JRE MMA Show #78 with Andre Ward

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (music) …

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (music)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Two, one, boom. (book slams) Andre Ward, ladies and gentlemen. How are you, brother?

   3. AWAndre Ward0:05

      I'm good, man. How you doing?

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Thank you very much for doing this, man. I'm a big fan, so I was very excited to do this.

   5. AWAndre Ward0:09

      Appreciate you having me.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      You did it. In terms of, like, if you're a young fighter and you got aspirations, what do you wanna do? You wanna be an Olympic gold medalist, you wanna win multiple world titles, two division world champion-

   7. AWAndre Ward0:21

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      ... and you retired undefeated. You, you're the w- one, you're like a unicorn, man.

   9. AWAndre Ward0:27

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       You're a rare dude because-

   11. AWAndre Ward0:29

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       ... you retired at 35, right?

   13. AWAndre Ward0:31

       33.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       33.

   15. AWAndre Ward0:32

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       That's crazy. Like, you're in the peak of your athletic abilities and you go, "You know what? (smacks lips) Did enough."

   17. AWAndre Ward0:39

       I'm out.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Yeah.

   19. AWAndre Ward0:42

       I mean, it, it sound, it sounds all neat and buttoned up, uh, but it wasn't, it wasn't that easy. Like, I, I didn't know how things were gonna go throughout the course of my career. Um, but for whatever reason, like, I always, even as a young kid, and I'm talking 10 years old, like, I had this thought, like, you know, "I don't wanna end up like a lot of fighters end up." Like, they seem to go high, really high, and then all of a sudden they come crashing down. Like, they start well, but they don't end well.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       Yeah.

   21. AWAndre Ward1:09

       And that's what, that's what drew me to Roy Jones Jr. Um, country boy, had swag, and he'd always talk about himself in the third person. He'd be like, "Man, you know, Roy Jones, I don't," you know-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       (laughs)

   23. AWAndre Ward1:18

       "... I don't love the sport like that, man. I'ma get in and get out. I'm just special at it and I'ma be fishing on my farm one, you know, one day in Pensacola, Florida." And I was like, "Man, this dude is different. Fighters don't talk like that."

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       Hmm.

   25. AWAndre Ward1:28

       So he was the first one that gave me the thought of getting in and getting out. And then, again, I just, I just studied it throughout the course of my career. Even other athletes and entertainers, like I just, I was enamored by it. So that was always a goal. Just as much as I wanted to win a gold medal, world championship, I wanted to leave on top when people were asking, "Why are you leaving?"

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:47

       Yeah. Well, it's so difficult to make that decision, though. For f- so, I mean, Roy Jones Jr didn't even make that decision.

   27. AWAndre Ward1:53

       He didn't.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:54

       He said he was gonna do it and then, I mean, he had some rough knockouts. It was-

   29. AWAndre Ward1:58

       Late in his career.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:00

       Yeah, hard to watch.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   It's... You know, when…

   1. AWAndre Ward15:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      It's... You know, when you think about a, a career as a heavyweight fighter, too, and all the heavy blows that that guy took.

   3. AWAndre Ward15:07

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      Whatever mental problems he might have had were certainly compounded by-

   5. AWAndre Ward15:10

      That didn't help. No.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      (laughs) No, no, no, no. You know, you, uh, you had an amazing career, but one of the things that I think maybe people aren't as aware of is what makes your career even more incredible, is that you fought for a long time with a bad shoulder.

   7. AWAndre Ward15:25

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      Like, if you go back and watch the Carl Froch fight, I watched that in getting ready for this. I'll watch it again. You box the shit out of him with mostly your left hand.

   9. AWAndre Ward15:34

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:35

       It was crazy.

   11. AWAndre Ward15:36

       Yeah. 12 years old, tore my subscapularis, um, which is 50... Is responsible for 50% of the strength in a rotator. Um, didn't really know it at the time. We were told, "Hey, he's too young. You know, he shouldn't have surgery, just rehab it." Wrong advice. Found that out, you know, 10 years later. But we just rehabbed it with, you know, bands and strengthening exercises, but we never had surgery. So, that was always kind of my Achilles heel, man. Like, I... It, it's been plenty of fights where I just fought one-handed, because it didn't feel strong. It didn't feel, like, safe. I felt like any time I would throw it, it could pop out of the socket. Like, that's how it felt.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       So, it had popped out before?

   13. AWAndre Ward16:16

       It had not.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Oh, but it felt like it could.

   15. AWAndre Ward16:19

       But it felt like it could. Um, got it fixed right around 2013, and- and it wasn't 100, but it was better. And I was able to finish out the rest of my career. Um, I got-

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       So, it's still not 100 now?

   17. AWAndre Ward16:29

       It's not 100, but I'll take it. Yeah, I'll take it, bro. Like, I probably gained about 30-40% with that surgery.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Wow.

   19. AWAndre Ward16:35

       Like, they, they grabbed it because the subscapularis was loose. It wasn't attached, but it wasn't atrophied. It was still like a fat, thriving muscle. It just wasn't attached. My doctor was like, "Whoa," like, "has, has this ever popped out of the socket before?" Doctor Michael Dillingham in, in San Francisco. I was like, "Nah." He was like, "How? Like, your shoulder capsule is, like, shot. The subscap is hanging." He said, "But the good news is it's still a thriving muscle. Let's get it attached." Boom, he attached it. Like, a four-hour surgery, something like that. One of those surgeries that you're not guaranteed to come out of the same. Um, and you had to wait for a month or so to see if the surgery took, like, if everything would mend and kind of get, you know, kind of get stronger. It took, man, and- and like I said, I finished out the rest of my career strong.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       Wow, so how long was the rehab?

   21. AWAndre Ward17:15

       Probably about eight months.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:17

       So, you went from... It was about 2012 to 2015 where you didn't fight very often. Is that... Was that because-

   23. AWAndre Ward17:24

       Very infrequently, yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       Was that because of the shoulder?

   25. AWAndre Ward17:26

       Combination of a lawsuit, uh, and the injury.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:29

       Hm.

   27. AWAndre Ward17:29

       Yeah. It was kind of like back-to-back blows.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:31

       So, for eight months, you're rehabing it, and just still... Like, when did you know that for sure you were gonna be able to come back?

   29. AWAndre Ward17:39

       You kind of turn a corner in rehab. You know, three, three-month mark, you know, four-month mark, you kind of realize that, dude, like, I'm, I'm, I'm good. Like, I'm not where I need to be, but, like, I'm, I'm headed there.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:48

       Right.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm. Were you impressed…

   1. AWAndre Ward30:00

      So, you're the Crusher, you're Sergey Kovalev, you knock me down in the second round, not the eleventh, the second round. You were supposed to finish me, sir. The fact that we're even talking about a fight being close, and the fact that I finished the fight, that's bothering you. That, that, that, that's a chi- that, that's, that's chipping away at this whole Crusher thing that you been, that you've been living on. And he couldn't handle it, and instead of owning it, he blamed John David Jackson, he blamed this guy, he blamed that guy. That's a sign of weakness, man, not strength.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:32

      Mm. Were you impressed with him getting through the eighth round against Yarde in his last fight?

   3. AWAndre Ward30:38

      I wouldn't say impressed. I mean, listen, he, he hasn't gotten where he's gotten by not being tough. So, generally speaking, he's tough. He's a tough individual, to a point. I wasn't surprised, I, I was just... I was like, "Dude, if you ever... If a fighter has ever been saved by the bell, you were just saved by the bell." Like, you were a punch or, a punch or two away from getting, you know, getting stopped in your home country and in your home, your home city, hometown. That was the only kinda, like, jarring part of it. Um, and then my next thought was, "Can he recover? Is he gonna be able to physically recover, but then psychologically come back and try to get back what Yarde took from him in that round?" And he did that. So, he showed me that he's still got something in the tank, but he, he, he's, um, he... What's the right way to say it? He's fading fast. Like, he's fading right before our eyes.

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:29

      Mm.

   5. AWAndre Ward31:29

      He doesn't have the reaction, he doesn't have... He's still very good, he still, he still can beat a lot of guys, but he's fading fast. If there's a Canelo fight on the table, I think he should take it and ride off into the sunset, man. Go enjoy your life.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:41

      Well, it was interesting how you exposed him in the second fight, because of the body shots. The body shots have been a weakness, like, since then. Everybody has kind of compromised his body. They've, they've found what you found out. Was that something you knew going into the second fight, or did you know it in the first fight? Like, when, when-

   7. AWAndre Ward31:59

      We knew that in the first fight.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:00

      Did you?

   9. AWAndre Ward32:01

      Problem with me in the, in the first fight, um, first couple rounds I was thinking too much and this dude came out fast. So I'm thinking, like, I'm trying to get my range and he's like, boom, boom, boom. And he's... It's not that he's, like, this crazy power puncher, it's just that he's sharp and he's accurate. So I'm, like, catching shots, I'm getting hit with jabs. I'm trying to figure... He didn't give me a chance to think. And then, boom, I got hit with the right hand and I'm like, "That's it, bro." So that was the best thing that could've happened to me, like I said earlier. And then you saw the body attack get implemented. So that was always the game plan. I won the second fight with everything that I did in the first fight. Like, we unlocked the code in the first fight.

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:38

       Mm.

   11. AWAndre Ward32:38

       But people couldn't get past the knockdown-

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:39

       Right.

   13. AWAndre Ward32:40

       ... they failed to, to look at the, the, you know, the next 10 rounds.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       But, yeah, the next 10 rounds, you started to take over and you were solving this-

   15. AWAndre Ward32:46

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:46

       ... the riddle. It's interesting, the, the, the difference in power punchers. Like, there's levels of power punchers.

   17. AWAndre Ward32:51

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       We always thought of him as this power puncher.

   19. AWAndre Ward32:54

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       Like, 'cause he's the Crusher, he knocked-

   21. AWAndre Ward32:55

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:55

       ... a lot of people out. But then there's, like, a Julian Jackson-

   23. AWAndre Ward32:58

       Different.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:58

       ... level. There's a snap-

   25. AWAndre Ward33:00

       Different.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       ... and then some people just go stiff and-

   27. AWAndre Ward33:02

       George Foreman.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:03

       ... follow up. Yes.

   29. AWAndre Ward33:03

       He, like, like, George could kill you.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       Yes.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   And so when you…

   1. AWAndre Ward45:00

      Area. Boom, drop them off, get on a flight, a red-eye, that night, double ear infection, wake up in Germany. And that was my, that was their second stop, but that was my first stop. And that's when I really got the revelation that, "Man, they, this is a joke." Like, like, this, they think that me, Dirrell and, and, and Taylor, like, we're just going... Like, that's when I took exception, and that was when I really kind of, like, realized that, dude, like, th- this is either... This is gonna be a sink or swim moment for you. Either you gonna get... Like, I could've got ruined in the Super Six. Like, it could've went a whole nother way. Or what I knew was in me was gonna be, you know, displayed an- and- and shown to the world.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:35

      And so when you beat Kessler and you won your first title, that had to be a beautiful moment. I mean-

   3. AWAndre Ward45:42

      Unreal. (blows air) Unreal. Unreal. And it was in my hometown. Like, the same arena, Oracle Arena, where the Warriors had played for many, many years. And I'm kind of salty they're leaving, man. They- they're going-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:52

      (laughs)

   5. AWAndre Ward45:52

      ... to Chase Arena. I'm not happy, man. I'm, I'm not happy. Um, I used to pass by that arena on, uh, Highway 880 going to King's Gym. And I used to look and it'd be, it'd be on the right side, and I'd be like, "Man, Virg, I wonder if I'm gonna fight there one day." He said, "Babe, you fight there, you're gonna headline." I was like, "Really?" I'm talking 12, 13 years old. Wow. Like, "Man, I'm, I'm a headline?" And Kessler's arrogance allowed that fight to take place in my hometown. He had more knockouts than I had victories. Like, "Man, this dude. Like, I'm, I'm not only gonna beat him, I'm gonna beat him in his hometown." Uh, so we fought there, uh, I think it was November 19th. And, uh, just unreal, man. And, like, for a gold medalist, like, like, people don't understand the pressure you have coming into the game. Like, like, everything you do well, you're expected to do well, but if there's one slip-up, now it's like, you know, everybody comes out the woodworks, "Oh, I told you-

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:43

      Yeah.

   7. AWAndre Ward46:43

      ... he wasn't gonna be there." So to get the monkey off my back to win my first title was just... That pressure, like, re- that release of pressure was just immense.

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:52

      I remember when I was a kid when the Olympic team had so many guys that went on to win world champions, like Pernell Whitaker. Was it the '76 Olympic team?

   9. AWAndre Ward47:01

      '84.

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:01

       '84.

   11. AWAndre Ward47:02

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:02

       Uh, Pernell Whitaker, Mark Breland. You know, there was, uh, there was so many guys from that era.

   13. AWAndre Ward47:09

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan47:09

       That was, uh, Meldrik Taylor.

   15. AWAndre Ward47:10

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan47:11

       You know, uh, who else? Who else?

   17. AWAndre Ward47:14

       Uh, Holyfield, Holyfield was there.

   18. JRJoe Rogan47:15

       I think-

   19. AWAndre Ward47:15

       But I think Holyfield got disqualified. He got a silver, I think.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:17

       Right, something happened.

   21. AWAndre Ward47:20

       Um...

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       When you, you think about the amount of pressure that... I mean, so many people were looking at those guys. And I remember when Breland lost to Marlon Starling.

   23. AWAndre Ward47:29

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:29

       He got knocked out by Marlon Starling.

   25. AWAndre Ward47:31

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:31

       I remember so many people were happy.

   27. AWAndre Ward47:32

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:32

       They were happy that he lost. Like, "Oh, another Olympic gold medalist is, you know, we couldn't take." And like, God, first of all, goddamn Marlon Starling was a fucking killer.

   29. AWAndre Ward47:40

       Yeah, beast.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:41

       He was a killer, and just super slick.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:04:31

   Oh. …

   1. AWAndre Ward1:00:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      Oh.

   3. AWAndre Ward1:00:01

      Don't know if it would have been made, we hadn't even gotten that far, but that was our plan.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      Jesus Christ.

   5. AWAndre Ward1:00:06

      Right?

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

      How much would you have gained to get up to heavyweight?

   7. AWAndre Ward1:00:10

      Maybe two.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:12

      That's it?

   9. AWAndre Ward1:00:13

      Maybe two. I can't... I'm never gonna be as big as you guys-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

       Right.

   11. AWAndre Ward1:00:16

       ... so why would I weigh myself down?

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

       Right. Yeah.

   13. AWAndre Ward1:00:18

       Very dangerous situation.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

       Yeah.

   15. AWAndre Ward1:00:20

       You know. Uh, but that was something we were talking about. And Verge mentioned it in the post-fight press conference with Kovalev.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

       That guy is fucking gigantic.

   17. AWAndre Ward1:00:26

       But we hadn't... Me and him... Me and Verge hadn't talked about... Like, we talked about it, but we didn't say we were gonna mention anything publicly.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

       Oh, and then he came out with it. (laughs)

   19. AWAndre Ward1:00:33

       And I'm sitting there... You know, I'm chilling, I just won. I'm like... He's like, "Yeah, we want Anthony Joshua." I'm like-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       (laughs)

   21. AWAndre Ward1:00:37

       Why would you say that, man? Chill, bro, like...

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:41

       He's so much bigger than you.

   23. AWAndre Ward1:00:42

       Yeah, it's all good though.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:43

       That guy is gigantic.

   25. AWAndre Ward1:00:44

       I've been fighting big guys my whole life.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:00:46

       I'm sure you have.

   27. AWAndre Ward1:00:47

       So the three-fight deal was on the table. And Roman Gonzalez, Siritsakai or Si- Siritsakoi, Siritsakai, Sor Rungvisai were getting ready to fight their rematch at the Home Depot Center. Uh, I think it was September 9th. September 6th, that was a Wednesday, I was supposed to be in LA to, you know, announce the- the new signing and get ready to call that fight. That Wednesday, I come home and I'm kind of like... I'm- I'm not boohooing, but I'm in tears. And I tell my wife, I was like, "I don't want to do it anymore." And even saying that f- sounded crazy to me. She was like... She was just real quiet and I'm thinking like, "Why is she not saying nothing?" I was like, "I don't think I want to do this anymore." And she said something she had never said previously. Typically, she's like, "Babe, look, it's not time. Come on, you gotta get up. I know you feel this way, I know you're bi- but come on, you... I feel like you still got time in the sport." First time she ever agreed with me. She was like, "I think the decision is already made, Dre." I was like, "What?" She said, "I think the decision is already made." She said, "I've been looking at you throughout this whole day and some of the stuff you've been saying, and I've never really seen you like this." She said, "I think it's already made." I took that out, bro. Started making phone calls.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:58

       Wow.

   29. AWAndre Ward1:01:58

       Called-called my lawyer who's, you know, one of my good friends, Josh Dubin. I said, "Hey, bro, I think this may be it for me." And he had been wanting me to be, you know, done. He was like, "If you feel that way, bro, I'm gonna support you." Called my manager the next morning. And it took us... So I went- I went- I went that weekend and called the fight. We held off on the announcement. And my lawyer just told HBO like, "Look, he's going through some things. We're good. Give us a couple of days." So I got through that weekend, and he said, "Do you still feel like that come Monday morning?" I was like, "Bro, I think I'm done." Long story short, uh, we ended up announcing it September 21st. It was like a two-week period we were trying to keep it under wraps. But I was undoing all the stuff. I was letting the necessary people know, Roc Nation, HBO, everybody know. And, um, the night before I announced it, man, me and my good friend, um, who's a director, uh, he's also directing my doc, uh, Deonтеa Thompson, he, um... We put together this video. It was like a legacy video where I had my young son, my middle son, and my oldest son, and those were like, those were like, you know... That was me at that point in time in my career. And we did this whole video that I was gonna announce my retirement with. And, um, and I actually have the doc that I'm working on right now is about this, like, why did the best fighter at the world, uh, of the world at that time walk away from the sport on top? Shot that video out, man, the day of my retirement, bro, and the response was just overwhelming. You know, it was overwhelming, like I just couldn't believe the amount of people that were reaching out. And- and it was re- it- it was- it was like good and bad. Like, it was good 'cause I was getting support, but it felt like somebody died, like I felt like I died, bro.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:26

       (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:53:58