An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth)

1. 0:00 – 4:21

   Meltem’s background

   1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz0:00

      Early days, it's very important to just go back to the basics. You know, build the skeleton before you put on the makeup. So the first question I would ask is, do you have a website? Is it fast? Do the search engine know that it exists? Okay, great. The next step would be, can people find it? If they can't find it, you need to write content to make sure that people find it. The ne- Only after all of those questions are answered should you then consider, do I have money? Can I put it behind some paid ads to make sure people come to my website? You know, you can't run a successful paid ads program if you have a website that's loading in four-plus seconds. So really going back to the basics and starting from a good experience at the core, and then expanding step-by-step from there. (instrumental music)

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky0:47

      Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products. Today my guest is Meltem Kuran Berkowicz. Meltem is head of growth at Deel, which is arguably the fastest growing SaaS business of all time, possibly even faster than Ramp, which we delved into in a previous episode. They went from $0 in revenue to a mind-boggling $300 million in revenue in three years, while also staying EBITDA positive. Meltem has led their growth team from the early days, and today leads all their growth efforts, including paid ads, product marketing, content, community, brand, and more. Before joining Deel, she was leading marketing efforts at Branch Accounting. In our conversation, Meltem shares how Deel kickstarted growth through low-cost growth channels, like tapping into communities like Reddit, and also content and SEO. She also talks about how she evolved her thinking on growth investments as the company grew. She shares a bunch of tactical advice for how to do SEO well, how to do paid ads well, and how to structure your early growth team and prioritize your early investments. She also shares her experience building a culture of speed and optimism, and so much more. Enjoy this episode with Meltem Kuran Berkowicz after a short word from our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours. The best way to see what Miro's all about and how it can help your team collaborate better is not to listen to me talk about it, but to go check it out for yourself. Go to miro.com/lenny. With the help of the Miro team, I created a super cool Miro board with two of my own favorite templates, my one-pager template and my managing up template, that you can plug in play and start using immediately with your team. I've also embedded a handful of my favorite templates that other people have published in the Miroverse. When you get to the board, you can also leave suggestions for the podcast, answer a question that I have for you, and generally just play around to get a sense of how it all works. Miro is a killer tool for brainstorming with your team, laying out your strategy, sharing user research findings, capturing ideas, giving feedback on wireframes, and generally just collaborating with your colleagues. I actually used Miro to collaborate with the Miro team on creating my own board, and it was super fun and super easy. Go check it out at miro.com/lenny. That's m-i-r-o dot com slash Lenny. Today's episode is brought to you by LMNT. I just recently discovered this stuff actually from another podcast, and it is such sweet, salty goodness. LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with a science-backed electrolyte ratio. And unlike most electrolyte drinks, there's no sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, gluten, or any other BS. Getting enough electrolytes helps prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and other common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency. LMNT is the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting and many other Olympic athletes. Also, dozens of NBA and NFL teams and players rely on LMNT to stay hydrated, along with Navy SEAL teams, FBI sniper teams, and the Marines. You can try LMNT totally risk-free. If you don't like it, you can share it with a salty friend, and they'll give you your money back, no questions asked. To give it a shot, go to drinklmnt.com/lenny and you'll get a free sample pack with any purchase, which includes one packet of every flavor. My favorite is watermelon salt. You won't find this offer publicly available, so you have to head to drinklmnt.com/lenny to take advantage of this offer. Stay salty.

2. 4:21 – 6:32

   What Deel does

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky4:22

      Meltem, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz4:26

      Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky4:28

      I'm more excited that you're here. So you're head of growth at Deel. For people that aren't familiar with Deel, can you just give us a sense of what does Deel do, briefly? And then also, could you share some stats around the trajectory of Deel? It feels like it's been this extraordinary journey, and I'm curious just to hear some of the stats of just how, how extraordinary.

   4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz4:46

      Yes. So Deel is payroll, HR, and compliance platform for global teams. So essentially, we help companies expand globally with tools like Deel HR, immigration, employer record hiring, independent contractor hiring, payroll, both global and U.S. So whether you're trying to hire someone as a full-time employee in Japan, or you're trying to make sure your contractor in Germany has everything they need on day one, our platform allows you to do, take care of everything all in one place. And when I joined Deel, actually that was around July 2020, we were less than a, you know, million dollars in ARR. And then over time, it grew. We... Within the first year, on January 2021, we were at $4 million ARR. We finished 2021 with 57 million. April 22, '22, we were looking at 100 million, and then we started off this year with $295 million in ARR, and we're... What we're particularly proud of is that we've been EBITDA positive, so that's something that we are very, very proud of on top of the ARR growth.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky5:48

      Amazing. And you said that you were super early at Deel. Can you give us a sense of just how early, and what that was like?

   6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz5:54

      I was second hired to the marketing team. And I was, I believe, either employee ni- 19 or 20 on the overall Deel team.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky6:02

      We had, uh, the head of product from Ramp on this podcast, and it feels like there's this little bit of...... which company grew faster early on, and the trajectory of the two. But we don't have to, we don't have to debate it. It feels like these are, like, maybe the two fastest growing SaaS businesses in history. Does that sound about right?

   8. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz6:16

      That's true, yeah. So Ramp was the first one to be crowned the fastest growing, and then we kind of took that crown from them. So I think we're both right-

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky6:25

      I hope you are.

   10. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz6:25

       ... um, in that, at a certain point in time, we've each been the fastest growing. But, um, they're amazing.

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky6:31

       What I want to start

3. 6:32 – 13:18

   How Meltem leverages low-cost growth channels

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky6:32

      with is something that I heard about you, which is that you specialize in cheaper growth channels. And that's actually the reason Deel ended up hiring you, is they wanted to find ways to grow cheaply. And so a couple questions. One is just what did you find worked really well from that perspective at Deel? And then two, what are today's maybe cheaper growth channels that you think people are underinvesting in? Whatever you're willing to share there. I don't know if you want to give away all your secrets.

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz6:56

      I'm happy to give away all and everything. Um, so I think, you know, before we dive into, like, the list of cheap channels, which I will get to, it's very important to notice, especially in the B2B world, like, most of the businesses are started because there's an active problem. And so when you go out to the market and try to answer people's questions, like, people don't want to be sold to, they want their problem solved. So those cheaper channels are often places where people are just trying to get an answer to their question. So whether that be, you know, search engine optimization through the articles that you write for people, looking onto Reddit where people are asking these questions in communities, forming partnerships with other groups that are trying to answer these questions, existing communities where, you know, other business leaders are connecting with each other and looking at their peers to kind of find answers to shared problems that they're having, or places like Quora. That's... When you think about cheap channels, that's a really good place to start, is, like, just add value to people, answer their questions. And when you answer their questions and present your solution, if it's a fit to what they're looking for, that ends up being a cheap channel for you. You don't necessarily have to advertise. You know, when you go to Reddit and you set up those keywords to be tracking when people ask certain questions, you're not paying any money to do that. You're just seeing, "Oh, someone has this question. I have the answer to that. Here you go." And connecting with them. It takes time. Um, but early on, those were a lot of the things that we invested in. And I think a lot of people kind of jumped that, because they think, "Oh, it's one p- person here, two people there," but when you start helping people, that combined with word of mouth... And guess what, these are digital places, you provide one answer, and your answer lives out there for other people to repeatedly refine, as long as it's we're not talking about a closed Slack community, maybe a conversation happening in DMs. So when I think about cheap channels, I think about, where are people asking the questions, that might be Google, or that might be Reddit or any other channel, and providing them the answers so they know that your solution exists.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky8:59

      Okay, this is awesome. So this Reddit example, is that what you actually did, you set alerts for when people have questions about HR or hiring internationally, I imagine, and then had someone go in there and give them some advice?

   4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz9:10

      Yes, exactly that's what we did.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky9:12

      Wow, I love that.

   6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz9:12

      It's important to notice that, you know, if you're looking at a sub-Reddit of about 1,000 people, you know, recognize the upper size of this audience. You know, it's not- you're not going to win 5,000 businesses through that Reddit community, but you're maybe going to win 10% of the people there that are having this problem. So, it's very important when investing in these cheap channels to focus on, you know, what's the upper limit of the audience size? And also, I see a lot of people sometimes go blindly into SEO. They're like, "We're just gonna write content." Which, I'm a huge fan of SEO, happy to discuss that later, but if people aren't asking this question to Google, you can a- write all the content you want, it doesn't matter, nobody's going to find it.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky9:52

      I love this so much, because it connects with something I find again and again is, one of the more effective early growth channels is tapping into an existing community and kind of piggybacking off of what they've already built. Airbnb is a little bit of an example where they went- kind of went to Craigslist. Well, actually, most people pull people off Craigslist. Uber pulled people off Craigslist, Lyft. So many companies just, like, piggybacked off Craigslist and built up their own company. But what you said is so important, which is, you can't just go into a community and be like, "Hey, everyone, check out what I've got." You need to add value to people.

   8. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz10:20

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky10:20

      And add value to the community, otherwise, no one's gonna pay attention to you, they're gonna kick you out.

   10. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz10:25

       Exactly.

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky10:25

       And so I think that is a really important insight, is if you're trying to, say, piggyback off of a community, it's- the most important thing is you need to add value to the community.

   12. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz10:34

       Yeah. Be someone people actually want to talk to.

   13. LRLenny Rachitsky10:37

       I love that. Is there a tool that you've found for that Reddit, uh, strategy, of just how to know if someone's talking about hiring, say, internationally?

   14. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz10:45

       I did a very janky If This Then That setup. I'm not proud of it, but it works. (laughs) So... Someone else out there built it, and I just plugged in the keywords we were looking for into it.

   15. LRLenny Rachitsky10:57

       I know it wasn't just Reddit, and I'm curious what else you found was worth your time, but how did you figure out that's where your potential community and potential users were spending time?

   16. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz11:06

       Well, I think over time, you know, Reddit became the place that you go to when you want peer answers, whether that peer is someone right next to you or someone halfway across the world. So it was a very obvious place for me to go to understand, you know, what's top of mind for my audience? But also, you know, there were so many sub-Reddits, I- whether it's founders or HR managers, that people are just asking their community, because oftentimes they have very specific questions. You can't just ask that to Google, because they have one thing that means that they might not be able to qualify for the exact solution that is what's most used out there. So Reddit just became the place over the years for people to ask their specific questions semi-anonymously and pro- get answers from their community, and, you know, multiple answers to be able to judge which works better versus didn't. So it was just, it was one of the first places that myself and my team went to.

   17. LRLenny Rachitsky11:57

       And is this something that worked really well mostly at the beginning to kind of kickstart growth, or how early was this? And then how much of your growth would you say came from this sort of strategy early on?

   18. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz12:07

       I believe I set up that little, kind of, keyword tracking within the first day of me being, you know, starting my role at Deel. So it was very, very early. And it's, we still do this, by the way, we still, you know, provide answers across Reddit, Quora, communities. Like, we're still out there connecting with people. Over time, of course, you know, it went from maybe being 15% of our funnel to, you know, less than 5% of our funnel, because the rest of our funnel has grown a lot. But the net number of people that we get to kind of share our solution with, through those channels have continued to grow over time.

   19. LRLenny Rachitsky12:43

       Coming back to something I asked that I want to touch on is, in today's world, are there any cheaper growth channels that you are excited about? Or is it essentially the same idea, look for where your potential users are, and ideally asking questions that you could help answer? Is that, is that roughly how you think about it still?

   20. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz12:58

       That is still roughly how I think about it. I would add, you know, social channels to that as well. I think, you know, Twitter's a great place, people ask questions oftentimes to their communities. And, you know, when someone has answered that question, other people kind of piggyback off of that. But anywhere where someone is asking a question, I would consider to fall into this category of a cheap channel.

   21. LRLenny Rachitsky13:17

       What's an example

4. 13:18 – 14:52

   How to answer questions in a value-add way

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky13:18

      of answering a question in a value-add way, versus a maybe less effective way, in your experience?

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz13:24

      I always say the least effective way would be, "Hey, we've solved that problem. Check out our website." Like, okay, cool, like if you have five seconds, do that. But the value-add way would be explaining what the solution to that problem is, because the reality is, there are a lot of people out there who can probably solve this, and then providing your solution. But like answer their question first, and then let them decide if they want to come with you or go with someone else. But the whole point of someone asking a question isn't to be sold a solution, it's like, "I just need an answer." So like genuinely treat this person like a friend of yours, answer their question, be like, "Yes, it's doable. No, it's not doable. Yes, you can do it, but you need to consider X, Y, Z. If you want to learn more about it, you can chat with us."

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky14:04

      And these were people on the team, or you answering these questions? It wasn't like some automated system?

   4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz14:09

      It was never automated. It still isn't today. We would never automate our interactions with people. So, it wa- early days, it was myself, the other people on my team, our co-founders, which to this day they still do, by the way. Um, so it's a lot of people on the team, you know, every single person on the team kind of has access to these. And whoever is the first person to jump in will kind of flag it and, you know, sometimes you'll see on, on the Twitter, someone will write a question, there's like three people from Deel team has answered. (laughs) And we're like, "Okay. I think enough of us have provided, uh, you know, value here."

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky14:41

      That's amazing. I know I'm spending a lot of time on this, but this is such an interesting and important tactic that clearly worked to help you all start, and it's cheap, and most, at least B2B companies, could probably leverage this.

5. 14:52 – 15:48

   Leveraging closed communities

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky14:52

      So when people are thinking about where to go, maybe do this. You mentioned-

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz14:55

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky14:55

      ... Twitter, maybe Reddit, maybe Quora. Is there anything else in just like the sphere of potential places founders can go think about, whether maybe people are asking questions they could answer there?

   4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz15:06

      Yeah. There are a lot of closed communities. So there're still, you know, they could be Slack communities, Discord, places that, you know, founders choose to connect with other founders. Or we have partnerships with places like the Y Combinator, where, you know, once you go through a certain program or you qualify to be in the club, whatever that club may be, you get to kind of get access to this community where you can talk to other people. So, those are considered closed communities. It's not as easy to gain access to. But if you can find a way to gain access to those communities, they're also great places to be.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky15:37

      And then step number one is add value, right?

   6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz15:40

      Yes.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky15:40

      Not just get in the community, "Hey, check out Deel, everyone."

   8. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz15:42

      Otherwise you'll just get kicked out, like, you can try not adding value, you're not gonna last very long.

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky15:47

      Yeah.

6. 15:48 – 16:33

   Breaking down Deel’s impressive growth

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky15:48

      If you think about the pie chart of how growth happened at Deel early on, and then today, what would that roughly look like? Like, what percentage of early growth came through this versus SEO or whatever else worked, and then today, whatever you can share of where growth comes from?

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz16:02

      Yeah. Today, roughly about, I would say, 50% of growth continues to come from what we would consider, you know, non-paid channels, through, you know, whether it be partnerships, SEO, these kinds of moderations. So early on, that was more close to, you know, 80 to 90%. But that number has grown, like, again, the net number has grown, but the percentage of the overall value has shrunk, because other channels have also grown significantly.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky16:29

      Awesome. Okay. So let's talk about SEO. First of

7. 16:33 – 18:32

   SEO best practices

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky16:33

      all, how important has that been to the success and growth of Deel, and then also just what have you learned about what is important to get SEO right?

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz16:40

      Yeah. So I would say for SEO, the biggest mistake people make is they will just shove keywords. They're like, "Okay, these are the keywords people are searching for. I need to make sure I mention it five times." Like, obviously do that, like make sure that the content that you wrote answers the question. But the main thing to think about it is, you know, is the Google search over? Like, if someone reads your content, if they typed in something to Google, and then they read the article that you've published, are they going back to Google to continue reading more? Or is the Google search over? Because ultimately that's what the search engines care about is, "I wanna make sure this person gets their answer quickest way possible." So when you think from that perspective, it's much easier to actually write things that people want to read and you're not just like meandering and going on and on, shoving a bunch of keywords that people are just like, "I'm bored, I'm bouncing, I'm going somewhere else." So asking that question of, "Is the search over?" is a really good place to start instead of just shoving keywords. And, you know, our content team is amazing. I would say they're more of an operational team than they are a creative team. The way they run things, the way they, you know, publish the articles, you know, there's a very clear framework that is used to decide what gets published when and what doesn't get published, by the same token. So all of those things are very important to consider instead of just being like, "Oh, this keyword has, you know, 10,000 monthly visitors. I'm just going to write a bunch of things about that."

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky18:02

      What's an example of a page that you wrote that ends people's search and gives them what they need?

   4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz18:06

      A lot of people wonder what, what an EOR is, because that's an employer of record. They tend to be confused about exactly what that is. So we do very well in explaining to people what EOR is and isn't, and what its limitations are. Because the first question, you know, that you will have after the EOR question's answered is, "Okay, what's the downside?"... when do I need to not use it? So that, for us, that does v-, that's one of the content pieces that does very well.

8. 18:32 – 20:03

   Deel’s “traffic light system” framework for publishing content

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky18:32

      I'd love to spend more time on this operational element of the SEO team. Maybe one question is just, what is that bar that tells you that it's ready to publish and worth going out, versus it's not ready?

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz18:42

      Yes. So I can't take credit to this, this is all of our team's work. But we have this framework that we call the traffic light, light system. Essentially, we go or whenever the team is going to do, you know, a content, um, series, they will go and w-, find up to 700 keywords. These are keywords that are related to what we do. So they might be closely related, they might be distant related. And then those set of keywords get ranked by highest volume to the lowest volume. So then you have an Excel sheet, keywords on the left, volume on the right. And then you go one by one, this does take time, and then say, "What is the intent of someone searching this keyword?" Is this a university student looking to write an article and they're never going to become our customer? Or is this someone that is actually looking to solve their existing solution and they are going to become our customer? So with that, you know, you get the green light ones, which is the intent is very high. This person wants our solution. The yellow light is intent could be there, 50/50. You know, maybe they're looking to buy our solution. Maybe it's not soon enough. And then the red is this person is not looking to buy our solution, they're just doing this search for any other reason. So when you do that, then you go from the greens, highest volume to the lowest volume, yellows, highest volume to the lowest volume. And oftentimes you never get to the reds.

9. 20:03 – 21:55

   The step-by-step process of publishing an SEO article

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky20:03

      I love that. And then once you have, say, a keyword, say green, I guess it's a green keyword where it's high intent and high volume, what is the process to actually put together an article that works for SEO?

   2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz20:16

      So step one is understanding the search intent. Why is someone typing that? Like, what are they trying to understand? You know, and a part of that is going to Google and figuring out what is Google service, servicing today. So one of, you know, the examples that I always give people of when you type EOR to Google, it doesn't give you employer of record. It gives you enhanced oil recovery because-

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky20:38

      (laughs)

   4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz20:38

      ... most of the people typing EOR to Google is looking for that solution. (laughs) Now, if my team blindly went in and said, "We're going to rank for EOR," we're never gonna rank for that, because that's not what Google gives people, because that's not what people have been looking for. So first is understanding what are people looking for and creating a content piece that answers those questions. Oftentimes, the bottom part of Google, you know, where it says just, like, the next questions that you should be asking is a really good place to go-

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky21:05

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz21:05

      ... to understand, okay, after someone's done with this search, what's the next que- question that they ask, and the next one, and the next one? So figuring out what do people want to get out of this, and then there are a myriad of, you know, SEO solutions, tools that you can use out there to ensure that the content you've written is in a simple enough language that someone, you know, with a fifth grade reading level can understand. That you actually did the right things, you know, you put the right keywords in the right places. I almost think of keywords as like that's your address, like that's how you give pe- give Google, like, "Please send people my way." So you, you know, you can use many tools. We use Clearscope, we love it. So those are the tools that you use, and then it gets published, and oftentimes those tools will give you a score to say, "You're an A plus," or, "You're a C minus, you need to make your language less sophisticated." Currently it's at university level and we need it to be at fourth grade reading level.

10. 21:55 – 23:18

    How Deel structures their content team

    1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz21:55

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky21:55

       What is the structure of the content team at this point? Like, how many people is it and what are their rough focuses?

    3. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz22:00

       Fun fact about our content team, the person that leads it was one of the earliest employees at Deel. I wanna say number two or three.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky22:07

       Wow.

    5. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz22:07

       So the person there is just so special to our entire company. And so the structure of the content team for us is, it is led by our director of content. We have one person that is in charge of all of the operations, so that is working with our freelancers, making sure that the briefs are sent out, making sure that the fact-checking is done on time, that the articles are published on the website, and tracking and everything that, they kind of run the machinery on the back end. And then we have, you know, different people focused on different areas of content, because you need to have expertise that you build over time to write properly. So we have one person, you know, looking after certain product lines, another person would be focusing on behind different product lines. And very recently, we've set out a team for different types of content, because content isn't just written article, it's also video, it's also education. There's a lot of different types of content that we want to tap into. So now there's a team that is focused on those new mediums for us.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky23:04

       Awesome. So how many people total, uh, full time that run this operation?

    7. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz23:08

       Right now the team is about eight people total.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky23:11

       And it's, like, I don't know if it's exactly 50% but se- something like half of your growth essentially is coming from this team?

    9. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz23:17

       Yes.

11. 23:18 – 25:15

    Why you can’t cut corners when doing SEO

    1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz23:18

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky23:18

       Is there anything else you found that's really important or effective for thinking about making SEO work?

    3. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz23:23

       The biggest mistake people make is SEO is one of those things that you can try and automate it. Like, you can do a lot of things that save you time, but it never stops being time-consuming. And to do it well, i- is going to be time-consuming. So oftentimes people just get over it, or they think it's below them to, you know, be go- going over and doing keyword research and doing all of those things one by one, and that's oftentimes where people lose out is they try to cut corners. And when you cut corners, you just don't create a good quality resource. Like, that's what it comes down to is, like, is your resource good quality? Yes or no? So when you try to just be, like, "I want to rank," and cut all those corners, your content is not gonna be great, nobody's gonna want to read it and your program is not going to go anywhere. So I think it's one of those things that people, as they become more senior, think it's below them, and I think that's the biggest mistake.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky24:11

       It's interesting how that's exactly the same advice for writing a newsletter, like the thing I do, where if a newsletter isn't working, it usually means the content isn't valuable enough to people.

    5. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz24:19

       Yes.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky24:19

       It's su- such a clear meritocracy of if it's useful people will read it, subscribe, share, and if they're not, they won't subscribe. And then Google basically figures that out based on people's behavior.

    7. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz24:30

       Yes, exactly.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky24:31

       To give people a sense of the operation, how many...... articles are you putting out a month, a day, a week. Whatever you can share there.

    9. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz24:38

       We used to put out about 10 articles a week, that's net new. Whereas now we have doing more of five new articles and five article updates, because the type of content we write, regulations change, things change all the time. So we need to make sure that even if something was published two years ago, it's up-to-date. So we have a team that is, you know, responsible for kind of continuously fact-checking. So we do about five article updates and five net new articles written. And, of course, we do it across many different languages. So what started off as English-only operations is now in other languages as well. So there's no shortage of work to go around.

12. 25:15 – 26:40

    Businesses that should not invest in SEO

    1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz25:15

       (laughs)

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky25:15

       Something that I go back and forth on a bit is if SEO is something every company should be doing and will work for them. And in my experience, there's certain products that are really good for SEO, especially if there's user-generated content or there's just like a bunch of data, like you say, Yelp or Glassdoor where they can generate tons of pages in all these different ways. Do you have an opinion on what sort of business and company is best suited for SEO? Or is your feeling like everyone should probably be doing SEO in some form, and even if it's not a huge part of your growth strategy, it'll help?

    3. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz25:48

       I don't think everybody should be doing SEO. I think if you are in a space where people are looking for a solution, you should be doing SEO. But if you are a direct to consumer company selling people lipstick, which I'm a huge buyer of, you probably shouldn't invest in SEO all that much because people don't go to Google for that. They go to Instagram, they go to influencers. And even if someone types in, "The best lipstick of 2023," chances of your website ranking, because you're not a third-party objective comparing to other people, is very low. So really depends on the solution, but if you are in a space, which most B2B products tend to be, that you're solving an active problem very specifically, then I would say SEO's a good idea. If you're a consumer good, maybe a little bit less, uh, you know, effort should be put towards it.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky26:39

       Makes a lot

13. 26:40 – 32:12

    The growth channels Deel prioritized early on

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky26:40

       of sense. Going back to the early days. You're hired as head of growth at Deel. There's a lot of things you could do. I'm curious how you decided where to prioritize your resources and what to do in the early days, versus what you started doing down the road and what you could almost, like, not worry about early on. What have you learned about that early prioritization ex- exercise?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz26:59

       Yes. So I would say early days, it's very important to just go back to the basics. You know, build the skeleton before you put on the makeup. So the first question I would ask is, do you have a website? Is it fast? Do the search engine knows that it, that it exists? Okay, great. The next step would be, can people find it? If they can't find it, do you need to write content to make sure that people find it? The ne- Only after all of those questions are answered should you then consider, do I have money? Can I put it behind some paid ads to make sure people come to my website? So, like, going step by step, but, you know, you can't run a successful paid ads program if you have a website that's loading in four-plus seconds. So really going back to the basics and starting from a good experience at the core, and then expanding step by step from there is how I would suggest everybody starts. And that's what I would do if I was to get hired all over again.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky27:54

       I love that. So what are some of those steps? So step one is, do you have a website? Step two is make sure the website performs and people can actually have a good time when they're experiencing it. I imagine part of it is also, do people understand what you do? Like, tweaking maybe the pitch and the-

    4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz28:07

       Yes, exactly. And speaking of the pitch, our copy team does an amazing, you know, job at this. In the B2B world, it's very easy to come up with statements-

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky28:16

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz28:16

       ... that could so easily be applied to another business and it would work just as well on their website. And it sounds good, and, you know, you, you and your team feel really good about it. But then, if your one-liner can also work for another business, please don't let that be our one-liner. Like, m- make it so that people actually understand what you do. Because right now, there's a lot of, you know, statements out there, like, "We do the complex things so you can focus on what you do best." Like, what does that mean?

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky28:44

       (laughs)

    8. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz28:44

       You can give that to 90% of the B2B businesses out there and it would apply to them, which means it's not good enough.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky28:49

       Is there anything that you remember you changed in those early days, in terms of the website, or the positioning, or anything along those lines that was a big improvement?

    10. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz28:57

        Our website was hardcoded, so the first (laughs) thing we did with the help of the, you know, dev team was to move it to a platform that it was easy for me to access and edit, so that we could continuously A/B test things. And outside of that, we worked really hard on testing a lot of, you know, value propositions to explain to people exactly what we do, explain, you know, problem first, solution first, and time savings, cost savings, you know, putting a, a lot of those against each other and rapidly A/B testing.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky29:24

        Once you got past that phase, or maybe you started doing some paid ads and other things, where did you find you could invest more resources?

    12. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz29:32

        Once we covered the basics of, you know, your big four or five ad platforms, we started looking into the long tail places. So those are the platforms that individually never contribute a significant enough chunk for you to individually care about it. But if you add them up, it diversifies your lead flow, such that it kind of ends up being about 30% of your overall kind of lead flow that's coming in. So those could be things like review sites, you know, or some much smaller outlets that could also run ads, newsletter ads, podcast ads, all of those things, you know. When you run an individual podcast ad, yeah, you're probably not gonna get 2,000 customers from one podcast. But you run 10 of those and then you, it starts adding up. So really, long tail is where we focused on. And we started going very niche with websites that have, you know, maybe 50,000, 100,000 visitors a month, which isn't all that much when you're thinking about your paid ad strategy. But all of those places add up, and they're oftentimes overlooked.... because they're not as easy. You have to take the time to set up from scratch, to run it on everything. You know, our paid ads team, they spend just as much time running Facebook and Google Ads as they do running those third-party, much smaller platform ads. It takes the same effort, but you need to have a diversified, um, you know, source of your leads.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky30:54

        Huge fan of podcast ads over here.

    14. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz30:56

        (laughs) Yes.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky30:56

        And maybe this will be a good time to cue the mid-roll ad, maybe. I don't know. It could happen.

    16. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz30:59

        Well, sounds perfect.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky31:01

        Here we go. Today's episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI. If you're looking to build AI-powered features in your audio and video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to transcribe and understand speech at scale. What I love about AssemblyAI is you can use their simple API to access the latest AI breakthroughs from top-tier research labs. Product teams at startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics in podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken, and lots more. All of AssemblyAI's models which are accessed through their API are production ready. So many PMs I know are considering or already building with AI, and AssemblyAI is the fastest way to build with AI for audio use cases. Now is the time to check out AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to bring the highest accuracy transcription, plus valuable insights to your customers, just like Spotify, CallRail, and Writer do for theirs. Visit assemblyai.com/lenny to try their API for free and start testing their models with their no-code playground. That's assemblyai.com/lenny.

14. 32:12 – 33:54

    Why Meltem is not a fan of early awareness campaigns for B2B businesses

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky32:12

       And welcome back. Speaking of podcast ads, something that I find is, with that sort of advertising, there's a direct response component of like, we will drive leads as running an ad like this, and there's also awareness brand building component. I know you're not a big fan of awareness campaigns and marketing campaigns, especially early on. And so I'd love to get your perspective on why that is and wh- how you think about that sort of investment.

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz32:36

       I'm not a huge fan of early awareness campaigns for B2B businesses specifically. So if you are a consumer goods founder, you can, you know, skip this part. But the reason I don't like awareness early on is because to do a proper awareness campaign, it takes time. You need to have, you know, teams that are doing the strategy, doing the creative work, and they don't always hit. You don't know if they're always going to resonate or not. And then you look back, and you've worked on this thing for a whole month, and it hasn't resonated, and you've wasted a full month. So because B2B businesses uniquely are started because there's a very real need, and there's a lot of people that are ready to convert, like first tap into the bottom of the funnel, and then go out and start speaking to the masses. But I promise you, it'll probably take you six to eight months minimum to tap into that bottom of the funnel of people that are ready to convert today before you have to start doing awareness ads out there. Now, that's not to say never do awareness ads, but it's oftentimes the shiny, cool thing that you want to do, and it just ends up being a waste of time early on, because people don't really even understand what you're doing. You haven't really even figured out what's the messaging that resonates, but you've done this creative campaign, and people are like, "This looks cool, but I'm just gonna go ahead and continue looking for a solution for my problem."

15. 33:54 – 36:16

    What Notion did right with their ad campaigns

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky33:54

       Is there an example of a marketing campaign or an awareness campaign that comes to mind that you thought was like, okay, this is... if you do it this way, maybe, maybe it's worth doing?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz34:01

       I've seen Notion do a great job with their out-of-home ads. They didn't do it early on. They started doing it much later in their journey, by the time when everybody that was working in tech kind of knew what it was, and it was really to kind of drive home the message continuously rather than to introduce themselves to the world. So, by then, when you saw that layout on a billboard, it made sense. You're like, "Oh, I know what they're talking about."

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky34:23

       So what is it about Notion that you think was great? It was timing, and then also the actual ad itself you're- you thought was great?

    4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz34:30

       Yeah. The ads that I'm recalling right now were showcasing their product interface, so they needed enough time. And this is my... o- o- obviously a hypothesis. If someone from Notion wants to jump in and say, "That wasn't the reason why we did this," go ahead. But I think they needed enough time for people to get familiar with the interface, because Notion has a very specific interface that when you see it, you recognize it. It's not like any other product. So, unless people built that awareness and recognition, doing an out-of-home ad with that layout wouldn't have made much sense, because just with that layout, they were able to communicate what product they're talking about. If they did that day one, people would be like, "What is this thing that I'm looking at?"

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky35:07

       So we've been working kind of through all the ways that Deel has grown. We've talked about SEO, community. You mentioned partnerships. Is there anything interesting there to mention around just like what partnerships have done?

    6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz35:18

       Yeah. I would say it's very important to know who you should partner with. So there's two groups of partners. Like people oftentimes end up partnering with any company that has a shared audience. Decent place to start, but be- just because you share an audience doesn't mean your audience goes to your partner for guidance when they have this problem. So, you know, in our case, venture capital partners was a huge one, because when you get money from a new VC, they ask. They're like, "Okay, thank you for giving us this money. Now, we wanna expand our team with the money you gave us. What are your other portfolio companies using? What is a platform that you trust that you would recommend?" So, people go to their VCs with that kind of question. But there might be another tech company out there that is tapping into the exact audience that we are, but people never go to them to ask that question. So our partnership with them will likely not work just as well. So it's important to not only recognize the importance of like an audience overlap, as well as whether or not those people are seen as a trusted resource for the solution you are putting out there.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky36:15

       I really love

16. 36:16 – 38:15

    How Deel can help your company

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky36:16

       this idea you keep coming back to, which is where are people asking this question that you can help them answer? And to make that even more concrete for people, what are some other examples maybe of questions people ask that Deel can help them with so that it could help people think about, okay, maybe our product can help them answer these other sorts of questions?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz36:35

       ... since the early days, and it continues to happen, compliance is a huge question that gets asked. So when you are an HR leader or a finance leader or a legal leader in a company that works, let's say, in America, but you want to hire someone in another country, you don't know what you don't know. So it's very important to have people that know what they're talking about in context of your country of origin as well as the country that you're trying to hire from. So compliance is always a huge part of, kind of ... Has been a huge part of what we do and what we've always answered for people. That's why we have in-house experts that answer those questions, that constantly provide updates if the answer to that question has changed over time, which regulations constantly change. You know, an answer we provided a week ago may change, and you need to be very proactive in communicating that. Taxes is another one, especially in the space that we're in, you know, payroll, hiring. Taxes change from country to country. You know, you need to know where you need to what, pay what taxes, when you need to not pay them, and what types of work people do. So those are some of the kind of types of questions that get asked. So for us, they are very nitty-gritty and use case-specific. You know, if you ... The taxes you need to pay for someone who is an engineer as a full-time employee might be very different than who is a designer who is a contractor. Um, so you ... Those are the kinds of specifics that we get into with people.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky37:50

       Got it. So it's like, "How do I pay taxes for an engineer I'm hiring in Turkey?" And then you give them, "Here's the answer," and then it's like, "Oh, if you just want us to take care of it for you, go check out Deel."

    4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz37:59

       Exactly. Like, rarely the question is, "What's the best payroll solution?" It's like, okay, that, that's good to make sure what you're leaning towards isn't shit, and that other people agree with you. But ultimately it's like, you need the best payroll solution because you need to make sure that things aren't gonna go wrong.

17. 38:15 – 40:06

    Deel’s blog post that caught the attention of the IRS

    1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz38:15

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky38:15

       Speaking of answering questions and content, something that you told me is that you wrote a blog post that the IRS ended up linking to as the definitive answer to a question. And I don't think this was at Deel, but can you share that story?

    3. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz38:29

       Yes. Actually, it was at my previous role. And the person who wrote that article is today at Deel. Um-

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky38:36

       (laughs) Nice.

    5. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz38:37

       ... (laughs) so he, he came over to join us there too. But yes. It was right around when COVID happened and the US government rolled out the PPP program. And there was a lot of questions about, do I qualify? If I qualify, how do I apply for this? And at the time, company that I was working for had a lot of customers that were like, "What do I do? Like, I need to gain access to this, but I don't know what to do." So the team there took the time to truly understand how the system works, whether you qualify, what to do, and kind of created this resource for our own customers, because we just wanted to help them, and then it ended up being such a good (laughs) resource that it was linked from the IRS's website being like, "If you have questions, (laughs) check out this article." Which was a great moment of pride, and it just kind of went to show that when you do your best to answer questions and other people don't have the time to do it, no matter who it is, they're going to kind of send people back your way. And it was, at the time, you know, it happened to be a big moment of growth. It was a very unfortunate instance. You know, we wish we never had to write that, that it never happened. But yeah, that was kind of the story around IRS linking to the company's-

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky39:44

       That's amazing.

    7. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz39:44

       ... resource.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky39:44

       That's the ultimate sign of the question is answered, uh, and you're done with it, if the IRS decides to link to it.

    9. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz39:49

       Yes.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky39:49

        So you're saying that was actually a, a big driver of growth, the IRS traffic? I'm curious how many people actually go read that.

    11. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz39:55

        So that was huge for that short duration of a few week time-

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky39:59

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz39:59

        ... when-

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky39:59

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz39:59

        ... people were trying to apply for PPP.

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky40:02

        Yeah, amazing.

    17. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz40:02

        Um, and then it died out, as did PPP.

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky40:05

        Makes

18. 40:06 – 42:12

    Paid ads tips

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky40:06

       sense. One last question, uh, around paid, and then I want to move on to a different topic. Is there anything you've learned about what it takes to be successful at paid growth from your experience at Deel?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz40:16

       Yeah. So a few things. Our paid team spends a lot of time on both the messaging aspect of things as well as the optimization. So optimization is, you know, the technical way in which you set your bids, make sure that you don't go over-budgets, whether or not you can afford that. And then messaging is making sure that if someone sees your ad, whether it's on Instagram, Twitter, Google, that it makes sense for them. So creative fatigue is a real thing. You know, when you put an ad out there that works for three weeks, people get tired of seeing that. You need to constantly update that. So our paid team is actually updating the ads we put out there on a monthly basis, with the exception of a few Google Ads, which need to be straight to the point. So get, staying ahead of creative fatigue, making sure that your messaging also keeps up with your product. Even if the ad is working really well, you need to make sure that, you know, as your product has evolved, so has the messaging alongside that. And also recognizing, you know, not just looking at the amount of leads that you generated from a campaign, but how many of them actually became a client, and how much money did you actually make from those clients, to understand things around, you know, payback. Because oftentimes marketers just tend to think about, "Oh, this is a great lead channel, and I get so many leads from it." But then you ask that question to sales teams, and they're like, "Yeah, I'm busy, but none of these are converting." So it's really important to look at not just the volume that you bring in, but what is the journey of that volume with your business, you know, one year out? How much money do you actually make from them to be able to properly, uh, decide, "How much can I spend to win this customer?" And the way that we've done it is we've worked with our data team to set up a dashboard that tracks that in real time. We know an average customer that comes from a Facebook ad, uh, what rate do they convert from a lead to a qualified opportunity to a closed one, and then a- on average, how much money do we make from that customer one year out? So that we can decide, is this a worthy channel for us? Do we not want to invest there? Or are we kind of reaching that peak and w- we can't continue to invest there?

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky42:11

       Something

19. 42:12 – 44:19

    Why acquisition channels are useless without a great product

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky42:12

       that I should mention as we talk through this is we're talking about all these ways to grow the product, but at the core is a great product that people actually find valuable and want to keep using. And maybe a question there is just how, how that plays into this whole growth strategy, like actually making the product something people want, versus all these acquisition channels?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz42:29

       Acquisition channels just straight up don't work if you have a product that doesn't live up to the expectation. I think I personally have been very spoiled and lucky, because from the day I joined Deel, the product was top-notch. You know, I...... as I was joining an early-stage company, I joined right after series A, I was kind of expecting certain things to be duct-taped in the back. It happens. And I was like, "Oh, no," like, the engineers and the product team are, if they say a product can do something, it can do that and more. So early days of my team pitching Deel was, people were like, "I don't think you guys can do all of that. I don't believe you." And it was almost like we had to tamper down our messaging so that people would believe us. But, you know, You can, you can be the best marketer in the world. If when people come to your product, even if your sales team does a good job at convincing them to become a customer, 'cause you can do that, if the product doesn't live up to the expectations, especially in the B2B world where people aren't going to put up with crappy products, they're gonna leave. That's going to get out, and people are going to know it's not a worthy product. So like that really sits at the core of everything that we do. I think it's very easy to take it for granted when you're at a company that has an awesome product, you're like, "It is like this all the time." But, you know, one of the things I would encourage anybody looking to join a young company is ask them what their team breakdown looks like. When I joined Deel, most of the team was product and engineers. So that told me that the core of this business is going to be solid. And then we built out those supporting things, like marketing, like sales, like data to surround the product. But if you're t- talking to an early-stage company that's a B2B product and they have six salespeople and two engineers, uh, their product probably isn't going to be great for that much longer.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky44:12

       Yeah. Especially if it's like an outsourced, you know, dev shop-

    4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz44:15

       Yes.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky44:15

       ... building the product, and they're like, "Oh, they'll take care of the product. We'll, we'll just sell it."

    6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz44:18

       Yes.

20. 44:19 – 47:11

    How the pandemic helped drive growth at Deel

    1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz44:19

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky44:19

       Something else that I think is important to talk about is COVID was an important element of your growth, and so I guess, one, is, is that true? And then, two, just what did you lean into and lean out of in terms of growth during COVID to kind of help people discover Deel when they needed it most, which was basically people going remote in a lot of ways-

    3. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz44:38

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky44:38

       ... in a lot of companies?

    5. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz44:39

       Yeah, so COVID actually, a lot of people think Deel was started as a response to the pandemic. We actually got started before the pandemic, and then the pandemic happened. So as kind of sad as it was, it did force people into like a pilot program of the vision that we had for the world. It forced people to work remotely, whether that means you're working remotely from someone who lives a block away from you, or you are working remotely from someone in Germany. So, we did benefit from the fact that everybody was at least forced to test out this hypothesis of does it work to not be in the same room as the people that you're working with? And one of the questions that we were getting early on as the COVID was coming to an end was, are you worried COVID is coming to an end that people aren't going to use Deel anymore? And th- our response to that has always been, we are not a remote work platform. We're a global work platform. So, a lot of these businesses have gone back into offices. We have a lot of customers that ask people to go back to their offices, but now they have offi- have offices in Germany and in Canada and in the US and in France. So we were never a remote work company. We were just a global work company, and remote work kind of, because there was a lot of news coverage happening around it, we just became synonymous with that. So I do think early on, we did benefit from, you know, being able to provide that solution, and a lot of people saw the reality of like, "Hey, I work just as well with this person as I did when I was in an office with them. Well, the best person that I'm looking for the job may not be within my, you know, region, so let me go ahead and hire them regardless of where they are." People got comfortable with that, and more and more companies kinda started moving in that direction.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky46:20

       And is there anything that ended up being really important in terms of helping c- Deel grow through that, like a channel that's just like, "Let's go big on this channel 'cause it seems to be working really well"? Or is it just word of mouth basically, and people are just like, "Oh, shit. I really need to solve this problem. My hair's on fire. What's out there? Let me go find, find an answer"?

    7. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz46:36

       I wouldn't say it was word of mouth. Like, maybe very, very early on it was word of mouth, but within the first few months of our operation, that kind of stopped being true, or at least the word of mou- mouth stopped being a smaller percentage of the way in which people discover us. But it's always that, you know, people needed a payroll solution. They needed a way to hire independent contractors overseas, and we just were the answer to that. So we consistently put ourselves in front of them and said, "Hey, if you're trying to do this, or if you're already doing it and you're not doing it legally, we can help you do that legally."

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky47:10

       Mm-hmm. I wanna

21. 47:11 – 51:23

    Structuring early growth teams

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky47:11

       chat about team building, something that I've heard you're exceptional at. And my first question is, early on when you were building the team, the growth team specifically at Deel, what skills did you find were most important to look for, and what skills and experience did you find wasn't as important early on that you could kind of sacrifice and wait 'til later to get?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz47:30

       Early on, one of the first questions I would ask people is, "What are the KPIs that you're willing to c- commit to?" So if someone's only willing to commit to, you know, lead numbers, that's not good enough. They need to be able to commit to, you know, closed won, revenue KPRs to really show that they care about the business's bottom line. So it was those people that were willing to commit to the full funnel, and also oftentimes people tend to hire from, you know, the big companies that they want to become like because the brand name is appealing. But if you're a team of 35 people and you're trying to hire the director of whatever from a huge company, you need to ask the question of, when did this person join that huge company? Did they join when the company was already 5,000 people and from day one they had all the resources at their disposal? Or were they actually one of the earlier employees who helped that growth? Because oftentimes the mistake I see people make is they'll hire someone from an amazing company that have accomplished amazing things, but they're not used to operating with 10% of the resources that they had. So they're not willing to kind of get down and do the dirty work, and at Deel, we have this concept called little hands. I think it's loosely translated from French. Um, someone can kind of correct me on that. But it basically means that no matter who you are, where you sit within the organization, you need to be willing to get into the little things.... and kind of do the nitty-gritty work and not shy away from it. And it's very important to whoever we hire when... any level is like, "Are you willing to do the tiniest of the jobs?" And if the answer is yes, that's great. And some people are like, "I would build a team for that." And, of course, in the future maybe you should, but that shouldn't be your first answer. Your first answer should be, "Yes, of course, I'll do that." And if someone's not excited about that, then they're not a good fit for at least the company at our stage right now.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky49:18

       That is an amazing, uh, expression. Little hands.

    4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz49:21

       (laughs)

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky49:22

       You talked about how you check that people are willing to commit to revenue goals. Is that, like, in the interview or is that... Like, how do you... 'Cause when ev- everyone just say, like, "Yeah, yeah, I can commit to anything you need me to commit to. I'm gonna go and make this all work great." How do you kind of get a sense if they're the kind of person that would do that?

    6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz49:38

       It happens within the interview process.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky49:40

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz49:40

       So one ways to find out is, what are the KPIs that they have committed to in the past in their roles? So if they've never committed to a revenue goal or kind of a bottom funnel goal, and they're saying they're willing to commit to it, that's probably not correct. And I always say, you know, if they haven't, I would say, "What are the KPIs that you have today? And what are the KPIs that you think you should have?" Because sometimes they're just not given those, but they still think they should have been given the more bottom funnel. So, that's something that I would look for in the interview process. And a really good way to also test for that is, this is more on the case study process, but asking someone, you know, to come up with a strategy with $0, with $10,000, and maybe $100,000-

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky50:22

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz50:22

        ... to see if they're going to be able to scale with you and to see how are they thinking about with different levels of spend and what are they willing to commit to at different levels of spend. Because if someone's throwing up their hands and saying, "At $0, I can only do social media monitoring. We're not gonna get much, because that's what makes sense," well, you probably know that they're not going to be comfortable committing to those bottom of funnel metrics until you give them all the resources that they need.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky50:46

        And it sounds like the way you goal teams within Deel is also is, uh, is revenue... growth teams basically have revenue goals. It's not, like you said, leads or traffic or anything like that.

    12. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz50:55

        Yes. That's why we're called growth instead of marketing. We care about the revenue growth. And, you know, of course, we track leads and SKOs, those are leading indicators to know whether or not we're going to hit the ultimate number that we all care about. But at the end of the day, that's not what we consider success.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky51:12

        In terms of team structure, how you thought about structuring the early growth team, what did that look like, and what was kind of the reporting lines and buckets of, of investment?

    14. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz51:21

        Yeah. So very early on,

22. 51:23 – 1:01:10

    Building a startup culture

    1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz51:23

       we always seek to bring in kind of one leader to manage a part of the organization and then let them grow their teams. We don't love the idea of hiring people based off of a hypothesis that something is going to work. That's a really good way to have to do layoffs, because the plans you thought were going to work didn't work. So we always hired one person, prove out a theory, and then let them grow their team. So, the first hire we made to the team was actually a product marketing person. To this day, they lead our product team, product marketing team. And they were the ones who sit between the product team and the go-to-market teams and really set the messaging. And quickly we realized this person needs more help in kind of setting the messaging, the tone, so then the second person we hired was a very talented copywriter. And that person today kind of leads our creative teams. And then the third person we actually hired onto the growth team was a data analyst, because the sentiment was, "We're not willing to spend a dollar if we don't know where that money's going and what it's doing for us," which, you know, a lot of people would assume that's a very early hire for, you know, data is too early to hire as number three, but I still think that we did the right thing there. Uh, now we have a whole data team, but back then we didn't. So, those were the kind of three teams that we started with on top. And then the content was... content person was already at Deel by the time that I joined, so that was the person I mentioned that was early employee. So that's kind, kind of how we originally set it. Now the teams have changed, so now we have a different structure, slightly different structure, which is we have regional teams and functional teams. The functional teams are basically subject matter experts. They're good at what they do, and we don't care where they are based in the world. So those are teams like product marketing, content, community, events, paid advertisements, brand. You know, if we are looking for the best graphic designer in the world, I don't care where they are, they can sit wherever the... in the world. They are basically functional teams. And then we have regional teams. Because we are selling into a lot of different regions, we need to make sure that we have local expertise as well. So we have marketing managers for different key regions for us that then work with our functional teams to bring the strategy to life. So that's kind of how we've set it. I've seen businesses who, you know, set u- build out a regional team that has their own paid ads team and their own content team, but what we have found is when you take people away from their kind of group of expertise, so if you take a paid ads person, and if you have a team of paid ads people and you separate those five people and give them to different regions instead of letting them sit together and be a tight team, the best practice is learning and the skill, like, the leveling up of the skills doesn't happen as fast as they would if all of the technical roles are sitting together. So, we are kind of continuing down the road of functional and regional setup.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky54:09

       So say someone in Turkey wants to run paid ads, they convince the paid growth team to invest in resources in growing Turkey?

    3. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz54:16

       Exactly. S- so they would work with our central paid ads team to say, "I would like to run paid ads in Turkey. The... this is the audience I want to go after," and then they work together to execute on that strategy.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky54:28

       How does that team decide who their s- who's gonna get their time? Is there a rough approach to that?

    5. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz54:32

       So it depends on the total addressable market in a region. What are the opportunities we're seeing? What's the competitive landscape like? So, chances are if a market is, you know, what we consider to be tier one, um, it's a place that we have seen good growth, we will invest our resources into it, and then we... along the way we learn and we decide if we're going to double down or pull back a little bit.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky54:53

       Awesome. I want to chat a bit about culture, culture at Deel. So we had Jeff from Ramp on, and their culture is described by one word, velocity. Also being, one of you being the fastest growing business of all time, I'm curious how you contrast your culture, and broadly how you think about culture at a startup, and how you help create the culture at Deel.

    7. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz55:12

       Yeah. So I would say culture is made up of two components. One is, what do you bring to the company as a team member, and what does the company give back to you? So, what we expect the team members to bring to us is, you know, our version of velocity is something that we call Deel speed, is that we want to make sure that we act with urgency. It doesn't matter how big the team has grown, we want to act with urgency on behalf of our customers. If a cus- customer has a problem, they're not going to wait two weeks to get an answer for that, they're going to get that answer within 24 hours. If we need to build out a product because many customers are asking for it, that product is going to get built in one-tenth the time that any of our competitors will likely build it in. So Deel speed is very, very important for us, and that's something we expect from our team members who are committing to it, to say, "What's the quickest way I can solve this problem properly?" And to repeatedly kind of push themselves to kind of act with urgency. We also care, you know, that we remain positive, you know, we have default optimism, because we are in a new space. So if someone's going to come into Deel and they're going to be pessimistic, and they're like, "I don't think that's going to work for X, Y, Z reasons," they're going to just slow things down. We need people to ask the question of, "I think it's going to work for these four reasons. Now let's see what are the risks associated with it, and let's seek to kind of solve those risks." That's, again, something we expect from our team members. And then the last one kind of, well not the last one, but one of the kind of third important ones is, you know, fully giving a shit about your customer. Like, at the end of the day, the product that we have, we are dealing with humans, we're dealing with their livelihood, the way that get paid, we're dealing with the way companies hire. It's so incredibly personal if someone doesn't get their paycheck on time, or if someone gets into illegal trouble because their contract wasn't set up the proper way. So recognizing that it's not a software and a platform that we're trying to make it the best, but it's like, no, it's, it's a business trying to pay a human so they can live their lives and the business can continue growing. So that care is something that we need people to bring to the table. Now, in return of those things coming, what we give back as a company is, you know, outside of obviously your pay, your benefits package, et cetera, is, you know, we offer people the flexibility to choose how and when they do their job, they get to decide on where they work from, what hours they work. So we basically give people all the freedom to set up their life how they want to, as long as they come to the table w- giving us what they need. So I would say we do have an intense culture, and that's expected. We share that openly with people. But at the end of the day, that's also what sets us apart.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky57:48

       I love this, uh, Deel speed. Are these core values basically within Deel? These are values that you come back to?

    9. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz57:54

       Yes, exactly. And these are values that we publicly share as well.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky57:58

        How early in the lifecycle of the company did you all come, come up with these values? That's something that a lot of startups th- think about is like, "When should we actually crystallize these values?"

    11. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz58:06

        So we came up with them, I believe it was about a year in.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky58:10

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz58:10

        But we, we didn't sit around the table and say, "What should we call our values?" Like, Deel speed was something that, you know, our CEO would tell at people. He'd be like, "Okay, I want you to do this, but I want you to do it Deel speed." And one of the early jokes was like, "Let's have company swag that's Deel speedo," and things like that. It's just like, it was already used so frequently with people that we were just like, "Okay, we keep saying this. Let's also kind of like define what it actually is for us and set it in stone and share it with people." So we did go through that exercise probably about a year in into the company being, you know, kind of existing. But the culture happened well before we established that.

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky58:49

        Reminds me at Airbnb. There was a team that came up with the core values, I think, I think it was like four years in probably.

    15. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz58:55

        Mm-hmm.

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky58:56

        And there were six of them. And then a few years later, they realized two of them aren't actually true, they're like aspirational. And there's this kind of recognition that value should be who you are, not who you hope to be, 'cause it just doesn't click. And so they actually cut those values and they ended up having just four values.

    17. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz59:13

        Yes.

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky59:13

        And maybe one day they'll bring them back. And so I think that's a really good lesson is you wanna kind of see who you already are and then just represent them in a really interesting, creative way.

    19. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz59:22

        Yes, exactly.

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky59:23

        There's a version of, what did you call it? Default optim- Um, yeah, default optimism. Airbnb's version of that was embrace the adventure, which is just like, "This is gonna be crazy. Just go for it. Embrace it. This is what it's gonna be like."

    21. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz59:36

        Exactly. And, you know, try and see how can I solve this? Like, how can this be done instead of why it won't work?

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky59:43

        Yeah. I love that. And this urgency piece comes up again and again in these interviews I'm doing. What I think of is Frank Slootman, I think is his name, the founder of Snowflake has this book called Amp It Up!

    23. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz59:53

        Yes.

    24. LRLenny Rachitsky59:54

        All about, yeah, all about just like how they made Snowflake work. And something he comes back to is just you need to constantly have a sense of urgency because when you don't, people, people get bored and they actually end up liking their job less 'cause it's just like, "I don't really know what I'm doing." Things are like sort of moving along, and there's actually a lot of value in moving fast. Jeff talked about this. It's just like you have less burnout when people feel like things are getting done and out the door.

    25. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:00:18

        Yeah. It's incredibly fulfilling. You know, I look back and sometimes things when, for example, when the SBB was going through the issu- issues they were going through, the entire team had to work on a Sunday to kind of communicate with our customers of like, "No, we're good. Don't worry about it." But I remember that Sunday, you know, I had to miss out on a theater I was so excited to see, but it w- it just felt like, "Oh my God," like, "we're in this." It was like a war room, we're doing it. And that felt good. I didn't necessarily show up on Monday feeling already burned out, but it was more like, yes, like, "I felt alive" and I think the right people will feel that way.

    26. LRLenny Rachitsky1:00:52

        Yeah. And as long as it's not like constantly for years just endless-

    27. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:00:56

        Yes.

    28. LRLenny Rachitsky1:00:56

        ... late nights and weekends, I find-

    29. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:00:58

        It can't always be wartime.

    30. LRLenny Rachitsky1:01:00

        Right. I find that those are, end up being the most memorable, meaningful moments, is when you're working really, really hard on something that you're excited about. And it has to be something you're excited about and are proud of.
23. 1:01:10 – 1:05:22

    The story behind Meltem’s unique workspace

    1. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:01:10

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:01:10

       Last question. I saw on Twitter you shared this photo of your home office, and it was this incredible view out the window, and then you took a photo facing your desk and it was an ironing board. And two questions there. One is just (laughs) how did that all happen? And then two, I think you mentioned somewhere that you ha- didn't even meet a lot of your coworkers for a year and a half after joining Deel. It was very remote-forward. So I'm curious also just how you made remote work work for you in that environment.

    3. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:01:36

       Yeah. So I'll explain the ironing board first. So that was because I was actually visiting my family in Istanbul, and in the setup that we have, there's one desk. So my husband and I go rock, paper, scissors, and we'll see who gets the desk and who gets to come up with a secondary solution. And I, he, he won the desk, so I had to come up with a creative solution, and because the view behind me was stunning of the Bosporus, every meeting I joined people were like, "Wow." Like, "I love your view. This is amazing." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, you guys, I'm, I'm sitting on an ironing board right now." (laughs) And to me that was both funny and I ka- kind of wanted to do a reality check with people to be like, "Come on, like, this is not as kind of glorious as it looks." But at the same time, it really, like in that moment, I was like, "This is awesome," you know. I work at Deel. Previously when I wanted to go visit my family in Istanbul, and I'm, I live in Canada, I would have to use my kind of days off to go. And for me, it just meant a lot to be able to, like, do my work regardless of where I am, you know. I had a full day of work and meetings and everything, and my work just kind of continued, and I was also being able to be with my family. So, like, it was a moment of Deel's promise kind of coming true in a very real way in my life, and I thought it was kind of hilarious. My dad thought it was so unprofessional that I shared that with the public.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:53

       (laughs)

    5. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:02:53

       But then again, he hasn't fully wrapped his head around the startup world. So, you know, it, it was just one of those moments of sh- sharing that, yeah, w- work can be remote, and it can be whatever you want it to be. So that's the, kind of the story behind it. Uh, in this moment as we're recording this, I am in a proper home office with a desk and a back-supported chair.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:13

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:03:13

       So, (laughs) you know, it changes all the time. And in terms of kind of, to going back to your second question of early days not meeting the team members, as I said, I joined Deel in July 2020. Pandemic was kind of at its peak. Me being based in Canada, Canada had very strict restrictions of, "You can't leave the country. We won't let you back in." So I had to stay put, and I worked for a year and a half at Deel before, for the first time, where I met our team members was at a conference in Lisbon.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:42

       Hmm.

    9. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:03:43

       And I showed up, and it was this surreal moment, 'cause I worked with them for a year and a half. We'd accomplished so much, you know. Our revenue was already, you know, way past $50 million, and I was seeing these people for the first time. So that was kind of very funny. But if I look at the early days of Deel, there's a lot of little stories like that where, you know, we forgot to create swag until we reached a billion dollars, and it was actually when we were, our photo was going to be on the NASDAQ and we went to take a team picture that we were like, "Guys, we need to have T-shirts. Can someone please run to a store in New York and, like, print our logo on something?" So a lot of those things kind of, just by the nature of being a pandemic business, kind of came in a little bit later. But the thing that allowed, I think, for me and Deel to build the culture early on was, because we all work from home, we've been like that from day one, we have the option to go into, you know, WeWorks and sh- co-working spaces if, if that's something that you choose. But we all get to show up as, like, our very authentic selves. So, you know, people have met my pets and my partner well before they would have if I was showing up to an office. So there's that kind of sincerity that comes with in being, with being s- in someone's home that we really relied on early on. And as a company, like, I never felt the pressure to show up in a certain way or, you know, dress up for meetings or anything. So just being able to show up as yourself, and, you know, whether you're an introverted person who never likes to turn on their camera or you're someone who's going to be like, "Here, meet my dog," that just naturally built a team culture and kind of camaraderie well before we could be together in person.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:05:20

        Hmm. Clearly, it has worked out.

24. 1:05:22 – 1:06:05

    Closing thoughts on growth

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:05:22

       Meltem, is there anything else that you want to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:05:26

       We had a really good conversation. The one thing I would kinda tell people is most of growth people assume is very difficult. I'm not necessarily saying it's easy, but it's relatively straightforward when you go back to the first principles of just figuring out where are the people at, how can I add value, and how, as long as your product is there to actually bring them value. So, I would say, like, people should just recognize that it's much simpler than they think it is. It just takes a lot of discipline to kind of execute on it. It's not rocket science.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:01

       Quite an empowering statement. I love it. With that, we've

25. 1:06:05 – 1:10:29

    Lightning round

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:05

       reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready?

    2. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:06:07

       I am ready. Let's do this.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:09

       What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

    4. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:06:13

       From the non-fiction world, How Will You Measure Your Life? by Clay Christensen. That's one I recommend. He kinda takes the business learnings that he's had and applies it to your life. It's a very short and easy to kind of get through book. Outside of that, I constantly recommend fiction. I think at one point, we became, like, it became uncool to read fiction, that, like, every moment you have needs to be productive and you need to learn something. I don't care what fiction it is you read. You can read Judy Blume for all I care. But just read fiction. Like, be creative. Do something with your brain other than, you know, reading non-fiction and learning things all the time.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:48

       I've had to make that shift myself, and it's been great. But I still get drawn to non-fiction.

    6. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:06:52

       (laughs)

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:52

       But, uh, good reminder.

    8. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:06:54

       Yes.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:55

       What are some favorite recent movie or TV shows you've loved?

    10. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:06:58

        Favorite recent movie, I think along with everybody else, was Oppenheimer. I thought it was great. I do wish they explored a little bit more of, like, why he was the person that drove everybody to excellence. But, overall love the movie, kind of. Did not think I could sit through three hours without peeing, but I did.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky1:07:14

        (laughs)

    12. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:07:14

        And favorite recent TV show was The Summer I Turned Pretty. I absolutely love it. I don't care that it's actually designed for teenagers. (laughs)

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky1:07:22

        (laughs)

    14. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:07:22

        I enjoyed every second of it.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky1:07:24

        What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates when you're interviewing them?

    16. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:07:28

        What would your siblings say about you? It's very telling, if they have siblings. If they don't, I will say, "What would your parents say about you?" But it's very telling what you think other people think of you.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky1:07:41

        What do you look for in their answer that gives you a sign that they're a good candidate or not?

    18. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:07:45

        I look for sincerity and self-awareness. Like your siblings are never... I mean, I love my sister, but she probably should talk to me a lot. And being aware of that is very important. Like if someone was like, "My siblings will say I'm very organized, and that I'm the one that brings our family together." Like that's probably a bullshit answer. But if they're like, "Ah, yeah. Like they'll say these weird things about me." That shows a little bit of like self-awareness and humbleness that I want to see in a person.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:11

        What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

    20. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:08:14

        Oh, this is a dangerous one, so two. One was NOOstrips, they're caffeine strips. I find, you know, caffeine pills and everything, or when I drink coffee is, like, accidentally I'll have 300 milligrams and then I'm buzzing. Um, but these are 50 milligrams each, so it's very easy to stop yourself. And they don't taste bad. So those I like, for when I just, like, need a little boost.

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:33

        So they're just like strips that you put in your mouth?

    22. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:08:35

        Kind of like Listerine strips.

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:37

        And they give you 50-

    24. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:08:37

        And you put it on your tongue, and then it also doesn't give you the jitters.

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:41

        ...

    26. NANarrator1:08:41

        (laughs)

    27. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:08:41

        And it's just 50 milligrams, which is a very mild cup of coffee.

    28. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:45

        Micro-dosing caffeine.

    29. MBMeltem Kuran Berkowitz1:08:46

        Exactly.

    30. NANarrator1:08:48

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:11:50