JRE MMA Show #151 with Bo Nickal

1. 0:00 – 2:05

   Icarus, Soviet-style doping, and how “everyone knew” in international wrestling

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      What's up, Bo? How are you?

   5. BNBo Nickal0:15

      Good. How you doing?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      What's happening?

   7. BNBo Nickal0:16

      Not much.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      I was gonna ask you, w- we were just looking at that photo of Karelin and talking about the Soviet program and the doping program. Did you ever see that movie, uh, Icarus?

   9. BNBo Nickal0:25

      Yeah, I did watch that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Fucking wild.

   11. BNBo Nickal0:27

       Crazy. I- I thought it was just insane too how it didn't even really start off the way that it ended. Like, he wasn't even really trying to like figure all this stuff out. He just like fell into it, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Yeah.

   13. BNBo Nickal0:38

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Total dumb luck.

   15. BNBo Nickal0:39

       Yeah, but I mean, since I- I wrestled my whole life and stuff and pay attention to the international scene, it's like, it's not really a secret. Like, everybody kind of knows, right? Just like, that's the first legitimate real proof that somebody's kind of come out with. But I mean, everybody kind of knew, like that's what's going on.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       But that was so insane though, that they had a hole in the wall where they were-

   17. BNBo Nickal1:01

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       ... handing through-

   19. BNBo Nickal1:02

       The urine samples, right? Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       ... the dirty urine and getting back clean urine and then submitting that. And if it wasn't for microanalysis of the jars, then they realize, oh, the Soviets had figured ... well, it wasn't the Soviets, it was the Russians, had figured out some way to- to open up these unopenable jars-

   21. BNBo Nickal1:22

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       ... 'cause they had scratched them-

   23. BNBo Nickal1:24

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       ... in little places.

   25. BNBo Nickal1:25

       Yeah, yeah, I mean, they freaking ... they wanna win really bad. And it's like, for them too, it's a- it's a different level. Like, uh, the guys that- that won that were very successful, um, maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago, those guys are like big government positions and stuff. Like m- like in the U.S., in the U.S. you win the Olympics in wrestling, you win like a quarter million bucks and it's a big deal for like a month and then you kind of move on. But over there, it's like you're kind of set for life.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       Really?

   27. BNBo Nickal1:51

       So it's like ... yeah, it's like a different ... it's a completely different, uh, kind of motivation I think.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:56

       Yeah, what is it like competing when you know that there's like state-sponsored programs that are involved in these other countries-

   29. BNBo Nickal2:04

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       ... doping up their athletes?

2. 2:05 – 4:28

   Competing against “juiced” opponents: Bo’s Rome tournament story

   1. BNBo Nickal2:05

      It's pretty weird. You know, I think that because like I said, I kind of grew up ... you grow up with an understanding o- of it, knowing like this is kind of the way it works, uh, you just ... you're ready for it, you're prepared, you understand, but ... and I'm sure I've competed against a lot of guys that were doping and doing stuff, but the one experience that I had that was like, uh, really kind of prominent in my mind, so I wrestled this dude ... I- I wrestled at a tournament in Rome. This was a few years ago and I was trying to go up from ... I was in between weights, so my weight was, uh, 86 kilos or 97 kilos, and I was ... and I ... it was kind of having a little trouble with my lower back, so I was like, "I don't wanna cut, I just wanna like get bigger." And so I came in, uh, and I was weighing, uh, like 210, which the weight class is 213, 97 kilos, and I was like, "I'll be fine, like I'll be good." And, uh, I rolled up, uh, to this second round match and I was wrestling this Ir- Iran- Iranian dude, and my coa- uh, my coaches weren't there with me so I had like some different coaches and they didn't really warn me who this dude was. I had wrestled the number one Iranian guy a few months earlier and I tech- I tech falled him, like I killed him, so I was like, "I'm gonna smash this dude, like I don't even ... I don't give a crap." This dude comes out, he's like two inches taller than me, freaking jacked as hell, and, uh, does a forward roll and h- like squat jump and his feet are like over my head, and I'm like, "What the hell is going on here?"

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:25

      (laughs)

   3. BNBo Nickal3:26

      (laughs) And we're at this random tournament in Rome and I'm wrestling some dude that I don't even know, and he- he killed me. It's the only time I've ever wrestled a match where like I really got whipped. Like he ... single leg took me down, gut-wrenched me, and I ... and he came down from probably like 235. Like, he was way bigger than me. And, uh, then I g- got off the mat and I was like, "What the f- just happened?" And, uh, then the coach were like, "Oh, uh, th- oh yeah, this guy was, uh, world, um, silver medalist, world bronze medalist like five years ago, but the last five years, he got banned ... he- he got popped, and so he hadn't competed in five years." He'd just been freaking training and juiced.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:03

      (laughs)

   5. BNBo Nickal4:03

      And then he actually ... the next round, he beat my teammate Kyle Snyder, who was an Olympic gold medalist, the exact same way, like- like smoked us both. And I was like, "What the hell is going on here?" So then world championship that year comes along and now they're getting tested and he like went 0 and 1, so ...

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:20

      Ah.

   7. BNBo Nickal4:20

      Yeah, yeah. I was like, "Ah, all right." Like (laughs) so I kind of like felt bad about myself at first. I was like, "Damn, I suck." And then I was like, "All right, well, it is what it is. Whatever."

3. 4:28 – 9:25

   Enhanced Games, PED ethics, and UFC drug testing after USADA

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:28

      Have- have you ever heard of the enhanced games?

   2. BNBo Nickal4:30

      Uh, no.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:31

      It's a thing they're trying to do, um, where, uh, I guess what they're doing is they're allowing athletes ... and they're gonna do it at the same time as the Olympics.

   4. BNBo Nickal4:42

      Okay.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:42

      And they're allowing athletes to juice, and they're doing it supposedly responsibly-

   6. BNBo Nickal4:49

      Yeah. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      ... with doctors involved and they're trying to break all the records.

   8. BNBo Nickal4:53

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:54

      Is-

   10. BNBo Nickal4:54

       I like it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       (laughs)

   12. BNBo Nickal4:55

       I- I think they ... I like that. Let's do it. And just be honest about it, like-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:58

       Yeah.

   14. BNBo Nickal4:58

       ... "Yo, this is the deal, this is what we do. Let's freaking see how far we can go."

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:02

       Yeah.

   16. BNBo Nickal5:03

       'Cause I mean, I think that's ... I- I don't know. I- I like ... that stuff's interesting to me, the optimization of like human performance, right? Like how-

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:10

       Yeah.

   18. BNBo Nickal5:10

       ... far can you get so like l- l- let's do it. That'd be fun. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:15

       Yeah, it's- it's interesting, right? 'Cause like you think about that guy, the Iranian that you wrestled, like how much of an advantage is it? Like what ... uh, you know, you never know because a guy like that's probably been juicing his entire athletic career.

   20. BNBo Nickal5:30

       For sure.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       But like, what is the advantage? Like, do you ever wonder like, "I wonder if I should try that shit real quick?"

   22. BNBo Nickal5:35

       I think that ... I've- I- I've thought about it, um, as far as the advantages. I- I never have been interested in- in trying anything like that, just it's not really the culture, like what- what I'm around in wrestling, in American wrestling, nobody does that. Well, I won't say nobody, but 99% of guys really aren't doing that. Espe- especially as we get t- tested a lot, like in collegiate athletics and stuff, and it's just something that is kind of very looked down upon in what we do. But it is interesting to think about like...... what would, what would I be like if-

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:07

       Right.

   24. BNBo Nickal6:07

       ... if I was doing these things? Like, like, I, I can compete at such a high level already, and, and I have, you know... I think that my biggest asset in, uh, wrestling and in fighting is my mind. Imagine, like, my body was, was... And, and I think that, you know, with, with time, I just, I'm very disciplined and do things a certain way. Like, I'm gonna get to, uh, as close as that as I could be, but there is this other, like, level that's kind of unnatural, where it is interesting to think about, but... You know, while I'm competing and stuff, I just, I don't even really... It's, it's, it's obviously not an option, and, uh, you know? Uh, but at the end of the day, I'm probably gonna be c-... I've probably have competed against a lot of guys that are juiced up, and I will, es-... We'll see wha- what the UFC's drug testing program's like, since USADA's en- uh, over at the end of the year, but... It is what it is, man. It's just like, I- I'm, I'm pretty confident in myself regardless, and, uh, if I'm gotta fight a dude that's juiced up, um, and you're willing to kinda take a back door to try to get an advantage and win, I think that you're probably cutting corners in a lot of other areas as well-

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:12

       Mm.

   26. BNBo Nickal7:12

       ... which I'm not doing, so, you know, that's something that, um, I feel okay with.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:18

       The thing is when the guy's not cutting corners and juicing, and has talent, like-

   28. BNBo Nickal7:23

       I just think that if they're, if they're willing to do that, if we're willing to go outside the rules and do that, th- to me, that's kind of a, like, they're trying to get an unfair advantage. That's, like, kind of a, a character thing, right? Like, they, they're-

   29. JRJoe Rogan7:34

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BNBo Nickal7:34

       They wanna get that advantage, so, um, to me that means, like, they're fearful that they wouldn't be able to do it without it. Now, they're, you know... Yeah, they might be doing everything right, but I know that in their mind, like, there's a little weakness there, to me.
4. 9:25 – 11:15

   Why fighting is ‘insane’—and why Bo loves it anyway

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:25

      It's, it's the most insane thing to pursue for a career.

   2. BNBo Nickal9:29

      I know. (laughs) I think about it sometimes, and I have this part of me that's pretty, pretty rational, and I think like, uh, you know, "All right. I'm going out in front of all these people and, like, putting my health on the line, and this and that." And at the end of the day, it's like, uh, you know, you, you look at it from a business perspective and it's almost like a circus, right? Like, you know, I'm, I'm putting myself out there and it's entertainment, and... But like, I'm the one that has the real consequence and stuff, and I'm like, "Why am I doing this? This is so crazy." And then the, the other part of me, the bigger part of me, is like, "I love this shit."

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:03

      (laughs)

   4. BNBo Nickal10:04

      Like, "This is the best," like, "Let's do it again, again, again."

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:06

      So it's a constant battle-

   6. BNBo Nickal10:07

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:07

      ... inside your mind?

   8. BNBo Nickal10:08

      'Cause I, I don't know. I'm, I feel like in l-... In... Not, I don't mean to, like, toot my own horn, but I was, I'm a college graduate, I had a lot of opportunities. Like, there's a lot of things I could be doing. I could be pretty much doing anything. I could be, you know, coaching, I could be in business, I could be doing whatever I wanna b- do, but I'm choosing to do this. And, uh, there's a lot of, like, a lot more consequences, you know, on the, on the negative end of what I'm doing now, but I just freaking love it. I just love it so much. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:37

      Well, the, the victory, the feeling of victory has gotta just be the ultimate payoff for all that.

   10. BNBo Nickal10:43

       It's unreal, man. So, you know, I mean, you, you, you un-... You've fought, so you understand, but, like, when I was wrestling and I would pin somebody in front of, you know, 10, 20,000 people, and the crowd's going nuts, freaking out, this and that, it's like, that's an amazing feeling. And then come to the UFC, that same big stage, even, even bigger stage, millions of people watching worldwide, knock a guy out cold, it's like, "Whew." You can't beat that. It's amazing. (laughs)

5. 11:15 – 14:53

   From lifelong wrestling to MMA: the moment the switch flipped

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:15

      When did you, um, decide, or when did you even entertain the idea of transitioning to MMA?

   2. BNBo Nickal11:21

      So, I always loved fighting, and it was always, like, a fan of the UFC. You know, I probably started watching when I was, I don't know, 11, 12, and it was something my family... We would, we'd go to Buffalo Wild Wings on Saturday and we'd watch the fights, or, you know, we'd get the pay-per-view at home, and, uh, it was always something that I was like, "I, I could do that." And, like, me and my friends would, would fight and stuff, or we'd fight other kids just for fun, and so it was always something that was kind of in the back of my mind, and... You know, really, through, through high school, through early college, I was just, like, "I'm wrestling. I'm focused on wrestling." And then, uh, I did a camp at a, in, uh, Missouri, and I was teaching wrestling all day, and then this dad came up to me and was like, "Hey man, uh, we're doing a jujitsu class after this. Would you wanna come and try it out?" And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, sure." Like, "I'm down. Let's go." And, uh, so I, I go in, and they just kind of...I rolled around with all the guys, and I was like, "Dude, this is fun." Like, I- I love this. I'm really en- I, um, I have to fight. Ca- it was just, that one class kind of-

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:20

      One class?

   4. BNBo Nickal12:21

      Well, I was always interested in it, and I'd always play around, and then I actually, like, kind of... I hadn't done it for a while, like played around at all, and then the guy invited me, and I'm just, like, about it. Like, whatev- if somebody's like, "Yo, come do this," I'm like, "Let's go." And so, it was just super fun to do something different, and, uh, that was probably in between my sophomore and junior year, and I was like, "Dude, like, I'm- I'm gonna do this." Uh, uh, I'm gonna see this wrestling thing through to where I feel comfortable and- and ready to move on, and then I'm- then I'm fighting. Like, that's... I just knew I wanted to do it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:54

      So, was that jujitsu class, was that the first, uh, thing outside of wrestling you'd done in combat sports?

   6. BNBo Nickal13:01

      Um, I had done, like... So, this is actually kind of funny. When I was, like, 12 or something... No, I was probably younger. I was probably, like, oh, 10 or 11. There was a jujitsu tournament at a high school that, uh, that... My high school. So, my dad was a high school wrestling coach, and this jujitsu, it was like Naga or something, they wanted to put on a tournament at the high school. And so my dad set it up, like put all the mats in and stuff, and, uh, was like, "Why don't you enter?" I was like, "Okay." Like, "Let's g- I don't- I don't know anything. I've never trained, nothing." And he was like, "Just let- just do it." And so I did that tournament, and I actually won.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:33

      (laughs)

   8. BNBo Nickal13:33

      (laughs) And, uh... But I never trained or anything. I just wrestled-

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:36

      You just won with wrestling?

   10. BNBo Nickal13:37

       Yeah. It was like, I'd watched UFC, so I knew, all right, the guy's gonna try to, like, guillotine me, or he's gonna try to, like, get my back, and I... Just like, don't let him do that. And, uh, a- and- and again, I, like, played around. Just watching stuff on TV, you know, like, kinda... You can learn a few things. And so I, uh, did the tournament, and that- that was it. So I never trained or-

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:56

       Did you get any submissions?

   12. BNBo Nickal13:58

       Um... I think I submitted a kid. I'd- I- I, uh... Yeah. What's, uh, this called, but, like, in a front headlock? I forget the submission.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:06

       Oh, like a power guillotine?

   14. BNBo Nickal14:08

       Yeah, yeah. Like that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:08

       Yeah.

   16. BNBo Nickal14:08

       So I submitted the first dude like this.

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:10

       Yeah.

   18. BNBo Nickal14:10

       And then after that, I just kinda took the guys down and held them down and stuff. And actually, in the finals, it was r- a tough match, because I went against a kid who I had competi-... He wrestled as well, and I had competitive wrestling matches with him. Not that competitive, like, I would kinda whip him in wrestling, but he also trained jujitsu. And, uh, right away, he, like, pulled guard. And I was like, "What the f-" (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:31

       (laughs)

   20. BNBo Nickal14:31

       But- but he knew good wrestling, so, like, I couldn't really, like, do anything to him.

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:35

       Oh.

   22. BNBo Nickal14:35

       And then with... And so... And I didn't know the rules at all, so, like, he was winning on advantage. But then I- I somehow, like, got past his guard at the very end, and, uh, then they gave me a point and I won. But, um, really, that was it up until my, you know, second, third year in college and I did that class.

6. 14:53 – 18:27

   Learning striking fast: coaching, sparring partners, and obsessive film study

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:53

      Did you... When did you start striking?

   2. BNBo Nickal14:56

      Um, so I had a buddy, a good buddy. He's actually my... The boxing coach now at my gym. He was a collegiate national champion in boxing. And, uh, I did, like, pads with him in... Over COVID, like, once or twice, and, uh... But I really started actually training striking, like, getting into it, um, I started MMA training full time August of 2021. That's when I started striking.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      (laughs)

   4. BNBo Nickal15:23

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      That's insane.

   6. BNBo Nickal15:24

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      So you've really only been seriously striking for two years.

   8. BNBo Nickal15:27

      Yeah, yeah. That's, that's it. And, you know-

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:29

      (laughs)

   10. BNBo Nickal15:29

       ... I just... I feel like it's, it's... I just like it. It's fun, so I study it a lot. I'm-

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       Yeah.

   12. BNBo Nickal15:35

       ... always watching film and trying to learn.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:36

       Well, your last performance, man. Like, the- the- the thing about, you know, watching you fight inside the octagon, like, everybody knows how good of a wrestler you are. So they're looking for that. But in the last fight, I was like, "Oh, shit." Like, distance management, your ability to slide out of range and then explode back into range, and timing with punches. It looked like you've been boxing forever.

   14. BNBo Nickal15:58

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       It really... It was very impressive. And I know the guy came in on short notice.

   16. BNBo Nickal16:02

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       He's small for the weight class. But dude, you looked fucking great.

   18. BNBo Nickal16:06

       Thank you. Yeah, I felt like, you know, people say, you know, about the, about the matchup, this and that. It was like, well, I did what I was supposed to do.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       Yeah.

   20. BNBo Nickal16:15

       You know? And, uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:15

       It wasn't... Totally out of your control.

   22. BNBo Nickal16:17

       Yeah, yeah. And- and so I feel like I was just excited that I got to fight.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Yeah.

   24. BNBo Nickal16:21

       'Cause I thought I was d-... I was like, well-

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Who was supposed to fight you?

   26. BNBo Nickal16:23

       It was, uh, Treshawn Gore.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       That's right.

   28. BNBo Nickal16:25

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       What happened to him?

   30. BNBo Nickal16:26

       He hurt... I don't know. He hurt his wrist or his thumb or something.
7. 18:27 – 32:03

   Wrestling as a psychological ‘cheat code’ in MMA (and pacing for longer fights)

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:27

      When you have that wrestling base, it is such a giant advantage. I always tell any young athlete that, like, that is the 100% best foundation, because you get to choose whether a fight is standing or on the ground, and then there's the threat of that. And the threat of that has so many consequences, in terms of, like, how your opponent's gonna react-

   2. BNBo Nickal18:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:49

      ... and what they're gonna do, like you were talking about that feint. It's so gigantic, man. Like, because a guy always has it in the back of their head that you might take them down, but you don't ever have that.

   4. BNBo Nickal18:59

      No. Yeah, I'm not worried about it at all.

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:00

      So that's freedom.

   6. BNBo Nickal19:01

      Yeah. It's, it's ... I would say, in, in the actual fight, the biggest advantage is, is the psycholo- the, the psychology of them feeling threatened, feeling pressured, feeling nervous, like, "Shit, if I get taken down, like, I'm probably not getting back up. Like, I can't get taken down." Now that's what they're focused on, rather than winning the fight. And, uh, you know, of course, you know, the actual skills that come with that of being able to, to implement that as a game plan and, and do it i- is big. But, if you ever notice and you watch guys fight or, or compete, e- especially in training, if you see one guy's a little more tense, a little more nervous, a little, like, more reacting, like, that's such a big part of how much energy you spend-

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:41

      Mmm.

   8. BNBo Nickal19:42

      ... in, in, uh, you know, your overall... in, in the, in the, in the overall time of the fight. Like, I noticed when I got a lot better at wrestling and when I started pinning a lot more guys, was when I just relaxed. It was, like, this huge thing for me, because I, I pinned a lot of guys growing up and, and got a lot of pins, but then in college, guys get a little better, they learn how to hold you off a little better, and so I would use all my energy, all my strength trying to throw them on their back. And a lot of times I would, and so I'd get up, you know, a bunch of points, but then towards the end, I'd get a little tired and I wouldn't finish as strong. Instead of just, what I, what I figured out later in my career was, "All right, I'm just gonna relax, I'm just gonna move you around, just get into position, pull you, push you, fake." And I'm, I'm very relaxed. "Okay, you shoot. No worries. I'm gonna down block, run around you." And then, you know, when I have my opportunity, maybe you're fading a little bit, now, now I overwhelm you, versus trying to do that when we're both fresh.

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:34

      Mmm.

   10. BNBo Nickal20:34

       So, that's, that's where I feel like in a fight, it's 15 minutes, a really long time, I don't gotta overwhelm you in the first minute. I can, you know, just be relaxed, move, catch your jab, check your kicks, set you up, and then wham. And then-

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:48

       Mmm.

   12. BNBo Nickal20:48

       ... overwhelm you when, when the time comes. And, and I'm very relaxed, 'cause like you said, "What are you gonna... You're gonna shoot on me? Like, now, d- dude, you shoot on me, the fight's over. Like, I'm gonna win." I- as soon as I catch somebody shooting on me, it's like, "All right, you're done." So, that's what I, I, I want them to, but, you know, more than likely, that's never gonna happen, so they're gonna be very tense, nervous, worrying about that stuff. So, yeah, that, that's kind of, um, how I feel about, like, the wrestling advantage, right? Like, it's exactly like you said. It's so big to have that comfort and confidence.

   13. JRJoe Rogan21:16

       Yeah. And that knowledge of when to hit the gas and when to be relaxed, that plays such a critical factor when you move from three to five rounds as well. Like, so when a guy is a champion and a guy's been fighting most... like a Jon Jones-type guy who's been fighting five-rounders for the last decade plus, like, for a guy like him, he, he has almost, like, an internal sense of when to hit the gas and what to do and, you know, how much energy he has.

   14. BNBo Nickal21:44

       Yeah. It's such, it's such a big thing, man. You know, wrestling, the longest match is, is seven minutes. It's like, it's not even half of a normal fight. And then to go from 15 to 25, like, that's a huge jump. So, that's something I'm definitely preparing for in my mind. And I think that fighting is such a... it can become such an emotional thing. People get baited into fighting a certain way that it, it's so important to be disciplined, you know. Not only... Obviously, you have to... you actually have to have the, the training and the base and the cardio to be able to, to do that, but then to also implement it in front of millions of people and all the pressure's on you-

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:22

       Mmm.

   16. BNBo Nickal22:22

       ... and now there's this other guy who's a monster coming at you, trying to knock you out, it's like, you know, you gotta be a certain type of person, I think, and, uh, have a certain mindset to be able to be disciplined and calm and s- stoic under that, in that fire, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:38

       Yeah.

   18. BNBo Nickal22:38

       'Cause you could have all the cardio in the world, but if you go 100% for two and a half minutes, like, you can't do that for, for 25, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:47

       Right.

   20. BNBo Nickal22:47

       You're gonna lose it no matter what, even if you have the, the training. So, keeping cool under... in that situation I think is, is almost equally as important.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:54

       Yeah. We've seen that in so many fights where guys get really emotional and they really try to hit the gas in the first round, and then you see in the second round, they've already blown their wad. It's, it's rough.

   22. BNBo Nickal23:04

       Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad that I was able to learn exactly that in wrestling, where, you know, the stakes are lower and, uh, you know, you d- you don't really... Be- being tired in a fight is pretty much the worst thing that you could be, right? Like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:18

       Mmm.

   24. BNBo Nickal23:18

       ... you know, y- you got a guy who's a little more fresh than you who's popping you with jab, who's kicking your legs, you know, pushing you up against the fence. It's like, you do not wanna be tired.

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:28

       Yeah.

   26. BNBo Nickal23:28

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:28

       No, it's hell.

   28. BNBo Nickal23:29

       Yeah. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:29

       When you, when you want... Like, a good example is, like, Sean Strickland and Adesanya.

   30. BNBo Nickal23:33

       Yup.
8. 32:03 – 39:10

   Where MMA is heading: specialist superpower + elite ‘everything else’

   1. BNBo Nickal32:03

      Yeah, for sure. D- so tell me what you think of this, 'cause I- I kinda look at the sport and- and see the- the trends, and the way things are going. So, it started off in MMA, it was like, which martial art beat which, you know? And- and we kinda saw, like, the- the wrestlers had some success, but then Royce Gracie jujitsu was like, if you don't know jujitsu, you're gonna get destroyed, you're gonna get killed. And then it became, okay, now, if I know a little jujitsu and I can defend and then strike, like, that- that's the advantage. And wrestlers really took over in that stage. I feel like from there, it went to where ... a point where the most well-rounded guys were winning. Like, uh, you look at, like, George St-Pierre, right? Like, he's not a wrestler but super well-rounded, great jujitsu, great, uh, wrestling, great striking, you know, good conditioning. Like, it was like the well-rounded guys had- had the- the biggest advantage. I think now it's moving to a point where it's almost coming back, and I- and I use myself an ex- as an example, but you have to be a specialist in one thing where it's like, dude, like, that one thing is better than anyone in the world, and then everything else has to be elite. (laughs) Yes.

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:17

      It's like- like Isra Adesanya, like, he's the best kickboxer, like, one of the best kickboxers in the world, but he also has great take-down defense and- and you even see him throw up subs in some of his fights, things like that. Or, you know, you see guys where it's like, dude, you have this one thing, Khabib. This one thing, his grappling is so, like, outrageous, but then everything else is, like, freaking world-class. It's like, that- that's where I think it's getting, you know. Now these guys that have one thing that can kind of overwhelm and overpower somebody in a certain area, but everything else is, like, not as good but better than- Yeah.

   3. BNBo Nickal33:52

      ... average. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan33:53

      Well, I def- I definitely think there's a gigantic advantage to being elite in one specific area, whether it's wrestling for you, or if you look at Alex Pereira.

   5. BNBo Nickal34:02

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan34:02

      The kickboxing.

   7. BNBo Nickal34:03

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan34:03

      Like, his kickboxing is so fucking dangerous-

   9. BNBo Nickal34:06

      Right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan34:07

       ... that when ... Every fight starts on the feet, and when you have a guy that's a two division glory world champion, that just knocks people into other dimensions, and then now this guy is learning take-down defense and all those things, obviously he has vulnerabilities. And it's interesting to see, uh, particularly in the Jiri Prochazka fight, and then, uh, in the fight with Jan Blachowicz as well, he's learning how to defend himself on the ground, but it seems like it's limited, right? Like, it doesn't seem like he's very good at take-down defense. He's getting better at it, and it doesn't seem like he's very good at getting back up to his feet, but he's getting better at it. But at least now he's good at defending.

   11. BNBo Nickal34:44

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan34:45

       So if guys take him down, he defends, he survives, he doesn't get completely exhausted, and then next round he's standing up again.

   13. BNBo Nickal34:53

       For sure, and the thing too is like if you look at the match-ups, like when he fought Jan, Jan had to take him down. He's not gonna strike with him the whole time, and he actually, like, gassed himself out-

   14. JRJoe Rogan35:04

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BNBo Nickal35:04

       ... in- in that first round. He had a body triangle for almost five minutes, and, uh, he looks ... I've never seen him look that tired-

   16. JRJoe Rogan35:11

       Right.

   17. BNBo Nickal35:11

       ... in- in a fight. And so now these people that maybe don't have that wrestling base, tha- those years and years of reps, they have to fight him a certain way, but he's proficient enough to kind of, you know, hold them off. Now- now- now he's got the advantage, right? Like, it's like, you know, what are- what are you gonna do? That- that's how I wanna develop my style, ideally, is to where when somebody comes out to fight me, to ... the game plan, they're like, "All right, well, we obviously don't wanna wrestle with him. Dang, he also has knocked a lot of guys out. We don't wanna get hit. Oh wow, he catches every jab, he checks every kick. Are we gonna jab with him? Are we gonna kick with him? Okay, no. Okay, maybe we'll try to get him tired." I don't get tired. So that ... Like, that's- that's like, you know, the idea, like, where I wanna get to, right? If that makes sense.

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:55

       Yeah.

   19. BNBo Nickal35:55

       So, you know, I think a lot of fighters probably are thinking on a similar wavelength nowadays.

   20. JRJoe Rogan36:00

       I'm sure, but you also obviously have the advantage of having that superior grappling base.

   21. BNBo Nickal36:06

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan36:06

       And I- I- I just can't say it enough. I think that is the most important base in all of MMA.

   23. BNBo Nickal36:11

       Yeah, yeah. You know, it's ... It definitely (laughs) is- is an advantage. I feel like when I very first started in the sport and just started training, figuring stuff out, it was like e- e- even more, it was just like ... 'cause I was only shooting, only trying to hold guys down and stuff, and I was like, okay, like, I could probably do this to like some of the top guys in the world.

   24. JRJoe Rogan36:35

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BNBo Nickal36:35

       And, uh ...You know, I always wanna hold onto that. I always wanna make sure that ... That's why I still, I, you, you asked earlier, like, I still live in State College, Pennsylvania. I'm 10 minutes away from Penn State University. I train there, you know, three or four times a week with the, the best guys in the world wrestling, right? Like, I, I think that for me, I could take four weeks, five weeks and go compete with the best guys in the world in wrestling right now. And, uh, you know, what's, what's, what's a guy in MMA gonna do to me who he's never wrestled in his life? He's gonna, he's gonna do some sprawls for eight weeks and, and learn how to stand up? Like, good luck, dude. Like-

   26. JRJoe Rogan37:11

       (Laughs)

   27. BNBo Nickal37:13

       (Laughs) He's like, "Please, take these eight weeks and, and try to wrestle."

   28. JRJoe Rogan37:15

       Yeah.

   29. BNBo Nickal37:15

       "Like, it's gonna hurt you more than it help, it will help you."

   30. JRJoe Rogan37:17

       Right, and it'll take away from your time striking-
9. 39:10 – 48:31

   Building an MMA pipeline near Penn State: creating a custom training ecosystem

   1. BNBo Nickal39:10

      Right. You know, a lot of it is, is nobody's really done it the way that I have. You know, most people, they, they wrestle in college. Maybe they, they, you know, try to make the Olympic team, and now they go to fight, and they, they move, and they, they start at an MMA gym, right? What I've done, um, is I partnered up with, with Dan Lambert, American Top Team. We built a gym, uh, right near Penn State campus, and I ... The idea is, you know, that'll be a pipeline for any other wrestlers, uh, specifically Penn State wrestlers who wanna come and, and fight after they're done wrestling, right? So, you know, it's a, it's a good relationship there. Uh, but basically what we've done is I've brought in coaches for jujitsu, for Muay Thai, um, you know, r- really high-level guys in, in their specific disciplines, and so I'm learning from them. I'm learning boxing from, um, my boxing coach, and then, uh, for strength and conditioning, I use the, uh, training lab with Sam Calveita, so-

   2. JRJoe Rogan40:01

      Oh, great.

   3. BNBo Nickal40:02

      So he ... I've been using him since I was in college, so he has, uh, worked with Penn State, um, wrestling for a long time. He's known one of our coaches for 25 years, so when I started getting serious about my strength, conditioning, nutrition, and recovery, he was the guy I started using maybe as a junior in college. And so I have a good relationship with him. But most, for the most part, it's on me to organize it and kinda see what works best. And it, and it ... I did play around at the beginning, like, all right, how much wrestling am I gonna do? How many times am I gonna lift weights? How many times am I gonna do jujitsu? How many times am I gonna strike? And it ... I'm kinda continuously refining that process, and the idea for me is I'm the trailblazer. I'm the guy that's the first one to do this. Now all these guys that are coming behind me, um, my best friend Anthony Cassar, he just won his, uh, second pro fight. He's a 205-er heavyweight NCAA champ. Like, he, he started about a year later than me, so now he kinda gets the benefits of w- me tinkering for that year. And then the guys behind him, like, they'll get the benefits of, of us tinkering and figuring stuff out.

   4. JRJoe Rogan41:05

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BNBo Nickal41:05

      And we're, we're really trying to build, you know, a, a program. We're trying to build a team that, that we're, we're gonna do things a certain way. And, uh, you know, I ... It's fortunate and unfortunate because because I'm the first guy to do it, I'm gonna get the credit, and I'm gonna be probably, like, you know, everybody's excited about it and things like that, so I get benefits there. But I do have to, like, take the time and effort to test everything out and figure out what works and what doesn't. And, and, you know, there's so many variables, so. But, but I like that. It's- it's fun for me to do that. I would rather do that than just plug in somewhere and just kinda go about it in a very set way.

   6. JRJoe Rogan41:46

      Right, and that team's program-

   7. BNBo Nickal41:48

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan41:48

      ... might not be perfect for you.

   9. BNBo Nickal41:49

      Exactly.

   10. JRJoe Rogan41:50

       Which is d- which is so interesting because everybody's program is different. Like, Georges St-Pierre famously, later in his career, stopped doing all strength and conditioning.

   11. BNBo Nickal41:58

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan41:58

       He said effici- efficiency-

   13. BNBo Nickal42:00

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan42:00

       ... is more important than anything.

   15. BNBo Nickal42:01

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan42:02

       And, you know, in, in his mind, it was really just about s- specific training for MMA-

   17. BNBo Nickal42:07

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan42:07

       ... meaning just sparring, rounds in the bag, those, those type of things.

   19. BNBo Nickal42:11

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan42:11

       Hitting mitts.

   21. BNBo Nickal42:12

       Mm-hmm, yeah, for sure. You know, I think that everybody, you know, if, if you're a real true professional, like you got brought up GSP. GSP is the guy I look at as ... He was the first guy that came into MMA that was kind of a true professional about it, who was very organized, um, even in the media, like, well-spoken, per- and, and the way he trained, the way he committed not only his time training but his lifestyle. I felt like that aligned a lot, that aligns a lot with, with how I wanna do things in, in a professional manner. And so if you, if you are a true professional, you have to take ...... ownership of that and take responsibility. Like, if you're not getting what you need, you need to make an adjustment. And now, luckily, I have the freedom to be able to do that, and, and I'm fortunate that I had the foresight to kind of see that and know, all right, let's look at MMA. There's, there's a lot of people doing a lot of good things now, but it's been a sport for, for 20 years. Like, and so there's a lot of people that also don't know what's going on, that don't know what they're doing. I look at wrestling, which is one of the oldest sports in the world, there's so many tried and true methods of training and how it works and what's best for you. And not only have I been part of that for 20 years, but I was a part of the most elite organization and, and real, really dynasty in, in wrestling history, you know, with being, being on the Penn State team. Like, my coaches, they start at Penn State in 2009, they have notes for training sessions and recovery days for, uh, pretty much every day of the year since 2009. So they know what they did... What's today, December 7th, 6th? They know what they did December 7th of 2009, 2010, 2011, all the way until now, and they meet every day to discuss these things. So that's kind of, like, what I come from-

   22. JRJoe Rogan43:54

       Mm.

   23. BNBo Nickal43:54

       ... and what, what I know about training and, and how to organize a program and put things together. They know a lot more than me. I'm just kind of learning these things through osmosis, and now I'm trying to apply them to my career. And again, we're gonna continue to refine and get better at them. Um, by the time I'm done, hopefully I can give this system that I've created and, and what I've put together to a new generation of guys that are gonna do even bigger and better things than me. Hopefully they'll win more than me, make more money than me, be more famous. Like, that's what I hope for, for those guys that are, you know, coming. They can benefit from this.

   24. JRJoe Rogan44:28

       I love hearing stories like that about those notes. I love when you realize, like, oh, no stone unturned. It... Everything is covered, and that's how you become elite.

   25. BNBo Nickal44:39

       Yep.

   26. JRJoe Rogan44:39

       There's no, there's no elite by kind of covering some of the bases. It's covering every fucking base.

   27. BNBo Nickal44:45

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan44:45

       Everything. From nutrition to recovery to making notes and learning and adjusting to each training session and figuring out what went wrong and what went right, and how do you feel and how was the performance, and I love hearing shit like that. I love when, when it's just a full comprehensive analysis of every single aspect of it, and then you see these insane results-

   29. BNBo Nickal45:08

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan45:08

       ... like the Penn State team.
10. 48:31 – 57:42

    Fast-tracked into the UFC: early fights, Contender Series, and the Onewheel injury

    1. BNBo Nickal48:31

       Oh yeah, for sure. You know, it, it, it's been so interesting, my, my journey. I feel like I always try to look for people to compare and see how they did things and maybe take the positives and negatives and, and apply those to what I'm doing, and there really hasn't been that many people that have done what, what I've done. I, I'm 5 and 0 right now. I started training in August of 2021, MMA.

    2. JRJoe Rogan48:55

       That's hilarious.

    3. BNBo Nickal48:56

       Yeah.

    4. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       (laughs)

    5. BNBo Nickal48:57

       I know. I started... So I started training-

    6. JRJoe Rogan48:59

       That really is so funny.

    7. NANarrator49:01

       (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan49:01

       That is so fucking crazy.

    9. BNBo Nickal49:03

       Yeah, yeah. I know. It's wild.

    10. JRJoe Rogan49:04

        Well, Dana White originally was like, "Th- y-" He was like, "Wait a while."

    11. BNBo Nickal49:07

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan49:07

        Like, "I don't want you get to even in the UFC that quick."

    13. BNBo Nickal49:08

        Well, so that, like, it'll get, bring me around to, to the point you made. So what happened was I- I started training. Um, four weeks later, I was like, "Yo," like, "What's? I'm freak... Let's get a fight," like. So I took an amateur fight, and, uh, just some poor dude, like didn't know what he was doing. He was 0-0, or 1-0 amateur. I was 0-0, and, and he took the fight. And I think a lot of people, there was a lot of question marks. People were like, "All right, I don't know," like, "Let's see. Let's see what's up." And I-

    14. JRJoe Rogan49:35

        Right.

    15. BNBo Nickal49:35

        ... I choked the guy out, and I was like, "Let's go again." Four weeks later, I fought my second amateur fight, knocked the dude out cold, and then I, then I was like, "All right. Well, I wanted to, uh, put a show together in my hometown, in State College," and, uh, so I was working for a few months to get that going, and it just, there was... The PA Athletic Commission is... Working between my management team, the PA Athletic Commission, and Penn State, there was just too many moving parts. It was tough, and I was like, "I need to fight." So you know, I could wait like four more months and do this, or I could just get a fight. So then, um, I had trained another six months, six, seven months, and I was like, "Let's do it, pro debut," and that was in June of 2022, and uh... So I'm coming out against a, you know, another poor guy who thought, like, he was gonna knock me out or something, and uh, knocked him out in 30 seconds on UFC Fight Pass, and it did like the most views in UFC Fight Pass history. Um, like more than any other promotion. It was like something like three or four million views in the week, and so the ne- and, uh, it did a bunch that night.

    16. JRJoe Rogan50:39

        There it is.

    17. BNBo Nickal50:39

        Yeah, this is it.

    18. NANarrator50:40

        ... clean strikes for, for being such a

    19. BNBo Nickal50:43

        Wrestler. You can see- So this is eight months of training. ... the amount of work.

    20. JRJoe Rogan50:45

        It just, that's what's crazy is that you're, you're such a good striker so quick.

    21. NANarrator50:51

        Oh my God.

    22. BNBo Nickal50:51

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan50:51

        It's really nuts, man. It really is very, very unusual. But I just think it's gotta be the same mindset that allowed you to get elite at wrestling. You just program that into striking.

    24. BNBo Nickal51:01

        Yeah. That's exactly, exactly what it is, on top of good, high-quality coaches and training partners. Like-

    25. JRJoe Rogan51:08

        It's everything. Yeah.

    26. BNBo Nickal51:09

        That's everything. And uh, so, so after this happened, the next morning, UFC, Bellator, One FC, PFL, boom, boom, boom. Call it. "Let's do it, let's do it, let's do it."

    27. JRJoe Rogan51:18

        Mm.

    28. BNBo Nickal51:19

        And I'm like, "What the frig?" Like.

    29. JRJoe Rogan51:21

        (laughs)

    30. BNBo Nickal51:22

        I'm 1-0 pro. I've, I've, haven't even trained like a... I've been training eight months or whatever, nine months.
11. 57:42 – 1:02:24

    Why the UFC platform matters: audience, marketing leverage, and fighter pay reality

    1. JRJoe Rogan57:42

       Yeah. Well, I think you're doing a great job in that regard. And I also think, uh, th- I'm very happy that you decided to go with UFC, 'cause, no disrespect to the other organizations, there's very good fighters in the other organizations, but I often feel like they're wasting their career.

    2. BNBo Nickal57:56

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan57:56

       Because I see these elite fighters that are fighting in Bellator and PFL, and I'm like, "Hey, guys, no one's watching."

    4. BNBo Nickal58:03

       I know. Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan58:03

       You know, I mean, some people are watching, you're getting a little bit of a fan base. I, I don't want to disrespect.

    6. BNBo Nickal58:08

       Right.

    7. JRJoe Rogan58:08

       But there's a reality in that, you know, there's the XFL, there's the CFL, and then there's the fucking NFL.

    8. BNBo Nickal58:14

       Yep.

    9. JRJoe Rogan58:15

       And if you're not in the fucking NFL, are you really playing football?

    10. BNBo Nickal58:19

        (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan58:19

        You know what I'm saying?

    12. BNBo Nickal58:19

        That's how- that's how I feel, you know?

    13. JRJoe Rogan58:20

        That's just how it is, man. If you're, if you're the UFC champ, you're the fucking man.

    14. BNBo Nickal58:24

        Exactly.

    15. JRJoe Rogan58:25

        If you're the Bellator champ, I respect the shit out of those guys. I love them.

    16. BNBo Nickal58:28

        Absolutely.

    17. JRJoe Rogan58:29

        I mean, like, guys like Johnny Elblin.

    18. BNBo Nickal58:30

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan58:31

        Same thing.

    20. BNBo Nickal58:31

        Yeah, he's... I train with Johnny all the time. He's a freaking-

    21. JRJoe Rogan58:33

        He's a freaking animal.

    22. BNBo Nickal58:34

        He's a monster. To me, Johnny, Johnny's probably the, the best middleweight on the planet right now. And, uh...

    23. JRJoe Rogan58:38

        I really wish that guy would come to the UFC.

    24. BNBo Nickal58:40

        Yeah, you know, uh, I think that, um, you know, to me, when I was making that decision, it really wasn't a decision because I just, I knew, I was like, "I'm gonna be in the UFC." Like, that was always what I wanted to do.

    25. JRJoe Rogan58:52

        (laughs)

    26. BNBo Nickal58:53

        And, you know, I come from Penn State, we haven't had a match that wasn't sold out in, I don't even know, like, a decade. Uh, every, every match is in our small venue, Rec Hall, 7,000 people right on top of you, sold out in tents. We go to Bryce Jordan, which is our bigger venue, 16,000 people, sold out. We go to Carver Hawkeye, 20,000 people, sold out. We go to, uh, Gallagher-Iba, Oklahoma State, 20,000 people. It's like that was every weekend for me in college. Like, I love that.

    27. JRJoe Rogan59:18

        Mm-hmm.

    28. BNBo Nickal59:18

        That's like, "Frigging let's get it." You know? And, uh, you, you, you get a good atmosphere in these other, other organizations, but there's nothing like a UFC fight. Like, the production, everything that goes into it, the eyes. That's where I need to be competing. And-

    29. JRJoe Rogan59:34

        The promotion.

    30. BNBo Nickal59:35

        Yeah, I mean, it's incredible.
12. 1:02:24 – 1:09:50

    From UFC crowds to politics: Trump appearances, media narratives, and the ‘airports’ clip

    1. BNBo Nickal1:02:24

       Dude, were, did you, uh, were you at UFC Miami earlier this year?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:02:29

       Yes.

    3. BNBo Nickal1:02:29

       How crazy was it when Trump walked out?

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:02:31

       Insane.

    5. BNBo Nickal1:02:32

       I've never experienced that.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:02:33

       Insane.

    7. BNBo Nickal1:02:33

       It's like I was like, "Whoa."

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:02:34

       Bro, it was more crazy when he walked out in Madison Square Garden.

    9. BNBo Nickal1:02:37

       Really?

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:02:38

        Yes.

    11. BNBo Nickal1:02:38

        Geez.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:39

        The Madison Square Garden one la- the last fight was fucking bananas, dude.

    13. BNBo Nickal1:02:43

        It's unbelievable. I've never heard a crowd like that.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:45

        It was like over a minute of people screaming at the top of their lungs as he's walking in.

    15. BNBo Nickal1:02:50

        Nuts.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:50

        This country is fed up.

    17. BNBo Nickal1:02:52

        (laughs) Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:53

        This is a-

    19. BNBo Nickal1:02:53

        Seriously.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:54

        ... fed up country.

    21. BNBo Nickal1:02:55

        Yeah, that-

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

        Where, you know, the mainstream media can say all the shit they want and they're trying-

    23. BNBo Nickal1:02:59

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:59

        ... but the people aren't buying it.

    25. BNBo Nickal1:03:01

        No. You, and th- that's the perfect example right there is, you know, 20,000 people or whatever, like losing their minds when the dude's walking-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:09

        Yeah.

    27. BNBo Nickal1:03:09

        ... to the cage. It's like there's no fighter that gets that, but yeah, the country it's like you can tell. You just talk to people or, or see what's going on, it's like you could tell.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:18

        Well, you know, there's people that voted for Biden that are doing it now.

    29. BNBo Nickal1:03:22

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:22

        Th- they're like, "I s- what did I do?"

Episode duration: 2:09:16