Cisco president Jeetu Patel: Why AI is critical for survival

1. 0:00 – 4:15

   Introduction and welcome

   1. JPJeetu Patel0:00

      Survival of humanity depends on a successful AI. Birth rates are going down. If you have sixty percent of your population where you don't have enough people to take care of them, that could cause a lot of human suffering. When I got this new job, there's zero chance I would've been able to do it if AI wasn't there, because I didn't know anything about so many domains that we were in.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky0:17

      A lot of companies are trying to adjust to this new world.

   3. JPJeetu Patel0:20

      You have to know the difference between a mega trend and a hype cycle. When there's a mega trend, don't fight it. AI is a mega trend. One of the most foundational movements that we have seen in human history.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky0:30

      To turn Cisco from an older, slower, more traditional enterprise to a very AI-forward company, this is very difficult to do.

   5. JPJeetu Patel0:37

      AI is moving so fast. One of the things I tell my team is fast-forward six months from now, get prepared for that world.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky0:42

      You manage thirty thousand people.

   7. JPJeetu Patel0:44

      Every management book that you read will tell you praise in public, criticize in private. I fundamentally disagree with that notion. What you have to do is establish enough trust among the team so that you are comfortable critiquing and debating in public.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky0:59

      What's something that you wish you'd known before taking on this role?

   9. JPJeetu Patel1:02

      Stamina trumps intellect. It's very important to have smart people, but you can become smart if you have curiosity and hunger and staying power and persistence. You can't teach hunger.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:13

       [gentle music] Today my guest is Jeetu Patel, chief product officer and president at Cisco. Cisco is not a brand that mostly people think about when they think about AI, but not only are they a massive part of the AI infrastructure buildout that is happening right now all over the world, what Jeetu has achieved internally at Cisco in terms of transforming their culture and ways of working to be AI-first is something that most big company leaders only dream about. Jeetu is also an incredible human with so much warmth and wisdom to share. I am very excited to be sharing his story. Don't forget to check out lennysproductpass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's Newsletter subscribers. Let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors. Applications break in all kinds of ways. Crashes, slowdowns, regressions, and the stuff that you only see once real users show up. Sentry catches it all. See what happened, where, and why, down to the commit that introduced the error, the developer who shipped it, and the exact line of code all in one connected view. I've definitely tried the five tabs and Slack thread approach to debugging. This is better. Sentry shows you how the request moved, what ran, what slowed down, and what users saw. SEER, Sentry's AI debugging agent, takes it from there. It uses all of that Sentry context to tell you the root cause, suggest a fix, and even opens a PR for you. It also reviews your PRs and flags any breaking changes with fixes ready to go. Try Sentry and SEER for free at sentry.io/lenny and use code Lenny for one hundred dollars in Sentry credits. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y.io/lenny. Your marketing website sets the tone for your brand and is the one touch point that every single one of your customers sees. In today's age, if you're still having a hard time making small changes and simple updates to it, you're doing something wrong. That is why so many companies, from early-stage startups to Fortune five hundreds, including companies like DoorDash, Zapier, Perplexity, and Eleven Labs, turn to Framer, the website builder that turns your dot com from a formality into a tool for growth. Framer works like your team's favorite design tool and comes with real-time collaboration, a robust CMS with everything you need for great SEO, and advanced analytics that includes integrated A/B testing. Changes to your Framer site go live to the web in seconds with a single click and without any help from engineering. Whether you wanna launch a new site, test a few landing pages, or migrate your full dot com, Framer has programs for startups, scale-ups, and large enterprises to make going from idea to live site as easy and fast as possible. Learn how to turn your website into a growth engine from a Framer expert, or just get started building for free today at framer.com/lenny. And if you're a Lenny's Product Pass subscriber, you get an entire year of Framer Pro for free. Check it out at framer.com/lenny. Rules and restrictions may apply.

2. 4:15 – 8:45

   Insights from Cisco’s Al summit

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky4:16

      [gentle music] Jeetu, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

   2. JPJeetu Patel4:22

      Lenny, I'm excited. Good to see you.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky4:24

      The timing on this conversation is so amazing. You're just coming off running the most insane assembling of AI thought leaders and tech leaders I've ever seen. Let me just read a few of the names that you guys had at the summit that just happened a couple of days ago. Uh, you had Jensen, you had Sam Altman, you had Marc Andreessen, you had Fei-Fei Li, you had the CEO of Intel, AWS, uh, Mike Krieger, Kevin Weil. Like, that's just, like, a third of the guests you guys had. I don't, I don't know. I did this. Um, but it feels like you had this fire hose of information coming at you. You interviewed a lot of these people on stage. And so while it's fresh in your mind, I wanna ask you, after doing this summit, after hearing from these folks, what's something that you've changed your mind about, or what's just, like, an insight that has been lodged in your head ever since doing the summit?

   4. JPJeetu Patel5:13

      It was an amazing thing to pull off because I, I... we never thought we'd be able to do it, and we were really worried going into it, thinking, "Well, we're trying to do fireside chats for twelve hours, and there's a capacity of human absorption that we're trying to challenge." And so we tried to put a lot of breaks in there, and we started at nine AM, and we ended at nine PM, and we had a couple-hour break in the middle. But everyone stayed, and, um, and everyone was engaged, and we could have gone until eleven, and it would've been fine, and it's because the quality of the conversations and the caliber of the guests that were there made a world of a difference. Um, what was the takeaway from it? I'd say a few things. One is, you know, the capabilities overhang is real. I think there's more functionality we... On one end, there's kind of this paradox of progress. On one end, we are like, you know, we're solving all these amazing problems with science. On the other end, you talk to the enterprises, they're like, "We're struggling with adoptionAnd I feel like there's a, there's help that's gonna be needed within organizations. And the reason I-- we, we pulled this thing together, the goal was what is happening in the industry and how can we help customers make sure that they can make the most of it? Because we are in one of the most foundational movements that we have seen in human history, and, um, it's-- we, we, we gotta make sure that we make the most of it. So that was one, is the capabilities overhang is real. The second area is I'd say that it's harder when you go beyond some of the most more obvious use cases. Like for example, coding is a very, very good use case that, you know, you're starting to get a lot of success in. I mean, we just had our first product that we think will be in the next two weeks, one hundred percent written with, with AI, right? I don't think that's as easy when you go into every other function of the business, and that was actually very apparent that, hey, this is, this is gonna require some nuance and, um, understanding of how every business works. And then the third one, which is the, a really interesting takeaway, and Marc Andreessen talked about this in your podcast a few days ago. In fact, when I talked to him, I actually started with your podcast because it was so interesting, and then we dug into it a little bit more. But like-- and then, you know, Kevin Scott was, was also talking about this, but this notion of the fact that birth rates are going down and we have a demographic shift that's happening in the world, and there's gonna be more people that are in the older age bracket than, than the younger age bracket, and those older people are gonna need folks to take care of them. And historically in society, that's actually always been the case, but we might be at a point where that might not be the case. And when that's not the case, you know, we worry about AI taking our jobs. I think that survival of humanity depends on a successful AI because at s- at s- at some point, if you have a, you know, sixty percent of your population that's in a, in a demographic where you don't have enough people to take care of them, like that, that could cause a lot of human suffering. So I don't think people talk about this enough, and that's something that we have to take a moment and digest, that this is so important for our collective success, um, moving forward.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky8:16

      Something I was gonna say during that, uh, my chat with Mark and when he talked about that AI is basically coming just in time to save us because there aren't gonna be enough people to do the jobs. I was-- In my head, I was thinking, "This is like another, uh, signal that we are in a simulation." [chuckles]

   6. JPJeetu Patel8:30

      [laughs]

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky8:31

      That things are working out just right for us. What are the chances?

   8. JPJeetu Patel8:34

      The older I get, the more I believe that we are actually in a simulation. You know, I-- the first time I heard that concept, um, I thought it was such an absurd concept. Now I'm like, "You know, this is

3. 8:45 – 15:33

   Transforming Cisco into an Al-first company

   1. JPJeetu Patel8:45

      might actually be happening." You never know.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky8:47

      Following this thread, a lot of companies are trying to adjust to this new world. You are doing an incredible job at actually doing this. We got connected through Kevin Weil, who is former CPO at OpenAI, now head of science at OpenAI, and the way he described it is the work that you have done to turn Cisco, the way he described it, from an older, slower, more traditional, uh, enterprise to a very AI-forward company. Uh, how many employees do you guys have? You said forty-five thousand.

   3. JPJeetu Patel9:15

      We have ninety thousand employees. Forty-three thousand watched the stream.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky9:18

      So the big question for you is like, this is-- it feels like it's really working, and this is very difficult to do at a company of that scale. A lot of leaders are trying to make it work. What are two or three things that you've done that you think have been most impactful and, uh, effective in helping Cisco lean into AI, not be scared of it, not... and actually, you know, embrace the future?

   5. JPJeetu Patel9:39

      You know, i- innovation in my mind is a choice. So like, you know, I, I always find it interesting when people say, "Well, you know, you're a large company, you can't innovate. You're a small company, you can innovate." It's like, no, it's, it's just a choice. Every day you come into work, and you can choose to be thinking about being creative, or you can choose to not be creative. It's, it's like a little binary... It's a binary choice you can make every hour, right? Every minute of every day. And so we made that choice that says Cisco is gonna be not just an iconic company and not... You know, Chuck Robbins, our CEO, says this very eloquently. He's like, "I want Cisco not just to be an iconic company. I want Cisco to also be an iconic and innovative company." And so we gotta make sure that we are actually innovating with the set of constraints that we are dealt with. You know, like e- every company has their own set of constraints, and we have our own set of constraints, and we have to make sure that given those constraints, we have to actually innovate really well. Now, what has... what are the two or three things that have happened that have really helped us out? One was, um, being very clear on what is up for debate and what is not up for debate. Because w- what can end up happening is you can always have a pocket veto in a large company, where if you ask enough number of people, people say no. If you're a large company, you ask enough number of people, someone's gonna say no, right? And so when you have conviction about something that's happening, that is gonna be a bet that you need to place. Like, you know, what, what most people think in large companies is large companies don't experiment. That is in fact not true. Large companies experiment a lot. What large companies don't do is when an experiment works, they don't go all in and double down. They try to keep hedging. We didn't hedge on AI. We, we are so-- We said we're gonna go all in. That was number one. What that meant was we had to get people to understand that their personal success and the success of the company are very aligned in us getting dexterous with the use of AI. That means that if they feel like for some reason AI is gonna take their job or AI is gonna be negative for them, we have to reassure them that that was not the case. But the reverse was guaranteed to be the case, that if you didn't use AI, if you weren't gonna be dexterous in whatever job function you're doing, then your job is probably not gonna be that relevant over here in the long run. So that was the first thing that we did was that, that was a... I'm not a big fan of top-down, um, hierarchy of going out and doing things. In fact, I, deep down inside, I don't respect hierarchy as much.I feel like it, it can constrain you at times. But I wanted to make sure-- on this one, we were very, very deliberate. The entire company is on the same page. We are an AI-first company, right? And this happened... W-we were kind of working towards it even prior to ChatGPT, but ChatGPT became that seminal moment in, uh, November of '22 that we actually did that. So that was one. Number two was we had to make sure that we defined what success looked like. The way that individual success was defined was everyone wanted to be a GM at Cisco. They wanted to own their own fiefdom, be a general manager, 'cause they felt like th- in order for me to move up the ranks, I need to be a general manager. Which means I need to have my own sales team, I need to have my own marketing team, I need to have my own product team, I need to have my own engineering team. I'm gonna make sure I run my own silo. And if you're a forty billion dollar business in product revenues, forty-five billion, whatever, um, um, we, we were at the time, um, and, and then all of a sudden your goal is that you're gonna just run a bunch of forty million dollar businesses and break it up into a series of forty million dollar businesses, that's actually not a good thing for the company. So, so the thing we did was we said, "We have to become not a holding company of two hundred and fifty-one acquisitions and thousands of different products. We have to become a platform company." And the characteristic of a platform is you have to be tightly integrated, where the customer feels the same emotion no matter what product of ours they use, right? There's the same set of expectations that can be served: reliability, trust, elegance in design, um, solving a problem in the most efficient way. Those are the things we, we wanna strive to do. But you don't have to buy everything all at once, because we also wanna be realistic about the fact that not every customer only uses Cisco top to bottom. There's, there's an ecosystem. So loosely coupled, but tightly integrated. You don't have to buy everything all at once, but boy, when you do buy two things together, they work like magic. So that was the second big thing we did. And then the third one we did was we said, "Let's make sure that we have a mental model shift in the company." And we did this about five, five and a half years ago. Which when I first joined, this was a very deliberate decision, which was, we cannot operate in a walled garden. We have to make sure that we operate in an open ecosystem, which means we have to be completely comfortable with having a competitor that we're gonna partner with. And that's okay. You know, we don't have to think about this in a zero-sum manner where i- in order for me to win, someone has to lose. We can partner, because if we-- if a customer has made a choice of going with company A and company B, and we happen to be one of those two companies, we owe it to the customer to invest in their success in that other company, because if the customer succeeds, that success has a flow-through rate to you that's gonna be pretty high. And so that's what we did. And that-- I think that's been... Those principles of building great products, but making sure that it operates like a platform and having an open ecosystem, I think has been kind of central. And then not being confused about the fact that we'll

4. 15:33 – 19:09

   What Cisco actually does in the Al infrastructure stack

   1. JPJeetu Patel15:33

      be AI first from the top down.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky15:34

      I wanna take a tangent and make sure people understand what Cisco even does these days. I think as a, a layperson, you'll think about Cisco and you're like, "Okay, they, uh... Webex? Yes. They make maybe some routers." You guys are s- key to this m- massive AI infrastructure buildout that's happening right now. You're a major player in this. I don't think people realize this, people listening to this podcast. Give us just like a quick glimpse into w- how Cisco fits into this massive buildout and just, like, what is Cisco these days?

   3. JPJeetu Patel16:03

      Cisco is the critical infrastructure company for the AI era. What does that mean? If you think about where the constraints are right now, if you think that AI is gonna be one of the biggest movements, and then you ask yourself the question, what could hold AI back? There's three things where we feel like we can have a direct impact that can hold AI back. Number one is there's an infrastructure constraint. There's just not enough power, compute, and network bandwidth in the world to go out and satiate the needs of AI. Number two is there's a trust deficit. If people don't trust these systems, they're not gonna use them, and right now there's a lot of mistrust in these systems. You know, hallucination is a feature when you're writing poetry, but when you're trying to go out and run predictable systems, a hallucination can be a bad thing. And these models are n- unpredictable. They're non-deterministic, and so they have to make sure that they have safety and security kind of factored into them. And then the third area is a data gap. Like, so far we've trained these models with, you know, um, human-generated data publicly available on the internet, but we are running out of human-generated data publicly available on the internet to train the models. And every company is gonna differentiate based on their own proprietary enterprise data being used to train the models, synthetic data, and machine data, which is where the most amount of growth is. And the third category of machine data, we can play a massive role in at Cisco. So what does Cisco do then? If you think about a GPU, which is what everyone now has... is very clear because of the great job that Jensen has done, that here's what a GPU's core contribution is to AI. If these GPUs aren't networked together, you don't have AI. Because it used to be that you could train a model on a single GPU, but then what happened was the model got too big to be put on a single GPU, so then you add a server with eight GPUs that got connected together, so you could train a model with eight GPUs. But then that wasn't good enough, so then what happened was you said, "I'm gonna have a rack of servers that I'm gonna network together." That at some point wasn't big enough, and so then they said, "I'm gonna have a cluster of racks that are connected together." And those... That connected together is the operative word. That's what we end up doing, is NVIDIA makes the GPUs and we connect those GPUs together. AMD makes the GPUs, we connect them together. And now what's happened, Lenny, is-You have these data centers that might be hundreds of kilometers apart that need to operate like one coherent cluster, which means that they're completely in sync. Every GPU is in sync with each other when you're doing a training run, and that requires a very sophisticated set of technologies that we build to make sure that you could have two data centers 800 kilometers apart, but boy, they run like completely in sync with each other. And that's what Cisco does. We provide the networking, we provide the optics technology, we provide the safety and security technology, we provide the observability, we provide, um, you know, uh, the, um, uh, the data platform, all of those things together for making sure that we provide critical

5. 19:09 – 24:36

   The future of Al

   1. JPJeetu Patel19:09

      infrastructure for the AI era.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky19:10

      So being on the inside of this massive investment that is happening across the world, what do you think isn't being priced in into where things are heading, into how much life will change, or just like the scale of this, of this build-out?

   3. JPJeetu Patel19:25

      Years ago, I'd had a chance to meet with Ray Kurzweil. Um, you know, he was the chief scientist at Google for a while, and I think he still is. And he had talked about-- He was writing this book called, um, Live Long Enough to Live Forever. And so I was talking to him, I'm like: What is the impact to human population if all of a sudden you can have 15 generations living simultaneously because we have an indefinite span of life? 'Cause now all of a sudden, you know, everything has to change. Like, how does housing wor- housing work? How does agriculture work? How does transportation work? How does... Uh, like everything changes. And he looked at me, and he, he had the most profound answer. And he said: You know, most people can't think exponentially because they always think exponentially maybe on a single dimension. But what ends up happening in these things is you can sometimes... You have to keep in mind that exponentiality happens across multiple dimensions all at once. So if you do have an indefinite span of life, you have to assume that humans are creative enough that they're gonna find a way to have a three-day crop cycle, and they probably will have 5,000-story, you know, skyscrapers. And there will be a bunch of things in society that we have assumed are not solvable that'll now be solvable. So when you go back to your question and say, what, what changes in this entire equation that has not been factored in well? I think today, AI is looked at largely as a productivity tool and an aggregation mechanism. I have data all over, and I'm gonna be able to make sure that language can be used to compose the data in a way that I can give you, Lenny, the ques- answer to the question that you're looking for. That, I think, is like the .00001% of the tip of the iceberg, right? The reality is, is we will have original insights generated that don't exist in the human corpus of knowledge, and we will have the physical world get augmented to language where capacity is augmented to humans. And what we have to be careful of is that that capacity is working on behalf of humans. But if that capacity is augmented to humans, you can now do things that you really care to do and not do things that you don't care to do. And so like our biggest realization that we had when we were using Codex, for example, when we were writing, you know, code with, um, OpenAI's, you know, kind of model and development tool, was the first three months we were screwing around with this, and then there was this light bulb that went off. In fact, there was a forward deployed engineer from OpenAI that told us about this. She says: "Hey, stop trying to think of this as a tool. Think of this as a teammate that got added to your team, and your framing will change, and the way in which you actually use the technology will change." And that, that essentially, if you compound that to how society operates, that's gonna be pretty profound as an implication. While keeping in mind that these safety and security risks are non-trivial, and they're real, and you can't be, you know, completely flippant about them because how an AI identifies its own success and its own ambition will really matter, and we have to make sure that we actually keep guardrails around that because it is in service of humans. It is not to go out and build a society by itself. And I do think that, that-- tho-those are important kind of checks that you have, ch-checks and balances you have to keep in mind. But the thing that people sometimes miss out in this very polarized narrative, which is we are either gonna have nothing to do in society or this is gonna be completely useless as a piece of technology. I think that's not a helpful narrative. In fact, what is helpful is saying, as we reconstruct society for the next phase, how can we make sure that life gets infinitely better? How can we make sure that diseases get solved? How can we make sure that poverty gets ero- eradicated? How can we make sure that how people learn and find excitement and joy out of life gets compounded meaningfully? If that happens, I think there's goodness that comes out of this.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky23:55

      A line that I often think about is Elon has had this, uh, thought that the best case scenario with AI-- 'cause he was a very like AI doomer, uh, for a long time. Uh, and I, I think the reason he got leaned into AI is like, I need to help steer this in a direction that isn't gonna harm the world. Uh, the way he described it is the best case scenario for humanity is we're the house cat, where AI is just like, "Okay, nice. Just, just keep sitting here with me, and I'll take care of you."

   5. JPJeetu Patel24:19

      But he-- By the way, the things, the things that he is doing right now are nothing short of extraordinary. And, you know, for all theCritique that one can have, like the, the, the level of kind of deep thinking that's going on with his company, it's, it's just crazy.

6. 24:36 – 29:46

   Raising kids in the AI era

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky24:36

      So as you've been, uh, thinking about where things are heading, I, I've, I've been liking to ask this question with-- for people with kids. Is there anything you're kind of shifting in how you raise your, your daughter, keeping in mind where things are heading? And like are there skills you're trying to instill in her, values you're trying to instill in her that help her-- will help her thrive in this future?

   2. JPJeetu Patel24:56

      We made a choice, and I didn't know how that choice was gonna go. That was actually not even an active choice. It was a passive choice. Frankly, even might have been slightly intellectually lazy in the way that we did it, but it actually worked out pretty well in the sense that we didn't really deprive her of the use of technology. Like there's the school of thought that says keep technology away from the kids for a while. We didn't do that. And frankly, I didn't know how it was gonna work out because there are things about the way that the generation is-- And by the way, all of us, not just the new generation, but this kind of constantly being glued to your phone all the time and not being able to actually put that down and have a conversation, um, you know, is-- I think it's an important skill in humans to have and preserve over time. And in fact, as AI does more for us, we should be able to have more of this time where I don't have to worry about every notification that's coming on my phone e-every minute of the day because maybe I can be more present in the moment that I'm in. She just turned fifteen, and the night before she was turning fifteen, what I realized is she is so emotionally mature. We were sitting down one night, and she's like, "Hey, Dad, just so you know, um, I feel really good right now about having a very strong value system." I'm like, "Oh, okay. What does that mean?" And, "Say more." And she's like, "Well, can you name five things that you feel so convicted about that if the entire world disagreed with you..." This, this is the day before she's turning fifteen, okay? "The entire world disagreed with you, you would still feel like you were right on that, and that would not waver you." She's like, "I have a certain core set of things that I believe in, where I am completely confident that if everyone disagreed with me, I'm still good." Now, by the way, I have to kind of coach her on the, "Hey, when you get new data, be open-minded to changing your mind." But it was actually a very interesting dynamic, which is she-- you know, if we can have them be exposed to technology but have the right value system, you might actually have the best of both worlds. And, um, and you know, it's-- the day ain't over yet. She's fifteen. There's a lot of, you know, chances for her getting influenced by, uh, external factors and all of that. But what you have to do is make sure that you instill the right values, but then also expose them to the reality of what the world is today, uh, and not completely insulate them from that. And so I, I-- The way that it worked out, it did end up, end, end up working well, and, um, we were lucky, as for no credit to us. She was, she was able to use technology to get her EQ higher and higher, and, uh, we were lucky on that front. And we know it can go sideways the other way too, but I do feel like right now, at least for my one daughter, what we try to do is get her exposed to the technology but make sure that we focus a lot more on the values that we need to have that govern us on a day-to-day basis. You know, kindness, you know, not being arrogant, uh, hard work, work ethic, those things matter, and I don't think-- Those are timeless in my mind. I don't think those change because, you know, take risks, be creative, that kind of stuff.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky28:20

      Jeetu, these are parenting goals. As I hear this, I have a two-and-a-half-year-old, and it sounds like you've, you've done an amazing job raising your daughter.

   4. JPJeetu Patel28:28

      I would take zero credit for it. I think, um, I, I think she deserves a lot of credit for growing up to be who she's become, you know? And her mother.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky28:36

      [chuckles] Gotta, gotta shout out Mom.

   6. JPJeetu Patel28:38

      Yeah.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky28:39

      Uh, what's interesting is that, uh, I know Anthropic is really big, like this idea of values and just like how you operate. Anthropic has this constitution they released of how the values essentially of Claude, and it's so interesting how much similarity there is to how to raise a great person and to how to steer an AI correctly.

   8. JPJeetu Patel28:58

      That's right. And, and by the way, it's, um... Some of your beliefs and your system around you might change, but values tend to be pretty long-lasting, and culture in a company tends to be pretty long-lasting. Like, you know, when we, um-- Ben Horowitz talks about this very eloquently, that culture is just a set of norms that a company actually-- It's not, it's not a set of beliefs, it's a set of behaviors that you exude within the company. And it's, it's, it's actually very, very true because when things aren't going right, how do people behave to go solve problems and come together? Um, and that actually forms your cultural norms. And I think those cultural norms are-- it's very important to be intentional about it. And as you have more automation in the world, being intentional not just with humans, but also with machines and what you want to do to create the guardrails, I

7. 29:46 – 36:50

   “Permission to play” framework

   1. JPJeetu Patel29:46

      think is pretty important.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky29:47

      I'm gonna take us in a, a different direction. I talked to Aaron Levie, your former boss at Box-

   3. JPJeetu Patel29:54

      Dear, dear friend. Yeah

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky29:56

      ... CEO and friend. Uh, so I asked him just what should I ask you about? What's something that, uh, he, he learned from you that has stuck with him ever since working with you? And he, uh, shared this concept of the right to win, which he says has informed the way he thinks about strategy ever since. Talk about what this is and how folks might use this when they're thinking about product strategy, company strategy.

   5. JPJeetu Patel30:18

      One of the things that we would always talk about is in the areas that we're gonna participate, do we have permission to play? Every companyYou know, has to make sure that the way in which they provide points of insertion and logical entry into a market is a lot of times dependent on do you have the permission to play in that market? Do you have an avenue to get to your-- to have a route to market to be able to take that product? Just by building a product that is amazing in, in some area, you, you don't end up actually getting it to mass scale distribution. And so one of the things that we would always do is ask ourselves the question, we're building this new category or we're building this new capability. Is it gonna be logical for people that Box built it versus another company building it? You know, is it, is it gonna be logical for people that Cisco built it versus another company building it? So that's this notion of permission to play, the right to win. Do we have a right to win in that area because we have permission to play? And do we have the route to market to be able to take that product and get it to mass scale distribution? And if you can do those things right, then actually your dollars that you expend on building product actually have an outsized return. If not, then you can actually spend a... spend- end up spending a lot of money on product where the product people think, "Ah, these sales guys don't get it. They don't know how to sell it," especially in enterprise software. And the e- sales people think, "These product guys don't get it. They don't know how to build it." And so I think in order to stop that, what you have to do is you have to actually use your scale as an advantage, and you have to use the areas where you've got the ability to have permission to play, where people feel like this is very logical for a company like Cisco. Like when we say we are gonna network the GPUs and make sure that we actually have a trusted system in AI, that is not far-fetched for someone to go out and think about because it's a very natural thing for us to do because for the past forty years we've been doing it for the rest of the infrastructure that was not AI. And so that's not a far cry to say, "Okay, we'll now do it for AI," you know? And I think that was an area that Aaron and I spent, um, a fair... And by the way, you know, I'm glad that he, he took that out of me. There's so much I've learned from him. The biggest area I've learned from him is you never give up, and persistence beats intellect, and stamina beats intellect any day of the week, twice on Sunday. And that, that guy is as smart as they come, but that is not the why-- that's not the biggest reason he's successful. He's... The biggest reason he's successful is he has an enormous amount of staying power in the game. You know, going back to my daughter's comment of no matter what, what everyone else says, his convictions and belief, he will actually stick by them and actually get through, um, the hardest times.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky33:17

      I totally believe that. I, I feel like I'm not the smartest person in the room usually, and, uh, I succeed in large part 'cause I just work really hard. Um-

   7. JPJeetu Patel33:25

      You're, you're pretty smart though. Like I've, I've been watching your podcast for a while. Like you've done a pretty amazing job.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky33:30

      I appreciate it. So in this, um, this permission to win concept, the reason I think it's so important is it's so easy to build stuff now. Everyone's just building, building, building, building, launching, launching, launching, launching.

   9. JPJeetu Patel33:41

      Mm.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky33:41

       It feels like this is, uh, an increasingly important lever is why will we win in this space? Um, I'm curious if there's an example you can share either from Box or Cisco where it's just like, okay, this is like we're gonna do this because we, because we have the permission to, to play here.

   11. JPJeetu Patel33:57

       I agree with you in the sense that if, if generating code is something that becomes abundant, that doesn't mean you're gonna have better technology just because you can generate a lot of code. You still need human judgment. You still need a level of intuition on what problems are the right ones to solve. You still-- And yes, AI can help you with all of that, but it's not something that... Like, that's where humans have a superpower. They have instinct, and they can actually make sure that they can, you know, fulfill out a vision that says, "This is what I think this could be in, in the fullness of time." Um, and so that, that I think is pretty important. So the more... The easier it gets for us to get the bottlenecks out to generate code, the harder it gets for us to make sure that there's not AI slop in the market and that we actually are very selective on what are the things that are gonna be the most important things that solve the most important problems moving forward. Example of permission to play is... I mean, there's so many ideas. At a company the size of Cisco, we have constantly new ideas that keep coming up, you know? And then in those new ideas that keep coming up, people will always say, "Oh my goodness, this company is doing so well. We should just go into that market," or, "We should just go into this market." And ninety percent of the times, ninety-nine percent of the times I find myself saying no. And the reason for that is you have to be extremely selective of where you expend your calories, and that caloric expenditure is, is where... You know, if you expend your calories in a very focused way, the results you'll get from that focus area tend to be outsized and disproportionate. If you dissipate that caloric burn across multitude of different areas, nothing gets enough girth to be able to go out and drive it all the way through. And, and so like, you know, why are we not in business to consumer tech at Cisco, right? Like why, why are we not going out and building things that are, um, very, very B2C? Because I don't think we have a distribution channel that actually is within our DNA. I don't think that we've got permission to play there. That's an area where it would be extremely hard for people to grasp that Cisco should be the one who's participating in that. Now, can we do it? Of course, we can do itIs that where we wanna go, or do we wanna go where there's so much opportunity in the areas where we can actually prosecute with, with the, um, with the, with the ability to have s- you know, operate from a position of strength, that, um, you just get a much better return for the dollar that

8. 36:50 – 42:02

   Lessons from great CEOs

   1. JPJeetu Patel36:50

      you invest.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky36:51

      You mentioned Aaron as a CEO that you learned a lot from. I'm curious what other CEOs you've learned a lot from, and what's, what's something you learned from them?

   3. JPJeetu Patel36:59

      Chuck Robbins is one of my favorite humans, and not just because I work for him. Uh, I work for him because he's one of my favorite humans.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky37:08

      [chuckles]

   5. JPJeetu Patel37:09

      Um, and what I've learned from him, he had this kinda great line. There was this, um, you know, piece of press that I... Our, our media is very sen- sensationalist in, by, by definition, right? Like, they will try to create a very polarized view about the world when there actually isn't one. And most things in my life, things are not as extreme as you hear of the headlines of the media, you know? Uh, it's somewhere in the middle, right? And, uh, there was one time that there was this article that ran, and it was about, like, you know, giving me an unnecessary amount of credit and frankly not giving Chuck as much credit about something that he has actually done. Like, a lot of the movements that we've had internally wouldn't have happened if he had not hired me and given me agency to go do the things that I ne- needed to get done, and he was very much completely in sync with me on what needed to happen. Um, and so, you know, I, I... When I saw this article, I had no idea who the report... I, I reached out. I'm like, "Hey, I just wanna let you know this was not me saying it to someone." And he's like, "Oh, Jeetu, don't worry about it, man. What I've learned in life is if you don't care about who gets the credit, you just go a lot farther in life." And it's so profound, right, in so many ways, that he's just way too confident to let anything... And so the thing I've learned from Chuck is the importance of confidence and the importance of knowing what you're good at and what you're not good at. And when you're not good, you're gonna assemble a team of people around you. He's just, he's just masterful at that. And it happens-

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky38:59

      And by the way, he's the, he's the CEO of Cisco, in case pe- people haven't-

   7. JPJeetu Patel39:01

      That's right. He's the CEO of Cisco.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky39:03

      Yeah.

   9. JPJeetu Patel39:03

      He's the chair of the Business Roundtable. Uh, he's, um, very dear friend of mine, and, um, and I feel like there's a lot to learn from that kind of mental model and mindset. And, um, I, I, I've been lucky enough, Lenny, that... And this is just dumb luck. The people that I've worked with and for are all very, very close to me, and I just don't let them go from my life. And so one of the things, for example, is I worked with Aaron, and then when I was leaving, it was very emotional, uh, but I wanted to do something different. But we committed to each other that we're gonna have dinner every six weeks. And Aaron, and there's another co-founder, Jeff Queisser, and I, three of us, every six weeks in Palo Alto, we have dinner. You know? And it's one of the most, uh, special things that I c- I still do, and it's a tradition now. It's been going on for six years, and, um, and I love it. You know? Um, you, um, you look at someone like Chuck. We have... I s- I start with my day with talking to him in the morning. We, we text each other, uh, and then I end the day talking to him in the evening, and we probably touch base at least four or five times a day. They're not long conversations at all points in time, but we're constantly in contact with each other, and I feel like that only happens when you've established enough trust. There's... My, my, my first boss when I moved to California is this guy named Rick Devenuti, uh, and then, and then another guy named Jeremy Burton. You know, Rick Devenuti is still my coach. I see him every two weeks. Jeremy is someone that's a very dear friend of mine, and we're neighbors, and then we moved and b- bought a place next to his, um, just so that we could be close to him. And these are, like, special people in your life that have enriched your life in very different ways that I, I think you just have to make sure that you treasure.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky40:53

       [instrumental music] Today's episode is brought to you by Samsara. If you listen to this podcast, you know that we spend a lot of time talking about building things that sit on a screen, onboarding funnels, mobile apps, and checkout flows. Samsara is building products for the physical world. First responders racing to emergencies, truck drivers carrying critical supplies, construction workers building our cities and data centers. These are people who put everything on the line every single day, and Samsara's technology protects them. Samsara is solving complex problems at the intersection of hardware, software, and edge AI, and their AI doesn't just detect events. It reasons about the intent and answers questions like, "Did that truck driver brake abruptly because they were distracted, or was that a heroic act?" If you wanna ground LLMs in messy real world telemetry or solve edge AI constraints at a planetary scale, Samsara wants to talk to you. If you like playing with enormous datasets, moving fast, and working in small teams, come help build the technology that makes the physical world safer and more efficient. Visit samsara.com/lenny to learn more. That's S-A-M-S-A-R-A.com/lenny.

9. 42:02 – 50:54

   Leading at scale

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky42:03

      So you're currently CPO, uh, at Cisco. You... I think the team under you, is it 25,000 people? Is that the right number?

   2. JPJeetu Patel42:09

      About 30,000, but, um-

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky42:11

      30,000 people. Okay. [chuckles]

   4. JPJeetu Patel42:13

      Yeah.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky42:13

      What's, what's something that you wish you'd known before taking on this role?

   6. JPJeetu Patel42:18

      I don't know if it was... I mean, I instinctively kind of knew it, but it was very, very, uh, accentuated at Cisco because when you... Like, you know, when people say, "Oh, is, um, is scale hard?" And my perspective has always been that the absence of scale is way harder than scale. What do I mean by that? Like, if I have a startup-With three people. And we need to prosecute another idea, and that idea requires, um, you know, five people working on it. I have to go raise money, right? Like it's, it's an int- or I have to pivot my entire business. If you have thirty thousand people and you have an idea that requires five people, you just figure out a way that you allocate the dollars internally and say, "Let's go prosecute this idea." So in my mind, I always felt like absence of scale was way harder than the presence of scale, and operating with- within scale seemed like it was like, yeah, you have more opportunity to do it. What I found over the years, not just at Cisco, but even when I'm-- b-because I ran a small startup in, in, um, in Chicago for like seventeen years before I moved over to the Valley. What I found in the large companies is the communication framework and the lossiness of communication, the telephone game, so to say, has a profoundly negative effect if you're not intentional about it and if you're not careful of it. And there was this board member that we had. There's a couple board members, um, you know, our lead director, Michael Capellas, is amazing. Um, there's this other board member, you know, Ke-Kevin is amazing, and then there's this one board member, Wes Bush, who we recently, um, you know, wrote off, but he used to be on our board. And when I got this job, he pulled me aside, he's like, "Jeetu, I'm gonna tell you something. I'm gonna give you some advice, and, um, take it or leave it, but I think it's gonna be important for you to keep it in mind." I'm like, "What's that?" And he goes, "Whatever you do, um, don't think about your story of the company as a marketing exercise. Think about it as the most intrinsic foundational exercise of the company, and always be the custodian of the message. Don't delegate that to someone else to give. Because if you have three, four, five, six, seven layers between you and the person who's actually doing the job in the front line, what you don't wanna do is play the telephone game and assume that people will just cascade it when you go to your team and then say, 'Okay, that team will cascade to the next team, cascade to the next team, cascade to the next team.' Every one of them will add a flavor with well-intentioned, and then by the time it gets to the end, people won't know what it is. So always own telling the story." And I'm like, "That seems like it's a lot," because, like, we have a very broad portfolio. We do all of these events. It's, you know, like I'm gonna have to s- stand on stage for ninety minutes and just talk. He's like, "Please do that. Make sure you don't..." And, and I initially... The hidden benefit that came out of it that I did not realize is it massively, Lenny, simplified our business. And you know why? Because we have such a broad business with so many different industries, it's impossible for someone to be a deep expert in every single one of them across the board. Like, there's just way too much surface area. But the things that we wanna convey to the market that the market should take away from us, if that story is not something that I understand well enough to be able to convey it, how do I first expect twenty thousand of my sellers to be able to go tell it to the market? And how do I expect my customers to be able to digest that story? There's zero chance that would happen, right? And so that was my, my kinda big takeaway from this, which is don't, um, delegate the storytelling, and the storytelling is not a marketing exercise after you built the product. The story is why you build the product, to make the story come real. And so make sure that the story is there first, and then that story has evidence and proof based on the products that you're building.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky46:44

      I had a conversation with Matt Mc- MacInnis, who's COO, now CPO at Rippling, and he had a similar piece of advice, which I think is also... It's like a, uh, adjacent advice, which is the intensity of, of an idea or, or a plan drops at every level that it goes from CO to the next layer and layer. And your job as a leader is to maintain that intensity, not to buffer it from the employees, but to maintain exactly the same intensity. And it feels like that's, uh, in addition to also just the s- keep the story the same. Like, don't filter it, don't change it. Although your advice is even different, just like you actually go to the team working on it and, and tell the story yourself. Don't even let-

   8. JPJeetu Patel47:22

      I, I wanna make sure that they hear it from me directly-

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky47:25

      Yeah.

   10. JPJeetu Patel47:25

       -so that there's no lossiness. You know, like we have this concept in networking called packet loss, when the... You're, you know, you actually send packets over a wire, and you have a loss of packet, then it actually there's, um, um, there's loss of data. Like, you don't wanna have packet loss in your storytelling from you to the person on the front line because-

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky47:43

       It's a direct Ethernet Cat 5 connection.

   12. JPJeetu Patel47:45

       This is just a direct connection, [chuckles] and, you know, there's no packet loss on this one. Like, you, you gotta make sure it gets to the end intended audience. And I think the reason for that is, as companies get large, they can lose touch with the front lines. Like, everyone gets really good with the math of the business, but they don't really always preserve the soul of the business. And there's a lossiness that happens because, you know, if you have seven, eight layers between you and the front line, even the message that's coming back to you from them is actually getting lossy. And so what you have to do is just preserve... And I think, um, what was said earlier about the intensity is the same way, which is you gotta preserve the intensity, you gotta preserve the sanctity of the message, and you gotta preserve the clarity of the message so that everyone is clear on the direction we're going down. And if you can stay clear and stay motivated about that direction and make sure that everyone's on the same page on what needs to be done to execute, you will have success. If not, you will actually have guaranteed failure.

   13. LRLenny Rachitsky48:45

       How do you actually operationalize this without just, uh, being overloaded with work and constantly having to, you know, meet with every team and remind them of the story?

   14. JPJeetu Patel48:53

       The first thing I feel is you have to have very clear thinking because the clarity of thought is what brings clarity of communication. So you have to spend the time with your team in sweating the details on what, what it is that you wanna do and why you wanna do it. The context of why is so lost. Uh, and constantly reminding people why it's important and having the least amount of asymmetry between the topmost layer in the organization and the bottommost layer is super-- Now, by the way, you know, I'm a Section 16 officer. There are certain things that, for example, you're in a quiet period, you can't go talk about to someone else during that time period. Like, y-y-you know, th-that's not allowed. However, the most amount of context that you can provide them in the way that you can because you're allowed to, the better off you are. And always treat people like adults. You know? Like what I've found is oftentimes when you go into corporate environments, like people start becoming very sterile in the facts that they provide. And sometimes it's okay to just say, "Hey, we screwed up here. This was really bad." That's not meant to... You know, like o-one of the things that I've found to be very counterintuitive, because every management book that you read will tell you otherwise, what do they say? praise in public and criticize in private. I fundamentally disagree with that notion. I think what you have to do is establish enough trust among the team so that you're comfortable critiquing and debating in public. But when you're in private, take that moment to build the trust. Because if you build that trust, and you tell them that you've got their back, and you create a level of safety there, in public,

10. 50:54 – 57:45

    Why Jeetu inverts the ‘praise in public, criticize in private’ rule

    1. JPJeetu Patel50:55

       you don't wanna be in a mode of posturing. You wanna be in a mode of problem-solving. When you're just giving people perfunctory compliments all the time, and everything's just hunky dory, rose-colored glasses, great, all your dashboards look green, but you're growing the business at, like, one and a half percent, like, there's, there's an asymmetry there. Something's broken. You know? It's like, what do we need to do over here? And so what I tend to do is use the exact opposite approach. I tend to be very, very direct in public. You know, be respectful, but be direct in public. "This is not working. Let me tell you why it's not working. We gotta face the facts." And then be very, very kind of, um, clear with people that you got their back in private. And don't be stingy with words on that front. You know, um, because I feel like some... there are times when people are very stingy with words with people in private. You can't be stingy with words over there. And don't be, don't be stingy with critique in public because I think people need to make sure that we're, we're solving problems together. And if we don't know the play that we're executing, if we don't know the things that we're gonna need to do, then, then I, I'm, I'm not really certain if you're making collective progress. And I think it's not gonna be fulfilling to either you or the recipient at some point. And those, those compliments will feel hollow because you didn't mean them, because you to- you, you were trying to put it in between, you know, like Ben Horowitz says in "Hard Things About Hard Things" that you, you have a shit sandwich, you say something really nice to someone, then you say something that's not really nice, and then you put... No, just treat people like adults. Tell them the facts. Watch your tone. I still have to work on that. There are times when I get very passionate. People think like, you know... But watch your tone. And make sure that you debate... Conflict is a necessary condition of business, but the only way that you can have productive conflict is if you've established trust, and the only way that you can establish trust is by making sure that you spend the time to establish the trust. So spend the time to establish the trust, but then focus on the best idea winning and actually having the debate.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky53:07

       Is there maybe one more lesson that you learned from this? Or I guess it's, uh, uh, something you wish you'd known before getting into this role. Is there anything else that comes to mind?

    3. JPJeetu Patel53:15

       I was an apps guy. You know, I've, I operated in the apps layer. I worked at Box. And even when I was at EMC, I, I was building apps that, you know, uh, you build for the end user. Infrastructure is a different game. And the thing that I learned about infrastructure is you don't always get the glory, but you always get the blame.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky53:40

       [chuckles] Perfect.

    5. JPJeetu Patel53:42

       And, and you have to be comfortable with the fact that you are working in a way that other people get the glory. Great infrastructure companies, the application companies get the glory when they're running on that infrastructure. You know? And so you, you have to be hardwired in infrastructure to orient on your ecosystem's success, not just your own success. And that is probably one of the lessons that I learned at Cisco in a very stark way, which I, I didn't fully appreciate it until I got into the details of the infrastructure, going, "Wow, if this thing doesn't work..." You know, like we were, um, uh... Every single time our infrastructure doesn't work... This morning I was with, um, with a medical institution. I, I, I was with a healthcare company this morning, and they were telling me that, you know, they were, they're very complimentary. They were thanking us on the partnership. I, I asked them, "Why do you, why are you doubling down with us?" And they're like, "Because when the infrastructure doesn't work, people die."Someone doesn't get dialysis, someone doesn't get a surgery done, and we need to make sure that we're working with someone where the infrastructure's working. And so I feel like at that point in time, you can't be navel-gazing too much about, look how cool you are because you did something. You have to just make sure that you're really immediately shifting your focus to what does the customer do and what does the ecosystem do with your infrastructure so that the outcome is achieved? And you have to get very outcome-oriented. Um, and I feel like that was something that I always in- intellectually knew, but I didn't fully realize it until I came here on how important of a mindset shift that is. You are not talking about yourself. You're talking about the system just working. No one will come and tell you, "Hey, Jeetu, um, thank you so much. My network worked today." Right? But the moment it doesn't work, they're gonna call you and say, "You know what? My network's not working and my people can't work, and patients are dying in the hospital." And I think you just have to be comfortable with that.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky56:00

       It's so interesting how this adv- how this lesson connects so directly to the lesson you learned from Chuck, the CEO of Cisco, which is don't, don't expect the, the praise and the credit. You need to be comfortable with other people getting credit for your work.

    7. JPJeetu Patel56:14

       That's right. And by, by, by the way, it's not surprising given that he spent like, I don't know, 26, 28 years over here. Um, like, you know, why that... You know, he, he's, he's conditioned with the fact that he's focused on other people succeeding from it-

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky56:32

       Yeah

    9. JPJeetu Patel56:32

       ... from his pitfall-

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky56:33

        And-

    11. JPJeetu Patel56:33

        ... your work, you know?

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky56:35

        It feels like there's so many metaphors and, uh, corollaries to, uh, networking as a way to think about leadership and, and living life.

    13. JPJeetu Patel56:42

        [laughs] There really is.

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky56:44

        Oh, man. I bet you guys have all kinds of examples.

    15. JPJeetu Patel56:48

        Really, re- it's a, it's a good exercise to actually go through and, uh, create the corollary of, um, parallelism between life and networks.

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky56:56

        Hmm. I'm thinking about just like how many friends... Like, uh, Dunbar's number, like how many nodes can you have in a network before it starts to slow down?

    17. JPJeetu Patel57:04

        Yeah. Yeah.

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky57:04

        Maybe 150. Oh, man. Okay. Anyway, I was [laughs] I like that your mind's spinning.

    19. JPJeetu Patel57:09

        I'm thinking like how many can you have? I think more than 150-

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky57:12

        Yeah

    21. JPJeetu Patel57:12

        ... for sure. [laughs]

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky57:14

        [laughs] I hope so. I hope so. Um, I also was thinking about Intel, the whole Intel Inside move was such a clever way to break through that, where, you know-

    23. JPJeetu Patel57:23

        That's right

    24. LRLenny Rachitsky57:23

        ... no one would know Intel, so they're just like slap a sticker, Intel Inside.

    25. JPJeetu Patel57:27

        And by the way, they are... Um, you know, Lip-Bu is a, is a very dear friend. Pat Gelsinger used to be my mentor at EMC. Um, and so, uh, both those people that have had such a profound contribution to that industry in general, um, like when you start thinking about them, they're very, very much on that,

11. 57:45 – 58:35

    Surrounding yourself with good human beings

    1. JPJeetu Patel57:45

       on that mode.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky57:46

       I could see how you pull together this, uh, insane collection of humans if you're just... Feels like you're just friends with everybody.

    3. JPJeetu Patel57:51

       I feel like it's... Life's too short not to be, and I'm only friends with people that I feel are good human beings. Like, what I try not to do is I try to minimize my time, no matter how successful they are, with people whose energy I don't vibe with because I think life's too short, you know? And, um, in my mind, one of the most off-putting things is... Look, all of us have a healthy ego. There are times when ego gets manifested with insecurity, and you have to make sure that you're at least self-aware enough to know when your ego is starting to take over your behavior in a way that's counterproductive, and all of those things are super important. But what I think is extremely important is that

12. 58:35 – 1:03:21

    Lessons from loss

    1. JPJeetu Patel58:35

       you, um... Like, it- life is just fun to live when, when you love the people you are around. Can I digress for a second in this one story-

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky58:47

       Absolutely

    3. JPJeetu Patel58:48

       ... that I, I... So I'll, I'll tell you the story that was... So my mother was, um, you know, she passed away two and a half years ago, but she was extremely sick in the hospital for like, um, eight weeks before she passed away. And I was very close to my mom, like the... She was my, my everything, you know? And, and we were only child. I grew up with a rough childhood. I had to... You know, my dad was a high-stakes kind of con man like Bernie Madoff. I didn't wanna be any part of that, so I'd actually left India, come over here, hadn't gone, uh, hadn't seen him, and so he was very abusive to my mom. So like there was a bunch of that that had happened. And so we had had a very, you know, kind of difficult early childhood life for me, and her and I had bonded during that, that time very, very, you know, uh, at a very deep level. And so when she ca- came to America, um, you know, we kind of... She, she al- always wanted to have her own place, but she kind of lived very close by, and she was very dependent on me, on, you know, emotionally and in every way. And so I had almost become a parent to her, and at the last eight weeks, things flipped and she was, um, she became a parent again. And so we were, you know, kind of... We were getting to the point where she was ending her journey, and I was sitting like 1:00 in the morning at the, um, at the bedside by her in the hospital. I was living in the hospital at the time, and she was sleeping, and I was just crying profusely. And she wakes up, and she knows why I'm crying, because she's gonna be gone soon. And she looks at me, Lenny, and she's like all perplexed, and she's like, "I had no idea that you loved me so much." Now, by the way, this is like the most, uh, abnormal thing for me to hear because I'm like, "What are you talking about, Mom?" Like, I... Like, "You're, you, you're one of the most important people in my life, and I was-Like, everything that I did was to make sure that my mom was okay. Why did I-- why did it feel that way to her? Because she didn't know how I was thinking, and that kind of notion of people don't know what's going on in your mind is so important, that my biggest lesson from that was don't be stingy with words. 'Cause even my mother, that knows me inside and out, didn't know how much I loved her, that there's no chance that people in the business world are gonna know how you feel if you're not explicit with them. And so I'm actually very clear with people when I find them, and when I find them rewarding, I let them know how much they mean, because I genuinely find a lot of energy coming out of that. And b, the circle of friends just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and I f- I found that to be, like, a super rewarding thing in life. And, um, and you're right, most of the people that were at the AI summit are, are dear friends, you know? And isn't that the-- just a better way to live life?

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:01

       I've-- I think we've uncovered one of the secrets of your success, which is, uh, just tell people how you feel and help them see that you appreciate them, make it clear that you appreciate them, that you value them, which is-- a lot of people don't do. They just kind of assume they know that, yeah, that they like you.

    5. JPJeetu Patel1:02:16

       And don't make it fake.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:18

       And don't make it fake.

    7. JPJeetu Patel1:02:19

       Don't make it fake. You know, if you don't love someone, don't tell them you love them. It's like [chuckles] that's the other thing that I have. Like, you know.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:27

       It's so interesting. I just, um, we just did a little interview kind of thing with my mother-in-law m- meant for our, our son, just, like, for him to have when he's older. Uh, they just, like, interviewed her about her story and stuff, and they asked her at the end of it, "What's something you want Jude," which is his name, "to, to, to know, a lesson to learn from you?" And it's to just, if you love someone, tell them you love them as much as you can.

    9. JPJeetu Patel1:02:52

       Yeah. It's so true. You're so intentional about the way in which you do these things. I wish I'd done like a... I should do that now, now that I think about it. Like, do a podcast for my daughter that's only for her when she gets older.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:06

        I'll send you these. This group, they do this. I think they're in the Bay Area, but it's incredible. It's, like, a whole documentary thing where they f- interview you, film all your life for a little bit, and then make a whole documentary from that.

    11. JPJeetu Patel1:03:17

        Oh, really? Oh, wow. I'd love that, actually.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:19

        Yes. Oh, man. They're gonna get a lot of business right

13. 1:03:21 – 1:10:21

    Career advice: platforms, hunger, and preparation

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:21

       now.

    2. JPJeetu Patel1:03:21

       There you go. [laughs]

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:22

       [laughs] Let me end with, end with a question around just your journey. So today you lead product at a, a ninety thousand person company. You manage thirty thousand people. Like you said, you, you grew up in, in India, in Bombay, uh, very far outside Silicon Valley. A lot of people hearing this today are kind of in a similar boat. They're way outside of the valley. They're, they're maybe don't have a lot of obvious way to break in, to ha- they don't have a lot of opportunity, and they see someone like you, and that's their dream. What would your advice be to someone in, in that place right now?

    4. JPJeetu Patel1:04:00

       The platform that you choose and the quality of problems that you pick to solve actually determine a lot of the path of success for you. And typically, like, harder problems have a higher likelihood of success because the harder problems are the ones that attract better people to that problem, and business is a team sport. And if you attract people to the, the problems that are hard and important enough to solve, then, then you get the best team. And when you get the best team, your odds of winning just go up exponentially. So most people think I'm gonna go out and pick a easy enough problem to solve, and it's like, you don't get the best team attracted to you to start up a lemonade stand. Very important job, but that might not be the thing that actually gets the best team to come to you. But if you actually pick a hard enough problem to solve, you'll get the best team to come. So that's one. Number two, I'd say that you can teach and learn a lot of things in life. I don't think you can learn hunger, or you can't teach hunger. So find what you're intrinsically hungry about and make sure that you try to pursue that area, and that's different from passion about something. It's like in everything that you do in work, you have to just understand the formula that there's gonna be thirty percent of the stuff that you do at work that you're just gonna hate, and you have to get used to things that you hate that you have to do. You know, um, but for there-- but find something that you're really hungry about that makes you wanna come in, um, to work every day because the mission is worth the, um, um, the expenditure of, uh, of energy that you're, you're, you're putting into it. And I'll leave you with a story which was, like, I'd, I hadn't gone to India in a long time. When I left India, I didn't go back. I left in '91, and I hadn't gone back in any kind of meaningful way until 2017, um, you know, because of all the trauma in childhood. I was like, you know... I was, uh, for whatever reason, I hadn't gone back. But I, I took my daughter and we went to Agra to see the Taj Mahal, and we went there, and there was this tour guide. His name was Raj. And this tour guide was like-- He understood so much about the product that he was selling, which was the tour of the Taj Mahal. I don't know if he was making this shit up or not, but it sounded really good, and he seemed like he was kind of really on it. But when we were walking back, there's all these people, and he would just start talking to them, and he'd bust out in different languages. He'd talk to someone in German, talk to someone in French, someone in Spanish, someone in Hindi, someone in, you know, and at some point in time in Mandarin. And so at some point in time I kind of stopped him. "Dude, how many languages do you speak?" He's like, "Oh, I speak like, I don't know, twelve or fourteen," or some ridiculous number. "But I try to learn a new language every year." I'm like, "Oh, why's that?"And he goes, "Well, I just wanna honor the people that come here and not be presumptuous that they will speak the language that I know. I wanna speak in their language." And I'm thinking to myself, I was at Box at the time, I'm like, "This guy is smarter than every person on the executive team, and probably just as smart as every salesperson we have, but he's making $10 a day, and all of us are enjoying this amazing life, and it's because we have access to a platform and he doesn't." So when people start confusing life, thinking that everything that I've earned is because of my amazing abilities, I always kind of que-question that, because there's a lot of luck in this thing. But when luck does present itself, be extremely prepared to capitalize on it, and make sure that you picked the platform that can actually give you that springboard, because platforms really matter. And if we... Like, I had the platform and benefit of America, of education, of, um, of being in, um, in tech, of having great friends and mentors. The-- All of those things created compounding value, right? But you-- we-- I intentionally sought out those platforms. Seek out the platform, be obsessed about being extremely prepared, and don't be intellectually lazy. Uh, laziness is not a good trait. Uh, so do the preparation that's needed. And then, um, you know, just make sure that during that time period that you're doing... If you build a community around you of people that are vested in your success, I think it's just bec- life is just a more fun way to live it, rather than being the lone wolf that's going at it by themselves. And that's why I always feel like making sure that you are expressive and communicative and don't try to carry the entire world's burden on your shoulders, but actually share it with people with you. The people that you share it with actually appreciate that you're sharing it with them, and most people in the world love to help. So ask for the help, but make sure that that help is not transactional, and don't just go to them when you need something. Actually try to add value first for a long enough amount of time, not because at some point you might need something from them. Just hardwire yourself into adding value to others, and then eventually that value starts showing up, and life's just a better... It's just a better way to live life. And I do feel like right now it's hard for kids getting into the workforce and all of that, so don't lose hope and stay persistent and have stamina, because, um, these things go up and down, but if you kinda stick with it, the people that have the most amount of persistence, it's very seldom that they don't end up winning.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky1:10:00

       Well, something that comes to me as you share th-this advice, uh, Arnold Schwarzenegger, uh, has this book that he put out, and I feel like the title of the book is the best piece of advice and the simplest way to describe how to be successful in life, which is Be Useful.

    6. JPJeetu Patel1:10:15

       Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. That is so good.

14. 1:10:21 – 1:19:05

    The six-part framework for building great companies

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:10:21

       Juju, this was incredible. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to share? Anything you wanna leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

    2. JPJeetu Patel1:10:29

       I think there's a framework that I use for great companies that might be worth kinda sharing with people.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:10:34

       Yes. Let's do it.

    4. JPJeetu Patel1:10:34

       There's a six-part framework, um, that I have, which is like, you know, um, in descending order of importance, and, um, on how to build great companies. Uh, this is-

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky1:10:47

       Amazing

    6. JPJeetu Patel1:10:47

       ...you, you get it for free. Um, you, you're [chuckles] you get what you pay for, so, like, take it with a grain of salt, but here's the way I think about it. The most important thing is timing. There's six things you need in a company. If you don't have all these six, you don't win. But they're stack ranked in descending order of importance, but you have to have all six. Number one is timing. It's the most important. It's the thing that you control the least, and there's a lot of companies that have built amazing products, amazing services at the wrong time in the right market and not one, right? And so timing really matters. You don't control timing, but if you don't have timing, you don't win. Number two is the market. You have to be able to go after a large enough market a chunk at a time, and if you don't... If you're not able to go out and prosecute a market a chunk at a time, but make sure that that keeps getting bigger and bigger, uh, it's very hard to win. So market tends to be the second most important thing in my mind after timing. The third one then is team. You know, you have to have the right team, and the team does not mean just people liking each other. Team means that it is actually well-rounded. That means the things that you suck at, someone else is really good at, and you've both accepted that of each other. Like, for example, I have a person that I never go to another job without, and she is my partner in crime, and, um, the reason I have her is because she is so good at things that I'm not good at, you know? And so she's able to... So we-- I... Any job I've taken since I've been working with her, it's always... It's a combined deal. Like, if we don't have two offers, we don't go, right? And so team is really important, a well-rounded team where people understand how to, um, how to complement each other. And by the way, in the team, sometimes people say, "Well, isn't team more important than market?" No. If you have a great market, mediocre team, team-- the market pulls you up. If you have a shitty market and a great team, the market drags you down. The market always wins. So no. Timing, market, team. Number four is product. I think product is the soul of a company. That's the, that's the place where people seek value, is what are you delivering to me? What problem are you solving to me gets manifested through the delivery of a product, so you have to make sure that you build a great product. I actually think it's unethical to have-A mediocre product sold in the market. So timing, market, team, product. Number five is brand. I had a mentor one time, um, that told me, Mark Lewis, he said, "Jeetu, don't ever go to a company, uh, who's lost their brand mojo, 'cause very hard to resurrect it back." If they have lost their product and you can fix the product, but do you think Sybase is coming back? No. Like, you know, once you lose your brand and once you lose the trust, people don't come back to you that much. It's, it's very hard to do. And then number six is distribution. Just because you build it, they will not come. You have to make sure that you figure out a scaled mechanism of getting that, that offering to, uh, to many, many people. And so timing trumps market, market trumps team, team trumps product, product trumps brand, brand trumps distribution. You don't have all six, you don't win.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky1:13:54

       What an amazing nugget to have at the end here. Um, just so I understand how you think about this, is do you... Do you have like a template that you work through when you're thinking about a new business unit or a new product to launch? Is it like, what's... Is timing right? Is market... What market do we start with? How do you actually operationalize this framework?

    8. JPJeetu Patel1:14:09

       That's actually, it's actually exactly like that. Like I, I will ask myself the question on, is this the right time for us to go out and double, triple, quadruple down? Uh, we might still be in experimentation mode, but do I need to double down on this right now because this might not manifest for another seven years, and then we're gonna be too early? And by the way, you have to know the difference between a mega trend and a hype cycle. When there's a mega trend, don't fight, don't fight it, and don't succumb to the temptation of trying to go out and do vanity work for a hype cycle. And there's a big difference between the two. And, and I think having that judgment, the older you get, the better that judgment gets. It's just miles. But having that judgment is really important because you see a pattern recognition at some point.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:00

       I imagine AI mega trend.

    10. JPJeetu Patel1:15:02

        AI is a mega trend, uh, in my mind. Um, and you know, there's a bunch of hype cycles we've had where I don't b- I never particularly subscribe to them, and the easiest way for me to tell is the way it's described. Is it easy to understand what this could do in its ultimate form for most people? Or do, do you need to have a PhD to understand what someone's saying? When you feel like you need a PhD to understand what someone's saying, chances are it, it ain't gonna be a mega trend. Because by definition, a mega trend is it's gonna impact a large population of the world, and if the, if the thing is too complicated, chances are it's not gonna have that level of effect, outsize effect.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky1:15:43

        That's an awesome heuristic. I imagine you're thinking Web3 as a classic example.

    12. JPJeetu Patel1:15:46

        Yes. Web3 was the one that I actually cite all the time. Like this is like I, I couldn't understand what, what it did. And like all these people were kinda like, "Oh, Web3, Web3." I'm like, "I couldn't make a heads or tails out of a use case." But with AI, it's like you go to ChatGPT, you ask it a question, you get an answer. Like, I get this. This is easy, you know?

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky1:16:05

        So going back to your framework just to kind of, uh, close the loop there. It's really interesting that timing is the first variable you look at. This could be an amazing idea. You got the right team, uh, amazing product that works really well, but the timing may just not be right, and no matter how awesome it is, it's not, it's not gonna work.

    14. JPJeetu Patel1:16:21

        Steve Jobs put away the iPad because he thought that the iPhone was a better idea, and timing-wise, he actually made exactly the right call. You know, uh, the iPad became successful because of the iPhone's success. The reverse order might have not had the same effect. But he had to make sure that he focused on one thing, and he actually puts the other... He said, "The timing's not right, but I'm gonna get back to it." So by the way, when timing is wrong, doesn't mean that you scrap the idea. It just means that you might put it on ice for a bit.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky1:16:50

        There's a lot of that happening right now where people tried to do a thing, and now AI actually makes it possible, and now they're like, "Oh, shit."

    16. JPJeetu Patel1:16:57

        Yeah.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky1:16:57

        "I, I... It was way too early."

    18. JPJeetu Patel1:16:58

        And the, the other thing you have to keep in mind is you have to also be good enough to know that when something is gonna be ready in six months, you can't think about where it's g- what it's doing today. Like, AI is moving so fast right now, like one of the things I tell my team is, "Fast-forward six months from now and anticipate what that's gonna do and get prepared for that world. Don't get prepared for the world of today, thinking that you're not gonna be able to get there, because in six months, th- your assumption sets are gonna be different. And please don't actually then bias yourself with the assumption sets you have right now to not move forward." Like, one of the worst things I think companies do sometimes is they put too much emphasis only on ex- solely on experience. And I think experience is good, but experience can actually be meaningfully bad in some areas where you get too biased. And so you almost have to say that I have to l- have the ability to unlearn. And combination of experience with complete ex- inexperience is what creates the magic. 'Cause the inexperience allows you to ask questions that you might have never had with experience, and the combo of those two gives you the best of the pattern recognition plus the charting new territory that's never been kinda walked on before.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky1:18:10

        Yeah. This is a trend I've been hearing on this podcast that people worry about young people and people graduating out of college right now, and jobs and AI, but they're the people that are most open-minded about what AI can do for them and how to harness AI and not code in the way people have always coded. It's just like, "Okay, this is the way it works now."

    20. JPJeetu Patel1:18:29

        Experience, Lenny, can jade us, right? And I always say, when people say, "Oh, um, entry-level people will never be hired again," I'm like, that's the stupidest thing a company can do because now what you've done is you have completely shut the door to new, fresh ideas. Like, I cannot think today the way I thought when I was 19. There is just no way that I can do that. But what I can try to do is I can try to make sure I surround myself for enough amount of my time to get exposed to that thinking and then couple it with what I know and maybe have something better than what either of those two could have had by themselves.

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky1:19:04

        Yes.

    22. JPJeetu Patel1:19:04

        You know?

15. 1:19:05 – 1:27:22

    Lightning round and final thoughts

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:19:06

       Well, with that, Jeetu, we have reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

    2. JPJeetu Patel1:19:11

       All right.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:19:12

       First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

    4. JPJeetu Patel1:19:17

       The bible in tech in my mind is Innovator's Dilemma and Innovative Solutions from Clayton Christensen. I think you, you have to read that book, and I'd, I'd say I'd recommend to people that read it every, every few years. And the other one that I love is, um, Ben Horowitz's book, Hard Thing About Hard Things. Really talks about how you manage your psychology when things get hard. I think those are the ones... I, I, I'm not a big believer that you keep reading, like, thousands of books all the time because I think, like, to me, retention really matters, and my brain's just not that big that I can retain that much. So I tend to distill the essence of a few, few things quite a bit more. And at least as older I've gotten, I've actually used that pattern more.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:00

       Favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed?

    6. JPJeetu Patel1:20:03

       I don't remember the name of it, but the Brad Pitt F1 movie that I, I saw that was pretty cool. Um-

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:09

       The... Wait, it was a recent Brad Pitt movie?

    8. JPJeetu Patel1:20:11

       Yeah. Yeah. The-

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:12

       Was it, um, F1?

    10. JPJeetu Patel1:20:13

        It was-

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:14

        Or was it-

    12. JPJeetu Patel1:20:14

        It was F1, I think

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:15

        ... F1.

    14. JPJeetu Patel1:20:15

        I think it was called F1.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:16

        Yeah.

    16. JPJeetu Patel1:20:16

        But it was pretty cool.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:16

        Yeah.

    18. JPJeetu Patel1:20:17

        Um, I don't know.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:17

        It got nominated for Best Picture.

    20. JPJeetu Patel1:20:19

        Zack Brown is a good friend of mine, and we, we're big supporters of McLaren, and so it was actually pretty cool-

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:24

        Nice

    22. JPJeetu Patel1:20:24

        ... to watch that movie and...

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:26

        Oh, man. I bet. So many stories I haven't tapped into. Okay.

    24. JPJeetu Patel1:20:29

        [laughs]

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky1:20:29

        Uh, favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

    26. JPJeetu Patel1:20:33

        I mean, it's cliche, but I feel like what ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude have done, um, like it's ch- it's changed lives. It's changed my life and the way that I learn in some ridiculous ways. So I, I actually feel like when I got this new job to run all product for Cisco, there's zero chance I would've been able to do it if AI wasn't there. Because I didn't know anything about so many domains that we were in, and I had to get an accelerated, you know, uh, training course within a matter of three months, and, I mean, I worked around the clock during that time, but it would've-- I could've worked around the clock without the tooling, and I would've been nowhere near as effective. So I feel like those three have done an amazing thing. And, and, and Grok even. Like, like, you know, and, um, what you're seeing with Grok tied to Twitter is pretty amazing.

    27. LRLenny Rachitsky1:21:31

        Wow, that's a profound statement. I've never heard that before from someone at your level, that you feel like you wouldn't be able to have done this job without AI.

    28. JPJeetu Patel1:21:39

        Zero chance.

    29. LRLenny Rachitsky1:21:40

        Especially for someone without the background in, in networking and, and hardware and-

    30. JPJeetu Patel1:21:44

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:27:22