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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #173 with Benny "The Jet" Urquidez & William "Blinky" Rodriguez

Joe sits down with retired kickboxer, martial arts choreographer, and actor Benny “The Jet” Urquidez, and his brother-in-law, kickboxer, martial arts instructor, and community leader William “Blinky” Rodriguez. https://www.youtube.com/@BennyTheJetUrquidez https://www.bennythejet.teachable.com https://www.bennythejet.com https://www.cisgla.org Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Stream UFC 324 Saturday at 9PM Eastern – only on Paramount+. Visit https://paramountplus.com/ufc.

Joe RoganhostBenny UrquidezguestWilliam Rodriguezguest
Jan 21, 20261h 59mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 1:22

    Rogan’s Jet Center memories and why Benny & Blinky are pioneers

    1. JR

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

    2. BU

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Gentlemen, what's happening?

    4. WR

      Ah, hey, Joe.

    5. BU

      Where do we begin?

    6. JR

      Where do you begin?

    7. BU

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      Let me tell you, when I first came to Los Angeles in 1994, there was two places that I had to go. One of them was the Comedy Store, and the other one was the Jet Center. And I started training at the Jet Center in '94, before you guys shut down, because you had the earthquake-

    9. WR

      Right

    10. JR

      ... and you had the roof damage. So I was there before that happened, and I took your classes. I took your kickboxing classes because I remember it was very scary, 'cause you had a bunch of gang members in there.

    11. WR

      [chuckles]

    12. JR

      'Cause you were doing that, like, sort of outreach program where you're helping young gang members.

    13. WR

      Yes.

    14. JR

      So I had to spar with gang members. So I was training at the Jet Center until it shut down, and then I went briefly when you guys reopened in North Hollywood. I went to that place for a little bit, too.

    15. BU

      Ah, the Jet Gym.

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. BU

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      But then, uh, I started training at Majiro Gym-

    19. BU

      Uh-huh

    20. JR

      ... which is in the, in the Valley.

    21. BU

      [clears throat] Yeah.

    22. JR

      But, uh, legends. You guys are legends, man.

    23. WR

      Well, thank you, Joe.

    24. JR

      True pioneers in martial arts.

    25. WR

      For you to remember was, was, uh, really humbled me. You remembered-- you mentioned my, my son and why I was starting that.

    26. JR

      Yes.

    27. WR

      And you don't even know what it's grown into since that day, that you've seen what's going on.

  2. 1:22 – 3:56

    Blinky Rodriguez on losing his son and building a violence-intervention mission

    1. JR

      Well, tell, tell the story about your son and how that whole thing started.

    2. WR

      Well, you know, unfortunately, in some communities, drive-bys aren't uncommon, and so when it becomes a generational curse, you know, and, and, and, and kids are getting killed sometimes randomly, um, that happened to me. It came knocking on my door in a valley that's got two million people. Knocked on my door, and, and, uh, I was just... I was- I'm gonna put it this way: I had a calling on my life to, to do something about it, because it became a situation where, where families and community was like, "Well, yeah, well, that's what happens in our community." And I was saying, "That is not what happens in our community. This is our community." And so I began to move, I began to move, ironically, with some churches that, uh, that were- that had that kind of ministry in their ministry, and marked peace marches, et cetera. But, uh, my son got shot while he was learning how to drive a stick shift.

    3. JR

      Wow.

    4. WR

      And, uh, it took his life, and, and that's not normal, and that's not-- that should not be common. And, and, uh, so I'm still at it.

    5. JR

      You're still doing that?

    6. WR

      Still going on, thirty-six years later, put an organization together, and re- real, some with real lived experience, others with degrees, and really put together a whole, a nonprofit that speaks directly to it, where it's at. And, and, uh, so at the end of the day, um, yeah, it's over when we say it's over. You know what I mean?

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. WR

      And, and, and ironically, what led the charge for me, at least, Joe, was forgiveness. The forgiveness that only God can give. I gotta tell it the way it is. And, uh, that forgiveness ended up taking me to the neighborhood that killed my son, and we had a huge meeting in that, that neighborhood, in the park, and a peace treaty kicked into place. No mothers crying, no babies dying. So to this day, I still continue to press in with a whole different, uh, how would I say, integrated service delivery, but keeping violence in the middle of it and dealing with it.

    9. JR

      That's awesome.

    10. WR

      But, but yeah.

  3. 3:56 – 5:22

    Classic kickboxing stories: Theriault KO details and the Jet Center’s role

    1. JR

      It's, and it's awesome that you brought them to a place like the Jet Center, where they can learn discipline, learn how to fight, build real confidence, you know, learn real martial arts skills, and also m- real martial arts mentality, especially when it's coming from guys like you. You know, I mean, I remember when you knocked out Jean-Yves Theriault. Jean-Yves Theriault was the fucking man.

    2. WR

      [chuckles]

    3. JR

      He was the man.

    4. BU

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      Everybody was terrified of that guy.

    6. WR

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      And you, I believe you knocked him out with a left hook. Is that correct?

    8. WR

      Left-- right leg, left hook.

    9. JR

      Yeah. [chuckles] The combo.

    10. WR

      You know, the more traditional shoulder kind of sweeps-

    11. JR

      Yeah

    12. WR

      ... but you turn it over with the instep, and you know what I'm talking about.

    13. JR

      Yes, sir.

    14. WR

      And you reset and come back with the money.

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. WR

      But, uh, it was, uh... And he's a bad dude. He went on to have a great career.

    17. JR

      Amazing career.

    18. WR

      You know?

    19. JR

      Yeah, I mean, he's one of the all-time greats in kickboxing.

    20. WR

      Oh, yeah.

    21. JR

      You know?

    22. WR

      No doubt.

    23. JR

      And, you know, it's just... I think it's important for people to recognize the, the real pioneers, and Benny, you were a real pioneer. I mean, there was no one like you when you emerged. When you emerged in the kickboxing scene, the karate scene, there was no one like you. And, you know, you went undefeated, and you took on people of all sizes, and to this day, there's amazing highlights of you on the internet that people still bring up because, you know, you were... I mean, you were fighting Thais when you had no training like that. You know, you, you were getting low kicked by those dudes and still found out a way to win. It's pretty crazy.

  4. 5:22 – 7:02

    Urquidez’s first Muay Thai experience: not knowing the rules, learning the hard way

    1. BU

      Well, you know, [chuckles] I tell you, it was, uh, when my brother asked me: "Would you want to fight Tha- uh, Thai?" You know, and I said, "What's Thai?" He said, "Muay Thai." And I said, "I'll fight him." I honestly, I thought that was his name. [laughing]

    2. JR

      [laughing]

    3. BU

      I had no idea what Muay Thai was at the time, and so, um, we, we took it on, and, uh, it's-

    4. JR

      Where was the first Muay Thai fight that you had?

    5. BU

      Matter of fact, it was at the Olympic Auditorium, um, when we first fought-

    6. JR

      In Los Angeles?

    7. BU

      ... Ernest Hart. Yes.

    8. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BU

      Ernest Hart fought the first, uh, Thai champion, and that was the main event. And, uh, I tell you what, when I first got kicked in the legs-... uh, my eyes bulged out of my forehead.

    10. JR

      [laughing]

    11. BU

      I said, I mean, I've- I have strong legs, but I've never had anybody try to break my legs. And so it was a rude awakening, but it was the best thing that ever happened to me, 'cause he took me to the streets. He really did, because when he started elbowing, kneeing to my face, and I said, "Oh, you wanna fight that way? Okay." I didn't understand it. I just thought that, all right, there's a free-for-all.

    12. JR

      Did you know what the rules were?

    13. BU

      No.

    14. JR

      Oh, that's crazy! So you didn't know they were gonna use elbows or knees?

    15. BU

      No.

    16. JR

      That is crazy.

    17. BU

      All I knew is Muay Thai. [laughing]

    18. JR

      [laughing]

    19. SP

      Norong Noi.

    20. BU

      Yeah.

    21. SP

      Norong Noi was, was the guy that he fought that night.

    22. JR

      Well, he was-

    23. SP

      Lomphra Ngstah stadium champion.

    24. JR

      Yeah, he was a great champion as well.

    25. BU

      Oh, without a doubt. [chuckles]

    26. JR

      That's so crazy that you didn't even know what you were in for. Like, who, who was the promoter that set that up?

  5. 7:02 – 11:13

    The Hawaii ‘no rules’ era: no weight classes, elimination brackets, and survival tactics

    1. BU

      Uh, you know, actually, believe it or not, uh, my brother, Arnold, was asked, you know... he says, he was calling me the world champ because in '73, it was called full contact karate, and Blinky and I, we, you know, we went to Hawaii, and no rules, no weight divisions, no nothing. So for the-

    2. JR

      How much did you weigh back then?

    3. BU

      145.

    4. JR

      Wow!

    5. BU

      And so I end up beating-- actually-

    6. SP

      160. [laughing]

    7. BU

      And, and Blinky, there was four of us left after we fought five, six times on Friday, and then we fought a couple of more times on Su- uh, Sunday. We-

    8. JR

      You fought two days?

    9. BU

      Yeah.

    10. SP

      Yeah.

    11. BU

      There was that many... no rule, it was just weight division. I mean, there was no weight division. It was just-

    12. JR

      Brackets.

    13. BU

      That's it. So Blinky ended up fighting. There was four of us. I, I fought Bernard White, and Blin- and I told Blinky, I said: "You know what? This guy," now he's, you know, you know, he's two hundred and forty-five pounds, Dana Goodson, six foot three, and I said, "Blinky, they don't wanna see you and I fight. They, they wanna see David and Goliath. They wanna see me fight him." And I said, "So if you don't knock him out, you're not gonna win, 'cause this guy, they're, they're kind of, you know, wanting to keep him up." And, uh, sure enough, then... and I said, "Blinky, if you don't knock him out, you don't, you know, hurt him. [laughing] Hurt him for me," so, 'cause I knew I was gonna fight him next.

    14. JR

      [laughing]

    15. BU

      And so that's what it was. [chuckles]

    16. SP

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      So he was a hu- two hundred and forty pounds?

    18. BU

      Yeah, two hundred and forty-five pounds.

    19. JR

      And you were 145?

    20. BU

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Wow!

    22. SP

      I, I... you could pick him up and throw him around, so I, I, I got him tired.

    23. JR

      [laughing] So what were the rules? There was no rules at all.

    24. BU

      No rules.

    25. JR

      So could you stomp on the ground? Could you soccer kick? Could you do all that?

    26. BU

      You know what? There was no rules. I actually threw him. I pinned him on the ground. He started to roll me over. I spit my mouthpiece out, I bit him on the chest. [laughing]

    27. JR

      Oh, my God.

    28. BU

      He palm strike my face, and we got up, and my, my teeth mark was on his chest. He said, "You bit me!" And I said, "I was getting tired." [laughing]

    29. JR

      So w- how-- did they, did they have submissions? Did anybody know submissions back then?

    30. SP

      No.

  6. 11:13 – 14:45

    Inventing shin guards and reverse-engineering Muay Thai from film

    1. BU

      Basically, uh, somebody had black and white, was filming, uh, and I kinda looked at it, and I went to, uh, an old gentleman that used to do, uh, uh, actually do clothing and shoes and so forth, in this leather shop, and I asked him, I said: "I want to protect my shins." He's an old, older man, and I said: "I want to protect my shins. Do you have something?" And, and he brought out some pads, and I said, "Yeah," and I told him I want to put it around my shins. So I s- I created the first, uh, shin guards.

    2. JR

      You were the guy who invented the shin guard?

    3. BU

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Oh, that's great. [laughing]

    5. BU

      And I told him, "How do we keep it together?" And he said... And he's the one that brought out the Velcro.

    6. JR

      Ah!

    7. BU

      And so he put on, he, uh, he sewed on Velcro on it, and so I-... so I ended up asking him: "Can you make more of them?" And I started giving them to him. That's how, because we were doing, uh, we were doing leg checking, 'cause we were watching them, but it was hurting us. Like, what the heck?

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. BU

      You know, how did they do it? And then-

    10. JR

      So you were, you guys were doing it bare shin.

    11. BU

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      So bare shin, leg kicking, training hard.

    13. BU

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. BU

      That's how... We didn't know any other way.

    16. JR

      So what were the Thais doing back then? How were they protecting their shins?

    17. BU

      Well, you know what they had? They have a spray, numbing spray.

    18. JR

      Ah.

    19. BU

      They were spraying their shins and so-

    20. JR

      Like lidocaine or something like that?

    21. BU

      Yeah, they were putting stuff that kinda like you couldn't, they couldn't feel it. [lips smack]

    22. JR

      Ah.

    23. BU

      They couldn't feel, uh, the impact.

    24. JR

      So after you invented shin guards, is that how shin guards made their way to Thailand?

    25. BU

      I'll put it this way. When I went to Thailand and to work with some of the Thais, I, I looked at them, I said, "Oh, they're finally..." 'Cause they didn't have them. I said, "Oh, you got shin guards here," and I was surprised.

    26. JR

      Ah.

    27. BU

      And but a lot of them didn't even use them still.

    28. JR

      Right.

    29. BU

      And some of these, uh, high, um, up in the hills, the way they train, they didn't train with shin guards. They just sprayed their shins, and oh, my God.

    30. WR

      Kick banana trees.

  7. 14:45 – 19:16

    Japan, belts, and the evolution into modern kickboxing (PKA/WKA/K-1 roots)

    1. BU

      Espe- especially in Japan, this is basically when we really started, 'cause they started bringing us back there, one right after another. They started bringing us back there after, uh, I, you know, I took their belt, and they couldn't believe an American just went in there and took their belt from them, and they didn't, they didn't like it, they didn't want it, and they kept having us come back, taking that, trying to take that belt back.

    2. JR

      In Japan?

    3. BU

      Never happened. In Japan.

    4. JR

      Wow!

    5. BU

      Never happened.

    6. JR

      Wow. And you gotta realize, like, back then, this is, like, post-Bruce Lee movies.

    7. BU

      That's right.

    8. JR

      So martial arts had exploded, karate exploded worldwide. Everybody wanted to learn martial arts, and Japan was kind of at the forefront of the kickboxing movement, right?

    9. BU

      That's right.

    10. JR

      'Cause they had, they had had a bunch of Muay Thai guys fight Japanese guys, and the karate guys lost to the Muay Thai guys, and then they had to adjust, and then they got rid of elbows and created kickboxing because they wanted more excitement. They wanted to get rid of the clinch and get rid of the elbows. And so-

    11. BU

      True

    12. JR

      ... and then K-1 was formed out of that.

    13. BU

      That's right.

    14. JR

      It's like you're, like, really, like, patient zero.

    15. BU

      [chuckles]

    16. JR

      Like, you know what I'm saying?

    17. BU

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JR

      Like, the real mixed martial arts movement really began with you guys.

    19. BU

      True.

    20. JR

      Wow.

    21. BU

      It's, uh-

    22. WR

      Yeah, you know, I was just gonna say, you know, there wa- there was a, there was a phase there, 'cause you mentioned Chuck Norris earlier, that he raised money in Detroit, and he had done Enter the Dragon.

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. WR

      So he had that notoriety, and he had a cattle call. So fighters came from all over Southern Cal to his dojo in Santa Monica, and it was, it was single eliminations to the knockout to see which five guys would represent LA, and the same was going on in, in New York, the New York Dragons, Detroit, the Detroit Dragons, DC, the DC Dynamos, and, and, and then the, the, the Texas Gladiators. Those were the teams people were vying for, and we, we participated. I ended up becoming the middleweight starter, Benny was the lightweight, a- and then Steve Sanders, who was an old name in traditional karate, three of his guys from the Black Karate Federation, Ernest "Madman" Russell, Danny Ferguson, Sugar Bear, we were the LA team. And the, what, what's crazy is that you won as a team. If you went out there and knocked the guy out or you got knocked out, they got 25 points.

    25. JR

      Ah.

    26. WR

      And, and so the accumulation of, of points, that you would get $1,500, but the losers got 700. So, so that, so that took off, and the last, uh, tournament or fight show that they had was at, at, uh, in Detroit. A- and after that, that's when, you know, things started going another direction.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. WR

      But it's just interesting, the way that it evolved.

    29. BU

      Right. Have you, have you ever heard of the PKA?

    30. JR

      Yes, sure.

  8. 19:16 – 25:34

    Low kicks, calf kicks, and why modern MMA “rediscovered” an old weapon

    1. JR

      Well, what's interesting now is, like, that is one of the primary weapons of MMA now, is the calf kick. It's interesting, right?

    2. WR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      Like-

    4. WR

      Well-

    5. JR

      ... 'cause people kind of slept on the calf kick-

    6. WR

      Mm-hmm

    7. JR

      ... for a long time.

    8. BU

      Well, people that are dancers, they like to dance in the ring.

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. BU

      You went for the calf, and they were flat-footed, and they couldn't dance no more.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. BU

      So you wanna stop somebody that was dancing, well, you go right for the calf, and they become flat-footed. But if you, if you had some people that would have good right hands, you kick them in the thighs, they couldn't lean on that front leg to hit with a right cross. So there was, there was a really, a method of, of, uh, combat, of warriorship in there that we, we develop over the years, that we knew w- how to take power from the, from our opponent.

    13. JR

      It's just crazy that it took so long for MMA to recognize the potency of the calf kick. Because, you know, I talked to Daniel Cormier, who was a w- two-division world champion. I talked to Michael Bisping.

    14. WR

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      Michael Bisping became a middleweight world champion, never got calf kicked his entire career. 'Cause the calf kick-

    16. WR

      Mm

    17. JR

      ... kind of emerged after he became a champion. Now, what's really interesting is what's happening right now. So in kickboxing and in Muay Thai, people thought, "Oh, the calf kick doesn't work there because the Thais know how to block it." Well, the Japanese fighters, the Kyokushin guys, are now dominating some of the Thai guys because they kick calves.

    18. WR

      Mm.

    19. JR

      There's this bad motherfucker from Japan named Yuki Yoza.

    20. WR

      Yes.

    21. JR

      And this... You know who he is?

    22. WR

      I do.

    23. JR

      That dude is lighting these people on fire-

    24. BU

      Mm!

    25. JR

      ... because he's just constant combinations and chopping at the calves, and chopping from the inside and the outside-

    26. WR

      Mm

    27. JR

      ... with every combination. And he's crippling Thais to the point where they can't move, and they're getting-

    28. WR

      Mm

    29. JR

      ... beat up and knocked out. There's another guy, Masaaki Noiri, and he's doing the same thing.

    30. WR

      That's right.

  9. 25:34 – 33:34

    Why American kickboxing stalled: TV rules, promotion, and what fans want to watch

    1. JR

      ... unfortunately, what happened was PKA karate became a thing, was remember you had to get a minimum amount of kicks on the ground?

    2. WR

      Yes.

    3. BU

      Eight, eight kicks per round.

    4. WR

      You had to do math while you're fighting.

    5. JR

      Yeah, but it was also-

    6. WR

      I'm sorry

    7. JR

      ... a lot of the guys were not good kickers, and so what it became is guys who weren't that good a kicker, and then they would box, and it was kind of sloppy boxing, and so it lost a lot of the a- appeal to the Am-

    8. WR

      Very true

    9. JR

      ... American public. Which was unfortunate, because if they just allowed low kicks from the beginning, and we got to see the guys from Japan, we got to see the guys from Thailand, we got to see you guys do all your thing, it would've probably flourished in America and been as big as MMA. 'Cause this is something that I've been trying to push with the UFC, 'cause, you know, one championship fight, they do a real good job with it, where they have-- they'll have Muay Thai fights, they'll have kickboxing fights, and they also have MMA, and they also even have grappling competitions. But I've been trying to say to the UFC, like, if you, like, a lot of times people boo when people go to the ground. Well, here's a solution: have some fights where it's just stand-up fights. Have some fights, MMA gloves, Muay Thai rules, you know, where you don't go to the ground. Like, have that. I mean, it would be incredibly exciting.

    10. WR

      Mm.

    11. JR

      And have, you know, like, or you could even do a whole promotion of it. But in America, unfortunately, kickboxing, because of the PKA, and what'd they call it? The Kick of the '80s. Remember back then?

    12. BU

      [chuckles] I sure they called it that.

    13. JR

      That's what they called it, right?

    14. BU

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      PKA karate, the Kick of the '80s.

    16. BU

      That's right.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. BU

      Brad, Brad, Bad Brad Heften.

    19. JR

      Bad Brad Heften.

    20. BU

      Uh.

    21. JR

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there was a, there was a lot of guys that were really good. Uh, Jerry Trimble, he was really good.

    22. BU

      Yes.

    23. WR

      He was, he was very good.

    24. JR

      I met him once on a, a set.

    25. WR

      [clears throat]

    26. JR

      I think we did, like, a commercial together or some shit. I forget what it was.

    27. BU

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      But I met him when... He's d- been doing a lot of acting.

    29. BU

      Oh, yeah.

    30. JR

      But those guys were really good. Of course, Rick Rufus. Rick Rufus was outstanding.

  10. 33:34 – 43:35

    Ground fighting, crowd impatience, and the lost ‘warrior code’ in combat sports

    1. BU

      Mm-hmm. But, you know, everybody's looking for the next, uh, biggest thing, and so far, you know, I mean, where do you go from there? From UFC, where you can throw, and you ground and pound, and so forth. When you do technique standing, everybody sees it, but when it goes to the ground, everybody's looking at the monitor-

    2. JR

      Right

    3. BU

      ... because they can't see nothing.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. BU

      And so a lot of people were thinking it's boring, but they didn't realize there was a skill on the ground, but nobody seen it, and it looked boring. But when you got up... So they were paying some of the fighters to stop the opponent standing-

    6. JR

      Yeah

    7. BU

      ... instead of going to the ground.

    8. JR

      Well, there's a lot of promoters that definitely encouraged-

    9. BU

      Mm

    10. JR

      ... fighters to not go to the ground.

    11. BU

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      And discouraged them when they did go to the ground. 'Cause they knew they could take a guy down and just hold him down and beat him up a little bit and win, and the promoter's just like, "We're not interested in you." Which I think is not fair, because it's all about fighting, and if a guy can hold you down, you have to figure out how to get up. And if, if otherwise, we're pretending. We're pretending these techniques work. Because if a guy is, like, a world-class wrestler, some Division I All-American, and he takes you down and holds you down, you gotta figure out how to handle that, otherwise we're lying. Because the sport is about combat. It's about fighting. It's the sport of fighting. Fighting is a man that can hold you down. If he could hold you down and beat you up, why is the referee standing you up? Why is the referee giving you an opportunity to fight back? You have to figure out how to get up. You have to figure out either how to submit him off your back, sweep him, or stand up. Those are the options. A referee standing you up 'cause the crowd's booing? That's crazy.

    13. BU

      Yeah. You know, that's really true, though. It's, uh... I, I think that the crowd, you know, they're, they wanna see action, and they can't see it on the ground, but they don't realize there's a lot of action going on the ground.

    14. JR

      There's a lot of action, yeah.

    15. BU

      But they don't see that. They wanna see... You know, it's almost like everybody at a car race, they wanna see the racing, but they, they wanna see a car crash.

    16. JR

      [chuckles] Right.

    17. BU

      You know? And I, I don't understand it-

    18. JR

      Right

    19. BU

      ... but they wanna see the car crash.

    20. JR

      They wanna see something happen.

    21. BU

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      They wanna s- they wanna get excited.

    23. BU

      That's-

    24. JR

      But that's casuals. You know, you-

    25. BU

      Yeah

    26. JR

      ... the casuals are the ones that boo when the fight goes to the ground.

    27. BU

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      You can't change the rules for the casuals.

    29. BU

      True.

    30. JR

      You know, but there's, that's the problem when business gets involved in sport.

  11. 43:35 – 59:47

    Training smarter: concussions, sparring culture, and why the Jet Center stood out

    1. JR

      Well, that's why it's important where you train, you know? And, uh, the gym that you guys had set up, the Jet Center, was legendary for developing champions and legendary for teach- teaching proper technique and showing you the consequences of the moves, and also teaching people that you don't have to spar to try to kill each other all the time. You know, you, you could spar... Like, some of the best sparring I ever got was at the Jet Center, because-

    2. BU

      [chuckles]

    3. JR

      ... the place, when I- and this is after I've been done fighting. When I lived in Boston, w- when we trained, it was war. Every time you sparred, you were just fighting. There was no one pulled any punches. No one pulled any kicks. Everybody was blasting everybody full blast.

    4. BU

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      It was terrifying.

    6. BU

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      And you saw a lot of guys get knocked out in the gym, and then they'd be back a couple days later, and that's crazy. That's crazy.

    8. BU

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      We know that now.

    10. BU

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      Back then, we didn't even think about it. Everybody just came back. You just came back, you started training again, you had a headache, and you just dealt with it.

    12. BU

      Nobody, nobody actually understood a concussion.

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. BU

      Hey, "All right, shake it off. You know, uh, you'll be okay. You know, sit down for a while, have some water. Okay, back in."

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. BU

      And so you went back in with a concussion, not, not even knowing that you had a concussion-

    17. JR

      Right

    18. BU

      ... other than, "I had a headache," or, "I was a little dizzy, but I'm okay again. Let me get back in," because, hey, you didn't want to feel like, "Hey, I can't hang."

    19. JR

      You didn't want to feel like a bitch. Yeah.

    20. BU

      That's right.

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. BU

      I can't hang. And so you get back in there with this, and so that's what's going on with a lot of these fighters. They, you know, before they go... I mean, they're training for their fight, and they get a concussion, and then next week they're going into the, their fight with a concussion, not even knowing they had a concussion.

    23. JR

      Happens all the time.

    24. BU

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      I know one guy who got knocked out twice in camp, and then, like, one of them was less than two weeks before his fight, and then he got touched on the chin in his fight, just went out cold because he was already fucked up.

    26. BU

      Mm-hmm. That's right.

    27. JR

      He came into the fight, like, severely compromised. It's like going into battle with a hole in your armor. He was already messed up. And, you know, there's like, there's a time and place for hard sparring, 'cause I think you have to have some hard sparring to un- sparring to understand that, hey, you can't just block something like that. You're gonna get your arm fucked up. You can't just have your... You're gonna have to deal with the fact that hard shots are coming your way, so sometimes you're gonna have to spar hard. But technique sparring is so important, too. One of the reasons why the Thais are so successful is they play spar. Like, they fight every week, so there's no reason-

    28. BU

      Yeah

    29. JR

      ... to get banged up. So when you watch Thai fighters, when they spar over there, they're like, "Oi, oi!"

    30. BU

      Mm.

  12. 59:47 – 1:59:18

    Gene LeBell, Olympic Auditorium history, and Ali vs Inoki from the inside

    1. JR

      Is that where you met Gene LeBell?

    2. BU

      Yes.

    3. WR

      Gene LeBell.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. BU

      Exactly.

    6. WR

      Yeah.

    7. BU

      And I tell you what, talking about the master of disaster. [chuckles]

    8. JR

      Oh, yeah. He was awesome.

    9. BU

      Ooh!

    10. JR

      He was awesome.

    11. BU

      Hipon seoi nage.

    12. JR

      Yeah. [chuckles]

    13. BU

      There we go.

    14. JR

      I got a chance to meet him because one of the guys that I first trained jujitsu under, I took private lessons from this guy, Silvio Pimenta.

    15. BU

      Oh, yes, I know him.

    16. JR

      You know Silvio?

    17. BU

      I do.

    18. JR

      He's a great guy. Shout out to Silvio. And, uh, he was a Gene LeBell student, so he had a bunch of nasty tricks that he had learned from Gene LeBell, along with his jujitsu stuff. So he showed me a lot of, like, different chokes and different things and different variations that Gene had developed.

    19. BU

      Right.

    20. JR

      And I was like, "Man!" And then I finally got to meet Gene. What a character that guy was. [chuckles]

    21. BU

      Yeah, he was.

    22. JR

      He is such a character.

    23. BU

      Gene was one of those type of warriors, senseis, that say, "If you want to train with me, don't be a, don't be afraid to get choked out." And before you can actually train with him, he choke you out.

    24. JR

      [laughing]

    25. BU

      He choke you out, and he, and he would go and get lipstick and put it around your eyes-... [laughing] and then when he wake you up, you had all of a sudden-- That was Sensei Gene.

    26. JR

      [laughing]

    27. BU

      He was-- And, and I told Sensei Gene, I said, "Get it over with. Just choke me out, get it over with." 'Cause I knew that, I knew that automatically, like, he was being easy with... I said, "Just do it. Get it over with," uh, I said, "I'm not afraid. Just do it." And took me out. Before I know it, I was out, and I was back up again. I didn't even know I was out. And, uh, he said, "You took it like a, you know, like a charm, man, you know, and it wasn't true." I said, I said, "You know, Sensei, if I'm not afraid to die, what can you possibly do to me?" He said, "Really?" And I said, "Yeah." And then he grabbed my big toe and put me in pain-

    28. JR

      [laughing]

    29. BU

      ... all the way up to my forehead, all the way back down to the other big toe. And I said, "I'll never say that one again." [laughing]

    30. JR

      Your big toe? He had a big toe submission.

  13. 1:20:50 – 1:32:32

    Jet Center as transformation engine: confidence, discipline, and turning rivals into teammates

    1. JR

      Well, it was the mecca of kickboxing.

    2. WR

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      And like I said, like, when I was living in Boston, and when I was kickboxing in Boston, people would talk about the Jet Center with, like, hushed tones. Like, "You gotta get to the Jet Center." [chuckles]

    4. WR

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      'Cause I was telling people I was moving to LA. They're like: "Oh, you're gonna move to LA? You've gotta go to the Jet Center."

    6. WR

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      And I knew about it, and I was like, "Oh,," so like one of the first things I did, like one of the first things I did, I showed up for work. I did all the things that I had to do. I was working on this TV show.

    8. WR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      Then I went to Van Nuys. [chuckles] I was like: "I gotta go sign up." [laughing]

    10. WR

      Come on.

    11. JR

      [laughing]

    12. WR

      That's beautiful. Hey, hey, hey, Joe, so you mentioned that... Yeah, and you know, 'cause you could sling 'em pretty good yourself. You know what I mean?

    13. JR

      Oh, yeah, without a doubt.

    14. WR

      And, uh, you, you, you leaned over and ripped a body shot to that one guy you were, you were sparring with. He went down on one knee, and, uh, and, uh, if I'm not mistaken, you mentioned, "Man, I thought, 'Holy crap, man, I get shot in the parking lot.'"

    15. JR

      Yeah. [laughing]

    16. WR

      And, uh, and then he walks up to you, and he taps your glove, and he says, "Good shot."

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. WR

      You see what I'm saying?

    19. JR

      I, I remember that, yeah.

    20. WR

      And so, so-

    21. JR

      I was nervous sparring those dudes. [laughing]

    22. WR

      Yeah, but that, but that was, that was part of why I had them there.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. WR

      You know what I mean?

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WR

      Because at the end of the day, i- it's not about violence.

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. WR

      And, and, and, and that was giving them that, that lesson that they needed to learn-

    29. JR

      Yes

    30. WR

      ... you know what I mean?

  14. 1:32:32 – 1:40:06

    Forgiveness in action: Blinky meets his son’s killer and finds closure

    1. WR

      Yeah. Hey, Joe, so, so, you know, you made mention right now, one of the hardest things to do is lose someone. And so for me, I wanted to share a little bit, that in 2023, I got a phone call that, that, that was something that I could never anticipated. It was January of 2023, and it was a, a call that was made... One of my sons called to tell me that he had talked to a, a friend of ours that does a lot of work in, uh, with the prisons, has a lot of entrees on big-time boards, and that he was at, he was at one of the prisons, and that a, a, an inmate walked up to him and asked him if he knew me. So he said, "You know, do you know Blinky?" And he, and he said, "Yeah." He says, "Why?" And, and the guy says, " 'Cause I, I'd like to talk to him." And he said, "Well, why?" He said, "Because I'm the guy that murdered his son."

    2. JR

      Oh, wow!

    3. WR

      And, and so my son's telling me that our, our friend wanted to know if I would consider talking to him on the phone. So I had just entered into a season of fasting and praying. Me and my wife now, we're gonna celebrate 10 years-

    4. JR

      Mm

    5. WR

      ... Gloria, you know. And, and, uh, and I said, "I don't know." I was grappling, Joe. I was, I was, I was grappling. I was fighting with it. And then I heard a, a gentle voice, and it was, "Say yes. Say yes." So I called my son back, and I said, "Tell him I said yes, but I don't wanna talk to him on the phone. I wanna see him in person." And so that's exactly what happened. On January the 30th, we drove up to the prison, and, and, uh, we get there, and, and first, first, we stop and get something to eat, and then we get to the prison, and the CO's right there waiting. And when we get there, he's, uh, he says, "Yeah, well, uh, come on through." And so me and, and, and, uh, this guy went through, and he, uh, he says, "Yeah, you know, we don't normally have, uh, meetings on Monday, but everything's fine. We're gonna be okay." So they walk us through. We walk through to get out to the back door, and there's the yard. The yard, the barbed wire, everything's right there. We, we start walking.

    6. JR

      Mm.

    7. WR

      We go into some- a building to the left. Now, I thought I was gonna be talking to somebody, uh, behind glass, but it turns out that they're, they're asking me, what do I think about this room? And I, and, and I'm like, in my mind, "W- why are they asking me? What am I thinking about this room?" You know what I mean? Because, you know, that's, that's up to them. But I look down the hallway, and there's a door. I said, "What's behind that door?" And the CO tells me, he says, "That's a, that's a chapel." I said, "Can I see it?" We walk back down the hallway, he opens the door, and, and, and there's a podium right there, and there's about 15 chairs. So I said to him, "Can we use this room?" And he said yes. So at that point in time, I need to go to the restroom. So we walk out of the building, he takes me to the restroom. When we come back out, my friend, the one that was setting it all up, he's not there, but there's an inmate. I can hear him saying, "Hey, Blinky, thank you for the letter to the parole board. I got a date!" But I'm in another dimension, Joe. I mean, I- I'm like somewhere else. So couple of minutes goes by, and I hear, I hear my buddy, and he says, "Hey, Blinky, this is David." And when I, when I pivoted out, he was right here in front of me, this guy that had killed my son. And the words that came out of his mouth, Joe, I cannot even... I didn't have a second to, to try to digest it, but he says to me, "Can I get a hug?" And when he said, "Can I get a hug?" I grabbed him, and I embraced him, and I began to weep. I began to weep. I began to cry. I began to travail, and he began to weep. And that was a Holy Ghost moment, where the Spirit of God was moving on that whole issue. And we went from there into that chapel, and we spent a little over two hours talking. The, the, the CO that was there and my buddy, they were sitting in the corner of the room, and as I'm talking to him, and we're going over... 'Cause my wife, before I left the house, she says, "Remember, he was just a young guy." You know what I mean? "He was c- probably confused back then." So now I'm talking to him, and now we're going over different things that took place, and I hear that voice, "Tell him. Talk to him." So I said, "Okay." I said to him, "Can I have the privilege of leading you to the Lord?"

    8. WR

      ... and he said to me, "Yes." He says, "Yes," and tears start coming out of his eyes. I stepped a few feet over, I put my hand on his right shoulder, my, over his heart, and I let him. [coughs] And he began with a contrite heart, he began to weep and cry. And I came to realize, because it took me a long time to unpack that. Once I got- I left there, and I came home into the chair where I always sit to read, and wow! It's like, "What just happened? What did I just do? What just took place?" And at the end of the day, Joe, it was, I leave 99 to go get one. And that's what I grasped, that, that one life, that one person, under the... So that's why I've always said since then, that the power of forgiveness is more powerful than my left hook, and I had a good one, Joe. [chuckles] Yeah, that he did. Yeah.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. WR

      I just, chink! Nice and short, man. But, but the power of forgiveness, Joe, reconciles. It gives you a chance, man, to rekindle the fire. It gives you the opportunity, man, to live life-

    11. JR

      Yeah

    12. WR

      ... without carrying a heavy yoke on your neck-

    13. JR

      Right

    14. WR

      ... that people carry. It's powerful. I can't articulate to you in words what forgiveness is, but forgiveness is divine. The love that, that's required, the humility that's required to forgive unconditionally, and that's why I trust in Christ.

    15. JR

      That's a beautiful story.

    16. WR

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      It really is. That's a beautiful message.

    18. WR

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      And it's incredibly powerful of you to forgive that man, and to be able to recognize that, you know, he made a horrible, horrible decision that affected your life-

    20. WR

      Yeah

    21. JR

      ... and everyone around you.

    22. WR

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      But he's just a human being.

    24. WR

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      You know, and we're all capable of doing something terrible if we're in the wrong environment, with the wrong people around us-

    26. WR

      Yeah

    27. JR

      ... the wrong lifestyle-

    28. WR

      Yeah

    29. JR

      ... wrong decisions, you know, but we're all just human beings.

    30. WR

      Yeah, and that's why I'm still doing what I'm doing. I had to, I had to say farewell to my brother, Ben.

  15. 1:40:06 – 1:59:18

    What comes next: documentaries, new gyms, and building a ‘safe haven’ for growth

    1. WR

      You know what? Right now, I'm just doing a lot of traveling. I'm-

    2. JR

      Seminars and stuff?

    3. WR

      ... doing my documentary right now, and working on the documentary, and so forth, and, and just doing a lot of traveling.

    4. JR

      I've seen a lot of videos online of you teaching seminars and teaching people.

    5. WR

      Yeah, yeah.

    6. JR

      You're still doing a lot of that?

    7. WR

      A lot of it.

    8. JR

      Do you enjoy that still?

    9. WR

      You know what? I've always thought I was a better teacher than a fighter.

    10. JR

      That's crazy. [chuckles]

    11. WR

      [chuckles] The fighting-

    12. JR

      You were one of the greatest fighters of all time.

    13. WR

      The fighting I can do, but the teaching I love.

    14. JR

      Really?

    15. WR

      I love being able to get somebody and turn them inside out, so they may look at their truth and f- see that we all have talent, and we all have a gift. It's just giving the chance to see that. You know, I really take, uh, a lot of pride in seeing somebody that I can see that they, they doubt themselves, they hesitate about... And to go out there and, and really look at themselves and start to love themselves. There's no better feeling to see somebody come up from m- being very meek and weak to something just so strong, and doing something great-

    16. JR

      Mm

    17. WR

      ... for society and for, for his family.

    18. JR

      That's amazing.

    19. WR

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      That's amazing.

    21. WR

      Mm.

    22. JR

      Do you ever get any professional mixed martial arts fighters that reach out to you for training?

    23. WR

      Absolutely.

    24. JR

      Yeah, who have you trained with?

    25. WR

      Well, you know what? I, uh, right now, I, uh... Basically, what I do is, I don't talk about any of them. I just work with them. And everybody asks me, but I said, "You know what? Uh, I don't care who you are. I care about what you, what, what you would think that how I can help you with. If it's mental, if it's physical, it's spirit..." Because when it comes down to it, 80% of it is mental, 20% of it is physical, but 99.9% of that is spiritual, which is internal. This is what I work with them on. And so some of the fighters, I, I... You know, I said, "I prefer not to know," [sniffs] you know, "where you are, who you are, just other than what you want from me."

    26. JR

      Mm.

    27. WR

      "And from there, I can work with you on that." And so a lot of people want me to go and see their fights, you know, uh, uh, whether cage fighting, MMA, and stuff, and, uh, there was only one time I went, I believe. I went one time, because i- in the beginning, there were great technicians in that cage, beautiful technicians, and it got lost. It got lost somewhere around... And then every once in a while, you'll find somebody that sh- stands out like a sore thumb, with just beautiful technique, and they, you can see they really love what they're doing.

    28. JR

      Well, the young guys coming up today are some of the most technical I've ever seen.

    29. WR

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    30. JR

      It's a, it's an amazing time, because what we're seeing now is these kids that are in their 20s, that... You know, the UFC really became popular in 2005 from The Ultimate Fighter.

Episode duration: 1:59:18

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