JRE MMA Show #55 with Kelly Pavlik

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Three, two... Youngstown in…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Three, two... Youngstown in the house. How are you, brother?

   2. KPKelly Pavlik0:07

      Good. How are you doing?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      Thanks for doing this, man. I appreciate it.

   4. KPKelly Pavlik0:09

      No, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      You're out here, um, workin' with Danny Garcia?

   6. KPKelly Pavlik0:16

      No, um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      No, Mikey- Mikey Garcia.

   8. KPKelly Pavlik0:18

      Mikey Garcia and, uh, Garcia Camp. Um, also I came out, you know, a couple things, uh, as we mentioned earlier, a buddy of mine, uh, Mark LaMicca throwin' some ideas around and kinda just taking a week out here in California to, you know, keep moving.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      It's nice, right?

   10. KPKelly Pavlik0:33

       So-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       It's nice-

   12. KPKelly Pavlik0:34

       It is nice.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       ... out there.

   14. KPKelly Pavlik0:34

       Yeah. It was nice in, uh, Ohio, believe it or not, and then, uh, this morning they woke up to like three inches of snow. So now I'm out here enjoying and they got the snow.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Well, the thing about LA is no one's from here, so everybody grew up in a place like Youngstown or something like that. Like you were saying, you run into a bunch of Youngstown people out here.

   16. KPKelly Pavlik0:51

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Tony Hinchcliffe got super excited to see you.

   18. KPKelly Pavlik0:53

       Absolutely. And I'm-

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       (laughs)

   20. KPKelly Pavlik0:54

       You know, and that's-

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       (laughs)

   22. KPKelly Pavlik0:55

       ... what's weird about that. I'm excited to see him and he's excited to see me and it's, uh, it was really cool. Um, you know, I- I- I've heard of Tony and I knew of Tony, you know, before and everything. And then, uh, to finally be able to meet him and somebody from Youngstown that's doing, you know, great things, it was kinda cool. So...

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Yeah, no. It was cool hanging out with you when we were in Columbus too.

   24. KPKelly Pavlik1:13

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       That was a fun time.

   26. KPKelly Pavlik1:14

       It was. There was good eatings too.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Yeah. What was the name of that place again?

   28. KPKelly Pavlik1:18

       You guys picked it, I believe.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       I think it's- Italian Market, I think it was. Whose joint was that? Is that- It was your friend's friend of a friend, I don't remember the name. Matt Brown's friend, right? Yeah. I don't remember the name. Matthew Mortal? Yeah, it was-

   30. KPKelly Pavlik1:27

       Another good guy.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   I counted it as…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      uh, Instagram or one or the other. It was... I think it was on Wilder's, uh, Instagram where he had it where the count starts right when Fury drops.

   2. KPKelly Pavlik15:08

      I counted it as soon as his back... almost right before his back hits the ground until where he got up. And again, that's only a ten-second count-

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:15

      Right.

   4. KPKelly Pavlik15:15

      ... without a referee even coming over to him.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KPKelly Pavlik15:17

      You know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      Okay.

   8. KPKelly Pavlik15:18

      Um, (smacks lips) but, you know, as far as the, the fight itself, I gave, I gave Wilder, obviously, the two knockdowns. That's automatically four rounds. But I thought th- a- and I gave him one other round after that. I thought Tyson Fury controlled the action, you know, uh, ha- controlled the momentum of the fight. On the flip side of it, I think that Wilder actually could have made that a easier fight too. You know, Wilder actually has a hard time with his control. H- he don't know how to really work to the body. I don't wanna put it on the trainer, I don't know what the issue is with that, but he neglected that body a lot throughout the fight and I just thought that's why Tyson won most of those rounds. You know, he just controlled the action, the pace, and was kinda able to do what he wanted to. And I think that if Wilder went back with his trainer and watched the tape of that fight, they're gonna see a lot of opportunities that were missed in that fight.

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:07

      Well, you know, what's crazy about Wilder is how little time he's actually been boxing.

   10. KPKelly Pavlik16:11

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       I mean, it's really stunning. When he was on here, he told us that he made it to the Olympic team a year and a half into wor- learning boxing.

   12. KPKelly Pavlik16:19

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       And he won a bronze medal.

   14. KPKelly Pavlik16:21

       In the heavyweight division though, you can kinda get away with that too.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:24

       Yeah.

   16. KPKelly Pavlik16:24

       You can. You know, most of your heavy... for... well, back then also, were big guys who came up. Usually most of them were football players or something like that-

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:32

       Mm-hmm.

   18. KPKelly Pavlik16:32

       ... and they kind of just got into the sport and still even to this day, you're talking about maybe three heavyweights that really could throw down, um, as where so many other guys are just big sloppy guys that come in.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       Right.

   20. KPKelly Pavlik16:42

       You know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Well, so what do we got now? You got Luis Ortiz, you got Fury, uh, Wilder-

   22. KPKelly Pavlik16:48

       Joshua.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       ... Joshua. Who else? Joseph Parker.

   24. KPKelly Pavlik16:52

       Yeah, Parker.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       Yeah.

   26. KPKelly Pavlik16:53

       You know, and I think right now, Parker is one of the guys that could actually still upset anybody in the heavyweight division-

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       Yeah.

   28. KPKelly Pavlik16:58

       ... especially with that style that he has.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Yeah.

   30. KPKelly Pavlik17:00

       You know? Um, so it's getting interesting again though, it is.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. KPKelly Pavlik30:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      Yeah.

   3. KPKelly Pavlik30:00

      And he, other than his calves (laughs) -

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:02

      (laughs)

   5. KPKelly Pavlik30:03

      ... I, I don't think, uh, anything else is much bigger than Lomachenko on his body and he was able to do it.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:08

      And what the fuck is going on with his calves?

   7. KPKelly Pavlik30:10

      I don't know.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:11

      It's like he's keeping hams in them.

   9. KPKelly Pavlik30:12

      I don't know what he does. I, you know, I wish I knew the secret to that because I could use it, so, uh-

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:16

       Get, get that secret to Jon Jones. This article says that his mother was actually a martial, or still is a martial artist. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Hm. Gymnast to martial artist. Well, it makes sense. And then boxer. Yeah, man, footwork, the way he does it is just, it's something to watch, man. It's just, the, the, the ability to, to move and also to anticipate the other fighter's movements. It's like, especially earlier in his career, it's like he was fighting guys that just, they seemed so crude in comparison to his approach.

   11. KPKelly Pavlik30:45

       Yeah, and you know what's even more crazy about it is being the opponent because usually you go into a fight and you break down film and you're, you're going over the film and you got a good idea of what he does right, what he does wrong and, and what you might want, have to do. Lomachenko, it's hard to pick up where he's gonna go. He, he... different angles. So you can't, you can't go, "Well, you know what? After he throws the, the right hand, he likes to move over to the left." Because he does it one time and then the next time, he's totally somewhere opposite.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:12

       Yeah.

   13. KPKelly Pavlik31:12

       You know what I mean? And yeah, the angles, it's really almost impossible to break film down on him. You know, like this last fight with this Pedrazao, everybody's going, "That was the blueprint." (laughs) And I'm going, "No, no, it wasn't." You know, he, uh... and they're saying it was a closer fight than, you know, people expected. I go, "Why? 'Cause he finally got hit with more than 11 punches in a fight?"

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:30

       Oh, that's him, uh, doing some, uh, sambo, I believe is- Yeah, I guess it's... Yeah, he's, uh, trained it when he was younger- Greco-Roman. ... as a kid. Yeah, yeah, he's, he's slamming kids, that's right. Well, you know what, man? Uh, I believe in cross-training and I think that there's certainly some skills that would make you better at different martial arts and, uh, I feel like if you have the ability to wrestle guys and, and move guys' bodies around like that you would get from something like sambo, I just feel like as a, uh, an elite boxer, having that extra strength, that extra ability to move your core that way, I think that would be beneficial.

   15. KPKelly Pavlik32:07

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:07

       I mean, uh, the thing is no world class boxer has the time to also be doing judo and also be doing wrestling. You just don't have the time.

   17. KPKelly Pavlik32:15

       Nope, and being in combat sports, even I know that as far as... I'm, I'm not involved in MMA, but I know that. You know, these guys, they have to, uh, perfect three or four as much time in, in a short period of time.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       Yeah.

   19. KPKelly Pavlik32:27

       You know, I imagine... I think Matt was telling me, you would know more, like sometimes it's two days of one, two days of the next-

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:34

       Mm-hmm.

   21. KPKelly Pavlik32:34

       ... um, trying to fit that in. Yeah, it's hard. You cannot, especially in boxing, the sweet science where it's just hands, but you got people that's all they do all day long.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:43

       Right.

   23. KPKelly Pavlik32:43

       That's why I say it's so unfair when an MMA guy goes in and fights a Mayweather because Mayweather, he perfected that.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       Yeah.

   25. KPKelly Pavlik32:50

       And you got to use just that style of boxing. I- it's gonna be almost impossible to beat a boxer, a, a world champion boxer.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:57

       Did you watch the New Year's fight, that thing that he did with, uh, Tenshin-

   27. KPKelly Pavlik33:00

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       ... Yasukawa?

   29. KPKelly Pavlik33:01

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       Yeah. A lot of people think that was a fixed fight. I think that was 120-pound fighter fighting the best ever.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. KPKelly Pavlik45:00

      breaking down your career. Like-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. KPKelly Pavlik45:02

      ... "Am I... Am I able to qualify for this?" You know, and-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:05

      Right.

   5. KPKelly Pavlik45:06

      ... "Is so-and-so gonna get pissed off who didn't get in because I got in?" And I look at it, and I b- I break it down a couple ways. I say, "40-2 with 34 knockouts is a hell of a record." You know, I held the belts for over three years. Um, I beat a handful of guys that were legit when I beat them. And then I, then I look at the fight though, I fought Bernard Hopkins, and I got my ass whooped in that fight. There's no other way of putting it, you know, it's the truth. So how much did that damage, you know, uh, people remembering that? Nobody looks at the fact of the two-weight class jump-

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:40

      Mm-hmm.

   7. KPKelly Pavlik45:40

      ... and then coming back down and defending against a, a very game Antonio Rubio. And then of course, the, the Martinez fight, which a lot of people, and it was documented and, and on HBO with the commentators, you know, the weight issue in that fight. But-

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:55

      What was the weight issue in that fight?

   9. KPKelly Pavlik45:57

      Oh, just how he had to get down. That was my last fight at middleweight.

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:00

       Mm-hmm.

   11. KPKelly Pavlik46:00

       You know, trying to cut the weight. I was 29 at the time, and another great fighter, uh, happened. It was tough with the weight. Um, I really can't use that as an excuse though, 'cause I don't know. But, you know, I know I was doing good in the ninth round, I did hit a wall. A lot of people try to use the cut, and I, I think even without the cut, the same result would have happened though. You know, he would have boxed my ears off the last four rounds. It was just one of them things that there's nothing you could do. So when I, when I sum up my career, I look at those fights and I, and I know personally that it could have been different, but at the same time, I'm very happy and content with the way my career went. You know, I was 40-2. Um, my last four fight... I won my last four fights, you know, before I retired. So I went out winning, um, and, and I was done with the sport. I, I truly was. And so I, I think right now I'm, I'm kind of content and happy with my career. Of course, I think anybody says, "Could it have been better? And I wish it was better." Yeah, maybe a little bit, but I'm not gonna ever beat myself up over it.

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:00

       Well, it's just one of those things where you... When, when you look back and you think of all the great things that you did accomplish, then you realize that you retired at 30.

   13. KPKelly Pavlik47:08

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan47:10

       So much, so much room there, you know? 30 is so young.

   15. KPKelly Pavlik47:14

       It is.

   16. JRJoe Rogan47:15

       It's like you're in your athletic prime. They, I think they say 32 for a professional fighter-

   17. KPKelly Pavlik47:19

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan47:19

       ... they consider most athletic primes at 32.

   19. KPKelly Pavlik47:22

       It was, but, you know, uh, I look back on it and again, you know, the 42 fights. That's a lot of fights.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:27

       Yeah.

   21. KPKelly Pavlik47:27

       Um, plus I started when I was nine, I had a little over 100 amateur fights. There, there was a lot with that. I mean, for a while there, bef- well before I retired, I was throwing it around, you know, retiring. I was one of them guys that just... I liked it and I loved it, but I also sometimes got tired of it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:45

       Right.

   23. KPKelly Pavlik47:46

       You know, I'm a very simple guy, and, and, uh, I don't, I don't care about the...... glam or the fame or, or any of that. I, I truly don't. You know, like, even now with my, my podcast and what I'm doing with some of these other adventures, it's because I got bored and I wanna have fun-

   24. JRJoe Rogan48:03

       Right.

   25. KPKelly Pavlik48:03

       ... you know what I mean? And, and keep myself busy. And, um, I've been fortunate to, to have what I have to be able to do all this on my own, you know, and go out there and, and be around everybody. But yeah, so when I was fighting, you know, there was a lot of rumors around of the retirement this, that. And I think the final icing on the cake was we were supposed to fight Andre Ward. And that's when Andre Ward ended up getting a sh- uh, shoulder surgery and that fight fell through. And now I've been out in California training, or in Oxnard training for almost a year, which most fighters leave at the beginning of their career, you know, when they don't have a family, when they're not making the money, that's their opportunity to try and go make money. Not when you're 12 years into it, you know? And, uh, so I went out there and that kind of took a little bit from here as far as the sport, even though I loved it and it was great training with, uh, Robert Garcia. I learned so much that I didn't think I could learn at that state- point in my career. And when that, that Andre Ward fight fell through, um, I was, I was done. I mean, I was... I rolled over, I'll never forget, I rolled over and told my wife, I said, "I think I'm done." And she goes, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "I think I'm retiring." And she started crying of... tears of joy because she wanted me to be done even before that. She don't know the sport or-

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:19

       Right.

   27. KPKelly Pavlik49:20

       ... what, what prime ages or not. And, uh, I hung them up and, and, you know, over the years, as we talked earlier, here and there I would get the itch, you know? And that could have been just going to the gym and hitting the... or doing a round on the pads, but I, I just didn't ever wanted to keep doing it. You know, my health, believe it or not, is more important than, than, uh, anything else.

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:41

       Well, that is something that every fighter has to consider, like, when have they fought too much?

   29. KPKelly Pavlik49:46

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:46

       How do you make that decision?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:06:20

   (laughs) …

   1. KPKelly Pavlik1:00:00

      s- again stayed away from boxing. And I went to that, uh, I went there and I was all about promoting my podcast. And, uh, it was kind of cool. I walked in there and everybody went crazy in the media room, and I thought I was fighting again.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

      (laughs)

   3. KPKelly Pavlik1:00:14

      After, after five years of being retired, I thought I was fighting. I mean, they were just asking, and I was ch- trying to squeeze stuff in and tell them what I was doing. And then it was cool also because Bernard Hopkins was there, you know, and I was just, I was already a year into the powerlifting. I was still about 230. And he came up and, uh, he gave me a big hug and, you know, it was awesome to, to be able to, after a fight and being able to go in there with him to see, uh, how nice he was and how humble he was after that. You know, he could have been cocky.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:43

      Right, right.

   5. KPKelly Pavlik1:00:43

      He could have walked past me and not said hi or recognized me at all.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:48

      Right.

   7. KPKelly Pavlik1:00:48

      And he was just, really, uh, brought me in. So ...

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

      That's cool.

   9. KPKelly Pavlik1:00:52

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       What did he say to you after the fight? Did he tell you need to box like a Black guy?

   11. KPKelly Pavlik1:00:56

       I think he did.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

       (laughs)

   13. KPKelly Pavlik1:00:57

       You know, after that fight, he could have told me everything he wanted in the world. He could have sat down for an hour with me and I wouldn't have remembered what he said.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

       (laughs)

   15. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:04

       Um, I was, you know, everybody's seen the fight, so I don't need-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       Yeah.

   17. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:07

       I need not to say much more on that. But, uh, he a- a- a little bit of it because my trainer was there, it was, you know, "Keep your head up. You're a hell of a fighter." You know, and, and, you know, I'm experienced and go back, go back to the drawing board. Don't get too down on this and, and come back strong." He goes, "You're a champ." And that was what he s- said.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:25

       Yeah, I remember something where he said that you needed to learn how to fight like a Black guy.

   19. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:28

       That, yeah, I didn't hear that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

       (laughs)

   21. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:30

       I truly didn't, you know. Hey, maybe he might have said that in an interview after-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

       (laughs)

   23. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:33

       ... with somebody and that's what people thought.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

       Right, maybe.

   25. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:35

       But I know he didn't say it in a fight.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       Right.

   27. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:37

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

       Yeah. That was, um, that was, uh, a, uh, was, you know, one of his best performances.

   29. KPKelly Pavlik1:01:43

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:43

       I mean, he had so many great performances late in his career. The Tito Trinidad fight in particular because nobody, nobody thought he was going to win that fight. That was, he was a big underdog in that fight. Trinidad was the up and coming, rising Puerto Rican superstar-

Episode duration: 2:35:58