EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,019 words- 0:00 – 2:43
Reuniting on JRE: language growth and a fast-changing life
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day.
- NANarrator
(Rock music playing)
- JRJoe Rogan
Welcome, Francis.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Thank you, Joe. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm glad we finally did this.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh, finally. It's been a while.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, your English- your English has improved drastically.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Thank you. I think that's why, um, I wanted to st- to wait a little bit before come.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I'm like, "Well, I'm not sure if I will handle that." You know, sometime I listen to the podcast, and I- like basically when you are talking about different podcasts, different topic, I'm kind of like lost sometime. Like, "Okay, what does this mean? What does that mean?" You know. But now I feel little bo- little bit comfortable.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. You're much-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's easy to talk to you now. I remember when you first went into the UFC, I interviewed you-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and you didn't know what the fuck I was saying. (laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh, nothing, like... Hey, uh, growing up in c- uh... I went to- to school, like elementary school and co- um, um, middle school, and we were learning English. I know some few words like water and stuff, but just my accent was just so different than when I came here, my first, um, UFC event was in Orlando. And, um, I couldn't even hear people like water. Like, the accent was just so different. I'm like, "What the hell is going on?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
"I can't catch any wo-" You know, it was just crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
How long have you been in America now?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Uh, three years and half. I mean, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
That- that's pretty impressive that you picked up-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... not permanently because I travel a lot, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... uh, total is like two years and a half.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you were in France for how long before that?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Four years.
- JRJoe Rogan
Four years. When you were in Cameroon, what- what language did they speak in Cameroon?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
We speak, mainly we speak French in general, and, uh, just in our village that we speak our dialect.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay. So you know the dialect from the village, and then French-
- 2:43 – 5:53
First title shot lessons: Stipe fight, pacing, and experience gaps
- JRJoe Rogan
And be about to fight for the UFC Heavyweight Championship of the World too.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
For the second time.
- JRJoe Rogan
For the second time.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
The redemption.
- JRJoe Rogan
The redemption. Well, what was the first time like for you? What was- was the feeling of the first fight like for you?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh. Um, I had two different feelings, uh, from that fight. First, uh, obviously I was very, um, upset and disappointed that I didn't, uh, win the fight, and you know, I- as everyone who is fighting for the title you want to get out there as a, uh, victorious. But, uh, to be honest, I always look in that fight and since, uh, the fight day, just after the fight I look at it, and I'm like, "This is good." Like, um, I learned just too much in that fight because I am... Even though I was in the level of fighting for the, uh, world title, you know, but I still have some- some missing part in my game-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... and in my experience. I- I remember I was s- asking my question in myself like, "Okay, how did it looks like to go into three rounds?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Basically I'm going to a potential five rounds that I never been in three rounds. How did it look like? How is it to prepare for this kind of fight? And, uh, I had this fight like six week- six weeks, um, earlier. So I was having a lot of question. Then after that fight that night, I'm like, "Okay, I get it."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's a- a very big learning experience, right?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah, yeah. That was the-
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause you were smashing everybody. Everybody you were knocking-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... everybody out. So you had these very quick fights.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yes. Very quick-
- JRJoe Rogan
So-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... very quick rise and, uh, didn't ha- uh, spend enough time in the octagon to like have those experience even though I was almost like, uh... It w- it was almost four years, three years and half since I'd been- four years that I'd been doing the sport. But, uh, didn't spend enough time in the octagon to have that experience. I think, uh, in one night I have a, uh, it... I cover more than what I've been spending in the octagon from the rest of my career. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
No. No, I'm sure. It's, um, it's gotta be, uh, a difficult thing to figure out how to pace yourself for a five round fight when you've only been knocking people out quickly before that.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. Uh, also, you know, some people, uh, get here while they're being profession- when, while they been having a at least adi- uh, lives for a long time, maybe wrestling-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... maybe doing some different sport at school or at college. But, uh, I never get into that stuff, you know. Growing up I was just like finding my way to survive. Then I end up, uh, finding myself in somewhere that, uh, I never been there, you know. The- so the experience was just crazy. I-
- 5:53 – 6:59
Starting late: first martial arts training and a rapid rise to the UFC
- JRJoe Rogan
How old were you when you had your first training? Your first, uh, martial arts training?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh, that was in, uh, summer, October 2013. That was my first experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. So the first time-
- JRJoe Rogan
So just eight years ago.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... yeah. And two years after that, I was fighting my first fight in the UFC. And I remember, basically, like, at first when I went into martial art, it was just for fun, to, uh, curiosity. I'm like, "Oh, it's fun. Oh, it's good. I like those, uh, kick shit." Or-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... you know. But (laughs) -
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... I didn't like seeing myself being a, um, um, UFC fighter. And people was like, "Oh, if you put yourself into this, you can become a UFC fighter and a, a UFC champion. You can have a UFC belt wrapped around your waist." I'm like, "Whatever." You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Didn't care about it until I have the UFC contract, like, two years after that. I'm like, "Okay, this might be the opportunity that I, I, I have been looking for. So it's time to, uh, capitalize and, uh, showcase my, my talent and show the world and shock the world."
- 6:59 – 8:31
Early pro fights in Europe/MENA and how the UFC discovered him
- JRJoe Rogan
How many fights did you have before you fought in the UFC?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Six fights.
- JRJoe Rogan
Six fights.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And did you have them all in France?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
A few fights in France. Uh, t- just... Four in France. I had four fight- uh, fight in France. And, you know, in France, the ground and pound is not allowed. When he goes... That was back, uh, back then because MMA was still illegal. So, when he goes on the ground, is just turned into grap- grappling ga- game.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. So, um, I had three- uh, four fight in France, one in Switzerland, and, uh, one in, uh, Bahra- Bahrain.
- JRJoe Rogan
Bahrain. So when did they find out about you? How'd the UFC find out about you?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Um, that was, um... That was my coach, Fernand, by the time was working with, uh, a manager named, uh, Thiago, uh, a Brazilian guy. So they kind of, like, push. Um, Thiago has a connection with the... I mean, he was a manager, so Fernand was t- all the time sending him a text message and, um, uh, videos that he will, uh, forward to the UFC until... And they were still like, "Yes, but, uh, he hasn't fight nobody tough yet." "Yeah, he hasn't get test, uh, a real test yet." Until I f- uh, I fought this guy in Bahrain named, uh, William Badruti, and I knock him out in the second round. Then I get my UFC contract right after that.
- 8:31 – 10:14
First UFC experience: learning rules under pressure and simplifying to ‘just fighting’
- JRJoe Rogan
What was it like to first fight in the UFC? Was it different?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Whoa! Uh, that was a crazy experience. You know, I didn't, I didn't even know the rules back then. I remember-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... I was in, uh, Orlando, and now I'm like, "Man, this is the time." Like, "I'm going to fight, uh, to be seen in the whole world. Um, so this is my op- m- the time to take my opportunity to showcase, uh, my talent, to prove that, uh, I can do something." Then I'm like, "Okay, so what is this ab- what it is about MMA? What, how MMA works? What is the rules? How it goes?" And I couldn't get it. Like, didn't know the rules. But, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you, you got used to no ground fighting, punching on the ground. 'Cause there's no ground found in France.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah, even though I was just doing it for two years. And remember, at first, it was just for fun.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
So it didn't really was there to become a professional fighter, you know. Uh, all I cared about, uh, at the time was boxing. Then, uh, I ca- I found myse- I found myself y- there in two years. Then now I'm like, "Okay, what is the rules again?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
"Uh, how it works? Okay. Uh, if he's trying to take me down, I couldn't do this." Like, trying to figure all those ou- out. It was very stressful. And now I'm like, "Guess what? At the end of the day, it's just fighting." I mean, uh, I don't know if this guy is doing some kung fu shit-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... but it's just fighting. We're gonna figure out, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Some kung fu shit.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
It's just man between men, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. We're gonna figure out. I mean, you know, I'm a tough guy, you know, so, uh, I can handle it.
- 10:14 – 12:21
Why MMA (not boxing) at first: paperwork, opportunity, and boxing’s business barriers
- JRJoe Rogan
Why did you transition to MMA and not, not go into boxing?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
It's not like a transition, and I didn't have a choice. You know, I was pra- I was doing MMA, uh, because, uh, when I get in fr- uh, when I went in France, I was a... Uh, I didn't have a, uh, paper, so I was illegal, so I couldn't work. And, uh, I wanted so bad to do, uh, sport. And I was doing boxing and MMA, but the MMA was the one that was more open on giving me opportunity. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... uh, having a UFC contract as a MMA fighter was a big deal. And, uh, didn't have much... You know, like, boxing world is kind of like a, uh, very complicated business. You have to know somebody. They have to, like, line you up. It's very complicated. But MMA was just easy. You knock people out, then I'm like, "Who is that guy? We want that guy." It was pretty, pretty, uh, easy, MMA-wise. And that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, in boxing you have to be connected to the right promoter-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
And that takes time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
And, uh, basically, uh, regarding my situation back then, uh, I had a lot of odds, you know, uh, coming from nowhere, nobody knows me, with my accent. And, you know, uh, in French when you have accent, it's not a good thing. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
No. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what's it like over there?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
It's frustrating because the, the way that they look at you when you speak with your accent, you know, you don't feel comfortable. You can't, like, let, let yourself, uh, express yourself. You just feel bad about yourself, you know, uh, just seeing people react- some people reaction sometime. And, um, you didn't have a p- uh, resident card.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You was like a, uh, migrant. So it was kind of... Together was a tough situation to deal with, uh, basically in the boxing business because they're gonna go see this promoter talk about you, "But who is that guy? Where did he s- come from?" Uh, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
It's hard to have credit from someone.
- 12:21 – 14:38
Leaving Cameroon: desperation, responsibility, and choosing risk over waiting
- JRJoe Rogan
... now, you, you came from Cameroon to France to just to pursue fighting? Or-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh, yeah. Hell yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Like, I mean, I didn't come from Cameroon to France. I went from, um ... I just left Cameroon and, uh, didn't even know where I was going. I just know that, uh, I was, uh, looking for a few of, uh, field of opportunity. And, uh, that's how I left because regarding my situation back then, I couldn't afford to apply for a visa. You know, that was (sighs) even, uh, unbelievable. I couldn't even imagine that because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Visas are very expensive?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Not, like, expensive. They have to check, check your life, uh, your bank account, your, your job. Uh, they have to know if you, you, you're capable of taking care of yourself out there, and if you, you can come back, because they don't want you guys there with your misery (laughs) .
- JRJoe Rogan
Right (laughs) .
- FNFrancis Ngannou
So they did a lot of background check, uh, in Africa to have, to give, to give, approve your visa to come, uh, in Europe or in America. And, um, my situation wasn't the best. I mean, I didn't even have a bank account. What for? You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I have my few p- my few pound, uh, uh, pound, um ... I just keep it in my house. That's it. It wasn't even enough to open a bank account (laughs) .
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
So ... But I still had to do something, you know? I felt that I had to do something.
- JRJoe Rogan
How old were you then when you left?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I was 20, 24, 25. Yeah, 25 to 26.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you just had gotten to this point in your life where you knew you had to do something.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yes, he- ... Because he has been a long time. I've been thinking about that for a very long time, looking for what I can do, and over years, I'm like, "Okay, at this point, I can't just hoping something will happen. A miracle, uh, won't happen right now. You have to take action. You have to do something. Even though it's risky, uh, you have to do it." And, um, that's when I decided to leave the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you didn't have any martial arts training at all in Cameroon?
- 14:38 – 20:42
Early hardships and discipline: boxing dreams, taxi work, and sand-mine childhood
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I had a b- I started boxing, like, a few years ago. Like, I left my village when I was 22. I was driving a motorcycle, doing taxi with motorcycle.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You know, like you see in Africa-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... people doing taxi, you carry, like, three, three people behind you-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... who sit on the, uh, fuel tank and just, like, driving them to some point, and that's what I was doing. So that's not, like, a big job, so couldn't have much money, but since I, I was dreaming for boxing so bad, then I sold that to go to the city and, uh, find the boxing, because I'd been dreaming for boxing for over, uh, about 10 years. But, uh, there wasn't a gym, like, 50, 50 miles around, so I decided to sell my bike, my motorcycle, and go to the city. And by the time my family thought I was ... or people around thought I was going crazy. Like, "What the hell?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Like, "You have a job. You have a chance to have a job, to have a bike. Uh, you can feed yourself and maybe, uh, create your family, your own family, and you say you're going to do this boxing. What the hell is boxing? Did you ever see somebody coming from here to succeed in b- in boxing?" Um, then they would take some example as, such as, uh, people like Ouattara Belleh, Joseph Bessala, you know, Jean-Marie Mbeou, which is people that was a, like, a legend in this, uh, combat sport in Cameroon. But, uh, financially, they didn't succeed, you know. Their, their life wasn't an, a great example to lay on, and that's why people are like, "Okay, those people had a chance to start sport when, when they were young, uh, to have, uh, to be surrounded. You're, like, 22, and you're " I'm like, "I'm going to do boxing." You are old, you're this, that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
You're old at 22.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yes. I'm tu-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I'm like, "You're old. It's not possible."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
And basically, "Even if you're able to make it as them, what?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
"You can't even feed your family with ..." You know, I'm like, "Yeah. Facts. Point taken. But, you know, I love this shit."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I just gonna try it and, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you just had a desire.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah, I just have a desire, you know. Like, um, I couldn't picture myself doing something else without it. I'm like, "Okay, it might, uh, it might don't work, but I don't wanna live with the regret of, uh, not trying," you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I have to try. If I fail, it's okay. I have a right to try and to fail, to start over, as everybody has that right, so I can use my right, you know. I have to try this. At least, if it, uh, if it doesn't work, uh, I won't blame my, blame myself someday that, uh, I should, I should've done this, I should've do this, I should've try. I was just like, "Okay, I give my best." Didn't ... It didn't work, and, um, that's why I, uh, started boxing. And, um, it was so crazy. Everybody around thought I lose my mind. They're- I'm like, "What the hell is that, boxing?" Like, "You're gonna get hit, you're gonna get, uh, sick, you're gonna, you're gonna end up with the Parkinson, your head shaking like this, no money." Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... seriously? Take yourself, take your life, uh, seriously. That's not serious." And I'm like, "Yeah."... maybe, but whatever. At the end of the day, what truly matters, you know, at least I will do what I want for some time, what I love. And if it doesn't work, you know, I still have some sort of satisfic- satisfaction of doing it.
- JRJoe Rogan
D- are you aware that the amount of success that you've achieved has gotta be very inspirational for other people that are in the same sort of situation that you were in? When they hear your story and they know that people around them are questioning their desires too.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You took a chance, a lot of chances.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And look, here you are about to fight again for the heavyweight championship. I mean, it's a m- a pretty amazing story.
- 20:42 – 39:40
Mindset forged in pain: stubbornness, identity, and refusing to become his father
- JRJoe Rogan
But m- most people don't have the confidence to take chances like that. Most people, they, they hear these people saying, "Oh, you're gonna get Parkinson's. You're gonna get sick. You're not gonna make money. You're not gonna be able to feed your family." And they, they listen to those people. Most people listen to the naysayers, they listen to these doubters.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you didn't. How come?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I think that's a good part of being a stubborn kid. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You know, growing up, I always had a... I always had my own... always had my own vision, my own point of view of things. And in Africa, when you have your point of view, which is the opposite to what your parents, uh, or your elder- elders will, like, have, this look very bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You b- you are a very bad kids.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Like, kids just have to obey whatever they are telling them. And I'm like, "Okay, I would like to do this." And all the time, them like... they would tell me, like, "This is not for us. This is not possible. It for those people out there." I'm like, "Yeah, but what... what do... what does- does tho- those people have more than us?" Them like, "Listen, you should just set up... our life is like this. You're gonna be a farmer or a, uh, constructioner or this, like your parent, you know? You can't... you're just gonna follow the family, uh, footstep." And I'm like, "Yeah, but, you know, I can try something. You know, he always take one shot to get there." And them like, "We tell you it won't work. Just forget about it." And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
You didn't listen?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... I was like, "Yeah, I know, but I can still try it," you know? And them like, "This kid never listen." And I always been like that and, um, growing up, me and my brothers, my brother was the one that is gonna obey, do exactly what the parent say. He was good kid, is a great kid. Obey about everything. And I was just the opposite of him.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Bad kid, you know? Uh, e- he end up to... to be at the point that when I get somewhere, everybody would change, look up of his stuff like, "This kid is so ambitious. This n- this... and this, uh, kind of kid never end up well. You know, they will end up, like, stealing, uh, broken houses-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... because they don't s- uh, the reality is not enough for them. They just want something bigger. And when you have that kind of dream, um, you over-dream, you... for easy money, for easy life, you're gonna end up maybe drug dealer or house breaking or those stuff." I'm like, "Listen, I just have my own point of view which is different than yours. That doesn't mean I'm a bad guy." I knew I had a chance that, um... I don't know how, but at-a-at any moment in my life, I knew exactly what I wanted, you know? And that was clear in my mou- mind. I know exactly how to, um, get myself ready to gather those stuff whenever it shows up.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this is from the time you were a boy, you've always known exactly what you wanted?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You've always been stubborn like that?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. Like, um, that started, I was six years old when my parent divorced. I went to, um, to my aunt's.... and she has, like, a ton of kids, and I was one amon- among them. It wasn't a great experience. But what I do learn that, there, and this is the first thing that I learned in my life, like, people was coming over, um, like, "Okay, who, uh, who kid is this?" They're like, "Yes, it's my..." She was like, "This is my sister's kid." "Oh, your sister who married into this guy?" She was like, "Yes." I'm like, "Oh, this guy is so violent. Oh, he's this, he's that." And that's how they were talking about my dad. So every time that they was talking about my dad, I was just ashamed of it. I was just six years old. Like, if I come into the, um, room and they were, they are talking about my dad, I would just sneaking go back and go walk away.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Like, I don't wanna be there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was your dad a fighter?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Pfft. Not like a f- professional fighter, but he was violent, fighting, beating his wife up, my mom up, beating up, us up. And that's even how they get divorced. And from that moment, I didn't know... I mean, I was six. I didn't know nothing about life. I didn't know what I want to become in life. But for, from that moment, I knew something. I don't wanna become like my dad. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... shit. I don't want, I don't want this. So, (smacks lips) and it end up pretty well for me because I always have that in front of, i- in my mind and that's hers, help me my entire life. And that's why even today, thinking about my dad, he might be one of the, uh, irresponsible guy out there, irresponsible dad. But believe me, this guy, uh, impact my life than nobody else. (child cries) And I think, uh, even in the better way, if he was a good dad, like, uh, have us together, educate us... You know, sometime you tell kid, uh, kid not to do something, he go like, "Why they always want me not to do this?" He wanna try that out-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... to see how it feels to do it. You know? But I get it on my own and that was for real. My reputation was something to save. And, uh, growing... In Cameroon, I, we drink a lot of beer.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
A lot.
- 39:40 – 44:41
Returning to the sand mines: grounding, gratitude, and seeing who still dreams
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? I, I saw that you went, you went back recently and you were taking photos of you in the, the sand mine where you worked as a boy. Did I see that on Instagram?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was that like?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I always do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. I mean, when I'm home, I always like to do that. It's kind of like, it really helps me to remember everything, like where I came from, how he was, you know. Every time that I get... when I... that I go back home, I will go back to those, all those places that I used to, uh, work there. I, I hated this thing growing up. Oh, you can't imagine. I hated the sand mine, everything. I hated my life, but today it seems like a fuel for my life today. I have to fill, fill up from that life-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... go back there, see this, because most people there are still people that we grew up together and it allows me to see how far I came from-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You know, like I think it's the m- the moment that I enjoy the most is like those moment, you know, going back, go to my, uh, uh, the house that I grew up into, even though we fix it, today it's not the same, but the environment, like sleeping, have all this nostalgic, uh, wake, uh, at 5:00, all these, uh, animal sounds from outside, the bir- the bird, birds, all those sound which, which is like very familiar, bring you back from 20 to 20, uh, 25 years ago. The smells, everything reminds you something, and this always my best moment, like I can go there and, uh, live in the five star hotel, do some crazy stuff, but it doesn't... I don't, I don't enjoy that as much. Like I don't know how to explain it, but (laughs) I always do it, like I always go back to the sand mine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
This is like a tradition. Not just for them, because it helps me, I like it. I feel like, okay, you know, it's kind of like taking my revenge of life, like, okay, I used to be here thinking this, thinking that, dreaming of this, dreaming of that. Today I have this. Look, that's my car. Look, that's my truck. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You know? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Look, that's my house. Look, this my life. I'm gonna fly back to America even though I'm here, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
So it's like living a dream-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... because back then, that was just a dream, a crazy dream, unbelievable, so I'm living into it right now, like, yes, doing this 20 years ago, I was dreaming, like, "Man, how it is to be in the airplane going somewhere?" Imagine yourself being in the airplane going to America or to France or something. Wow. And I go back, I do the same shit, I'm like, guess what? I'm going back to America in one week. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Right, you're living the dream.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and so it just g- just re- reminds you, just puts-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... puts you back in that place.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. And, uh, what is crazy is, like, most of the time is gonna be with the same guy that I grew up with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
They are in the same place doing the same thing. And, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
What is it like for them? Do they ask you questions? Like...
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Man, you know, and that's why I feel, uh, very lucky just to have a different mindset, just to even have a dream, because they don't even have a dream.
- 44:41 – 48:50
Giving back: the Francis Ngannou Foundation and building a gym for kids
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you find some of the people there that do have a dream look at you and they get inspired? They say, "Look-"
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh yeah, yeah. Those who has... Uh, and they... And I think that's, um, even why, um, some of the reason will keep me going back and, like, even in the foundation. Like, once I had, like, a really good friend of mine. This guy is in the village and he's doing good. He's doing his businesses, doing good for a village guy. Like, sometime I will come there, he will even give me, like, whiskey, find a good whiskey for me. And he said, "Man, you know, like, you just going in America and come back here means a lot to us. Like, we grew up together. That mean it's possible for us too. That k- uh, drive us, uh, through our dream, like, motivate us." Like, yes, if Francis did it, I mean, I might not do the same thing, but I can get to what I want to, you know? And, uh, I'm like, "Thank you. I, I really appreciate his word." And he was, like, very humble explaining me things and... Yeah. And that's why I also, like, uh, do it in my foundation. Like, I like to, like, tell this kid, like, "Listen, I'm not a, uh, a fairytale. I'm not a story that you watch on TV or, um, uh, that you read in a book. I'm a fact. I grew up here. Most of you, uh, knew me before I even, I even live here, um, which means it's possible, you know? As long as you believe in something, in a dream, uh, as long as you have a dream and believe in yourself, I think success is just a matter of time." That-
- JRJoe Rogan
What is your foundation?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Francis Ngannou Foundation.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what do you do?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Honestly, the goal is to do everything because there is just too much, a lot, uh, to be done back there. There's nothing out there. But, uh, as for now, uh, I have a dream, uh, for kids because when I was back there, uh, with my dream as a kid, I always expected to have someone come there and have a gym. I was like, "This would be cool."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You know, so I can train, you know. And the first thing that I did when I went in France and then I see how, um, the opportunity there, I started to collect gloves, everything that I can have, I started to collect them and ship it home. And over the years I built a gym under the foundation so kids can go there and train. Not because I want them to become a professional athlete, but, uh, just because I want them to feel like, uh, they matter, you know? Like somebody cares about them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Because most of the time that's why, um, kids, uh, give up on their dream. They feel like, "Okay, it's not meant for us. We can't get there."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
They just let them go, you know? But... Which is r- which is wrong because I think everybody can, can make it. It's still difficult, more difficult to somebody than some, but it's still possible for, uh, everyone. And from my experience, I mean, it might not be always true, but when you believe, when you have a dream and you believe into, there is no way that you are not going to make it, you know? It might take time, it might come on its own time, but it will always come.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you have this dream, you leave Cameroon, you, you end up in France, you end up in Paris?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that where you went?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what was that like?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
(slurping)
- JRJoe Rogan
And how did you... (laughs) and how did you get involved in, in martial arts from there?
- 48:50 – 1:11:34
14-month migration begins: Nigeria to Niger to Algeria—bribes, desert danger, and survival tactics
- FNFrancis Ngannou
(laughs) So my journey from Cameroon to, uh, Paris was, uh, 14 months.
- JRJoe Rogan
14 months to get there?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.... remember, (coughs) I couldn't go to the airport and just take a f- plane to go to France.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
So how'd you get there?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I have to use all the backdoors.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- FNFrancis Ngannou
(laughs) It was from Cameroon to Nigeria. And I always... In Cameroon, I always been in this tree- uh, triangle city, which is like, uh, my village here, uh, the capital, the politic capital here named Yaounde and the economic capital named Douala here is the triangle that I always been into. I never get out of that triangle. So I'm always, like, concerned about how it looks like to get out there. But guess wors- guess what? I don't wanna get only out there, only out there and still stay in Cameroon. I wanna go somewhere else. Where? I don't even know. Just-
- JRJoe Rogan
So you didn't even know you were gonna go to Paris? You just knew you wanted to leave Cameroon?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah. I wanna go somewhere that I will have more opportunity for boxing.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what- what was the first day? How did you escape? What did you do?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Well, uh, I leave Cameroon. And then from there...
- JRJoe Rogan
How'd you leave?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Car and train and, uh, get to Nigeria.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you save up some money before you went?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah? Just-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
I saved some money-
- JRJoe Rogan
... decided this is it?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... and I, and I l- uh, I give some of my saving to my, uh, little sister to keep it because, uh, where we were going, man, we didn't... You... We didn't... I didn't know exactly how it looks like, but from what I've heard, it was hell. You're gonna cross a mafia and all those people across the road. You're gonna get, uh, uh, robbed, every kind of shit. So you better don't have all your money on you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
If you don't get killed off, if you don't kill yourself-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... by taking some risk. So that's... I leave the money to my sister. I'm like, "Just keep it in your eye. So every time that I call you, be ready to sh- to, uh, se-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wire it. Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
To wi-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
No, to send it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 1:11:34 – 1:34:29
Morocco as ‘immigration hell’: fences, barbed wire, beatings, and repeated failures
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Because in Morocco, that was a ruin, that was uh... Hell.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was bad.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Ah. Unbelievable life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Hey, like even now sometime when I think about it, I was there. It's not like a story that somebody tell me. I was there myself. I've been through all this thing on, by myself. Sometime I still can't believe it. Can you imagine that? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... you can't even expect somebody to understand like what you're talking about.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was Morocco like?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Morocco is a nightmare for immigration. It's like a hell of country from immigration because it's the country closer to Europe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
You know, at some point the ocean is just like maybe five miles, uh, the land in Morocco is just five miles from, uh, Europe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Europe. Mm-hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Europe, from Tarifa, which is in Europe, is- in Spain. And there's a two, uh, small territory of, uh, Spain in Morocco, in the Morocco side, which is Ceuta and, uh, uh, Melilla. Those two are just protected, protected by the gate, by the fence with the, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Barbed wire?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... barbed wire on it. Oh, those barbed wire, they are sharp.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Oh, I can't tell you. They are fucking sharp. You almost take my stomach out, like cut me here everywhere the first time I fell on it.... I'm, like, stuck there. But if I stay there on the border to expect, uh, a rescue, somebody, a rescue, then the military will come, and guess what? Uh, they don't joke.
- NANarrator
Right.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
They will beat you up basically when you're a big guy like this, because they know, w- uh, when you're big, then I'm like, for them, you are the, uh, oldest one. And I'm like you, "You're going to Senegal and bring all those bambino to come to go to Europe, because you think we don't wanna go to Europe." They beat the shit out of you. Like-
- NANarrator
Hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
(laughs) Some- sometime with a bar of iron, you know? Oh, they kills pe- they kill people just by beating them. You know, there are just some people that they are not educated. There are no differences. They don't even understand people's struggle. They don't understand nothing. They just took them in the, um, s- uh, town and train them and give them a bat to beat people.
- NANarrator
So they're just... The, the people they use-
- FNFrancis Ngannou
Yeah.
- NANarrator
... for police, they just take anybody that wants that job?
- FNFrancis Ngannou
No, not for the police. There's a different corps. There's a special corps there just for immigration-
- NANarrator
Oh.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... named ALI, because, uh, Europe- European Union finance, uh, that corps to protect their border-
- NANarrator
Hmm.
- FNFrancis Ngannou
... because they know that is, like, a strategic point from Africa to go to Europe. So, uh, they were like, "Okay. Don't let people come there." Um, like, Morocco will be like, "That's not our problem." We don't have money to do all those stuff, so they give them money for that. So it's a good business for Morocco to protect... It's like, uh, a lot of money in their economy. They have a new corps, a special corps for that, so give a lot of jobs. But, man, they don't joke on you. In this s- s- somewhere you have, like, three fence with a border and the other side you have the Guardia Civil.
- NANarrator
What is that?
- 1:34:29 – 2:12:50
Crossing attempts by sea: inflatable rafts, weather ‘meteo,’ and learning to be a captain
- FNFrancis Ngannou
"I have to do this." And sometime, instead of, like, thinking of going back to the fence, you are like, "Okay, let me go try in the water or something." You go, you try. But for the water, you have to, like, have your money because you have to collect the money. You guys have to collect money to buy a m- flexible boat, you know, to r-
Episode duration: 3:30:51
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Transcript of episode lN2-yCSHrZ4
