JRE MMA Show #160 with Francis Ngannou

1. 0:00 – 0:51

   Catching up and setting the stage: from UFC champ to boxing spotlight

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) All right, we're up. What's up, man? Good to see you.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou0:15

      Not much. Good to see you, too, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      You have, uh, had a lot of experiences since the last time I saw you.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou0:21

      (sighs) Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      A lot of things happened.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou0:25

      That's why, like, uh, always about writing my book and chapter keep adding up, adding up, adding up. And, uh... Yes, every time you feel like your choice may be in the beginning or in the middle.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:39

      Yeah.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou0:40

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       I don't think so. (laughs)

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou0:42

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       (laughs) Uh, y- you're definitely only in the middle.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou0:45

       Yeah, in the middle.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       W- Somewhere... I mean, it's not the beginning, but, uh, it's a lot of experiences.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou0:51

       Yes, man.

2. 0:51 – 1:52

   Tyson Fury fight becomes real: Saudi-driven matchmaking and disbelief from fans

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:51

      So, tell me about leading up to the Tyson Fury fight.

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou0:56

      (clicks tongue) Oh, the Tyson Fury fight, that was great. You know, I was just there living the dream. You know, get this big moment, get that fight that I've been, I've been waiting for four years.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:07

      The fight that everybody said you were never gonna get.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou1:10

      Yes, that I was never gonna get.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:10

      Which is crazy. Like, thank God for the Saudis, because-

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou1:13

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:13

      ... they, they are making things happen, which is really incredible.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou1:17

      They are making things happen.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:18

      Incredible.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou1:18

       Uh-huh. And it's not like, "Who is this? Who is who? Who is that?" You know? It's like, "Okay, we want it to happen. Then make it happen."

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:27

       Yeah, because everybody wanted to see it happen. But it was one of those things where everybody dismissed it. Everybody said, "That's not gonna happen. Tyson Fury's the heavyweight champion, why would he fight a guy who doesn't have any professional boxing matches? That's crazy. Yeah, that's not gonna happen."

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou1:41

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:41

       And it happened. And then, everybody said, "You didn't stand a chance," and then when you knocked him down the second round, everybody was like, "Holy shit." (laughs)

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou1:50

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:50

       And when you were dancing over him when he went down?

3. 1:52 – 3:41

   ‘Zero chance’ doesn’t exist: threat assessment, power, and respect in fighting

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou1:52

      (clicks tongue) Yeah. But, you know, I think, uh, a lot of people, uh, do mistake something, you know? And I always tell people, like, "Not because you're a fighter, that you walk in a bar and there is this guy coming to you, maybe this fat guy coming to you, and then you stand there, and because you're a fighter, don't think like he's a threat." Everybody could be a threat. You better step, take two step back, and then like see your distance and get ready to defend yourself. You know, you don't... Uh, if everybody hits you, anybody hits you, you're gonna get hurt.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:27

      Right.

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou2:28

      You know?

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:28

      True.

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou2:29

      So, yes, I might not have been, uh, doing boxing. I'm not a boxer, but still, I'm a fighter. And even if I wasn't a fighter, you know, I can hurt and I can harm somebody.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:40

      You're a big motherfucker. (laughs)

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou2:42

      (laughs) I'm a big guy. So, I was watching it and people was like, "No, he stand no chance. He has zero chance." I'm like, "There is not a fight on Earth that zero chance. That element of zero chance doesn't exist." I mean, um, if you look at it, I'm a man, guy, and then two men together, someone might have more techniques, might know the sport, but even if I never been in the gym, you still better watch out. I still have a chance.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:10

      Yes.

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou3:10

      Maybe not as much, maybe not equal chance, but I still do have a chance.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:14

       But you can't dismiss someone like you and drop their, drop your guard and-

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou3:18

       No.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       ... and think that you don't have any chance.

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou3:20

       You shouldn't dismiss anybody.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       Yeah. No.

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou3:22

       You know? We used to be in the... I, I have seen fight that people show up and then they pretend like, oh, they're gonna fight. They have stone in their hand, and if you dismiss them because you think, like, "Oh, he's a small guy," he hit you with the stone in his hand (laughs) .

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       Right. Right, right, right.

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou3:38

       Whereby the time you find out that he has stone in the hand, you are in the ground.

4. 3:41 – 6:59

   Game-planning Fury: southpaw switching, pacing, and ring-vs-cage adjustments

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:41

      Right. Exactly. Um, but it m- it was very clear to me, uh, that you had some interesting strategies when you went into that fight. First of all, you were, you were fighting a lot of it in southpaw. Why, why did you decide to do that? Was that something that you, you guys had devised before the fight, you thought it would be an interesting strategy?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou4:01

      Uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:01

      Or is that just, like, the way you like to box?

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou4:04

      I like to box like that, but I also thought it was a strategy. Um, uh, that it would be a good strategy as well, because, like... Basically on this, uh, Tyson Fury fight, I think the southpaw was a big component in that fight because every time that I realize, uh, that every time that I switch to southpaw, he was thinking. But when I switch back to orthodox, he was pressing. So, when I wanna take a break, I switch to southpaw-

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:34

      Mm.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou4:34

      ... a little bit. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:36

      What was it like to... I mean, there's obviously you've had many MMA fights, you've been very successful, UFC heavyweight champion as an MMA fighter, but what was the difference in the feel of, like, going into a professional boxing fight with a guy like Tyson Fury, who is the heavyweight champion of the world and one of the greatest of all time? I mean, o- uh, he's absolutely one of the greatest heavyweight boxers ever.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou4:59

      Yeah. But he was completely different, you know. Uh, the environment is different, the organization is different. It's different to be, uh, step in the ring, uh, for the first time. Okay, you have all this spotlight on you, but you're in the ring. Feels different. Sometime you are in the cage, you're used to the cage, you lean on that cage-

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:21

      Mm-hmm.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou5:22

       ... you have that feeling. You, you, you grab the, the cage. All those stuff.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:26

       Also, your shoes on.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou5:27

       Yes. Uh, and then, in the cage, you know that you can, you can do more, you're, uh, you can wrestle, you can do this, and you're comfortable with that. But you're, you're in the ring for the very first time, somewhere that you've never been, it feels different. And then you're thinking like, "Oh, man, how am I going to do? Am I going to be able to do three rounds? Am I going to be able to do four rounds? I don't know. I'm gonna find out just now." There's no way back. You're gonna find out.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:01

       That's crazy.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou6:01

       So, every, by every round, you have to think about like, "Okay, how am I doing? This the first round, then second round. Okay, so...... this is the fifth round, I'm not too bad, so I think I'm gonna get there. You know, just go like that-

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:15

       So you were concerned-

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou6:16

       ... round after round.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:16

       ... about endurance.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou6:17

       Yes.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:17

       Yeah.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou6:17

       You're con- very concerned about endurance. It was 10 rounds and I didn't know how I gonna be feeling after the third round.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:24

       You turned it on in the eighth round. In the eighth round, you hit him with some big shots.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou6:28

       Mm. Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       That was one of your best rounds.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou6:31

       Yeah, the, uh, yeah, the eight round was pretty good. Then I get little... then I pull my, my feet off the gas on the ninth round, rounds. And then the 10th round, so I'm like, you know, like, "Oh, I feel good. This is the last round, right? Feel good." That's when I started to do like those, this Superman punch, all this stuff. For me, it was already a win. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:57

       (laughs) Yeah, that's... You shocked the world, that's for sure.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou6:59

       Yeah.

5. 6:59 – 10:54

   Training reality: sparring approach, short camp window, and learning on the fly

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:59

      Did you have any, um, mock fights in the gym? Like did you bring any professional boxers and have like try to go eight, 10 rounds in the gym?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou7:10

      Sparring?

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:11

      Yeah.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou7:12

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:12

      But like with no headgear, like smaller gloves. Did you do anything like that-

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou7:16

      No.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:16

      ... replicated an actual professional boxing match?

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou7:19

      No.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:19

      No?

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou7:20

       Uh, we just do like a normal sparring, uh, have d- uh, different sparring partner sometimes who push me but, um, we didn't do anything like that. You know, as a MMA fighter, we used to spar without gloves, without headgear and stuff, but you get into boxing, everything is so strict, so specific. And then you get to the point that you kind of like ask yourself, like, "Why taking the chance to hurt now and get pu- and get pull up out the fight?"

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       Right.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou7:51

       You know, I'm just going to train, I trained the best that I could, uh, that I can, then I will get there, see, figure out what's happen.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:00

       And so but from the time the negotiations started to the time of the fight, how much time did you have to prepare for this?

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou8:07

       For the negotiation?

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:08

       No, so you had the negotiations and then once it was signed-

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou8:11

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:11

       ... how much time did you have to prepare for the actual fight itself? And how mu- were you preparing already, hoping you were gonna have a, a boxing match?

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou8:19

       Yeah, but it's different to like thinking that, "Oh, I might have a, uh, a boxing match, I wanna have a boxing match," than when you have a boxing match and knowing who you are going to fight.

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:31

       Mm.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou8:31

       It's, it's something different. You know, you prepare... The real preparation start now. And, uh, between the moment that we signed the fight to the fight itself, it was, uh, over three months because I know that he wasn't my, my fan, you know, and, uh, I didn't have any, um... And it's not like I was in the gym training boxing every day, so it was basically four months. So I took-

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       That's crazy.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou8:58

       Yeah, I took it, a, a moment for a pre-camp. Uh, I came back here, uh, because I was in Cameroon at time, then I came back here. My team and I, we work on like everything, start like a pre-camp, you know, just train to get in shape, start like sparring, and then we started, we started the sparring with three rounds.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:19

       Wow.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou9:20

       The first sparring was like three rounds, move around, see-

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:24

       Wow.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou9:24

       ... how we started to go, uh, work round after round, you know.

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:28

       What it m- s- what I thought when I saw the fight is imagine if you had just gone into professional boxing like 10 years ago, how well you would do. If you... No MMA, no kicking, no wrestling, just professional boxing.

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou9:47

       Uh...

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:47

       For you to do that well-

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou9:49

       I don't, I don't-
6. 10:54 – 15:40

   After the final bell: judging controversy, why the rematch stalled, and Fury’s showmanship

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:54

      Yeah. What was the experience like when it was all over? Like, what did it feel like when you just went 10 rounds and a lot of people, including myself, thought you won?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou11:05

      Yeah. Oh, I feel, I f- I f- I feel very great, you know like, um... Regardless of the result, for me, uh, knowing what I was going through, what was in my mind, like, "What's gonna happen into this fight?" First round, second round, then I get in the 10th round. Good. And I pretty... I feel like I wasn't doing bad. So for me, that was a win, that was a satisfaction, you know.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:33

      Right.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou11:33

      The result was other part of it which didn't matter most. But I knew already that when or if ever we get... because I couldn't guarantee that we would get in the 10 round, but if ever we get there, I wasn't expecting to win.

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:51

      When you dropped him-

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou11:51

      Definitely not.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:53

      When you dropped him in the second round, I jumped off the couch.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou11:55

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:55

      I jumped in the air.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou11:58

       I will say something. You know, like, I want this from the moment that they accepted the fight, that they signed the fight, because I think, um, I was under- very underestimate, you know. They didn't know that I would... I could've...... do something, you know?

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:18

       Mm-hmm.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou12:19

       If they have known that beforehand, maybe this fight wouldn't have never happened-

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       Mm.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou12:26

       ... because they would have see a risk and they wouldn't wanna take that risk. So this was basically, like, less re- zero risk for the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:35

       And it probably would have been different, too, because he, there was no footage to prepare for you.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou12:40

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:41

       Right? Like, the only footage that he could prepare was y- watching you fight in MMA.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou12:46

       Yes. He was, um ...

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       There it is. Ar- why were you dancing in front of him?

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou12:57

       When we start the fight, when the referee say, uh, "Okay, you guys go to your corner," he said, "Let me take you to school."

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       Hmm.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou13:06

       So that was, the dancing was like, "I think you're, um, you're a bad professor."

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:12

       (laughs)

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou13:12

       "You're a bad teacher." (laughs) That, that was the only reason why I did that.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:19

       He's a funny guy, man.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou13:20

       He, he's funny. He's very entertaining.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:22

       Yeah. Oh, he's so entertaining.

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou13:24

       You know, like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:24

       He's so entertaining.

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou13:25

       He's just a show guy-
7. 15:40 – 23:19

   Switching to Anthony Joshua: expectations shift and fight-week ‘games’ in Saudi

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:40

      So, so you go from that fight to the Ant- Anthony Joshua fight.

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou15:44

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:45

      So tell me about the preparation in leading up to that fight.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou15:49

      In fact, the preparation for the Anthony Joshua fight, then I started, you know, I, after having, like, four months of training camp for the Tyson Fury fight, I had this feeling, you know, and then-

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:02

      (sniffs)

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou16:02

      ... I get little, um, I get a little confident. Now I know how he works, like, 10 rounds, and then, uh, was pretty good. You know, the Tyson Fury fight, um, I think I spar, I sparred, like, 10 rounds for, like, two weeks. Yeah, like, four, four sparring of 10 rounds barely, but the Ty- the Anthony Joshua fight, six week before the fight, I was... No, I wasn't 10. No, the Tyson Fury... Yeah. Y- uh, four weeks before the fight, I was already doing, like, 10 rounds and I was feeling good, you know, even little lighter. But things plays out different and I think, um, unlike the Tyson Fury fight that nobody expected me to do anything, here, they were expecting me to do something. So things play, played out little different. And then we get in the fight week and then, um, every time that we're gonna do something in the fight week, uh, whether it's media, they're gonna pick me up and then I get there, have to wait, like, one hour and half before he arrives. And that was, like, uh, maybe the third day of the week that Dewey, Dewey Cooper, he said, oh, he start to get really, uh, mad, uh, upset about it, like, "Yes, this is how they get, they do to get fighter tired." But at the time, I didn't know what was going on, you know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou17:40

      So I'm like, "No, come, uh, relax, Dewey. It's okay." You know, I didn't know until we get to the fight day. Fight day, receive a email, pickup time. I mean, this one thing am- among others. Pickup time, uh, 10:30, from the hotel. And then when they say 10:30, by 10:20, there is a car in your door, waiting. We go to the supposedly fight, fight time, mean- between midnight to 1:00 AM. We get to...... to the arena, 10:45. There is a producer come into the locker room, say, "Oh, guy. We are l- running late on the broadcast. Now, we are ha- we, uh, we gonna go around 1:45 each." I'm like, "Okay, 1:45." It's 10:45, three hours. (sighs) Okay. You know?

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:43

      So what do you do? Do you eat? Do you sleep? What do you do when you know you, you have three more hours?

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou18:48

       You don't know. You just stay there and then you have like a drug test guy around waiting for you to pee.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:55

       How far before the fight do you eat?

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou18:58

       Usually, maybe like four, five hours. Yeah, like maybe five to six hours and then you get some snacks in between, you know. And then, um, yeah. It was 1:00, around 1:30 that he was, Anthony Joshua arrived. I saw on screen. I'm like, "So we're supposed to fight at 1:45. He's arriving at 1:30. What does that mean? He's going to..." So-

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:33

       So they're playing games.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou19:35

       Until we, we fight at 1:00... At 3:30. We leave the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:39

       Oh, wow.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou19:39

       ... locker room at 3:30. I have been in Saudi for almost two months training to fight between midnight and 1:00.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:48

       Mm.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou19:49

       That was my be- my training time. By 2:00, 3:00, I'm in bed asleep.

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:54

       So they wanted to keep you anxious, drag it on psychologically, put it in your head you don't know when you're gonna fight.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou20:03

       Pretty much.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:04

       Yeah.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou20:04

       But even at that time, I didn't know what was happening.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       Right.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou20:08

       It was after, after everything that I'm like, "What's going on?" Because I get in the f- I get to the point that I was so tired. I was in the locker room, eating meat then sit down, feeling asleep. Then I tell Eric, Eric Nyksick, like, "Bro, something wrong." (snaps fingers) I fe- I'm asleep. I feel like I wanna sleep. Like, I'm sweating. But we just keep, we just keep doing. So that fight, um... I mean, not to say Anthony Joshua couldn't win me. You know, I think if there is somebody that you, uh, you can lose against him, he, he is, he is the guy, you know? And, uh, he's the, one of the best of doing it, you know?

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:56

       (sighs)

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou20:57

       But... And this is definitely not on him because he wasn't the guy that was sending all those email, was organizing. So I'm not blaming about anything. But the organization, bro, nah. They did quite some stuff that wasn't fair, which on the Tyson fight was perfect. Everything was perfect because I wasn't a threat. I wasn't... Nobody cares about me. Everything was organized. We get there in the locker room, I think was two hours before the fight probably. Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:31

       Hmm.

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou21:32

       So then that, I'm like...

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:35

       Well, Anthony Joshua is a veteran, you know? He's been in the boxing game for a long time and he knows-

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou21:41

       For sure.
8. 23:19 – 29:49

   Rewatching the Joshua knockout: confusion, memory gaps, and ‘plain fatigue’

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:19

      Um, have you had a chance to go back and watch the Anthony Joshua fight?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou23:24

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:24

      What-

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou23:24

      I mean, I didn't... Yes, I, I watched it. What was your question?

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:30

      Um, wh- wh- w- w- d- what do you remember about the fight? What was different watching it?

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou23:36

      Oh. Even like, feeling it, it wasn't... Even before I went to watch it, I get in the, uh, ring, was, wasn't lo- was, you know, wasn't feeling myself. And the first round, when he knocked me down, like, I fell and I was like, "Did I slip?" Like, "What exactly knocked me down, make me fall?" Like, this punch, because I felt the punch, but it wasn't the punch that would knock me, knock me down, you know? So that's when I really get confused at that time. I'm like, "Damn. What?" But this is the thing. From that moment I get knocked down with the punch that-... wasn't that hard because-

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:27

      You don't think it was that hard?

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou24:29

      No. He hit m- ... He hits my hand before hits my face, and I felt it. I felt the punch, but I wasn't on the floor. The first one.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:39

      Mm-hmm.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou24:41

       And then, uh, I st- ... I get count, then stood up. We finished the round. I went on my corner. But by the time I went on my corner, I never came back from that. I kept going and I remember being in my corner and Dewey was like, uh, "Don't go on southpaw. He's waiting you on southpaw. Do this jab, do this jab." That was it. That wa- ... That's from there, I don't remember when I left the stool to get in the second round.

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:10

       Well, that was probably from the big punch in the second round too, right?

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou25:14

       Yeah, but I'm talking about the first round.

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:16

       Right. But e- ... The memory afterwards is always gonna be cloudy after a knockout, especially a bad knockout like that.

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou25:23

       Yeah, but I'm remember- ... I remember exactly what's happened until we get to the stool. I remember being there.

   15. JRJoe Rogan25:31

       Mm-hmm.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou25:32

       Like, ho- ... Star- ... Having blurry vision, like the guy was in front of me. The c- ... Uh, my, uh, team was in front of me speaking to me and then the voice was getting distance.

   17. JRJoe Rogan25:47

       So you think there was something wrong?

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou25:50

       I don't know if it's the... was the fatigue. I don't know what was it, but something wasn't right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan25:55

       So, something wasn't right on... Forget about the punches he landed.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou25:59

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan25:59

       Something else was wrong. Is that what you're saying?

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou26:02

       Yeah. Something was wrong.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:04

       Do you think it's something you ate? Do you think it was something-

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou26:08

       I don't know. I, I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan26:09

       ... that someone gave you?

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou26:10

       I have no proof. I don't know if maybe it's-

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:13

       Did you get tested after the fight?

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou26:15

       No. Maybe it's the fact that I can... um, I get there at that time.

   29. JRJoe Rogan26:20

       So just the fatigue and the anxiety-

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou26:22

       I don't... Yeah.
9. 29:49 – 33:00

   Experience gaps and career calculus: why he chose big fights over ‘learning fights’

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:49

      What would you do differently if you could do the Anthony Joshua fight again?

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou29:54

      That's the problem. We did everything right. Like-

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:02

      Everything right in preparation?

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou30:03

      In preparation, we did everything right. You know, sometime... You know, like, when for, uh, for example, I, um, I fought Stipe. I went back and I could have list a... I could make a whole list of what I did wrong, what I could have done better, and that's why, like, even after that fight, my next fight again Derrick Lewis was so bad because I was still working on the list of what I have done, done wrong.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:31

      Hmm.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou30:32

      But here, i-... we were very disciplined, we did everything and everybody was professional. You can't say, n- uh, "This person did this wrong. This should've be like this, this should've be like that." (sighs) And-

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:49

      It's so different, too, because you're going from no professional boxing fights to two of the ver- very best, not just in the world, but the, two of the very best ever.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou31:00

      Absolutely.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:00

      Anthony Joshua, Olympic gold medalist, elite fighter, and incredible athlete. I mean, he's so good. So, did you think, like, uh, at all about having fights with maybe some guys that were below that level to get more experience? Like, after the Tyson Fury fight, maybe fighting a guy who's, like, ranked 15th or 16th, you know...

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou31:25

       Mm. I never thought about that, you know-

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:28

       You just went for the money.

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou31:30

       Uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:30

       And the money in the big fight. The big fight is obviously-

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou31:33

       Yes, want a big fight. So, like, uh, for example, um, after the Tyson Fury fight, if I go for another guy, uh, top 15, like, what's, what's the goal here? I mean, again, I'm not 20 years old, I'm not 25, that I have a plan to go up the ranking-

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:53

       Right.

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou31:53

       ... and get to the championship. I want to fight.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:58

       Just get that money.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou32:00

       Yeah, get the money. I get the good-

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:02

       Get the big fights.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou32:02

       ... the, the big fight out of the big fight, you know? So, that was, that was the goal.

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       Yeah. Well, you achieved-

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou32:09

       You know?

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:10

       ... that goal.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou32:10

       Because, like, first of all, going to the Tyson Fury fight, you didn't know if there was a plan after that, if there was another fight after that. And then after the Tyson Fury fight, the next fight that you have a call for was a Anthony Joshua fight.

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       Were you trying to get a different fight after the Tyson Fury fight? Like, after the Tyson Fury fight, were you trying to get a rematch or were you just willing to take whatever they are offering you?

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou32:36

       The rematch was there. We know we had a rematch, but he was going to fight Usyk first.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:41

       Hmm.

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou32:42

       It's a thing that's supposed to happen in December and he couldn't.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:45

       Right, he got caught.

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou32:46

       Yeah, he couldn't, he couldn't fight in December, so I wasn't really on something. I was just there and then I get the offer of Anthony Joshua. Then I'm like, "Let's go."
10. 33:00 – 36:38

    What’s next: PFL MMA return, Renan Ferreira, Saudi cards, and Jon Jones cross-promotion talk

    1. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       So, where do you stand now? What do you, what are you planning on doing now?

    2. FNFrancis Ngannou33:04

       What do I plan on doing now? I think I still have couple in me.

    3. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       Boxing fights?

    4. FNFrancis Ngannou33:09

       Yes, I have couple. Yeah, couple boxing fight. Ba- yeah, basically boxing fight. I have couple MMA fight and I think, um, I even think, like, uh, I'm gonna fight MMA fight by the end of the year, uh, with PFL. I'm gonna fight, um, might have to fight in Saudi again.

    5. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       Really?

    6. FNFrancis Ngannou33:28

       Yes.

    7. JRJoe Rogan33:28

       Well, one of things that has been discussed that, um, a- apparently the UFC might be open to because the Saudis throw around so much money-

    8. FNFrancis Ngannou33:37

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan33:37

       ... is, uh, the potential of a, um, a joint promotion-

    10. FNFrancis Ngannou33:42

        Cross-promotion.

    11. JRJoe Rogan33:42

        ... a cross-promotion with you versus Jon Jones.

    12. FNFrancis Ngannou33:46

        Make it happen.

    13. JRJoe Rogan33:47

        That is what the world wants to see. Because when you have a guy like yourself that, you know, knocks out Stipe, becomes the undisputed UFC heavyweight champion and then through negotiation only decides to relinquish the belt, everybody, even though Jon Jones is the champion now, everybody's like, "Yeah, but you didn't win the title against the champion." And you were the most compelling fight in the heavyweight division, for sure, for Jon Jones.

    14. FNFrancis Ngannou34:12

        Hmm. Well, uh, that's what I wish, but, you know, in this, um, these, this, this takes a lot more than what I want or what I wish-

    15. JRJoe Rogan34:25

        Right.

    16. FNFrancis Ngannou34:25

        ... to happen.

    17. JRJoe Rogan34:26

        There's a lot going on.

    18. FNFrancis Ngannou34:27

        Yeah, there is a lot going on.

    19. JRJoe Rogan34:29

        So, tell me w- what, uh, what is the status of your deal with the PFL now? So, how does that work?

    20. FNFrancis Ngannou34:35

        It's working pretty good. We have a good relationship. I have some fight, um, again, I will be fighting by the end of the year and then, uh-

    21. JRJoe Rogan34:45

        Do you know who you're fighting?

    22. FNFrancis Ngannou34:48

        I think, Renan Ferreira is the guy.

    23. JRJoe Rogan34:51

        Yeah.

    24. FNFrancis Ngannou34:51

        Uh-

    25. JRJoe Rogan34:53

        That's the guy that knocked out Ryan Bader.

    26. FNFrancis Ngannou34:54

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan34:55

        He's dangerous. That guy is-

    28. FNFrancis Ngannou34:56

        He's dangerous.

    29. JRJoe Rogan34:56

        ... he's legit.

    30. FNFrancis Ngannou34:57

        I've been telling people about this guy for, what, almost two years?
11. 36:38 – 46:11

    PFL landscape talk: Cedric Doumbé, officiating controversy, and elite striking translating to MMA

    1. FNFrancis Ngannou36:38

       Um...I don't, again, it's not finalized yet but I think, uh, Cedric Doumbé will be on that card.

    2. JRJoe Rogan36:47

       Doumbé. I love that dude.

    3. FNFrancis Ngannou36:48

       Yeah. (laughs)

    4. JRJoe Rogan36:49

       I love that dude. I've had him on the podcast before.

    5. FNFrancis Ngannou36:52

       He's an entertainer too.

    6. JRJoe Rogan36:54

       (sighs) He's a comedian.

    7. FNFrancis Ngannou36:55

       He's a, he's a comedian. He's crazy.

    8. JRJoe Rogan36:56

       Yeah. He's funny.

    9. FNFrancis Ngannou36:57

       Right?

    10. JRJoe Rogan36:57

        He's very funny but, uh, goddamn he can fight.

    11. FNFrancis Ngannou36:59

        Oh, no. He can fight.

    12. JRJoe Rogan37:00

        How crazy was that fight?

    13. FNFrancis Ngannou37:01

        He can, he can back up what, whatever he say, you know.

    14. JRJoe Rogan37:03

        Oh, yeah. Oh, he's an elite kickboxer, elite kickboxer.

    15. FNFrancis Ngannou37:06

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan37:07

        He trained at my gym in LA when I had my gym in LA. Uh, my gym in LA, his trainer came when he did my podcast and he had a workout session.

    17. FNFrancis Ngannou37:15

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan37:16

        And man, his workout sessions are crazy. It's so cardio-intensive. Th- They're doing, like, sprints on the treadmill and they run to the heavy bag, sprints on the heavy bag, run back to the treadmill. I was like, "Damn." Like watching that I was like, "No wonder why this guy has a crazy gas tank."

    19. FNFrancis Ngannou37:35

        Well, he was a champion for, at, uh, Glory for a long time.

    20. JRJoe Rogan37:38

        Glory. Yes.

    21. FNFrancis Ngannou37:39

        So, and that, that wasn't-

    22. JRJoe Rogan37:40

        Not just a champion, but-

    23. FNFrancis Ngannou37:40

        ... that wasn't a mistake.

    24. JRJoe Rogan37:42

        Well, he was knocking everybody out. Not just knocking everybody out but the way he did it, like, he melted guys.

    25. FNFrancis Ngannou37:47

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan37:48

        He put pressure on them and i- knockout power but intelligence. And, uh, just great technique but the cardio was crazy and I remember thinking, like, "This dude doesn't get tired." And then watching him train, I'm like, "Oh, well there it is."

    27. FNFrancis Ngannou38:01

        (laughs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan38:02

        I mean, he's not just doing, like, normal mitt work. Like I've, I've seen other guys work out where they do mitt work, they do the things. Like his stuff is cardio-intensive, man. He has ... He wants to have a full gas tank when he gets in there.

    29. FNFrancis Ngannou38:15

        Yeah. He know, he know, he knows what he's looking for.

    30. JRJoe Rogan38:18

        How crazy was that ... How crazy was that fight where they called the fight because he stepped on a piece of glass inside the cage?
12. 46:11 – 51:25

    Fighter pay and incentives: PFL point system, win bonuses, and fairness in judging

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:11

       Do you understand the PFL's point system? Do you understand that system?

    2. FNFrancis Ngannou46:16

       What do you mean?

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       You know how they have a points, like, if you get a knockout in the first round, you get one point or three points, or...

    4. FNFrancis Ngannou46:24

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:24

       What the fuck are they doing?

    6. FNFrancis Ngannou46:25

       That, that-

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:25

       Why are they doing that?

    8. FNFrancis Ngannou46:26

       ... that's, that's for the regular season. I think it's, um, just to push, push people for a better fight. Everybody knows that you get a knockout, you get... You deserve something better. You get a finish, you get something-

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       Right, but you can't always get a finish.

    10. FNFrancis Ngannou46:41

        ... but when you get a knockout...

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:41

        But what if you're fighting a guy that's, like, your level? Like, you're both elite and you're, you're both fighting in, like, this incredible fight, you shouldn't be penalized 'cause you can't take out a fighter who's the best in the world in the first round. That seems crazy to me.

    12. FNFrancis Ngannou46:54

        Yeah, but either way, if you win a fight, you're winning something.

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:58

        Yeah.

    14. FNFrancis Ngannou46:59

        You just wi-... You just win more. Uh, it's like, uh, having a win bonus or something.

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:04

        I don't like win bonuses either.

    16. FNFrancis Ngannou47:06

        Or, or, like...

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:06

        I hate win bonuses.

    18. FNFrancis Ngannou47:08

        Yeah, me too. I don't like win bonuses.

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:09

        I don't like-

    20. FNFrancis Ngannou47:09

        I don't l- like win bonuses.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:10

        I like boxing set up better where you have a contractual c-... You have a contract, you're gonna get paid $10 million, whatever it is. That's what you get. You don't get $10 million, but you only get $5 million if a shitty judge gives it to the other guy-

    22. FNFrancis Ngannou47:26

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:26

        ... which we've seen so many times in the UFC. Guys lose half their paycheck because of a bad decision.

    24. FNFrancis Ngannou47:32

        Yeah, but what does that benefit? Who benefits from that?

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:35

        Well, who does it benefit? I don't know who it benefits. I don't think it benefits anybody. I think it's bad for everybody. I think it's bad for the audience 'cause they're like, "What?" 'Cause it makes them angry. It's bad for the fighter, for sure. If a fighter loses their paycheck, loses half their paycheck f- because of a bad decision.

    26. FNFrancis Ngannou47:51

        How about the promotion?

    27. JRJoe Rogan47:53

        I don't even think it's good for the promotion. I think it's unfair. I don't think it makes any sense. No guy is t- trying... At the elite level, everyone's trying to win. They're all trying to win.

    28. FNFrancis Ngannou48:02

        Yes, yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan48:03

        No one's not trying to win.

    30. FNFrancis Ngannou48:04

        Abso- absolutely.
13. 51:25 – 53:24

    Why PFL mattered: Saudi investment, PFL Africa chairmanship, and building a talent ecosystem

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:25

       No, I agree, I agree. And so now, the PFL and Bellator are one organization now, right? The PFL acquired Bellator?

    2. FNFrancis Ngannou51:34

       Yes.

    3. JRJoe Rogan51:34

       Is that what's going on?

    4. FNFrancis Ngannou51:35

       Yes.

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:35

       Do the Saudis have something to do with that as well? Don't they own part of it?

    6. FNFrancis Ngannou51:40

       They invest in the PFL, yes, in the main PFL, because there is a main PFL, uh, a house PFL that has, like, the PFL and the Bellator now.

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:49

       Hmm.

    8. FNFrancis Ngannou51:50

       Yeah. And then now they are having, like, a P- regional PFL, like a PF- PFL MENA that launch this year, and then PFL Africa, that's launching next year.

    9. JRJoe Rogan52:01

       And that's through sure?

    10. FNFrancis Ngannou52:02

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan52:02

        And so you're a part of that as well, right?

    12. FNFrancis Ngannou52:04

        Oh yeah, that's, that was the biggest, uh, I think that was the biggest reason for me in that contract, the PFL Africa part was the most important one in that contract. You know? Like, um, before that, I was trying to, like, even to the UFC I have requested to be, like, "Oh, I wanna be the UFC ambassador in Africa. I want to do something out there." I'm like, "Oh no, we don't know. You know, this is not... We don't..." And then I get the PFL, they say, "Okay, we doing this, we'll do that." They show me the road map, like, "Okay, we launch PFL Africa 2025, you are the PFL, uh, Africa chairman." I'm like, "Which extent?" Because I don't want that bullshit of paper chairman or whatever it is.

    13. JRJoe Rogan52:50

        Mm-hmm.

    14. FNFrancis Ngannou52:51

        Like, at which extent, like, what exactly are you seeing in PFL Africa? And then they pl- put it out and give, show me some element. I'm like, "Good, then I'm on board."

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:03

        Hmm. Well, that is one good thing about going over to the PFL, because you, you have so much value to them. Like, for you coming over, you were the undisputed heavyweight champion of the UFC. You come over to the PFL, everybody knows who you are, and now it elevates the PFL. So it's nice 'cause it'll allow you to do more things.

14. 53:24 – 1:35:18

    Life philosophy and identity beyond fighting: solitude, passions, and creating opportunity through production

    1. FNFrancis Ngannou53:24

       And, uh, to be honest, one thing, I have a healthy relationship, you know? It's, it's peaceful. Get to the point of my life that I really get tired or sick of drama.

    2. JRJoe Rogan53:36

       Hmm.

    3. FNFrancis Ngannou53:37

       (laughs) Sometime I just get into something, into some... Find myself in the middle of some drama, and then I just walk away. Whatever you wanna say, you say. Some- you might say I disrespect you. You say, oh, I this, I that. Bro, I don't have so much energy to give into that.

    4. JRJoe Rogan53:58

       So that was part of what was going on with the UFC? There was a lot of drama.

    5. FNFrancis Ngannou54:01

       That's, yeah, that's... And that will take a lot out of you. You get to the point that, yo, I'm like, whew, I want j- I just want this to be over.

    6. JRJoe Rogan54:09

       Right.

    7. FNFrancis Ngannou54:09

       I just wanna get... To be over.

    8. JRJoe Rogan54:12

       Right.

    9. FNFrancis Ngannou54:13

       Get back to my life, but you are already in the middle.

    10. JRJoe Rogan54:16

        S-

    11. FNFrancis Ngannou54:16

        Whether you wanna go back, you have to deal with drama. If you have to go forward, you have to deal with drama, so you better keep going forward. (laughs)

    12. JRJoe Rogan54:23

        Yeah, especially, I mean, like, y- how much time do you have left, Raul? I mean, how many more years you think you're gonna be fighting?

    13. FNFrancis Ngannou54:28

        Yeah. And doesn't matter. I mean, uh, soon 38, and I think I'm gonna be... I really wanna retired in my, um...... as I said, I want to leave the sport before the sport leaves me.

    14. JRJoe Rogan54:43

        Mm. Smart.

    15. FNFrancis Ngannou54:44

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan54:44

        Yeah.

    17. FNFrancis Ngannou54:44

        So I'm thinking in my average, like, 41.

    18. JRJoe Rogan54:49

        So three more years?

    19. FNFrancis Ngannou54:50

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan54:51

        Yeah.

    21. FNFrancis Ngannou54:51

        41, by that.

    22. JRJoe Rogan54:53

        Do you have a thought of how many more boxing fights versus how many more MMA fights you want to do?

    23. FNFrancis Ngannou54:59

        Mm... Not exactly. I think I will take it how, how it comes.

    24. JRJoe Rogan55:05

        Mm.

    25. FNFrancis Ngannou55:05

        I'll take it how it comes.

    26. JRJoe Rogan55:07

        And so, the next fight will be MMA definitely?

    27. FNFrancis Ngannou55:09

        And-

    28. JRJoe Rogan55:09

        Or-

    29. FNFrancis Ngannou55:10

        And maybe-

    30. JRJoe Rogan55:11

        ... maybe boxing?

Episode duration: 2:14:15