JRE MMA Show #18 with Pat Miletich

1. 0:02 – 1:11

   Pat Miletich’s early MMA fights and the wild ‘no rulebook’ era

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Three, two, one. (slaps table) The great and powerful Pat Miletich.

   2. PMPat Miletich0:09

      (sighs) I don't know about that, but-

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      You are. Listen, man, um, it's an honor to have you in here, honestly.

   4. PMPat Miletich0:13

      Thank you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      All the bullshit aside.

   6. PMPat Miletich0:14

      I've... Hey, you know what? I've been watching your show for a long time, and you're a contrarian thinker. I love it. And you've, you've prompted a lot of people to think differently, right?

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Uh, maybe. I mean, the, I think information prompts people to think differently, you know?

   8. PMPat Miletich0:27

      Well, when they get pounded with it enough and hear it enough-

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:30

      Yeah.

   10. PMPat Miletich0:30

       ... eventually it starts to sink in, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Yeah, I think so, man. And when you talk about, um, guys who have been around, like, you, you are one of the real pioneers of MMA. You know, it's one of the reasons why I really wanted to have you in here. I remember back when you were fighting. I remember back when you fought Matt Hume in, what was that, like... And, uh-

   12. PMPat Miletich0:47

       Extreme Struggle Care?

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       ... Extreme Battle, yeah. That was John Paretty's thing.

   14. PMPat Miletich0:50

       Yeah. Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       I mean, dude, you've been around. You've been around. You were there early days, bare knuckle-

   16. PMPat Miletich0:55

       Yeah, yeah. No, you know, and the thing is, I always tell people-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Did you fight Dan Severn?

   18. PMPat Miletich0:59

       Yeah, yeah. We fought to a draw.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       Who was 270 pounds at the time.

   20. PMPat Miletich1:03

       Yeah, and he was still obviously pretty tough back then, still pretty mobile. It was not a, not a fun fight, I can tell you, carrying his weight around for 30 minutes, but-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       (laughs)

2. 1:11 – 2:38

   The Matt Hume loss, broken-nose stoppage, and early regulation confusion

   1. PMPat Miletich1:11

      ... it was tough. But Matt Hume was the guy that made me realize that I wasn't a fighter yet, 'cause I was 15 and 0. I think I was ranked fourth in the world. I fought Matt, rag-dolled him for basically the whole first round, threw him around like a rag doll. But he was just biding his time and waiting, and he caught me with some knees and damaged my nose. And the ref or the... Yeah, the referee and the doctor stopped the fight, 'cause back then it was very controversial. They didn't want a guy with a crushed nose or whatever, and so they stopped the fight. But I realized at that point, he knew a lot more than I did.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:43

      Yeah, that was an interesting fight, because I totally disagreed with that stoppage and I was watching it. I was like, "This is crazy."

   3. PMPat Miletich1:48

      Right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:48

      How can you stop a fight for a broken nose?

   5. PMPat Miletich1:50

      Well, and it was... I got headbutted. I used to spar with a lot of pro boxers, and I got headbutted by a pro boxer, and he separated the cartilage from the bone. So that gap is still there, so that's what they felt. My nose was bleeding a little bit, but-

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      Mm.

   7. PMPat Miletich2:02

      So that's why, that's why they stopped it, so-

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:04

      Right, but broken noses are just normal.

   9. PMPat Miletich2:06

      It happens, right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       And it's not dangerous. It's like may- maybe somebody saw those movies where you, like, like remember in a movie-

   11. PMPat Miletich2:12

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       ... a guy would hit the bottom of a guy's nose and drive the bone up into his brain?

   13. PMPat Miletich2:16

       It's like Mike Tyson talking about it right after. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:18

       Yeah. (laughs) He did.

   15. PMPat Miletich2:19

       "He hit him like this and push it, push it-"

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       Yeah.

   17. PMPat Miletich2:21

       "... bone, bone up through the brain."

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       That might be the worst Mike Tyson impression I've ever heard.

   19. PMPat Miletich2:24

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:24

       I'm gonna let that go though.

   21. PMPat Miletich2:26

       (laughs) . I'm doing my best, doing my best, man.

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       Yeah, but back then, yeah, nobody really knew, uh, like what was dangerous, what wasn't dangerous. It wasn't like a, a body of fights that we could draw upon.

3. 2:38 – 3:22

   Keeping MMA legal: debating politicians and the fight over banned techniques

   1. PMPat Miletich2:38

      Right, and I was doing televised debates with politicians at the time.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:40

      Were you really?

   3. PMPat Miletich2:41

      To keep the sport legal in the state that I was scheduled to fight in. So think of how stressful it is to train for a fight, stay healthy, try and pay your bills, do all the stuff you're doing, and at the same time, I'm debating politicians in that state who are trying to pass a bill to ban the sport that I'm scheduled to fight in that state. I'm panicking. I'm freaking out. So I'd do my homework and I'd get in debates, like Representative Bolen from Illinois. I got... By the time we got done with the debate, he goes, "I'll agree with Mr. Miletich. He's obviously..." You know, I think they, they expected to go into a, a debate with a punch-drunk boxer.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:13

      Right, right.

   5. PMPat Miletich3:14

      And by the time the debate was done, I'd crushed him, and he's like, "Oh, maybe if we could just do away with head butts." You know, that was his rebuttal at the end of it.

4. 3:22 – 5:09

   Headbutts, knees on the ground, and what rules remove from the game

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:22

      Yeah, I mean, I see how they think, and I see that thought. But I think today, even to this day, I, I don't mind head butts.

   2. PMPat Miletich3:31

      I don't either 'cause you train for them.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:32

      Yeah, yeah.

   4. PMPat Miletich3:32

      If they're legal, that's what you're training for.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:34

      And it's a legit technique. Like, why is it okay to slam your elbow into someone's face, but it's not okay to slam your forehead into someone's face?

   6. PMPat Miletich3:40

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:40

      And it's very effective. If a guy's tying you up in the guard and his head's right there, you can do that.

   8. PMPat Miletich3:47

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:47

      And he can't really do it back to you. It's-

   10. PMPat Miletich3:49

       And I... I mean, I, I watched... When I was in my first No Holds Barred tournament in Chicago... Oh God, I don't even remember the name of it anymore. It's been so long. But, um, I saw a guy get headbutted 42 times in the first round, and he ended up winning with a triangle.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:06

       Wow.

   12. PMPat Miletich4:06

       He ended up winning the fight. It was Marcel Lebrecht versus this guy named Johnson, Mike Johnson, I think his name was. Marcel Lebrecht ends up losing after crushing him with headbutts. Mike Johnson's in the shower. They're running cold water on him, trying to wake him back up, and he collapses and they have to throw in an alternate, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:23

       Wow.

   14. PMPat Miletich4:23

       But it was... Yeah, headbutts ob- obviously were legal then, so...

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:26

       Wow. Yeah, headbutts, like that-

   16. PMPat Miletich4:30

       Knees-

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:30

       ... was Mark "The Hammer" Coleman's move.

   18. PMPat Miletich4:32

       Knees on the ground.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:32

       Knees on the ground.

   20. PMPat Miletich4:33

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       Knees to the head on the ground.

   22. PMPat Miletich4:34

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:35

       But I mean, think about when Coleman was in his prime. He was all about headbutts.

   24. PMPat Miletich4:39

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       And when he fought Maurice and he took Maurice down, that was back in the days when headbutts were legal.

   26. PMPat Miletich4:44

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:44

       And Maurice Smith, he defended against all that.

   28. PMPat Miletich4:47

       Yeah, doing all of this and-

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:47

       Yeah.

   30. PMPat Miletich4:48

       ... yeah.
5. 5:09 – 7:24

   From martial arts ‘religion’ to well-rounded MMA (and the last specialists)

   1. PMPat Miletich5:09

      But, you know, you were an open thinker, obviously, and you realized... And so the thing was, with early MMA, everybody was so tied to their technique. It's like being tied to a religion-

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:18

      Right.

   3. PMPat Miletich5:18

      ... and refusing to see something else.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:20

      Yeah, there was a lot of that.

   5. PMPat Miletich5:22

      So guys who are TaeKwonDo experts, wrestlers, this, that, they were so, so attached to their art-

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:28

      Mm-hmm.

   7. PMPat Miletich5:28

      ... that they refused to learn anything else and they'd just die because of it.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:32

      Yeah.

   9. PMPat Miletich5:32

      They'd get crushed because of it. And I just early on went...... these guys are dumbasses. Why wouldn't you wanna know how to-

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:38

       Yeah.

   11. PMPat Miletich5:38

       ... do a lot of things? You gotta have a, a big toolbox.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:40

       But there was always a lot of pride in your art, right? There was always a lot of guys like wrestlers-

   13. PMPat Miletich5:45

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:45

       ... who were only into wrestling, or kickboxers only into Muay Thai. They just wanted to stand up.

   15. PMPat Miletich5:49

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:49

       They didn't wanna go to the ground.

   17. PMPat Miletich5:50

       Yep.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:50

       They just wanted to stand up. And that, that just costs you in the long run.

   19. PMPat Miletich5:54

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:54

       Especially when you see, like, a real complete fighter. Like a guy like Mighty Mouse. Like, a guy like-

   21. PMPat Miletich5:59

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:59

       ... Mighty Mouse is at the top of the heap.

   23. PMPat Miletich6:01

       Trained by Mat- Matt Hume, right?

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:02

       Yeah. Right, exactly. And he can do everything.

   25. PMPat Miletich6:05

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:05

       I mean, it doesn't matter if you're a wrestler. It doesn't matter if you're a kickboxer. You're fucked. You're fucked everywhere with that guy.

   27. PMPat Miletich6:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       And it's because he's got this just i- incredibly well-rounded skill sets.

   29. PMPat Miletich6:14

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:14

       And I think the days of the specialists, I think, are still c- they're still kinda here. These few guys.
6. 7:24 – 7:55

   Fighting to keep the belt: strategy, entertainment pressure, and job security

   1. PMPat Miletich7:24

      If, if I'm the champ, I'm just trying to keep my title. I'm doing enough to win. I'm not there to be the most exciting fight. That was my mentality because I knew once you get... 'Cause I fought totally different... Before I got to the UFC, I was just a psychopath and go out and just go 100 miles an hour until the guy was done.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:40

      Right.

   3. PMPat Miletich7:41

      But once you get in the UFC, then it's, "Okay, we can cut you if you lose."

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:44

      Right, right.

   5. PMPat Miletich7:44

      It's like, "Okay, now I gotta change the way I fight."

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:46

      Well, there's also the win bonus.

   7. PMPat Miletich7:48

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:48

      I mean, especially now. Did they have the win bonus-

   9. PMPat Miletich7:50

      Oh, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:50

       ... back then?

   11. PMPat Miletich7:50

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:50

       Yeah, that's, that to me is a real issue.

   13. PMPat Miletich7:53

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:53

       I think a guy should be paid what they get paid.

   15. PMPat Miletich7:55

       Right.

7. 7:55 – 12:57

   Judging chaos and why win bonuses magnify bad decisions

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:55

      I think if you're- you have a contract, the contract be- for X amount of money. If you have points on the pay-per-view, that's on top of that. But the idea that your win or loss could be in the hands of what we have deemed completely incompetent judges.

   2. PMPat Miletich8:07

      I see it every week.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:08

      Every week. It's brutal. It's, I mean, and you do a lot of commentary yourself.

   4. PMPat Miletich8:11

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:11

      In, in these smaller shows, I'd, I'd imagine-

   6. PMPat Miletich8:13

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:13

      ... sometimes it's even worse.

   8. PMPat Miletich8:15

      I've, I mean, we've gotten in trouble to the point where we had people come to us and go, "Look, you..." The promoters at different organ- from different organizations when there was really, really bad decisions. You know, when I was working with Michael Chivello especially, we were brutal-

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:31

      Yeah.

   10. PMPat Miletich8:31

       ... on the athletic commissions. And we'd hear about it and go, "You guys need to back, back off."

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:36

       I've heard it too.

   12. PMPat Miletich8:37

       You guys are-

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:37

       I've heard it from athletic commissions too.

   14. PMPat Miletich8:38

       Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       But I'd say, "Go fuck yourself."

   16. PMPat Miletich8:40

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:40

       There's guys in there that are fighting for their life. They literally train for months and months, and somepon- someone who literally doesn't even understand martial arts is giving these-

   18. PMPat Miletich8:48

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:48

       ... guys a decision, a loss or a win.

   20. PMPat Miletich8:51

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:51

       And that's 50% of their money. I mean, that's crazy.

   22. PMPat Miletich8:54

       And I- I remember the first time I witnessed it as far as a coach when my IFL team was fighting in Texas. We were fighting, I think Boss's team. And I looked at the judges and all of them, one of them had a, a, a bouffant hairdo, an old lady.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:06

       (laughs)

   24. PMPat Miletich9:06

       And then two old guys with white hair.

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:09

       Right.

   26. PMPat Miletich9:09

       And I s- I went back to the locker room and I go, "Guys, you can't let this go to the judges. They are, like, one foot in a grave and the other on a, on a banana peel. They know nothing about what they're watching."

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:19

       (laughs)

   28. PMPat Miletich9:19

       Like, "We are in deep shit if we can't do it."

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:21

       Well, it's, I think boxing is a very complicated art. And I think it's a very difficult thing to s- to score, but it's way more easy to score-

   30. PMPat Miletich9:31

       Yeah.
8. 12:57 – 16:50

   Refereeing, forced stoppages, and the Tim Sylvia arm break example

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:57

      You know, my problem with it, though, is that there's referees that separate fighters when they're working real hard against the cage.

   2. PMPat Miletich13:03

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:03

      Like, and I think, again, it's guys who don't understand. They don't understand how difficult this is.

   4. PMPat Miletich13:08

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:08

      When you have one guy's trying to take the other guy down, the other guy's trying to defend, they're landing shots in between-

   6. PMPat Miletich13:13

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:13

      ... trying to open up space and then the referee will say, "Keep working 'cause I'm gonna separate you guys if you don't work." Like, what the fuck?

   8. PMPat Miletich13:18

      They're working.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:18

      What the fuck are you watching?

   10. PMPat Miletich13:19

       Yeah. They're battling, they're battling.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:21

       They literally don't understand the position.

   12. PMPat Miletich13:23

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:23

       And that's, that's a giant problem.

   14. PMPat Miletich13:25

       Think about how many referees have never truly trained.

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       Right.

   16. PMPat Miletich13:28

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       A lot.

   18. PMPat Miletich13:29

       A lot of them.

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:29

       And if they did train, it was a long fucking time ago. A lot of the guys going in there with big fat guts and they just-

   20. PMPat Miletich13:34

       How many times have you called fights, in all the years you've been calling fights, and been saying, "He's out, he's out-"

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:41

       Yeah.

   22. PMPat Miletich13:41

       ... he's out. Stop the fight, stop the fight, stop the fight."

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:44

       (laughs) I wonder if you're so close to it that you don't see it as well.

   24. PMPat Miletich13:47

       That's, that's not an excuse, right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:48

       That's not an excuse, no.

   26. PMPat Miletich13:49

       Because, you know, you've trained for so many years in martial arts, right? You know when somebody's unconscious from a choke, you know when a joint's getting destroyed.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:57

       Yes.

   28. PMPat Miletich13:57

       You know, you've, you've been around it enough, you've trained high level enough where you see it. You know, you can see their stomach where it's going in and out really hard.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       Right.

   30. PMPat Miletich14:04

       You know they're unconscious, right?
9. 16:50 – 18:24

   Equipment loopholes: metal cups, ‘old school’ tricks, and unintended weapons

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:50

      Those metal cups, man, that's a weird, uh, still loophole. Like you could still wear those, those tie cups, those steel cups.

   2. PMPat Miletich16:57

      I think you should be able to, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:58

      But you're kicking metal. And it's also a crazy fulcrum. If you got a guy in an arm bar that's... You got a fucking metal rod there.

   4. PMPat Miletich17:04

      I like it, though. I like it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:06

      I'm sure you do. (laughs)

   6. PMPat Miletich17:08

      (laughs) But the thing with what the, the old timers that taught me in K1 and Muay Thai was you take those metal cups and you take sheet metal screws from the inside out.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:16

      Oh, Jesus.

   8. PMPat Miletich17:16

      And you screw the s- put the sheet metal screws through and then back them back out so there's raised edges everywhere on it, right?

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:22

      Right.

   10. PMPat Miletich17:23

       So you wear that. So if, if they knee you or kick you in the groin, it shreds their meat up on their knee or their foot, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       Right.

   12. PMPat Miletich17:28

       So that's what the old Thai fighters would do is that's wh- the way they would do their cups so that's how I started doing it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:34

       (laughs)

   14. PMPat Miletich17:34

       So if they're gonna low blow me, they're gonna shred their freaking (laughs) leg up.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       The problem with that is it also works if you get a guy and you mount him and you drive that thing into his sternum. Then you've got like barbs-

   16. PMPat Miletich17:44

       It hurts. Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       ... you're shoving into his sternum. That seems like a weapon.

   18. PMPat Miletich17:47

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:47

       Seems a little bit, seems a little bit like little cheating.

   20. PMPat Miletich17:50

       We... Uh, yeah, I... There was a couple other guys that did that back in the day, especially the Chicago circuit 'cause I was fighting kickboxing in Chicago a lot.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       Was Chicago like a rougher circuit?

   22. PMPat Miletich17:59

       Dude, it was, uh, they would do K-1 rules, Muay Thai, and then I started in the PKC style originally and I hated it because it was, you know, the light tree?... like, the dragsters. The old PKC-

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:10

       Uh-huh.

   24. PMPat Miletich18:10

       ... was you get one kick in, one light lights.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       Oh, yeah.

   26. PMPat Miletich18:12

       And you had to-

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       Yeah.

   28. PMPat Miletich18:13

       You had to have-

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       PKC, is that like PKA?

   30. PMPat Miletich18:16

       Yeah. Yeah, basically. It was all the same stuff, right.
10. 18:24 – 26:31

    Low kicks and Muay Thai clinch: the lesson TaeKwonDo didn’t teach

    1. PMPat Miletich18:24

       It was brutal. So when I started, I wasn't flexible, right? I was a wrestler-

    2. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       (laughs) Right.

    3. PMPat Miletich18:27

       ... you know, who had some boxing experience. And w- the reason they did that was so boxers wouldn't come in and destroy everybody.

    4. JRJoe Rogan18:32

       Right. Right, right.

    5. PMPat Miletich18:33

       So the karate guys could survive and do pretty well.

    6. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       Yeah.

    7. PMPat Miletich18:35

       So the, just having to get the allotted eight kicks per round, I hated it, because it was all kick above the waist. I wasn't that flexible. I was pretty shitty at kicks when I, when I first started, right? So it was just a waste of time, and then I, I ran into the Muay Thai thing and the K-1 rules fights, and I went, "This is my thing. (laughs) I can kick them in the legs, thank God."

    8. JRJoe Rogan18:54

       Yeah. Well, I remember the first time I got kicked in the leg. I was like, "Oh, this is such a game-changer." Because in TaeKwonDo, it was like-

    9. PMPat Miletich19:00

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan19:00

        ... it was illegal. It was illegal to kick below the waist.

    11. PMPat Miletich19:02

        Right.

    12. JRJoe Rogan19:03

        And it was legal to punch in the face.

    13. PMPat Miletich19:04

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan19:04

        So it was great for learning dexterity of the legs, but the f- the moment I started training with Thai guys-

    15. PMPat Miletich19:09

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan19:09

        ... and I got kicked once, just once, I went, "Oh."

    17. PMPat Miletich19:13

        (laughs)

    18. JRJoe Rogan19:13

        This, you should do this. This should be the thing. I was like, "Oh my God."

    19. PMPat Miletich19:16

        It's so painful. It's so painful.

    20. JRJoe Rogan19:17

        Well, it's weird.

    21. PMPat Miletich19:18

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan19:18

        It's not just painful. It's like your leg goes dead.

    23. PMPat Miletich19:20

        Yeah. Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan19:21

        It's this thump. There's this weird feeling. You're like, "Oh, Christ."

    25. PMPat Miletich19:25

        (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan19:25

        But it's so effective.

    27. PMPat Miletich19:26

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan19:27

        And also that you could do it from such a close range.

    29. PMPat Miletich19:30

        Right.

    30. JRJoe Rogan19:30

        You know?
11. 26:31 – 28:25

    Hard sparring philosophy: speed, safety, and coaching judgment calls

    1. JRJoe Rogan26:31

       (laughs) What do you think about that kind of sparring, though?

    2. PMPat Miletich26:34

       I think it's great.

    3. JRJoe Rogan26:35

       Do you think it's great to just g- go to war?

    4. PMPat Miletich26:36

       I just... You know, you can't... You know, there has to be a limit, obviously.

    5. JRJoe Rogan26:39

       Because the Thais don't do it like that at all.

    6. PMPat Miletich26:41

       Well, here's the thing, though. That's because the low kicks-

    7. JRJoe Rogan26:43

       They fight a lot.

    8. PMPat Miletich26:43

       ... the knees, the elbows, all that sort of stuff, but-

    9. JRJoe Rogan26:45

       It's also because they fight a lot.

    10. PMPat Miletich26:47

        Right, yeah. They're fighting every week.

    11. JRJoe Rogan26:48

        Yeah.

    12. PMPat Miletich26:48

        You know, so that, that's, that's your sparring. But, you know, the thing is, you can't... And I say it a million times, I've said it for years, you can't become a race car driver by going down the highway at 55.

    13. JRJoe Rogan26:58

        Mm-hmm.

    14. PMPat Miletich26:58

        You just don't have the reaction time. You're not used to that s- high speed, that high endurance. Everything else that goes on, you have to get used to that, and everything slows down eventually, right?

    15. JRJoe Rogan27:07

        Right.

    16. PMPat Miletich27:07

        With experience and time, things slow down for you. I can remember when I first started fighting kickboxing and everything was like a tunnel this big.

    17. JRJoe Rogan27:14

        Mm-hmm.

    18. PMPat Miletich27:15

        And all I could hear was me breathing. (breathing heavily)

    19. JRJoe Rogan27:16

        Right, right.

    20. PMPat Miletich27:18

        Right?

    21. JRJoe Rogan27:18

        Just from nerves and adrenaline.

    22. PMPat Miletich27:19

        Didn't hear anything else. But then later on in my career, you know, you'd see punches come at you and you'd move this slow.

    23. JRJoe Rogan27:25

        Mm-hmm, yeah.

    24. PMPat Miletich27:25

        But it was actually s-

    25. JRJoe Rogan27:27

        Right.

    26. PMPat Miletich27:27

        You know what I mean? So it just, it happens with time, and you've experienced that with everything you've done, right?

    27. JRJoe Rogan27:31

        Yeah, you just become-

    28. PMPat Miletich27:32

        With, with martial arts.

    29. JRJoe Rogan27:32

        ... more accustomed to it, and then you become more relaxed. But I wonder, like, is there a way to keep the speed, but at least take something off the shots? Or do you think-

    30. PMPat Miletich27:42

        Well, that, that's the thing is where you put the shin pads on, the headgear, the 16-ounce gloves. You go at high speed, you go hard, you hit takedowns hard, all that sort of stuff, you know, a couple times a week. But you, you know, you can't take that kind of punishment constantly.
12. 28:25 – 36:21

    Building Miletich Fighting Systems: the first American super-gym blueprint

    1. JRJoe Rogan28:25

       When you were running your gym, the Miletich Fighting Systems was the gym. I mean, you guys were the kings. You gotta think about who came out of your gym. Matt Hughes, Robbie Lawler, I mean, Jens Pulver, Tim Sylvia, and then a host of other killers that people just forgot.

    2. PMPat Miletich28:41

       Yeah. The... You know, we had a lot of people obviously that would come and train with us. Rich Franklin, um, Dave Monet, who was 85-pound champ for a while. He was, uh, he was one of the best martial artists I've ever seen. People don't even know about him. The guy was incredible. Trained with Greg Nelson for a good portion of his career-

    3. JRJoe Rogan28:57

       Yeah.

    4. PMPat Miletich28:57

       ... obviously, but... I think we had... 92 people made it to televised careers, and I think 30 or so made it to the UFC, you know?

    5. JRJoe Rogan29:04

       That's pretty impressive.

    6. PMPat Miletich29:04

       So it's, you know, when I added it all up, somebody asked me to do that, and I added it all up and I went through all the, the televised cards that I remembered, it was, I think 92 people, and I thought, "You know? That... It's pretty impressive. We had a lot of killers." We had a lot of killers.

    7. JRJoe Rogan29:18

       Yeah, and you also were the first big super gym.

    8. PMPat Miletich29:23

       Right.

    9. JRJoe Rogan29:23

       Like, this... You were the first big American gym that was producing, like, world champions -

    10. PMPat Miletich29:28

        Besides, like, the Lion's Den, I guess.

    11. JRJoe Rogan29:30

        Well, that's true.

    12. PMPat Miletich29:31

        You know?

    13. JRJoe Rogan29:31

        The Lion's Den too. Yeah, I guess they were the first.

    14. PMPat Miletich29:33

        We had a good-

    15. JRJoe Rogan29:33

        So you were, you guys were all in the mix.

    16. PMPat Miletich29:34

        We had a good rivalry with them, though.

    17. JRJoe Rogan29:35

        Yeah.

    18. PMPat Miletich29:36

        We had a good rivalry.

    19. JRJoe Rogan29:36

        That's true. Well, the Lion's Den didn't produce as many world champions. I mean, really ba- basically you had Frank and Ken and, and who else came out of the Lion's Den?

    20. PMPat Miletich29:43

        Trey Tellemann.

    21. JRJoe Rogan29:44

        Yeah, but like-

    22. PMPat Miletich29:44

        Uh, Guy Metzger.

    23. JRJoe Rogan29:46

        Guy Metzger was a world champion.

    24. PMPat Miletich29:47

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan29:48

        Yeah. Yeah, Metzger, uh, also had that kickboxing background too.

    26. PMPat Miletich29:52

        Right, yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan29:52

        You know, he, he had more of an American-style kickboxing background too.

    28. PMPat Miletich29:55

        Yeah, and the wrestling.

    29. JRJoe Rogan29:56

        Yeah.

    30. PMPat Miletich29:56

        He had wrestled before and stuff, so that helped him.
13. 36:21 – 45:13

    Farm strength legends: Matt Hughes stories, gym monsters, and freak athleticism

    1. PMPat Miletich36:21

       You know? And that's ... And when Hughes was in his prime, I remember when he first ... I refereed his second fight, and he destroyed some poor Brazilian. And the guy was a really good legit black belt, and Hughes beat him half to death. And it was in Chicago, I refereed it. And I walked up to him and I go, "Dude, you ever come to Iowa, I know I'll make you a world champ. There is just no doubt in my mind." That was the only guy I ever said that to, the only guy I ever recruited, to be honest with you, for the most part. So Hughes shows up, he drives three and a half hours from Hillsboro, Illinois. I've got bronchitis at the time, which would, made it even worse. And he goes, "Here I am. Um, let's, let's get this workout in," right? So we wrestled and grappled, you know, from takedowns to submissions, everything else. And about 30 minutes into it, I can't breathe. And this guy is a monster. I'd had him in 50 submissions and he's shaken out of all of them, literally, just like bounced me off the walls.

    2. JRJoe Rogan37:12

       (laughs)

    3. PMPat Miletich37:12

       He's so fucking strong, I couldn't believe it. And I was, I was a strong guy. I mean, at the time ...... I was probably benching 365, could dunk a basketball and run a 4.4 40. So I was not a slouch athlete when I was in my prime. And I couldn't believe this guy. I had never experienced somebody my size being this strong in my life. And so-

    4. JRJoe Rogan37:30

       That farmer strength shit is real.

    5. PMPat Miletich37:31

       It, it is real.

    6. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       (laughs)

    7. PMPat Miletich37:32

       And I grew up having to wrestle farmers, trust me. Uh, the Royce Algers and all those psychopaths, right?

    8. JRJoe Rogan37:37

       Yeah. Yeah.

    9. PMPat Miletich37:38

       But I, I said to him, I go, "Hold on, man." I go, "I can't breathe. I got bronchitis." And he goes, "Fuck you." He goes, "I don't care what you got. I drove three and a half hours, we're working out." And he grabbed me-

    10. JRJoe Rogan37:47

        (laughs)

    11. PMPat Miletich37:48

        ... and fucking train doubled me onto my back (laughs) all the way across the room, slams me.

    12. JRJoe Rogan37:52

        (laughs)

    13. PMPat Miletich37:52

        He's like, "All right, we're here. Let's get it on." So I got him in one guillotine, I lifted him off his feet, I ran him backwards and ran him as hard as I could ass first into the wall. I mean, I was j- I was trying to kill him. I was so pissed 'cause he, he was just a freak. And he went limp. He went unconscious for a second, so I let go of it and he slid down the wall, hit his knees, woke back up, and train doubled me again onto my back.

    14. JRJoe Rogan38:12

        (laughs)

    15. PMPat Miletich38:12

        And we're back at it, right? (laughs) And so we get done, we get done with this hour-something workout of just go, go, go. And I look at him and I go, "Dude, what are you on?" And he goes, "What do you mean?" I go, "W- what are you taking? Are you on some fucking steroids or what?" And he goes, and he got pissed, and he goes, "Don't ever accuse me of that again." He goes, "Fuck you." He goes, "Don't ever say that again. Never." That was like the one thing where if somebody said anything like that, he was so offended. 'Cause he was just a farm boy. His brother was frigging just as strong if not stronger.

    16. JRJoe Rogan38:44

        Right. Yeah, his brother was a gorilla too.

    17. PMPat Miletich38:46

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan38:46

        And his brother fought in the UFC once, right?

    19. PMPat Miletich38:48

        Yeah, and walking back to the locker room after that fight, his brother, Mark, goes, "That wasn't really all that I, I expected."

    20. JRJoe Rogan38:54

        (laughs)

    21. PMPat Miletich38:55

        "I, I really, I ... It was fun, but I, I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm gonna, I don't enjoy that that much."

    22. JRJoe Rogan39:00

        Wow.

    23. PMPat Miletich39:00

        And he killed the guy. He beat the shit out of him, right?

    24. JRJoe Rogan39:03

        Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I mean, even identical twins-

    25. PMPat Miletich39:06

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan39:06

        ... they don't necessarily think identically, right?

    27. PMPat Miletich39:09

        Right, right, yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan39:09

        Yeah, Matt was a, he was a real freak, and a real important figure in the history of MMA.

    29. PMPat Miletich39:15

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan39:15

        You know? Like, 'cause y- you gotta think, 1993 it all starts, and then from then on, it's been sort of a, this learning experience trying to figure out what works and what doesn't work.
14. 45:13 – 48:04

    Functional fitness before CrossFit: Indian clubs, Turner Halls, and Ed Thomas

    1. PMPat Miletich45:13

       So, your gym, having all that true functional fit... Like, uh, to see Indian clubs in your gym, I went, "All right, he gets it."

    2. JRJoe Rogan45:20

       Yeah.

    3. PMPat Miletich45:20

       Like, he really gets it. Indian clubs. I collect all the old ones.

    4. JRJoe Rogan45:23

       Oh, really?

    5. PMPat Miletich45:24

       Old antique wood ones.

    6. JRJoe Rogan45:25

       Like iron sheath? An iron sheath, you see these as?

    7. PMPat Miletich45:26

       The huge wood ones, right?

    8. JRJoe Rogan45:27

       Yeah.

    9. PMPat Miletich45:27

       All that sort of stuff.

    10. JRJoe Rogan45:28

        Yeah.

    11. PMPat Miletich45:29

        So, a guy named Ed Thomas taught me about true functional fitness long before any of this CrossFit crap and all this stuff came out, right?

    12. JRJoe Rogan45:35

        Oh, wow.

    13. PMPat Miletich45:35

        So Ed Thomas, Dr. Ed Thomas... And I didn't know he was a doctor. He just showed up at my gym one day. He walks in, a little unassuming dude, and he goes, "Hey." He goes, "Pat," he goes, "I'm Ed Thomas." He goes, "Do you have time for me to teach you some stuff?" And I went, "Sure," you know, whatever. It was the middle of the day. Nothing was going on. So he brings in Indian clubs, kettlebells, old med- medicine balls, old leather stuff. And I'd, at the time, never seen any of this stuff. I didn't know anything about it. Well, he was raised in the Turner Halls in Davenport, Iowa, and that's where he learned functional fitness. And the Turner Halls were brought by the Germans here because the, the Germans used Turner Halls back in Germany to train a generation to become warriors to protect the nation. And that's where that mentality came from. So everything they did was cargo nets, pommel horses, Indian clubs, uh, heavy kettlebells, all kinds of crazy just functional fitness stuff.

    14. JRJoe Rogan46:23

        So they would climb cargo nets?

    15. PMPat Miletich46:25

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan46:25

        And s-

    17. PMPat Miletich46:25

        Serpentine inside of them.

    18. JRJoe Rogan46:27

        Mm-hmm.

    19. PMPat Miletich46:27

        Uh, they would swing the cargo nets and the kids would serpentine in and out of them as it was swinging.

    20. JRJoe Rogan46:31

        Oh, wow.

    21. PMPat Miletich46:31

        All kinds of crazy stuff, right? Um, definitely the rings. They were doing a lot of the ring stuff and power, you know, being able to do iron crosses.

    22. JRJoe Rogan46:38

        Mm-hmm.

    23. PMPat Miletich46:38

        All that sort of stuff. That's the way they raised their kids. And so he was, at the time, I think, and still is one of the first and foremost guys on functional fitness. He was the guy that taught me how to train upside down with gravity boots.

    24. JRJoe Rogan46:49

        Hmm.

    25. PMPat Miletich46:49

        Doing all kinds of crazy stuff with medicine balls and kettlebells and bands, and everything else you could do standing up, you could do upside down, and he rebuilt me at the time. But he came in, taught me for an hour. He said, "I'll leave this equipment here with you."

    26. JRJoe Rogan47:03

        Mm-hmm.

    27. PMPat Miletich47:03

        "You can teach your guys what I taught you and I'll come back, you know, another time." And I was like, "Yeah." And we were talking for a second, and I got on the phone, and I turned around and he was gone. Well, he's... He was a... Three times in Vietnam, he was a tunnel rat. He signed up for extra tours. He would go in and kill the Viet Cong, sleep, sleep amongst the bodies, and then go back out and find another tunnel and kill people again.

    28. JRJoe Rogan47:24

        Jesus.

    29. PMPat Miletich47:24

        That's what he did for three years. Just hardcore guy. But, um, the guy that owned Taekwondo Times at, at the time, his kid was training underneath me. And he goes, "I heard you met a friend of mine." I go, "Who's that?" He goes, "Dr. Ed Thomas." And I go, "Well, he didn't say he was a doctor, but I could tell he was one of the most intelligent people I've ever met in my life." He goes, "Yeah, he's, he's a scholar. I mean, this guy's a warrior genius," right? "This... He's ama-" And he's still, he's still up in Des Moines, Iowa. Haven't talked to him for a few years, but that guy taught me what real fitness was about.

    30. JRJoe Rogan47:54

        Wow. This... What year was this?
15. 48:04 – 1:01:39

    From nightclub brawls to wild animals: head trauma claims, dogs, and dangerous pets

    1. PMPat Miletich48:04

       I never had a concussion, I will say that.

    2. JRJoe Rogan48:06

       Well, you must have.

    3. PMPat Miletich48:06

       Never had a concussion.

    4. JRJoe Rogan48:07

       Really?

    5. PMPat Miletich48:07

       Nope.

    6. JRJoe Rogan48:08

       Well, what is a concussion? A co- concussion is like, well, they check your pupils, they're not dilating correctly.

    7. PMPat Miletich48:13

       None of it. None of it. None of it.

    8. JRJoe Rogan48:14

       No concussions at all?

    9. PMPat Miletich48:16

       No.

    10. JRJoe Rogan48:16

        All that hard sparring?

    11. PMPat Miletich48:17

        Nope. Never.

    12. JRJoe Rogan48:18

        I find that hard to believe. That seems weird.

    13. PMPat Miletich48:19

        I never got hit with a shot that I didn't see coming, and I think that's the difference.

    14. JRJoe Rogan48:22

        Ever?

    15. PMPat Miletich48:23

        Nope. Nope.

    16. JRJoe Rogan48:24

        Wow.

    17. PMPat Miletich48:24

        Besides one time in a huge fight where a dude hit me in the side of the head with a brick and I saw it last second, and I at least rolled with it.

    18. JRJoe Rogan48:30

        And that didn't give you a concussion?

    19. PMPat Miletich48:31

        He'll... He, I... He, uh...... it was a huge br- it was hip hop night at the nightclub I was bouncing at.

    20. JRJoe Rogan48:36

        Oh, sounds like fun. (laughs)

    21. PMPat Miletich48:37

        And the, (laughs) and, and the Illinois gangbangers and the Iowa gangbangers started going at it.

    22. JRJoe Rogan48:42

        Oh, God.

    23. PMPat Miletich48:42

        And I tried breaking it up, and they all attacked me, right?

    24. JRJoe Rogan48:45

        Oh, Jesus.

    25. PMPat Miletich48:46

        So that's when I ... Everybody was wear- it was wintertime, so I was choking people. A guy got me in a headlock, and I was grabbing people by their coat lapels.

    26. JRJoe Rogan48:52

        (laughs)

    27. PMPat Miletich48:53

        And I put my head in between his head and his head, and I'd choke him unconscious. I'd find a new coat.

    28. JRJoe Rogan48:57

        (laughs)

    29. PMPat Miletich48:57

        And I was working my way backwards out the front door, and finally snuck out of the headlock, put him in a rear choke, went backwards out the door. He went limp. I dropped him, and then as I turned to get out into the street, 'cause there was cops everywhere at that point. There's dogs. There's f- it's a snowstorm. Last second, I see this coming at the side of my head, and I duck, and it bounces off my head. And this dude goes, "Yeah," like I was gonna go down. And I turned, and I looked at him and rifled him with a right hand and knocked him out. (laughs) And then the next thing you know, there's just dogs diving into the crowd.

    30. JRJoe Rogan49:25

        Whoa.

Episode duration: 2:57:03