JRE MMA Show #151 with Bo Nickal

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      What's up, Bo? How are you?

   5. BNBo Nickal0:15

      Good. How you doing?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      What's happening?

   7. BNBo Nickal0:16

      Not much.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      I was gonna ask you, w- we were just looking at that photo of Karelin and talking about the Soviet program and the doping program. Did you ever see that movie, uh, Icarus?

   9. BNBo Nickal0:25

      Yeah, I did watch that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Fucking wild.

   11. BNBo Nickal0:27

       Crazy. I- I thought it was just insane too how it didn't even really start off the way that it ended. Like, he wasn't even really trying to like figure all this stuff out. He just like fell into it, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Yeah.

   13. BNBo Nickal0:38

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Total dumb luck.

   15. BNBo Nickal0:39

       Yeah, but I mean, since I- I wrestled my whole life and stuff and pay attention to the international scene, it's like, it's not really a secret. Like, everybody kind of knows, right? Just like, that's the first legitimate real proof that somebody's kind of come out with. But I mean, everybody kind of knew, like that's what's going on.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       But that was so insane though, that they had a hole in the wall where they were-

   17. BNBo Nickal1:01

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       ... handing through-

   19. BNBo Nickal1:02

       The urine samples, right? Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       ... the dirty urine and getting back clean urine and then submitting that. And if it wasn't for microanalysis of the jars, then they realize, oh, the Soviets had figured ... well, it wasn't the Soviets, it was the Russians, had figured out some way to- to open up these unopenable jars-

   21. BNBo Nickal1:22

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       ... 'cause they had scratched them-

   23. BNBo Nickal1:24

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       ... in little places.

   25. BNBo Nickal1:25

       Yeah, yeah, I mean, they freaking ... they wanna win really bad. And it's like, for them too, it's a- it's a different level. Like, uh, the guys that- that won that were very successful, um, maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago, those guys are like big government positions and stuff. Like m- like in the U.S., in the U.S. you win the Olympics in wrestling, you win like a quarter million bucks and it's a big deal for like a month and then you kind of move on. But over there, it's like you're kind of set for life.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       Really?

   27. BNBo Nickal1:51

       So it's like ... yeah, it's like a different ... it's a completely different, uh, kind of motivation I think.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:56

       Yeah, what is it like competing when you know that there's like state-sponsored programs that are involved in these other countries-

   29. BNBo Nickal2:04

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       ... doping up their athletes?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. BNBo Nickal15:00

      my... The boxing coach now at my gym. He was a collegiate national champion in boxing. And, uh, I did, like, pads with him in... Over COVID, like, once or twice, and, uh... But I really started actually training striking, like, getting into it, um, I started MMA training full time August of 2021. That's when I started striking.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      (laughs)

   3. BNBo Nickal15:23

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      That's insane.

   5. BNBo Nickal15:24

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      So you've really only been seriously striking for two years.

   7. BNBo Nickal15:27

      Yeah, yeah. That's, that's it. And, you know-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:29

      (laughs)

   9. BNBo Nickal15:29

      ... I just... I feel like it's, it's... I just like it. It's fun, so I study it a lot. I'm-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       Yeah.

   11. BNBo Nickal15:35

       ... always watching film and trying to learn.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:36

       Well, your last performance, man. Like, the- the- the thing about, you know, watching you fight inside the octagon, like, everybody knows how good of a wrestler you are. So they're looking for that. But in the last fight, I was like, "Oh, shit." Like, distance management, your ability to slide out of range and then explode back into range, and timing with punches. It looked like you've been boxing forever.

   13. BNBo Nickal15:58

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       It really... It was very impressive. And I know the guy came in on short notice.

   15. BNBo Nickal16:02

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       He's small for the weight class. But dude, you looked fucking great.

   17. BNBo Nickal16:06

       Thank you. Yeah, I felt like, you know, people say, you know, about the, about the matchup, this and that. It was like, well, I did what I was supposed to do.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       Yeah.

   19. BNBo Nickal16:15

       You know? And, uh-

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       It wasn't... Totally out of your control.

   21. BNBo Nickal16:17

       Yeah, yeah. And- and so I feel like I was just excited that I got to fight.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Yeah.

   23. BNBo Nickal16:21

       'Cause I thought I was d-... I was like, well-

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Who was supposed to fight you?

   25. BNBo Nickal16:23

       It was, uh, Treshawn Gore.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       That's right.

   27. BNBo Nickal16:25

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       What happened to him?

   29. BNBo Nickal16:26

       He hurt... I don't know. He hurt his wrist or his thumb or something.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:29

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) Right. …

   1. BNBo Nickal30:00

      improve, you know, the overall sport. And, and I think that when you talk that way too, it appeals to a much broader audience, and it'll get more eyes on the sport, which is also very positive. Like if, if you hear... Like what, what 40-year-old mom wants to hear guys, like, talking about just crushing each other's faces and heads and this and that?

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:20

      (laughs) Right.

   3. BNBo Nickal30:20

      But they'll list- but, but maybe that 40-year-old mom will listen to an interview where Tom Brady talks about, you know, being a quarterback, right? Like, like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:26

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BNBo Nickal30:26

      ... th- you know, you can appreciate it a little more. So that, that's kinda the way that, that I look at it, and that does, a lot of it comes from my, my background in, in wrestling, and-... and, uh, just the way that I've approached that sport, and the way that my- my coaches in wrestling have handled themselves. And just what I've- what I've been taught. But I- I think that MMA, you know, people will still want to see violence, but I would hope that we could make it into a platform where, like, there's some people that wanna see the sport.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:56

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BNBo Nickal30:56

      And- and I- I would hope that it continues to ... I think it's already trending that way, but continues to move that way.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:00

      The reason why I think it's gonna go that way is 'cause I think those fighters are gonna be the most successful.

   9. BNBo Nickal31:05

      Absolutely.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:06

       Just like those quarterbacks that study tape, they are the most successful. The ones who spend the most time in the tape room and the film room, watching, going over plays, they're the most successful.

   11. BNBo Nickal31:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       And I just think it's ... You know, one of the things that DC said when you won your last fight, he just sta- he started saying, "Blue chip."

   13. BNBo Nickal31:24

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:24

       "That's blue chip."

   15. BNBo Nickal31:25

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:26

       But there is something to that, that the elite of the elite in any sport, they have to have all their bases covered. And when those elite of the elite then enter MMA, and use that same analytical, systematic approach to training and getting better at this, they're gonna get so good that everyone's gonna have to do that. E- unless you're some freak of all freaks athletically that can get away with things.

   17. BNBo Nickal31:52

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:53

       Which we have seen guys like that.

   19. BNBo Nickal31:54

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:54

       But for the most part, hard work overcomes that.

   21. BNBo Nickal31:59

       Oh, absolutely.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       And intelligence, and- and proper training, for the most part.

   23. BNBo Nickal32:03

       Yeah, for sure. D- so tell me what you think of this, 'cause I- I kinda look at the sport and- and see the- the trends, and the way things are going. So, it started off in MMA, it was like, which martial art beat which, you know? And- and we kinda saw, like, the- the wrestlers had some success, but then Royce Gracie jujitsu was like, if you don't know jujitsu, you're gonna get destroyed, you're gonna get killed. And then it became, okay, now, if I know a little jujitsu and I can defend and then strike, like, that- that's the advantage. And wrestlers really took over in that stage. I feel like from there, it went to where ... a point where the most well-rounded guys were winning. Like, uh, you look at, like, George St-Pierre, right? Like, he's not a wrestler but super well-rounded, great jujitsu, great, uh, wrestling, great striking, you know, good conditioning. Like, it was like the well-rounded guys had- had the- the biggest advantage. I think now it's moving to a point where it's almost coming back, and I- and I use myself an ex- as an example, but you have to be a specialist in one thing where it's like, dude, like, that one thing is better than anyone in the world, and then everything else has to be elite. (laughs) Yes.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:17

       It's like- like Isra Adesanya, like, he's the best kickboxer, like, one of the best kickboxers in the world, but he also has great take-down defense and- and you even see him throw up subs in some of his fights, things like that. Or, you know, you see guys where it's like, dude, you have this one thing, Khabib. This one thing, his grappling is so, like, outrageous, but then everything else is, like, freaking world-class. It's like, that- that's where I think it's getting, you know. Now these guys that have one thing that can kind of overwhelm and overpower somebody in a certain area, but everything else is, like, not as good but better than- Yeah.

   25. BNBo Nickal33:52

       ... average. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:53

       Well, I def- I definitely think there's a gigantic advantage to being elite in one specific area, whether it's wrestling for you, or if you look at Alex Pereira.

   27. BNBo Nickal34:02

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:02

       The kickboxing.

   29. BNBo Nickal34:03

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:03

       Like, his kickboxing is so fucking dangerous-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      it's just a full comprehensive analysis of every single aspect of it, and then you see these insane results-

   2. BNBo Nickal45:08

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:08

      ... like the Penn State team.

   4. BNBo Nickal45:09

      Right. Yeah, I love that too. You know, that was, um... I didn't know it at the time, 'cause I was just a high schooler, but that was, like, a big reason... A big thing that drew me to the program, was the culture. You know, how they approach the sport. And, and everything we're talking about right now too is like... It's not even half of it, because we're not even talking about, like, the psychology of it, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:27

      Mm.

   6. BNBo Nickal45:27

      Like, of what it's like to mentally go out there and, and, and perform and do what you need to do. But like you said, leaving no stone unturned, making sure that I've done every single thing, uh, that I can do to be... To put myself in the best possible position to have success here, you know. That, that's, that's what, what I wanna do in fighting. That's what I feel a lot of people don't do, you know. They're, they're, they're tough dudes who have some skills, they're athletic, and, uh, they're smart, and they go out there and they fight. It's like, well, that's not really the way that I look at the sport, you know. I, I look at it, like... Again, like you said, all-encompassing, comprehensive. How can I optimize every single part of my lifestyle to now go out there, be comfortable, be confident, and I'm not here to guess, "Oh, am I gonna win this fight?" Like, no. And, and that's another reason that I'm taking my career the way I am. I, I fought in July, I'm not fighting again, you know, for a while. And people say, "Oh, it's, you know, you're, you're, you're a prospect. You need to fight this and that." It's like, well, I wanna be ready and prepared to the point where... You know, now I'm fighting guys that are, you know, unranked, that are, that are... People see as low level. Like, nobody's low level in the UFC, but people see as, as a lower level and I'm demolishing them, dominating them. By the time I fight a guy in the top 15, top 10, top 5 championship, I'm planning on doing the exact same thing to you, bud, because this is the way that I'm structuring my life. So if that takes more time for me to improve and get better, fine, no worries. I'm willing to be disciplined and not be in a rush t- to do that. And, you know, like you said, that, that just comes from the overarching theme of doing things right, doing things correctly, and, and always trying to learn and improve and grow and do better and, and just come a- b-... Come at it in a professional, intelligent way.

   7. JRJoe Rogan47:16

      How... Now, speaking about l- your last fight from there until now, that, that is quite a, a, a large amount of time. Uh, is it difficult for you to get fights? Is it d- difficult for you to get quality opponents? Because, I mean, there was obviously a lot of hype on you before you even got into the UFC. There's a Contender show, and, uh, you know, watching you compete and everybody knew right away, like, "Oh, this guy's got something special." And then you got guys who are like, "Hey, I'm, like, fucking 1-1. I don't wanna fight that guy."

   8. BNBo Nickal47:46

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan47:46

      "Fuck that. I need to learn."

   10. BNBo Nickal47:48

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan47:48

       So there's a lot of guys that are probably gonna look at that match-up and go, "That is just not right for me at this time. I don't need to get smoked and have my confidence crushed and realize that the gap is so wide." Realistically, there's some guys that are competing that unless they have some monumental breakthrough or unless they leave their training camp and move into a completely new environment and get totally new coaches and radically restructure their life, they're never gonna bridge that gap. They're never gonna bridge it.

   12. BNBo Nickal48:15

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan48:16

       And so how hard is it for you to get quality opponents and the kind of opponents that you really do need in order to continue to not just... You're developing these skills obviously in the gym, but you, you also need to be implementing them in real fights.

   14. BNBo Nickal48:31

       Oh yeah, for sure. You know, it, it, it's been so interesting, my, my journey. I feel like I always try to look for people to compare and see how they did things and maybe take the positives and negatives and, and apply those to what I'm doing, and there really hasn't been that many people that have done what, what I've done. I, I'm 5 and 0 right now. I started training in August of 2021, MMA.

   15. JRJoe Rogan48:55

       That's hilarious.

   16. BNBo Nickal48:56

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       (laughs)

   18. BNBo Nickal48:57

       I know. I started... So I started training-

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:59

       That really is so funny.

   20. NANarrator49:01

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan49:01

       That is so fucking crazy.

   22. BNBo Nickal49:03

       Yeah, yeah. I know. It's wild.

   23. JRJoe Rogan49:04

       Well, Dana White originally was like, "Th- y-" He was like, "Wait a while."

   24. BNBo Nickal49:07

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan49:07

       Like, "I don't want you get to even in the UFC that quick."

   26. BNBo Nickal49:08

       Well, so that, like, it'll get, bring me around to, to the point you made. So what happened was I- I started training. Um, four weeks later, I was like, "Yo," like, "What's? I'm freak... Let's get a fight," like. So I took an amateur fight, and, uh, just some poor dude, like didn't know what he was doing. He was 0-0, or 1-0 amateur. I was 0-0, and, and he took the fight. And I think a lot of people, there was a lot of question marks. People were like, "All right, I don't know," like, "Let's see. Let's see what's up." And I-

   27. JRJoe Rogan49:35

       Right.

   28. BNBo Nickal49:35

       ... I choked the guy out, and I was like, "Let's go again." Four weeks later, I fought my second amateur fight, knocked the dude out cold, and then I, then I was like, "All right. Well, I wanted to, uh, put a show together in my hometown, in State College," and, uh, so I was working for a few months to get that going, and it just, there was... The PA Athletic Commission is... Working between my management team, the PA Athletic Commission, and Penn State, there was just too many moving parts. It was tough, and I was like, "I need to fight." So you know, I could wait like four more months and do this, or I could just get a fight. So then, um, I had trained another six months, six, seven months, and I was like, "Let's do it, pro debut," and that was in June of 2022, and uh... So I'm coming out against a, you know, another poor guy who thought, like, he was gonna knock me out or something, and uh, knocked him out in 30 seconds on UFC Fight Pass, and it did like the most views in UFC Fight Pass history. Um, like more than any other promotion. It was like something like three or four million views in the week, and so the ne- and, uh, it did a bunch that night.

   29. JRJoe Rogan50:39

       There it is.

   30. BNBo Nickal50:39

       Yeah, this is it.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:09:01

   Right. …

   1. BNBo Nickal1:00:00

      they push him or the way that they, where they put you on the cards this and that, like, that's worth so much. And, and, you know, the, the pl- like you look at a guy in the... A good example, you said in the NFL. Look at an NFL running back or NFL quarterback, like, a lot of these guys get, get big endorsement deals from Bose or Nike or whatever, and it's like you could be just as good. If you're not playing the NFL, you're not getting that.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

      Right.

   3. BNBo Nickal1:00:21

      If you're not in the UFC, like, all these marketing deals, all these endorsements, like, those aren't really gonna be available to you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

      Right.

   5. BNBo Nickal1:00:27

      You know? It's, it's, it's the platform. And so I think people, people talk about fighter pay, this, that, whatever. It's like, uh, I'm in the, I'm in the boat of, it's on you to get yours. Like, I'm never gonna sit around and beg for somebody else for a check. It's like, "Oh, pay me more money, pay me..." It's like, dude, go, go earn it, like, go get it. Like, I, I, I feel like, you know, what, what you get paid, that, that's between you and, and the company, and, and take care of what you need, uh, and, and take care of what you need to take care of. And, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take care of me. And, you know, this... But there's a lot of other parts of the equation that people don't factor in, in my opinion.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

      Yeah, there's definitely parts that people don't factor in. And then there's also, like, this feeling of being in the UFC that everybody who wants to be a fighter dreams of.

   7. BNBo Nickal1:01:14

      Oh, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

      You want to be there when Bruce Buffer is right in front and go, "Iiiit's time!"... nine.

   9. BNBo Nickal1:01:21

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       And you're like, "Holy shit."

   11. BNBo Nickal1:01:24

       Oh my gosh. It was so funny, yeah. So when I was, uh, when I, when I, after I signed my UFC contract and stuff and knew I was gonna fight, the, the two things I always wanted was I wanted to have Bruce Buffer announce me-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

       (laughs)

   13. BNBo Nickal1:01:35

       ... and I wanted to do post-fight interview with you. I was like, "Yo, these two things," like those are like bucket list things for me. Like, it's so cool, so fun. And the way they do it, you know, the everything, the energy in Las Vegas when there's a big fight, it's unbelievable. There's-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:49

       There's nothing like it.

   15. BNBo Nickal1:01:50

       There is nothing like it.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:50

       Nothing like it.

   17. BNBo Nickal1:01:51

       And I lo- that's where I want to be, like-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

       Yeah.

   19. BNBo Nickal1:01:53

       ... you know, if I could fight 50 times a year, like, I would do it. If that was what was... if that was feasible, you know, 'cause wrestling it was in college I would wrestle 50 matches in a year. But you know, you, you, you can't do that with fights, but if I could, man, I just love that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

       Mm-hmm.

   21. BNBo Nickal1:02:06

       Like every, I go, I'd do it every weekend. It's so much fun.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

       I went to the UFC in Austin last weekend, and is, is the rare moment where I get to watch-

   23. BNBo Nickal1:02:14

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:14

       ... and just sit there.

   25. BNBo Nickal1:02:15

       Oh, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:15

       Oh, dude.

   27. BNBo Nickal1:02:16

       You probably, yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:17

       No headphones on, just appreciate the crowd. It, they're like the fucking energy is crazy.

   29. BNBo Nickal1:02:22

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:23

       It's like you're on a drug just sitting there.

Episode duration: 2:09:16