JRE MMA Show #55 with Kelly Pavlik

Joe Rogan 0:01 Three, two... Youngstown in the house. How are you, brother?

Kelly Pavlik 0:07 Good. How are you doing?

Joe Rogan 0:08 Thanks for doing this, man. I appreciate it.

Kelly Pavlik 0:09 No, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 0:12 You're out here, um, workin' with Danny Garcia?

Kelly Pavlik 0:16 No, um-

Joe Rogan 0:16 No, Mikey- Mikey Garcia.

Kelly Pavlik 0:18 Mikey Garcia and, uh, Garcia Camp. Um, also I came out, you know, a couple things, uh, as we mentioned earlier, a buddy of mine, uh, Mark LaMicca throwin' some ideas around and kinda just taking a week out here in California to, you know, keep moving.

Joe Rogan 0:32 It's nice, right?

Kelly Pavlik 0:33 So-

Joe Rogan 0:33 It's nice-

Kelly Pavlik 0:34 It is nice.

Joe Rogan 0:34 ... out there.

Kelly Pavlik 0:34 Yeah. It was nice in, uh, Ohio, believe it or not, and then, uh, this morning they woke up to like three inches of snow. So now I'm out here enjoying and they got the snow.

Joe Rogan 0:44 Well, the thing about LA is no one's from here, so everybody grew up in a place like Youngstown or something like that. Like you were saying, you run into a bunch of Youngstown people out here.

Kelly Pavlik 0:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:51 Tony Hinchcliffe got super excited to see you.

Kelly Pavlik 0:53 Absolutely. And I'm-

Joe Rogan 0:54 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 0:54 You know, and that's-

Joe Rogan 0:55 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 0:55 ... what's weird about that. I'm excited to see him and he's excited to see me and it's, uh, it was really cool. Um, you know, I- I- I've heard of Tony and I knew of Tony, you know, before and everything. And then, uh, to finally be able to meet him and somebody from Youngstown that's doing, you know, great things, it was kinda cool. So...

Joe Rogan 1:11 Yeah, no. It was cool hanging out with you when we were in Columbus too.

Kelly Pavlik 1:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13 That was a fun time.

Kelly Pavlik 1:14 It was. There was good eatings too.

Joe Rogan 1:16 Yeah. What was the name of that place again?

Kelly Pavlik 1:18 You guys picked it, I believe.

Joe Rogan 1:19 I think it's- Italian Market, I think it was. Whose joint was that? Is that- It was your friend's friend of a friend, I don't remember the name. Matt Brown's friend, right? Yeah. I don't remember the name. Matthew Mortal? Yeah, it was-

Kelly Pavlik 1:27 Another good guy.

Joe Rogan 1:28 Yeah. No, he's a, he's a fucking scary dude. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:31 (laughs) Yeah. Right?

Joe Rogan 1:31 He's such a savage. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:33 I gotta tell you a funny story with him. We were at my gym and he came and did a seminar at my gym and, uh, it was... And my... I have just a fitness gym right now there. And he was going over and he was showing people when he kinda came in and I was showing like a little punch and a hook, and he started doing the, the elbow off the hook. Now, I'm a pretty big guy now since I retired and I'm, you know, and I'm working on losing the weight, but he hit me with that elbow on my arm and it, it just hurt. And it was slow motion. He wasn't throwing it hard. And I'm going, if, if this son of a bitch really wanted to turn that over, I wouldn't wanna get hit by it.

Joe Rogan 2:06 Yeah. Elbows are awful. Bones are awful. It's like, it always weirds me out that the UFC, uh, has little padding on the gloves, but there's no padding in your shins, no padding on your elbows, no padding-

Kelly Pavlik 2:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:19 ... on your knees. It's a terrible way to take a beating.

Kelly Pavlik 2:22 It is. And people get into the brutality of it.

Joe Rogan 2:24 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 2:25 Unfortunate, not 'cause I boxed, I think box is more brutal, the only reason is because if you get dropped in boxing, you got 10 seconds to get up. Your brain could be rattled in the first round and you could get dropped four more times in that fight, you got 36 minutes of fighting. Unfortunately, in MMA, yeah, they're hitting you with the knees, the elbows, and if you go down, they usually stop the fight.

Joe Rogan 2:45 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 2:45 Rightfully so, because somebody could come down with an atomic knee drop and-

Joe Rogan 2:49 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 2:49 ... you know-

Joe Rogan 2:49 That's not legal. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 2:50 (laughs) Yeah. I know, but I'm just saying it's, uh, or anything can happen in it, so...

Joe Rogan 2:54 When you were fighting, uh, MMA wasn't as big as it is now, but did you ever think about doing it?

Kelly Pavlik 3:00 No.

Joe Rogan 3:00 No?

Kelly Pavlik 3:00 And to be honest with you, no. Um, but I was always interested in it. I was. I was always interested in the martial arts. Um, actually that's how I got into boxing, was a young kid taking taekwondo and, and, uh, I don't know that's how you pronounce it, but-

Joe Rogan 3:14 (laughs) That is how you pronounce it.

Kelly Pavlik 3:16 ... yeah. Okay. And, um, you know, I got into it, but th- it was, to me, it was kinda like boring. I'm a young kid, you know, I was full of piss and vinegar and I wanted to actually get in and do something. And I played other sports, but, uh, you know, then after I retired a little bit, um, I kinda strayed away from everything in the fight game. And, um, and I started getting interested in jiu-jitsu and stuff like that and-

Joe Rogan 3:39 How old were you when you retired?

Kelly Pavlik 3:41 30.

Joe Rogan 3:41 30? That's young.

Kelly Pavlik 3:42 Yeah. Still am pretty young.

Joe Rogan 3:44 How old are you now?

Kelly Pavlik 3:45 36.

Joe Rogan 3:45 Yeah. You're still in the range.

Kelly Pavlik 3:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:48 You know? That's an effective range.

Kelly Pavlik 3:51 Well, that's why I've been, uh, working out and I, you know, I- I kinda slowed down on the power lifting a lot and been doing- getting flexible again.

Joe Rogan 3:59 So you haven't had a fight in six years. Do you ever get to itch?

Kelly Pavlik 4:02 That's why I- I'm saying I'm-

Joe Rogan 4:04 Are you getting the itch right now?

Kelly Pavlik 4:05 Yeah. Uh, I've-

Joe Rogan 4:06 Really?

Kelly Pavlik 4:06 Yeah. I've- I've been, um... Well, another reason with- why I came out and was talking with Mark and everything, but you know, I- I don't wanna lead nobody ever on either. You know?

Joe Rogan 4:17 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 4:17 This is something-

Joe Rogan 4:18 You're just thinking.

Kelly Pavlik 4:19 ... I'm- I'm- I'm really thinking about it and I'm working out loo- losing the weight, but at the same time, there's a- a lot of process behind that too. I would have to sit down with the family, um, just go over a lot of things, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 4:30 Are you doing any boxing these days?

Kelly Pavlik 4:32 I- I've been working out, just hitting the bag, pads-

Joe Rogan 4:34 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 4:34 ... stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 4:35 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 4:35 Um, you know, I'm still lifting, but nothing-

Joe Rogan 4:38 You're jacked, dude. Look at the size of your fucking arms.

Kelly Pavlik 4:40 I know. I was- I've been fighting-

Joe Rogan 4:41 You ain't fighting middleweight, son.

Kelly Pavlik 4:42 No. The- and- and cruiserweight is the-

Joe Rogan 4:45 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 4:45 ... the nice area right now. Um-

Joe Rogan 4:46 That's the range?

Kelly Pavlik 4:47 Yeah. Anybody but Usyk and, uh, I'm not fighting that-

Joe Rogan 4:50 That guy's scary-

Kelly Pavlik 4:51 ... monster.

Joe Rogan 4:51 ... as fuck.

Kelly Pavlik 4:52 Yeah. And I don't... You know, the thing is, everybody... I- I did, I mentioned this a couple weeks ago and the first thing that came out about it was, "He needs the money." So I can't winning for losing. Um, you know what I mean? Like, 'cause there's other things right now that we're talking about. I actually been in contact, believe it or not, with Dancing With the Stars and, uh-

Joe Rogan 5:10 Oh, Jesus.

Kelly Pavlik 5:11 So I'm- I'm- I'm having fun with it now, I guess. Don't make no jokes on that.

Joe Rogan 5:14 I'd rather take a fight. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 5:16 (laughs) I'd rather fight Usyk, believe me.

Joe Rogan 5:19 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 5:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:20 Dancing With The Stars is fucking-

Kelly Pavlik 5:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:21 ... hard work, man.

Kelly Pavlik 5:22 Talks. Uh, talks of it.

Joe Rogan 5:24 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 5:25 Um, which Mark- my buddy Mark's doing.

Joe Rogan 5:27 I've had a couple friends that have been on that.

Kelly Pavlik 5:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:29 And they said it's brutally hard work.

Kelly Pavlik 5:30 It is. That Virgil Ortiz, who was a fighter, been on it.

Joe Rogan 5:33 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 5:33 So that's where it's going why I don't want people also, the rumor mill starting that, "He's broke, he needs the money." 'Cause it's absolutely not the case. Um...

Joe Rogan 5:43 So you retired healthy.

Kelly Pavlik 5:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:44 You retired young.

Kelly Pavlik 5:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:46 And you set some money away.

Kelly Pavlik 5:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:48 But you still... Look, you were a world champion for a reason. You know, you had to- to become a real world champion, you have to have some crazy drive, some competitive fire inside you.

Kelly Pavlik 5:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:00 So-

Kelly Pavlik 6:00 There is. And it-

Joe Rogan 6:01 ... you know, embers.

Kelly Pavlik 6:01 ... a lot of people don't understand in any combat sport, combat's combat.

Joe Rogan 6:05 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 6:06 ... I'm, uh, not patting myself on the back. I don't know if it's even good to say, but, you know, com- combat world champion athletes and fighters, mentality wise, you're always gonna have that mentality, you know?

Joe Rogan 6:18 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 6:18 And my only reason why I'm even throwing this around, and I guess that's the right term to use because if nothing comes of it, I don't want the backlash on that either.

Joe Rogan 6:29 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 6:29 'Cause I'm still only 36, and I- I'm at that point where I got that small window still, you know, where I'm not 40.

Joe Rogan 6:35 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 6:36 I'm not 38. And, uh, you know, I- I've been healthy, uh, for, you know, four and a half years, and- and I've been working out and-

Joe Rogan 6:44 What made you decide to go powerlifting? Start with-

Kelly Pavlik 6:47 I know, tell me this. Just fucking show bitches what's up.

Joe Rogan 6:50 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 6:51 Yeah. (laughs) That's- that's another one.

Joe Rogan 6:53 Show them guns.

Kelly Pavlik 6:53 Exactly, right? I was tired. Think about it. I was so damn skinny, if I turned sideways and stuck my tongue out, I'd look like a zipper.

Joe Rogan 7:00 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 7:00 You know what I mean? Um, a- and- and being six foot two, 100... And making... Having to make a 160 pounds, even between fights you still had to maintain, you know, your weight. And it... I got tired of that. Uh-

Joe Rogan 7:10 What was your walking around weight?

Kelly Pavlik 7:12 I would walk around about 173.

Joe Rogan 7:14 That's not that bad.

Kelly Pavlik 7:14 No, it's not, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 7:15 For MMA, that's real light.

Kelly Pavlik 7:17 Yeah. And, you know, and then... Uh, but as I got older, yeah, it started getting a little more difficult to, you know, keep that, and I started getting up to, like, 175, 1... You know, almost 180. So now you're looking at a... And I'm still skinny at that point, so now you're looking at having to lose 20 more pounds again to get down at that age. And it came to a point, um, which caused a a lot of issues for me in, in one fight, with the Martinez fight, and, uh, after that, we had to jump up.

Joe Rogan 7:44 Mm. (smacks lips) Yeah, that point of diminishing returns, right? When you're-

Kelly Pavlik 7:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 7:48 ... cutting too much weight.

Kelly Pavlik 7:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:49 When you fought Jermaine Taylor, that was 160, right?

Kelly Pavlik 7:51 Yes.

Joe Rogan 7:52 Yeah, dude. That was one fight where I remember getting angry at Larry Merchant. 'Cause Larry Merchant is calling the fight. I'm like, he's not r... Uh, he's wasn't recognizing that you were tuning him up.

Kelly Pavlik 8:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:03 And you were hurting him. And you... It got... He... Like, he was, he was commenting on a ... Almost like it was a trend that he expected to see rather than what was actually happening.

Kelly Pavlik 8:14 Yeah. It was a lot of things about that fight. I love them guys because believe it or not, in my opinion, that was a great fight, and I seen that they had that fight in the top 10 middle weight, uh, one of the top 10 middle weight fights of all time, and that's kind of a cool thing. But also, you know, some of that commentating though, really made that fight, especially at the end, in my opinion, made that fight kinda what it was also, you know, besides the fact of me getting dropped and everything. But, um, you know, I didn't agree with the judging of it, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:38 Hm.

Kelly Pavlik 8:38 'Cause I still had me at head. I went back and watched it. I'm not one of those egotistical people either. Like, I like to really break down what happened in that fight, and I ... And if I lost a round, I would say I lost a round.

Joe Rogan 8:49 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 8:49 You know, I was hard on myself with that. I watched that fight now probably 10 times, and I don't see where they had Jermaine winning, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:57 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 8:58 I gave him one round and plus a 10A, so that's a total of three rounds. And, uh, I don't see how that happened.

Joe Rogan 9:05 Well, (sighs) you know, I mean, we've d- we've had this conversation 100 times in this podcast, but judging in boxing and judging in MMA, judging is just terrible.

Kelly Pavlik 9:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:13 It's just ter- It's one... It's sad. It doesn't make any sense. There's so many experts out there. There's so many really reliable people that you can call on that would do a great job of- of- of figuring what's going on in a fight. And for whatever reason-

Kelly Pavlik 9:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:25 ... they don't get those jobs.

Kelly Pavlik 9:27 I think they gotta start doing something soon in boxing with that.

Joe Rogan 9:30 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 9:31 They have to figure something out with the judging. Um-

Joe Rogan 9:33 You see the Charlo fight?

Kelly Pavlik 9:35 Yes. Yeah. And I ... There's a handful of people I had the argument with that actually thought Charlo lost. Um, I didn't think that he looked as good as he could've in that fight-

Joe Rogan 9:44 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 9:45 ... but I thought he won the fight, you know, um, 116-112. Uh, but I don't know what system they could try to break down for that a- or try to get to actually start making some of them fights fair, but boxing's doing fantastic the past two years. I mean, the numbers are crazy. You seen what Dazone, um, did with Canelo, and-

Joe Rogan 10:04 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 10:05 So it's- it's there. There's ev- The attention's at the sport, and the popularity of it's coming back, but what could eventually hurt it again is things like the- the judging of the fights-

Joe Rogan 10:15 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 10:15 ... and the outcomes.

Joe Rogan 10:16 Well, there's certain ones where you- you wanna, like ... You want a criminal investigation.

Kelly Pavlik 10:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:21 Like, uh, Tim Bradley, Manny Pacquiao. That was one where after that was over, I- I was like ... I was looking at the TV, I was looking to the side-

Kelly Pavlik 10:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:29 ... I was looking away. I was like, "What the fuck did I just see? What just happened here?"

Kelly Pavlik 10:36 That fight right there, I actually had to walk away with my head down. I ... That- that was probably one of the worst robberies that I've ever seen in boxing.

Joe Rogan 10:43 It was a horrible robbery.

Kelly Pavlik 10:44 I searched to give Tim Bradley two rounds. I gave him one ... Uh, I was trying to give him rounds to kinda, like, say, "How- how ... Where did you get this at?" In other words.

Joe Rogan 10:54 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 10:54 And I couldn't do it.

Joe Rogan 10:55 Yeah. I love Tim Bradley too, by the way.

Kelly Pavlik 10:57 Awesome guy.

Joe Rogan 10:58 Awesome, awesome fighter too. I mean, he's just all heart. I mean, that guy's ... He's amazing. But that just was a bad decision. And, you know, I think there was a ... There was a lady that was responsible for two really bad decisions. There was-

Kelly Pavlik 11:11 Byrd.

Joe Rogan 11:11 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 11:12 Natalya Byrd.

Joe Rogan 11:13 Was it her, or was it ... Was another one too. There was anoth- (laughs) Natalya Byrd, she does MMA too.

Kelly Pavlik 11:18 (clicks tongue) I wanna say, uh-

Joe Rogan 11:19 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 11:19 Yeah, Lata- Letterman's daughter, maybe?

Joe Rogan 11:21 Well, there was ... No, there was another lady who, uh, retired from doing it after that decision. It was, like, a big controversy. People were-

Kelly Pavlik 11:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:29 They ... Her- her score was so off, people were thinking she got paid off.

Kelly Pavlik 11:33 There's so many anymore though, it's hard to keep up with it.

Joe Rogan 11:35 Yeah. Well, the thing is, and- and people that are cynical or skeptical, do you know how much money is being bet on fights, especially a Manny Pacquiao fight? There's so much money.

Kelly Pavlik 11:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:45 And if someone like Pacquiao's a prohibitive favorite heading into a Tim Bradley fight, I mean, who knows? It could be four to one, five to one, six to one.

Kelly Pavlik 11:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:53 Somebody rolls up with a nice brown baggie filled with-

Kelly Pavlik 11:55 (laughs) And it's-

Joe Rogan 11:56 ... hundreds ... "Hey, look what we got in here." Here's $30,000. You never have-

Kelly Pavlik 12:01 I think there-

Joe Rogan 12:01 ... to report.

Kelly Pavlik 12:01 I think there's ... Yeah. There- there is more behind why that happens too, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 12:05 It has to be. That's always been a g- The idea that there's no bribery going on anymore-

Kelly Pavlik 12:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:09 ... is crazy.

Kelly Pavlik 12:10 I don't wanna say it, but I think I have-

Joe Rogan 12:12 I'm saying it.

Kelly Pavlik 12:12 Yeah, I think I have an idea. You know, I think it comes down to-... who, who's putting the show on.

Joe Rogan 12:17 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 12:18 And who's, who's in the pocket, kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 12:19 Well, Teddy Atlas was explaining it too when he was on the podcast. One of the things that he was saying was that they take these people out to dinner. Like, th- like, they're all in cahoots and friendly with each other and-

Kelly Pavlik 12:29 (sniffs)

Joe Rogan 12:29 ... if there's a certain result that the promoter would like to see-

Kelly Pavlik 12:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:34 ... these judges will lean towards that if they have a good relationship with that promoter.

Kelly Pavlik 12:39 You said it for me.

Joe Rogan 12:40 Yeah, that's what I did, it, it, like, Teddy laid it out.

Kelly Pavlik 12:43 And, um, I don't know. Yeah. It's, it's bad because, again, boxing is really coming back. It is. And the fights, you got three or four weight classes right now that's so interesting, but the bad part about it is you don't get interested in it or you don't get as excited anymore because you're afraid of the outcome of the fight.

Joe Rogan 13:00 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 13:00 You know?

Joe Rogan 13:01 I wasn't terribly upset at the Wilder-Fury decision, I wasn't terribly upset.

Kelly Pavlik 13:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:08 I thought, I thought, "You know what? I think Tyson Fury did enough to win." But when I look at it, I like when, I like when they score damage. Damage means a lot to me and when I look at that fight when, when Wilder hurt him, he hurt him twice and he hurt him real bad. I mean, I think that's worth a lot and I think he was always threatening, so I felt like (inhales sharply) I don't know if I would agree with a draw. I think it was a close decision win for Tyson Fury, but I didn't hate it.

Kelly Pavlik 13:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:43 I didn't hate it 'cause I think I'd like to see them fight again.

Kelly Pavlik 13:45 Absolutely. I mean, it was one of them fights where, yes, you're 100% right, that it could end in a draw and I think everybody would be kind of satisfied with that.

Joe Rogan 13:52 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 13:52 Um, unfortunately, with the, the count and knockdown, which I was so frustrated with the, the comments and, you know, I had to stay away from the social media and the, the boxing groups and, and things like that because-

Joe Rogan 14:02 Why is that?

Kelly Pavlik 14:03 Oh, just, you know, the, some of the, um, opinions of people, that's the way to put it, uh, "Oh, well, that f- that was a long count." And this-

Joe Rogan 14:13 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 14:13 ... and that. There's been thousands of fights in the last 10 years that I've very seldom heard anybody complain about a count. You know, that, that fight, um, they don't do a ten-second count in boxing. They go by the referee's count.

Joe Rogan 14:25 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 14:26 And for another thing where, uh, Wilder kind of hurt himself, referee tells you in the locker room before the fight and he explains it to you, s- go to your neutral corner. If you come out of your neutral corner, I will stop the count. Y- you mean, you know that, so the first thing I used to do when I dropped somebody is I ran my ass to that neutral corner, you know, so that referee can start counting. Um, I didn't see any issue with the, the knockdown. I even recorded it on my phone and if you did go by the ten-second count, Tyson Fury still beat it.

Joe Rogan 14:55 Really?

Kelly Pavlik 14:55 Yes. I have it. You know, I'd have to go through and find it. Um-

Joe Rogan 14:59 I thought I saw it on, uh, Instagram or one or the other. It was... I think it was on Wilder's, uh, Instagram where he had it where the count starts right when Fury drops.

Kelly Pavlik 15:08 I counted it as soon as his back... almost right before his back hits the ground until where he got up. And again, that's only a ten-second count-

Joe Rogan 15:15 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 15:15 ... without a referee even coming over to him.

Joe Rogan 15:17 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 15:17 You know?

Joe Rogan 15:17 Okay.

Kelly Pavlik 15:18 Um, (smacks lips) but, you know, as far as the, the fight itself, I gave, I gave Wilder, obviously, the two knockdowns. That's automatically four rounds. But I thought th- a- and I gave him one other round after that. I thought Tyson Fury controlled the action, you know, uh, ha- controlled the momentum of the fight. On the flip side of it, I think that Wilder actually could have made that a easier fight too. You know, Wilder actually has a hard time with his control. H- he don't know how to really work to the body. I don't wanna put it on the trainer, I don't know what the issue is with that, but he neglected that body a lot throughout the fight and I just thought that's why Tyson won most of those rounds. You know, he just controlled the action, the pace, and was kinda able to do what he wanted to. And I think that if Wilder went back with his trainer and watched the tape of that fight, they're gonna see a lot of opportunities that were missed in that fight.

Joe Rogan 16:07 Well, you know, what's crazy about Wilder is how little time he's actually been boxing.

Kelly Pavlik 16:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:11 I mean, it's really stunning. When he was on here, he told us that he made it to the Olympic team a year and a half into wor- learning boxing.

Kelly Pavlik 16:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:20 And he won a bronze medal.

Kelly Pavlik 16:21 In the heavyweight division though, you can kinda get away with that too.

Joe Rogan 16:24 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 16:24 You can. You know, most of your heavy... for... well, back then also, were big guys who came up. Usually most of them were football players or something like that-

Joe Rogan 16:32 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 16:32 ... and they kind of just got into the sport and still even to this day, you're talking about maybe three heavyweights that really could throw down, um, as where so many other guys are just big sloppy guys that come in.

Joe Rogan 16:42 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 16:42 You know?

Joe Rogan 16:43 Well, so what do we got now? You got Luis Ortiz, you got Fury, uh, Wilder-

Kelly Pavlik 16:48 Joshua.

Joe Rogan 16:49 ... Joshua. Who else? Joseph Parker.

Kelly Pavlik 16:52 Yeah, Parker.

Joe Rogan 16:53 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 16:53 You know, and I think right now, Parker is one of the guys that could actually still upset anybody in the heavyweight division-

Joe Rogan 16:58 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 16:58 ... especially with that style that he has.

Joe Rogan 17:00 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 17:00 You know? Um, so it's getting interesting again though, it is.

Joe Rogan 17:04 It's-

Kelly Pavlik 17:04 You know?

Joe Rogan 17:04 ... it's certainly... Well, I think with Wilder and Fury, that was one of the more interesting heavyweight title fights in a long time. And, and Wilder's so... it's so weird. He's so different. He weighs 209 pounds. He's skinny as a rail. He hits you, it looks like you got hit in the face with a missile.

Kelly Pavlik 17:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:21 I mean, it's crazy.

Kelly Pavlik 17:22 Well, 'cause that is a missile he's firing, you know?

Joe Rogan 17:23 Fucking crazy power that guy has, isn't it?

Kelly Pavlik 17:26 It is, and I try to explain to people on that too, "You don't have to be a big guy."

Joe Rogan 17:30 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 17:30 You know, you know, it's all about the leverage-

Joe Rogan 17:32 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 17:32 ... how you do torque, uh, where you ge- how you generate that power and, you know, he's just one of them guys that... That's o- one of the things where you either have it-

Joe Rogan 17:41 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 17:41 ... you got it in the cradle or you don't.

Joe Rogan 17:43 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 17:43 And that's another one that you try to explain. Even like in baseball.You're either a home run hitter or you're not, you know?

Joe Rogan 17:48 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 17:48 You could work on it a little bit and maybe knock one or two more home runs out, or knock a guy or two out more. But if you don't have it, you're not going to, unless you really go back over and find the time and patience to reprogram that fighter and change their whole style.

Joe Rogan 18:03 Yeah, it feels like one-punch knockout power, you either have or you don't.

Kelly Pavlik 18:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:07 And... But the, the guys who could put it on you and stop you, like Julio Cesar Chavez, never had really that one-punch knockout power-

Kelly Pavlik 18:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:15 ... but he fucked a lot of people up.

Kelly Pavlik 18:16 Yeah, and he had that body shot too. (whoosh sound) He didn't ha- he didn't need a, a knockout punch to the head.

Joe Rogan 18:20 Dude, he was so perfect. When he was in his prime, the way he would fight was constant bobbing, weaving-

Kelly Pavlik 18:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:27 ... moving in. And then once he put that pace on you-

Kelly Pavlik 18:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:30 ... it was just constant damage, constant punches, the volume, the volume, the accuracy, and the fact that he never got tired. He would just keep that pace up, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap. And you would see guys just start to wilt-

Kelly Pavlik 18:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:42 ... just backing up all the time, just wilt under that pressure.

Kelly Pavlik 18:44 Yep. And that's the, uh, that body attack that he had. How he invested into that body from the early rounds, people carry those punches. You know? They carry that into the fifth and sixth round.

Joe Rogan 18:54 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 18:55 And it was brutal. You know? I couldn't imagine, uh, fighting... I fought some tough guys, but I was glad, you know, being a tall guy, that nobody ever went to the body like that, against me.

Joe Rogan 19:03 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 19:03 I woulda hated that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:05 It's a, it's a fucking rough way to make a living, bro.

Kelly Pavlik 19:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:08 There is... Chavez in his prime, goddamn, he was good. Woo! He was so good. I mean, it's just constant movement too, constant-

Kelly Pavlik 19:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:17 ... cutting angles, and the fucking pressure.

Kelly Pavlik 19:21 Another one like him was Duran too.

Joe Rogan 19:23 That's Roger Mayweather, right?

Kelly Pavlik 19:24 Yes.

Joe Rogan 19:24 Yeah. The Black Mamba. Yeah, people forgot about Roger.

Kelly Pavlik 19:29 Yeah, he just systematically broke you down-

Joe Rogan 19:31 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 19:31 ... Chavez.

Joe Rogan 19:32 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 19:33 Very tactical and, and, and textbook. He didn't make many mistakes. He wasn't flashy. He wasn't overly fast. He wasn't overly powerful. But he just broke you down the right way and threw the right punches.

Joe Rogan 19:44 Yeah. He... That's what, that's the best way to put it, threw the right punches. He was just relentless.

Kelly Pavlik 19:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:49 And he was constantly moving forward, constant pressure. Goddamn, he was good.

Kelly Pavlik 19:55 Yep. And you know, uh, little Greg Halgan.

Joe Rogan 19:57 Oh-

Kelly Pavlik 19:57 Tom-

Joe Rogan 19:57 Remember that when Greg Halgan said he fought a bunch of Tijuana taxi drivers and he beat the shit out of Greg Halgan? (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 20:02 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:03 It was those left hooks to the body. They're just like-

Kelly Pavlik 20:05 Those are some tough taxi drivers.

Joe Rogan 20:06 Young fighters, man. You wanna, like, emulate a guy who just fought with perfect technique. This is the guy.

Kelly Pavlik 20:13 Well, you know, that comes down to another thing that I was breaking down. I, actually, I touched on it on my show a lot. And, uh, a lot of people get mixed up and confused on the fact of footwork with people. And some of the guys that had the best footwork in boxing were not flashy guys with the footwork, or even like Mikey Garcia now, or like, uh, a Bernard Hopkins is another one. But you had guys... Pernell Whitaker, I know I'm gonna probably get beat up on this, he, he, he had decent footwork. What I mean by that is because, yeah, he'd make you miss, but Pernell Whitaker, a lot of times, put himself out of range by moving like that.

Joe Rogan 20:49 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 20:49 You know? He'd make that move or he'd do it too much, and then he wasn't there to counter. So what good did it do? Uh, you get guys like Chavez or Duran, or guys like Mikey Garcia now, they take that one little step, inches and angles, they take that one step and they're right in position for that punch. They take the opposite step to suffocate your punch, you know, and throw you off. They spin you around. You know? That's where footwork comes in. And Chavez was great at that.

Joe Rogan 21:14 Yeah. Um, he was always in range.

Kelly Pavlik 21:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:17 He was always in range. He was never, never running away. And... Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 21:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:21 And his, like... You know? Uh, the guy who does it the best today about cutting angles and being right in front of you and can't hit him is Lomachenko. (laughs) I mean, poof. I mean, Lomachenko stands right in front of you and then he's not.

Kelly Pavlik 21:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:34 And then he's over here and then he's punching you in the face. TJ Dillashaw, who's a UFC bantamweight champion, said he sparred with him and he said the first round was like, you know, Lomachenko is just feeling him up, just figuring him out. And you know, he's like, "Wow, I'm kind of hanging in there with this guy."

Kelly Pavlik 21:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:49 And then his dad yelled something in Russian. And then the second round, Lomachenko is just dancing around him-

Kelly Pavlik 21:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:55 ... stepping to the side, touching him in the face. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 21:57 And unfortunately, that was the only round they put on YouTube too. You know what I mean? Um, yeah, I seen that. You know, the thing about Lomachenko is this, uh... And, and I tell people also, like, Floyd Mayweather was, is a unbelievable defensive fighter.

Joe Rogan 22:10 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 22:10 But Floyd was really good on drawing you in, you know, and kind of countering off that. His defense and his reflexes were amazing, but he kind of lured you in a little bit, made you mismake- made you make a mistake, and then he would counter you.

Joe Rogan 22:22 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 22:22 Lomachenko, on the other hand, is a guy, you could throw a punch and that punch could be in mid-air, and he's spinning and he's already behind you.

Joe Rogan 22:29 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 22:29 He is, uh... The athleticism is astonishing. I, I have not seen it. Uh, granted, can he lose? Absolutely, it's boxing. And if you get one of them rugged guys that are just gonna come in and say, "You know what? Screw it. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna get hit, but I'm gonna hit him." That may be a type of fighter that beats Lomachenko.

Joe Rogan 22:48 Well, w- who was it that, what was it, the Mexican guy who beat him, uh, in one of his first fights?

Kelly Pavlik 22:54 Oh, uh-

Joe Rogan 22:56 Solis?

Kelly Pavlik 22:56 Uh, Salido.

Joe Rogan 22:57 Salido.

Kelly Pavlik 22:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:58 Right, right, right. Yeah, that was the f- kind of fight that he fought.

Kelly Pavlik 23:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:02 Just dirty, got on top of him.

Kelly Pavlik 23:04 But you gotta understand on that point too, that was Lomachenko's second pro fight.

Joe Rogan 23:07 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 23:08 And again-

Joe Rogan 23:09 That's a real veteran.

Kelly Pavlik 23:10 Uh, yeah, a guy who's been there and done it and seen it. And that's the argument. And it's hard to explain, again, and that was another argument on these, uh, that I get a little frustrated reading. A second pro fight, usually in boxing, though, it goes like, the first year, you're up four or six. Second year you, maybe you start getting up to eight. But you get a good amount of fights under your belt before you start getting into the 10 rounds and 12 rounds. Okay? Um, you're talking about a kid coming out of the amateurs fighting three three-minute rounds or four two-minute rounds, depending on whatever tournament or international tournament it is. And he's going right into a twelve, twelve-round fight.I know my- myself coming up, and the process that Top Rank brought me up, which was a- a great process too, they had... They picked the fights and they made sure the fights that they picked for me were the correct fights. And they groomed me the right way, you know, by rounds and everything else. And I know just jumping from six to eight, the difference in that, you know, let alone being a kid and you're going into your second pro fight and you're fighting a 12-round fight. So if he lost that fight, which he came back and he made it a really close fight, I would have to tip my hat to him just on the fact that he was able to go 12 rounds.

Joe Rogan 24:22 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 24:23 You know? Um, people take a lot away from- from that fighter. What he accomplished is something that not many can do.

Joe Rogan 24:30 Well, it's crazy. I mean, he had a second pro title at what? How many fights in?

Kelly Pavlik 24:36 Yeah. The- the second fight was for the world title, then he won the world title in his third pro fight.

Joe Rogan 24:40 Yeah. That's insane. And then but, uh, he's had more than one per- p... world title, right?

Kelly Pavlik 24:45 Mm-hmm. Yes. He- he's won, I think, three different weight classes.

Joe Rogan 24:48 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 24:49 But-

Joe Rogan 24:49 But his second one was something insa- some insanely short see, pull up his record.

Kelly Pavlik 24:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:53 Lomachenko?

Kelly Pavlik 24:54 I believe, if I'm right-

Joe Rogan 24:55 Oh, okay. I looked this up. This is his first fight was. What's that? This is his first fight was for the international featherweight title. That was against Salido? Ramirez. He said- Okay. He lost against Salido for the vacant WBO featherweight title. Oh, okay. Yeah. So the other... What was the first title? Uh, international featherweight title, WBO. ƒwcs.

Kelly Pavlik 25:11 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:11 That's not a real... That's not like a world title. Yeah. There's a... They have a bunch of weird titles, right? Like international title, continental title.

Kelly Pavlik 25:18 You're- you're assaulting me. I had the WBO.

Joe Rogan 25:19 Oh, there you go.

Kelly Pavlik 25:20 I had the WBO.

Joe Rogan 25:21 You were the world champion, motherfucker.

Kelly Pavlik 25:22 Yeah, but I... No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:23 But you had all of it. You were unified.

Kelly Pavlik 25:25 Well, should have been by all rights.

Joe Rogan 25:28 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 25:28 But Taylor vacated too.

Joe Rogan 25:30 Oh, that's right.

Kelly Pavlik 25:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:31 That's right.

Kelly Pavlik 25:31 But, you know, that's why I get mad and that's for another big argument in boxing-

Joe Rogan 25:34 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 25:34 ... how you break that down between the lineal-

Joe Rogan 25:36 Let me see that. Put that back up.

Kelly Pavlik 25:37 ... the lineal and, uh, unanimous. You know, it had the ring, the WBO, and-

Joe Rogan 25:42 Scroll- scroll up so we see his whole record. So what was his, uh... Okay, so his second world title was when? Retained, retained, won. Okay. One, two, three, four, five, six fights in. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 25:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:57 He's in his second... He's, um, he... That's when he- he- he wins his second title. Six fights in, he wins a junior lightweight title. That's insane.

Kelly Pavlik 26:05 Yeah. The international, okay, that wasn't... Th- the first one wasn't a world title fight. It was... But the second one was the WBO world title fight. And-

Joe Rogan 26:12 Eleven fights in, he wins his third world title. What in the fuck? (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 26:16 (laughs) I believe now there was, at one point, it was seven world champions in just that short period of fights. I believe it's around eight now, eight world champions he's fought in just that short period. Uh, three different weight classes.

Joe Rogan 26:31 I think when he fought Rigondeaux, you really got a chance to see how he handles a real world-class, you know, Cuban amateur system-trained, top-of-the-food-chain boxer, and he just put it to that dude.

Kelly Pavlik 26:48 That was the fight that actually really sold me on Lomachen-

Joe Rogan 26:52 Lomachenko.

Kelly Pavlik 26:52 ... Lomachenko.

Joe Rogan 26:52 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 26:52 'Cause I thought for a fact that that was going to be a chess match because of the- the boxing ability from Rigondeaux. Their styles were very similar-

Joe Rogan 27:00 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 27:00 ... and I thought that, you know, I was like, "It's gonna be a boring fight for the first, like, four rounds," which I still would have liked because I like watching that type of fights, you know?

Joe Rogan 27:07 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 27:08 And, um, I see... I go in there and I'm expecting this fight, you know, the- the amateur background of both guys, uh, the... How talented the guys are and the skill level of both guys. And then next thing I know, I'm two or three rounds into it and I'm going, "He's playing with Rigondeaux."

Joe Rogan 27:23 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 27:24 "Playing with him." I'm going, "How?" That's the fight that really sold me on Lomachenko that he's that good.

Joe Rogan 27:30 My man Vinny Pazienza called that. Not Vinny Pazienza the boxer, Vinnie Paz the rapper. This guy, Jedi Mind Tricks. He called it. He was taking, he was taking bets on Instagram. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 27:40 Yeah. Geez.

Joe Rogan 27:40 He was saying-

Kelly Pavlik 27:41 He called it that early too? Wow.

Joe Rogan 27:42 Yes. He was taking bets on Instagram if he thought Rigondeaux has anything for him.

Kelly Pavlik 27:46 Wow.

Joe Rogan 27:46 He's like, uh, "Put... Find- find me in the DMs," and he goes, "Let's bet."

Kelly Pavlik 27:50 Yep. I, uh, I- I took Lomachenko in that fight, but I thought it was gonna be a close fight. A- a really close fight, and I thought Lomachenko was gonna pull ahead in the later rounds, you know, and win that fight. So that's why it really surprised me, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:03 Well, it was a stunning display of talent. He's such a weird guy too, because, uh, his background, you- you know the story where his father took him out of boxing and made him do traditional Russian dancing-

Kelly Pavlik 28:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:15 ... for several years and just made him learn that for footwork. It seems like his dad was just a mastermind architect of a champion.

Kelly Pavlik 28:23 Yeah, you probably know more on this than I would. Didn't he also have a martial art background?

Joe Rogan 28:28 (sucks teeth)

Kelly Pavlik 28:28 I heard.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Uh, he definitely can do martial arts techniques. I've seen it, but I don't know what-

Kelly Pavlik 28:33 I thought I- I- I may have heard-

Joe Rogan 28:34 See if he had a martial arts background. Maybe.

Kelly Pavlik 28:36 Yeah, I-

Joe Rogan 28:36 I don't know. That makes sense. He's, uh... His footwork though is so extraordinary. And if that really is that dancing background, like learning the- the footwork and the-

Kelly Pavlik 28:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:46 ... the way he- he's so agile with the stepping of his feet, it's like, I think a lot of people are going to learn and mirror that.

Kelly Pavlik 28:53 Yeah, his training regimen is pretty brutal also. I got a buddy, uh, Roger Romo, um, a good friend of mine. He's actually... He was working for a little while there up until the last fight. He was a strength and conditioning coach with Cecilio Flores, who was mine when I was in Oxnard training, and they said it was just crazy the- the hours that he puts in, how he trains, how hard he trains, and some of the drills that he does. You know, I'm looking at them and going, "I could use these." Not for me, (laughs) but I can use them for some of the athletes that I got now.

Joe Rogan 29:21 Yeah, he's, um, he's definitely something special. And, you know, you get those guys and it's just... It's kind of a shame that he's a little too small for Terence Crawford, you know?

Kelly Pavlik 29:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:31 I mean, I really would love to see those two fight, but it seems like Crawford's just a little bit too heavy for him.

Kelly Pavlik 29:38 I agree, but that's a... You know, and that's another touchy subject, uh, 'cause I kind of agree with you, but I also go back because I'm always trying to really break down and- and nitpick. I look at guys like Manny Pacquiao.

Joe Rogan 29:50 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 29:50 Who's... Who came from, I believe-... 112 or something like that-

Joe Rogan 29:54 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 29:54 ... and went up all the way to junior middleweight.

Joe Rogan 29:56 Which is crazy.

Kelly Pavlik 29:57 Yeah. He's small, shorter than, than Lomachenko-

Joe Rogan 30:00 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 30:00 And he, other than his calves (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 30:02 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 30:03 ... I, I don't think, uh, anything else is much bigger than Lomachenko on his body and he was able to do it.

Joe Rogan 30:08 And what the fuck is going on with his calves?

Kelly Pavlik 30:10 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 30:11 It's like he's keeping hams in them.

Kelly Pavlik 30:12 I don't know what he does. I, you know, I wish I knew the secret to that because I could use it, so, uh-

Joe Rogan 30:16 Get, get that secret to Jon Jones. This article says that his mother was actually a martial, or still is a martial artist. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Hm. Gymnast to martial artist. Well, it makes sense. And then boxer. Yeah, man, footwork, the way he does it is just, it's something to watch, man. It's just, the, the, the ability to, to move and also to anticipate the other fighter's movements. It's like, especially earlier in his career, it's like he was fighting guys that just, they seemed so crude in comparison to his approach.

Kelly Pavlik 30:45 Yeah, and you know what's even more crazy about it is being the opponent because usually you go into a fight and you break down film and you're, you're going over the film and you got a good idea of what he does right, what he does wrong and, and what you might want, have to do. Lomachenko, it's hard to pick up where he's gonna go. He, he... different angles. So you can't, you can't go, "Well, you know what? After he throws the, the right hand, he likes to move over to the left." Because he does it one time and then the next time, he's totally somewhere opposite.

Joe Rogan 31:12 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 31:12 You know what I mean? And yeah, the angles, it's really almost impossible to break film down on him. You know, like this last fight with this Pedrazao, everybody's going, "That was the blueprint." (laughs) And I'm going, "No, no, it wasn't." You know, he, uh... and they're saying it was a closer fight than, you know, people expected. I go, "Why? 'Cause he finally got hit with more than 11 punches in a fight?"

Joe Rogan 31:30 Oh, that's him, uh, doing some, uh, sambo, I believe is- Yeah, I guess it's... Yeah, he's, uh, trained it when he was younger- Greco-Roman. ... as a kid. Yeah, yeah, he's, he's slamming kids, that's right. Well, you know what, man? Uh, I believe in cross-training and I think that there's certainly some skills that would make you better at different martial arts and, uh, I feel like if you have the ability to wrestle guys and, and move guys' bodies around like that you would get from something like sambo, I just feel like as a, uh, an elite boxer, having that extra strength, that extra ability to move your core that way, I think that would be beneficial.

Kelly Pavlik 32:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:07 I mean, uh, the thing is no world class boxer has the time to also be doing judo and also be doing wrestling. You just don't have the time.

Kelly Pavlik 32:15 Nope, and being in combat sports, even I know that as far as... I'm, I'm not involved in MMA, but I know that. You know, these guys, they have to, uh, perfect three or four as much time in, in a short period of time.

Joe Rogan 32:27 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 32:27 You know, I imagine... I think Matt was telling me, you would know more, like sometimes it's two days of one, two days of the next-

Joe Rogan 32:34 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 32:34 ... um, trying to fit that in. Yeah, it's hard. You cannot, especially in boxing, the sweet science where it's just hands, but you got people that's all they do all day long.

Joe Rogan 32:43 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 32:43 That's why I say it's so unfair when an MMA guy goes in and fights a Mayweather because Mayweather, he perfected that.

Joe Rogan 32:50 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 32:50 And you got to use just that style of boxing. I- it's gonna be almost impossible to beat a boxer, a, a world champion boxer.

Joe Rogan 32:57 Did you watch the New Year's fight, that thing that he did with, uh, Tenshin-

Kelly Pavlik 33:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:00 ... Yasukawa?

Kelly Pavlik 33:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:01 Yeah. A lot of people think that was a fixed fight. I think that was 120-pound fighter fighting the best ever.

Kelly Pavlik 33:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:08 I mean, it's just, there's... it wasn't a fixed fight. I don't know why people think it's a fixed fight. That guy fights at 126 pounds, I think.

Kelly Pavlik 33:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:16 I think that's his weight class.

Kelly Pavlik 33:17 And you could definitely tell the size difference.

Joe Rogan 33:19 Tiny.

Kelly Pavlik 33:19 Just like I could actually tell the size difference though when McGregor fought-

Joe Rogan 33:22 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 33:23 ... Floyd, you know, I think, uh, both of Floyd's legs equaled one of McGregor's.

Joe Rogan 33:27 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 33:27 But yeah, with that Tenshin, um, that fight, the first knockdown was legit.

Joe Rogan 33:32 Yes.

Kelly Pavlik 33:32 And I think, in my personal opinion, what happened, it wasn't fixed, you know, or fake. I believe that he got hit with that right hand and seeing that how strong and, and how... the defensive skills that, uh, Mayweather had and I think he said, "You know what? This could be a long-ass night." And then the next couple punches, he just kind of, like, went down because he's seeing what could happen. He knew which way that fight was going. That-

Joe Rogan 33:52 Really?

Kelly Pavlik 33:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:53 That's what you think?

Kelly Pavlik 33:54 I do. The first knockdown was-

Joe Rogan 33:55 Let's go... so let's put... play that fight. Trying to find something that can... See if you can find the fight and play it. I feel like the first one clipped him on the temple. He hit him with a left hook on the temple, hit him with a right hand, but then he hit him with a left hook. The right hand, uh, and then he hit him afterwards as well as he's going down. But I think that left hand to the temple is what did the real damage and then, um, then there was a big right hand afterwards that dropped him. I just think he was out of his league.

Kelly Pavlik 34:20 He's out of his league.

Joe Rogan 34:20 Like way, way out of his league.

Kelly Pavlik 34:22 Not that he took a dive, but-

Joe Rogan 34:23 No.

Kelly Pavlik 34:23 ... almost to the point of like he knew that that fight was not going any way the way that he thought it was.

Joe Rogan 34:28 I mean, he looks... he was so smiley and relaxed. It was kind of funny. You know, he just sort of walked the dude down. He had a big old smile on his face. Like, look at him smiling.

Kelly Pavlik 34:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:37 When was the last time you saw... And he's so much bigger-

Kelly Pavlik 34:40 When did you see him fight like that?

Joe Rogan 34:41 ... than this kid, right. Yeah, he's fighting like it's a joke. Like, look at him. He's so much bigger than this kid. What's really funny is if they let this kid kick, he would fuck Floyd up. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 34:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:50 If they let him kick-

Kelly Pavlik 34:51 But Floyd made it look so dominant. I didn't even know on that part, but then again that kid, his kicks.

Joe Rogan 34:56 That kid would have kicked Floyd's legs out from under him in seconds. Oh, wait, you went too far there. See, he, he got up right there. Boom. See, he hit him with a left hook and he stumbled and then he hit him with a right hand behind it and I just think he's too little. He's just a... he's a very small guy and for him... I mean, and Floyd's not a big guy. This kid is tiny. I mean, I think he's fought as light as 121 pounds and I think sometimes he fights at, like, 126.

Kelly Pavlik 35:25 Yeah, I mean, I think you can see right there.

Joe Rogan 35:27 Like right there.

Kelly Pavlik 35:28 Sometimes in a fight, a lot of times in a fight, the whole issue is you get hit with that and you're fighting and somebody taps you with a certain punch, your brain, you'd be surprised how fast it works, you know, and all the things that go through that mind. And-

Joe Rogan 35:41 Right here, boom. That's some shit.

Kelly Pavlik 35:42 Yes, that was... Yep. And I think at that, that moment right there, he just knew going in. You could feel, just when somebody hits you on the arm or the shoulder, you know, the... how, how much power they have and, uh...Yeah, I think he's just trying to... After that he knew that was going to be a long night.

Joe Rogan 35:58 It's so crazy they paid him $9 million for this. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 36:01 Must be nice.

Joe Rogan 36:04 That... Yeah, I mean, fuck.

Kelly Pavlik 36:06 There was a lot of people I seen going, uh, "He, he deserves to give some of these prospects, uh, a chance now. You know, he should be fighting these guys instead of doing this. These guys ain't boxers," blah, blah, blah. And my take on that also is the man went 40... 49-50 and 0.

Joe Rogan 36:23 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 36:23 He fought almost everybody in the sport and even if you wanted to say they were past their prime, (smacks lips) some of them may have been a little bit, he still went in there and dominated them and beat them.

Joe Rogan 36:32 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 36:32 This guy, in my opinion, if he wanted to fight defensive backs from the NFL, he has all the right in the world. I don't think that he owes the sport anything.

Joe Rogan 36:40 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 36:40 I think, actually, it's the other way around. The amount of money that he has brought to the sport, the attention that he brought to it. So if he wants to go around and do these sideshows, let him. You know, I mean, what do you want him to do, fight prospects till he's 51 years old?

Joe Rogan 36:53 I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. It's crazy.

Kelly Pavlik 36:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:56 The idea that they... They want to see him sacrificed.

Kelly Pavlik 36:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:59 They want to see him get beat, that's what they want.

Kelly Pavlik 37:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:01 They want to see him finally fight someone who's younger and faster and hungrier-

Kelly Pavlik 37:05 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 37:05 ... who's more active. Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 37:06 And what will happen is that he will lose.

Joe Rogan 37:08 Yeah, that's what they want.

Kelly Pavlik 37:08 And I think Mayweather is smarter than that, you know.

Joe Rogan 37:10 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 37:11 He wants to go out and keep that... his status and, and, and the, the record that he built up and that résumé that he has and go out like that.

Joe Rogan 37:20 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 37:20 You know?

Joe Rogan 37:21 Well, they're talking about him fighting Khabib Nurmagomedov, who's the UFC-

Kelly Pavlik 37:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:24 ... 155-pound champion. But Khabib's not really a boxer.

Kelly Pavlik 37:27 Yeah, I just wanted to say but boxing rules?

Joe Rogan 37:29 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 37:29 Oh, uh, he... That would be a-

Joe Rogan 37:31 Same thing.

Kelly Pavlik 37:31 Yeah. Khabib's a-

Joe Rogan 37:33 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 37:33 ... takedown, ground-type guy.

Joe Rogan 37:34 Yeah, exactly. It would be the same kind of fight as the Conor fight. The only difference is I don't think Khabib would get as tired as Conor would.

Kelly Pavlik 37:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:40 I don't, I don't think, uh... He's, he's definitely got better endurance.

Kelly Pavlik 37:45 I think one of the only few in, in there right now that would be a good fight would be one of the Diaz brothers, as far as striking.

Joe Rogan 37:51 That would be interesting. But they would... He would box her face off.

Kelly Pavlik 37:53 No, he's still... I still think that he would win that.

Joe Rogan 37:55 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 37:56 But I'm just saying, as far as, you know, standup and letting the hands go, I think those are one of the, one of the two better ones in the MMA, in the UFC.

Joe Rogan 38:03 Yeah, I mean, that guy's... He's got all the right in the world to just keep fighting freak shows. (cries) Have fun, man. You're, you're Floyd Mayweather.

Kelly Pavlik 38:11 And, you know, the only thing is, you know, if Father Time shows up-

Joe Rogan 38:14 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 38:14 ... you know, he's getting to that age where you might get one of them guys and...

Joe Rogan 38:17 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 38:18 So, I mean if he's having fun-

Joe Rogan 38:20 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 38:20 ... do it, but if you go and get beat by one of them guys, that could change the whole outlook of a career.

Joe Rogan 38:24 Well, it's interesting how guys who are really good defensively, you know, they're not just really good longer, because they have such good technique, but also they've taken less damage during their careers, so that they're more durable as they get older as well. Like you definitely saw that with Bernard.

Kelly Pavlik 38:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:39 Like Bernard, up until the Joe Smith fight, I mean Joe Smith was the first guy to really put it on him like that and knock him out of the ring and... It was hard to see, it was hard to see that they, they had that ring set up too where he fell and landed on his fucking head.

Kelly Pavlik 38:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:51 Like Jesus Christ.

Kelly Pavlik 38:53 You know, I don't know if it was so much the ring. I just think it was an awkward way that he went out of them ropes-

Joe Rogan 38:57 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 38:57 ... in a way. 'Cause he got hurt by that punch.

Joe Rogan 39:00 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 39:00 So... And the legs buckled and when the legs buckle like that, they can put him in that awkward position for him to slide out, you know, with the ring.

Joe Rogan 39:08 Yeah, his ass was headed out and then-

Kelly Pavlik 39:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:10 ... he got clipped again, went right through. But I mean, it just sucks that there's nothing to protect the fighters if, if they fall out like that.

Kelly Pavlik 39:17 Mm-hmm. No.

Joe Rogan 39:17 There's no padding, there's no, no tables, no nothing. Nothing to break your fall, no one there for him.

Kelly Pavlik 39:21 You just got to hope one of the ringside judges or, or, uh, commentators are there to...

Joe Rogan 39:26 That's crazy.

Kelly Pavlik 39:27 And you got guys that are 80 years old. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:29 Yeah, but-

Kelly Pavlik 39:29 Trying to push a 200-pound man back in the ring.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Yeah, they're not going to get clipped like that and wind up... Somebody falling on them. Um, but Bernard was able to keep his skill very late in life. I mean, deep into his 40s, almost at 50 years old, was still world-class, which is really crazy.

Kelly Pavlik 39:46 That is, um... You got a handful of guys out there that could do that and, to be honest, you know, but he kept himself in good shape in between fights.

Joe Rogan 39:54 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 39:54 And he did what he was supposed to do and some guys... You know, you get some guys out there, uh, a good friend of mine, my trainer, Robert Garcia retired at 29. Um, a Youngstown guy, Mancini retired young and came back a couple years later, but it was only for one fight. Um, some guys-

Joe Rogan 40:11 Who did come... Who did Mancini come back against?

Kelly Pavlik 40:13 Greg Halton.

Joe Rogan 40:13 Oh, that's right.

Kelly Pavlik 40:15 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:15 That's right. I forgot about that fight.

Kelly Pavlik 40:16 Yep. And, uh, some of them, you know... Some guys, they go in and do it and it's, it's fun and then it, it becomes a career and job and, and financial security, you know, the way pe- a lot of fighters look at it. And then you get some guys like Floyd, Manny Pacquiao, uh, Bernard Hopkins who just love the sport, you know, that much that- that's they don't know anything else outside of it. So...

Joe Rogan 40:40 What was it like fighting Bernard?

Kelly Pavlik 40:43 (sighs) Oh. You know, uh, and I don't know if this is the sta- (laughs) stage I want to... Fighting Bernard was... It wa- it was, um, totally different than what I expected.

Joe Rogan 40:53 What'd you expect?

Kelly Pavlik 40:54 I, I expected him to be tricky a- and sneaky and, and just, uh, very crafty and, and obviously experienced. Um, you know, I did jump up two weight classes to, to take that fight and, um... But at the same time, that was not a 80% Kelly Pavlik. And this is true and this is documented. Um, I have it in my phone and I was going to actually bring that out, but that fight I sparred, you know, three times for that, maybe four. The fourth time was with an arm brace and then I went into it and I never said anything 'cause I'm the type of person I don't want to have people think that I was making excuses. I love Bernard, I think he's a... One of the greatest of all time, greatest middleweights. But that was not that night. You know, I had came down, we had a-

Joe Rogan 41:41 What's wrong? What was wrong?

Kelly Pavlik 41:42 I had bronchitis. I was sick, I was running a temp actually in the locker room. We had to go through with the commission, um, we almost took the inhaler for it but then we found out through the commission that you cannot take that 'cause it's a steroid. So we had to go to the nasal, um... Or not nasal, the pill, oral pill.Uh, we had a... I- in the locker room, I don't know if you ever heard of a guy, Thomas Hauser. He writes.

Joe Rogan 42:06 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 42:06 He used to write for The New York Times. He does a lot of-

Joe Rogan 42:08 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 42:08 ... big boxing books. He was in there and, and Hauser don't, uh, he's not one-sided with anybody. He's... Writes what he knows, what he sees, and that's the truth. And, um, he was in there when the commission came in. They were going through my prescription. You know, they were taking the temperature, uh, giving me the exam. And that's what happened. I... It was a lethargic fight wi- with, uh, of all people.

Joe Rogan 42:32 What was wrong with your arm? You had a... You said you had a brace?

Kelly Pavlik 42:34 I had a bur- yeah, bur- bursitis. Bursitis.

Joe Rogan 42:36 Bursitis- bursitis in your elbow?

Kelly Pavlik 42:38 Yeah. And, you know, that came into an issue. And we sparred. You know, like I said, it was a handful. It might have been more than three or four, but it wasn't a lot 'cause usually in training camp, you do three days a week for about... Eight-week camp for about six, six and a half weeks.

Joe Rogan 42:51 And it was because of your elbow that you couldn't spar?

Kelly Pavlik 42:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:54 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 42:54 You know, 'cause we didn't want to keep hitting it. And then I didn't like... Just the way I am, I didn't like having a brace on it or nothing, um, so that was an issue. And, and there was a lot of things that sometimes if you could go back and you wish you could do it over again, but there was a lot of other, um, things going on why we didn't postpone the fight. First of all, it sold out and, uh, the Youngstown people bought all the tickets. Um, we had the issue with the Paul Williams fight, you know, that it fell through, so I ca-... I just came off fighting Gary Lockett, who was really not a well-known name, a household name. So if I would have postponed that fight, the backlash on that would have been bad, really bad.

Joe Rogan 43:35 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 43:36 And, you know, so there... It was more the ego thing that I think, and worried about what everybody was gonna think. Taking nothing away at all from... But that's w- where I wanted to tap into, taking nothing away from Bernard Hopkins. Unfortunately, against a guy like Bernard Hopkins that I had to have that happen to me is what sucks. And, and he was a tremendous fighter. I mean, he did things in there. A lot of times, I seen him making moves and I knew what he was doing, and I just couldn't pull the trigger on it. Um, and he was fast and he was strong. And then there was times that he just did some crafty things also that, you know, got to me and, and his body work in that fight slowed me down a lot. But it was just one of them fights where I could honestly say that that was not an 80% Kelly Palik. And I could be honest and say if I was 100%, I don't know if I would have won that fight. And I'll be honest about it. I'm not gonna be the guy that s- that comes there and says, "Well, if I was 100%, I would have knocked him out." No, it's Bernard Hopkins, you know? Um...

Joe Rogan 44:33 When you think about your legacy and you think about looking back at your c- your career, those kind of fights where you had to take it when you were compromised, um, how do those factor in to you? Do those, those fuck with your head?

Kelly Pavlik 44:45 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not in a real bad way.

Joe Rogan 44:48 Right, but enough where you're like, "Ah, if I was 100%."

Kelly Pavlik 44:51 Yeah. You know, I- I got invited to the International Boxing Hall of Fame over the summer, and it was cool as hell and- and to be there. And you start seeing the inductees and everything, and I start... You start breaking down your career. Like-

Joe Rogan 45:01 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 45:02 ... "Am I... Am I able to qualify for this?" You know, and-

Joe Rogan 45:05 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 45:06 ... "Is so-and-so gonna get pissed off who didn't get in because I got in?" And I look at it, and I b- I break it down a couple ways. I say, "40-2 with 34 knockouts is a hell of a record." You know, I held the belts for over three years. Um, I beat a handful of guys that were legit when I beat them. And then I, then I look at the fight though, I fought Bernard Hopkins, and I got my ass whooped in that fight. There's no other way of putting it, you know, it's the truth. So how much did that damage, you know, uh, people remembering that? Nobody looks at the fact of the two-weight class jump-

Joe Rogan 45:40 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 45:40 ... and then coming back down and defending against a, a very game Antonio Rubio. And then of course, the, the Martinez fight, which a lot of people, and it was documented and, and on HBO with the commentators, you know, the weight issue in that fight. But-

Joe Rogan 45:55 What was the weight issue in that fight?

Kelly Pavlik 45:57 Oh, just how he had to get down. That was my last fight at middleweight.

Joe Rogan 46:00 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 46:00 You know, trying to cut the weight. I was 29 at the time, and another great fighter, uh, happened. It was tough with the weight. Um, I really can't use that as an excuse though, 'cause I don't know. But, you know, I know I was doing good in the ninth round, I did hit a wall. A lot of people try to use the cut, and I, I think even without the cut, the same result would have happened though. You know, he would have boxed my ears off the last four rounds. It was just one of them things that there's nothing you could do. So when I, when I sum up my career, I look at those fights and I, and I know personally that it could have been different, but at the same time, I'm very happy and content with the way my career went. You know, I was 40-2. Um, my last four fight... I won my last four fights, you know, before I retired. So I went out winning, um, and, and I was done with the sport. I, I truly was. And so I, I think right now I'm, I'm kind of content and happy with my career. Of course, I think anybody says, "Could it have been better? And I wish it was better." Yeah, maybe a little bit, but I'm not gonna ever beat myself up over it.

Joe Rogan 47:00 Well, it's just one of those things where you... When, when you look back and you think of all the great things that you did accomplish, then you realize that you retired at 30.

Kelly Pavlik 47:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:10 So much, so much room there, you know? 30 is so young.

Kelly Pavlik 47:14 It is.

Joe Rogan 47:15 It's like you're in your athletic prime. They, I think they say 32 for a professional fighter-

Kelly Pavlik 47:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:19 ... they consider most athletic primes at 32.

Kelly Pavlik 47:22 It was, but, you know, uh, I look back on it and again, you know, the 42 fights. That's a lot of fights.

Joe Rogan 47:27 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 47:27 Um, plus I started when I was nine, I had a little over 100 amateur fights. There, there was a lot with that. I mean, for a while there, bef- well before I retired, I was throwing it around, you know, retiring. I was one of them guys that just... I liked it and I loved it, but I also sometimes got tired of it.

Joe Rogan 47:45 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 47:46 You know, I'm a very simple guy, and, and, uh, I don't, I don't care about the...... glam or the fame or, or any of that. I, I truly don't. You know, like, even now with my, my podcast and what I'm doing with some of these other adventures, it's because I got bored and I wanna have fun-

Joe Rogan 48:03 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 48:03 ... you know what I mean? And, and keep myself busy. And, um, I've been fortunate to, to have what I have to be able to do all this on my own, you know, and go out there and, and be around everybody. But yeah, so when I was fighting, you know, there was a lot of rumors around of the retirement this, that. And I think the final icing on the cake was we were supposed to fight Andre Ward. And that's when Andre Ward ended up getting a sh- uh, shoulder surgery and that fight fell through. And now I've been out in California training, or in Oxnard training for almost a year, which most fighters leave at the beginning of their career, you know, when they don't have a family, when they're not making the money, that's their opportunity to try and go make money. Not when you're 12 years into it, you know? And, uh, so I went out there and that kind of took a little bit from here as far as the sport, even though I loved it and it was great training with, uh, Robert Garcia. I learned so much that I didn't think I could learn at that state- point in my career. And when that, that Andre Ward fight fell through, um, I was, I was done. I mean, I was... I rolled over, I'll never forget, I rolled over and told my wife, I said, "I think I'm done." And she goes, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "I think I'm retiring." And she started crying of... tears of joy because she wanted me to be done even before that. She don't know the sport or-

Joe Rogan 49:19 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 49:20 ... what, what prime ages or not. And, uh, I hung them up and, and, you know, over the years, as we talked earlier, here and there I would get the itch, you know? And that could have been just going to the gym and hitting the... or doing a round on the pads, but I, I just didn't ever wanted to keep doing it. You know, my health, believe it or not, is more important than, than, uh, anything else.

Joe Rogan 49:41 Well, that is something that every fighter has to consider, like, when have they fought too much?

Kelly Pavlik 49:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:46 How do you make that decision?

Kelly Pavlik 49:48 When your heart... When you lose it in here, in, in that heart a little bit, it's a horrible hobby to have, especially at that high of a level.

Joe Rogan 49:55 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 49:56 You know? Because you're not fighting guys that are getting off work at 3:00 o'clock and-

Joe Rogan 50:00 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 50:01 ... you know, you're fighting guys that are legit athletes and, and skilled professionals at fighting and, um, it's dangerous. Unfortunately, we've seen... Uh, and know when we're talking about this, uh, with me getting the itch earlier, there's a lot of things I take in consideration. Like, I'm, I'm really into it and I'm really debating on it and I'm hitting the gym, working boxing, then I see things like this Adonis Stevenson situation.

Joe Rogan 50:26 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 50:26 You know? And those are the things where I say, "I gotta sit back and talk to my-"

Joe Rogan 50:29 Explain to people what happened.

Kelly Pavlik 50:31 He just... He got hit. It was a good fight. He's been fighting for years now, one of the most, uh, feared fighters also in boxing because-

Joe Rogan 50:37 And he fought the guy we were talking about earlier.

Kelly Pavlik 50:39 Yeah. Uh, I can't pronounce his name. Um, I don't want to chop it up. He-

Joe Rogan 50:44 Pull up the, the Russian gentleman's name. We... Yeah. There's a way to say it. It's, uh...

Kelly Pavlik 50:52 B- uh, better be... bu-

Joe Rogan 50:54 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 50:56 I see him all the time too.

Joe Rogan 50:57 Adonis Stevenson.

Kelly Pavlik 50:58 I got that. Um, uh...

Joe Rogan 51:01 These Russian cats have some crazy ass names, man. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 51:04 They do, they do. I know, it's hard. You know, me being a, a guy involved in the sport and, and talking about it all the time too, how hard it is for me-

Joe Rogan 51:11 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 51:11 ... to get it down.

Joe Rogan 51:12 There's so many badass Russians these days. Okay. It's G-

Kelly Pavlik 51:17 Vozdyk, Vozdyk.

Joe Rogan 51:17 Yeah. It's G-V-O-Z-D-Y-K, but it's Vozdyk.

Kelly Pavlik 51:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:22 You don't pronounce the G. Vozdyk.

Kelly Pavlik 51:25 Aleksander Vozdyk.

Joe Rogan 51:25 He's a beast, too, man.

Kelly Pavlik 51:26 He is.

Joe Rogan 51:27 He's a beast.

Kelly Pavlik 51:28 So in that fight... Again, Adonis Stevenson is a brutal puncher, devastating knockout puncher. He's been fighting all these years now also. And this is the part that's, that's scary about it.

Joe Rogan 51:39 He's 41, right?

Kelly Pavlik 51:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Isn't he 41?

Kelly Pavlik 51:40 Yes. And that's another situat- or, you know...

Joe Rogan 51:43 Factor.

Kelly Pavlik 51:44 Factor where you might want to say, "Hey, I'm done."

Joe Rogan 51:47 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 51:47 You know, even before this happened. Unfortunately, it had to get to this point. But, uh, he's in there and it's a fairly decent fight from what I was watching. And next thing you know, he, he goes down, f- fight's over and-

Joe Rogan 51:58 He, he dropped Voznyk at s- at some point in the fight.

Kelly Pavlik 52:01 He did.

Joe Rogan 52:02 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 52:02 And he, uh... Next thing you know, he ends up in a coma, you know, fighting for his life. Th- the sport, you never know. That's the scary thing about it, you know?

Joe Rogan 52:11 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 52:11 You could get injured two weeks before the fight in sparring and have a little bleed that you would ever know, you know, no signs of it, and then the next thing you're, you're in a coma and dead.

Joe Rogan 52:22 Yeah. Well, I know that that really fucked up Roy Jones Jr. when Gerald McClellan, who was his arch rival, you know, this was the guy that they thought one day he was gonna fight when McClellan was killing it at light heavyweight and Roy was 168 pound champion-

Kelly Pavlik 52:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:35 ... and then, you know, to see McClellan now. But you know, people who don't remember, man, Mc- McClellan was a fucking destroyer. He was so goddamn scary and so good.

Kelly Pavlik 52:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:45 And he hit so hard and he was the guy that, you know, he's a Kronk fighter, you know, in the vein of Tommy Hearns and all those other great Kronk fighters.

Kelly Pavlik 52:54 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 52:54 And people looked at him like, "Man, one day that's going to be the fight, him and Roy Jones Jr." It was almost like it was inevitable.

Kelly Pavlik 52:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:00 It was like Canelo and Triple G or something, you know?

Kelly Pavlik 53:02 I know, because everybody does the fantasy matchups and they ask me if I... Pavlik verse McClellan, I'm going, "What are you guys trying to do to me? I don't want that fight." You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 53:09 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 53:09 Because he did hit that hard.

Joe Rogan 53:10 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 53:10 He was a brutal guy.

Joe Rogan 53:13 Yeah. And then to see him when he fought Nigel Benn, same situation, lapse into that coma. We don't know how Adonis Stevenson is going to come out of this, but-

Kelly Pavlik 53:21 We don't.

Joe Rogan 53:22 ... a lot of times when a guy does have a traumatic brain injury like that, like, they're never the same again.

Kelly Pavlik 53:28 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep, and that's what I'm saying. I mean, it could have happened... That could have been something two weeks earlier that was never detected, you know, or signs of it.

Joe Rogan 53:34 Mm-hmm. Right.

Kelly Pavlik 53:35 So it, it's scary. It is. Um-

Joe Rogan 53:37 So you take that into consideration, but you also have that itch.

Kelly Pavlik 53:40 Yeah. You know, and again, I, I'm 36. Um... It's, it's something that, again, is going to be a process of sitting down and discussing, you know what it's gonna be?

Joe Rogan 53:49 Yeah. So would you say you're like 60% considering fighting again?

Kelly Pavlik 53:54 ... uh, maybe a little more right now.

Joe Rogan 53:56 Ooh.

Kelly Pavlik 53:56 (laughs) I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 53:58 Ooh. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 53:59 I know. Um-

Joe Rogan 54:01 Wait. Do you ever, like, go back and watch, like, highlight reels? And then you start shadowboxing and getting itchy-

Kelly Pavlik 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:07 ... and really start thinking about it?

Kelly Pavlik 54:08 Yeah. And it's weird because I'm in my gym, and, and there's people lifting weights, and I'm in the back. I got a couple bags back there, and I'm... You start hearing the bags popping, and everybody... They're not used to seeing it, so everybody gets curious, and they come back. And you see them, like, peeking around the corner and watching me hit the bag, and then I get a little embarrassed. I'm like, "All right, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm gonna chill with it right now." So yeah, it, it's, uh, it's fun. It, it is. Um, it's a thought again, and we'll, we'll see. But a lot of that plays on my, my mind because the... one thing is, it becomes very selfish too at a point. I got two young kids at home, you know, that's going to be 13 and 10. Um, they're involved in sports and a lot of activities. They love me being around for it. And it don't take me having to fight a USYK...

Joe Rogan 54:52 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 54:53 ... to, for something to happen.

Joe Rogan 54:54 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 54:54 You know what I mean? Um, but we'll, we'll toss it around, and we'll, we'll see how that goes.

Joe Rogan 55:00 Yeah. That's, um, that's a big consideration, right?

Kelly Pavlik 55:03 Yeah. There's a lot of things to factor in on that before-

Joe Rogan 55:05 Well, especially because you are busy now. And so what made you decide to do a podcast?

Kelly Pavlik 55:11 Actually, um, my buddy-

Joe Rogan 55:12 I was excited when I heard you were doing that. I was like, "All right."

Kelly Pavlik 55:14 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:15 "Let's get into the podcast world."

Kelly Pavlik 55:16 I am. I'm looking, you know, I hear some of these guys, uh, commentating, and I say, "I think I could do that."

Joe Rogan 55:21 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 55:21 Um, after-

Joe Rogan 55:21 You could do that.

Kelly Pavlik 55:22 After listening. And the podcast, we're kind of throwing it around. Um, I had... Like I said, I got a handful of investments going on, and I, I pick and choose on what I want to do. And the podcast started off, uh, "Hey, let's have fun. Let's throw this podcast on. We'll get some cheap equipment, you know, um, got a lot of followers on social media, so we'll do, like, the social media live, and then we'll also hook it to the YouTube." And we were doing it, and it started off for a little while there, um, with no advertisement. It was kind of lonely, you know? You're on-

Joe Rogan 55:53 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 55:53 (laughs) Yeah. Just, just, you know, you're... If you feel like I'm talking into a mic and nobody's there.

Joe Rogan 55:58 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 55:58 Um, and then it started taking... It, it's doing fairly well right now too.

Joe Rogan 56:01 How many downloads you getting?

Kelly Pavlik 56:03 Man, right now, well, the, the social media is the biggest. We end up hitting, it reaches out after the first episode, you got 2,000, uh, people reached and maybe like 400 views. And then as the days go on and the shares go on, you start seeing it reaches out to over like 20 some thousand people, and then you see, you know, like, uh, 8,000 views. So, and that's on social media.

Joe Rogan 56:27 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 56:27 We gotta... YouTube is the one I'm working for, you know, really trying to push. And right now sometimes we get up 113 views on there. And then sometimes I don't even want to mention how many views are on it.

Joe Rogan 56:37 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 56:38 Uh, so w- again, it's a process with that also. I know that. I'm starting to learn that. Um-

Joe Rogan 56:43 It's about consistency.

Kelly Pavlik 56:44 It is.

Joe Rogan 56:44 That's the most important thing. Keep-

Kelly Pavlik 56:45 But I get, I get out to these fights and people know it, you know, who I, who don't comment on the show because we do it where it's, it's live. The format of it is to have everybody involved because they like that. They get to ask questions, and we're pretty much faces in the phone reading the questions and answering it, and I think they like that. And it actually is kind of funny because we'll get some great guests on there. We had TJ Dillashaw. We had Mikey Garcia, Terence Crawford on. I think you could ha- I think you could bring back Joe Lewis and put him on there, and people don't care about that. They want their, their questions answered, you know, through the social media or through YouTube, and they kind of don't interact with the, the guests that you have on. So it's, it's weird. Um, I think the format, I like the format of it, but at the same time, I wish people would be more involved with the guests that we have on.

Joe Rogan 57:31 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 57:31 But for the most part, it's, it's fun. It's different.

Joe Rogan 57:33 But that kind of format is... well, boxing fans in particular, well, all... I should say just combat sports fans in particular, they love to comment on things.

Kelly Pavlik 57:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:42 They love to get in on it. I mean, uh-

Kelly Pavlik 57:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:45 ... whenever there's a big fight, social media just lights up, both with boxing and with MMA. They, they lo- the l- and the, the ability to go back and forth with a guy like you and get your questions answered and stuff like that-

Kelly Pavlik 57:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:55 ... has got to be huge.

Kelly Pavlik 57:56 Yep. And we tap in... We've had Matt Brown on, so we tap into the UFC. I personally don't want to 'cause I don't wanna make nobody mad. I don't know enough. I watch it, and I enjoy it.

Joe Rogan 58:05 You're not gonna make anybody mad.

Kelly Pavlik 58:06 I know. I'm saying that some of the fans, you know, I watch it.

Joe Rogan 58:09 Fuck them.

Kelly Pavlik 58:09 I enjoy it, but my... Now, the co-host, James Dominguez, he's really big into that, you know, and he was the one who actually introduced me to Matt Brown.

Joe Rogan 58:17 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 58:17 And, um, so he knows. So on that show, that's where we worked, you know, hand in hand together. Like, he's able to do more of the questions and-

Joe Rogan 58:24 I think it's fun when boxers don't know about MMA and they ask wonky questions.

Kelly Pavlik 58:28 I know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:29 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 58:29 It's, yeah, that's how I feel with, you know, vice versa, so-

Joe Rogan 58:31 I'm sure, man.

Kelly Pavlik 58:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:32 I'm sure. Like, when you... When a big fight goes down and, um, you, uh... Do, do you watch it and stream live?

Kelly Pavlik 58:41 We do. Uh, well, we tried. We, we d- actually tried on that. Um-

Joe Rogan 58:45 That's a great idea for someone like you.

Kelly Pavlik 58:47 Bet.

Joe Rogan 58:47 We do a thing called the Fight Companion. We do it all the time where there's a UFC fight. We'll put it up on that screen. We'll have a g- bunch of guys in here.

Kelly Pavlik 58:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:53 And we'll watch the fights and talk shit while the fights are going on, and people play it alongside the commentary.

Kelly Pavlik 59:00 Okay.

Joe Rogan 59:00 So it's like they're watching the fights with us.

Kelly Pavlik 59:02 Yeah. That's an idea. Thank you. Um-

Joe Rogan 59:04 It's a great idea. Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 59:05 It absolutely is. And that's the whole thing. We're just looking for different-

Joe Rogan 59:09 Plus if you, if you go into the comments and start, you know, uh, having people ask questions like-

Kelly Pavlik 59:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:13 ... who do you think won that round, then you go, this is why, you know, I think Triple G won the round. This is why Canelo lost the round, or this is why you could make an argument that Canelo won it. That-

Kelly Pavlik 59:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:23 That kind of stuff for... that kind of interaction stuff for-

Kelly Pavlik 59:26 It does. And the fans love that.

Joe Rogan 59:27 S- they love it.

Kelly Pavlik 59:27 Yup.

Joe Rogan 59:28 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 59:28 They, they love that. And that's, that's what we're, you know, looking at different ideas too 'cause you never stop learning. You can never stop-

Joe Rogan 59:35 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 59:35 ... you know, expanding an- and doing things like that. So it's good. You know, we get places. We get to these big fights, and, and, uh, people notice the show, you know? "Hey, I love your show." Even if they don't, they're saying that to me, you know? Um-

Joe Rogan 59:48 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 59:48 Yeah. It was, uh...

Joe Rogan 59:49 Even if they don't, they're saying to me. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 59:51 If you're saying it... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:51 That's very, uh, that's keen insight right there.

Kelly Pavlik 59:53 Yeah. You know, and it, it was cool actually.What was that? The first Triple G-Canelo fight. You know, when I retired, I, I s- again stayed away from boxing. And I went to that, uh, I went there and I was all about promoting my podcast. And, uh, it was kind of cool. I walked in there and everybody went crazy in the media room, and I thought I was fighting again.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:00:14 After, after five years of being retired, I thought I was fighting. I mean, they were just asking, and I was ch- trying to squeeze stuff in and tell them what I was doing. And then it was cool also because Bernard Hopkins was there, you know, and I was just, I was already a year into the powerlifting. I was still about 230. And he came up and, uh, he gave me a big hug and, you know, it was awesome to, to be able to, after a fight and being able to go in there with him to see, uh, how nice he was and how humble he was after that. You know, he could have been cocky.

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 Right, right.

Kelly Pavlik 1:00:43 He could have walked past me and not said hi or recognized me at all.

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 1:00:48 And he was just, really, uh, brought me in. So ...

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 That's cool.

Kelly Pavlik 1:00:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 What did he say to you after the fight? Did he tell you need to box like a Black guy?

Kelly Pavlik 1:00:56 I think he did.

Joe Rogan 1:00:57 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:00:57 You know, after that fight, he could have told me everything he wanted in the world. He could have sat down for an hour with me and I wouldn't have remembered what he said.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:04 Um, I was, you know, everybody's seen the fight, so I don't need-

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:07 I need not to say much more on that. But, uh, he a- a- a little bit of it because my trainer was there, it was, you know, "Keep your head up. You're a hell of a fighter." You know, and, and, you know, I'm experienced and go back, go back to the drawing board. Don't get too down on this and, and come back strong." He goes, "You're a champ." And that was what he s- said.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 Yeah, I remember something where he said that you needed to learn how to fight like a Black guy.

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:28 That, yeah, I didn't hear that.

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:30 I truly didn't, you know. Hey, maybe he might have said that in an interview after-

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:33 ... with somebody and that's what people thought.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 Right, maybe.

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:35 But I know he didn't say it in a fight.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 Yeah. That was, um, that was, uh, a, uh, was, you know, one of his best performances.

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 I mean, he had so many great performances late in his career. The Tito Trinidad fight in particular because nobody, nobody thought he was going to win that fight. That was, he was a big underdog in that fight. Trinidad was the up and coming, rising Puerto Rican superstar-

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 ... was fucking everybody up and Bernard put on a show.

Kelly Pavlik 1:01:58 I thought, you know, I, I actually had Hopkins in that fight though because he was just bigger, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:02 The big guy, middleweight. Uh, Trinidad's moving up.

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:05 And, uh, you know, uh, there was a lot of good middleweights that I didn't think Trinidad was going to beat. I think Trinidad was a amazing fighter but I think his great days were at, uh, 147.

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 Yeah, I agree.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:15 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 Yeah, uh, I was, um, I mean, he was a big puncher though. I mean, he was a big puncher even up into light heavyweight.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 I mean, even into, uh-

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:22 L- middleweight.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 ... middleweight. But he was, his style was almost tailor-made for Bernard.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:28 It was.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 Bernard was so c- so clever and such a good counter-fighter and so good defensively. He didn't really open up. He didn't leave many openings.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:36 That goes back to the footwork that we were talking about.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:38 He, you notice in, when he fought that fight, even when he fought me, but Trinidad and other guys, when they go to throw a punch, he'd take that one step in and kind of suffocate the punch.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 Mm-hmm.

Kelly Pavlik 1:02:48 Especially if it was a straight right hand. Or then he would take that step and he would over, throw that overhand right and catch you with it. So, he was really good at just putting that foot, not moving around much, putting it in the right spot to hit you and counter you. Um, and he did that. Trinidad was probably one of the best technically sound fighters ever if you actually watch him, you know, the way he threw his punches. He never made mistakes on that part of it. But I think he needed a little bit more, change it up a little different with Bernard Hopkins in order to have even made that fight kind of close.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 One of the most ridiculous Trinidad fights ever. Remember when he fought Ricardo Mayorga and Mayorga let him punch him in the face?

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 He just put his hands down and go, "Go ahead." And, and Trini- Trinidad teed off-

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 ... and then he hit him with two left hooks on the chin.

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:29 Mayorga was crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:03:30 He was so crazy.

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:31 Yeah, that was a crazy dude.

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 He would smoke cigarettes-

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 ... in between rounds and shit. (laughs)

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:35 I don't even know if I could believe that. I don't know if that was a show, if he did that when the cameras were on.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 (laughs) Right.

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:39 'Cause he was, he was able to go a handful of rounds without getting tired.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:43 And I know if you smoke a cigarette, man, that's gonna take the, the wind out of you.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 Yeah, but, you know, I know fighters that smoke.

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 Yeah. Joe Schilling, who's a world-class kickboxer, top of the food chain, world champion kickboxer, smoked cigarettes.

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:57 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 Crazy fucker.

Kelly Pavlik 1:03:58 ... I, I chewed most of my career.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 That's different though, right?

Kelly Pavlik 1:04:01 It, it is. You know, ch- nicotine restricts the oxygen in the blood, and it's not good for, uh, boxers or, or anybody lifting weights.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 Re- nicotine does?

Kelly Pavlik 1:04:09 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 Like regular, like chewing tobacco restricts the oxygen?

Kelly Pavlik 1:04:11 Oh, yeah, it re- it re- it re- restricts the oxygen in the blood.

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 I didn't know that.

Kelly Pavlik 1:04:14 Yeah, but it's, but it ... Can you pull it up just to make sure?

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 It's a stimulant though, you know? It's actually like for your brain. People say the, a lot of folks... I actually bought some, I never tried it, but I bought some nicotine gum to try to see if I would write on it.

Kelly Pavlik 1:04:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:28 Like if it would help me writing. Like because it apparently works as a nootropic, as a cognitive enhancer. Nicotine is actually an effective cognitive enhancer.

Kelly Pavlik 1:04:37 I didn't know that. Maybe, uh, how much you take of it, the quantity.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't, I didn't know that it, uh, it affects your... 'cause it's a stimulant. I didn't know that it, uh, restricts the oxygen in your blood. That's pretty neat.

Kelly Pavlik 1:04:47 Yeah, from what I, from what I heard, and, and chew actually more so than cigarettes because of the amount of nicotine and how it hits, it gets into the stream faster. But to me, it was never, I didn't chew the day of the fight.

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:00 And I believe after so many hours, six to eight or 10 hours, um, it's out. So, but either or, it didn't affect me.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 That stuff's so nasty.

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:07 Because I, I was able to run, you know, three miles in 19 minutes, 19 some minutes, and five miles in 30 minutes. And, and, uh, I, I was, and I was chewing, and so it never really affected me. Um, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Well, maybe it did but just you were in such good shape.

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:21 Good shape.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 It was barely.

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:22 No, smoking on the other hand, lungs-

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Yeah.

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:24 ... filling them with... That, that's, it's, it is horrible. And, uh, but after I retired and the itch wasn't there for like a year, I, I, I wanted to give the gums a break.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Right.

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:34 And I decided, "Well, you know what? I'll smoke." And I, I quit smoking shortly-

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 You started smoking cigarettes after you retired?

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 Jesus Christ.

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:41 Well, I, I didn't want to start them when I was fighting.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Who the fuck starts at 30?

Kelly Pavlik 1:05:45 I, I was switching out 'cause I, it was nicotine, so-

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 Here, here it is. Smoke tobacco, smokeless tobacco and health risks. Uh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh. The amount of nicotine in the bloodstream after using smokeless tobacco may be higher than that of a cigarette smoker.Okay. What does it say about oxygen, though?

Kelly Pavlik 1:06:03 Well, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 That's where I was going, that this puts it all together, the nicotine basically has taken the place of the oxygen, I think is- Hmm. ... what the other- You know what I'm saying? There's another... It's a less scientific,