JRE MMA Show #60 with Forrest Griffin, Clint Wattenberg & Dr. Duncan French

1. 0:00 – 0:23

   Cold open: hunting trophies and going live on-air

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      From wild pig.

   2. FGForrest Griffin0:00

      Or a boar or something, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Yeah. My buddy from, uh, Australia gave me those and that head. It's a Asian water buffalo. It's an invasive species, and-

   4. DFDr. Duncan French0:10

      We are live. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Are we live?

   6. DFDr. Duncan French0:11

      Yes, it worked.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Oh, it worked. Jesus Christ. Ladies and gentlemen, the UFC Performance Institute boys.

   8. DFDr. Duncan French0:16

      Hey, hey. What's up?

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Right, Duncan, Forrest Griff- hey, Forrest Griffin. Good to see you.

   10. FGForrest Griffin0:20

       We've already talked over each other, so-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       Yeah.

   12. FGForrest Griffin0:21

       ... we've already blown it.

   13. DFDr. Duncan French0:22

       Geez.

2. 0:23 – 1:37

   Why the UFC Performance Institute impressed Rogan

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      No, we've got it. We, we've got it nailed. Um, well, I'm really glad you guys are here because I've, I was blown away when I went to visit the, you know, you hear the Performance Institute and you go, "Well, what is this going to be like?" And you go there and you're like, "Oh my God, they thought of everything." It's like the ultimate state-of-the-art facility for training, for recovery, for, for nutrition. It's fucking amazing. I mean, I was, I was so happy that-

   2. FGForrest Griffin0:44

      All right, we're, we're s- we're posting, we're posting a link to that shit right there.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:45

      Say it.

   4. DFDr. Duncan French0:46

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:46

      Dude, I mean, it's, it's amazing. When, when we went on tour and checked that place out, uh, I think, was it with- DellaGrasse was with me?

   6. FGForrest Griffin0:52

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      Yeah.

   8. DFDr. Duncan French0:53

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:54

      We were like, "Holy shit." Like, can you imagine? You have access to this fucking place?

   10. DFDr. Duncan French0:58

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Like, you guys have really created something special. It's very interesting and, and, and I don't know much about other sports, but I know this never really existed in combat sports before. Something like this that's... I mean, you guys have athletes from all sorts of different walks of life come through there. When I was there, there was many, many, uh, top level fighters-

   12. DFDr. Duncan French1:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       ... that were training out of there. It's really, really interesting.

   14. DFDr. Duncan French1:16

       Yeah, cool. Well, well, we appreciate the kind words, obviously. Um, I mean, ultimately, yeah, the, the, the vision of the UFC was to build a Performance Institute that was truly a, uh, a world-class high performance center that had everything that fighters would, would need. Um, but not only are we trying to, uh, align ourselves as the leaders in mixed martial arts, but certainly leaders, uh, in human high performance. So-

3. 1:37 – 3:14

   Meet the leadership: performance philosophy and performance nutrition

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:37

      Yeah. Duncan, tell people what you do there. Like, explain around-

   2. DFDr. Duncan French1:39

      Yeah, so my, my role is the Vice President of Performance. Um, I essentially, um, direct the, the, the philosophy of how we're going to interact with the fighters, how we're going to support the fighters, and obviously manage n- our, our world class staff that are, that are working within the performance facility.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:55

      Right.

   4. DFDr. Duncan French1:55

      And Clint, you, you came from a background in, uh, amateur wrestling.

   5. CWClint Wattenberg1:59

      Yep.

   6. DFDr. Duncan French2:00

      And, uh, tell everybody, like, what your job is over there.

   7. CWClint Wattenberg2:02

      Yep. So I'm the Director of Performance Nutrition. So anything related to feeding of athletes g- is essentially managed by myself and, and our ever expanding team. So it, it can be as broad as working with athletes for their general training plan, integrating within the, the other performance services, as well as feeding athletes on the ground, integrating within our kitchen at, at the Performance Institute, um, supporting athletes as they prepare for, for fight week, weight descents, et cetera. And then supporting athletes on fight week and, and pre- preparing at that, even at the last moment of fight day to fuel up and to be really well fueled for, for their performance. My background is, like he said, in amateur wrestling. I, I wrestled and coached at Cornell University. Um, graduated in '03. W- was on the US National Team with a number of actually cur- current fighters right now, so Cormier, Daniel Cormier and a number of other athletes. Chris Weidman and some others and I, uh, used to train together. Um, and then I, I went back to school and got all my, my credentialing, uh, to be a registered dietician. And so that's kinda led me, uh, through developing a program at Cornell to the UFC, uh, with a, you know, pretty unique combination of the nutrition, the dietetics, uh, and, and then obviously the experience in, in combat sports and weight cutting.

4. 3:14 – 6:29

   Why wrestling creates a different kind of athlete

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:14

      Yeah, and in my opinion, the most grueling combat sport. I mean, I think wrestling is just... We, we talked about it on the last podcast. It's just, it's a crazy way for a kid to learn hard work and to learn real competition and the s- the, the actual physical struggle of getting through wrestling practice and strength and conditioning drills. M- v- most kids that are coming up in high school and in college, they, they don't really work that hard in any other sport. I mean, it's, it's a crazy sport.

   2. FGForrest Griffin3:38

      I remember in high school, like, walking into the wrestling room and it's a bunch of gross dudes-

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:42

      (laughs)

   4. FGForrest Griffin3:42

      ... like, in a sweaty, hot room. And then it was like basketball was right next to it. I walked next to the basketball. There's like dudes-

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:48

      Mm-hmm.

   6. FGForrest Griffin3:48

      ... in tank tops and some, like, cheerleaders. I'm like, "I know what I'm doing."

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:52

      (laughs)

   8. DFDr. Duncan French3:52

      (laughs)

   9. FGForrest Griffin3:52

      I'm not an idiots. Uh, little did I know.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:56

       Yeah.

   11. DFDr. Duncan French3:56

       Little did you know.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:57

       Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, in my opinion still, I think it's the most important skill, because you get to dictate-

   13. FGForrest Griffin4:01

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:02

       ... where the fight takes place. I mean, there's no one skill that really overpowers all except for the ability to hold a guy down. Like, the ability to hold someone down and control them on the ground, it's so critical. And everything else you can learn from that. Submissions, ground and pound, but the, the, the difference in, like, an elite wrestler like yourself and a person who doesn't have that skill, it's, it's so hard to bridge that gap. You know?

   15. FGForrest Griffin4:23

       It's hard to learn later in life.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:24

       Yes, mm-hmm.

   17. FGForrest Griffin4:25

       GSP is one of the few people that's just like, "I'll just take this up and be amazing at it."

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:28

       (laughs)

   19. FGForrest Griffin4:28

       "'Cause I'm GSP, and then I'll become a gymnast. Who knows?"

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:31

       I think that's the thing with him, though. He had such physical abilities.

   21. FGForrest Griffin4:34

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:34

       We were talking about this, uh, almost on the last podcast as well that he used to do that karate blitz.

   23. FGForrest Griffin4:39

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       You know, so he was, he was so used to that lunging in stuff that he sort of incorporated that with a blast double. And he's so physically strong and such a smart dude and so, uh, so good at learning things that he just figured out the te- the, the, the essential techniques that he needed to master and just got better and better at them.

   25. CWClint Wattenberg4:56

       Way back in the day, obviously, UFC 1 was kind of a discipline versus discipline, uh, kind of grudge match. And, and having been a lifelong wrestler, that's when I started tuning in, actually, and taking pride in all the wrestlers-

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:08

       Right.

   27. CWClint Wattenberg5:08

       ... taking names and, and growing within the sport. And obviously with the evolution of the sport, um, it, it, it's, it's a different dynamic. And obviously each athlete coming from their own discipline is really fun for us to work with as practitioners having their own kind of sport culture. But wrestling is, uh, obviously a core component to what each athlete's doing. And when I'm working with athletes and talking through their weekly training plan and, you know, how to feed and fuel for each of these types of training sessions and hearing them bitch about how hard those wrestling practices are-

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:37

       (laughs)

   29. CWClint Wattenberg5:37

       ... I, I always get a little bit of, little bit of pride there. Like, yes, it is hard and imagine doing it for eight months straight for a college wrestling season and, and grind that out. But it's, it's definitely, uh, been fun for me to watch wrestling as a component of MMA grow and, and be able to c- contribute to, uh, to, to the sport on a, on a few different kind of levels.

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       Yeah, I mean, I think the way I've always looked at it is pressure makes diamonds. You know, there's, there's no other way.... y- those, those, uh, those-
5. 6:29 – 7:06

   MMA as the “decathlon” and identifying the weakest link

   1. FGForrest Griffin6:29

      I mean, we... uh, at the Performance Institute, we, we always talk about martial ar- mixed martial arts-

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:33

      Mm-hmm.

   3. FGForrest Griffin6:33

      ... as the decathlon of combat sports.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:35

      Yeah.

   5. FGForrest Griffin6:36

      Um, and I think, you know, our philosophy is to try and understand all the respective components that makes a world-class MMA fighter.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:42

      Yeah.

   7. FGForrest Griffin6:42

      Um, I think, you know, if you're in the UFC, you've got some certain X-factors, um, that, that allow you to be world-class, and, you know, wrestling is, is a huge component of that. Um, but what we try to do is understand limitations as well.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:54

      Mm-hmm.

   9. FGForrest Griffin6:55

      Because in a decathlon, you're only ever as good as your weakest event, right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:58

       Right.

   11. FGForrest Griffin6:58

       So, if you're a striker, if you're a grappler, or if you're a w- a wrestler, um, you know, we're, we're trying to support each of those to understand how we can elevate the whole thing.

6. 7:06 – 11:26

   What UFCPI does (and does NOT do): support without game-planning

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:06

      Now, how much input do you put into fighters, if any, into how they incorporate their skills and, like, how they combine their skills together?

   2. FGForrest Griffin7:14

      'Cause-

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:14

      Do you guys offer, like, coaching on technique and approaches? Okay. So, yeah. Let me... Yeah. So, break down the philosophy. We don't do sports-specific coaching, so physical therapy, sports nutrition, uh, strength and conditioning, sports science, and then Duncan oversees all those to make sure-

   4. FGForrest Griffin7:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:31

      ... that they work. All right? So, our philosophy, anything that doesn't make you in the... better in the octagon is pretty pointless. So, what, what I do is I just go over what your training schedule looks like with you, and then, you know, w- where do we feed accordingly for this practice? You know, what... And then Roman, our sports scientist, when can you be recovered enough for this practice? And that's-

   6. DFDr. Duncan French7:51

      Mm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:52

      ... you know, that's the philosophy. So it's not specific. If you think about it, if you guys are fighting and the Performance Institute is working with both of you, we'd make you as big, strong, healthy, have the easiest time making weight, go into your fight as fueled as you can. But if I start saying, "Hey, you know what? H- he, I, I... He's, he's pretty susceptible to leg kicks," then it becomes, you know-

   8. DFDr. Duncan French8:13

      Hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:13

      ... now we can't support every athlete.

   10. DFDr. Duncan French8:15

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:15

       So, when you talk to people it's just like, "Here's how to get the most out of your practices," right? "Here's the way to lay this out, to..." just your training blocks. I don't think a lot of people understand, like, basic training periodization leading up to a fight. And then that's the other problem with the UFC, you don't always have 8 weeks, 10 weeks-

   12. DFDr. Duncan French8:32

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:32

       ... 12 weeks. Sometimes you got four weeks and it's like, "All right. Well, where's your, where's your weight? Where are you at? Where's your skill? Where's your conditioning? How can we put those things together in time to get you ready on..." You know. But never specific, like, i- i- instruction on how to deal- No.

   14. DFDr. Duncan French8:48

       Never.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:49

       That's, um... It's almost like... Uh, for a, for a young fighter to have the access, first of all, just the access to the, the physical facility, like, the, the... just all the different modalities you guys-

   16. FGForrest Griffin9:01

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:02

       ... have and, you know, the strength and conditioning stuff and the, the fact that you can... One of the most impressing things, impressive things, was the camera set up around the octagon so that you could film sparring sequences and technique sequences, and the fighter, you can back 'em up and rewind them and watch it, and you can say, "Oh, see how you drop your leg here? See how your, you know, your, your chin is up in the air?" And all these different, different little factors you can-

   18. FGForrest Griffin9:23

       Well, if you think about the philosophy, right? You have to get close to game speed once or twice a week. So for 15, 25 minutes you're gonna get... you're gonna risk injury, you're gonna take physical damage that you're not getting paid for. Make the most out of it, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:35

       Mm.

   20. FGForrest Griffin9:35

       Like, review it, treat it like a fight. Think about our athletes, they fight two to four times a year, so that's, that's a very limited amount of actual footage they have. But if you start recording your sparring sessions and treating them like a, like a fight, like, "Oh, shit, I did this wrong, I did that wrong," then you're gonna end up with more like 80, 90, which is, you know, baseball, basketball, even football, you got 20-plus games to, you know, review.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:57

       Yeah. And I think it's really important for young fighters also to see themselves doing certain techniques. Like, they might not notice... They might think they look better than they do.

   22. FGForrest Griffin10:05

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:05

       Like, "It's good."

   24. FGForrest Griffin10:06

       "My coach is full of shit, man."

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:07

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. FGForrest Griffin10:07

       And then you... Uh, the film don't lie.

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:09

       And you're like, "Yeah. Oh, okay, I see what I'm doing wrong there."

   28. FGForrest Griffin10:11

       Right, right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:11

       It's hard sometimes to mimic, you know, without, without actually seeing yourself. Now, you guys... You, you've been Forrest Griffin, former UFC... champion of the motherfucking world. Uh, no one can ever take that from you, sir. How's that feel? It's a beautiful thing to have.

   30. DFDr. Duncan French10:24

       It's good. Yeah. Sure, yeah.
7. 11:26 – 14:03

   Recovery readiness and OmegaWave: objective vs subjective feedback

   1. FGForrest Griffin11:26

      He, he, he needs more high-end work or, you know, whatever. Everybody's a little physically different. Y- the key is to get some sub- objective feedback to know, "Hey, all right, I'm in the red. I'm, I'm good, I'm not."

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:38

      Right.

   3. FGForrest Griffin11:38

      You know?

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:38

      Do you do... do you guys do it on heart rate?

   5. FGForrest Griffin11:41

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:41

      Heart rate variability? Like, how, when you disc- determine whether or not someone's recovered enough to-

   7. FGForrest Griffin11:45

      Tell them about Omega Wave.

   8. DFDr. Duncan French11:46

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:46

      (laughs)

   10. FGForrest Griffin11:47

       Tell 'em.

   11. DFDr. Duncan French11:47

       Yeah, I mean there's, there's plenty-

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:48

       Give 'em something new.

   13. DFDr. Duncan French11:48

       ... of different ways to do it. Uh, the most, the, the most basic level is just speaking to a guy and getting subjective feedback, right? "How are you feeling?" is one of the best questions that we can ask a- an athlete.

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:57

       Mm-hmm.

   15. DFDr. Duncan French11:57

       But, um, yeah, I mean, we're, we're blessed and we're privileged with pretty high resource at the UFC Performance Institute. So we have some pretty, um, involved technologies. One of the ones that we use is, is, is a system called Omega Wave. Um, that gives us real insight and removes the subjectivity, where it can get objective understanding around physiology, particularly looking at, um, the DC potential of the brain. So, really-

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:19

       DC? What is that?

   17. DFDr. Duncan French12:19

       Yeah, that's... The DC potential-

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       Never heard of it.

   19. DFDr. Duncan French12:20

       ... of the brain is an assessment of the autonomic nervous system.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:23

       (sighs)

   21. DFDr. Duncan French12:23

       Yeah.So, the- i- if you look at- if you look at the parasympathetic and sympathetic balance of your body, we're talking science now, I apologize, but-

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:32

       No, please.

   23. DFDr. Duncan French12:32

       ... u- ul- ult- ultimately that's one of the things that's-

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:34

       No, sure.

   25. DFDr. Duncan French12:34

       ... that's really impacted... There you go.

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       Jamie pulled something up on the screen here.

   27. DFDr. Duncan French12:38

       That's- that was John Smith, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan12:38

       And you can see the, uh, windows of trainability.

   29. DFDr. Duncan French12:41

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan12:41

       This is fascinating.
8. 14:03 – 16:54

   Building a roster-wide database: journals, benchmarking, and comparisons

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:03

      So, y- you guys have been doing this now for how many years?

   2. DFDr. Duncan French14:07

      We're coming up on two years on May 22nd is, uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:09

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DFDr. Duncan French14:09

      ... is our second anniversary.

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:11

      And do you, do you have, like, a, a log of all the different cases you've worked with so you can kind of review, like, what methods were more effective than others, and you're constantly trying to improve this protocol, or-

   6. DFDr. Duncan French14:21

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:21

      ... how do you guys, how do you guys write it all out?

   8. DFDr. Duncan French14:23

      I mean, we've obviously been involved with numerous fight camps, um, but we're also working with fighters that are not in camp. Um, last year, we, we presented this, um, journal, our first journal, which is a, an overview, a cross-section of all the data that we accrued in our first 12 months, um, and we continue to aggregate that data. Now, one of the privileges that we have at the institute is we get the opportunity to work with just under 600 fighters on our roster, um, so we can create real, clear, cross-sectional awareness of what different weight classes look like, what the challenges are to a fighter. Um, and then, you know, the, the fighters can compare and contrast themselves against their immediate peers in their weight class. So that's one of the most powerful benchmarking tools you can create.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:03

      This omega wave technology, can people buy that? Is that-

   10. DFDr. Duncan French15:06

       Oh, yeah. It's just a commercial product off the shelf, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:08

       And it w- itled like it worked off an app? Like, you, you put an app on your phone?

   12. DFDr. Duncan French15:11

       Yep, yep, yep.

   13. FGForrest Griffin15:12

       It does everything.

   14. DFDr. Duncan French15:13

       Yep.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:13

       Seems like it.

   16. FGForrest Griffin15:14

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:14

       Seems like that's the future.

   18. DFDr. Duncan French15:15

       Yeah. Uh, but again, we, we use many different types of technologies, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       Yeah, sure, sure.

   20. DFDr. Duncan French15:18

       You know, things like force plates-

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:20

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DFDr. Duncan French15:20

       ... can, can look at neuromuscular responses, um, some of our nutrition variables-

   23. FGForrest Griffin15:25

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DFDr. Duncan French15:25

       ... will change across time. So it's not just one tool that is giving us all the answers. The, the windows of trainability concept is something that really helps us on a day-to-day basis to understand, can you go into a strength or power type session today and really maximize the opportunity to create the adaptations? Another day, your endure- it might be an endurance emphasis. So what it allows us to do is just give, give kind of kudos and credence to the athlete to understand where's the best approach and where you're gonna optimize your responses.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       Mm-hmm.

   26. FGForrest Griffin15:51

       Every other sport is easier to train for than MMA. If you think about it, I was a defensive end in high school. Every defensive end needs the same physical abilities.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       Mm-hmm.

   28. FGForrest Griffin15:59

       You think about the, uh, combine, the NFL combine, for instance. They've figured out over a million years what they want to test for. And like, the, the guys that, that, you know, they, they run the same, they jump the same, and per position, right? So quarterbacks don't need to necessarily be that fast if they can throw, right? But for everybody else, the numbers are kind of the same for our sport, and they've collected, I don't know, I don't know how many data points at this point.

   29. DFDr. Duncan French16:23

       Oh, over 100,000.

   30. FGForrest Griffin16:23

       But it's a lot. So they're anonymized, normalized, so you know what average looks like, what... You know, so you can give a guy like Anthony Smith, say, "Hey, look man, if..." And I bring him up because he's mentioned it before.
9. 16:54 – 23:55

   Weight classes, “tweeners,” and objective decisions about moving up/down

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:54

      Do you think they would benefit from more weight classes?

   2. FGForrest Griffin16:57

      Oh, that's a great question. I, I... So, I, I thought, ah, 65, you know? Look at the percentages. And then, you know, I was talking to actually Dana and Sean, and I was like, "Well, this guy's gonna go to 65, this guy's gonna go to 65, everybody's gonna go..." So, are, is it gonna help? I mean, there needs to be a percentage difference, but I, I don't know. I think people would just say, "Well, shit. Now I have to do an extra five pounds." But again, so from a PI standpoint, w- that's not really a decision we have to make. What we need to do is collect as much data-

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:29

      Right.

   4. FGForrest Griffin17:29

      ... as we can on that and-

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:30

      For individual fighters, trying to figure out which weight classes.

   6. FGForrest Griffin17:32

      ... p- uh, and, and then also to pro- provide that information to, you know, third-party commissions.

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:36

      There's just so many, there's the gaps-

   8. FGForrest Griffin17:38

      I'm so PR these days, aren't I? I'm so cut.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:38

      You're very PR. It's okay, I, I, I know what you're doing.

   10. FGForrest Griffin17:41

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:41

       Like when you go from 85 to 205, that's 20 pounds.

   12. FGForrest Griffin17:45

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       That is an enormous jump. So how do you decide, like, when a guy's a tweener? Like how do you look at a guy who maybe weighs 215, and you go, "Damn, dude."?

   14. FGForrest Griffin17:52

       That, those, the numbers. Like, what's your power?

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:55

       Yeah.

   16. FGForrest Griffin17:55

       What's your speed?

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:56

       Mm-hmm.

   18. FGForrest Griffin17:56

       Like, are you a good athlete for that weight class, huh?

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       Right.

   20. FGForrest Griffin17:59

       Maybe not. Y- what's your arm length? How does that... You know, how does your arm length and the way you fight, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. FGForrest Griffin18:05

       So, you know, if you're a Tyson-esque guy, you can have short arms and you wrestle kind of like a Gray Maynard style, right?

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:10

       Mm-hmm.

   24. FGForrest Griffin18:10

       That's fine. You don't need super long arms. But, you know, if you're not a wrestler, you don't have the head move... Maybe you do. Anyway. W- we've actually had a number of athletes, I would say over the last year, come to us specifically, and sometimes it's matchmakers who are saying, "Hey, this guy wants to go down. Come, come take a look."

   25. CWClint Wattenberg18:25

       ... meet with the PI staff, see what, see what you guys think. Um, all those things that Forrest said are, are really valid. We, we do have a lot of be- uh, battery of tests both in the nutrition space, around body composition, around metabolic, um, function. Uh, oftentimes bad weight cuts will diminish and depress the metabolic rate, the resting metabolic rate, as well as, as it progresses over time through, through training. Um, and then, like we said, some of the energy systems, a lot of the strength and power diagnostics. How does an athlete compare to the, the, the norms and the standards that are set for that division? So first things that... First thing that I look at is how, how does, how does their body fit into a division? Uh, everybody's body is broken into three components, if you think about it in terms of bone, muscle, and fat. And if somebody's fat-free mass, it's everything except for their, uh, their fat, is n- 90, n- you know, is bigger than 99% of the athletes in that weight division, it's not gonna be a good fit. So a big thing is benchmarking and understanding how somebody's body fits into their division compared to others. So, uh, that, that's kind of step one. Then we look through all these other different metrics to see how they compare, and then we have a conversation. So my job is never, especially working with independent contractors, they can use us or they can, they can not. And we are a resource to consult and to have conversations with them, uh, o- about what makes sense on a scientific level.

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:48

       Can I ask you how that works? Is like, if say if someone like a Henry Cejudo or someone-

   27. CWClint Wattenberg19:52

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan19:52

       ... wants to do his camp-

   29. CWClint Wattenberg19:53

       Yep.

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:53

       ... uh, at the UFC Performance Institute, how wou- would they do? Schedule it with you guys? Tell you, "I'm gonna be here for eight weeks. We've set up camp in Vegas. We'd like to do it at the, at the gym."
10. 23:55 – 30:57

    UFCPI’s model: closest to Olympic systems and portable support

    1. JRJoe Rogan23:55

       Hey, listen man, this is how this show works. It goes off the rails occasionally. Um, it, it is, uh, what, what you guys have set up though is kind of an unprecedented thing in the combat sports world. Like, there's never anything like this for boxing-

    2. FGForrest Griffin24:07

       No, no. It's, it's-

    3. JRJoe Rogan24:07

       ... where boxers can go and-

    4. FGForrest Griffin24:09

       ... it's closest to the Olympic model.

    5. DFDr. Duncan French24:11

       Hmm.

    6. FGForrest Griffin24:11

       So we went around benchmarking, yada yada, 60-plus facilities, and you notice, like, a, a lot of the people that we hired worked with, you know, international and Olympic sports. And that's kind of our athlete model, right? So Olympic athletes, they might go to Colorado Springs for two weeks, or for four months-

    7. DFDr. Duncan French24:27

       Mm-hmm.

    8. FGForrest Griffin24:27

       ... or for a week, um, and do, like, a skills camp or something. For, we, we have the same model. You come in, three, four days, and then go home with, like, a program, you know, a diet, strength conditioning program-

    9. DFDr. Duncan French24:39

       (laughs) .

    10. FGForrest Griffin24:39

        ... PT program, uh, your training load goals, et cetera. So you'd leave with that, right? And then maybe, you know, you can't, you don't wanna move your life to Vegas. You got family, kids back home. So you come out three days every other month, and they can actually monitor and tell you, "This is how your training's going."

    11. DFDr. Duncan French24:54

        Mm.

    12. FGForrest Griffin24:55

        It, it's just, again, just data on whether it, it's working or not working, as opposed to my old boxing coach, "Oh, you're hitting hard today, kid. I don't know what you ate, but it's good. It's working for you."

    13. DFDr. Duncan French25:05

        (laughs)

    14. FGForrest Griffin25:06

        I was like, "I ate cookies last night."

    15. DFDr. Duncan French25:07

        (laughs)

    16. FGForrest Griffin25:07

        Should I just eat cookies every day and punch hard? I don't know.

    17. DFDr. Duncan French25:12

        Yeah, um, the scientific approach of getting those little extra percentage points of improvement is really what it's all about, and it, it could really be the difference. And it's such a crazy sport because it's so wild and unpredictable. And I mean, you could speak to this better than anybody. L- the results may vary, right?

    18. FGForrest Griffin25:30

        Yeah.

    19. DFDr. Duncan French25:30

        It is a wild goddamn sport.

    20. FGForrest Griffin25:32

        I had... One of the best camps I ever had was, uh, Keith Jardine, Dean Gasua.

    21. DFDr. Duncan French25:36

        (laughs)

    22. FGForrest Griffin25:36

        I was fucking amazing in the gym though (laughs) . I was like, "I am so good right now. I'm beating everybody up. This is amazing." But, you know, it was a 14-week camp. Eh, started falling apart at the end. A little much, yeah.

    23. DFDr. Duncan French25:48

        That's the, there's no other sport with as many degrees of freedom as mixed martial arts.

    24. FGForrest Griffin25:51

        Right. In terms of execution?

    25. DFDr. Duncan French25:51

        All right, if you think about... Well, just in sort of-

    26. FGForrest Griffin25:54

        Ways to win.

    27. DFDr. Duncan French25:54

        ... stylistic background, weight classes. Um, you don't even know when Dana's gonna give you a call to the next fight. Let's- Mm-hmm.

    28. FGForrest Griffin26:00

        (laughs)

    29. DFDr. Duncan French26:00

        Let's look at Usain Bolt, right? You, there's a reason why Usain Bolt is a 100-meter champion and he's not the 60-meter champion. All right? Our guys, if, if you look at mixed martial arts, that is 6 to 36 seconds of high-intensity work, followed by two to three times as much low-intensity work, repeated throughout a five-minute round. 77% of fights are won in those high-intensity e- efforts, right? So that's where the fight is won and lost. But you don't know if that six seconds is gonna be the first six seconds of the fight or the last six seconds of the fight. So Usain Bolt knows that he's going 100, 100 meters, all right? Our guys don't know if they need to be the, the, the best starter or the best finisher. So you gotta prepare for everything. Mm-hmm.

    30. FGForrest Griffin26:40

        So all, all these degrees of freedom, these variab- external variable things that come into mixed martial arts make it the most complex sport to figure out and build a structure and a development pathway against.
11. 30:57 – 54:53

    Developing future talent: Shanghai expansion and the missing MMA pathway

    1. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       Now, in terms of when you take fighters and athletes into your Performance Institute, have you guys ever worked with young, junior, like amateur mixed martial artists? Kids that are coming up, and d- do you ever do stuff like that? Show them, like give them a peak at what it's like to see like the world-class fighters?

    2. DFDr. Duncan French31:17

       Well, w- we don't at the Performance Institute in Las Vegas, because we're very much aligned to supporting our current roster.

    3. JRJoe Rogan31:23

       Right.

    4. DFDr. Duncan French31:23

       Um, and it, it's a facility and a philosophy that's been designed to support our current roster. What we're doing in June of this year, however, is opening up a facility in Shanghai, China, um, which will have a completely different business model in terms of that will be very much a developmental program for guys that aren't in the U- currently in the UFC.

    5. JRJoe Rogan31:41

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DFDr. Duncan French31:41

       So obviously we're trying to improve the talent standards in, in China, and, and develop that market and break that new territory. But the mechanism to doing that is gonna be very much through talent development in the Performance Institute. So over there, we will have, um, MMA coaches and grappling coaches and striking coaches. We don't have that in Las Vegas 'cause we're currently working with the guys that are already on the roster.

    7. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       Mm-hmm. Well, it's such a unique sport in the fact that even though it is one thing when you get into the UFC, the paths to get there are so-

    8. DFDr. Duncan French32:08

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       ... widely different. And you really don't know what the right... Well, you, is the Cro Cop path the right way to do it, or is the Daniel Cormier path the right way to do it? No one can say.

    10. DFDr. Duncan French32:17

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan32:17

        And different fighters will win on different nights with different styles. It's the, one of the only sports where your pathway in, you could say that if someone is an elite kickboxer or an elite grappler-

    12. DFDr. Duncan French32:28

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JRJoe Rogan32:28

        ... that going in with that one major advantage in that one skill set could, uh, p- could take you very, very far versus an overall game approach that some guys have where they're really good at everything.

    14. DFDr. Duncan French32:40

        Mm-hmm. Right, and the true specialist, if you look at the day, the true specialist, the GSPs of this world, still hasn't necessarily risen to the top in the sport of MMA. You still see guys that are stylistically... They have a stylistic emphasis, and that's their X factor that keeps them at the top of the game.

    15. JRJoe Rogan32:54

        Yeah, and, and then there's execution-

    16. DFDr. Duncan French32:56

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan32:56

        ... with the, which is creativity and their ability to perform under pressure, their ability to maintain their cool during camp where they never overtrain and they, they stay in a good space-

    18. DFDr. Duncan French33:06

        Right.

    19. JRJoe Rogan33:06

        ... they stay in a good head space, don't have girlfriend problems or boyfriend problems. And then they get to the final night of the competition with the most in the tank. And that's a, that's an art in and of itself, right?

    20. DFDr. Duncan French33:16

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan33:17

        Some, some, when you first asked about, you know, something I've seen that I love, uh, training partners, right? So bring your training partners to the UFCPI, and we've had, I don't know, six, seven, eight guys that came in as training partners and are now on the UFC roster.

    22. DFDr. Duncan French33:32

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan33:32

        So that's, that's why I'm not an asshole to anyone.

    24. DFDr. Duncan French33:34

        That's beautiful.

    25. JRJoe Rogan33:35

        'Cause you never know. (laughs)

    26. CWClint Wattenberg33:36

        It's also you, you get the chance to see these... I mean, every guy has to start somewhere, every girl has to start somewhere. You get a chance to see these people that may- maybe never get this invitation there, and they see the holy ground. They're like, "God, damn, I'm at the UFC Performance Institute."

    27. DFDr. Duncan French33:49

        Well, to your point, too, about the facility, world-class facility, the, the services, we would argue, are even better than the facility. But training partners, coaches, those that are on the Contender Series, those that came through for The Ultimate Fighter-

    28. JRJoe Rogan34:02

        Ultimate Fighter, yeah.

    29. DFDr. Duncan French34:02

        ... they've all been able to use and to access the facility in short periods. Training partners can come and access the facility, eat on campus, um, strength train with the UFC athlete, use the facility upstairs and, and, and train in the MMA space. And when they get the chance, th- when they get the shot, then they tap right into services. And, and, and it, it's an opportunity for us to o- you know, essentially influence the community even before we're working with them directly, which is, which is a really huge component of our, our philosophy and, and really what we're looking to accomplish.

    30. JRJoe Rogan34:32

        I- I would also, I think it would be massively inspirational for the fighters, too, the young guys that are coming through.
12. 54:53 – 1:02:59

    Nutrition strategy in camps: metabolic efficiency, carbs for intensity, and keto questions

    1. JRJoe Rogan54:53

       Yeah, I would imagine. That's a big difference. Now, you helped them organize their weight cuts. I know you worked with, uh-

    2. CWClint Wattenberg54:58

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan54:58

       ... Kamaru Usman for his, uh, cut for his last fight.

    4. FGForrest Griffin55:00

       Okay.

    5. CWClint Wattenberg55:01

       So, so with Kamaru, we, we, we absolutely worked with him all the way through... all the way through the fight.

    6. JRJoe Rogan55:06

       Did you guys know he had a broken foot?

    7. CWClint Wattenberg55:08

       Uh, he was limping around, but we, you know-

    8. FGForrest Griffin55:10

       No, we didn't. And if we did, we wouldn't have mentioned it. But no, I had no idea.

    9. CWClint Wattenberg55:14

       And, and-

    10. JRJoe Rogan55:15

        How crazy is that guy? Yeah.

    11. FGForrest Griffin55:16

        Hey, he, I did not... You know, that's good. That's awesome. I, I was actually happy he was in the building for... the whole time.

    12. JRJoe Rogan55:23

        Yeah.

    13. FGForrest Griffin55:23

        And I didn't know that. I was happy. I was like, "Yes, good."

    14. JRJoe Rogan55:26

        (laughs)

    15. CWClint Wattenberg55:26

        Good job there.

    16. FGForrest Griffin55:27

        What, what happens in the walls stays in these walls. 'Cause, if, if there's this place like the Performance Institute and it's run by the UFC, oh, the, the UFC that, that pays me to fight people, I'm worried that that's gonna get to them.

    17. JRJoe Rogan55:39

        Right.

    18. CWClint Wattenberg55:39

        Right, of course. Especially if you want to go through it like he did.

    19. FGForrest Griffin55:40

        And so, that was one of the things when we started this. Like, I don't want to know. Like, I'm the, the liaison from them to the other side of the half. I don't want to know whose weight is what. I don't want to know who's got a nagging injury. That's your, you know... Some of that is actually HIPAA, you know, information.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:55

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    21. FGForrest Griffin55:55

        That's your private stuff, though. Even if it's just how strong or weak you are, if you're having a bad day, I, I don't, I don't want that to ever get out of our walls, right?

    22. JRJoe Rogan56:03

        Right, right.

    23. FGForrest Griffin56:03

        So that's... Obviously.

    24. JRJoe Rogan56:05

        Yeah.

    25. CWClint Wattenberg56:05

        Yep.

    26. FGForrest Griffin56:05

        You're, you're, you're the conspiracy guy. That's... You know.

    27. JRJoe Rogan56:08

        What does that have to do with conspiracy?

    28. CWClint Wattenberg56:10

        (laughs)

    29. FGForrest Griffin56:10

        (laughs) Yeah, guys always think the UFC is out to get them.

    30. JRJoe Rogan56:13

        Oh, no.
13. 1:02:59 – 1:07:45

    Fight-week execution: Trifecta meal prep and on-site event fueling

    1. FGForrest Griffin1:02:59

       ... the Trifecta fight prep system. You guys on your team are going to 22 events this year.

    2. CWClint Wattenberg1:03:04

       Indeed.

    3. FGForrest Griffin1:03:04

       Take, take it away.

    4. CWClint Wattenberg1:03:05

       All right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:03:06

       What are you doing? (laughs)

    6. FGForrest Griffin1:03:07

       (laughs)

    7. CWClint Wattenberg1:03:07

       So-

    8. FGForrest Griffin1:03:08

       I'm shooting a promo here, Joe. Step back. (laughs)

    9. CWClint Wattenberg1:03:10

       (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:03:11

        (laughs)

    11. CWClint Wattenberg1:03:11

        So essentially, we're assessing and then we're programming based on each athlete's needs. So, um, like Forrest said, o- o- one of our most valuable partners at the UFC Performance Institute is this comp- meal prep company, uh, called Trifecta Nutrition. And, and they, uh, essentially have a all organic meal line that can be, uh, developed a la carte, uh, ordered a la carte. And so with Kamaru as an example, we worked together for his past two fights. And, and many athletes, like I said, uh, are, are not fueling the type of training in a way that leads to their long-term adaptation, but can lead to overtraining earlier in camp. And so what, what we really w- wanna do is to understand how that physiology works and then program, and then provide those athletes with the nutrition, whether it's on site at, at, at the UFC Performance Institute-

    12. FGForrest Griffin1:04:00

        At the actual... Well, at the events as well, is what I was getting at. Like, 22 events they go to. So you think about, like, I would, you know, I would literally smuggle oatmeal into Brazil. Like, you're, I'm, like, stealing food. (laughs) You know, they, they're like, the, you get the, you know, the little thing that says no organic, the little pass.

    13. CWClint Wattenberg1:04:15

        Mm-hmm.

    14. FGForrest Griffin1:04:16

        Uh, they can go to those fights and actually feed you throughout the week through that system.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:20

        Oh, wow.

    16. FGForrest Griffin1:04:21

        That's where I was going with that.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:22

        Yeah. So that's-

    18. CWClint Wattenberg1:04:22

        Sorry.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:04:22

        So that's-

    20. FGForrest Griffin1:04:23

        Also-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:04:23

        ... incredible. So they would, like-

    22. FGForrest Griffin1:04:24

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:04:24

        ... if you had a fight in Stockholm, they would come to Stockholm with, like-

    24. FGForrest Griffin1:04:27

        If, if it's one of the 22 events.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:04:29

        Oh, okay.

    26. FGForrest Griffin1:04:30

        So-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:04:30

        But if it's one of those-

    28. CWClint Wattenberg1:04:31

        Half. More than half.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:04:31

        ... 22 events, they would go and you could get the UFCPI to fuel you through the entire event?

    30. CWClint Wattenberg1:04:37

        Yep. So there, there, there's a, a number of levels. So I'll, I'll get there in just one sec, but essentially, we'll take them through the fight camp, fuel them t- for adaptation so they show up to the event. We know exactly where they are, they're fueled, and then we could take them all the way through the fight. So 22 events, most are domestic except for some, the pay-per-views that are, that are international. So of, of the 22, the only international ones are the pay-per-views. The others are the ESPN events, and those are pretty much exclusively domestic. But what we, what we've done is we've outreached all of the athletes that have crossed paths with us at the Performance Institute. So it's not, it's, it's not roster-wide yet, as we're working through a lot of the operational stuff. As an example, uh, we aren't able to get into the kitchen at every hotel. So then we're w- working t- to find a community kitchen, trying to find contacts at local universities.

Episode duration: 1:49:56