JRE MMA Show #99 with Francis Ngannou

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day.

   3. NANarrator0:11

      (Rock music playing)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Welcome, Francis.

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou0:15

      Thank you, Joe. (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      I'm glad we finally did this.

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou0:17

      Oh, finally. It's been a while.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Well, your English- your English has improved drastically.

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou0:22

      Thank you. I think that's why, um, I wanted to st- to wait a little bit before come.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Yeah.

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou0:28

       I'm like, "Well, I'm not sure if I will handle that." You know, sometime I listen to the podcast, and I- like basically when you are talking about different podcasts, different topic, I'm kind of like lost sometime. Like, "Okay, what does this mean? What does that mean?" You know. But now I feel little bo- little bit comfortable.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Yeah. You're much-

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou0:50

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Well, it's easy to talk to you now. I remember when you first went into the UFC, I interviewed you-

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou0:56

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       ... and you didn't know what the fuck I was saying. (laughs)

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou0:58

       Oh, nothing, like... Hey, uh, growing up in c- uh... I went to- to school, like elementary school and co- um, um, middle school, and we were learning English. I know some few words like water and stuff, but just my accent was just so different than when I came here, my first, um, UFC event was in Orlando. And, um, I couldn't even hear people like water. Like, the accent was just so different. I'm like, "What the hell is going on?"

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:30

       (laughs)

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou1:31

       "I can't catch any wo-" You know, it was just crazy.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       How long have you been in America now?

   21. FNFrancis Ngannou1:37

       Uh, three years and half. I mean, uh-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       That- that's pretty impressive that you picked up-

   23. FNFrancis Ngannou1:41

       ... not permanently because I travel a lot, but-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Yeah. Right.

   25. FNFrancis Ngannou1:46

       ... uh, total is like two years and a half.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:48

       And you were in France for how long before that?

   27. FNFrancis Ngannou1:50

       Four years.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:50

       Four years. When you were in Cameroon, what- what language did they speak in Cameroon?

   29. FNFrancis Ngannou1:54

       We speak, mainly we speak French in general, and, uh, just in our village that we speak our dialect.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:01

       Oh, okay. So you know the dialect from the village, and then French-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou15:00

      some point, and that's what I was doing. So that's not, like, a big job, so couldn't have much money, but since I, I was dreaming for boxing so bad, then I sold that to go to the city and, uh, find the boxing, because I'd been dreaming for boxing for over, uh, about 10 years. But, uh, there wasn't a gym, like, 50, 50 miles around, so I decided to sell my bike, my motorcycle, and go to the city. And by the time my family thought I was ... or people around thought I was going crazy. Like, "What the hell?"

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:44

      (laughs)

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou15:44

      Like, "You have a job. You have a chance to have a job, to have a bike. Uh, you can feed yourself and maybe, uh, create your family, your own family, and you say you're going to do this boxing. What the hell is boxing? Did you ever see somebody coming from here to succeed in b- in boxing?" Um, then they would take some example as, such as, uh, people like Ouattara Belleh, Joseph Bessala, you know, Jean-Marie Mbeou, which is people that was a, like, a legend in this, uh, combat sport in Cameroon. But, uh, financially, they didn't succeed, you know. Their, their life wasn't an, a great example to lay on, and that's why people are like, "Okay, those people had a chance to start sport when, when they were young, uh, to have, uh, to be surrounded. You're, like, 22, and you're " I'm like, "I'm going to do boxing." You are old, you're this, that's-

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:42

      You're old at 22.

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou16:43

      Yes. I'm tu-

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:44

      (laughs)

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou16:44

      I'm like, "You're old. It's not possible."

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:46

      (laughs)

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou16:47

      And basically, "Even if you're able to make it as them, what?"

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:52

       Yeah.

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou16:52

       "You can't even feed your family with ..." You know, I'm like, "Yeah. Facts. Point taken. But, you know, I love this shit."

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:01

       (laughs)

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou17:01

       I just gonna try it and, um-

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       So you just had a desire.

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou17:06

       Yeah, I just have a desire, you know. Like, um, I couldn't picture myself doing something else without it. I'm like, "Okay, it might, uh, it might don't work, but I don't wanna live with the regret of, uh, not trying," you know?

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:24

       Mm-hmm.

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou17:24

       I have to try. If I fail, it's okay. I have a right to try and to fail, to start over, as everybody has that right, so I can use my right, you know. I have to try this. At least, if it, uh, if it doesn't work, uh, I won't blame my, blame myself someday that, uh, I should, I should've done this, I should've do this, I should've try. I was just like, "Okay, I give my best." Didn't ... It didn't work, and, um, that's why I, uh, started boxing. And, um, it was so crazy. Everybody around thought I lose my mind. They're- I'm like, "What the hell is that, boxing?" Like, "You're gonna get hit, you're gonna get, uh, sick, you're gonna, you're gonna end up with the Parkinson, your head shaking like this, no money." Like-

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:18

       Mm.

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou18:19

       ... seriously? Take yourself, take your life, uh, seriously. That's not serious." And I'm like, "Yeah."... maybe, but whatever. At the end of the day, what truly matters, you know, at least I will do what I want for some time, what I love. And if it doesn't work, you know, I still have some sort of satisfic- satisfaction of doing it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:44

       D- are you aware that the amount of success that you've achieved has gotta be very inspirational for other people that are in the same sort of situation that you were in? When they hear your story and they know that people around them are questioning their desires too.

   21. FNFrancis Ngannou19:01

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:01

       You took a chance, a lot of chances.

   23. FNFrancis Ngannou19:04

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:05

       And look, here you are about to fight again for the heavyweight championship. I mean, it's a m- a pretty amazing story.

   25. FNFrancis Ngannou19:12

       Thank you. Yes. I mean, I'm aware of that. Um, it didn't take me so long, I mean, after I get, um... after I get in Europe to, uh, realize that because I started to fight, um... to compete in France. And I was, um... they were see- they were seeing me on TV and calling me or texting me like, "Oh, we see somebody on the TV like you, but you have a, uh, dread lock- locks."

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:42

       (laughs)

   27. FNFrancis Ngannou19:42

       "And that guy was exactly like you." You know, I'm like, "Yeah, he might be me." You know? So, uh, after a few fights, I'm like, "Damn, so that your boxing... that your boxing shit was serious. You really like that thing." I'm like, "Yes. Guess what? Yeah, yeah, I am." And they're like, "Man, that mean it's never late. You know, I've been thinking of doing this and I always thought... uh, I always think it's too late, I can't make it, but I think right there, you just proved me wrong because I'm even... I was even closer to my dream than yours and you still, uh, achieve yours. So that mean it's not... it's never late. So let me try out." I'm like, "Yeah, you should." You know, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:30

       Yeah.

   29. FNFrancis Ngannou20:31

       ... what's wrong? I mean, if you, if you fail, it's okay. You have a right. A lot of people fail, uh, over and over before succeed. You al- he always need one shot to succeed.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:42

       But m- most people don't have the confidence to take chances like that. Most people, they, they hear these people saying, "Oh, you're gonna get Parkinson's. You're gonna get sick. You're not gonna make money. You're not gonna be able to feed your family." And they, they listen to those people. Most people listen to the naysayers, they listen to these doubters.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      There had to be like some posi-... It's terrible that you had to do that at 10.

   2. FNFrancis Ngannou30:04

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      But there had to be some positive aspects of it, some positive repercussions of it.

   4. FNFrancis Ngannou30:09

      Oh, definitely. I mean, uh, (clears throat) I didn't like, like my h- life and, uh, I felt... I always feel like I miss my childhood. Like-

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:21

      Mm-hmm.

   6. FNFrancis Ngannou30:21

      ... it's something missing in it because, uh, it's been s- too much, um, frustration-

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:27

      Yeah.

   8. FNFrancis Ngannou30:27

      ... in my life. You know, um, like I had to work by that age and it wasn't enough. Like, uh, when the schoo- when school started, when school starts, all the time, I gonna go to school and most of the time still didn't have a-... pen to take note or a notebook to write on it. Sometime, uh, no shoes or clothes. Just have to wear, like, my, uh, uniform was tear all, all, all over and, um, I was frustrated to look around and see other kids looking good, you know. They went to the vacay- uh, they went in vacation to this family member, came back with all brand new stuff. And I was just there looking crappy with my... Or I had- I had to, like, take my old book and look for empty page to take a note, expecting, hoping that when I have a book, I will copy the note from this year in the new book.

   9. NANarrator31:29

      Mm-hmm.

   10. FNFrancis Ngannou31:29

       But at first, I have to use the... I always had to use the old book. And most of the time, teachers, they don't understand why you don't have a book. They don't understand why you don't have a pen. Sometime, they just think that, uh, you didn't tell your parent. You should, uh, um, tell your parents, so they can buy it for you. They don't understand that you can not just afford it. You know, your parent can't... And, um, they'll kick you out from the classroom.

   11. NANarrator32:00

       Really?

   12. FNFrancis Ngannou32:00

       Maybe just to say, "Go tell your parents." And-

   13. NANarrator32:04

       And you couldn't tell them, "We can't afford it." You didn't wanna say it?

   14. FNFrancis Ngannou32:07

       Then, th- th- um, they knew.

   15. NANarrator32:10

       They knew?

   16. FNFrancis Ngannou32:10

       But what can they do?

   17. NANarrator32:13

       Right.

   18. FNFrancis Ngannou32:13

       Nothing, you know, because most of the time, it's gonna be even with the money that I work, that they're gonna buy my pen or my book.

   19. NANarrator32:20

       Yeah.

   20. FNFrancis Ngannou32:20

       But, uh, you work sometime and y- they don't pay you right away. It's maybe after month, months, you know, so all the process. And sometime, they will just kick you out from the school because of the, um, scholarship fee. Uh, you ha- you haven't paid on time, so they kick you out. So I was a subject, I was subject of shame to other kids.

   21. NANarrator32:46

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   22. FNFrancis Ngannou32:46

       You know, because all the time when they kick you out in front of 50, 60, uh, s- uh, student, it's not a good thing, you know? And, um, I couldn't have a friend because you know how things work. You have to be able to bring something on the table to, uh, enjoy, you know? But since you don't even have a pen or a book to take no- to take note, nobody expect you to, uh, bring a lunch, um, um, lunch or to buy something, uh, in the break, break time, to share with them. So they don't wanna share with you since they don't have any hope that you will share, have something to share with them.

   23. NANarrator33:32

       Mm-hmm.

   24. FNFrancis Ngannou33:33

       And I was always in retreat. I always stay in retreat, and that's how I technically grew up by myself.

   25. NANarrator33:41

       Mm-hmm.

   26. FNFrancis Ngannou33:41

       I end up, like, not even trying to have a friends. I'm like, "Okay, this is my situation, maybe I just..." I feel, uh, okay, just retreat myself, not just to try all the time and get shame of it all the time, you know?

   27. NANarrator33:58

       Yeah.

   28. FNFrancis Ngannou33:58

       I always... I retreat and don't have to deal with these people, with their opinion on me. And, um, but that motivated me at some point. I'm like, "Them, look, this kid, they are looking at me like I'm, I'm worth nothing. But technically, I worth more than them because, uh, I'm working, you know. Uh, even though what I have is less than what they have, I deserve what I have. I work hard for it and they don't do, they don't work, they don't deserve shit. They are just a kid."

   29. NANarrator34:36

       Right.

   30. FNFrancis Ngannou34:36

       They work and their- their- their parent provide for them. I- I'm not just lucky. I'm not just lucky to have the chance, but I'm still trying, which mean I'm not bad at the end of the day, you know? So that's, that push me to, like... From there, I wanted something to prove them wrong. I'm like, "Okay, I cannot do something that cannot prove this kid that I'm not beneath them." And-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   What is your foundation?…

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou45:00

      Like, once I had, like, a really good friend of mine. This guy is in the village and he's doing good. He's doing his businesses, doing good for a village guy. Like, sometime I will come there, he will even give me, like, whiskey, find a good whiskey for me. And he said, "Man, you know, like, you just going in America and come back here means a lot to us. Like, we grew up together. That mean it's possible for us too. That k- uh, drive us, uh, through our dream, like, motivate us." Like, yes, if Francis did it, I mean, I might not do the same thing, but I can get to what I want to, you know? And, uh, I'm like, "Thank you. I, I really appreciate his word." And he was, like, very humble explaining me things and... Yeah. And that's why I also, like, uh, do it in my foundation. Like, I like to, like, tell this kid, like, "Listen, I'm not a, uh, a fairytale. I'm not a story that you watch on TV or, um, uh, that you read in a book. I'm a fact. I grew up here. Most of you, uh, knew me before I even, I even live here, um, which means it's possible, you know? As long as you believe in something, in a dream, uh, as long as you have a dream and believe in yourself, I think success is just a matter of time." That-

   2. JRJoe Rogan46:34

      What is your foundation?

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou46:36

      Francis Ngannou Foundation.

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:38

      And what do you do?

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou46:40

      Honestly, the goal is to do everything because there is just too much, a lot, uh, to be done back there. There's nothing out there. But, uh, as for now, uh, I have a dream, uh, for kids because when I was back there, uh, with my dream as a kid, I always expected to have someone come there and have a gym. I was like, "This would be cool."

   6. JRJoe Rogan47:05

      Mm-hmm.

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou47:06

      You know, so I can train, you know. And the first thing that I did when I went in France and then I see how, um, the opportunity there, I started to collect gloves, everything that I can have, I started to collect them and ship it home. And over the years I built a gym under the foundation so kids can go there and train. Not because I want them to become a professional athlete, but, uh, just because I want them to feel like, uh, they matter, you know? Like somebody cares about them.

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:41

      Mm-hmm.

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou47:41

      Because most of the time that's why, um, kids, uh, give up on their dream. They feel like, "Okay, it's not meant for us. We can't get there."

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:52

       Right.

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou47:52

       They just let them go, you know? But... Which is r- which is wrong because I think everybody can, can make it. It's still difficult, more difficult to somebody than some, but it's still possible for, uh, everyone. And from my experience, I mean, it might not be always true, but when you believe, when you have a dream and you believe into, there is no way that you are not going to make it, you know? It might take time, it might come on its own time, but it will always come.

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:32

       So you have this dream, you leave Cameroon, you, you end up in France, you end up in Paris?

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou48:39

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:39

       Is that where you went?

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou48:40

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:40

       And what was that like?

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou48:42

       (slurping)

   18. JRJoe Rogan48:42

       And how did you... (laughs) and how did you get involved in, in martial arts from there?

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou48:50

       (laughs) So my journey from Cameroon to, uh, Paris was, uh, 14 months.

   20. JRJoe Rogan48:57

       14 months to get there?

   21. FNFrancis Ngannou48:59

       Yeah.... remember, (coughs) I couldn't go to the airport and just take a f- plane to go to France.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:07

       Right.

   23. FNFrancis Ngannou49:07

       You know?

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:08

       So how'd you get there?

   25. FNFrancis Ngannou49:08

       I have to use all the backdoors.

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:14

       (laughs)

   27. FNFrancis Ngannou49:14

       (laughs) It was from Cameroon to Nigeria. And I always... In Cameroon, I always been in this tree- uh, triangle city, which is like, uh, my village here, uh, the capital, the politic capital here named Yaounde and the economic capital named Douala here is the triangle that I always been into. I never get out of that triangle. So I'm always, like, concerned about how it looks like to get out there. But guess wors- guess what? I don't wanna get only out there, only out there and still stay in Cameroon. I wanna go somewhere else. Where? I don't even know. Just-

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:57

       So you didn't even know you were gonna go to Paris? You just knew you wanted to leave Cameroon?

   29. FNFrancis Ngannou50:01

       Yeah. I wanna go somewhere that I will have more opportunity for boxing.

   30. JRJoe Rogan50:05

       So what- what was the first day? How did you escape? What did you do?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:00

      uh, immigrant, but also, like, guns and drugs and everything, so they're always, uh, flying there. So they use, like, talkie-walkie to communicate. It's like a, uh, organization.

   2. NANarrator1:00:16

      Mm-hmm.

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:16

      They are well-organized. But you have to be luckies so the ga- the car don't break up in the middle of the trip, because if the car break up in the middle of the trip, most of the time, it's over.

   4. NANarrator1:00:31

      What happens then?

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:32

      Well, guess what?

   6. NANarrator1:00:34

      Yeah.

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:34

      You guys might just die. (laughs)

   8. NANarrator1:00:37

      If you're stuck in the middle of the desert with no water, yeah.

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:39

      (laughs) Yeah, what else, what else would you do?

   10. NANarrator1:00:40

       Yeah, what else would you do?

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:42

       Yeah.

   12. NANarrator1:00:45

       So you have to-

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:45

       It's-

   14. NANarrator1:00:45

       ... take a big risk.

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:46

       Yeah.

   16. NANarrator1:00:47

       So-

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:47

       It's, like, 100... Uh, at the daytime, it's, like, 150 degree.

   18. NANarrator1:00:52

       Phew.

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:52

       Nighttime, it drops to, like, maybe 20 degree. It's crazy.

   20. NANarrator1:00:57

       Oh, wow.

   21. FNFrancis Ngannou1:00:57

       Get cold. At daytime, get hot.

   22. NANarrator1:01:01

       Wow.

   23. FNFrancis Ngannou1:01:02

       Yeah. So you have to do that one-day trip hoping that, crossing your finger that everything goes well.

   24. NANarrator1:01:09

       That the truck doesn't break down.

   25. FNFrancis Ngannou1:01:10

       Yeah, the truck doesn't break down.... and we were in this car, like, you couldn't even sit comfortable. You... I was just sit in the edge and you have to grab the truck so hard, so you get cramp.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:25

       Mm.

   27. FNFrancis Ngannou1:01:25

       And then... But when you get cramp, you can't let him go because if you let him go, you fall and that's it.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

       Right.

   29. FNFrancis Ngannou1:01:33

       They won't stop.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

       Oh, man.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

   What is that? …

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou1:15:00

      Don't let people come there." Um, like, Morocco will be like, "That's not our problem." We don't have money to do all those stuff, so they give them money for that. So it's a good business for Morocco to protect... It's like, uh, a lot of money in their economy. They have a new corps, a special corps for that, so give a lot of jobs. But, man, they don't joke on you. In this s- s- somewhere you have, like, three fence with a border and the other side you have the Guardia Civil.

   2. NANarrator1:15:38

      What is that?

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou1:15:39

      Guardia Civil is a, um, is a corps in Spain, like a private corps, but it has a lot of power in the, um, security system. And those people, they are not like the Moroccan one, um, the Moroccan. Like, they can talk to each other by the fence, but, uh, one side in- is Morocco, one side is Spain.

   4. NANarrator1:16:08

      Hmm.

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou1:16:08

      You know? But they are very height... They have a very, uh, a huge high-tech, uh, technology equipment for surveillance.

   6. NANarrator1:16:19

      Hmm.

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou1:16:19

      Like, they have this camera, um... Like, this week I was watching a movie about, some movie, uh, showing some part of that. And you should watch, watch this. The movie is named Adu. It's a small kids from somewhere in Africa, um, in Cameroon exactly. Now-

   8. NANarrator1:16:39

      What's the movie called?

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou1:16:41

      Adu.

   10. NANarrator1:16:42

       Spell that.

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou1:16:42

       A-D-U.

   12. NANarrator1:16:44

       There it is, A-D-U.

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou1:16:45

       Yeah. A-D-U. That movie is interesting. You can see some, some part of... Uh, yeah, that movie. You can see, uh, the, the, the Guardia Civil and how they operate. Even them, they beat you up. (laughs) Yeah.

   14. NANarrator1:17:05

       How long were you in Morocco for?

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou1:17:06

       One years.

   16. NANarrator1:17:07

       One year?

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou1:17:08

       Yeah.

   18. NANarrator1:17:09

       Holy shit.

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou1:17:10

       Because every time that you attempt, and it's not easy, you have to prepare to go attempt, and, uh, every time that you attempt, uh, if you fail, if you get lucky you don't get beat up or other stuff, they're gonna bring you back in the south and throw you in the desert, uh, to let you go. So it's their own way to let, to say, "Go back to your country."

   20. NANarrator1:17:38

       Right.

   21. FNFrancis Ngannou1:17:38

       They leave you, like, in the border out of their country, which is in the desert close to Algeria. Algerian, they don't want you there. Moroccan, Moroccan they don't want you there. So you have to walk, like, the whole night to get somewhere that you can rest. And, uh, to go back from where you were, it takes a lot of time, you know. It's a struggle because we're gonna, uh, jump into, like, uh, merchandise train and all those things, all this process is very long. And, um, sometime you have to go in the water to attempt to, like, deviate from Morocco to get to this island, but he became very, very complicated because they have radar, radars all the time running. And as long, as soon, if you even have a chance to touch the water, you're gonna get caught right away because they have all these high-tech, this infrarouge, motion detector, every-

   22. NANarrator1:18:49

       Infrared.

   23. FNFrancis Ngannou1:18:50

       ... yeah.

   24. NANarrator1:18:50

       Motion detector.

   25. FNFrancis Ngannou1:18:50

       Infrared.

   26. NANarrator1:18:52

       Yeah.

   27. FNFrancis Ngannou1:18:52

       All those stuff, they have all those stuff. So even when we get... we went... we go to the fence because there is somebody who always gonna go check to look where there is a weak- weakness-

   28. NANarrator1:19:07

       Mm-hmm.

   29. FNFrancis Ngannou1:19:07

       ... on the, on the fence. It's like... It's about over, about 11 miles of fence will protect-

   30. NANarrator1:19:16

       Whew.
7. 1:30:00 – 1:34:53

   (laughs) …

   1. FNFrancis Ngannou1:30:00

      and I- I introduced... I, we met each other, the barbed wire and I. I'm like, "Yeah, man. Respect." (laughs)

   2. NANarrator1:30:10

      (laughs)

   3. FNFrancis Ngannou1:30:10

      I went back in the forest bleeding all over. I'm like, "Man." I know that if I go to the hospital, the police gonna cut me because-

   4. NANarrator1:30:20

      Yeah.

   5. FNFrancis Ngannou1:30:20

      ... they... since they know there is a attack, they know there is a lot of, um, wounded, uh, p- people. So, they're gonna be looking at the hospital. But, I mean, or I stay in the forest and die by losing my blood or I go in the hospital then I get cut. Maybe they'll send me in the desert, but at least I will still be alive.

   6. NANarrator1:30:47

      Right.

   7. FNFrancis Ngannou1:30:48

      Then I decided, at some point, to go to the hospital. Yeah. I get some stitches. The police came. Uh, it wasn't even done. They just took me like that. (scoffs)

   8. NANarrator1:31:00

      Wow. While you were getting stitched up?

   9. FNFrancis Ngannou1:31:02

      Yeah, when I'm get- while I'm getting ti- stitched up. They don't care.

   10. NANarrator1:31:05

       But you felt like you had to get stitched up, though?

   11. FNFrancis Ngannou1:31:07

       Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But they don't- they don't care about anything, you know? I mean, they don't... I don't know if they even realize that you are a person of... you're- you're hurt, you know? They just took us there. Yeah. That was the first time I-

   12. NANarrator1:31:27

       And what happens when they catch you?

   13. FNFrancis Ngannou1:31:29

       Well, they bring you to the police station. You will stay there a few days and then they will... because this- this is in the now-... the south is very far. So you're gonna go, to bring you to the south, it's a very long trip. When they catch you guys, they'll put you in the police s- keep you in the police station until you, uh, there are enough of you maybe to fill one bus to make a trip in the no- south. So-

   14. NANarrator1:31:57

       Mm-hmm.

   15. FNFrancis Ngannou1:31:59

       ... but since there was a massive attack, there was a lot of people that got caught. So the same day s- the same day, they took us in Oujda, which is in the south, and you sleep there, like, one or two days, and they wait until the nighttime. They go to the border in the desert and throw you guys there. Then you figure your i- your, your way up between, uh, Algerian military, who are no joking because sometime when they hear noises, they just shoot. (imitates gun firing) Uh, those people, (gasps) they are crazy. So we have to deal between them. Run, hide. It's very hide, uh, uh, hard to hide in the desert, you know?

   16. NANarrator1:32:44

       Yeah.

   17. FNFrancis Ngannou1:32:44

       It's flat.

   18. NANarrator1:32:45

       Right.

   19. FNFrancis Ngannou1:32:45

       Just sand. No trees or grass. (sighs) Kind of like very hot.

   20. NANarrator1:32:52

       How do you hide? Do you have to cover yourself in sand?

   21. FNFrancis Ngannou1:32:55

       Yeah, and crawl, all those things.

   22. NANarrator1:32:58

       Oh.

   23. FNFrancis Ngannou1:32:58

       Like sometimes you go on the floor like a snake, like, crawl until you figure out there's no n- noise. Like, there's not somebody around, then you start to walk. At least you know, like, "Okay, I'm going to the north. I'm following that light which is in the north, which is in Morocco, which is where I wanna go, I wanna be." You know, and that's how we go. Because there was a, uh, big airport. There was a Moroccan airport, uh, not far from there. So it's always, we always use the airport light to, um, to direct ourself to where we are going.

   24. NANarrator1:33:38

       Wow.

   25. FNFrancis Ngannou1:33:38

       So, yeah.

   26. NANarrator1:33:39

       So how long did it take for you to get back to the border again, to touch that fence again?

   27. FNFrancis Ngannou1:33:46

       This, this, uh, journey is not ... Like, one trip there is not that easy. It takes a lot out of you.

   28. NANarrator1:33:53

       I'm sure.

   29. FNFrancis Ngannou1:33:53

       Most of the time you don't eat. So you are not really exciting after you fail one time. You are not excited to go back there.

   30. NANarrator1:34:01

       Right.

Episode duration: 3:30:51