The Joe Rogan ExperienceJRE MMA Show #45 with Justin Wren & Rafael Lovato Jr.
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,045 words- 0:00 – 15:00
Five, four, three, two,…
- JRJoe Rogan
Five, four, three, two, one. Boom, and we're live with my friend, Justin Wren in the house, and one of the baddest motherfuckers on the planet-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... Rafael Lovato.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
Dude, I'm bummed that you're f- I'm happy that you're doing well, but I'm bummed you're fighting for Bellator.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Aw.
- JRJoe Rogan
I really am, man. I wanna, I wanna commentate your fights. I, I know for a fact that Bellator right now is like, is, is high, it's a higher level than it's ever been before.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Right.
- JWJustin Wren
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, you look at,they've got Mousasi, you, Rory MacDonald, uh, Lima, uh, you know-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Machida's about to fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Paul Daley, Machida. I mean, it's fucking high level now, man. It's like Bellator is, uh, very close to comparable. Still, I would love to see you over in the UFC.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yeah? Well, we'll see what happens. But right now, I'm, I'm really happy where I'm at.
- JRJoe Rogan
How old are you now?
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
I'm 35.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you d- didn't start MMA until you were, like, 31, 32?
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yes, 31. I was, four, four years ago.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
2014 was my first fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Were you doing a lot of MMA training before that? Because y- y- when you're, you were ... For people that don't know, you're one of the most accomplished Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belts in the world, and when you were competing as, uh, Brazilian jiu-jitsu martial artist, were you training striking? Were you training other things as well?
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Well, uh, you know, that's, uh, kind of my life story, I guess. Um, you know, um, uh, my father is a lifetime martial artist, and so I had a whole martial arts upgr- uh, upbringing well before I ever found out about Brazilian jiu-jitsu. My father was a Jeet Kune Do instructor, and so growing up, um, you know, the main thing that we were training in when I was a child was, uh, the Jeet Kune Do system, uh, which was basically mixed martial arts before mixed martial arts. You know, uh, Bruce Lee's philosophy was way ahead of his time. He believed in, um, you know, learning from all the arts and creating your own personal system of self-defense, um, that involved, you know, each range of combat. And so, you know, I grew up doing, uh, several different forms of martial arts, um, uh, boxing, Muay Thai, Escrima, Wing Chun, Penjak Silat. I mean, you name it, I've probably done it. And when my father discovered Brazilian jiu-jitsu, uh, I was an early teenager, like around 12 years old. He learned about Brazilian jiu-jitsu in one of the Jeet Kune Do instructor conferences that takes place in California. They brought in the Gracies. Um, they had, you know, they did, like, shoot fighting and different sort of, you know, martial arts incl- that included grappling, uh, but it was very, you know, rough and not n- near the, th- the technique that, that Brazilian jiu-jitsu has. Uh, so whenever he first started learning Brazilian jiu-jitsu, he fell in love with it. My dad's a s- a smaller guy. Uh, at that time, he was probably, like, 145, 150 pounds, and so it was perfect for him, and he fell in love with it, and he comes home and he starts telling me about Brazilian jiu-jitsu and teaching me what he learned. Um, and we lived in Oklahoma, and the instructor conference was in California. At that time, basically the only jiu-jitsu was in California, maybe a little bit in Florida, and then Renzo was in New York. So everything was as far as possible from us because we were right there in the middle of the country. And, you know, he fell in love with Brazilian jiu-jitsu and so he started making trips to California to learn Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and I was just a teenager. I'm a young kid, so, you know, I was already, uh, doing some boxing at the time. Uh, I was competing in amateur boxing, and I'm, I'm used to training with adults, and once I started learning Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you know, i- I fell in love with it right away because that gave me something that I could do where I could be competitive with the adults right away. You know? I was a long, lanky kid, um, and the guard just, you know, felt natural to me, and just being on the ground, I really loved it and I loved that the, the technique of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, how, how technical it was and, and the science of it. Um, so I fell in love with it right away, and I mean, uh, we, we sacrificed a lot to learn jiu-jitsu being in Oklahoma. Um, always traveled, uh, to learn. The first time I went to Brazil I was 16 years old.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
It was in 1999, uh, to, to train and compete in the world championships. And, you know, we just never stopped, and, and we became the first American father and son Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belts. Uh, but, you know, going back to your question, the, the full spectrum of martial arts was always in my blood, um, you know. Even as, uh, a jiu-jitsu competitor, you know, someone that found his passion in jiu-jitsu, I still considered myself a martial artist first and foremost, not just a, a jiu-jitsu practitioner. And so it was always in the plans to one day do MMA, um, but I really wanted to go as far as I could in, in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. You know, I was there when BJ Penn won the world championships in 2000, and I watched him win and I said, "You know, man, I really wanna be the next American to, to win the worlds." That immediately became, like, my, my big life goal, my first life goal, and, uh, and I achieved that in 2007, but, you know, I ... Like, we all saw BJ go straight to MMA after he won. He never even did another tournament, you know? That was the only tournament he ever did as a black belt was the worlds. And he won and then, and then switched to MMA, and so I really wanted to be an American, you know, um, just kind of representing for us in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Um, competing at that high level and winning as much as possible, and kind of ... You know, at that time, it wasn't like today. You know, the worlds were still in Brazil, um, uh, th- the sport was just dominated by Brazilians and pretty much still is today, but, you know, now we've, we've come a long way. And I just wanted to be that force to show everyone, like, "Hey, we can do it." You know what I mean? We're, uh, w- you know, it's possible, you know, because at that time, it was, it was, um, a whole nother scene, you know? The world's in Brazil. At the end of the, at the tournament, you're lucky if you had a handful of non-Brazilians on the podium at all the belts, you know, including blue, purple, brown, I mean, all the belts, let alone black belt. And so I, I stayed in the sport to really try to get a second gold. That was the, the main thing that was keeping me in it, um, to win a second gold at the worlds as a black belt. Uh, I ended up medaling eight times. Never got that second gold, but, uh, towards the end, I was just like, "You know?"... it's time to, to switch, you know. I really felt like, um, MMA was calling me. Jiu-jitsu was getting a little too comfortable, um, you know, and I'd been fight-
- JRJoe Rogan
A lit- a little too comfortable?
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yeah, like, it wasn't motivating me and inspiring me the same way that it was in the beginning. You know, I kind of lost a little bit of that hunger, uh, just because I'd been at the, the, that level for so long and I've already, you know, competed against the, the best guys of my generation so many times. And, uh, you know, it didn't take a lot for me to, to get ready, you know. I was kind of just used to it, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
It was the same tournaments, the same season, year after year.
- JRJoe Rogan
Same guys.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
And it was just... Yeah, same guys. Uh, it, it just stopped bringing out the fire. Now, every now and then I felt it, you know, especially when I went back to compete in Brazil. Uh, you know, the world switched to the US in, in 2007, the year that I won it, and so I, I stopped having that thing to, to push me to go to Brazil to compete. Um, and so I went back a couple of times to compete in the Brazilian Nationals and I had really good performances there. I ended up winning the absolute in 2013 in Brazil, uh, the, the all weight class division. Uh, became the first non-Brazilian to ever win a major absolute title, and I did it in Brazil. That was the day I was extremely inspired, you know. Uh, competing in Brazil brought that out of me. But, uh, I just didn't feel that way all the time, you know. Uh, just got too used to it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Yes. Yes, it's a…
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yes. Yes, it's a long walk.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a long distance.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
I feel so bad that I can't remember the name. Um, yeah, it's like a six-week walk.
- JWJustin Wren
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Um, and, and you end at a, at a special cathedral. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yeah, the Camino.
- JRJoe Rogan
Spain, pilgrimage.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
The Camino. Oh my God.
- JRJoe Rogan
El Camino de Santiago.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yes. Yes. Uh, and the Santiago is the cathedral. There it is, the picture there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
So, he did that. Um, and so he had, of course he had to fly to Spain to do it. And so, he-
- JRJoe Rogan
Fly to Spain to walk six week-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yes.
- JWJustin Wren
There's special guys-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
He trained for it, and, you know, and he, that was one of the major-
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you train to walk six weeks?
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Uh, well, you wear in a backpack, and so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
... every day he would, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So he would backpack and camp out-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for six weeks?
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
He just back- backpacked through. They have special hostels that he would stay in on the walk. I mean, there's a lot of people that do it. Uh, you know, you're not gonna be by yourself. There's people doing it all year round.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, so it's like that trail in Georgia. What is that called again?
- GUGuest
Appalachian Trail.
- 30:00 – 45:00
Hmm. …
- JWJustin Wren
that the bone would stick through.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Hmm.
- JWJustin Wren
It would stick through and, like, stab into the mat and that there's no way he could wrestle. And he looked at his mom and dad and he thought about it for months and he said, "Mom and Dad, what if we just cut it off?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Jesus.
- JWJustin Wren
And they're like, "What?" And Nic says, "What if you just cut off my arm? Can, can I wrestle then? You know, my other arm's good."
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JWJustin Wren
And, uh, they said, "Nic, you're being pretty extreme here. Let's not call it cutting it off. Let's call it amputation and, uh, and no, you can't do that." Well, he just kept pushing the issue. There he is right there. And his Instagram is-
- JRJoe Rogan
So he wound up getting it cut off?
- JWJustin Wren
Yep. So right there, it used to be five or six inches longer than that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my God.
- JWJustin Wren
And he went and got it lasered off. And what he says is that he wants, uh... So yeah, buddies with The Rock. Um, he's a bodybuilder too. He, he just wrote a book. It's available on Amazon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Holy shit.
- JWJustin Wren
Um, I think it's called like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Holy shit.
- JWJustin Wren
... From Victim to Victor. Yeah, I mean that, that tire flip on his Instagram, it's wild if, if, if you wanna pull that up. But it's, um, he's a really inspirational guy to me. And, uh, he, like, literally, so, uh, on that top left picture, um, he calls that on his other arm, he calls that his potato. That's what he calls it. Um, but he had to have five or six inches cut off so that he could wrestle.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJustin Wren
Um, and, uh-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Wow.
- JWJustin Wren
... really inspirational guy to me. He's been on, like, Ed Mylett's podcast and Lewis Howes and, um, his stories there are incredibly inspirational. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
I thought the Neal Melanson story was crazy.
- JWJustin Wren
What's that?
- JRJoe Rogan
You know Neal Melanson?
- JWJustin Wren
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The... He, uh, he broke his toe real bad.
- JWJustin Wren
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, they were saying he couldn't roll for six months. He had to put in a splint. He said-... how about you just cut it off? (laughs)
- JWJustin Wren
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they said, "Okay." (laughs)
- JWJustin Wren
So they did it.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know what? (laughs) You've seen Neal Mullane-
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
I was honestly shocked…
- JWJustin Wren
if it's something that was illegal or hurt somebody, maybe don't use that for promotion.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was honestly shocked that they were using it in promotion. I was like, "Well, I shouldn't be shocked." I thought that when I saw the promo and I saw the, the, the dolly flying at the bus and then the video from the inside with the glass shattering, I was like, "Okay, I guess I shouldn't be shocked because it did happen, you know, it is a part of the story." But I mean, is this, is this encouraging this? Like what is... I mean, they're using it-
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to sell the biggest fight in the history of the sport, turned out to be true.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is the biggest fight in the history of the sport. Is that good?
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That doesn't seem good.
- RJRafael Lovato Jr.
No.
- JWJustin Wren
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems, it seems, I don't know, man.
- JWJustin Wren
Not from my perspective.
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's, you know, it's entertainment versus sport, right? Wh- when it comes to sport, like you'd never use that to, to advertise the Olympics.
- JWJustin Wren
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? They would never have an assault to advertise the Olympics. But this is something different. It's commerce. There's a lot of money involved. It's a, it's a huge cultural spectacle. It's Conor McGregor, who's... He transcends sport. He's this superstar in just the world of just show business, so it's different.
- JWJustin Wren
It's different, but at the same time, what... This might be more for the purist or hardcore MMA fan or, or martial artist that competes, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJustin Wren
... but what, what originally drew you to the martial arts? I mean, I haven't heard that firsthand from you, but, but what drew you to the sport initially?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I mean, (sighs) like Raphael, I found out about Bruce Lee when I was a kid. I mean, Bruce Lee was the first. I saw those Bruce Lee movies, I lived in New Jersey in an apartment complex and my, uh, my superintendent of the apartment complex, his son was my age. And I went over to his house, we watched a Bruce Lee movie and I was like, "Holy shit, look at this." And they had, he, the kid had nunchuks and shit and I whacked myself in the back of the head-
- JWJustin Wren
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... trying to practice nunchuks. But I remember watching that guy throw kicks and, you know, jumping off of tables and beating the fuck out of all these dudes who were coming out, like, "Ba, ya?" And every kid wanted to be Bruce Lee. Every kid wanted to be Bruce Lee. And, um, then I, I took kung fu class, and then I took karate, and then I got into TaeKwonDo, and then I got into Muay Thai and all these other different things. But to me, it was just, martial arts was, um, you know, it was, it was a way to learn how to fight, first of all, for sure. But then it was also a way to test yourself. But it was always, there was no shit-talking back then in martial arts tournaments. There was no, there was no trash-talking. Even if, you know, there was like little subtle things that people would say to each other at the weigh-in, under each other's breath, like, "I'm gonna fuck you up," or something like that. It was very quiet. And it was very little of that. Most of it was, uh, bowing, you know, shaking hands, and then there was just the fight. But there was also no money involved, it was just fighting, you know? And I think that when you're, you're dealing with money, and you're dealing with promotion, let's, let's just be completely honest. Conor throwing that dolly at the bus and Conor talking all that shit probably made that fight twice as big. Maybe it would have got one million pay-per-view buys, it wound up getting two and a half million. I- it's worth a lot of fucking money. Think about two and a half million versus o- what one extra million people buying it at whatever the fuck it cost. What does it cost, 70 bucks or something?
- JWJustin Wren
Ours was $64.99.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a lot of money, man.
- JWJustin Wren
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Talking about a lot of money. You know? And then, it's worth more for other fights because the whole card was so amazing, it's gonna get more people to watch the next card.
- JWJustin Wren
What was your favorite card, favorite moment of the night? Was it Derrick Lewis?
- JRJoe Rogan
Derrick Lewis.
- JWJustin Wren
Or Tony?
- JRJoe Rogan
Derrick Lewis.
- JWJustin Wren
Derrick Lewis.
- 1:00:00 – 1:08:08
Which is smart. …
- JRJoe Rogan
So what they do is they come in, they randomly drug test fighters, they, they make sure the fighters give their whereabouts at all times. They have to register and log in and let everybody know wherever, wherever they are, and if they violate that, USADA hands out the punishment. And we've seen these punishments and they're strict. They're very severe. And they, they, they take away a fighter's ability to make an... A living if they violate any of their policies or if they test positive for any supplements. They've since made, uh, what I think is a welcome amendment where, um, if, if, if a fighter... If it's possible that it's a tainted supplement or they have a trace amount of something in, in their... They don't say anything until after it's resolved. So instead of like putting the fighter on blast and putting it out there to the whole world, "Hey, this guy tested positive," instead of doing that, they resolve it and then-
- GUGuest
Which is smart.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, which is the way they should do it.
- GUGuest
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But still, look at a guy like Josh Barnett, okay? Josh Barnett was ultimately exonerated, but he had to go like two years where he couldn't make a living and when you're... Josh is 40 years old. This... That's fucking-
- GUGuest
You don't have two years to spare.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't have two years to spare. Right, that's fucking crazy. So... But my point is, that is a completely independent entity, right? It's outside of the UFC's ability to... They don't control that, they step back, they take care of it. It kind of should be that way w- when it comes to who gets to fight for the title.
- GUGuest
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
If a title is a title, like if it's... If it's the world championship and you look at a guy like Tony Ferguson, I think... I believe he's 11 and one in the UFC, right? He's on this crazy win streak.
- GUGuest
Win streak.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's fucking beating... You look at his, his like who's who of who he's beaten.
- GUGuest
Crazy dominating-
- JRJoe Rogan
Barboza, Kevin Lee. I mean-
- GUGuest
There's really no one else for him to fight. He has to fight for this title. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's beating the elites. Oh, the only person he hasn't beaten is Conor and Khabib.
- GUGuest
Khabib.
- JRJoe Rogan
Those are the two guys. Fuck, man. I mean, what do you-
- GUGuest
Give them to him, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you gotta-
- GUGuest
Let him prove himself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Look, if you looked at it that way, you would say he's next, but-... if you were Mr. Money Bags and you're like, "Ooh, Conor wants a rematch? Oh, Conor'll give you a rematch." Come on, baby.
- GUGuest
Yeah, that's another area where the sport and entertainment crosses.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Right.
- JWJustin Wren
What, what do you think about tournaments coming back to the UFC? Or, I mean, they haven't done that, but what do you think about them doing that for finding out who's going to fight for the title? Bellator is doing it now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJustin Wren
PFL's been doing it. My buddy, Josh Copeland, uh, just made it to... He was ranked eighth seed, um, came in, fought two times one night.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJustin Wren
Um, and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
And Vini Magalhaes as well, right?
Episode duration: 2:03:33
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode aLRIQADKrak
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome