JRE MMA Show #45 with Justin Wren & Rafael Lovato Jr.

Joe Rogan 0:01 Five, four, three, two, one. Boom, and we're live with my friend, Justin Wren in the house, and one of the baddest motherfuckers on the planet-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:12 ... Rafael Lovato.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:14 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Dude, I'm bummed that you're f- I'm happy that you're doing well, but I'm bummed you're fighting for Bellator.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:19 Aw.

Joe Rogan 0:20 I really am, man. I wanna, I wanna commentate your fights. I, I know for a fact that Bellator right now is like, is, is high, it's a higher level than it's ever been before.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:29 Right.

Justin Wren 0:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:29 I mean, you look at,they've got Mousasi, you, Rory MacDonald, uh, Lima, uh, you know-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:37 Machida's about to fight.

Joe Rogan 0:38 ... Paul Daley, Machida. I mean, it's fucking high level now, man. It's like Bellator is, uh, very close to comparable. Still, I would love to see you over in the UFC.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:49 Yeah? Well, we'll see what happens. But right now, I'm, I'm really happy where I'm at.

Joe Rogan 0:53 How old are you now?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:53 I'm 35.

Joe Rogan 0:54 And you d- didn't start MMA until you were, like, 31, 32?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 0:58 Yes, 31. I was, four, four years ago.

Joe Rogan 1:00 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 1:00 2014 was my first fight.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Were you doing a lot of MMA training before that? Because y- y- when you're, you were ... For people that don't know, you're one of the most accomplished Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belts in the world, and when you were competing as, uh, Brazilian jiu-jitsu martial artist, were you training striking? Were you training other things as well?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 1:20 Well, uh, you know, that's, uh, kind of my life story, I guess. Um, you know, um, uh, my father is a lifetime martial artist, and so I had a whole martial arts upgr- uh, upbringing well before I ever found out about Brazilian jiu-jitsu. My father was a Jeet Kune Do instructor, and so growing up, um, you know, the main thing that we were training in when I was a child was, uh, the Jeet Kune Do system, uh, which was basically mixed martial arts before mixed martial arts. You know, uh, Bruce Lee's philosophy was way ahead of his time. He believed in, um, you know, learning from all the arts and creating your own personal system of self-defense, um, that involved, you know, each range of combat. And so, you know, I grew up doing, uh, several different forms of martial arts, um, uh, boxing, Muay Thai, Escrima, Wing Chun, Penjak Silat. I mean, you name it, I've probably done it. And when my father discovered Brazilian jiu-jitsu, uh, I was an early teenager, like around 12 years old. He learned about Brazilian jiu-jitsu in one of the Jeet Kune Do instructor conferences that takes place in California. They brought in the Gracies. Um, they had, you know, they did, like, shoot fighting and different sort of, you know, martial arts incl- that included grappling, uh, but it was very, you know, rough and not n- near the, th- the technique that, that Brazilian jiu-jitsu has. Uh, so whenever he first started learning Brazilian jiu-jitsu, he fell in love with it. My dad's a s- a smaller guy. Uh, at that time, he was probably, like, 145, 150 pounds, and so it was perfect for him, and he fell in love with it, and he comes home and he starts telling me about Brazilian jiu-jitsu and teaching me what he learned. Um, and we lived in Oklahoma, and the instructor conference was in California. At that time, basically the only jiu-jitsu was in California, maybe a little bit in Florida, and then Renzo was in New York. So everything was as far as possible from us because we were right there in the middle of the country. And, you know, he fell in love with Brazilian jiu-jitsu and so he started making trips to California to learn Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and I was just a teenager. I'm a young kid, so, you know, I was already, uh, doing some boxing at the time. Uh, I was competing in amateur boxing, and I'm, I'm used to training with adults, and once I started learning Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you know, i- I fell in love with it right away because that gave me something that I could do where I could be competitive with the adults right away. You know? I was a long, lanky kid, um, and the guard just, you know, felt natural to me, and just being on the ground, I really loved it and I loved that the, the technique of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, how, how technical it was and, and the science of it. Um, so I fell in love with it right away, and I mean, uh, we, we sacrificed a lot to learn jiu-jitsu being in Oklahoma. Um, always traveled, uh, to learn. The first time I went to Brazil I was 16 years old.

Joe Rogan 4:12 Wow.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 4:12 It was in 1999, uh, to, to train and compete in the world championships. And, you know, we just never stopped, and, and we became the first American father and son Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belts. Uh, but, you know, going back to your question, the, the full spectrum of martial arts was always in my blood, um, you know. Even as, uh, a jiu-jitsu competitor, you know, someone that found his passion in jiu-jitsu, I still considered myself a martial artist first and foremost, not just a, a jiu-jitsu practitioner.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 4:43 And so it was always in the plans to one day do MMA, um, but I really wanted to go as far as I could in, in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. You know, I was there when BJ Penn won the world championships in 2000, and I watched him win and I said, "You know, man, I really wanna be the next American to, to win the worlds." That immediately became, like, my, my big life goal, my first life goal, and, uh, and I achieved that in 2007, but, you know, I ... Like, we all saw BJ go straight to MMA after he won. He never even did another tournament, you know? That was the only tournament he ever did as a black belt was the worlds. And he won and then, and then switched to MMA, and so I really wanted to be an American, you know, um, just kind of representing for us in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Um, competing at that high level and winning as much as possible, and kind of ... You know, at that time, it wasn't like today. You know, the worlds were still in Brazil, um, uh, th- the sport was just dominated by Brazilians and pretty much still is today, but, you know, now we've, we've come a long way. And I just wanted to be that force to show everyone, like, "Hey, we can do it." You know what I mean? We're, uh, w- you know, it's possible, you know, because at that time, it was, it was, um, a whole nother scene, you know? The world's in Brazil. At the end of the, at the tournament, you're lucky if you had a handful of non-Brazilians on the podium at all the belts, you know, including blue, purple, brown, I mean, all the belts, let alone black belt. And so I, I stayed in the sport to really try to get a second gold. That was the, the main thing that was keeping me in it, um, to win a second gold at the worlds as a black belt.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 6:14 Uh, I ended up medaling eight times. Never got that second gold, but, uh, towards the end, I was just like, "You know?"... it's time to, to switch, you know. I really felt like, um, MMA was calling me. Jiu-jitsu was getting a little too comfortable, um, you know, and I'd been fight-

Joe Rogan 6:31 A lit- a little too comfortable?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 6:32 Yeah, like, it wasn't motivating me and inspiring me the same way that it was in the beginning. You know, I kind of lost a little bit of that hunger, uh, just because I'd been at the, the, that level for so long and I've already, you know, competed against the, the best guys of my generation so many times. And, uh, you know, it didn't take a lot for me to, to get ready, you know. I was kind of just used to it, you know.

Joe Rogan 6:55 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 6:55 It was the same tournaments, the same season, year after year.

Joe Rogan 6:58 Same guys.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 6:58 And it was just... Yeah, same guys. Uh, it, it just stopped bringing out the fire. Now, every now and then I felt it, you know, especially when I went back to compete in Brazil. Uh, you know, the world switched to the US in, in 2007, the year that I won it, and so I, I stopped having that thing to, to push me to go to Brazil to compete. Um, and so I went back a couple of times to compete in the Brazilian Nationals and I had really good performances there. I ended up winning the absolute in 2013 in Brazil, uh, the, the all weight class division. Uh, became the first non-Brazilian to ever win a major absolute title, and I did it in Brazil. That was the day I was extremely inspired, you know. Uh, competing in Brazil brought that out of me. But, uh, I just didn't feel that way all the time, you know. Uh, just got too used to it.

Joe Rogan 7:45 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 7:45 And so I just felt like it was calling me. You know, I knew one day I was gonna do it. I had to have one fight, just as a martial artist. I had to do at least one before it was all said and done, and I really just kind of took it as a one fight basis, you know. Like, I knew I needed to do it once and, you know, uh, the time felt right, like, "Okay, let's, let's go. Let's switch back in, uh, to, you know, kind of tapping into who I was as a martial artist." The, the training that I had as a kid, as a child, um, under my father, under the, the Jeet Kune Do system. And, um, and I did one fight and I, I enjoyed it and I said, "I gotta do more and I gotta do at least one more."

Joe Rogan 8:25 So were you... The whole time you were doing jiu-jitsu, were you training in kickboxing at all? Were you doing any wrestling? Like...

Rafael Lovato Jr. 8:30 Well, always, uh, did wrestling, you know, to supplement-

Joe Rogan 8:34 As a part of your training?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 8:34 Yeah. Supplement Brazilian jiu-jitsu to the NoGi competitions-

Joe Rogan 8:37 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 8:37 ... ADCC, things like that, um, you know, and I just believed in training everything. To judo as well, um-

Joe Rogan 8:43 But, like, what about practicing ground and pound and all the other things in MMA?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 8:46 Well, whenever I was younger, uh, my father, he had some fighters, uh, that he was training and so I trained a lot with them, and then whenever I took over the academy, um, we had a couple guys that were fighting then as well. Uh, one of which went to the UFC. And so I was sparring with these guys, uh, helping them get ready and in 2008, I met who is now, uh, my main MMA coach, uh, he's my Muay Thai instructor, uh, his name is Mauricio Amado, uh, his nickname is Veio. He is brothers of Andre Dida, um, and they are both shoe box-

Joe Rogan 9:23 Is that why you were in Curitiba? You've done-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:24 Yes.

Joe Rogan 9:24 ... camps-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 9:26 ... out there?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:26 Exactly. That's where Dida lives.

Joe Rogan 9:27 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:27 His brother. And, uh, di-

Joe Rogan 9:29 Did used to fight in Pride.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:31 Uh, K1, uh, I think he did-

Joe Rogan 9:33 Oh, was it K1?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:34 Okay.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:34 K1, um, he did, uh-

Joe Rogan 9:36 Fought in Japan.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:36 Dream, I believe-

Joe Rogan 9:37 Oh, okay.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:38 He did some MMA as well. Uh, but he's more of a, of a-

Joe Rogan 9:41 Kickboxer.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:42 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:42 Striker. Um, and I, I met, uh, Mauricio and, uh, I, I really fell in love with his style of Muay Thai, and I had some guys fighting at that time.

Joe Rogan 9:55 What's the difference in his style?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 9:57 Well, it's, it's totally designed for MMA. Um, you know, it's not Muay Thai for Muay Thai, you know. Uh, they, they call their system Evolutao Thai. Uh, basically means evolution, you know.

Joe Rogan 10:10 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 10:11 And it's evolved into this system that is designed for MMA, you know. You're, you're not just training striking for striking, you're doing striking to set up take downs or defend take downs, and, um, it was just a, you know, an incredible system. Justin, whenever we fought last year, he, he got to train with Mauricio, um, and, and experience it for himself.

Joe Rogan 10:31 Something special.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 10:32 Yeah. A- and Mauricio himself is just an amazing martial artist, uh, you know, the, the passion that he has is...

Joe Rogan 10:41 You can't get him to stop.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 10:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:42 Well, you- you've trained with a lot of guys. Like, what was different for you?

Justin Wren 10:45 Man, I think the way that they, they move and see the punches coming and, and the blocks are different and the, the movement. I mean, just so much movement, movement, movement, um, and just high low, high low-

Joe Rogan 10:57 When you say blocks are different, do you, do you mean to compensate for the fact that you're using smaller gloves? Like, a different way of-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 11:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 11:04 ... of protecting yourself?

Justin Wren 11:05 How would you explain that? Just how they're moving that-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 11:07 Well- Yeah. I mean, the, the offense and defense is so intertwined, um, you know, you do everything on both sides, um, and it, it's all, you know, very powerful as well. It's, it's designed for, uh, you know, inflicting as much damage as possible.

Justin Wren 11:24 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 11:24 And for me it was so good because they can work with me as a jiu-jitsu guy much different, because they don't have to worry about someone trying to take me down, you know. I can pretty much throw whatever, whatever is possible, everything and the kitchen sink. And for the most part-

Joe Rogan 11:39 You're happy if someone takes you down.

Justin Wren 11:40 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 11:41 Yeah. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay.

Joe Rogan 11:42 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 11:42 And, and then also I have the threat that... Being able to threaten someone with a take down, which opens up a lot of striking as well. And so the, the, the way they have this system designed, you know, is just perfect for me, and Mauricio as a person is just an incredible guy that I really fell in love with, and, uh, honestly if it wasn't for him, I, I wouldn't be... I wouldn't be doing MMA. He just made me feel like I had the, the right person in place, the family, um, to, to go into MMA confidently and, and enjoy it, you know what I mean? 'Cause I... In the beginning I wasn't sure how much I was gonna... how much I was gonna like the whole process.

Justin Wren 12:16 But you've been working with him for what, 10 years?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 12:18 Yeah, we've been training together 10 years.

Justin Wren 12:19 And you've been fighting for four years.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 12:20 Yes, and so I was bringing him out to help my guys get ready that were... the guys that were fighting MMA, um, and at the same time always training with him. It wasn't my focus then, but, uh, I, I, I love to cross train, you know.

Joe Rogan 12:32 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 12:33 And just the movement, you know, I love the movement and keeping my body guessing, doing different things.

Joe Rogan 12:38 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 12:38 And, um, and so when I decided, "Okay, let's go all in on MMA," he was the obvious person to call and since then he, he basically spends half the year in Oklahoma with me and lives with me and I go to Brazil to train with Dida and his team there, um-

Joe Rogan 12:52 What, what made you decide to do that? Like, I mean, that's a big commitment to try to go all the way to Brazil for your camps.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 12:59 Well-

Joe Rogan 12:59 How many, how many camps have you done down there?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:01 Uh, n- nine.

Joe Rogan 13:03 Nine.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:03 Yeah. I've had nine fights, basically every fight.

Joe Rogan 13:05 Wow.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:05 Um, well-

Joe Rogan 13:06 How much time do you spend down there?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:08 Uh, at least two weeks. Um, sometimes a little more. There's been a couple of times a little less, but right around two weeks.

Justin Wren 13:14 This next time if you fight, uh, Gegard Mousasi, you might spend three or four weeks?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:18 Yeah.

Justin Wren 13:18 Right?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:19 I'm thinking probably a month.

Justin Wren 13:20 A month?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:21 Um, you know, i- i- it's just kind of full circle for me, you know. Like I said, I went to Brazil first time, uh, 16 years old, going to Rio to train in jiu-jitsu, compete in the World Championships.

Justin Wren 13:30 Did your dad go down there with you whenever you were 16?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:32 Actually, my dad has never gone to Brazil.

Joe Rogan 13:35 Whoa.

Justin Wren 13:35 (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:35 He, you know, he's not a flyer. He doesn't fly. Uh, he does not-

Joe Rogan 13:39 At all?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:39 ... like to fly. When he was going to California, he was driving.

Joe Rogan 13:42 What?

Justin Wren 13:42 From Oklahoma?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:43 Driving, yep. Tw- over-

Joe Rogan 13:44 That's-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:44 ... over 20 hours.

Justin Wren 13:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:46 Drove to your last fight in Boise, Idaho.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:47 Yeah.

Justin Wren 13:47 Yeah. Did, did seminars along the way.

Joe Rogan 13:48 Does he know that a flight is, like, three hours?

Justin Wren 13:50 (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:50 He knows.

Joe Rogan 13:51 Somebody tell him.

Justin Wren 13:51 (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:51 And, and he used to be in the Air Force, and that's kind of why.

Joe Rogan 13:54 Oh, okay.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:54 He had a bad experience flying.

Joe Rogan 13:55 Oh, okay.

Justin Wren 13:56 That makes sense.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 13:56 And, uh, he, he lived in Spain. He was stationed there when he was in the Air Force. Um, but y- you can get him to fly. It's a bit of work.

Joe Rogan 14:04 Mm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 14:04 Uh, it's gonna take a little bit of, uh, some drugs and maybe a, a drink or two to calm him down.

Justin Wren 14:10 (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 14:10 But, um, yeah, he, he would, uh, dr- w- I mean, we did road trips on my spring break, Christmas break from Oklahoma all the way to California to train. Um, so he's, he has not made a trip to Brazil yet, but I think it's coming soon. He's, uh, he took a long break from, from, uh, from flying, and, uh, in 2009 he had a heart attack, uh, unfortunately, but he bounced back. And since then he's kind of reformatted his life a little bit and, uh, and one of the things that he put his mind to do coming back was the, the, uh, the famous walk, uh, in Spain. Uh, God, it left my mind right now. They made a movie about it before, um, and that pushed him to, to-

Joe Rogan 14:53 Famous walk?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 14:54 Yeah. Ah, why I can't remember it right now?

Justin Wren 14:56 (clears throat)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 14:56 Um, yeah, you know, where you wa- like, you walk-

Joe Rogan 14:59 It's a hike?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:00 Yes. Yes, it's a long walk.

Joe Rogan 15:01 It's a long distance.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:01 I feel so bad that I can't remember the name. Um, yeah, it's like a six-week walk.

Justin Wren 15:07 Wow.

Joe Rogan 15:07 Whoa.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:07 Um, and, and you end at a, at a special cathedral. Uh-

Joe Rogan 15:11 There it is.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:12 Yeah, the Camino.

Joe Rogan 15:13 Spain, pilgrimage.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:13 The Camino. Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 15:14 El Camino de Santiago.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:15 Yes. Yes. Uh, and the Santiago is the cathedral. There it is, the picture there.

Joe Rogan 15:19 Mm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:19 So, he did that. Um, and so he had, of course he had to fly to Spain to do it. And so, he-

Joe Rogan 15:24 Fly to Spain to walk six week-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 15:27 That's-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:28 Yes.

Justin Wren 15:28 There's special guys-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:29 He trained for it, and, you know, and he, that was one of the major-

Joe Rogan 15:32 How do you train to walk six weeks?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:34 Uh, well, you wear in a backpack, and so-

Joe Rogan 15:36 Ah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:36 ... every day he would, um-

Joe Rogan 15:38 So he would backpack and camp out-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:39 ... for six weeks?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:39 He just back- backpacked through. They have special hostels that he would stay in on the walk. I mean, there's a lot of people that do it. Uh, you know, you're not gonna be by yourself. There's people doing it all year round.

Joe Rogan 15:49 Oh, so it's like that trail in Georgia. What is that called again?

Guest 15:51 Appalachian Trail.

Joe Rogan 15:52 Appalachian Trail? Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:53 The one that goes all the way up to Maine.

Justin Wren 15:55 Had a friend that just did that.

Joe Rogan 15:55 Six months, right?

Justin Wren 15:56 Yeah, I know. It's wild.

Joe Rogan 15:57 Six-month walk.

Justin Wren 15:58 It's wild.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:58 Yeah.

Justin Wren 15:59 (exhales)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 15:59 I'm so proud of him for doing that.

Justin Wren 16:00 But, but, for you when you're-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 16:01 And, and so he started flying again and-

Justin Wren 16:03 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 16:03 ... I think he'll be going to Brazil soon.

Justin Wren 16:04 But you and your dad, to me, are something really special. Like, you embody the heart of a true martial artist. You live it as a lifestyle. And for you even, and for him to be supporting you, you know, you coming out of the womb basically starting martial arts, and then how he's supporting you as a 16-year-old going down to Brazil.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 16:20 Yeah.

Justin Wren 16:21 And how long did you stay there whenever you were 16?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 16:23 Two weeks, little over.

Justin Wren 16:24 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 16:25 I mean, it, yeah. My, my, my parents, both my parents, uh, just have given me incredible support. My mom, I mean, my dad is a full-on martial artist. I mean, you know, uh, uh, lived, he, he follows his passion. He's a martial artist, musician. He plays the organ. Uh, just a very unique individual. Um, and, uh, you know, he opened a martial arts school, my mom giving us incredible support. And, you know, I just basically followed his footsteps. And whenever I started to commit my- myself to, you know, going all in, they've always been behind me. And, um, I mean, I, I... The, the timing of it is just very special, because he was inspired by Bruce Lee, and that's what pushed him to, you know, follow the Jeet Kune Do system. And so I got to come in in that, uh, which is a very, you know, unique, uh, style. I- when I was a child, I was training with Danny Inosanto, Richard Bustillo.

Joe Rogan 17:16 Oh, wow.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 17:16 Some of the most incredible martial artists that have ever lived.

Joe Rogan 17:19 That's very fortunate.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 17:20 And then I was at this special age of a teenager, you know, when Brazilian jiu-jitsu first started making its way to the US, and I had the support of them saying, "Yeah, you're gonna go to Brazil. You're gonna compete in the Worlds." And I got to see jiu-jitsu, you know, very early on. Uh, the first World Championships was in '96, and I competed in '99. And so I got to experience Brazilian jiu-jitsu, uh, in, in almost its roots, um, in Brazil, and see what it's become today, um, you know, worldwide, such a big sport. And now I'm also fighting MMA. So it's really cool, my, my whole martial arts journey.

Joe Rogan 17:55 Now, Shoot To Box is known for some of the roughest sparring ever. I mean, it was old school, the way they used to do it. Do they still spar like that? Because it used to be just gym wars. I mean, and the, the criticism was that a lot of these guys were... They were damaging themselves so badly in training that they were limiting their careers.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 18:16 Yeah. Uh, I, I would say they learned from that, um, a little bit. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:19 A little bit? (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 18:20 But, uh, it's, it's definitely, it's definitely hardcore.

Joe Rogan 18:23 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 18:23 Um, go- down in Curitiba. And that's one of the reasons that I, that I like it so much. It gets me out of my comfort zone, and you feel that energy every day, you know. You wake up and you kind of have to process what you're about to, to go to-

Joe Rogan 18:37 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 18:37 ... you know, in the professional training every morning. Um, but it's, it's-

Joe Rogan 18:42 How often do you spar down there?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 18:43 There's some version of sparring almost every day.

Joe Rogan 18:46 Wow.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 18:46 Basically every day. Um, but it, it's a different aspect. You might be boxing only.

Joe Rogan 18:51 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 18:51 There's a Muay Thai-only day. There's, uh, MMA sparring. There's, you know, grappling with ground and pound and wall, wall work. You know, um, it's-

Joe Rogan 19:00 It's interesting because there's so many different philosophies when it comes to how often you should spar.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:05 There is. Um, you know, and, and there are definitely days where I have to kind of speak up and say, "You know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull back just a little bit today, uh, just depending on what my body feels." Uh, I try to listen to that as much as possible. Um-

Guest 19:19 Aren't you sparring partners with, like, Wanderlei down there still sometimes?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:22 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:22 Fuck all that. (laughs)

Guest 19:25 (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:25 (laughs) Yeah, actually this-

Joe Rogan 19:26 I'll talk to people about that and they're like, "You don't spar Wanderlei, you just fight him."

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:30 Right. Uh, this scar right here, uh, is happened in Curitiba sparring with Wanderlei.

Joe Rogan 19:35 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:35 Um, you know, y- you get com- more comfortable with it. And the guys are awesome. I mean, the, they are definitely my MMA family down there.

Joe Rogan 19:43 That's just the way they do it.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:45 It's not a, it's not a personal thing.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:46 No.

Joe Rogan 19:46 It's not like they're trying to hurt you.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:48 No, not at all.

Joe Rogan 19:48 They try to hurt each other.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 19:49 They, they sing and dance and, you know, hug and, you know, I mean, afterwards everyone's so happy. You make it through it and you celebrate it, you know.

Joe Rogan 19:56 There's a crazy story I heard was, um, Shogun and Wanderlei were arguing over the price of a pit bull puppy, and so they decided to fight.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:06 And if Wanderlei won then he would get the puppy for free and if Shogun won then Wande would have to pay him what he wanted. And Wanderlei knocked Shogun out in training.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:17 Oh my gosh.

Joe Rogan 20:17 And was laughing when he woke him up holding the puppy.

Guest 20:20 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:20 Wow.

Joe Rogan 20:21 I'm like, "What the fuck?"

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:22 And they're really good friends.

Guest 20:23 Yep.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:23 Yeah. It's a little different.

Guest 20:25 Wow.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:26 Yeah, somebody needs to talk to them about traumatic brain injuries.

Guest 20:28 Right. (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:29 Yeah, I think one of the things that they, the, the worst things they were doing though, they were sparring full on, like, day, like two days, a day-

Joe Rogan 20:37 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:37 ... before the fight.

Joe Rogan 20:38 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:38 That was too much.

Guest 20:39 Or as DC always says, sometimes they were sparring right the day before, day of weigh-ins they're sparring.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:43 Right. Yeah.

Guest 20:43 So, that's-

Joe Rogan 20:44 Yeah, that's fucking crazy.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:44 There's some really funny, cool stories-

Guest 20:46 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:47 ... that they have.

Joe Rogan 20:48 Well, I guess you get used to it, so there's that, but you also, you leave a lot of your chin in, in the gym.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:56 I mean, there's just only so much punishment a body can take.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 20:59 Yeah, don't, don't take it wrong, I mean, it- it's controlled.

Joe Rogan 21:03 Now.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 21:03 But... Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:04 More so.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 21:04 But I would say it's still more hardcore than the average place, for sure.

Joe Rogan 21:09 It's, I mean, that's, the- it is so open in, in terms of how people decide to structure their camps. Some people have very little sparring, like Cowboy was telling me he, he hardly spars at all. I mean, he does just technical work and pad work. He's like, "I already know how to fight, there's no need for me to get in shape."

Rafael Lovato Jr. 21:26 He used to be completely opposite though, right?

Joe Rogan 21:28 Yeah.

Guest 21:28 Yep.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 21:28 He used to spar, spar, spar, spar and now he's switched it up.

Joe Rogan 21:30 Yeah, but that's when he started doing much better, he said.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 21:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:33 He said it really made a big difference because he was going into fights damaged because, you know, he's such a... He's so hardcore himself that sparring with him ultimately must become more hardcore 'cause he's- he's such a fucking wild man, so...

Guest 21:46 Robbie Lawler did something similar as well.

Joe Rogan 21:48 Same thing, but Robbie-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 21:49 I think Tony Ferguson was just doing the first time as well.

Guest 21:50 Yeah, Tony Ferguson was doing it, no sparring. Yep.

Joe Rogan 21:53 Tony had no, no sparring in preparation for his last fight?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 21:56 That's, that's what I saw in the, in the post-fight interview.

Joe Rogan 21:58 What makes sense about that with him though is that he was coming off of a catastrophic knee injury.

Guest 22:03 Injure. Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 22:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:03 I mean, he literally tore his ligament off the bone and had to have it put back on and then six months later he was fighting.

Guest 22:11 That's incredible.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 22:12 Yeah, his mind blowing.

Joe Rogan 22:12 There's not a whole lot of human beings like that guy.

Guest 22:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:14 He's a real freak.

Guest 22:15 That level of grit, determination to come back from that injury.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 22:18 Oh, yeah.

Guest 22:18 And to perform like he did with Anthony Pettis.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 22:21 Yeah, amazing.

Guest 22:21 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:21 Oh my gosh.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 22:21 That was my favorite fight of the night.

Joe Rogan 22:22 Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

Guest 22:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:24 I was bummed out that Pettis hurt his hand.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 22:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:26 'Cause he had his moments too.

Guest 22:27 He does not stop going forward for Ferguson.

Joe Rogan 22:28 No, he doesn't, man. He never gets tired. That's the crazy thing about Tony, you know, and Eddie Bravo does his camps with him up in Big Bear and he says, "It's nuts, man." Every... They do hill sprints, everybody else is exhausted and, and Tony's just lapping them.

Guest 22:40 (laughs) Wow.

Joe Rogan 22:40 Just running back up. I mean, he's just never out of gas.

Guest 22:44 Wild man.

Joe Rogan 22:44 He, he'll work out six hours hard a day and on top of that what he does is he gets there, they rent a house, and then he builds his own gym. So they'll have, like, a house that they rent, he'll mat up the living room and then he'll go outside, he'll put up a Wing Chun dummy, he'll hang heavy bags.

Guest 23:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:03 He does it all himself.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 23:04 I used to do the Wing Chun dummy too.

Joe Rogan 23:05 Yeah, man. I mean, he, he actually used Wing Chun in the fight with Pettis. He trapped his hand and hit him with an elbow once and I, I remember watching it going like, "Holy shit, he just used Wing Chun inside the cage." Like, it works. Like if you really know your shit, he trapped his hand and then came right over the top with an elbow and I went, "Look at that shit." 'Cause he's always practicing it.

Guest 23:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:27 You know, he's always practicing kung fu, but he's a very, very unusual guy. Like there's all this talk about a Conor rematch 'cause financially that would be a fantastic fight, right? Financially. But when you look at what happened, that was a dominant victory.

Guest 23:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:40 I mean, there was one round where Conor did pretty good, the third round. Other than that, Khabib just sort of dominated him.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 23:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:47 I mean, dropped him in the second, beat the fucking shit out of him in the fourth and the third was a round where Conor did pretty good 'cause most of it was standing up.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 23:54 I think he won that round, right? Was that the first round Khabib ever lost?

Joe Rogan 23:58 Yeah. Yeah, I think that was. Yeah. But I mean, it wasn't he won it, like, running away.

Guest 24:02 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:02 It wasn't like that he blasted him in the body, had him hurt and, you know, there was nothing like that.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 24:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:06 It was just he edged him. It's hard to make... I mean, I guess you could say that's the same thing that sort of happened in the Nate Diaz fight and then Conor came back and won the rematch, so this is the argument. The argument is Conor was rusty, he's out of the cage for two years, he gets back in, let's do a re-... And then financially, Jesus Christ, I mean, it was the biggest fight of all time. They're saying it was above 2.4 million pay-per-view buys.

Guest 24:29 Wow.

Joe Rogan 24:30 Which is fucking bananas.

Guest 24:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:31 That's, that's huge. So if it's bigger than that and then they ha-... If they can talk people into a rematch, I get it, but I don't want to see that. I want to see Tony.

Guest 24:41 Tony. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:41 I want to see Tony and Khabib.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 24:43 Tony earned it.

Joe Rogan 24:43 Yeah. And-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 24:43 He's more than earned it.

Joe Rogan 24:44 And the-

Guest 24:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:44 ... Khabib, the, the suspension, let him give a little money to somebody, come on.

Guest 24:49 (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 24:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:50 What's the re-... The... My, my take on it, like-

Guest 24:53 Putting it there for him.

Joe Rogan 24:53 ... would ke- you know, this, the, the whole thing is fucked. It's not professional.

Guest 24:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:58 It shouldn't happen, but neither should people be fucking screaming shit at him while he's fighting.

Guest 25:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:04 You know, and, and I guess that was going on the entire time. He was apparently having, like Dillon Danis was in, in Conor's corner was screaming shit at Khabib while the fight was going on-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:14 ... which I guess gets annoying.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:15 Yeah.... you see the new angle? I, uh, there's a new angle of video where Khabib's Russian manager, um, as, as Conor is tapping-

Joe Rogan 25:25 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:25 ... he comes right behind Danis and slaps him on the back-

Joe Rogan 25:28 Yes. Yes.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:28 ... like three or four times.

Joe Rogan 25:29 I did see that. Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:31 Right. Kinda instigating something a little bit.

Joe Rogan 25:32 Yeah. There's that, and then someone said Khabib, uh, that Conor swung first, which is true, but Khabib had already gone over the cage.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:40 And someone's coming back at him.

Joe Rogan 25:40 And then the guy was coming at him-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:41 ... and Conor swung at him, but I think it was already chaos-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:45 ... at that point.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:46 You know, it's all very unfortunate, but what happened really? Not, no one got hurt.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:53 You know? I mean, Conor got hurt-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:55 What, what was your-

Joe Rogan 25:55 ... more than anybody.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 25:56 ... point of view down there? I mean, did you, did you feel at all like, "Oh, man. This ride's coming towards me." Or anything like that?

Joe Rogan 26:01 (sighs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:01 Did it spread around?

Joe Rogan 26:03 I am so-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:04 Through the audience or-

Joe Rogan 26:04 ... fucking numb. I'm so used to people-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:06 ... beating the shit out of each other. It's like, "Oh, now they're beating the shit out of each other over here." Hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:10 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:10 It's just like... (laughs) It didn't, it didn't feel-

Justin Wren 26:14 (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:14 So-

Joe Rogan 26:14 It didn't feel any more dangerous. I was hoping that chairs wouldn't start flying-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:17 ... and then it wouldn't get too crazy. And I was really, really, really hoping that someone wouldn't do something stupid and hurt someone to the point where they would get kicked out of the UFC or suspended. But that might be the case with that one gentleman. What is his name? Zuba? What is his name? My fucking... I should, I should check my Instagram 'cause it's, it's filled with "Free Zuba."

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:38 I don't know how to say-

Justin Wren 26:38 Oh, that's what that gentleman's name is.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:39 I think I just saw that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:41 Yeah.

Justin Wren 26:41 Khabib's, like, uh, training partner.

Joe Rogan 26:43 Yeah, I mean-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 26:43 That's the guy that got fired?

Justin Wren 26:45 Yeah. Or, that they're talking about it.

Joe Rogan 26:45 I don't know if he got fired.

Justin Wren 26:47 His, his fight with, uh, Artem-

Joe Rogan 26:48 But it was, it was supposed to be with Artem and not a bad idea to cancel that fight-

Justin Wren 26:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:54 ... because it's so close to this and obviously it's gonna be so, so charged up. Let me find homeboy's name.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:01 Yeah, they just moved Artem in to fight Michael Johnson, I think.

Joe Rogan 27:04 Ooh.

Justin Wren 27:04 Hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:05 That'll be a good fight.

Justin Wren 27:06 Yeah, it'll be a real good fight.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:08 Um-

Guest 27:09 Zubaria?

Joe Rogan 27:10 Yes, Zubaria. They call him... Yeah. See, Save Zuba. This shit's all over my Instagram.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:16 You crazy Russians. I see what you're doing. It's like all my mentions.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:20 Zubaria, uh, kh- I, I can't pronounce his last name. T-U-K-H-U-G-O-V. Good luck.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:29 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:30 Good luck with that one. (laughs)

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:32 John Enik-

Joe Rogan 27:32 I hope you can pronounce it. He pronounces it flawlessly. Zubaria's a very good fighter too.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:36 It's very unfortunate. I hope they can work everything out. He was supporting his brother. He felt like there was a fight going on. He was showing his loyalty. I get it. There should've been more security. They should've been better. They should've talked to these guys beforehand. They should've stopped all this fucking nonsense beforehand.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 27:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:56 It's, it's bad for the sport. It's bad for the image. It's bad for them. It's, it's just, you know, there's no- nothing good about it. But to Khabib's point, there's nothing good about Conor throwing that dolly at the bus.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:09 That was worse.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:10 That was worse.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:11 I mean, someone should've-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:12 For sure.

Joe Rogan 28:12 ... got really fucked up. Fights got canceled-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:14 Some people did, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:14 ... 'cause people got cut.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:16 Yeah, I mean, um, you know, I mean Chiesa got pulled from his fight. He had a big cut on his head.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:22 He's still dealing with, um, injuries I think from that.

Joe Rogan 28:25 Really?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:26 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I saw him at one of the Bellators, um, in, uh, Chicago, uh, there. And he was like, "Man, I still, uh, dealing with, like, flash concussions." Or something like that and I don't know. It was, it was really serious for him, for him. I think he took the worst of it.

Joe Rogan 28:43 How did he get king- a concussion from it?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:46 Don't quote me 100%. Or I, I know he had glass in his eye and-

Joe Rogan 28:50 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:50 ... I just know that he was still dealing with-

Justin Wren 28:53 Residual effects?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 28:54 Yeah, residual effects.

Justin Wren 28:55 For me, I'm torn because I, I was at a conference. It was called, like, The Summit of Greatness, and we had a bunch of people that came over. There was, like, 13 different people that came over to our Airbnb. Had a blast. Um, there were some incredible people there. Um, there's a guy that, that I think you need to know of. His name's Nic Santonastasso, and he's a guy that, uh, that is incredibly inspirational to me. I've gotten to know him, uh, and he's got only one arm, no legs, uh, he's got one finger on one hand, but he, the way that he's overcome adversity in his life, incredible dude. Um, he first started with skateboarding with one arm and doing handstands on the skateboard.

Joe Rogan 29:33 Wow.

Justin Wren 29:33 After that, he started doing, uh, um, bowling. And then from there, he, he had a little bit of an arm on, on his, uh, left arm. Sorry, yeah, his right arm. And he wanted to wrestle, but his parents said that he had this, uh, his bone was growing faster than his skin. And so on, on one of his arms it has, like, a, uh, a problem with it. And so he wanted to wrestle, but they said if he landed on that part of his arm that the bone would stick through.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 30:01 Hmm.

Justin Wren 30:01 It would stick through and, like, stab into the mat and that there's no way he could wrestle. And he looked at his mom and dad and he thought about it for months and he said, "Mom and Dad, what if we just cut it off?"

Joe Rogan 30:12 Oh, Jesus.

Justin Wren 30:13 And they're like, "What?" And Nic says, "What if you just cut off my arm? Can, can I wrestle then? You know, my other arm's good."

Joe Rogan 30:19 Wow.

Justin Wren 30:19 And, uh, they said, "Nic, you're being pretty extreme here. Let's not call it cutting it off. Let's call it amputation and, uh, and no, you can't do that." Well, he just kept pushing the issue. There he is right there. And his Instagram is-

Joe Rogan 30:31 So he wound up getting it cut off?

Justin Wren 30:33 Yep. So right there, it used to be five or six inches longer than that.

Joe Rogan 30:36 Oh, my God.

Justin Wren 30:36 And he went and got it lasered off. And what he says is that he wants, uh... So yeah, buddies with The Rock. Um, he's a bodybuilder too. He, he just wrote a book. It's available on Amazon.

Joe Rogan 30:47 Holy shit.

Justin Wren 30:47 Um, I think it's called like-

Joe Rogan 30:48 Holy shit.

Justin Wren 30:48 ... From Victim to Victor. Yeah, I mean that, that tire flip on his Instagram, it's wild if, if, if you wanna pull that up. But it's, um, he's a really inspirational guy to me. And, uh, he, like, literally, so, uh, on that top left picture, um, he calls that on his other arm, he calls that his potato. That's what he calls it. Um, but he had to have five or six inches cut off so that he could wrestle.

Joe Rogan 31:13 (laughs)

Justin Wren 31:13 Um, and, uh-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 31:13 Wow.

Justin Wren 31:13 ... really inspirational guy to me. He's been on, like, Ed Mylett's podcast and Lewis Howes and, um, his stories there are incredibly inspirational. Um-

Joe Rogan 31:21 I thought the Neal Melanson story was crazy.

Justin Wren 31:24 What's that?

Joe Rogan 31:24 You know Neal Melanson?

Justin Wren 31:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:25 The... He, uh, he broke his toe real bad.

Justin Wren 31:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:29 And, uh, they were saying he couldn't roll for six months. He had to put in a splint. He said-... how about you just cut it off? (laughs)

Justin Wren 31:35 Wow.

Joe Rogan 31:35 And they said, "Okay." (laughs)

Justin Wren 31:37 So they did it.

Joe Rogan 31:38 You know what? (laughs) You've seen Neal Mullane-

Justin Wren 31:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:40 ... so he has a giant gorilla-

Justin Wren 31:41 Oh, for sure. I had no idea he did that, though.

Joe Rogan 31:42 Like, if he says-

Justin Wren 31:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:42 ... "Cut my toe off," you just go, "Okay."

Justin Wren 31:44 Okay.

Joe Rogan 31:44 "Okay," you go. (laughs) "We'll just cut your toe off then."

Rafael Lovato Jr. 31:46 Yeah, I got a train tomorrow.

Justin Wren 31:47 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:47 Don't kill me. (laughs)

Justin Wren 31:49 So, so he-

Joe Rogan 31:49 And he fucking had his toe cut off so he could keep training. (laughs)

Justin Wren 31:51 Wow. So-

Joe Rogan 31:52 Woo!

Justin Wren 31:52 ... Nick and him, they've got some screws loose, but they're committed.

Joe Rogan 31:54 Yeah.

Justin Wren 31:54 You know, like, how committed are you that you wanna achieve this-

Joe Rogan 31:56 That's pretty committed.

Justin Wren 31:57 ... this goal, this dream? He... His dream, he grew up in New Jersey, he's like, "I want to be a wrestler."

Joe Rogan 32:02 Wow.

Justin Wren 32:02 "And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this." Um, incredibly inspirational guy. So him and 12 other guys came over to our Airbnb and we watched the fights, and it was Conor versus Khabib. And we loved watching everything that night. And then whenever that happened, um, so I'm torn on it because I love those guys as fighters.

Joe Rogan 32:19 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 32:20 I absolutely love them as fighters. Um, and then whenever that happened, it was just something that, in me, I don't, I don't know if I was embarrassed or if I was disappointed, but th- they were introducing some guys, uh, Steve Weatherford who played for the New York Giants. Um, he came over for like, uh... He played for the Giants for, like, 10 or 12 years, um, lives in San Diego, great guy, but he's not a big MMA fan. So I was explaining everything to him, and when that happened, it was just pretty disappointing.

Joe Rogan 32:43 Yeah.

Justin Wren 32:43 Then I spoke at, um, (clicks tongue) at a anti-bullying coalition in Tulsa and I went there and there was this girl there that, uh, she looked real sweet, real quiet, introverted, um, and she worked with mental health. And her name was Allie. All of a sudden, she found out I was a MMA fighter and she said, "Oh my gosh, you know, my husband's a huge MMA fan. I'm not at all. I never really even sat down and watched it with him." But then he decided to take me to the T-Mobile Arena for the... So, her first fight was Conor-Khabib and, uh, she was in there and she said she loved it before that. Uh, Michelle Waterson was an incredible inspiration to her, her saying that she wants to be the first mom to be a UFC champion. She said, uh, the night was going great, and then whenever that happened, she said it wa- it literally scared her because fights started popping off to the right of her-

Joe Rogan 33:31 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 33:31 ... left of her, behind her.

Joe Rogan 33:33 Yeah.

Justin Wren 33:33 She said it poured out into the arena. Um, and so that was her first introduction to MMA. So that was a little tough to see, but at the same time, I get it, like, those emotions are flaring. And you were talking about it too and, uh, kind of your perspective of martial artists and...

Rafael Lovato Jr. 33:48 Yeah, I mean, same thing that, that you were feeling just, you know, that little bit of, kind of, sadness and disappointment of, you know, the, the biggest event, the most views, the most people watching, and that's the last thing that they see. That's what they, (clicks tongue) you know, uh, go to bed thinking about and feeling about. And, and I just, you know, I- I don't think, uh, even Ke- even Conor and Khabib, that's not who they are as martial artists, you know?

Joe Rogan 34:13 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 34:13 Uh, sure, all the emotions were flying and they, you know, um, they have this- a history and, and it's hard to let that go, but I- I- I just don't, I don't feel like that's even who they really are you see in all their other fights. Uh, they, they respect their opponents, you know, she can-

Joe Rogan 34:30 Uh, I'm gonna disagree with you. Um, I mean, look, Conor's... that's what he does.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 34:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:36 He talks shit to people and fucks with their head. I mean, it's, it's a giant part of his game, and I know that that was part of the strategy of him throwing that dolly at the bus. That shit's way out of line.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 34:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:48 I mean, throwing a dolly at the bus, that's not what a martial artist does when you- when you... If you stop and think about what we value about martial arts in terms of teaching children honor, re- respect, and discipline, and the, the things... when we think of a, a classical martial artist like Lyoto Machida or someone like that, bowing to their opponent.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 35:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:09 That, that is not... This is, this is theatrics.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 35:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:12 This is hype. But in all fairness, the UFC used that to sell that fight. I mean, that was a big part of their-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 35:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:18 ... promotional campaign was seeing Conor throw the dolly at the bus and the screaming and the yelling. You know, you're setting, you- you're setting an exa- there's something going on outside of the actual contest itself. There's all this extra-cour- curricular violence, right? There's throwing a dolly at a bus, shattering in the window, all these guys running and screaming, "Get off the bus," and then they're promoting this. They're showing this. And then everyone's shocked-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 35:44 Then-

Joe Rogan 35:45 ... that it escalates after the fight itself? You know, one of the... in, in some ways, one of the more interesting moments of the fight was Khabib on top of Conor beating the shit out of him going, "Let's talk now." Have you seen that video?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 35:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:59 That's fucking terrifying.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:00 Yeah, it is.

Joe Rogan 36:00 It's like, "Come on, let's talk." Bam! And he's just slamming him.

Justin Wren 36:03 And-

Joe Rogan 36:03 Bam!

Justin Wren 36:03 ... he told him-

Joe Rogan 36:04 "Let's talk now."

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:04 ... he was gonna do that before the fight too.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Yeah.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:06 "Yeah, we're gonna talk. We're gonna talk."

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:07 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:08 "When I'm on top of you and you're tired and I'm beating the fuck out of you, that's when we're gonna talk," and that's what he did. You know, this is all not what Khabib does.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:16 This is outside-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:17 ... of his, uh... his... if you look at his standard behavior, he's very respectful. I mean, he's never had an oth- incident like this ever in a fight. All of his fights before that are him shaking his opponent's hand, doing the standard stare-down, standard stuff, talking about his skill set and what he's gonna do, and there's no disrespect. There's no insults.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:39 There's none of this.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:40 That's what I mean about Khabib.

Joe Rogan 36:41 Yeah, but not Conor.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 36:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:43 I mean, this is, uh... but, but here's the other thing, on the other side, it makes it fun. It... I'm very torn because all the shit that he talked to Jose Aldo, look, that was a big factor in Jose Aldo charging at him, losing his composure, face first, and getting clipped with that left hand. That's a big factor-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 37:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:01 ... is the emotional angst that he had gone through for months and months on the road-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 37:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:05 ... with this guy.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 37:06 The mental warfare.

Joe Rogan 37:07 Yeah. I mean, that mental warfare is a real thing. It just didn't work with Khabib.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 37:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:11 It had the opposite effect. It... With Khabib, he- he's like, "I can't wait to get my fucking hands on you." It wasn't, "I can't believe this guy's saying these things to me." With Khabib, it... But it ramped up the violence to the point where he was letting you know, like, "Hey, this is real to me. Like, if you, if you wanna act thuggish and you..." but we'll just keep going. We'll just... I'll t- I'll keep taking this... Like, he didn't want to stop after Conor had tapped. Like, he was holding onto him and he's letting him know, "Hey, motherfucker," like, "this is real. This is not just shit talking." Conor was saying to him, "This, it's just business, it's just business," and he's like, "Let's talk now. Let's talk now." Like, he- he's like, "This is not business to him."

Rafael Lovato Jr. 37:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:50 So to him-... fights, I mean, this is what he, he said in the press conference. It should be, this is a respect sport and this should, this sport should be about two men expressing themselves to the best of their physical ability inside the cage. Just doing their best against the best fighters in the world, and that should speak for itself, and that they should have respect and honor outside of it.

Justin Wren 38:14 I wish he would've had the chance to say that. You know?

Joe Rogan 38:16 Yeah, we didn't have a chance.

Justin Wren 38:16 That was the sad, the sad part was him letting the emotions take over, what he felt-

Joe Rogan 38:21 Yeah.

Justin Wren 38:22 ... and, and instead of just getting the belt tied on and kind of killing them with kindness at the end and saying that, and having that chance to put that in everyone's minds and, and ears.

Joe Rogan 38:31 Well, he, he did in the post-fight interview, but, I mean, how many... Or the post-fight, uh, press conference. But how many people got a chance to see that?

Justin Wren 38:37 Right. A lot less. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:38 I mean, just a few thousand, I'm sure. And as in comparison to the 2.4 million that downloaded the pay-per-view and the many, many, many, many more that saw the YouTube clips-

Justin Wren 38:47 The next day-

Joe Rogan 38:48 ... and Instagrams clips-

Justin Wren 38:49 ... all over ESPN.

Joe Rogan 38:49 And yeah, I mean, everybody saw it. It's, it's unfortunate, but it's also a financial windfall. Like it's, the whole thing, it's weird because-

Justin Wren 38:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:59 ... part of what makes Conor so interesting is that he's so good at talking shit, he's hilarious, and he knows how to back it up. But when we saw him fight Khabib, he just, he fell short. It's really that simple. When skill versus skill, he fell short. And the, the, the shit talking led to Khabib being very, taking it very personal, and very personal at the end. And then pointing at Dillon Danis and jumping off the, the top of the cage. The whole thing was just, it's so fucking crazy. But the idea that people should be surprised after Conor throws a dolly at the bus, and then still winds up able to fight. I mean, just, what did he do? Paid some money? Did some... I mean-

Justin Wren 39:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 39:45 ... he gotta do some, some service. What is it? Is it community service? I don't even know what he has to do.

Justin Wren 39:49 I don't either.

Joe Rogan 39:50 Do something.

Justin Wren 39:51 Yeah, that's where it's not...

Joe Rogan 39:51 Yeah, it's kinda crazy.

Justin Wren 39:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:53 I mean, throwing a dolly is fucking way worse than punching a guy who punches people for a living. Which is, Dillon Danis is a professional fighter. He's a professional fighter. He jumps out, he takes a swing at him, they're screaming, and Dillon's like, "Fuck you." And he's like, "Fuck you." And there's a bunch of people get involved, and then a bunch of other people jump in. The whole thing was nuts. But the idea that we should be shocked after him throwing a dolly at a bus because Khabib's on the bus. That sh- those Russians don't fucking play like that, man.

Justin Wren 40:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:22 That's shit... (clicks tongue) Those Russians don't fucking play like that man.

Justin Wren 40:22 Yeah. Yeah. This is-

Joe Rogan 40:22 This is...

Justin Wren 40:22 You see the videos afterwards when Dagestan, where they're shooting off UZIs and AK47s?

Joe Rogan 40:27 Dude! Yeah.

Justin Wren 40:27 So I wrestled there, uh, when I was like 18. Um, wrestled there, and it was crazy. They were taking us around everywhere in G Wagons and the ones in front of us had like armed, uh, I don't know, machine guns on top of them. The one behind us, armed with machine guns on top of them.

Joe Rogan 40:40 Oh. (laughs)

Justin Wren 40:41 Um, and then what was it? We were, we were walking through one of the streets, and there's these big chains that are in between the road and the sidewalk. And we're walking down the sidewalk and all of a sudden there's like a laser that comes over and, uh, and our guys are like, "We gotta go, we gotta go." All of a sudden a car came up onto the sidewalk, started driving like they were going to plow us down. We had to jump into the road-

Joe Rogan 41:02 Whoa.

Justin Wren 41:02 ... to not get hit. And, uh, I don't know why that happened, but after that we weren't allowed... Our, uh, the hotel we were in, we had like balconies to where we could look out. Well, they had to move our rooms to where we were inside to where we couldn't have a balcony and everything else, to where the, just because of that threat. Because of the laser that came. Because of the truck that came up onto the sidewalk and tried to run us over. Um-

Joe Rogan 41:25 There was some crazy rumor that someone got arrested outside of the, uh, T-Mobile Arena. See if that's true. If someone got arrested with a gun outside the T-Mobile Arena on, after the fight or during the fight. 'Cause there was, there was some sort of crazy talk about threats. The problem is you don't know how much of that's bullshit.

Justin Wren 41:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 41:45 You know? I mean, I probably should've researched that before we talked about it, but... You see anything? Bullshit? I don't, do they, they post that? No, no, no.

Justin Wren 41:56 I heard the same thing, though.

Joe Rogan 41:57 You heard it too?

Justin Wren 41:57 I heard it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:58 Yeah. Yeah, I think I heard it on, uh, Instagram.

Justin Wren 42:01 But yeah, they don't play around. They're honor-

Joe Rogan 42:03 Bro, the Russians-

Justin Wren 42:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:03 ... it's a different world, man.

Justin Wren 42:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:05 Especially Dagestan. That's a hard part of the country.

Justin Wren 42:08 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:08 Not that Dublin isn't hard, but it's like that, they're not known for their, uh, humor and shit talking.

Justin Wren 42:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:17 (laughs)

Justin Wren 42:17 Yeah, well, I, I... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:18 (laughs)

Justin Wren 42:19 Well, I, I, I went into a store (laughs) . I went into a store, like a little market, uh, and I was whistling in Dagestan. And I didn't know that that was something disrespectful. But someone came right up behind me and just slapped me on the back of the head. Like an older man.

Joe Rogan 42:31 Oh, (laughs) .

Justin Wren 42:31 Like an older man. Probably like Khabib's dad came up. And I knew that he was a bad dude, so I wasn't gonna do anything. I just didn't know. Translator had to come up and say, "You don't whistle in public." You know?

Joe Rogan 42:39 Like, "Oh, you're having a good day?"

Justin Wren 42:40 "Shh."

Joe Rogan 42:42 (laughs)

Justin Wren 42:42 "Don't whistle."

Joe Rogan 42:42 Whistling is disrespectful? Whoa.

Justin Wren 42:44 And I can't even whistle that good. But, uh, but I was just kinda whistling to myself. I didn't even know I was doing anything but air guitar.

Joe Rogan 42:48 What do they think about air guitar? (laughs)

Justin Wren 42:50 Yeah, that's probably bad. That's probably bad. They don't show the bottom of your feet.

Joe Rogan 42:53 What?

Justin Wren 42:53 Uh, like if you, uh, that's for sure. You can Google that. But if you are sitting there and you like cross your legs and you show the bottom of your foot, that's culturally really disrespectful to show, um, the... Yeah, bottoms of your shoes or the bottom of your feet. So they just don't play around there. Um, and then...

Joe Rogan 43:09 So the bot-... So if you have like your foot on top of your thigh like this?

Justin Wren 43:13 Yep.

Joe Rogan 43:13 Like sitting like this?

Justin Wren 43:14 Don't do that.

Joe Rogan 43:15 You can't do that?

Justin Wren 43:15 Don't do that. Someone will come and slap your leg and make sure-

Joe Rogan 43:18 Really?

Justin Wren 43:18 ... your feet are both on the ground. So just a lot of cultural stuff-

Joe Rogan 43:21 It's a hard part of the world, man.

Justin Wren 43:22 It is.

Joe Rogan 43:22 It's a hard part of the world.

Justin Wren 43:23 That's why they're so tough. They're always climbing up those mountains.

Joe Rogan 43:25 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 43:25 Uh, I mean, it's just jagged mountains. I remember it was one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. Um, just stunning. But just the, the hard life. Did you see that Nike or, sorry, not Nike, but Reebok video that Khabib did? Uh.

Joe Rogan 43:37 Yes.

Justin Wren 43:38 It was, it was awesome.

Joe Rogan 43:39 Yeah.

Justin Wren 43:39 It was awesome.

Joe Rogan 43:40 It was awesome. Yeah.

Justin Wren 43:40 But just seeing that, that's, that's the real life there. It's, uh, hard-

Joe Rogan 43:42 There's a photo of him that he posted, uh, on his Instagram with his father. Him and his father, uh, standing right after the fight he did it, like to explain like that this, this-... what, what this is about to him is honor. It's not about money, it's about honor and respect. And it's a photo of him standing with his father with this incredible mountain range behind them.

Justin Wren 44:02 Wow.

Joe Rogan 44:03 Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a different part of the world. So that, that strategy with Conor backfired.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 44:10 Do you think there's a point where, uh-

Justin Wren 44:12 There it is.

Joe Rogan 44:13 You know, the-

Justin Wren 44:13 Look how gorgeous that is.

Guest 44:14 Yeah.

44:14 Just stunning.

Joe Rogan 44:15 That's incredible. What a photo.

Guest 44:17 Mm-hmm.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 44:18 That they should say, "Hey, let's, let's turn the talking down a little bit," you know?

Joe Rogan 44:22 How can you? That's what, that's what got Conor to the dance. I mean, it's one of the reasons why he's-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 44:27 But it has escalated, right?

Justin Wren 44:28 It has.

Joe Rogan 44:28 It has.

Justin Wren 44:28 Since Aldo-

Joe Rogan 44:30 Yeah.

Justin Wren 44:30 ... to then Mayweather bringing in his dad and the-

Joe Rogan 44:32 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Justin Wren 44:33 ... assaults and different stuff like that. And then Khabib going after his-

Joe Rogan 44:36 Well, you can't-

Justin Wren 44:36 ... family religion, everything else.

Joe Rogan 44:38 Right, yes, yeah. Yeah.

Justin Wren 44:39 So it's gotten, it's almost like he has to... I think you were saying this, but-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 44:42 Yeah, he's got to one-up himself-

Justin Wren 44:43 ... how to perform, right.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 44:43 ... for, you know... And for me, it just kind of felt like, you know, it wasn't a surprise. It was kind of like the karma for the UFC promoting the bus and-

Joe Rogan 44:51 Right.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 44:52 ... you know, and letting it just keep getting deeper and deeper. You know?

Justin Wren 44:56 But they say it's the story, and it is the story-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 44:59 Right.

Justin Wren 44:59 ... but at a certain point, if it's something that was illegal or hurt somebody, maybe don't use that for promotion.

Joe Rogan 45:03 I was honestly shocked that they were using it in promotion. I was like, "Well, I shouldn't be shocked." I thought that when I saw the promo and I saw the, the, the dolly flying at the bus and then the video from the inside with the glass shattering, I was like, "Okay, I guess I shouldn't be shocked because it did happen, you know, it is a part of the story." But I mean, is this, is this encouraging this? Like what is... I mean, they're using it-

Rafael Lovato Jr. 45:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:24 ... to sell the biggest fight in the history of the sport, turned out to be true.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 45:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:28 It is the biggest fight in the history of the sport. Is that good?

Rafael Lovato Jr. 45:33 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:33 That doesn't seem good.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 45:35 No.

Justin Wren 45:35 No.

Joe Rogan 45:35 It seems, it seems, I don't know, man.

Justin Wren 45:37 Not from my perspective.

Joe Rogan 45:38 But it's, you know, it's entertainment versus sport, right? Wh- when it comes to sport, like you'd never use that to, to advertise the Olympics.

Justin Wren 45:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:50 Right? They would never have an assault to advertise the Olympics. But this is something different. It's commerce. There's a lot of money involved. It's a, it's a huge cultural spectacle. It's Conor McGregor, who's... He transcends sport. He's this superstar in just the world of just show business, so it's different.

Justin Wren 46:12 It's different, but at the same time, what... This might be more for the purist or hardcore MMA fan or, or martial artist that competes, but-

Joe Rogan 46:18 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 46:19 ... but what, what originally drew you to the martial arts? I mean, I haven't heard that firsthand from you, but, but what drew you to the sport initially?

Joe Rogan 46:27 Well, I mean, (sighs) like Raphael, I found out about Bruce Lee when I was a kid. I mean, Bruce Lee was the first. I saw those Bruce Lee movies, I lived in New Jersey in an apartment complex and my, uh, my superintendent of the apartment complex, his son was my age. And I went over to his house, we watched a Bruce Lee movie and I was like, "Holy shit, look at this." And they had, he, the kid had nunchuks and shit and I whacked myself in the back of the head-

Justin Wren 46:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:50 ... trying to practice nunchuks. But I remember watching that guy throw kicks and, you know, jumping off of tables and beating the fuck out of all these dudes who were coming out, like, "Ba, ya?" And every kid wanted to be Bruce Lee. Every kid wanted to be Bruce Lee. And, um, then I, I took kung fu class, and then I took karate, and then I got into TaeKwonDo, and then I got into Muay Thai and all these other different things. But to me, it was just, martial arts was, um, you know, it was, it was a way to learn how to fight, first of all, for sure. But then it was also a way to test yourself. But it was always, there was no shit-talking back then in martial arts tournaments. There was no, there was no trash-talking. Even if, you know, there was like little subtle things that people would say to each other at the weigh-in, under each other's breath, like, "I'm gonna fuck you up," or something like that. It was very quiet. And it was very little of that. Most of it was, uh, bowing, you know, shaking hands, and then there was just the fight. But there was also no money involved, it was just fighting, you know? And I think that when you're, you're dealing with money, and you're dealing with promotion, let's, let's just be completely honest. Conor throwing that dolly at the bus and Conor talking all that shit probably made that fight twice as big. Maybe it would have got one million pay-per-view buys, it wound up getting two and a half million. I- it's worth a lot of fucking money. Think about two and a half million versus o- what one extra million people buying it at whatever the fuck it cost. What does it cost, 70 bucks or something?

Justin Wren 48:19 Ours was $64.99.

Joe Rogan 48:20 That's a lot of money, man.

Justin Wren 48:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:21 Talking about a lot of money. You know? And then, it's worth more for other fights because the whole card was so amazing, it's gonna get more people to watch the next card.

Justin Wren 48:34 What was your favorite card, favorite moment of the night? Was it Derrick Lewis?

Joe Rogan 48:38 Derrick Lewis.

Justin Wren 48:38 Or Tony?

Joe Rogan 48:39 Derrick Lewis.

Justin Wren 48:40 Derrick Lewis.

Joe Rogan 48:40 Yeah, Derrick Lewis winning by knockout.

Justin Wren 48:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:43 And, and in a fight where we said, "The thing about Derrick Lewis is he can always just land one punch." We had, we had just got done saying that like 10 seconds before he lands-

Justin Wren 48:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:53 ... his fucking Howitzer on the top of that dude's head. And then the post-fight interview, we say, he takes his shorts off (laughs) -

Justin Wren 48:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:59 ... and I'm standing there like, "What are you doing, man?" He goes, "My balls is hot." I'm like, "Oh my God." But I mean, I always knew, Derrick's hilarious. He's always hilarious. So I always look forward to talking to him. But his Instagram, if you want to know what Derrick Lewis is about, you got to see his Instagram. And I brought that up, and now he's got like, he's got one-

Justin Wren 49:17 He's got over a million.

Joe Rogan 49:18 ... more than a million.

Justin Wren 49:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:19 What is he at now? Like 500 some thousand in just a couple of days after that fight.

Rafael Lovato Jr. 49:24 (laughs)

Justin Wren 49:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:24 (laughs)

Guest 49:24 (claps)

Justin Wren 49:24 That's so awesome.

Joe Rogan 49:25 But it's true, it's fucking-

Justin Wren 49:26 It is.

Joe Rogan 49:26 ... Instagram's all motorcycle accidents, dudes jumping off roofs and landing on their heads. It's the most fucked up Instagram of all time.

Guest 49:34 (laughs)

Justin Wren 49:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:34 But he's just a funny dude, man. He's really funny. And him and, uh, Daniel Cormier, like them promoting a fight is gonna be a breath of fresh air.

Justin Wren 49:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:44 Because like, did you see the thing where, where, you know, like Daniel was joking around and he said, "He says he's gonna knock me out." He said, "Yeah man, you was disrespecting Popeye's fried chicken." (laughs)

Justin Wren 49:53 Right.

Guest 49:54 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 49:54 (laughs) I mean, it's... Let's play this because it's so funny.

Guest 49:56 Derrick Lewis told me that he was gonna knock me out right before we walked out of here.

Joe Rogan 50:00 Derrick-

Justin Wren 50:01 The music. (laughs)

Guest 50:02 ... what's your issue with Daniel? I wanna know too.

50:09 He disrespect that Popeye's Chicken on a commercial for you.

Justin Wren 50:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:14 (laughs)

Justin Wren 50:14 It's just... You see these two of them together. This is a bad version of it. This is all music and stupid editing, but the- he's just a funny guy, man. He's just a funny guy. And he's... Look. I mean, and h- he joked around about it with DC. He's like... He's got 1.3 million followers now. That is hilarious. I think it's like he just gained a million followers-

Joe Rogan 50:35 Yeah.

Justin Wren 50:35 ... 'cause I've been following him for years now.

Joe Rogan 50:36 Yeah, I think he gained a million followers. And he- you know, they were talking about it and, and he said to Daniel, you know, uh, Daniel said- he goes, "You want... You don't really wanna hit me." He goes, "Motherfucker, I'll fight anybody for money."

Justin Wren 50:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:51 (laughs) And it like... (laughs)

Justin Wren 50:51 You can't-

Joe Rogan 50:52 It's just-

Justin Wren 50:52 It's just classic.

Joe Rogan 50:52 He's just a funny guy.

Justin Wren 50:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:53 And it won't- there won't be any of that. There won't be any nonsense.

Justin Wren 50:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:57 There won't be any... But it'll still sell a lot 'cause it's fun.

Justin Wren 51:01 It's gonna sell a lot of Popeyes too. It's gonna sell a lot of everything. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:03 It's gonna sell a lot of everything. But it'll definitely sell a lot of pay-per-views. The real question is, is he gonna be able to deal with Cormier's wrestling, Cormier's expe- I mean this is the level of fighting that Cormier's experience is just-

Justin Wren 51:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:15 ... significantly higher. But Derrick Lewis has unbelievable power. I mean, his power is fucking no joke, man. If you look at some of his KO victories, he's a brutal puncher. Brutal.

Justin Wren 51:27 He is. But I think if he... And I- I'm a big Derrick Lewis fan, but I think if he fights DC like he fought Volkov, it's gonna be a tough night for him. Um, I know that, I know that it, it could go any way and that one shot from Derrick Lewis can put DC out or anyone in the world out.

Joe Rogan 51:42 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 51:43 Um, but I just see DC's wrestling, his, his dirty boxing, I mean, everything if, if you, if, if Derrick Lewis is turning his back to DC like he was with Volkov-

Joe Rogan 51:53 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 51:53 ... um, he's gonna close the distance. He's gonna take his back. He's gonna exploit that. He's gonna take him down.

Joe Rogan 51:57 Sure. There's a difference between 6'7" and-

Justin Wren 52:00 That's right.

Joe Rogan 52:00 ... 5'10" though.

Justin Wren 52:01 That's true.

Joe Rogan 52:02 There's a giant difference in size-

Justin Wren 52:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:04 ... between Volkov and, and DC. DC is a, a real light heavyweight who, in my opinion, could fight in Rafael's weight class.

Justin Wren 52:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:11 I mean, I think if DC really got his diet in order, he could be a 185-er.

Justin Wren 52:14 It's true, but he can flip over Josh Barnett over his head.

Joe Rogan 52:16 Oh yeah.

Justin Wren 52:17 And all sorts of guys. There's something about that, that round body type though.

Joe Rogan 52:21 (laughs)

Justin Wren 52:21 I mean there really is like-

Joe Rogan 52:22 The barrels.

Justin Wren 52:23 ... the, the, the, you know, the ability to kind of be ungrabable, you know.

Joe Rogan 52:28 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 52:28 And, uh, of course he has the power and he has the wrestling, so I mean, he, uh, he's like an, uh, version of Fedor, you know.

Joe Rogan 52:35 Right, right, right.

Justin Wren 52:35 Very similar, very similar.

Joe Rogan 52:37 Seeing him knock out Stipe with one shot like that was stunning. Like wow. And he was saying that he was doing that in training. He said he hits way harder as a heavyweight. I think just the way he likes to live his life and how he likes to eat, he just has more energy as a heavyweight.

Justin Wren 52:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:51 You know, he might be a better heavyweight.

Justin Wren 52:52 He's gone through a whole life of cutting weight.

Joe Rogan 52:55 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 52:55 An entire life of it. And uh-

Joe Rogan 52:57 Well, and he had to withdraw from the Olympics 'cause of kidney failure.

Justin Wren 53:00 Right, from weight cutting. And I think his life should be a movie for sure. I mean, the way- the stuff that he's overcome, the stuff that has happened to him, the missed opportunities in wrestling. Uh, not missed opportunities, he's one of the... I mean, he's so great.

Joe Rogan 53:12 Yeah.

Justin Wren 53:12 But not being the champion, not being the world champion, not being the Olympic champion.

Joe Rogan 53:16 Yeah.

Justin Wren 53:16 And then coming to... And the life stuff that he's gone through. Um-

Joe Rogan 53:20 I'm just happy that people like him now.

Justin Wren 53:21 Yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan 53:22 Because you remember he was getting booed for so long?

Justin Wren 53:23 Yeah, which was ridiculous.

Joe Rogan 53:24 People-

Justin Wren 53:24 Every time he got booed i- it like broke my heart.

Joe Rogan 53:26 It took a while for people to understand him. And now I think that people, you know... After people seeing him choke out Rumble Johnson and then seeing him knock out Stipe, people are like, "Oh, he's a bad motherfucker."

Justin Wren 53:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:39 "And he's a really nice guy."

Justin Wren 53:40 He's a great dude, one of the best commentators now.

Joe Rogan 53:42 Yeah. Oh, he's hilarious.

Justin Wren 53:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:43 That's also what made him grow on people as well.

Justin Wren 53:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:46 Like you hear him in commentary and you realize like, he's not an egomaniac, he's a really good guy-

Justin Wren 53:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:51 ... who knows a lot about fighting, knows a lot about wrestling. And um, man, I'm so looking forward to Jon Jones coming back too.

Justin Wren 53:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:59 Jon Jones fighting Gustafsson. That is very fascinating.

Justin Wren 54:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:02 Is that gonna... Uh, I know they're gonna strip DC. So is that, is that fight for a title or-

Justin Wren 54:07 Yeah, I guess.

Joe Rogan 54:08 ... interim or the real deal?

Justin Wren 54:09 I think that's the real deal.

Joe Rogan 54:10 The real deal.

Justin Wren 54:11 It's the real deal.

Joe Rogan 54:11 Yeah. Which is weird, right?

Justin Wren 54:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:13 Like, why let the guy be champ-champ if you're not gonna let him... I mean-

Justin Wren 54:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:18 I don't know. It's like... I don't know. I mean, I'm so torn on all this.

Justin Wren 54:23 Well, he's probably gonna fight the winner anyways and then-

Joe Rogan 54:25 Yeah.

Justin Wren 54:25 ... it'll be for the belt. So maybe let him keep the belt.

Joe Rogan 54:27 I- I mean, look, I love the UFC obviously. I've been working for the UFC forever. But I think there's an obvious conflict of interest when the promoter is also responsible for who holds titles-

Justin Wren 54:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:40 ... and who gets to fight for titles. It's weird, you know. I mean, in every other sport, there's like a sanctioning body-

Justin Wren 54:48 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:48 ... that decides this is, you know... Rafael Lovato won five fights in a row. He's the undisputed number one contender. He will be next in line for the title. You know, not, "Oh, Logan Paul sold five million YouTube buys." (laughs)

Justin Wren 55:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:03 "He's next." You know what I mean?

Justin Wren 55:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:04 It's like it's weird. Like it's, it's weird that commerce... I mean, it plays a giant part in any sport-

Justin Wren 55:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:12 ... right? But should it be the ultimate decider in what, what happens and what doesn't happen?

Justin Wren 55:18 Would you ever support the Muhammad Ali Act coming over to MMA?

Joe Rogan 55:21 I don't know exactly how that act is structured. What does, what does, what does it say?

Justin Wren 55:25 I don't know a lot about it, but I know that, um... I believe the Muhammad Ali Act-

Joe Rogan 55:29 Let's pull it up so we can-

Justin Wren 55:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:30 ... we could talk about it from an educated perspective.

Justin Wren 55:32 Yeah. For sure. I think that the promoters have to split 50% of the revenue with the fighters, I think.

Joe Rogan 55:37 Is that what it says?

Justin Wren 55:38 Oh, I think so. Um, I think, uh, that is part of it and then-

Joe Rogan 55:41 They would start doing that Hollywood, uh, arithmetic.

Justin Wren 55:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:44 Like, you know, you know that Hollywood arithmetic, like when, when a movie comes out... Do you know how that works?

Justin Wren 55:49 No.

Joe Rogan 55:50 Dude, it's hilarious. When they... Uh, people who have written movies and produced movies and so... And, and dealt with, with studios, they factor in all this other shit-... like, this is how much my car costs, this is how much the, it costs for gas. This is how much (laughs) it costs to rent this building, this is electricity. Oh, there's no more money left over.

Guest 56:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:10 Okay, here it says, "The Ali Act Amending Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 specifies that a sanctioning organization may not receive any compensation from a boxing mast- match unless it files its bylaws and a complete description of its ratings criteria, policies, and general sanctioning fee scheduled with the FTC. The act further directs the FTC to make this information available to the public. A sanctioning organization does not have to submit this information to the FTC, however, it makes the information accessible through a public website." All right, if you can translate that. I don't know what the fuck that means.

Guest 56:48 Yeah, I don't... I don't know. I've, I've heard that part, which I'm, I'm not sure that that's specific though, splitting the revenue. Um, but then I also think it takes out of the promoter's hands, uh-

Joe Rogan 56:57 What does that say? Look at that, where it says, "Law 15 U.S." And what is that fucking double squiggle shit? What is that?

Guest 57:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:03 I've never seen that thing before.

Guest 57:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:05 You ever seen that thing before? Um, for a law- Have you seen it? ... for a law. You've seen it?

Guest 57:09 Yeah, for... I mean, in this context, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:11 I've never seen that thing before. That's wh- that's what a law is? So like a dollar bill thing?

Guest 57:15 Like a code, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:15 Like, that's like, like a law?

Guest 57:18 Let's see.

Joe Rogan 57:19 That's like a symbol for a law. Have you seen that before?

Guest 57:20 I, I think so. There's a, there's a law that, um, Fight for the Forgotten's been looking into, um, for bullying prevention. Uh, it's called David's Law out of Texas and that, that same squiggly thing is, is on there.

Joe Rogan 57:31 That didn't even show up on Google.

Guest 57:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:34 He just googled it and it didn't show up. Look at that, did not match any documents.

Guest 57:37 Huh.

57:38 Oh.

Joe Rogan 57:38 So, uh, okay. Whatever that is. I mean, I guess that's a law thing. I'm... Look, I'm a- always a f- I always favor the fighters, always, because they have a very short amount of time to do it, they put the most on the line, they have the most at risk. Um, the consequences of their actions are, you know, in terms of l- losing, in terms of, um, just they're... The, the possibility that they get horribly injured in training and not get compensated. There's all sorts... There's a, a bunch of factors that I don't feel are, uh, fair or just. Look, I was very upset when Tony, um, when Tony Ferguson got stripped.

Guest 58:16 Stripped, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:16 I mean, he-

Guest 58:17 Me too.

Joe Rogan 58:18 ... fell, he ripped his knee apart, and they stripped him. I mean, look, I'm... I get that they would be upset that the fight would happen, uh, or that the fight would not happen and that he would... You know, someone else would have to take his place. I understand that, but stripping him doesn't make any sense. Like, how could he get stripped for an injury? It's one thing if he did something to someone, like the Jon Jones situation, crashed into that lady's car, took off from the scene. That makes sense, it's an ethics violation, right? This is not an ethics thing. He fell. You know, it's unfortunate-

Guest 58:49 Helping to promote the fight.

Joe Rogan 58:51 Yeah, I mean, he just tripped-

Guest 58:52 And, and immediate.

Joe Rogan 58:52 ... over some wires. And, uh, it was erroneously stated by many people, me included, because I read it somewhere that he was wearing sunglasses. He was not wearing sunglasses inside, he was just wearing glasses. He just stepped over... So it was just a freak thing, man, just a freak thing. Stepped over some wires and, uh, especially a guy as coordinated as him.

Guest 59:08 What a way to get injured too. Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 59:09 Fucking crazy. Didn't make any sense.

Guest 59:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:11 Crazy. I mean, it's horrible, but there's no, no one to say no to that.

Guest 59:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:17 Right? It's like, how does that work? How do you decide? Like, how do you decide who gets stripped and who doesn't, who's got an interim title? I mean, how many interim titles can you have? It's just like, this-

Guest 59:27 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:27 It's... It's just weird.

Guest 59:29 Just for the rankings and the ability to get your shot, you know?

Joe Rogan 59:34 Yeah.

Guest 59:34 Just that by itself, I think, deserves a sanctioning body, f- 100%, let alone the ability for them to get paid more and be more, you know, fair across the board and everything.

Joe Rogan 59:44 Well, y- you see how, like, USADA has completely taken away, uh, uh... Like, the UFC has nothing to say about USADA testing and about the, the punishment that it implements. It is... It's completely independent. So what they do is they come in, they randomly drug test fighters, they, they make sure the fighters give their whereabouts at all times. They have to register and log in and let everybody know wherever, wherever they are, and if they violate that, USADA hands out the punishment. And we've seen these punishments and they're strict. They're very severe. And they, they, they take away a fighter's ability to make an... A living if they violate any of their policies or if they test positive for any supplements. They've since made, uh, what I think is a welcome amendment where, um, if, if, if a fighter... If it's possible that it's a tainted supplement or they have a trace amount of something in, in their... They don't say anything until after it's resolved. So instead of like putting the fighter on blast and putting it out there to the whole world, "Hey, this guy tested positive," instead of doing that, they resolve it and then-

Guest 1:00:51 Which is smart.

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Yeah, which is the way they should do it.

Guest 1:00:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 But still, look at a guy like Josh Barnett, okay? Josh Barnett was ultimately exonerated, but he had to go like two years where he couldn't make a living and when you're... Josh is 40 years old. This... That's fucking-

Guest 1:01:07 You don't have two years to spare.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 You don't have two years to spare. Right, that's fucking crazy. So... But my point is, that is a completely independent entity, right? It's outside of the UFC's ability to... They don't control that, they step back, they take care of it. It kind of should be that way w- when it comes to who gets to fight for the title.

Guest 1:01:28 Yeah.

1:01:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 If a title is a title, like if it's... If it's the world championship and you look at a guy like Tony Ferguson, I think... I believe he's 11 and one in the UFC, right? He's on this crazy win streak.

Guest 1:01:40 Win streak.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 He's fucking beating... You look at his, his like who's who of who he's beaten.

Guest 1:01:47 Crazy dominating-

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 Barboza, Kevin Lee. I mean-

Guest 1:01:49 There's really no one else for him to fight. He has to fight for this title. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 He's beating the elites. Oh, the only person he hasn't beaten is Conor and Khabib.

Guest 1:01:55 Khabib.

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 Those are the two guys. Fuck, man. I mean, what do you-

Guest 1:01:57 Give them to him, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Yeah, you gotta-

Guest 1:01:59 Let him prove himself.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Look, if you looked at it that way, you would say he's next, but-... if you were Mr. Money Bags and you're like, "Ooh, Conor wants a rematch? Oh, Conor'll give you a rematch." Come on, baby.

Guest 1:02:10 Yeah, that's another area where the sport and entertainment crosses.

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 Mm-hmm. Right.

Justin Wren 1:02:13 What, what do you think about tournaments coming back to the UFC? Or, I mean, they haven't done that, but what do you think about them doing that for finding out who's going to fight for the title? Bellator is doing it now.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 Mm-hmm.

Justin Wren 1:02:22 PFL's been doing it. My buddy, Josh Copeland, uh, just made it to... He was ranked eighth seed, um, came in, fought two times one night.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 Right.

Justin Wren 1:02:30 Um, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:02:30 And Vini Magalhaes as well, right?

Guest 1:02:32 Yeah, yeah.

Justin Wren 1:02:32 Yep, yep. And that was an awesome triangle.

Guest 1:02:33 He went two beautiful submissions last-

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 Dude! He's like one of the most underappreciated guys in MMA.

Guest 1:02:38 Turned on the camera.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 You know, because-

Guest 1:02:39 Yeah, one of the few that can jump guard. (imitates fighting noises)

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 And you're fucked, man.

Guest 1:02:42 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 That guy wraps his legs around you. He just had a rocky start because his striking-

Guest 1:02:47 Wasn't there yet.

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 ... wasn't there.

Guest 1:02:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 But now it is.

Guest 1:02:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 I mean, he's head-kicking people and knocking them out, you know?

Justin Wren 1:02:51 Did you see, uh, did you see Josh Copeland's, uh, knockout at heavyweight? Uh, it was one of the best knockouts at heavyweight in a long time.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 No, I didn't see it. I didn't see it.

Justin Wren 1:02:58 In a long time. It's on my Instagram if, uh, you're able to pull that up, Jamie. It's, uh... Please, it's, um, on my Instagram and it was awesome. He got the deepest cut, one of the deepest cuts I've ever seen in my life. You could see his skull.

Guest 1:03:09 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:03:09 Um, and it went, it went farther than his eyebrow.

Guest 1:03:12 Oh.

Justin Wren 1:03:12 And, uh, he got cut probably five seconds before he gets the knockout punch. And if he wouldn't have got that, they would have stopped it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 Oh, no.

Justin Wren 1:03:19 Came in ranked eighth seed. Now he's going into new, New York City, Madison Square Garden's New Year's Eve, um, and fighting for a million dollars.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 Dude, how does this work? How does... What does the million dollars, uh, what does that mean? Like, does every weight class win a million?

Justin Wren 1:03:34 I, I believe they have 10... They're giving away 10 million, so at least 10 weight classes, um, I think for the winning two.

Joe Rogan 1:03:40 And where did... What do they air on, NBC? Is that what they-

Justin Wren 1:03:41 NBC Sports.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 NBC Sports.

Justin Wren 1:03:43 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 So it's like, uh, one of the cable channels, right?

Justin Wren 1:03:45 Mm-hmm. And then, uh, for Josh, they, they just fought in, uh, New Orleans and he had to fight a two-round fight first, and then he fought a three-round.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 Two-round?

Justin Wren 1:03:55 Two-f- two-round.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 In the night? Same night?

Justin Wren 1:03:56 Because they wouldn't allow you... Uh, the state commission wouldn't allow you to fight more than five rounds in one night. And so the first round or first fight, um, first part of the tournament was a two-round fight and he had to fight the number one seed. He beat him, um, and then an hour later, uh, he had to fight again. Here's Josh. It was just a brutal knockout, but he got cut right over the eye and then right here he just-

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 Boom!

Justin Wren 1:04:21 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Oh, damn.

Justin Wren 1:04:22 Oof.

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 Damn.

Justin Wren 1:04:24 One of the, one of the best knockouts I've seen in a while, but it's, uh...

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 Dude, he looks way thicker than-

Justin Wren 1:04:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:29 ... when he was fighting in the UFC.

Justin Wren 1:04:31 Yeah, he's really gotten his nutrition under, but if you can see that cut or... His, I mean, it was brutal. Um, Bas Rutten was interviewing afterwards. He's like, "Josh, I can see your skull right there."

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 Boom!

Justin Wren 1:04:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 That's a haymaker of a right hand.

Justin Wren 1:04:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Holy shit. And then he walks away.

Guest 1:04:44 Alex Nickolson was chasing him, yep.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 I mean, yeah, he looks much better physically than he did when he was fighting in the UFC.

Justin Wren 1:04:50 Yeah. He's been working his butt off. He's earned it and, uh, now he gets to fight for a million dollars which is awesome.

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 Is he training down with you guys in Oklahoma?

Justin Wren 1:04:56 He, he isn't. Um, whenever I have, am in camp, he'll come down for like two weeks before my fight.

Guest 1:05:01 He's a super nice guy.

Justin Wren 1:05:02 Yeah.

Guest 1:05:03 Super fun guy.

Justin Wren 1:05:03 Yeah, he, uh, he really seems like a really nice guy. I've met him before, but, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 (laughs)

Guest 1:05:07 Which, I don't know if you know, he's a, uh, he's a nine-time competitive Rocky Mountain Oyster-eating Champion of Colorado.

Justin Wren 1:05:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 (laughs) Which, by the way, is bull testicles.

Justin Wren 1:05:17 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 People who don't know.

Justin Wren 1:05:18 He's the only guy I've been with that, uh, we go to... So have you ever heard of The Big Texan? Um, the 72-ounce steak, the large... This is in Amarillo. 72-ounce steak, you have to eat it in an hour or you have to pay for it. 72-ounce steak, huge, large baked potato, loaded, uh, a dinner salad, a shrimp cocktail, huge dinner roll. You have to drink a 72-ounce soda with it and-

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 Can you get a diet soda? Or does it have to be a regular soda?

Justin Wren 1:05:40 I don't know.

Guest 1:05:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 Look at the size of that.

Justin Wren 1:05:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 That's preposterous.

Justin Wren 1:05:43 Woo! The, the, the Man Versus Food guy, uh, barely finished it and like-

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 He did finish it?

Justin Wren 1:05:47 Barely finished it. Man Versus Food, Jo- uh, I think it was like 58, 59 minutes, something like that. Josh did it in 32 minutes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Oh!

Justin Wren 1:05:54 I think it was the fastest that's ever been done.

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 Jesus fucking Christ. (laughs) That is so insane.

Justin Wren 1:05:58 And then, and then, get this though, have y'all ever seen the endless shrimp at Red Lobster? So Josh went to Red Lobster, endless shrimp, and, uh, and he asked them what was the most someone's ever eaten in shrimp. And, uh, he had already eaten a bunch. He ge- he always says, "You don't go to Red Lobster and not start off with the cheddar biscuits." You know, you have to eat those. He had like three or four of those or a whole basket of them. And then the lady said, "I think the most anyone's ever eaten was..." I think it was 226. Two hundred and twenty-six shrimp.

Guest 1:06:26 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:06:26 (laughs) And, and Josh...

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:06:29 Two hundred and twenty-six like of the like coconut or fried shrimp, whatever it is.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 Oh, my God.

Justin Wren 1:06:33 And Josh is like, "There's my mark."

Guest 1:06:35 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:06:35 "That's what I'm gonna do." Um, or, "That's m- that's my goal."

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 What kind of calories are we talking there?

Justin Wren 1:06:40 (laughs)

Guest 1:06:40 Man, the guy told us food stories all night that... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 It was just rolling.

Guest 1:06:44 He's got like four or five restaurants he's literally not allowed into.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:06:47 Yeah. (laughs) No, literally. It's not a joke. So, so Josh gets to-

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Like all you can eat sushi places.

Guest 1:06:51 Yes. (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:06:51 He gets to like 250 and they're like, "Okay, you broke the record." And he's like, "No, I s- I'm still hungry." And so he gets to 300.

Joe Rogan 1:06:58 What?

Justin Wren 1:06:58 He gets to 300.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 Three hundred shrimp?

Justin Wren 1:07:00 Shrimp. He ends at 400 and calls it good.

Guest 1:07:03 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:07:03 Four hundred shrimp.

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 What do you think, like, what does that look like if you put it on like a cube? If you had like a box you could put 400 fried shrimp in it.

Justin Wren 1:07:12 Uh... I don't know, he smelled like garlic for three days afterwards.

Joe Rogan 1:07:14 Did he?

Guest 1:07:14 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:07:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 Ugh.

Justin Wren 1:07:15 Then, then we went to a... I don't know why I'm going to a dollar store.

Joe Rogan 1:07:18 I know what his toilet looked like.

Guest 1:07:18 (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:07:19 But we went into a all-you-can-eat, uh, crab restaurant or sorry, he did. And, uh, it was all-you-can-eat crab legs and he's just ordering bucket after bucket after bucket of, of crab legs. And they come over and finally said this, "Sir, there's gotta be a limit somewhere." (laughs) And so-

Guest 1:07:33 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 So, uh-

Guest 1:07:34 They have to ask you to leave. (laughs)

Justin Wren 1:07:34 They have to ask you to leave so he can eat. But now he's gotten his diet under control and everything else. Whenever he came to grudge, whenever I got off The Ultimate Fighter, he came in at over 350 pounds. I think it was 356 or-

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 Wow.

Justin Wren 1:07:44 ... maybe it was 346, something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:07:46 What is he down to now?

Justin Wren 1:07:47 I think he walks around at like 245, 250.

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 He looks a lot slimmer.

Justin Wren 1:07:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:50 But he also looks thicker, like in his shoulders and the chest.

Guest 1:07:53 Yeah.

Justin Wren 1:07:53 He's been working with Loren Landau, who-

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 Okay.

Justin Wren 1:07:55 ... is a great guy that Brendan worked with that I'm working with.

Joe Rogan 1:07:57 So he's in Colorado as well?

Justin Wren 1:07:58 He's in Colorado.

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 Okay.

Justin Wren 1:07:59 So he's