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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #148 with Bernard Hopkins

Joe sits down with Bernard Hopkins, a retired professional boxer who held multiple world championships, including the lineal light heavyweight and undisputed middleweight.

Joe RoganhostBernard Hopkinsguest
Jun 27, 20242h 59mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 5:03

    From champion to promoter: learning the business side the hard way

    1. NA

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience. (drumbeats)

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) We're here. What's up?

    4. BH

      Hey.

    5. JR

      Pleasure to meet you, man. I've been a gigantic fan of yours for a long time, so-

    6. BH

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. JR

      ... it's a real pleasure.

    8. BH

      That's what I've been hearing, uh, um, Joe, but, you know, I'm also become a fan in the last couple of years, uh, before you came to Austin. Um, uh, I go out to LA a lot, uh, to do boxing promoting in West Coast, East Coast, with our Golden Boy Promotion, um, partner, Oscar De La Hoya. So, um, good to be met, and good to meet you also.

    9. JR

      What is it like transitioning from being a fighter to being a promoter? 'Cause, uh, Oscar, yourself, Floyd, only a few fighters have, have managed to do that successfully like you have.

    10. BH

      Well, first of all, it's not just walking into it. Uh, I sort of got groomed in my career, um, based on, um, I'll say the last eight, nine years of my 30-year career. Um, I took on a- the, the ownership and responsibility of making the last decisions. I hired people that can give me the right information. Um, not a lot, but just a few people that can give me the right information about this particular fight. For instance, Kelly Pavlik in Atlantic City, um, Oscar De La Hoya fight, in '06, '07. Um, and- and I groomed myself for this moment, to be able to be independent, but also learn the business. And let me tell you, it is difficult. It's difficult not doing a job, uh, per se, but it's difficult in the business, in the structure of- of- of the business of boxing. Um, (laughs) the- the- the small family in boxing, whether they're here, there, in a promotional setting or commissioner setting, uh, they will definitely try to discourage you by any means necessary.

    11. JR

      Yeah, I can imagine, especially yourself, 'cause you had had so many issues with promoters over the years and you were so vocal about it, unlike a lot of other fighters.

    12. BH

      Yeah, um, I mean, because I was, one, a- one, forced to do it, uh, to- to- to fight back. And then second, uh, I looked at it as, um, I didn't really have a choice, even though I could have laid down, but I- or got down, uh, to- to their, uh, demands. But I understood one thing, uh, my instincts of survival, but also not just being, um, in the game. I wanted different for myself. And I had one bad experience. Well, I had a couple of bad experiences, but I had one... The first bad experience I had early in my career, um, and I wound up, uh, getting out of that deal, um, with Butch Lewis. And I can mention names, not because he's deceased, but I can mention it because I wound up being actually sued based on keeping me in check. But I fired back, and I wound up, you know, uh, counterpunching and got out of that situation and spoke boldly about it and moved on to try to wake others up. Not actually preach, but just bring it up about my situation, if anybody recognized and experienced it, any fighter or anybody else, they can grab some knowledge. But- but that was the start of it. That was the start of it. My first professional fight, not first, but my first championship fight was Roy Jones Jr., and that fight was a parity fight. It was a split, 1.4 split between me and Roy Jones. I have the contract, I kept all the stuff, even to the day. I can go back and reflect and bring not only cont- uh, content, uh, uh, for what I'm speaking about, but I kept it because I paid for it. It's called litigation. And so I said to myself, "How can it be a number, 750, 725 split, parity, uh, the word parity, and I get 80,000 when it's all said and done?" Now, to remind you, I'm fresh out of the penitentiary, '88, '89, '90, '90, I- I rebooted my career after, you know, losing my first fight. S- didn't box for 15 months. So now we in the, what, you know, early '90s, and I rebooted myself back into, uh, reaching a goal that I eventually, uh, reached. But the business part, it- it- it- it- it had me thinking in between those- those moments of c-climbing the ladder or being a contender, uh, that this is more than just going to the ring and winning and not winning. This was something that I had to learn quick, uh, on the job learning.

  2. 5:03 – 10:29

    Boxing’s lack of regulation and the ‘people who set the rules break them’

    1. JR

      There's a lot of shenanigans in boxing.

    2. BH

      Um, yes.

    3. JR

      You were, you were-

    4. BH

      I mean, you got a sport, Joe-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. BH

      ... you got a sport that's unregulated, right? Whether that means anything to people or not, but there's no checks and balances there. The people that setting the rules break the rules. I'm gonna say that again. The people that set the rules break the rules. I mean, you know, you- you- you... (phone rings) Where- where- where can you...

    7. JR

      Is that that thing that they said was gonna go off?

    8. NA

      Yeah, yeah, I figured that-

    9. JR

      This is the- this is-

    10. BH

      Oh, this is happening.

    11. JR

      This is happening, cellphones and all that.

    12. NA

      Make sure it's not a real problem.

    13. JR

      Okay. National test. (phone rings)

    14. NA

      I just got mine too.

    15. JR

      This is a national test.

    16. NA

      Okay, all right.

    17. BH

      See, that- that-

    18. NA

      So you know the bombs are dropping.

    19. BH

      See, I was thinking maybe, again, that was somebody, you know, through boxing, they know it's ready to come out. They- they took the business...

    20. NA

      (laughs)

    21. BH

      You know these people, man, you know, you gotta understand there's possibility. But- but the possibility of- of- of- of getting ousted, blackballed-

    22. JR

      Yeah.

    23. BH

      ... in- in- in boxing, such a small circle.... of separate entities that will come together to oust that enemy, to oust that-

    24. NA

      Hmm.

    25. BH

      ... that, that ... Uh, and so, you, you gotta understand the bull- the bull's eye is still on my back in certain reasons, because now, even though I'm in a different position of, of, of, of not only power, but for my career, what I stood up for, um, is not like the past. So, as a promoter today, in Oscar De La Hoya Golden Boy Promotion, the day we signed, the day we became partners, we don't become those who we despise.

    26. NA

      Hmm.

    27. BH

      Now, that's deep.

    28. NA

      That's deep.

    29. BH

      That was 20-something years ago. You can find that anywhere out there in social media. It's there. We suited up and booted with contracts after signing, and that was one of the statements that I continue to bring up 20-plus years later, and be consistent about it. Now, that doesn't mean that every fighter's gonna agree to the business side that you have to represent as a promoter. But one thing for sure, if your talent brings what you asking in your representation, whether they name themselves, which boxing does, manager, consultant, or, uh, advisor. I mean, I just named three entities that's sucking the blood out of the ignorance of the lack of knowledge of, of especially young ones, and the ones that don't wanna learn, I'm not a savior, I'm not running trying to save anyone. But trying to understand my job and my role before my lights go out, is that ... I love the sweet science, but I also understand that boxing gave me a way not to be rotten in the penitentiary or in the graveyard. That's what boxing did for me. It gave me that opportunity. Did I, did I have to walk the walk eventually? Absolutely. Did I have to make sure that even though things can happen where you come up short in a squared circle, that I don't give up? And so having that mentality and being consistent over the years, and still be able to talk in 2023, still know my name, my Social Security, all the numbers that matters, all the things that attach to me is a blessing. I'm not bragging. I'm different. Let them argue. Let them on the side, whoever, fans or no fans. One thing for sure, most will agree that I'm different. Whatever that difference is, I take it. But I'm different. And keeping the course of being that as time move on. Fast approaching 59 January 15th, 1965. I'm knocking on the door of 60.

    30. NA

      You look fucking great.

  3. 10:29 – 23:36

    Origin story: DNA, Philly streets, and discovering value through boxing

    1. BH

      was that mindset. But once ... Again, not changing course on the conversation. Once I understood my value, and boy you can appreciate this, when I understood my value in that penitentiary at 17, when I got certified at 17, 5 to 15, so you track five out of 15 in state prison, that leaves you the bag time, the walk-off, call it parole. They had a boxing gym there and in all of the Pennsylvania prisons, which was 30 plus ... had boxing in they penitentiary, that was part of baseball, flag football, handball on the wall. That spark, that flame came back from little short amateur career I had. That's how I built my reputation up in my neighborhood. I always fought, fight f- fight in the streets, fighting in schools.

    2. NA

      How old were you when you first boxed as an amateur? Like when did you first walk into the gym?

    3. BH

      At nine years old.

    4. NA

      Nine years old.

    5. BH

      My uncle took me to the gym, my mother's brother, 'cause my father had a brother that boxed too. And they all was my weight while I was all their weight when I started, middleweight. My uncles on both sides of the tree, mother and father, uh, boxed at middleweight in the '60s, '70s, early '70s.

    6. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BH

      So it was in my DNA.

    8. NA

      Right.

    9. BH

      Can't help myself. It's who I- who I am and who I became.... but I got back to it-

    10. NA

      So-

    11. BH

      ... when I went to the penitentiary.

    12. NA

      So, when you were an amateur, did you... were you taking it seriously or were you... were you-

    13. BH

      No, I wasn't taking it seriously.

    14. NA

      You weren't fully committed.

    15. BH

      I was eating everything that everybody else was eating at that age in, in the neighborhood and what was there. I mean, I remember fighting and getting a trophy about this big. It was always the same stance, right?

    16. NA

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    17. BH

      Plastic trophy. But, you know, that... to me, that was like a gold medal.

    18. NA

      Yeah.

    19. BH

      You know, they got the trophy shown to everybody in the neighborhood and the elementary school I was at. And then, you know, they take you to, uh... you know, I don't wanna get into no free commercials, but they take you to this, this, you know, this... still around, you know, to get a hamburger and french fries, and you probably know. You know, they take you there and we happy. That was it.

    20. NA

      Right.

    21. BH

      Uh, amateur program, but it was like the PAL, right? I don't... I don't know if they have it here in Texas, the PAL-

    22. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BH

      ... called the Police Athletic League. It's big over there in the East Coast.

    24. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BH

      So, the PAL lead was, uh, structured to get young, Black, urban men that's on the corner or young boys, right? To go to PAL. Now, anybody can go there, but most... m- mostly it was in our neighborhood. They would, you know, come to the gym and, you know, you can sign up for amateur boxing, you could be an Olympic gold medal. You can do this and do that. But I... I had, you know, family members, it was in my DNA. Once I was taken to the gym by Artie McCloud. We call him Artie, but it was Arthur McCloud, called him Moose. My mother's brother, middle weight, badass. Look him up. Artie McCloud. Uh, the streets, um, took his career, obviously based on what? Lifestyle. The streets of Philadelphia, the blue-collar town worker. Uh, Philadelphia can make you or break you when it comes to, um, making it out of there, right? N- not only sports. Any entertainer, any success that you might have on your back in that... in the community. And again, feel your... there's love there. But a lot of us don't make it out, even though the talent was better than mine.

    26. NA

      Hm. Just because-

    27. BH

      Strong, strong, right?

    28. NA

      ... the trap of the streets.

    29. BH

      The, the, the, the trap of the, the streets, but there also, um, what you're used to doing and what you're used to thinking. Listen, until I traveled through boxing, tell you how much boxing did for me. To travel around the world multiple times, meet multiple people from every class of life that I... that I, I believe, you know, I'm pretty sure it's people I haven't met, but from here to there, to, to, to, uh, status or power or influence... influencers. I say, "Man, the world ain't just no Philly." The worl- the world is not just Raymond Rosen projects. So I start understanding now, like even sitting there watching at that time how the fork and the spoon and the butter knife is on one side of the table. (laughs) And I'm looking, "Look, this guy's taking a nap and putting it on the floor. I think he's putting it on his, his lap." I mean, this might sound igno- ignorant, but you gotta understand from that mindset of what I'm saying, not understand my experience, 'cause some haven't, but I start paying attention. That was the key. Just like in the boxing business, I start paying attention. Then once I got to the point where I had a voice, means I had to do something in boxing. Nobody cares if you're considered nobody. Uh, 10-1, 'cause I lost my first fight in Atlantic City to Clinton Mitchell. I was out for nine months, o- out of penitentiary. I wanted to get right back in the ring before I grab a kilo to cocaine like everybody was selling in the '80s and '90s.

    30. NA

      (laughs) That was the plan?

  4. 23:36 – 36:17

    Prison as training ground: survival, social structure, and mindset

    1. NA

      So when you... You got to prison at 17?

    2. BH

      Yes, certification.

    3. NA

      And did you get serious about boxing then? Did you-

    4. BH

      No.

    5. NA

      Was that, like, your outlet?

    6. BH

      No. The, the first year, I ran around the, the jail. When I mean running around the jail, I was basically an inmate. Y4145. I basically... I knew people, I didn't know certain people, and you literally... you, you, you, you, you team up with the people you know in your neighborhood. Uh, that's important. That's important to have, what? Backup, right? You must have that, right?... the Asians was there, the Caucasians was there, the Muslims was there, the Christians was there. Everybody had sets. So you need that. Now, once you get there, somebody know you and somebody will know why you're there and what you're there for. Now, you could say you're there for one thing, but the same people that checks you in, basically, with the guard watching over them, know your whole case. They basically do the work that inmates, nine out of ten, they lifers, who's been there and then they moved up in the ranks because of their clean record in the institution. And they'll look at it, "Oh, he said he got a robbery, but he got a rape." He's saying, "He got a homicide, but he got auto theft."

    7. NA

      Hmm.

    8. BH

      So the credibility, crazy as it might sound, the credibility of which you there for lays, not all said and done, but it lays a foundation how they approach you.

    9. NA

      Hmm.

    10. BH

      And, and, and, and, yo, listen. Even in county, before you get state time, you gotta be in the county, you go back and forth to court, and over 12 months is considered state time. One and a half to five, state time. That's that half that got you to state. It's a different ballgame at Grady 4 State Penitentiary. Maximum security. It's a different ballgame. Knowing somebody, whether they know your uncles or my dad, Bernard Sr., or anybody else in the neighborhood, "I know your father. That's, I remember we used to fight in the projects." Okay. S- s- do you really? Like, you like, is this guy really legit? You gotta find that out whenever. You ain't gonna find out there. You gotta find out later. These are the th- and it could be legit. But these are the things that I've learned. And, and, and most of 'em, the stuff that I know that, in time, it would help me once I got out and once I reached certain level in life, that I need to know certain things, and I got the schooling in that situation, penitentiary. Because, to me, I'm in a penitentiary in society, just don't have a wall. I don't have a wall here, in my, when I'm pointing here, I mean mentally, and I don't have a wall physically where I can see it. But I know for a fact that being in this position that I've been in for 28 years, this is rounding off three decades, based on the sweet science in the ring, when I started and when I retired, six, seven years ago. As I witness and as I experience that first half of, that first part of life that I just said I l- it's felt like I lived three or two or three lives, is helping me now. Because when you're in a position where people think they can go on the internet and think they can find out how much you're worth, what you're not worth. Now, your CPA, your certifying accountant know who you're worth, know who you are. That's your DNA when it comes to business, especially if you got a, a, a good one, the right one.

    11. NA

      Hmm.

    12. BH

      So you get approached with all kinds of agendas. And also you get the ones, sometimes you get the spirit that come, and people that comes thinking that, you know, "Hmm." No matter how you sound and all that, and I'm not trying to sound smart. How you sound smart, what that mean? Certain words you say, tell me the definition of it. Boxing always will have a stigma, and I hate to say it but it's true, 90% of it. We trust, as a fighter, too many people that say that they are who they are, and we give them a pass that they are what they say they are. Because of that experience that I just broke down to you just now, it prepared me without having any knowledge it will, until I recognized it. Being awareness, having awareness. If I didn't have that experience that I just spoke about, for 20 plus minutes, I would be swallowed up like most of 'em. I hear the Tyson stories even when he was on the show, been around him, fought on undercard many times in Vegas at the MGM. No, Mandalay Bay. MGM wasn't even there when I fought on the undercard. And I hear, and a lot of other names, and I say to myself... They say game recognize game, how you gonna e- how you gonna con an ex-con convict? Don't you know I had to talk to get off the block? I am not going to where I say I'm going, I just wanna get off the block. Now if I get off the block based on that guard letting me off because I say I'm going somewhere that I'm not really going-... you build up a skill setting on how to deal with people that you need to deal with. The danger come in is when you do it to everybody. The benefits of it when you in front of somebody that you know is full of shit, that you know is looking right at you lying, and you're saying to yourself, "How long this conversation gonna take to be over?" But being in the position that I've put myself through, nobody gave me anything. I have to have patience even though I don't have to or I don't want to at that moment, because society of what you done, it becomes such great entertainment and historic. You get the stamp that you a celebrity and you bigger than God. I'm a believer. I don't shy, I don't push it on nobody, I don't bring it up just to bring it up in a conversation to say what I agree to disagree. So I believe in checks and balances. I believe in all these things that deal with my situation to balance out, things that need to be balanced. That keeps me on point to know who I am. A lot of things I won't forget and a lot of things I will, on purpose. On purpose. So, I, I realized one thing, Joe. I realized this. All I do now is being written or gonna be written down as I go. But when it's over, that story no longer be written by me. It'll be written by somebody else. I don't want that.

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. BH

      No. You know what I want?

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. BH

      Why I have this time? To write it myself and have the awareness to keep me not just in check, but mindful that every step I make, every accomplishment, every failure, every obstacle, every challenge, whatever it is, I'm gonna stand ten toes down on it at all times. That shows, again, the consistency of Bernard Hopkins Jr. Because anybody that understands and know or follow or know anything about me, 'cause most people don't have the patience to do research. They want somebody to tell them who Joe Rogan is. They want somebody to tell them, most people, who Bernard Hopkins is. I learned not to be in that world of thinking. I learned to do my due diligence before I stepped up to my opponent or adversary, or any other person that breathes the same air of life that I breathe.

    17. JR

      So did you learn this focus and determination and discipline, did you learn this because of prison? Because you wanted to make sure this never happened to you again?

    18. BH

      Absolutely.

    19. JR

      So that, that experience when you were 17, being locked up, that was... And even though it was a horrible situation, pivotal to your, your growth.

    20. BH

      Wh- What do you mean a horrible situation?

    21. JR

      Being in prison.

    22. BH

      No, it wasn't.

    23. JR

      It wasn't horrible?

    24. BH

      No.

    25. JR

      How so?

    26. BH

      Because most of my friends I said was there. Second, I wanted to get out obviously when I got caught. You know, when you get caught by the police or you get locked up, obviously you try and do everything to get out, whether you give a alias name, whether you try to... I didn't do it. But when I got there and I seen that it wasn't like it's promoted on TV per se. Case in point, I had more friends there than I had in the neighborhood that's locked up. Of course they glad to see you because you're locked up with them.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. BH

      The mindset, Joe. When you there, you're not, you know, you're not thinking... Then, you're thinking every... You got people that's for good reasons looking out for you, which means I got this, you need this, you got this, you got a stinger, we make... You can heat some hot water up and eat some soup, whatever. You learn to survive in that pla- situation. Because I don't believe, and I said this in multiple interviews, multiple interviews. I did a lot of expressing myself over the 28 years of boxing, trust me. It's not hard to find my voice. I under-... Well, I got to understand that without that experience, I wouldn't be here having this conversation with you or anyone else before you, let alone the Hall of Fame, let alone today the oldest athlete. Yeah, got Brady a couple years. That win a major world title, surpassing George Foreman.

    29. JR

      Yeah, you were world class into your 50s. There's only a couple guys like that.

    30. BH

      I was defending my title with 25, 30-year-olds and my 40s.

  5. 36:17 – 44:42

    Longevity and proving people wrong: Trinidad, Pavlik, and the politics of narratives

    1. JR

      Yep.Well, I remember when they wrote you off before the Kelly Pavlik fight. I wrote a blog on my website about that fight, 'cause I was so blown away. 'Cause I remember leading into that fight... Everybody wrote you off, first of all, in the Felix Trinidad fight. They thought you were too old then. How old-

    2. BH

      35.

    3. JR

      35.

    4. BH

      Correct.

    5. JR

      They thought you were over the hill. Felix Trinidad is this young, incredible fighter. There was so much emotions involved, when you went to Puerto Rico and threw the flag on the ground. (laughs) Everybody's chasing you. I mean, you sold the shit out of that fight. It was wild.

    6. BH

      But it wouldn't have sold.

    7. JR

      I know, but it did.

    8. BH

      But it just happened. It did.

    9. JR

      Yeah. It did. But it sold like crazy, and they were writing you off. And you put on a master class. I remember that fight. I remember that fight like it was yesterday.

    10. BH

      Just had the anniversary last month.

    11. JR

      Whew. So, I was always a big fan. And I was a big fan, also, of the fact that you were standing up to the promoters, 'cause I remember the people, like the HBO Boxing people, they didn't like it. They didn't like when you talked about all that stuff. They thought you were wasting their time. But you had an important message. And so people were kinda looking to write you off. So by the time you fought Felix Trinidad, it was one of those crossroads fights, where many people thought Felix Trinidad is gonna become an all-time great. Bernard Hopkins is 35. You know, this'll be a good win for Felix Trinidad. And you just fucking boxed masterfully. It was a beautiful fight.

    12. BH

      It-

    13. JR

      It was a, it was a beautiful fight because it showed all the things I love about your style. First of all, the intelligence, the defensive responsibility. You never put yourself in bad positions.

    14. BH

      Never.

    15. JR

      Your defense was always tight as Fort Knox. And you'd just start picking him apart when I was... And I remember watching, going, "Oh, shit. Oh, shit." It was just one of those fights where it was just so exciting. It was so... 'Cause y- you know, even though I was a fan of yours, and I was a fan of Felix Trinidad as well, it was watching it happen. And wa- you, when you watch, it's something special.

    16. BH

      Right.

    17. JR

      And that's the thing that athletics does for us, and particularly fighting, because it's so raw. What it does to us is it shows us the potential that human beings have beyond what we expect.

    18. BH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      You did that with Felix Trinidad and you were in, uh, you were in your 40s when you fought Kelly, right?

    20. BH

      Yes.

    21. JR

      How old were you then?

    22. BH

      I've done that multiple times in my career. Kelly Pavlik, I'd say 44, 45.

    23. JR

      Which is another one I wrote, that's when I wrote a blog about it. I'm like, "Do you understand how crazy this is?"

    24. BH

      They pred- predicted I'd get knocked out on this one.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. BH

      This one in... I'm saying it, like what you're suggesting-

    27. JR

      What happened was j- that was after the Jermain Taylor fight, right?

    28. BH

      Yes. Yes.

    29. JR

      So people thought, "Oh my God, this kid."

    30. BH

      It's... I'm glad you said that. Stop right there.

  6. 44:42 – 59:22

    Corruption mechanics: judges, incentives, and who the industry wants to win

    1. BH

      That they better be aware of, because now this, this, that statement brings me to this conversation that need to be had, that need to be said, and this is the best platform to, to spill it out on you. The boxing game, the business of boxing has to be met with a personality and a discipline no matter what the wind is blowing, which way it is blowing, that I'm not gonna give up. And that's what the threat is, and that's what the fear is. And it's not fear in me personally. It's fear in what I know and what I can do and my consistency to bring the people together, whether they the ones that really mean it, the good politicians, the people that's in the game of boxing, some commissioners, not all, to understand that we need checks and balances in this business, to the least to have law there to, as a structure to honor and go by. And if there's any violation, like anything else, you get chastised for it. You gotta pay. You gotta get punished in so many ways to do it. So boxing, like any other sport in America, is the only sport that's not regulated by any entity other than itself. Hmm. You know, Joe, I used to always say to myself back then, there are so many... When they hear this, they gonna be, "Oh my God." There are so many non-active, non-active, active, excuse me, lawyers in boxing. There's a lot of lawyers or, or, or can be lawyers. They had, they, they went to law school, they got the, the law license, but they don't practice. But they have knowledge of what they can do and what they can't do. Do, do you understand what-

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. BH

      ... I'm saying?

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. BH

      So already most of us are at a disadvantage, not at advantage, to know to dos and don'ts.

    6. JR

      Right, whether or not you're getting fucked.

    7. BH

      So, so, yes, yes, whether or not we're getting fucked. That's the-

    8. JR

      And most of the time you're getting fucked.

    9. BH

      And mo- 99.9% you're getting fucked.

    10. JR

      When you were saying that the Roy Jones Jr. Fight, there was a 1.4 split and you made 750 or whatever it was, after all that, you, you only brought home 80?

    11. BH

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      How's that possible?

    13. BH

      I had a, I had a contract... Again, this was the ignorance come in.

    14. JR

      Okay.

    15. BH

      Lack of knowledge. I had a contract with a management team that sold me out with the promoter. And the promoter, uh, again, Butch Lewis, uh, God rest his soul, uh, he, uh, somehow, um, convinced my managers at that time, Arisen Boxing, uh, that, uh, he, uh, can do better for them in the long term if fighters come and go. Managers and advisors stay around, whatever name they put themselves under. And so I had a 60/40, remember I said ignorance earlier, I had a 60/40 manager contract. I have it to the day framed in my office.

    16. JR

      That's pretty crazy.

    17. BH

      60/40 manager contract. I kept that contract, I framed it.... so these things, uh, because it shows how far I evolved.

    18. JR

      What's a standard contract?

    19. BH

      The sta-

    20. JR

      What's a fair contract?

    21. BH

      The, the... what you negotiate.

    22. JR

      What is, what is, like, w- what, like, so what is a, a good professional get?

    23. BH

      In, in, in boxing?

    24. JR

      Yeah. Like Jermell Charlo for the Canelo fight.

    25. BH

      I'll s- I'll say, a manager shouldn't get no more, no more than 15% at that level of, of, of Charlo. 10% most of the time, but no more than 15 because he might be doing other stuff and he might got investments in you leading up to that moment.

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. BH

      Right? That, you know, leading up-

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. BH

      ... to that moment. He had you Rio Olympics where he had you straight up fighting at a club fight and you build yourself up to a contender, now you're a championship.

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  7. 59:22 – 1:07:55

    Reinvention, ‘The Alien,’ and the recipe for staying elite past 40

    1. BH

      That moment there was around the time I became The Alien.

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BH

      When you box for-

    4. JR

      Yes.

    5. BH

      ... over three decades-

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. BH

      ... you got three brands.

    8. JR

      You were The Executioner.

    9. BH

      The Executioner.

    10. JR

      You had to change it to The Alien.

    11. BH

      Listen, I understood the time I hung around and I had to recreate myself. I had to bring something to the press conference. Joe, I know you're gonna ask the question, but I'm gonna let you answer it.

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. BH

      But I had to come up with something. Why? Why, Joe? It's because what? Every reporter that been covering me, they got tired of covering me eventually. Not based on what I've done and didn't do. I'm making history. They know it every time I fight. They remind me every fight I win. "Uh, but nah, you just did this, you just did that. Ray Robinson couldn't do it and you- you did it." The Tarver fight, jumping up two weight classes. Now, the Charlo brothers, right? You see what he-

    14. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. BH

      ... tried to make history.

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. BH

      Went up to jump two weight classes and fight Canelo. I set records that's still there to be chased. It's a blessing for me to sit back and have fun and- and- and- and- and- and have conversation. But that... but I understood...... again, every moment, every historic moment, every time that I can stay in the game, not because I needed the money. They was paying me very well to leave. They was paying me very well to leave, because of what? I wanted to make sure that I established a historic record, that it would take decades to break 'em. And that's what's happening today or an attempt to happen. And so that, to me, gave me more drive to say, "Ah, I'm gonna stay around one more. I'm gonna chase this dream. I'm gonna chase that gold. I'm gonna make this history 'cause Ray Robinson didn't do it. I'm gonna jump up two weight classes and fight Tarver."

    18. NA

      How old were you when you fought Tarver?

    19. BH

      F- 58... 48, 49.

    20. NA

      You know how crazy that is?

    21. BH

      Yeah.

    22. NA

      So-

    23. BH

      In Atlantic City. Again, this is-

    24. NA

      L- s- how were you able to do that? What- what separates you physically from all those fighters that deteriorated y- young in their career? Is it your defense? Like, is it just technique? Like, what... what-

    25. BH

      It was a combination as a recipe. It was all above. Break 'em down to you. I'm gonna break 'em down to you.

    26. NA

      Okay.

    27. BH

      It was two of those that you mentioned. Discipline, of course. Um, you know, uh, protecting yourself at all times in that ring, even though you're still gonna get hit, but you wanna hit more than you get hit, obviously. The wear and tear. Lifestyle. Joe, the lifestyle outside the ring-

    28. NA

      Mm.

    29. BH

      ... is impeccable. You gotta... you gotta understand the lifestyle and the discipline. Go back to D Block. Let's go back to D Block. Let's go back to running that yard. Yard out, yard in. Let's go back on winning championships in the Graterford Penitentiary. Before I came home, I was a championship in prison. You go to my Instagram, I know they gonna go now, I put up a sparring session with all the inmates outside the ropes watching me spar in the same penitentiary I got paroled from. I have more video that I kept just for my own safekeep, not knowing they're gold today. What kept me in the business of boxing physically was not just my talent. I'm not downplaying it, by no means. Roy Jones was talented than me, Oscar De La Hoya, Trinidad was talented than Bernard Hopkins. "Aw, Bernard, come on now. You had the..." No, I ain't... I ain't talking... I'm talking about far as all around skills. But one thing I did have, I had the room and ability to do what? To reinvent myself, to make sure that I don't be one way all the time. I learned styles that Roy possessed, I learned styles that, that, that Trinidad possessed. I learned the street Philadelphia mentality of the history of Philadelphia, come and wham, bam, thank you, ma'am. I learned all that stuff and wrapped it up in a recipe, and now the main course was served. I learned so many things through time and experience, up or down, bad or good, like or dislike. I learned all these things and put 'em together in a proper space. And I said, "Guess what? If I'm in there with a guy that's strong the first couple of rounds, I'm gonna know it without showing him I'm being leery of him." And once I identify that, takes about two or three rounds. Why you think they said he's a slow starter? He's boring the first four or five fights. Joe, you watch me.

    30. NA

      Yeah.

  8. 1:07:55 – 2:06:24

    Lifestyle over ‘diet’: nutrition, sleep, training philosophy, and Mackie Shilstone

    1. JR

      That was just... It was just extraordinary that you were able to keep that level of skill. Now, I just wanna talk to you about your lifestyle and your training, and what was it about your preparation, the way you lived, that gave you this incredibly long career?

    2. BH

      My mother and father, Bernard Sr. and Shirley Hopkins, my mother, (sniffs) they lived, they lived, they had a different, uh, way of, of, of, of... at that, that time, the way they lived. I, I come up, I told you again, you know, a big family-

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. BH

      ... four sisters and the rest boys. I'm the second oldest. And they both, my mother and father, was dead before 60. Not because of an accident, not because of some, you know, violent crime or anything like that. Lifestyle. I grew up around a lot of stuff. I've seen a lot of stuff. I used to watch my father take syringes and hide them up at the woodwork of the front of the door, up top, and I used to climb up there with a chair and get it and hand it to my mom. And she said, "Where you get that from?" And I used to say it, and I stop... I realized I was starting something. I had to be about maybe six, maybe seven. And I realized I was starting something, so I no longer used to see him put it up there or go up there and get it. And so I... It's the lifestyle. I seen a lot of lifestyle that I knew, and the history too of Philadelphia. Any little success you get, you think you world champion. No, you're a regional champion, you're a Pennsylvania champion. A lot of guys actually wasn't disciplined to take it to the next level. Um, they became stars in their own neighborhood. They became stars in their own city. I wanted to be bigger than that. And so... and, and, and knowing it and saying it is one thing, but just has I... as I speak now, as the conviction that I've continued to walk that walk and talk the talk, uh, that drove me to be able to never give up and never, never waver from what I believe. So that there helped me stay away from the things that is right in front of your face in most of the time. When you win, they have after-parties for Bernard, we're champ. "Oh, Pop-Pop upstairs, he getting in the hot tub." I go right to my room. I wasn't a monk, but I go right to my room because 90% of people that's at that party, m- maybe half of them was rooting against me. And then second, they either smoking, drinking, snorting or anything else. I wasn't about that life. I wasn't about that when I was a hoodlum in the streets. I was about having things that I felt that my parents didn't have enough to give us that life that we just seen right three blocks from where we lived. And sometimes, especially in California, you can make two turns and you're in somewhere where you'd be like, "Well, hold up. Who hit the lottery?" So I wanted that life in a different way and got a chance to now have it and some through the travels and the, and the, and, and the, the time that I've been on this Earth with those two life experience that I look at, three lives that I lived, this the third one, that any of those times could've been over. That kept me disciplined in between fights. The years that I got, got to have some credit, got to give credit to that thinking and that experience of seeing my mother and father die before 60 because of lifestyle. My father had shot out ki- liver, shot his liver out at 57. I feel the best. You look great. I know I feel great. I know I look great. And they was already gone.

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. BH

      I reflect every now and then about that when I see pictures, by getting certain things together about my life story. I'm looking and reading, I'm looking and grabbing things that I kept that's given to me by siblings. We all grown now. All my siblings, except for my brother, 'cause he got killed.The year I went to prison in '84, my mother lost two sons, speaking of that. Michael Derrick Hopkins, I told you January 29th, he'd have been 57, 1966. The year '84, I remember it was the beginning of '84 because the Sixers last championship was in 1983, if you're a basketball fan. '84, I was booked. '84, my brother got killed. Shirley Mae Hopkins lost two sons in '84. Talk about trauma. That was a key, key, key ... push and experience that I had to do something to make her proud, to make her proud once I get out. Still got years to do.

    7. JR

      How many years did you wind up doing?

    8. BH

      Five. Five to 15. Subtract five out of 15, the way the Pennsylvanian Parole Board works, if you get out, o- on your minimum is five. You can do the 15. Get into a stabbing, get write-ups, do something in there that can be a crime, too. The five is the minimum. The 15th is the max. So I had to walk a straight line amongst chaos. No confusion. Everybody, 90% of people there, they know why they there. Fuck what they say. They know why they there. That moment ... after that first year of establishing myself, feeling out the environment of who you deal with, who you stay away from, who to snitch, what guard, what CO is good, what CO is not. Most of the COs live in your same neighborhood you grew up at. It was the brother of your uncle, friend, who never had a felony so he got to fill the application, he got a job and then he's the CO. "I know your dad." "Okay, thanks. Hey CO, can I, you know, uh, uh, get extra commissary or whatever?" "Uh, go ahead." So you're not really protected by nobody because anybody could sell you out or do a favor.

    9. JR

      Hmm. But what I'm trying to understand is, just physically, I understand that you didn't party. I understand that you were very disciplined. But how were you physically able to compete at that level deep into your 40s?

    10. BH

      Because of, uh, again, lifestyle, talent-

    11. JR

      But everybody else falls apart.

    12. BH

      But, but because everybody else is doing what everybody else been doing. The, then, and, and, and, but-

    13. JR

      What were you doing different physically?

    14. BH

      Physically, I was always, even to the day, I pay attention to what I put in my body is who I am, not what I actually look like. And I understood that most people that I seen in my time in boxing, Florida's disciplined the same way. Don't drink, don't smoke, and be sitting right there in the club and everybody doing everything else. You heard that before. It's all over. It's, it's just-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. BH

      ... you got those type people like that. But genetics plays a r- a ... My grandmother lived to 99, but then again, do I really take all the eggs and put it in that basket 'cause my father and mother died before 60? So, uh, I would say the lifestyle. I would say, uh, the mindset or the teachings are both, uh, hit, not get hit, um, you know, read books a lot, do something to exercise your brain, take care of your physical body. The penitentiary, the penitentiary taught me more going there once I got there to understand what I wanted to do. I wasn't just lifting weights in a weight yard and be swole up around a bunch of men for five years. I went and understood that A, after a year went by, they got a boxing program.

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. BH

      I wanted to get off the block to go to another block and the guard, CO said, "Where you going?" "Why 4145." "Hey, I'm, um, I'm going to the gym, but I'm trying to go on A block to hang out before count to go back on my block." If I don't do it, if I don't get over there before count, I get a write-up. So I was forced to go down the gym and seeing people sparring and I said, "I wanna be a part of that." And I got my ass beaten lesson and I didn't like it and I never been afraid to go in the gym again. 30 years later, I said I would never go in the ring or any situation ill-prepared or unrepared. I always go in there prepared. That lesson that I said to you then and I say to you now, being in that institution, having that experience, going in there in that gym for the first time and say, after a year went by, and only by accident-... that I went down that gym because I was headed to another block, as I said earlier. And to get down that gym, because boxing was in the penitentiaries in that era. We had boxing there attached to the AAU, which is the same thing they have outside. It's to bring young fighters in there to fight us. The amateurs have shows for the inmates. You buy a ticket at the commissary. You go to the fights that Friday. And inmates watch you, root for you. I didn't like how I felt. I wasn't prepared. They didn't beat me because I wasn't better. I got beat because I didn't run. I got beat because of ego. I got beat because as they say the word hater that I go down as ʻAhi'ai. "Well, you want to get in there with him?" "Yeah, come on." I used to box when I was down the streets. You know, that's, that's, that's the common talk.

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. BH

      I used to do this when I was in the street. Okay. But those same old head trainers that had double life or one life sentence or two life sentence, they spoke about me on Behind the Glory, Brian Gumbel. Look it up. It's out there. They spoke about me when I visit that same prison in my early professional career. Guess what? During what? Sparring for my Atlantic City preliminary fights when I was building my record to get to where I became a champion. I became the USBA champion, which is a sister of the IBF World Championship belt. I left that institution, anyone would have ran much far as, as far as they could. They'd have ran so far from that place and never want to see it again. But after six or seven months of coming from a first professional loss with Clinton Mitchell in Atlantic City, look it up, I took off 89 and 90. The streets was grabbing me. I still had seven and a half years parole. Do the math. Nine years. I rebooted my first fight, I believe was in 91. 90 and 91. But that crucial moment, that year and a half, if you look up my record, you'll see Clinton Mitchell, 89 inactive. 80, uh, uh, 89, inactive, 90 inactive, 91. W- w- w- what was happening these 16 months? Phew. I made the decision meeting an old guy named Bowie Fisher, God rest his soul. He won a champ- We won championships. He should be in the Hall of Fame because of me. I'm already in there. (sniffs) I'm the only fighter he ever had. Very few trainers go in the Hall of Fame with one Hall of Famer or fighter. Fighter gets in, but the trainer might not. And I'm not saying that's bad or good, I'm just saying that's how it goes. He made a, and I made a, a bet. "You be in the..." This is out there. "You be in the gym tomorrow and the next day, and every day that we in the gym, I will be here." He heard young fighters come through. He heard guys come through before. "Oh, can you train me?" "I'm gonna be here tomorrow." He might come tomorrow, but they don't come to be a champion every day that the gym is open. And we had a bet without even saying it as a bet. He asked me to come and he would be there. If I come, he said he'll be there. And it was sort of like he... And to the point we stopped even thinking about it. We just repeated it to the reporters and everybody that talked to us.

    21. JR

      So how-

    22. BH

      That's how we met.

    23. JR

      How long after your first professional loss do you hook up with Bowie Fisher?

    24. BH

      80... 91. 91, 92.

    25. JR

      So that's 16 months, that's when you hook up with him. And how long do you spend training with him before you have your next professional fight?

    26. BH

      All the way up to the Trinidad fight.

    27. JR

      Oh. So during that 16 months off, were you just training? Were you just improving?

    28. BH

      Yeah. But the training was fighting. You had mandatories. So I had two fights, maybe three a year until you establish yourself. Normally two a year once you get at that level of, of, you know, competition. But yeah, I stayed in the gym. You heard the saying, "gym rat."

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. BH

      I was a rat in that gym. I stayed in the gym. And one thing else that I pass on to the Golden Boy fighters today, because they came, you know, they, they come to me, they asked me quickly. Of course, why wouldn't they? Right?

Episode duration: 2:59:11

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