JRE MMA Show #173 with Benny "The Jet" Urquidez & William "Blinky" Rodriguez

1. 0:02 – 1:25

   Rogan’s Jet Center memories and why it mattered in 1990s LA

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

   2. BUBenny Urquidez0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. [upbeat music] Gentlemen, what's happening?

   4. WRWilliam Rodriguez0:14

      Ah, hey, Joe.

   5. BUBenny Urquidez0:16

      Where do we begin?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Where do you begin?

   7. BUBenny Urquidez0:18

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Let me tell you, when I first came to Los Angeles in 1994, there was two places that I had to go. One of them was the Comedy Store, and the other one was the Jet Center. And I started training at the Jet Center in '94, before you guys shut down, because you had the earthquake-

   9. WRWilliam Rodriguez0:32

      Right

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       ... and you had the roof damage. So I was there before that happened, and I took your classes. I took your kickboxing classes because I remember it was very scary, 'cause you had a bunch of gang members in there.

   11. WRWilliam Rodriguez0:42

       [chuckles]

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       'Cause you were doing that, like, sort of outreach program where you're helping young gang members.

   13. WRWilliam Rodriguez0:46

       Yes.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       So I had to spar with gang members. So I was training at the Jet Center until it shut down, and then I went briefly when you guys reopened in North Hollywood. I went to that place for a little bit, too.

   15. BUBenny Urquidez0:55

       Ah, the Jet Gym.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Yeah.

   17. BUBenny Urquidez0:57

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       But then, uh, I started training at Majiro Gym-

   19. BUBenny Urquidez0:59

       Uh-huh

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       ... which is in the, in the Valley.

   21. BUBenny Urquidez1:00

       [clears throat] Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       But, uh, legends. You guys are legends, man.

   23. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:04

       Well, thank you, Joe.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       True pioneers in martial arts.

   25. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:07

       For you to remember was, was, uh, really humbled me. You remembered-- you mentioned my, my son and why I was starting that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Yes.

   27. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:17

       And you don't even know what it's grown into since that day, that you've seen what's going on.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       Well, tell, tell the story about your son and how that whole thing started.

2. 1:25 – 3:56

   Blinky’s origin story: losing his son, choosing forgiveness, building anti-violence work

   1. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:25

      Well, you know, unfortunately, in some communities, drive-bys aren't uncommon, and so when it becomes a generational curse, you know, and, and, and, and kids are getting killed sometimes randomly, um, that happened to me. It came knocking on my door in a valley that's got two million people. Knocked on my door, and, and, uh, I was just... I was- I'm gonna put it this way: I had a calling on my life to, to do something about it, because it became a situation where, where families and community was like, "Well, yeah, well, that's what happens in our community." And I was saying, "That is not what happens in our community. This is our community." And so I began to move, I began to move, ironically, with some churches that, uh, that were- that had that kind of ministry in their ministry, and marked peace marches, et cetera. But, uh, my son got shot while he was learning how to drive a stick shift.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:29

      Wow.

   3. WRWilliam Rodriguez2:30

      And, uh, it took his life, and, and that's not normal, and that's not-- that should not be common. And, and, uh, so I'm still at it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:40

      You're still doing that?

   5. WRWilliam Rodriguez2:41

      Still going on, thirty-six years later, put an organization together, and re- real, some with real lived experience, others with degrees, and really put together a whole, a nonprofit that speaks directly to it, where it's at. And, and, uh, so at the end of the day, um, yeah, it's over when we say it's over. You know what I mean?

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:05

      Yeah.

   7. WRWilliam Rodriguez3:05

      And, and, and ironically, what led the charge for me, at least, Joe, was forgiveness. The forgiveness that only God can give. I gotta tell it the way it is. And, uh, that forgiveness ended up taking me to the neighborhood that killed my son, and we had a huge meeting in that, that neighborhood, in the park, and a peace treaty kicked into place. No mothers crying, no babies dying. So to this day, I still continue to press in with a whole different, uh, how would I say, integrated service delivery, but keeping violence in the middle of it and dealing with it.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:54

      That's awesome.

   9. WRWilliam Rodriguez3:55

      But, but yeah.

3. 3:56 – 5:22

   Classic kickboxing lore: Theriault KO, combo mechanics, and early technique talk

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:56

      It's, and it's awesome that you brought them to a place like the Jet Center, where they can learn discipline, learn how to fight, build real confidence, you know, learn real martial arts skills, and also m- real martial arts mentality, especially when it's coming from guys like you. You know, I mean, I remember when you knocked out Jean-Yves Theriault. Jean-Yves Theriault was the fucking man.

   2. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:16

      [chuckles]

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:17

      He was the man.

   4. BUBenny Urquidez4:18

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:18

      Everybody was terrified of that guy.

   6. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:19

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:20

      And you, I believe you knocked him out with a left hook. Is that correct?

   8. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:22

      Left-- right leg, left hook.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:23

      Yeah. [chuckles] The combo.

   10. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:25

       You know, the more traditional shoulder kind of sweeps-

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:28

       Yeah

   12. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:28

       ... but you turn it over with the instep, and you know what I'm talking about.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:31

       Yes, sir.

   14. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:31

       And you reset and come back with the money.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       Yeah.

   16. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:34

       But, uh, it was, uh... And he's a bad dude. He went on to have a great career.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       Amazing career.

   18. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:38

       You know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:38

       Yeah, I mean, he's one of the all-time greats in kickboxing.

   20. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:41

       Oh, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       You know?

   22. WRWilliam Rodriguez4:42

       No doubt.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:43

       And, you know, it's just... I think it's important for people to recognize the, the real pioneers, and Benny, you were a real pioneer. I mean, there was no one like you when you emerged. When you emerged in the kickboxing scene, the karate scene, there was no one like you. And, you know, you went undefeated, and you took on people of all sizes, and to this day, there's amazing highlights of you on the internet that people still bring up because, you know, you were... I mean, you were fighting Thais when you had no training like that. You know, you, you were getting low kicked by those dudes and still found out a way to win. It's pretty crazy.

4. 5:22 – 7:02

   Benny’s first Muay Thai experience: not knowing the rules and adapting mid-fight

   1. BUBenny Urquidez5:22

      Well, you know, [chuckles] I tell you, it was, uh, when my brother asked me: "Would you want to fight Tha- uh, Thai?" You know, and I said, "What's Thai?" He said, "Muay Thai." And I said, "I'll fight him." I honestly, I thought that was his name. [laughing]

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:36

      [laughing]

   3. BUBenny Urquidez5:37

      I had no idea what Muay Thai was at the time, and so, um, we, we took it on, and, uh, it's-

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:44

      Where was the first Muay Thai fight that you had?

   5. BUBenny Urquidez5:46

      Matter of fact, it was at the Olympic Auditorium, um, when we first fought-

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:51

      In Los Angeles?

   7. BUBenny Urquidez5:52

      ... Ernest Hart. Yes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:53

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BUBenny Urquidez5:53

      Ernest Hart fought the first, uh, Thai champion, and that was the main event. And, uh, I tell you what, when I first got kicked in the legs-... uh, my eyes bulged out of my forehead.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:06

       [laughing]

   11. BUBenny Urquidez6:06

       I said, I mean, I've- I have strong legs, but I've never had anybody try to break my legs. And so it was a rude awakening, but it was the best thing that ever happened to me, 'cause he took me to the streets. He really did, because when he started elbowing, kneeing to my face, and I said, "Oh, you wanna fight that way? Okay." I didn't understand it. I just thought that, all right, there's a free-for-all.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:32

       Did you know what the rules were?

   13. BUBenny Urquidez6:33

       No.

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:34

       Oh, that's crazy! So you didn't know they were gonna use elbows or knees?

   15. BUBenny Urquidez6:39

       No.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:39

       That is crazy.

   17. BUBenny Urquidez6:42

       All I knew is Muay Thai. [laughing]

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:45

       [laughing]

   19. SPSpeaker6:46

       Norong Noi.

   20. BUBenny Urquidez6:48

       Yeah.

   21. SPSpeaker6:48

       Norong Noi was, was the guy that he fought that night.

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:51

       Well, he was-

   23. SPSpeaker6:51

       Lomphra Ngstah stadium champion.

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       Yeah, he was a great champion as well.

   25. BUBenny Urquidez6:53

       Oh, without a doubt. [chuckles]

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:55

       That's so crazy that you didn't even know what you were in for. Like, who, who was the promoter that set that up?

5. 7:02 – 11:13

   1970s ‘no rules’ Hawaii-style tournaments: weight mismatches, biting, and survival

   1. BUBenny Urquidez7:02

      Uh, you know, actually, believe it or not, uh, my brother, Arnold, was asked, you know... he says, he was calling me the world champ because in '73, it was called full contact karate, and Blinky and I, we, you know, we went to Hawaii, and no rules, no weight divisions, no nothing. So for the-

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:20

      How much did you weigh back then?

   3. BUBenny Urquidez7:22

      145.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:23

      Wow!

   5. BUBenny Urquidez7:24

      And so I end up beating-- actually-

   6. SPSpeaker7:26

      160. [laughing]

   7. BUBenny Urquidez7:28

      And, and Blinky, there was four of us left after we fought five, six times on Friday, and then we fought a couple of more times on Su- uh, Sunday. We-

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:38

      You fought two days?

   9. BUBenny Urquidez7:40

      Yeah.

   10. SPSpeaker7:40

       Yeah.

   11. BUBenny Urquidez7:40

       There was that many... no rule, it was just weight division. I mean, there was no weight division. It was just-

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       Brackets.

   13. BUBenny Urquidez7:46

       That's it. So Blinky ended up fighting. There was four of us. I, I fought Bernard White, and Blin- and I told Blinky, I said: "You know what? This guy," now he's, you know, you know, he's two hundred and forty-five pounds, Dana Goodson, six foot three, and I said, "Blinky, they don't wanna see you and I fight. They, they wanna see David and Goliath. They wanna see me fight him." And I said, "So if you don't knock him out, you're not gonna win, 'cause this guy, they're, they're kind of, you know, wanting to keep him up." And, uh, sure enough, then... and I said, "Blinky, if you don't knock him out, you don't, you know, hurt him. [laughing] Hurt him for me," so, 'cause I knew I was gonna fight him next.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:32

       [laughing]

   15. BUBenny Urquidez8:33

       And so that's what it was. [chuckles]

   16. SPSpeaker8:35

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:36

       So he was a hu- two hundred and forty pounds?

   18. BUBenny Urquidez8:38

       Yeah, two hundred and forty-five pounds.

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:40

       And you were 145?

   20. BUBenny Urquidez8:41

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:42

       Wow!

   22. SPSpeaker8:43

       I, I... you could pick him up and throw him around, so I, I, I got him tired.

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:47

       [laughing] So what were the rules? There was no rules at all.

   24. BUBenny Urquidez8:51

       No rules.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:51

       So could you stomp on the ground? Could you soccer kick? Could you do all that?

   26. BUBenny Urquidez8:55

       You know what? There was no rules. I actually threw him. I pinned him on the ground. He started to roll me over. I spit my mouthpiece out, I bit him on the chest. [laughing]

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:05

       Oh, my God.

   28. BUBenny Urquidez9:06

       He palm strike my face, and we got up, and my, my teeth mark was on his chest. He said, "You bit me!" And I said, "I was getting tired." [laughing]

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:17

       So w- how-- did they, did they have submissions? Did anybody know submissions back then?

   30. SPSpeaker9:22

       No.
6. 11:13 – 14:45

   Inventing shin guards and reverse-engineering Muay Thai from film

   1. BUBenny Urquidez11:13

      Basically, uh, somebody had black and white, was filming, uh, and I kinda looked at it, and I went to, uh, an old gentleman that used to do, uh, uh, actually do clothing and shoes and so forth, in this leather shop, and I asked him, I said: "I want to protect my shins." He's an old, older man, and I said: "I want to protect my shins. Do you have something?" And, and he brought out some pads, and I said, "Yeah," and I told him I want to put it around my shins. So I s- I created the first, uh, shin guards.

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:49

      You were the guy who invented the shin guard?

   3. BUBenny Urquidez11:51

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:51

      Oh, that's great. [laughing]

   5. BUBenny Urquidez11:52

      And I told him, "How do we keep it together?" And he said... And he's the one that brought out the Velcro.

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:58

      Ah!

   7. BUBenny Urquidez11:59

      And so he put on, he, uh, he sewed on Velcro on it, and so I-... so I ended up asking him: "Can you make more of them?" And I started giving them to him. That's how, because we were doing, uh, we were doing leg checking, 'cause we were watching them, but it was hurting us. Like, what the heck?

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:17

      Yeah.

   9. BUBenny Urquidez12:17

      You know, how did they do it? And then-

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:19

       So you were, you guys were doing it bare shin.

   11. BUBenny Urquidez12:21

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:21

       So bare shin, leg kicking, training hard.

   13. BUBenny Urquidez12:23

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:24

       Yeah.

   15. BUBenny Urquidez12:24

       That's how... We didn't know any other way.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       So what were the Thais doing back then? How were they protecting their shins?

   17. BUBenny Urquidez12:29

       Well, you know what they had? They have a spray, numbing spray.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       Ah.

   19. BUBenny Urquidez12:33

       They were spraying their shins and so-

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:35

       Like lidocaine or something like that?

   21. BUBenny Urquidez12:35

       Yeah, they were putting stuff that kinda like you couldn't, they couldn't feel it. [lips smack]

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:40

       Ah.

   23. BUBenny Urquidez12:40

       They couldn't feel, uh, the impact.

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:44

       So after you invented shin guards, is that how shin guards made their way to Thailand?

   25. BUBenny Urquidez12:50

       I'll put it this way. When I went to Thailand and to work with some of the Thais, I, I looked at them, I said, "Oh, they're finally..." 'Cause they didn't have them. I said, "Oh, you got shin guards here," and I was surprised.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:02

       Ah.

   27. BUBenny Urquidez13:02

       And but a lot of them didn't even use them still.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       Right.

   29. BUBenny Urquidez13:05

       And some of these, uh, high, um, up in the hills, the way they train, they didn't train with shin guards. They just sprayed their shins, and oh, my God.

   30. WRWilliam Rodriguez13:15

       Kick banana trees.
7. 14:45 – 16:04

   Japan’s kickboxing engine: belts, rematches, and the road to K-1

   1. BUBenny Urquidez14:45

      Espe- especially in Japan, this is basically when we really started, 'cause they started bringing us back there, one right after another. They started bringing us back there after, uh, I, you know, I took their belt, and they couldn't believe an American just went in there and took their belt from them, and they didn't, they didn't like it, they didn't want it, and they kept having us come back, taking that, trying to take that belt back.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:12

      In Japan?

   3. BUBenny Urquidez15:12

      Never happened. In Japan.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:14

      Wow!

   5. BUBenny Urquidez15:14

      Never happened.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:15

      Wow. And you gotta realize, like, back then, this is, like, post-Bruce Lee movies.

   7. BUBenny Urquidez15:21

      That's right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      So martial arts had exploded, karate exploded worldwide. Everybody wanted to learn martial arts, and Japan was kind of at the forefront of the kickboxing movement, right?

   9. BUBenny Urquidez15:31

      That's right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:31

       'Cause they had, they had had a bunch of Muay Thai guys fight Japanese guys, and the karate guys lost to the Muay Thai guys, and then they had to adjust, and then they got rid of elbows and created kickboxing because they wanted more excitement. They wanted to get rid of the clinch and get rid of the elbows. And so-

   11. BUBenny Urquidez15:48

       True

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:48

       ... and then K-1 was formed out of that.

   13. BUBenny Urquidez15:51

       That's right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:51

       It's like you're, like, really, like, patient zero.

   15. BUBenny Urquidez15:55

       [chuckles]

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       Like, you know what I'm saying?

   17. BUBenny Urquidez15:56

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       Like, the real mixed martial arts movement really began with you guys.

   19. BUBenny Urquidez16:01

       True.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:03

       Wow.

   21. BUBenny Urquidez16:03

       It's, uh-

8. 16:04 – 19:16

   Team-era kickboxing, PKA vs WKA politics, and why low kicks changed everything

   1. WRWilliam Rodriguez16:04

      Yeah, you know, I was just gonna say, you know, there wa- there was a, there was a phase there, 'cause you mentioned Chuck Norris earlier, that he raised money in Detroit, and he had done Enter the Dragon.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. WRWilliam Rodriguez16:14

      So he had that notoriety, and he had a cattle call. So fighters came from all over Southern Cal to his dojo in Santa Monica, and it was, it was single eliminations to the knockout to see which five guys would represent LA, and the same was going on in, in New York, the New York Dragons, Detroit, the Detroit Dragons, DC, the DC Dynamos, and, and, and then the, the, the Texas Gladiators. Those were the teams people were vying for, and we, we participated. I ended up becoming the middleweight starter, Benny was the lightweight, a- and then Steve Sanders, who was an old name in traditional karate, three of his guys from the Black Karate Federation, Ernest "Madman" Russell, Danny Ferguson, Sugar Bear, we were the LA team. And the, what, what's crazy is that you won as a team. If you went out there and knocked the guy out or you got knocked out, they got 25 points.

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:12

      Ah.

   5. WRWilliam Rodriguez17:12

      And, and so the accumulation of, of points, that you would get $1,500, but the losers got 700. So, so that, so that took off, and the last, uh, tournament or fight show that they had was at, at, uh, in Detroit. A- and after that, that's when, you know, things started going another direction.

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:35

      Yeah.

   7. WRWilliam Rodriguez17:35

      But it's just interesting, the way that it evolved.

   8. BUBenny Urquidez17:38

      Right. Have you, have you ever heard of the PKA?

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:41

      Yes, sure.

   10. BUBenny Urquidez17:41

       Yeah, okay.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:42

       Oh, yeah.

   12. BUBenny Urquidez17:42

       So the PKA started with Don Kwan and Judy Kwan. They... But only, that was from the waist up-

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:49

       Right

   14. BUBenny Urquidez17:50

       ... and only 'cause they were protecting Bill, because he didn't like getting kicked in the legs.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:54

       Superfoot.

   16. BUBenny Urquidez17:55

       Yes.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:55

       Bill Walls.

   18. BUBenny Urquidez17:55

       Yeah, exactly.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:56

       Yeah.

   20. BUBenny Urquidez17:57

       And so in that-

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       So that's why they decided not to have the legs kick, 'cause Bill only had one good knee, right?

   22. BUBenny Urquidez18:03

       That's right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:03

       He had one knee that was messed up, which is why he only threw, like, left kicks.

   24. BUBenny Urquidez18:06

       That, that front, I said, that front leg.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       ... This episode is brought to you by Paramount+. The new era of UFC on Paramount+ comes out swinging. Show-stopping highlight machine, Justin Gaethje, collides with Liverpool phenom, Paddy "The Baddy" Pimblett. It's a must-see main event. Plus, "Suga" Sean O'Malley faces off against Song Yadong in a stand-up war filled with high-level striking. Stream UFC 324, Saturday at 9:00 PM Eastern, only on Paramount+. Visit paramountplus.com/ufc to get started.

   26. WRWilliam Rodriguez18:42

       Yeah, but I don't know if it was just-

   27. BUBenny Urquidez18:42

       ... That front leg was nasty, though.

   28. WRWilliam Rodriguez18:44

       Yeah.

   29. BUBenny Urquidez18:44

       Ooh!

   30. WRWilliam Rodriguez18:44

       It was just predicated upon that, but it, they just waist down.
9. 19:16 – 33:34

   Calf kicks’ modern renaissance and the business problem of kickboxing in America

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:16

      Well, what's interesting now is, like, that is one of the primary weapons of MMA now, is the calf kick. It's interesting, right?

   2. WRWilliam Rodriguez19:23

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan19:23

      Like-

   4. WRWilliam Rodriguez19:23

      Well-

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:23

      ... 'cause people kind of slept on the calf kick-

   6. WRWilliam Rodriguez19:26

      Mm-hmm

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:26

      ... for a long time.

   8. BUBenny Urquidez19:27

      Well, people that are dancers, they like to dance in the ring.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:31

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BUBenny Urquidez19:31

       You went for the calf, and they were flat-footed, and they couldn't dance no more.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       Yeah.

   12. BUBenny Urquidez19:36

       So you wanna stop somebody that was dancing, well, you go right for the calf, and they become flat-footed. But if you, if you had some people that would have good right hands, you kick them in the thighs, they couldn't lean on that front leg to hit with a right cross. So there was, there was a really, a method of, of, uh, combat, of warriorship in there that we, we develop over the years, that we knew w- how to take power from the, from our opponent.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:03

       It's just crazy that it took so long for MMA to recognize the potency of the calf kick. Because, you know, I talked to Daniel Cormier, who was a w- two-division world champion. I talked to Michael Bisping.

   14. WRWilliam Rodriguez20:15

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:15

       Michael Bisping became a middleweight world champion, never got calf kicked his entire career. 'Cause the calf kick-

   16. WRWilliam Rodriguez20:21

       Mm

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:21

       ... kind of emerged after he became a champion. Now, what's really interesting is what's happening right now. So in kickboxing and in Muay Thai, people thought, "Oh, the calf kick doesn't work there because the Thais know how to block it." Well, the Japanese fighters, the Kyokushin guys, are now dominating some of the Thai guys because they kick calves.

   18. WRWilliam Rodriguez20:43

       Mm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:43

       There's this bad motherfucker from Japan named Yuki Yoza.

   20. WRWilliam Rodriguez20:46

       Yes.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:47

       And this... You know who he is?

   22. WRWilliam Rodriguez20:48

       I do.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:48

       That dude is lighting these people on fire-

   24. BUBenny Urquidez20:51

       Mm!

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:51

       ... because he's just constant combinations and chopping at the calves, and chopping from the inside and the outside-

   26. WRWilliam Rodriguez20:57

       Mm

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:57

       ... with every combination. And he's crippling Thais to the point where they can't move, and they're getting-

   28. WRWilliam Rodriguez21:03

       Mm

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:03

       ... beat up and knocked out. There's another guy, Masaaki Noiri, and he's doing the same thing.

   30. WRWilliam Rodriguez21:08

       That's right.
10. 33:34 – 59:47

    Ground fighting, audience education, and the ‘warrior code’ vs entertainment incentives

    1. BUBenny Urquidez33:34

       Mm-hmm. But, you know, everybody's looking for the next, uh, biggest thing, and so far, you know, I mean, where do you go from there? From UFC, where you can throw, and you ground and pound, and so forth. When you do technique standing, everybody sees it, but when it goes to the ground, everybody's looking at the monitor-

    2. JRJoe Rogan33:56

       Right

    3. BUBenny Urquidez33:56

       ... because they can't see nothing.

    4. JRJoe Rogan33:58

       Right.

    5. BUBenny Urquidez33:58

       And so a lot of people were thinking it's boring, but they didn't realize there was a skill on the ground, but nobody seen it, and it looked boring. But when you got up... So they were paying some of the fighters to stop the opponent standing-

    6. JRJoe Rogan34:15

       Yeah

    7. BUBenny Urquidez34:16

       ... instead of going to the ground.

    8. JRJoe Rogan34:17

       Well, there's a lot of promoters that definitely encouraged-

    9. BUBenny Urquidez34:19

       Mm

    10. JRJoe Rogan34:19

        ... fighters to not go to the ground.

    11. BUBenny Urquidez34:21

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan34:21

        And discouraged them when they did go to the ground. 'Cause they knew they could take a guy down and just hold him down and beat him up a little bit and win, and the promoter's just like, "We're not interested in you." Which I think is not fair, because it's all about fighting, and if a guy can hold you down, you have to figure out how to get up. And if, if otherwise, we're pretending. We're pretending these techniques work. Because if a guy is, like, a world-class wrestler, some Division I All-American, and he takes you down and holds you down, you gotta figure out how to handle that, otherwise we're lying. Because the sport is about combat. It's about fighting. It's the sport of fighting. Fighting is a man that can hold you down. If he could hold you down and beat you up, why is the referee standing you up? Why is the referee giving you an opportunity to fight back? You have to figure out how to get up. You have to figure out either how to submit him off your back, sweep him, or stand up. Those are the options. A referee standing you up 'cause the crowd's booing? That's crazy.

    13. BUBenny Urquidez35:20

        Yeah. You know, that's really true, though. It's, uh... I, I think that the crowd, you know, they're, they wanna see action, and they can't see it on the ground, but they don't realize there's a lot of action going on the ground.

    14. JRJoe Rogan35:33

        There's a lot of action, yeah.

    15. BUBenny Urquidez35:34

        But they don't see that. They wanna see... You know, it's almost like everybody at a car race, they wanna see the racing, but they, they wanna see a car crash.

    16. JRJoe Rogan35:45

        [chuckles] Right.

    17. BUBenny Urquidez35:45

        You know? And I, I don't understand it-

    18. JRJoe Rogan35:47

        Right

    19. BUBenny Urquidez35:47

        ... but they wanna see the car crash.

    20. JRJoe Rogan35:48

        They wanna see something happen.

    21. BUBenny Urquidez35:49

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan35:50

        They wanna s- they wanna get excited.

    23. BUBenny Urquidez35:51

        That's-

    24. JRJoe Rogan35:51

        But that's casuals. You know, you-

    25. BUBenny Urquidez35:53

        Yeah

    26. JRJoe Rogan35:53

        ... the casuals are the ones that boo when the fight goes to the ground.

    27. BUBenny Urquidez35:56

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan35:56

        You can't change the rules for the casuals.

    29. BUBenny Urquidez35:58

        True.

    30. JRJoe Rogan35:58

        You know, but there's, that's the problem when business gets involved in sport.
11. 59:47 – 1:32:32

    Pioneers, mentors, and icons: Gene LeBell, Ali vs Inoki, and the Urquidez fight family

    1. JRJoe Rogan59:47

       Is that where you met Gene LeBell?

    2. BUBenny Urquidez59:49

       Yes.

    3. WRWilliam Rodriguez59:49

       Gene LeBell.

    4. JRJoe Rogan59:49

       Yeah.

    5. BUBenny Urquidez59:49

       Exactly.

    6. WRWilliam Rodriguez59:50

       Yeah.

    7. BUBenny Urquidez59:51

       And I tell you what, talking about the master of disaster. [chuckles]

    8. JRJoe Rogan59:53

       Oh, yeah. He was awesome.

    9. BUBenny Urquidez59:54

       Ooh!

    10. JRJoe Rogan59:55

        He was awesome.

    11. BUBenny Urquidez59:55

        Hipon seoi nage.

    12. JRJoe Rogan59:56

        Yeah. [chuckles]

    13. BUBenny Urquidez59:57

        There we go.

    14. JRJoe Rogan59:57

        I got a chance to meet him because one of the guys that I first trained jujitsu under, I took private lessons from this guy, Silvio Pimenta.

    15. BUBenny Urquidez1:00:04

        Oh, yes, I know him.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

        You know Silvio?

    17. BUBenny Urquidez1:00:05

        I do.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

        He's a great guy. Shout out to Silvio. And, uh, he was a Gene LeBell student, so he had a bunch of nasty tricks that he had learned from Gene LeBell, along with his jujitsu stuff. So he showed me a lot of, like, different chokes and different things and different variations that Gene had developed.

    19. BUBenny Urquidez1:00:20

        Right.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

        And I was like, "Man!" And then I finally got to meet Gene. What a character that guy was. [chuckles]

    21. BUBenny Urquidez1:00:25

        Yeah, he was.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

        He is such a character.

    23. BUBenny Urquidez1:00:27

        Gene was one of those type of warriors, senseis, that say, "If you want to train with me, don't be a, don't be afraid to get choked out." And before you can actually train with him, he choke you out.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:42

        [laughing]

    25. BUBenny Urquidez1:00:43

        He choke you out, and he, and he would go and get lipstick and put it around your eyes-... [laughing] and then when he wake you up, you had all of a sudden-- That was Sensei Gene.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

        [laughing]

    27. BUBenny Urquidez1:00:52

        He was-- And, and I told Sensei Gene, I said, "Get it over with. Just choke me out, get it over with." 'Cause I knew that, I knew that automatically, like, he was being easy with... I said, "Just do it. Get it over with," uh, I said, "I'm not afraid. Just do it." And took me out. Before I know it, I was out, and I was back up again. I didn't even know I was out. And, uh, he said, "You took it like a, you know, like a charm, man, you know, and it wasn't true." I said, I said, "You know, Sensei, if I'm not afraid to die, what can you possibly do to me?" He said, "Really?" And I said, "Yeah." And then he grabbed my big toe and put me in pain-

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

        [laughing]

    29. BUBenny Urquidez1:01:37

        ... all the way up to my forehead, all the way back down to the other big toe. And I said, "I'll never say that one again." [laughing]

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:45

        Your big toe? He had a big toe submission.
12. 1:32:32 – 1:59:18

    Forgiveness revisited, Jet Center philosophy, and building the next ‘safe haven’ gym

    1. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:32:32

       Yeah. Hey, Joe, so, so, you know, you made mention right now, one of the hardest things to do is lose someone. And so for me, I wanted to share a little bit, that in 2023, I got a phone call that, that, that was something that I could never anticipated. It was January of 2023, and it was a, a call that was made... One of my sons called to tell me that he had talked to a, a friend of ours that does a lot of work in, uh, with the prisons, has a lot of entrees on big-time boards, and that he was at, he was at one of the prisons, and that a, a, an inmate walked up to him and asked him if he knew me. So he said, "You know, do you know Blinky?" And he, and he said, "Yeah." He says, "Why?" And, and the guy says, " 'Cause I, I'd like to talk to him." And he said, "Well, why?" He said, "Because I'm the guy that murdered his son."

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:33:26

       Oh, wow!

    3. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:33:27

       And, and so my son's telling me that our, our friend wanted to know if I would consider talking to him on the phone. So I had just entered into a season of fasting and praying. Me and my wife now, we're gonna celebrate 10 years-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:33:42

       Mm

    5. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:33:42

       ... Gloria, you know. And, and, uh, and I said, "I don't know." I was grappling, Joe. I was, I was, I was grappling. I was fighting with it. And then I heard a, a gentle voice, and it was, "Say yes. Say yes." So I called my son back, and I said, "Tell him I said yes, but I don't wanna talk to him on the phone. I wanna see him in person." And so that's exactly what happened. On January the 30th, we drove up to the prison, and, and, uh, we get there, and, and first, first, we stop and get something to eat, and then we get to the prison, and the CO's right there waiting. And when we get there, he's, uh, he says, "Yeah, well, uh, come on through." And so me and, and, and, uh, this guy went through, and he, uh, he says, "Yeah, you know, we don't normally have, uh, meetings on Monday, but everything's fine. We're gonna be okay." So they walk us through. We walk through to get out to the back door, and there's the yard. The yard, the barbed wire, everything's right there. We, we start walking.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:34:51

       Mm.

    7. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:34:51

       We go into some- a building to the left. Now, I thought I was gonna be talking to somebody, uh, behind glass, but it turns out that they're, they're asking me, what do I think about this room? And I, and, and I'm like, in my mind, "W- why are they asking me? What am I thinking about this room?" You know what I mean? Because, you know, that's, that's up to them. But I look down the hallway, and there's a door. I said, "What's behind that door?" And the CO tells me, he says, "That's a, that's a chapel." I said, "Can I see it?" We walk back down the hallway, he opens the door, and, and, and there's a podium right there, and there's about 15 chairs. So I said to him, "Can we use this room?" And he said yes. So at that point in time, I need to go to the restroom. So we walk out of the building, he takes me to the restroom. When we come back out, my friend, the one that was setting it all up, he's not there, but there's an inmate. I can hear him saying, "Hey, Blinky, thank you for the letter to the parole board. I got a date!" But I'm in another dimension, Joe. I mean, I- I'm like somewhere else. So couple of minutes goes by, and I hear, I hear my buddy, and he says, "Hey, Blinky, this is David." And when I, when I pivoted out, he was right here in front of me, this guy that had killed my son. And the words that came out of his mouth, Joe, I cannot even... I didn't have a second to, to try to digest it, but he says to me, "Can I get a hug?" And when he said, "Can I get a hug?" I grabbed him, and I embraced him, and I began to weep. I began to weep. I began to cry. I began to travail, and he began to weep. And that was a Holy Ghost moment, where the Spirit of God was moving on that whole issue. And we went from there into that chapel, and we spent a little over two hours talking. The, the, the CO that was there and my buddy, they were sitting in the corner of the room, and as I'm talking to him, and we're going over... 'Cause my wife, before I left the house, she says, "Remember, he was just a young guy." You know what I mean? "He was c- probably confused back then." So now I'm talking to him, and now we're going over different things that took place, and I hear that voice, "Tell him. Talk to him." So I said, "Okay." I said to him, "Can I have the privilege of leading you to the Lord?"

    8. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:37:29

       ... and he said to me, "Yes." He says, "Yes," and tears start coming out of his eyes. I stepped a few feet over, I put my hand on his right shoulder, my, over his heart, and I let him. [coughs] And he began with a contrite heart, he began to weep and cry. And I came to realize, because it took me a long time to unpack that. Once I got- I left there, and I came home into the chair where I always sit to read, and wow! It's like, "What just happened? What did I just do? What just took place?" And at the end of the day, Joe, it was, I leave 99 to go get one. And that's what I grasped, that, that one life, that one person, under the... So that's why I've always said since then, that the power of forgiveness is more powerful than my left hook, and I had a good one, Joe. [chuckles] Yeah, that he did. Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:38:26

       Yeah.

    10. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:38:26

        I just, chink! Nice and short, man. But, but the power of forgiveness, Joe, reconciles. It gives you a chance, man, to rekindle the fire. It gives you the opportunity, man, to live life-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:38:40

        Yeah

    12. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:38:40

        ... without carrying a heavy yoke on your neck-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:38:42

        Right

    14. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:38:43

        ... that people carry. It's powerful. I can't articulate to you in words what forgiveness is, but forgiveness is divine. The love that, that's required, the humility that's required to forgive unconditionally, and that's why I trust in Christ.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:39:03

        That's a beautiful story.

    16. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:05

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:39:05

        It really is. That's a beautiful message.

    18. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:07

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:39:07

        And it's incredibly powerful of you to forgive that man, and to be able to recognize that, you know, he made a horrible, horrible decision that affected your life-

    20. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:16

        Yeah

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:39:16

        ... and everyone around you.

    22. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:17

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:39:18

        But he's just a human being.

    24. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:20

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:39:21

        You know, and we're all capable of doing something terrible if we're in the wrong environment, with the wrong people around us-

    26. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:27

        Yeah

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:39:27

        ... the wrong lifestyle-

    28. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:29

        Yeah

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:39:29

        ... wrong decisions, you know, but we're all just human beings.

    30. WRWilliam Rodriguez1:39:31

        Yeah, and that's why I'm still doing what I'm doing. I had to, I had to say farewell to my brother, Ben.

Episode duration: 1:59:18