight, what was so impressive, um, besides the fact that you're fighting a world-class guy in Marlon Vera and you were- you were controlling the action, was the overwhelming, like, the amount of information you were throwing at him. You were constantly changing levels, constantly threatening takedowns, constantly switching stances, and everything was- you know, there's- fighters kind of- sometimes they'll fall into a pattern, and you can kinda predict that pattern. There was no pattern with you.

    4. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      It was all over the place. And it was so overwhelming. When I was watching, I was like, "Jesus Christ. Like, this is so high level." And I don't- I mean, for, like, a casual...I don't know if they're seeing that, but for someone who watches a lot of fights and has been around martial arts, you know, my whole life, when I was watching, I was like, "This is about as high level as it gets."

    6. CS

      Thank you.

    7. JR

      Like, you were mixing shit up so well. Like, the way you were choosing your attacks, whether it was the low kick or whether it was punches and the switch stance to punches, the, the, the shot, it was amazing, man. It was really fucking good. It was really fun to watch, because it wasn't just that you were doing that, but you were doing that for five fucking rounds. Like, you never varied, you never slowed down, there was never, like, breathers. It was just a full-on assault of all his, uh, of his reactions and all of his, uh, his, you know, ability to read you. It was like, attack, bang, hit there, okay, try to settle, boom, this is coming in. Now there's a shot. It was like there was no ... There was no breaks.

    8. CS

      Yeah. It was pretty awesome, man. Like, uh ...

    9. JR

      It was pretty fucking wild.

    10. CS

      Yeah, it was pretty wild. Uh, I think that that's always gonna be one of my stronger points, is that I can make decisions a lot faster than other people. Um, I, I honestly think that that's what makes good people from great people. Because good people can do ... They can make the right decisions and continue to make them, continue to make them, continue to make them, but, uh, at some point, the person that's better at doing those things is going to surpass that person eventually.

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CS

      It might not happen early, uh, uh, you know, like it could take some time, and against some of the best guys in the world, it's gonna take some time. But eventually, your processing speed will outpower theirs, you know ? And I think that I do that really, really well. I think that, um, my training has a lot to do with that too.

    13. JR

      What is different about your training?

    14. CS

      Um, so all of the conditioning that I do, or almost li- ... The, the conditioning parts that I take really seriously, um, are the sparring days. Uh, I used to, like, hit mitts real hard, and I still do, like, a strength and conditioning workout once a week, um, that's like, you know, 30 seconds, 30 seconds, 30 seconds, minute rest, you know, stuff like that. But, um, there's no getting tired like there is getting tired in sparring. So I'll do ... If I ... I usually do 10-week camps. The first week, I just knock the rust off, you know ? And then I do two seven weeks or two seven-round weeks, so we spar Tuesday, Fridays. I do seven rounds those days, and then the next two weeks, I do eight rounds both of those days, and then I'll do, like, six, and then the rest of them five, 'cause I want to get used to five. But in those seven-round weeks, in those eight-round weeks, those are hard as fuck, man. Like, I get ... Like, I try to get so tired, where I'm just like, "I can't ... I don't feel like I can make decisions anymore." And I really think that having the concentration to focus for those 40 minutes makes it way easier for me to focus in the 25 minutes, you know? Like, uh ...

    15. JR

      Mm.

    16. CS

      It's, uh ... You know, I don't really know if that's science or not, but I definitely think that if I can stay focused for 40 minutes, 25 minutes will feel like nothing. So I re- like, really push myself there.

    17. JR

      And is this

  7. 15:10 – 16:43

    Over Trial and Error

    1. JR

      a, a, a strategy, or is this a, a program that you've just developed over trial and error?

    2. CS

      Yeah. I make my own shit up, pretty much, you know?

    3. JR

      Really?

    4. CS

      Uh, pretty much. You know, like I, I, uh ... So, Cristian Allen was my coach. He's like the guy with always the crazy haircut-

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CS

      ... kind of built like me. Um, Cristian Allen has always been my coach. Uh, and he's an interesting guy. Like, he ... Uh, a lot of his philosophies are really traditional martial arts philosophy. Like, he turned me on to a lot of really ... Um, like people like Bruce Lee, of course, like Krishna Marti, uh, like just, like, free, free thinkers. So he always instilled in me this, uh ... A- and tried to empower this ability inside me to think for myself, because I think that a lot of people don't really do that in the sport, to be honest with you. I think that a lot of them get their hand held by their coaches, which is totally one way to do it, and honestly, a lot of people do need that. But, uh, I, I was never taught to be that way. I was taught to be the quarterback of my own game, uh, not like someone that takes orders. He instilled that in me big time. So I kind of ... I tweak things and handle a lot of the way that I do things in camp by myself. I, of course, have people around me that I know love me a lot and care about me enough to tell me what they think I should do, and I have ... And I will listen to them if I, if I think that they're right. But a lot of it is, like, me just kind of being like a lone wolf in life and in martial arts a little bit and me just figuring stuff out myself.

  8. 16:43 – 20:01

    Bruce Lee Quote

    1. CS

    2. JR

      So do you think that's because ... Well, obviously, nobody knows you better than you, and you're absorbing all these techniques from all these different people and all these strategies from these different coaches. But ultimately, it's up to you to execute with your mind and your body, and so you've just decided the best way to do that is to absorb all this information, but even maybe more important, do it yourself.

    3. CS

      Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, what's the Bruce Lee quote? It's like, uh, "Accept what's useful, discard what's not useful, and then make it your own," or whatever it is.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. CS

      Um, that's, like, martial arts, you know ? Like-

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. CS

      That's what Cristian taught me from when I first started when I was 17 years old. And, uh, and I think it's the way to do it, man. Like, I, I really do. Like, I, I ... When I think about other sports and how they compare, I don't think ... Li- like, at the very highest level when I watch interviews of, like, Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan or, like, uh, Tom Brady and all of those guys, those guys are interacting with their coaches much differently than a lot of the other players and coaches will interact with, with, with, with each other, where it's not, um ... The coach isn't telling the, the player what to do. The coach and the player are interacting, I think, when you get to a certain level. Uh, and me and my coaches kind of ... Sometimes we'll get into it, you know ? Like, I'll be like, "Hey, man," like, "I-"... I don't think that that's, like, a reliable way to go about doing things because I think building ... Like, I use the word reliable a lot, like, when I'm coaching people because you don't want, you don't want tricks. You know, like, tricks are okay. You want things that are reliable. And, uh, so that's, like, what I shoot for when I'm trying to, like, learn techniques and learn different things is it's, like, is this reliable or is this k- kind of like a tricky thing that, like, will sometimes work. Uh, and I always shoot for reliable. Um, so I'll get into it with my coaches sometimes, like, "Hey, banks, like, I don't know if that's that reliable." You know?

    8. JR

      Can you give me an example of something that's-

    9. CS

      Sure.

    10. JR

      ... not that reliable?

    11. CS

      Sure, sure. Uh, let's say like a, like a low single, you know? Or, like, a, uh, um ... I, I think it, I think, honestly, it happens a lot more in striking because I think that because there's ... Because people really don't understand the inner workings of how striking works, people want to use tricks, and tricks will work a lot until you get someone that, like, catches onto your shit. So, like, I think, like, let's say, just for example, in striking, like, uh, any combination really. Like, that's kind of more ... and it's not a trick, but it's, uh, it's a set thing where things have to go really right in order for it to work 100% of the time. Um, and I don't really think that that's the approach that you should take in striking. I think that the approach to striking should be reliable things. It should address space, it should address position, and it should, like, address angles, and that, like, those are, like, the three areas of striking and the inner workings of striking that don't really get talked about because a lot of it is taught in, uh, in a very tricky way because tricks are very digestible for people, um, where the inner workings of things are very, like, conceptual and hard to understand.

    12. JR

      (laughs) What

  9. 20:01 – 23:18

    Most people dont understand striking

    1. JR

      do you th- when you say that most people don't understand striking, like, what do you mean by that?

    2. CS

      Okay. So, I think that there's, uh, there's things that are happening in striking matches that are, like I said, not very digestible. So, like I said, so there's space, there's position, and then there's your advantages. Space is, is like a ... And I- and I hear people talk about, like, rhythm all the time, you know? Rhythm is just closing space, going away from space, closing space, going away from space. Space is key because striking happens with your eyes. Striking is like we're playing this game, like, "Hey, hit my hand," and I'm moving it around. You know? That's, like, why switching stances works so well, and we can get into that in a little bit. But space is your reaction time because striking happens with your eyes. Instead of grappling, like if someone's leaning into me, I- I have, like, the proprioception to feel they're leaning into me, let me move like this. It doesn't happen with your eyes. In striking, it happens with your eyes. I see your punch is coming. I know to block. So the more space I have and the better I can maintain and control space or manipulate space by closing it quickly or, or using it at the same time you close, I close, where I could be twice as fast, um, the more, the more success I'm- I'm going to have. Um, uh, so for example, like, um, I- I- I just don't think that people are understanding space in a way where it's like it is your, like, reaction time. So if you get closer to ... Like, if you're standing over there and I'm standing here, it's not scary if you throw a punch at me because I have plenty of time to react to that punch. Where if me and you are standing right next to each other, that's, like, super scary no matter who you are. You know? Um, so space is reaction time, and I really don't think that a lot of people see space like that. They see space like, "Oh, yeah. Like, you're at the end of my jab. That's when I can hit you." Everything is about, like, "Can I hit you?" This and that. Uh, where, like, the defensive piece of striking isn't really harped on as much because, again, it's, like, not as digestible. Um, and then there's, of course, like, position. Like, my position and then your position. My position according to your position, so, like, lefty/righty, righty/lefty, lefty/lefty, righty/righty. Um, and all of that is important because if you're in a different stance than I am, the targets change. Like, what you throw is different than ... Like, like, the attacks that you'll have are very different than the ones that we would have if we were in the same stance, if we're in the opposite stance. I don't think that people necessarily pick up on those things too. I don't think people super understand position as, like, my guard. Like, where am I open if I stand like this and where am I open if I stand like this? Um, the advantages, like, being a little bit outside your shoulders on each side so that I can take angles a little bit easier. If I'm standing over here, I know you're gonna correct yourself here, so I'm gonna step here. You're gonna correct, I'm gonna step here, and then eventually I'll be able to build off of attacks. But that, to me, is what striking is. Striking isn't ... It- it's a positional battle, and it's a battle for space. And it's not, like, combinations, and it's not set things.

    3. JR

      Not set things. Yeah.

  10. 23:18 – 25:47

    Switching stances

    1. JR

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      So, what ... Your, your style is very, uh, stance switch dependent. You, you mean, you- you do that as good as anybody alive. And it's such a valuable asset, and it's ... More fighters are embracing that now than ever before. But e- there's something about that, if you, if you're accustomed, like if you're accustomed to standing southpaw or you- you're accustomed to standing orthodox and you're accustomed to facing fighters that are styles power orthodox, you get, like, used to attacks coming from different places. But when you're doing it, you're- you're mixing shit up so much that you can see this overwhelming thing that's happening to the opponent. You could see, like ... Like one of the things Chito said, he ne- he couldn't get started. But- but the reason why he couldn't get started, in my opinion, he's a great fighter, but it was you-... is because you were constantly feeding him with reads and information, and it- it was never ending.

    4. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      So, there was no break where he gets to find his openings, no break where he gets to initiate. It was just overwhelming.

    6. CS

      Yeah, super overwhelming. That- that- that's what that can do, uh, because like I said, you read it with your eyes. So, if I'm switching my stance all the'time, the target is changing all the time. Like, if- if you're in a righty stance, and I'm in a righty stance also, the targets are different. Like, your right kick is gonna land on my out- the outside of my leg. If I switch lefty, it's gonna kick to the inside of my leg. I know that you know this. But, um, if I'm constantly switching those targets all the time, it makes for a hell of a f- a- a hell of a time for you, you know? And, uh, I started switching really, really early. Uh, I used to really like watching Nanido Donaire-

    7. JR

      Hmm.

    8. CS

      ... uh, the boxer, like-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. CS

      And he sw- he kind of switches a lot, like a lot of his steps are switches. I used to love watching Nanido Donaire. I thought he was super creative and, uh, all- all- like, switching stances now at this point, I think, in m- martial arts is almost like a non-negotiable.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. CS

      Like, you- you have to be able to do it. Um, but it just changes the target. It changes my weapons, like, so much, where like if you can't keep up, it's just gonna like fry your brain.

    13. JR

      Hmm.

    14. CS

      And I felt that with Chito, you know? I- I felt like, uh, any time he started to understand my movements, I would just change, or I would start level changing, or I would start doing something different so that he couldn't get an opportunity to be like, "That's what I need to do," 'cause then I would just change it, and then he'd have to figure out something else.

  11. 25:47 – 27:38

    Mental game

    1. CS

    2. JR

      One of the things that was fascinating about that fight to me is that it's so obvious that even though you have physical skills, and he has physical still- skills, it was your mind, it was strategy, and it was execution. There was- there was a lot going on there that was important to you winning that fight, and it wasn't just your physical ability. It was- it was really like the best example of what I love about MMA, which is that it's high-level problem-solving. And you were creating all these problems, and he didn't have answers to some of them, and you had answers to his problems. And that's a mental game, and that- that's, to me, what's so fascinating about fighting, and for the- that people don't understand from the outside that are just casual fans. It's like this is a complex interaction between two people that move very fast, and any error that you make one way or another, running into a right hand, running into a knee, running into this, and- and you're really good at setting people up for that. Like, the Frankie fight's a great example of that.

    3. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JR

      That, to me, is what's exciting about MMA. And so, when I see a guy like you that I clearly see, like, "Oh, this motherfucker's on another level."

    5. CS

      Mm.

    6. JR

      Like, you hit something, like whatever it is, like were you talking about this mindset change, or it's just this stacking upon skills and layers and experience till you get to this championship form, when there's- there's a really exciting time when a fighter comes into that championship form, and that's what I saw in that fight.

    7. CS

      I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. Um, yeah. I- I don't really know what it is either. I- I think that I've definitely, uh, just matured a- matured a lot as a fighter. I think that that's like a big piece of it too. Uh, I took a lot of pressure off my shoulders. I'm like a phenomenal learner, to be honest. Like, if- if I do toot- toot my own horn, I think that that's something that I'm really good at.

    8. JR

      Is that because

  12. 27:38 – 29:21

    Being thoughtful

    1. JR

      you're open, because you're obsessed? Is it because-

    2. CS

      I'm obsessed.

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. CS

      I'm very thoughtful. Um, I- I don't think I'm smart guy. Like, uh, I think that I read a lot of books, so I speak kinda okay. And then, uh, but I'm not smart. Like, uh, they- in first grade, they used to take me into another room to, like, learn how to read, you know?

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. CS

      And I used to have to, like, ask my mom, like, "Hey, like, why do I read it- like, different books than the other kids, you know?" (laughs)

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. CS

      Uh, so I'm not a smart guy. Like, I- I- I never did good in school. Um, but I'm thoughtful. And, uh, you could use the word obsessed too, but I think I'm incredibly thoughtful about the way that I'm going about doing things, like in life, in fighting. I try to be super, super intentional. I try- like, I make notes. Every Monday and Saturday, I make notes. On Monday, I make notes of the things that I'm working on, uh, you know, like a to-do list, like sometimes how I'm doing, all of that stuff. But I'm super organized in the way that I'm, like, trying to learn and the things that I'm trying to, like, progress in, whether they're technical things, uh, mental things, or whatever, and then I recap all of those things on Saturday, made sure that I did them, and then I wrote down- I write down what worked, what didn't work, what I need to continue to drill, what I- what I should pull back on because I don't think it's really worth the time because there are so many techniques and some things just aren't worth the time, uh, at- at certain points, you know?

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. CS

      So, uh, I'm super thoughtful, I'm super organized, and I think that that's like probably one thing that separates me, is because I, like, uh, everyone wants it kind of the same. Everyone's a really good athlete. Everyone works really hard physically. Um, but like there's gotta be some X factors. Like, it has to be everything if you- if you really wanna, like, be a world champ, like I say that I wanna be.

  13. 29:21 – 32:17

    Wayne Ludwig

    1. CS

    2. JR

      When did you start doing this note-taking thing?

    3. CS

      Uh, d- uh (snaps fingers) , probably seven or eight years ago. Um, seven or eight years ago is when I started working with my sports psychologist. Uh, he kinda turned me onto it. I also used to train a lot with Duane too, and Duane would, like, always be writing stuff down.

    4. JR

      Duane Ludwig, he's obsessed.

    5. CS

      Yeah. Yeah, Duane's super obsessed too. Uh-

    6. JR

      That guy's an amazing coach.

    7. CS

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      He really is.

    9. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      It's- it's- when you look at his system, when he's got his- his Bang Muay Thai System, and he brought out his notebook, and he showed me all this, I'm like, "Jesus Christ, who the fuck does this?"

    11. CS

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      When you look at all of his combinations, and what sets what up, and the way he has it, like I was very impressed with that.

    13. CS

      It- that- that's, like, the thoughtfulness that I'm talking about.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. CS

      You know? Like, uh, that's, like, just a different level of caring and, like, a different way of showing that you care, is just like- like, I do that too, you know? Like I- I write down, like, how striking works. Uh, I'm hopefully gonna be filming some instructionals pretty soon, so I've really been, like, spending hours and hours and hours writing down, like, how I think striking actually works outside of the way that it's being taught now.

    16. JR

      Hmm.So when you are in the process of a camp, when you set out a camp and you- you're doing this 10-week program, do- do you have everything planned out, like, from the moment the camp starts?

    17. CS

      More or less.

    18. JR

      And is it mostly you that's planning everything out?

    19. CS

      Yes. Um.

    20. JR

      Really?

    21. CS

      Yeah. Uh, that's like me being the quarterback, you know. Like, uh, I take full responsibility for everything that I do in life, you know. Like, uh, if- if I'm not getting takedowns, it's not my wrestling coach's fault. It's my own fault because I- I know I'm being taught correct things. Um, I've surrounded myself with good people that are teaching me the right things, so I don't ever worry about, like, not being taught the right things. If- if I don't get good at something, I, like, almost feel pathetic because I'm like, "Man, this guy's..." Uh, like with the wrestling, uh, like, if Banks has to tell me something week by week by week, I start to feel, like, pathetic. I'm like, "Why am I not getting better at this," you know? Um, so I take responsibility for every single thing. That way, there's no one for me to blame except for myself if I lose. Um, and that's another thing that I don't know that a lot of people are doing too. That also causes me to, like, get into it with some people sometimes too, which is fine also, you know, because they know I love them and they know- and I know that they love me. So it's not really, like, a big deal when we do get into it. But I- I write down, yeah, week by week what I'm doing, what my Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday looks like, when I'm doing my visualizations. Uh, I- I incorporate, like, a decent amount of self-hypnosis-type things that I like doing too. Uh, I- I write down when I'm doing that. I write down when I'm flying training partners in, when I'm going out to Virginia to train with Ryan. Um, yeah, pretty- it's pretty much, like, to the- to the T written out.

  14. 32:17 – 33:21

    Hypnosis

    1. CS

    2. JR

      When you say self-hypnosis, like, what- what are you doing there?

    3. CS

      Uh, they're like, um... So a lot of them, so this dude Michael Sealy on YouTube does them. Uh, they're just like 50 to, like, an hour and 15 minute, uh, hypnoseses where they, like, calm you down for, like, the first 15, 20 minutes. They try to get you super present. And then I enjoy, there's all different kinds of them, but I like en- I- I enjoy doing the ones where, um, they, like, almost walk you through, like, finding your spirit animal or, like, uh, going on a astral travel or something like this. I- I think that there's a lot of substance to getting to a really calm place and then letting your imagination kind of, like, feed you what's kind of going on deeper inside of you. Um, and, uh, I do a decent amount of those, which sounds a little bit funky and a little bit weird, but I've had some super intense, uh, experiences by just literally laying there, put my headphones in, and listening to this dude talk on YouTube.

    4. JR

      Well,

  15. 33:21 – 36:06

    Bantamweight Division

    1. JR

      I'd imagine that's... I feel like when you're at your level, and one of the things that's exciting about what's going on right now in the bantamweight division is that there's so much talent.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      It might be the most talent-stacked division in the UFC. It's hard to say because 55 is great, 45 is great. There's a lot of amazing divisions. But for my money, I think 35 might be the motherfucker because there's just so many guys. There's Merab. There's Petr. There's Marlon. There's you. There's Aljamain. There's Cejudo's in there now. And there's all these guys coming up too that are super high level. Chris Gutierrez. There's- there's some fucking killers. And everyone recognizes that the level is so high in that division, and they see a fight like your fight with Marlon or Merab's fight with Petr, and you, it's like, "Jesus Christ, man, if you wanna compete in that division, you gotta have everything right." You have to dot your Is and cross your Ts. You gotta get that fucking exact amount of re- you gotta do everything.

    4. CS

      Hell yeah.

    5. JR

      Everything.

    6. CS

      Yep.

    7. JR

      This is just the most insane pressure cooker that I think any division has ever had because I feel like there's, like, eight world champions competing for the number one spot. Any one of these guys could be a world champion, any one of these guys, and in another time period would be a world champion. But because of what's happening in MMA right now, because the skill sets are so high and the talent level is so high, that everyone's recognizing that. You're seeing these fucking insane breakthrough performances, like, every time from these guys, like Merab versus Petr, like you versus Marlon. These breakthrough performances are just, like, where everybody else is like, "Goddamn, gotta go back to work," because it's just so pressure-intensive.

    8. CS

      I know. It's- it's actually really awesome. Uh, like, I- I reflect on that sometimes, where I'm like, "Damn, man. Like, you're in the hottest division in the biggest organization in, like, the most badass sport right now."

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. CS

      And- and that's fucking cool, man. Like, uh, when I reflect on that, it's awesome. And- and it also is like, it- it's literally gonna bring out, it has to bring out the best in me for the next rest of my career. Like, it's absolutely has to. Like, it's not one of those divisions where it's like, "I'm gonna beat that guy. I'm gonna beat that guy." Eh, like, literally all the way up and, like, past the, outside the top 15, I'm like, "Man, if you're not on your Ps and Qs and you're not working your ass off like you were a 21-year-old kid, you're gonna be fucked."

    11. JR

      You're gonna be fucked.

    12. CS

      You're not... And so, like, uh, that, I- I wouldn't have it any other way, man. Like, that's what's gonna bring out the best in me, and I'm, like, super just grateful that I get to be a part of it while it's actually happening. It's kind of, like, feels surreal that that's the scenario.

  16. 36:06 – 38:59

    Golden Age of MMA

    1. CS

    2. JR

      That- it's awesome.

    3. CS

      It is.

    4. JR

      It's awesome that you're embracing it like that because it's awesome for me as a fan to watch this happen, because I think it's very unique. I think it's very special. It's like, you remember back in, like, there was a Showtime documentary on the golden age of, like, when Hagler was fighting Leonard and- and Hearns was fighting Duran and Duran was fighting Hagler, and these guys, they all fed off of each other. But it was only a few of them.

    5. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      Like, with the UFC right now, it's a goddamn carnival.

    7. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JR

      I mean, there's- there's a fucking massive crowd of assassins that are all competing. And you'll see these new bantamweights that come into the UFC, and, you know, they might have 16, 17 fights outside the organization. And then you'll see them in their debut. You're like, "Jesus Christ, this guy's world-class, world-class already, first fight in the UFC."I mean, that, that to me is so exciting because this sport is the only sport that you could really name, that if you go back to 1993 and you look at it from 2023, you're looking at a massive evolution in the game.

    9. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      Massive.

    11. CS

      Massive.

    12. JR

      I mean, not even comparable. There's not a single person from 1993 that looks like they're a world champion in 2023. But if you go back to 1993 in boxing, you got a lot of world champions. You got Oscar De La Hoya, Julio Cesar Chavez, you got fucking assassins who can compete in any division or in any, uh, rather era, at any time in boxing. You don't have that in the UFC. You have this c- complete new kind of thing that's emerging and evolving, and it, you're seeing these top performers that are just reaching total new heights.

    13. CS

      Yeah. It's, it's cool. It's like, uh, it's in like that period of, like, history where, uh... So I'm sure that all the sports went through this but, like, wrestling is pretty standard, you know, like, uh, there, there are certain things that work really, really well. And of course, like, people go outside the box sometimes but there's, like, a proven system of, like, what works, where I feel like in MMA, we're not at that point yet, you know? Like-

    14. JR

      Hmm.

    15. CS

      ... we're kind of like, we're all in this, like, discovery, like-

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. CS

      ... who's gonna figure out how to make this thing work the best, you know? Like that's-

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CS

      ... almost what I feel like the race is right now.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. CS

      Where the race is like, like I said man, everyone works hard, everyone's pretty athletic, you know? Like everyone kind of has, like, their little quirks and, like, the ways that they do things or whatever, but who's gonna figure out how to be, like, the best system of MMA? Because every other sport, I feel like, has done that. That's, like, why most soccer games look like all the other soccer games.

    22. JR

      Yeah.

    23. CS

      But in fighting, not all the fights look like the same fights. And I think that that's just because it's in this, like, realm of just full-blown creativity, which is-

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CS

      ... because we're just trying to figure out, like, who's gonna get the best system first, you know?

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. CS

      It's pretty

  17. 38:59 – 40:28

    Creativity

    1. CS

      fun.

    2. JR

      It really is fun. It's so fun to watch. And that, I think that's really important what you just said is creativity. Because that's a big part of this overwhelming style that you have, is that it's creative, is that you're, you're doing things that are unexpected but standard. Like, you're doing punches, kicks, takedowns, but unexpected, so you're finding a way to deliver these things inside of these spaces and movements and stance switches. It's fucking wild to see, man. And i- it's just, it's so exciting to witness this growth of this, what I think is the greatest sport that's ever existed, and to watch it blossom and bloom and become what it is now.

    3. CS

      It totally is, man. Like, uh, fighting's the best sport in the world, man. There's nothing, uh, in my opinion, there's no other sport that's more inspiring either. Like, uh, it's one, like, fighting's entertaining as hell. But, like, how inspiring is it when you watch, like, a guy like Volk go fight Islam up a weight class?

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. CS

      You know, like, how inspiring is that? Sometimes I wonder if that's just me but I don't really think it is, man.

    6. JR

      Oh.

    7. CS

      I th- I think it inspires the world.

    8. JR

      That's a Rocky movie.

    9. CS

      Yeah, seriously man.

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. CS

      Like, uh, Israel taking on Pereira this week.

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. CS

      Like, how inspiring, man. Like, the guy's lost to him three times and he's, like... He knows, man. Like, he knows that if he loses again, like, he's probably not gonna fight for a title for a little bit.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. CS

      That shit's inspiring, dude. Like, how high can, how, how much higher can the stakes get?

  18. 40:28 – 41:13

    Freestyle Bender

    1. JR

      Can't get hi- get any higher.

    2. CS

      No.

    3. JR

      Have you been watching his training footage?

    4. CS

      Uh, I've been watching some of the embeddeds.

    5. JR

      He's got, uh, his own channel, um, I think it's called Freestyle Bender.

    6. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      And he puts up all these videos of all the shit that they're doing, and this motherfucker's going so hard.

    8. CS

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      He's going so... Like you could see he's just broken at the end of some of these sets and training sessions. It's just... He's going as hard as he possibly can with this mindset that there's, there's a way to conquer this guy, there's a way to beat this guy. And I'm so fucking pumped. I, I can't... I'm at- I'm c- it's two fucking days away, man.

    10. CS

      I know.

    11. JR

      It's two days away.

    12. CS

      Are you gonna call it?

    13. JR

      Hell yeah.

    14. CS

      Oh, you are? Nice.

    15. JR

      I can't wait.

    16. CS

      Lucky. I know, I-

    17. JR

      Cool.

    18. CS

      ... I thought about going and then I, but I'm gone too many weekends. But man, I can't wait.

    19. JR

      I can't wait.

    20. CS

      And Masvidal and Burns, I kinda want to see who wins that fight

  19. 41:13 – 44:26

    Moz Vidal

    1. CS

      too.

    2. JR

      That's a very interesting fight. Uh, it's, it's gonna be interesting to see if Masvidal can handle the Burns' takedowns and Burns' aggression. It's just, where's Masvidal in his career, you know? I mean, he looked great in fights in the past but then, you know, you see the fight with Kamaru, he gets KO'd, and then he loses the fight to Colby, he gets overwhelmed. Like, where's he at right now?

    3. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JR

      And he's older, and I think he... Would you say he's 38? 37 or 38? You know, at a certain point in time, you, you can't do it anymore the same way.

    5. CS

      That's what he was saying too, right?

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. CS

      He was saying if he loses, this will probably be his last one.

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. CS

      Dude, did you used to watch all of those videos of, like, the street fights before kinda... Dude, that, that-

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. CS

      When I was thinking... 'Cause I get asked, you know, sometimes, like, "Hey, how'd you get into MMA?" I don't ever have, like, an interesting story, you know? I'm like, "Well, I used to watch Kimbo knock people's eyeballs out in backyards."

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. CS

      (laughs) Remember that video, dude?

    14. JR

      Yes, yes.

    15. CS

      Holy shit, that was crazy.

    16. JR

      Yeah, that was crazy. They were like fighting near a satellite dish.

    17. CS

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      There was all sorts of stuff in the background, they're gonna move around things.

    19. CS

      Ser- seriously. Uh...

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. CS

      Yeah, I remember there was like a stint in my, like, teenage years where I just would watch World Star Hip Hop, like... Did y- do you ever get on World Star Hip Hop?

    22. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    23. CS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, where it would just be like fight compilations.

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CS

      And I would just watch for like 40 minutes, just like people beat the shit out of each other on the streets and I thought-

    26. JR

      (laughs)

    27. CS

      ... it was so awesome. That's like what got me into fighting.

    28. JR

      That's crazy.

    29. CS

      I was like, "Oh yeah, I wanna fuck some people up like that. That looks cool."

    30. JR

      It's funny that that got you in, but your style is so intelligent.

  20. 44:26 – 47:57

    Mental battle

    1. CS

      cool.

    2. JR

      It i- it is, and that mental battle and w- wondering whether or not you've done enough in camp.

    3. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JR

      'Cause there's some guys, there's some guys that are very, very talented, but they- they're not very disciplined.

    5. CS

      Mmm.

    6. JR

      And those guys, you could always see that moment where the other guy is in shape, and they start to doubt and start to think about, "Maybe I ate too many donuts, maybe I slept in, missed a few training sessions that I could've gone to, and now I don't have the gas tank, and this guy's coming after me."

    7. CS

      Yeah. That's a horrible spot to be in.

    8. JR

      It's a horrible spot to be in.

    9. CS

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      An- there's another thing about MMA, is the management of your energy in a fight. And this- these calculated maneuvers of when to burst and when to take your foot off the gas and when, when to know- like, have an understanding of your body, like, what it's capable of at any given moment. And it's one of the things that drives me nuts about bad refereeing. Like, say if someone has a, a big burst for- and shoots for a take-down, massive struggle, gets it to the ground, and then is trying to intelligently move to a place where they could do damage, but the other person's defending well, and then the referee interferes and stands him up. I'm like, "Jesus fucking Christ. Do you know how hard it is to get someone to the ground?" And if that person is having a hard time on the bottom, they should probably get up, figure out how to get up. But for you to just- the boos of the casuals, and, and you're like, "Come on, stand him up, stand him up," and you just st- interfere in a fight?

    11. CS

      Seriously.

    12. JR

      It drives me nuts.

    13. CS

      I, I, I can't- I, I don't really think that they fully understand what it's like from, like, a fighter's point of view. To be like, "Finally, I got this motherfucker down."

    14. JR

      Right.

    15. CS

      And then, like, to have him stand back up, and then you gotta do the shit again?

    16. JR

      Yeah, and on top of that, maybe, you know, you emptied the gas tank a little bit doing that-

    17. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JR

      ... and this guy's fresh, and then you get kicked.

    19. CS

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      You know, and then all fucking you're- now your leg's compromised, now you're switching stances, now you're trying to relax, but now this guy's turning it on. Now you have to eat up the gas that you were trying to conserve, and now, now you're moving al- it's unnatural. It's like you- there was an unnatural intervention in the exchange. And that was a referee.

    21. CS

      I know. I, uh, I always think about, like, uh, how- 'cause everyone talks about the judging and all that. I always wonder how that could actually be, like, again, like, reliably fixed to where it's not- we're not just, like, guessing, or we're not- y- you know, like, a- a- and it seems, like, super hard. But I don't, I don't- I think that the problem isn't with the criteria as much as it is with the, uh, the actual rules. Like, I, I almost feel like, like say you work real hard, you get a take-down, and there's three minutes left on the clock. And then there's just so much, uh, ambiguity as to, like, how much is enough damage.

    22. JR

      Right.

    23. CS

      That, like, there's so much ambiguity happening that unfortunately, 'cause it'll mess up some other things, I almost feel like you have to add in rules where, like, uh, "Okay, so I get stood up if I can make it so that this guy can't punch me for 30 seconds," or whatever amount of time it is or something. But I almost feel like those types of problems only will get solved by rules. They, they won't get solved by, uh, this, like, ambiguity where, like, the ref can kinda make whatever decision, and each ref is different, and each crowd is different, and they're just making a bunch of decisions. So I think that someone, not me, should sit down and really think about, you know, making it really clear and really straightforward about, like, the rules so that that kind of stuff doesn't

  21. 47:57 – 55:10

    Judges

    1. CS

      happen anymore.

    2. JR

      Yeah, I think in that sense that it is too subjective. It's too subjective, and too many referees have different i- ideas of what's acceptable. And also, you can see referees reacting to the crowd. You've seen-

    3. CS

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      ... we, we all see that. I think that's ridiculous. That shouldn't- that should never take place.

    5. CS

      Judges too.

    6. JR

      Yes, for sure. There's a lotta bad judging. Jesus Christ, some of these decisions lately where, you know, y- they, they g- like, who gave Marlon the fight?

    7. CS

      Uh, I, I don't know.

    8. JR

      Somebody gave Marlon the fight.

    9. CS

      Yeah, yeah, I know.

    10. JR

      Okay, that's fucking insane.

    11. CS

      I know.

    12. JR

      I want you to imagine if there was three people who gave Marlon that fight.

    13. CS

      I know. What if-

    14. JR

      And how-

    15. CS

      ... what if one other dude fucked up that night? 'Cause that guy obviously fucked up.

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. CS

      But imagine if it was someone else and I, like, went home a loser, like, scratching my head, like...

    18. JR

      Insane.

    19. CS

      Insane.

    20. JR

      Insane.

    21. CS

      Yeah, that's pretty scary.

    22. JR

      Like, what is the best performances of your career in a fight where everybody who watched thought you won. Everybody. Like, the, the idea of giving that to Marlon, and I'm a Marlon fan. He didn't win that fight. You won that fight.

    23. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      It's clear. So whoever the fuck that judge is-... you're not doing that anymore. Like, you could ruin careers, you could take away win bonuses, you know?

    25. CS

      Yeah, they, they need a universal, uh, they need a universal commission.

    26. JR

      Yes.

    27. CS

      Like, I, I really think that that should... Because I, I almost wonder, like, why the UFC hasn't done it yet. Because i- if I was the UFC, it would be in my best interest to make sure that everyone's on the same page so that, uh, someone doesn't, like, mess something u- like, s- 'cause that fight very well, if one other person got it wrong, just one other person, c- I could have lost. And then, like, that would have changed a lot of stuff, man, because, uh, i- i- i- it just would've, you know? Like-

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. CS

      ... people care about wins and losses. I, I almost feel like there, you know, someone should look into making a universal commission so that the rules are laid out clear. We have 10 judges that we use at this time. The judges are completely, 100% on the same page about what's winning, what's not winning. That way, all of the fighters know that. Because right now, it's just commissions from different states just deciding on whatever rules they wanna do. And I, I really think that, like, step one is universal commission.

    30. JR

      I think there's another step that needs to be taken, and that's a- an abandonment of the 10-point must system.

  22. 55:10 – 1:12:14

    Scoring in MMA

    1. JR

    2. CS

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      I think a l- a larger number.

    4. CS

      Hm. That's a good idea.

    5. JR

      I don't think 10-9. I don't think 10-9 makes any sense to me. It's just too much room for interpretation, too much room for subjectivity. I think w- we should d- we should have some really large number. That's, that seems what it... It's just such a different sport-

    6. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      ... than boxing. 10-9 makes sense in boxing. 10-8, he got a knockdown. Makes sense.

    8. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      It does not make sense in MMA-

    10. CS

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      ... 'cause, like, you'll see guys get knocked down and win the round.

    12. CS

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      You know, it's like, well, how hurt was he on that knockdown and what should that count for?

    14. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      You know, we don't count knockdowns in the same way that boxing counts knockdowns, where you... Like, if, if you're watching, like, Caleb Plant and Benavidez, if Benavidez knocks Caleb Plant down, you know that's a 10-8 round.

    16. CS

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      We, everybody knows. "Oh, he is got out a 10-8 round. He won that round." That is not the case in bo- in MMA where there's a clear cut thing that you could point to and say... You know, there's so many fights that are so goddamn close. Like, Sugar Sean and Petr Yan-

    18. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      ... perfect example.

    20. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      Like, Jesus Christ, that was a close fight.

    22. CS

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      Why? And you gotta, like, really look at it to try to figure out who won. I think they got it right. But when I first saw it, I thought they got it wrong-

    24. CS

      Hm.

    25. JR

      ... because I was s- I first saw it and Petr was on top at the end of it. I was like, "I think he got it." And like, "Oh, wow, he won. Hm." But I was eating, I was, uh, uh, uh, backstage-

    26. CS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. JR

      ... at a green room after a comedy show, hanging out with friends. But watching it alone, I was like, "Okay, that is a complex fight where I, uh, is close, but I think they got it right."

    28. CS

      I do too.

    29. JR

      I think there should be a complete overhaul of the j- of the scoring system. And I think they should have some sort of a conference where they get together with experts and world-class referees and judges and trainers and fighters and everybody has input. Do it at, like, that UFC fighter week thing that they do in July-

    30. CS

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:43:36

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