EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,037 words- 0:01 – 1:33
Youngstown connections, LA training trip, and catching up
- JRJoe Rogan
Three, two... Youngstown in the house. How are you, brother?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Good. How are you doing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Thanks for doing this, man. I appreciate it.
- KPKelly Pavlik
No, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're out here, um, workin' with Danny Garcia?
- KPKelly Pavlik
No, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, Mikey- Mikey Garcia.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mikey Garcia and, uh, Garcia Camp. Um, also I came out, you know, a couple things, uh, as we mentioned earlier, a buddy of mine, uh, Mark LaMicca throwin' some ideas around and kinda just taking a week out here in California to, you know, keep moving.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's nice, right?
- KPKelly Pavlik
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's nice-
- KPKelly Pavlik
It is nice.
- JRJoe Rogan
... out there.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. It was nice in, uh, Ohio, believe it or not, and then, uh, this morning they woke up to like three inches of snow. So now I'm out here enjoying and they got the snow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the thing about LA is no one's from here, so everybody grew up in a place like Youngstown or something like that. Like you were saying, you run into a bunch of Youngstown people out here.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Tony Hinchcliffe got super excited to see you.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Absolutely. And I'm-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know, and that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
... what's weird about that. I'm excited to see him and he's excited to see me and it's, uh, it was really cool. Um, you know, I- I- I've heard of Tony and I knew of Tony, you know, before and everything. And then, uh, to finally be able to meet him and somebody from Youngstown that's doing, you know, great things, it was kinda cool. So...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, no. It was cool hanging out with you when we were in Columbus too.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was a fun time.
- KPKelly Pavlik
It was. There was good eatings too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. What was the name of that place again?
- KPKelly Pavlik
You guys picked it, I believe.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's- Italian Market, I think it was. Whose joint was that? Is that- It was your friend's friend of a friend, I don't remember the name. Matt Brown's friend, right? Yeah. I don't remember the name. Matthew Mortal? Yeah, it was-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Another good guy.
- 1:33 – 2:54
MMA brutality vs boxing damage: elbows, stoppages, and long fights
- KPKelly Pavlik
I gotta tell you a funny story with him. We were at my gym and he came and did a seminar at my gym and, uh, it was... And my... I have just a fitness gym right now there. And he was going over and he was showing people when he kinda came in and I was showing like a little punch and a hook, and he started doing the, the elbow off the hook. Now, I'm a pretty big guy now since I retired and I'm, you know, and I'm working on losing the weight, but he hit me with that elbow on my arm and it, it just hurt. And it was slow motion. He wasn't throwing it hard. And I'm going, if, if this son of a bitch really wanted to turn that over, I wouldn't wanna get hit by it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Elbows are awful. Bones are awful. It's like, it always weirds me out that the UFC, uh, has little padding on the gloves, but there's no padding in your shins, no padding on your elbows, no padding-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... on your knees. It's a terrible way to take a beating.
- KPKelly Pavlik
It is. And people get into the brutality of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Unfortunate, not 'cause I boxed, I think box is more brutal, the only reason is because if you get dropped in boxing, you got 10 seconds to get up. Your brain could be rattled in the first round and you could get dropped four more times in that fight, you got 36 minutes of fighting. Unfortunately, in MMA, yeah, they're hitting you with the knees, the elbows, and if you go down, they usually stop the fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Rightfully so, because somebody could come down with an atomic knee drop and-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
... you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not legal. (laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
(laughs) Yeah. I know, but I'm just saying it's, uh, or anything can happen in it, so...
- 2:54 – 6:44
Retiring at 30 and feeling the comeback itch (without being broke)
- JRJoe Rogan
When you were fighting, uh, MMA wasn't as big as it is now, but did you ever think about doing it?
- KPKelly Pavlik
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
No?
- KPKelly Pavlik
And to be honest with you, no. Um, but I was always interested in it. I was. I was always interested in the martial arts. Um, actually that's how I got into boxing, was a young kid taking taekwondo and, and, uh, I don't know that's how you pronounce it, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) That is how you pronounce it.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... yeah. Okay. And, um, you know, I got into it, but th- it was, to me, it was kinda like boring. I'm a young kid, you know, I was full of piss and vinegar and I wanted to actually get in and do something. And I played other sports, but, uh, you know, then after I retired a little bit, um, I kinda strayed away from everything in the fight game. And, um, and I started getting interested in jiu-jitsu and stuff like that and-
- JRJoe Rogan
How old were you when you retired?
- KPKelly Pavlik
30.
- JRJoe Rogan
30? That's young.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. Still am pretty young.
- JRJoe Rogan
How old are you now?
- KPKelly Pavlik
36.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. You're still in the range.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? That's an effective range.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Well, that's why I've been, uh, working out and I, you know, I- I kinda slowed down on the power lifting a lot and been doing- getting flexible again.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you haven't had a fight in six years. Do you ever get to itch?
- KPKelly Pavlik
That's why I- I'm saying I'm-
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you getting the itch right now?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. Uh, I've-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. I've- I've been, um... Well, another reason with- why I came out and was talking with Mark and everything, but you know, I- I don't wanna lead nobody ever on either. You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KPKelly Pavlik
This is something-
- JRJoe Rogan
You're just thinking.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... I'm- I'm- I'm really thinking about it and I'm working out loo- losing the weight, but at the same time, there's a- a lot of process behind that too. I would have to sit down with the family, um, just go over a lot of things, you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you doing any boxing these days?
- KPKelly Pavlik
I- I've been working out, just hitting the bag, pads-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... stuff like that.
- 6:44 – 7:49
Powerlifting, weight management, and why weight cuts change careers
- JRJoe Rogan
What made you decide to go powerlifting? Start with-
- KPKelly Pavlik
I know, tell me this. Just fucking show bitches what's up.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. (laughs) That's- that's another one.
- JRJoe Rogan
Show them guns.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Exactly, right? I was tired. Think about it. I was so damn skinny, if I turned sideways and stuck my tongue out, I'd look like a zipper.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know what I mean? Um, a- and- and being six foot two, 100... And making... Having to make a 160 pounds, even between fights you still had to maintain, you know, your weight. And it... I got tired of that. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
What was your walking around weight?
- KPKelly Pavlik
I would walk around about 173.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not that bad.
- KPKelly Pavlik
No, it's not, and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
For MMA, that's real light.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. And, you know, and then... Uh, but as I got older, yeah, it started getting a little more difficult to, you know, keep that, and I started getting up to, like, 175, 1... You know, almost 180. So now you're looking at a... And I'm still skinny at that point, so now you're looking at having to lose 20 more pounds again to get down at that age. And it came to a point, um, which caused a a lot of issues for me in, in one fight, with the Martinez fight, and, uh, after that, we had to jump up.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. (smacks lips) Yeah, that point of diminishing returns, right? When you're-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... cutting too much weight.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- 7:49 – 10:16
Jermaine Taylor fight memories and the judging problem in combat sports
- JRJoe Rogan
When you fought Jermaine Taylor, that was 160, right?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, dude. That was one fight where I remember getting angry at Larry Merchant. 'Cause Larry Merchant is calling the fight. I'm like, he's not r... Uh, he's wasn't recognizing that you were tuning him up.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you were hurting him. And you... It got... He... Like, he was, he was commenting on a ... Almost like it was a trend that he expected to see rather than what was actually happening.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. It was a lot of things about that fight. I love them guys because believe it or not, in my opinion, that was a great fight, and I seen that they had that fight in the top 10 middle weight, uh, one of the top 10 middle weight fights of all time, and that's kind of a cool thing. But also, you know, some of that commentating though, really made that fight, especially at the end, in my opinion, made that fight kinda what it was also, you know, besides the fact of me getting dropped and everything. But, um, you know, I didn't agree with the judging of it, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
'Cause I still had me at head. I went back and watched it. I'm not one of those egotistical people either. Like, I like to really break down what happened in that fight, and I ... And if I lost a round, I would say I lost a round.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know, I was hard on myself with that. I watched that fight now probably 10 times, and I don't see where they had Jermaine winning, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
I gave him one round and plus a 10A, so that's a total of three rounds. And, uh, I don't see how that happened.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, (sighs) you know, I mean, we've d- we've had this conversation 100 times in this podcast, but judging in boxing and judging in MMA, judging is just terrible.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just ter- It's one... It's sad. It doesn't make any sense. There's so many experts out there. There's so many really reliable people that you can call on that would do a great job of- of- of figuring what's going on in a fight. And for whatever reason-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they don't get those jobs.
- KPKelly Pavlik
I think they gotta start doing something soon in boxing with that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
They have to figure something out with the judging. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
You see the Charlo fight?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yes. Yeah. And I ... There's a handful of people I had the argument with that actually thought Charlo lost. Um, I didn't think that he looked as good as he could've in that fight-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... but I thought he won the fight, you know, um, 116-112. Uh, but I don't know what system they could try to break down for that a- or try to get to actually start making some of them fights fair, but boxing's doing fantastic the past two years. I mean, the numbers are crazy. You seen what Dazone, um, did with Canelo, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
So it's- it's there. There's ev- The attention's at the sport, and the popularity of it's coming back, but what could eventually hurt it again is things like the- the judging of the fights-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... and the outcomes.
- 10:16 – 13:01
Robberies, incentives, and promoter influence: why outcomes feel suspect
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's certain ones where you- you wanna, like ... You want a criminal investigation.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, uh, Tim Bradley, Manny Pacquiao. That was one where after that was over, I- I was like ... I was looking at the TV, I was looking to the side-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... I was looking away. I was like, "What the fuck did I just see? What just happened here?"
- KPKelly Pavlik
That fight right there, I actually had to walk away with my head down. I ... That- that was probably one of the worst robberies that I've ever seen in boxing.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was a horrible robbery.
- KPKelly Pavlik
I searched to give Tim Bradley two rounds. I gave him one ... Uh, I was trying to give him rounds to kinda, like, say, "How- how ... Where did you get this at?" In other words.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And I couldn't do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I love Tim Bradley too, by the way.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Awesome guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Awesome, awesome fighter too. I mean, he's just all heart. I mean, that guy's ... He's amazing. But that just was a bad decision. And, you know, I think there was a ... There was a lady that was responsible for two really bad decisions. There was-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Byrd.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Natalya Byrd.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it her, or was it ... Was another one too. There was anoth- (laughs) Natalya Byrd, she does MMA too.
- KPKelly Pavlik
(clicks tongue) I wanna say, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah, Lata- Letterman's daughter, maybe?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there was ... No, there was another lady who, uh, retired from doing it after that decision. It was, like, a big controversy. People were-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They ... Her- her score was so off, people were thinking she got paid off.
- KPKelly Pavlik
There's so many anymore though, it's hard to keep up with it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, the thing is, and- and people that are cynical or skeptical, do you know how much money is being bet on fights, especially a Manny Pacquiao fight? There's so much money.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And if someone like Pacquiao's a prohibitive favorite heading into a Tim Bradley fight, I mean, who knows? It could be four to one, five to one, six to one.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Somebody rolls up with a nice brown baggie filled with-
- KPKelly Pavlik
(laughs) And it's-
- 13:01 – 17:22
Wilder–Fury: scoring damage, the count controversy, and tactical lessons
- JRJoe Rogan
I wasn't terribly upset at the Wilder-Fury decision, I wasn't terribly upset.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I thought, I thought, "You know what? I think Tyson Fury did enough to win." But when I look at it, I like when, I like when they score damage. Damage means a lot to me and when I look at that fight when, when Wilder hurt him, he hurt him twice and he hurt him real bad. I mean, I think that's worth a lot and I think he was always threatening, so I felt like (inhales sharply) I don't know if I would agree with a draw. I think it was a close decision win for Tyson Fury, but I didn't hate it.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I didn't hate it 'cause I think I'd like to see them fight again.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Absolutely. I mean, it was one of them fights where, yes, you're 100% right, that it could end in a draw and I think everybody would be kind of satisfied with that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Um, unfortunately, with the, the count and knockdown, which I was so frustrated with the, the comments and, you know, I had to stay away from the social media and the, the boxing groups and, and things like that because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why is that?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Oh, just, you know, the, some of the, um, opinions of people, that's the way to put it, uh, "Oh, well, that f- that was a long count." And this-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... and that. There's been thousands of fights in the last 10 years that I've very seldom heard anybody complain about a count. You know, that, that fight, um, they don't do a ten-second count in boxing. They go by the referee's count.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And for another thing where, uh, Wilder kind of hurt himself, referee tells you in the locker room before the fight and he explains it to you, s- go to your neutral corner. If you come out of your neutral corner, I will stop the count. Y- you mean, you know that, so the first thing I used to do when I dropped somebody is I ran my ass to that neutral corner, you know, so that referee can start counting. Um, I didn't see any issue with the, the knockdown. I even recorded it on my phone and if you did go by the ten-second count, Tyson Fury still beat it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yes. I have it. You know, I'd have to go through and find it. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
I thought I saw it on, uh, Instagram or one or the other. It was... I think it was on Wilder's, uh, Instagram where he had it where the count starts right when Fury drops.
- KPKelly Pavlik
I counted it as soon as his back... almost right before his back hits the ground until where he got up. And again, that's only a ten-second count-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... without a referee even coming over to him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Um, (smacks lips) but, you know, as far as the, the fight itself, I gave, I gave Wilder, obviously, the two knockdowns. That's automatically four rounds. But I thought th- a- and I gave him one other round after that. I thought Tyson Fury controlled the action, you know, uh, ha- controlled the momentum of the fight. On the flip side of it, I think that Wilder actually could have made that a easier fight too. You know, Wilder actually has a hard time with his control. H- he don't know how to really work to the body. I don't wanna put it on the trainer, I don't know what the issue is with that, but he neglected that body a lot throughout the fight and I just thought that's why Tyson won most of those rounds. You know, he just controlled the action, the pace, and was kinda able to do what he wanted to. And I think that if Wilder went back with his trainer and watched the tape of that fight, they're gonna see a lot of opportunities that were missed in that fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you know, what's crazy about Wilder is how little time he's actually been boxing.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it's really stunning. When he was on here, he told us that he made it to the Olympic team a year and a half into wor- learning boxing.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he won a bronze medal.
- KPKelly Pavlik
In the heavyweight division though, you can kinda get away with that too.
- 17:22 – 21:21
Power vs pressure: what makes great fighters (Chavez, Duran, footwork science)
- KPKelly Pavlik
Well, 'cause that is a missile he's firing, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Fucking crazy power that guy has, isn't it?
- KPKelly Pavlik
It is, and I try to explain to people on that too, "You don't have to be a big guy."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know, you know, it's all about the leverage-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... how you do torque, uh, where you ge- how you generate that power and, you know, he's just one of them guys that... That's o- one of the things where you either have it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... you got it in the cradle or you don't.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And that's another one that you try to explain. Even like in baseball.You're either a home run hitter or you're not, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You could work on it a little bit and maybe knock one or two more home runs out, or knock a guy or two out more. But if you don't have it, you're not going to, unless you really go back over and find the time and patience to reprogram that fighter and change their whole style.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it feels like one-punch knockout power, you either have or you don't.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And... But the, the guys who could put it on you and stop you, like Julio Cesar Chavez, never had really that one-punch knockout power-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but he fucked a lot of people up.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah, and he had that body shot too. (whoosh sound) He didn't ha- he didn't need a, a knockout punch to the head.
- JRJoe Rogan
Dude, he was so perfect. When he was in his prime, the way he would fight was constant bobbing, weaving-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... moving in. And then once he put that pace on you-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it was just constant damage, constant punches, the volume, the volume, the accuracy, and the fact that he never got tired. He would just keep that pace up, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap. And you would see guys just start to wilt-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... just backing up all the time, just wilt under that pressure.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yep. And that's the, uh, that body attack that he had. How he invested into that body from the early rounds, people carry those punches. You know? They carry that into the fifth and sixth round.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And it was brutal. You know? I couldn't imagine, uh, fighting... I fought some tough guys, but I was glad, you know, being a tall guy, that nobody ever went to the body like that, against me.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 21:21 – 32:57
Lomachenko deep dive: angles, cross-training, and why film study fails
- JRJoe Rogan
And his, like... You know? Uh, the guy who does it the best today about cutting angles and being right in front of you and can't hit him is Lomachenko. (laughs) I mean, poof. I mean, Lomachenko stands right in front of you and then he's not.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then he's over here and then he's punching you in the face. TJ Dillashaw, who's a UFC bantamweight champion, said he sparred with him and he said the first round was like, you know, Lomachenko is just feeling him up, just figuring him out. And you know, he's like, "Wow, I'm kind of hanging in there with this guy."
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then his dad yelled something in Russian. And then the second round, Lomachenko is just dancing around him-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... stepping to the side, touching him in the face. (laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
And unfortunately, that was the only round they put on YouTube too. You know what I mean? Um, yeah, I seen that. You know, the thing about Lomachenko is this, uh... And, and I tell people also, like, Floyd Mayweather was, is a unbelievable defensive fighter.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
But Floyd was really good on drawing you in, you know, and kind of countering off that. His defense and his reflexes were amazing, but he kind of lured you in a little bit, made you mismake- made you make a mistake, and then he would counter you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Lomachenko, on the other hand, is a guy, you could throw a punch and that punch could be in mid-air, and he's spinning and he's already behind you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
He is, uh... The athleticism is astonishing. I, I have not seen it. Uh, granted, can he lose? Absolutely, it's boxing. And if you get one of them rugged guys that are just gonna come in and say, "You know what? Screw it. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna get hit, but I'm gonna hit him." That may be a type of fighter that beats Lomachenko.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, w- who was it that, what was it, the Mexican guy who beat him, uh, in one of his first fights?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Oh, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Solis?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Uh, Salido.
- JRJoe Rogan
Salido.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right, right. Yeah, that was the f- kind of fight that he fought.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just dirty, got on top of him.
- KPKelly Pavlik
But you gotta understand on that point too, that was Lomachenko's second pro fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And again-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a real veteran.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Uh, yeah, a guy who's been there and done it and seen it. And that's the argument. And it's hard to explain, again, and that was another argument on these, uh, that I get a little frustrated reading. A second pro fight, usually in boxing, though, it goes like, the first year, you're up four or six. Second year you, maybe you start getting up to eight. But you get a good amount of fights under your belt before you start getting into the 10 rounds and 12 rounds. Okay? Um, you're talking about a kid coming out of the amateurs fighting three three-minute rounds or four two-minute rounds, depending on whatever tournament or international tournament it is. And he's going right into a twelve, twelve-round fight.I know my- myself coming up, and the process that Top Rank brought me up, which was a- a great process too, they had... They picked the fights and they made sure the fights that they picked for me were the correct fights. And they groomed me the right way, you know, by rounds and everything else. And I know just jumping from six to eight, the difference in that, you know, let alone being a kid and you're going into your second pro fight and you're fighting a 12-round fight. So if he lost that fight, which he came back and he made it a really close fight, I would have to tip my hat to him just on the fact that he was able to go 12 rounds.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know? Um, people take a lot away from- from that fighter. What he accomplished is something that not many can do.
- 32:57 – 40:40
Mayweather exhibitions and MMA crossover fights: fixed-fight claims and reality
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you watch the New Year's fight, that thing that he did with, uh, Tenshin-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Yasukawa?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. A lot of people think that was a fixed fight. I think that was 120-pound fighter fighting the best ever.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it's just, there's... it wasn't a fixed fight. I don't know why people think it's a fixed fight. That guy fights at 126 pounds, I think.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think that's his weight class.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And you could definitely tell the size difference.
- JRJoe Rogan
Tiny.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Just like I could actually tell the size difference though when McGregor fought-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... Floyd, you know, I think, uh, both of Floyd's legs equaled one of McGregor's.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
But yeah, with that Tenshin, um, that fight, the first knockdown was legit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And I think, in my personal opinion, what happened, it wasn't fixed, you know, or fake. I believe that he got hit with that right hand and seeing that how strong and, and how... the defensive skills that, uh, Mayweather had and I think he said, "You know what? This could be a long-ass night." And then the next couple punches, he just kind of, like, went down because he's seeing what could happen. He knew which way that fight was going. That-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what you think?
- KPKelly Pavlik
I do. The first knockdown was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's go... so let's put... play that fight. Trying to find something that can... See if you can find the fight and play it. I feel like the first one clipped him on the temple. He hit him with a left hook on the temple, hit him with a right hand, but then he hit him with a left hook. The right hand, uh, and then he hit him afterwards as well as he's going down. But I think that left hand to the temple is what did the real damage and then, um, then there was a big right hand afterwards that dropped him. I just think he was out of his league.
- KPKelly Pavlik
He's out of his league.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like way, way out of his league.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Not that he took a dive, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... almost to the point of like he knew that that fight was not going any way the way that he thought it was.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, he looks... he was so smiley and relaxed. It was kind of funny. You know, he just sort of walked the dude down. He had a big old smile on his face. Like, look at him smiling.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm.
- 40:40 – 49:41
Bernard Hopkins fight: illness, injury, and how legacy gets complicated
- JRJoe Rogan
What was it like fighting Bernard?
- KPKelly Pavlik
(sighs) Oh. You know, uh, and I don't know if this is the sta- (laughs) stage I want to... Fighting Bernard was... It wa- it was, um, totally different than what I expected.
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd you expect?
- KPKelly Pavlik
I, I expected him to be tricky a- and sneaky and, and just, uh, very crafty and, and obviously experienced. Um, you know, I did jump up two weight classes to, to take that fight and, um... But at the same time, that was not a 80% Kelly Pavlik. And this is true and this is documented. Um, I have it in my phone and I was going to actually bring that out, but that fight I sparred, you know, three times for that, maybe four. The fourth time was with an arm brace and then I went into it and I never said anything 'cause I'm the type of person I don't want to have people think that I was making excuses. I love Bernard, I think he's a... One of the greatest of all time, greatest middleweights. But that was not that night. You know, I had came down, we had a-
- JRJoe Rogan
What's wrong? What was wrong?
- KPKelly Pavlik
I had bronchitis. I was sick, I was running a temp actually in the locker room. We had to go through with the commission, um, we almost took the inhaler for it but then we found out through the commission that you cannot take that 'cause it's a steroid. So we had to go to the nasal, um... Or not nasal, the pill, oral pill.Uh, we had a... I- in the locker room, I don't know if you ever heard of a guy, Thomas Hauser. He writes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
He used to write for The New York Times. He does a lot of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... big boxing books. He was in there and, and Hauser don't, uh, he's not one-sided with anybody. He's... Writes what he knows, what he sees, and that's the truth. And, um, he was in there when the commission came in. They were going through my prescription. You know, they were taking the temperature, uh, giving me the exam. And that's what happened. I... It was a lethargic fight wi- with, uh, of all people.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was wrong with your arm? You had a... You said you had a brace?
- KPKelly Pavlik
I had a bur- yeah, bur- bursitis. Bursitis.
- JRJoe Rogan
Bursitis- bursitis in your elbow?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. And, you know, that came into an issue. And we sparred. You know, like I said, it was a handful. It might have been more than three or four, but it wasn't a lot 'cause usually in training camp, you do three days a week for about... Eight-week camp for about six, six and a half weeks.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it was because of your elbow that you couldn't spar?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know, 'cause we didn't want to keep hitting it. And then I didn't like... Just the way I am, I didn't like having a brace on it or nothing, um, so that was an issue. And, and there was a lot of things that sometimes if you could go back and you wish you could do it over again, but there was a lot of other, um, things going on why we didn't postpone the fight. First of all, it sold out and, uh, the Youngstown people bought all the tickets. Um, we had the issue with the Paul Williams fight, you know, that it fell through, so I ca-... I just came off fighting Gary Lockett, who was really not a well-known name, a household name. So if I would have postponed that fight, the backlash on that would have been bad, really bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
And, you know, so there... It was more the ego thing that I think, and worried about what everybody was gonna think. Taking nothing away at all from... But that's w- where I wanted to tap into, taking nothing away from Bernard Hopkins. Unfortunately, against a guy like Bernard Hopkins that I had to have that happen to me is what sucks. And, and he was a tremendous fighter. I mean, he did things in there. A lot of times, I seen him making moves and I knew what he was doing, and I just couldn't pull the trigger on it. Um, and he was fast and he was strong. And then there was times that he just did some crafty things also that, you know, got to me and, and his body work in that fight slowed me down a lot. But it was just one of them fights where I could honestly say that that was not an 80% Kelly Palik. And I could be honest and say if I was 100%, I don't know if I would have won that fight. And I'll be honest about it. I'm not gonna be the guy that s- that comes there and says, "Well, if I was 100%, I would have knocked him out." No, it's Bernard Hopkins, you know? Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
When you think about your legacy and you think about looking back at your c- your career, those kind of fights where you had to take it when you were compromised, um, how do those factor in to you? Do those, those fuck with your head?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not in a real bad way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, but enough where you're like, "Ah, if I was 100%."
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. You know, I- I got invited to the International Boxing Hall of Fame over the summer, and it was cool as hell and- and to be there. And you start seeing the inductees and everything, and I start... You start breaking down your career. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... "Am I... Am I able to qualify for this?" You know, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... "Is so-and-so gonna get pissed off who didn't get in because I got in?" And I look at it, and I b- I break it down a couple ways. I say, "40-2 with 34 knockouts is a hell of a record." You know, I held the belts for over three years. Um, I beat a handful of guys that were legit when I beat them. And then I, then I look at the fight though, I fought Bernard Hopkins, and I got my ass whooped in that fight. There's no other way of putting it, you know, it's the truth. So how much did that damage, you know, uh, people remembering that? Nobody looks at the fact of the two-weight class jump-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... and then coming back down and defending against a, a very game Antonio Rubio. And then of course, the, the Martinez fight, which a lot of people, and it was documented and, and on HBO with the commentators, you know, the weight issue in that fight. But-
- 49:41 – 55:05
Why fighters retire (and return): family, fear, and traumatic brain injuries
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that is something that every fighter has to consider, like, when have they fought too much?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you make that decision?
- KPKelly Pavlik
When your heart... When you lose it in here, in, in that heart a little bit, it's a horrible hobby to have, especially at that high of a level.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know? Because you're not fighting guys that are getting off work at 3:00 o'clock and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... you know, you're fighting guys that are legit athletes and, and skilled professionals at fighting and, um, it's dangerous. Unfortunately, we've seen... Uh, and know when we're talking about this, uh, with me getting the itch earlier, there's a lot of things I take in consideration. Like, I'm, I'm really into it and I'm really debating on it and I'm hitting the gym, working boxing, then I see things like this Adonis Stevenson situation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
You know? And those are the things where I say, "I gotta sit back and talk to my-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Explain to people what happened.
- KPKelly Pavlik
He just... He got hit. It was a good fight. He's been fighting for years now, one of the most, uh, feared fighters also in boxing because-
- JRJoe Rogan
And he fought the guy we were talking about earlier.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah. Uh, I can't pronounce his name. Um, I don't want to chop it up. He-
- JRJoe Rogan
Pull up the, the Russian gentleman's name. We... Yeah. There's a way to say it. It's, uh...
- KPKelly Pavlik
B- uh, better be... bu-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
I see him all the time too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Adonis Stevenson.
- KPKelly Pavlik
I got that. Um, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
These Russian cats have some crazy ass names, man. (laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
They do, they do. I know, it's hard. You know, me being a, a guy involved in the sport and, and talking about it all the time too, how hard it is for me-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
... to get it down.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's so many badass Russians these days. Okay. It's G-
- KPKelly Pavlik
Vozdyk, Vozdyk.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's G-V-O-Z-D-Y-K, but it's Vozdyk.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't pronounce the G. Vozdyk.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Aleksander Vozdyk.
- 55:05 – 1:08:30
Post-career media and business: podcasting, Fight Companion ideas, and streaming economics
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, especially because you are busy now. And so what made you decide to do a podcast?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Actually, um, my buddy-
- JRJoe Rogan
I was excited when I heard you were doing that. I was like, "All right."
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Let's get into the podcast world."
- KPKelly Pavlik
I am. I'm looking, you know, I hear some of these guys, uh, commentating, and I say, "I think I could do that."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Um, after-
- JRJoe Rogan
You could do that.
- KPKelly Pavlik
After listening. And the podcast, we're kind of throwing it around. Um, I had... Like I said, I got a handful of investments going on, and I, I pick and choose on what I want to do. And the podcast started off, uh, "Hey, let's have fun. Let's throw this podcast on. We'll get some cheap equipment, you know, um, got a lot of followers on social media, so we'll do, like, the social media live, and then we'll also hook it to the YouTube." And we were doing it, and it started off for a little while there, um, with no advertisement. It was kind of lonely, you know? You're on-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
(laughs) Yeah. Just, just, you know, you're... If you feel like I'm talking into a mic and nobody's there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Um, and then it started taking... It, it's doing fairly well right now too.
- JRJoe Rogan
How many downloads you getting?
- KPKelly Pavlik
Man, right now, well, the, the social media is the biggest. We end up hitting, it reaches out after the first episode, you got 2,000, uh, people reached and maybe like 400 views. And then as the days go on and the shares go on, you start seeing it reaches out to over like 20 some thousand people, and then you see, you know, like, uh, 8,000 views. So, and that's on social media.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
We gotta... YouTube is the one I'm working for, you know, really trying to push. And right now sometimes we get up 113 views on there. And then sometimes I don't even want to mention how many views are on it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- KPKelly Pavlik
Uh, so w- again, it's a process with that also. I know that. I'm starting to learn that. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's about consistency.
- KPKelly Pavlik
It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's the most important thing. Keep-
- KPKelly Pavlik
But I get, I get out to these fights and people know it, you know, who I, who don't comment on the show because we do it where it's, it's live. The format of it is to have everybody involved because they like that. They get to ask questions, and we're pretty much faces in the phone reading the questions and answering it, and I think they like that. And it actually is kind of funny because we'll get some great guests on there. We had TJ Dillashaw. We had Mikey Garcia, Terence Crawford on. I think you could ha- I think you could bring back Joe Lewis and put him on there, and people don't care about that. They want their, their questions answered, you know, through the social media or through YouTube, and they kind of don't interact with the, the guests that you have on. So it's, it's weird. Um, I think the format, I like the format of it, but at the same time, I wish people would be more involved with the guests that we have on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- KPKelly Pavlik
But for the most part, it's, it's fun. It's different.
- JRJoe Rogan
But that kind of format is... well, boxing fans in particular, well, all... I should say just combat sports fans in particular, they love to comment on things.
- KPKelly Pavlik
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They love to get in on it. I mean, uh-
- KPKelly Pavlik
(laughs)
Episode duration: 2:35:58
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