Dylan Field live at Figma's Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design

Lenny Rachitsky 0:00 (instrumental music) Today, I'm excited to bring you a very special episode which was recorded live at Figma Config with Figma CEO and co-founder, Dillon Field, in front of a live audience at the Moscone Center in San Francisco. This is the first ever live recording of this podcast, and it was so much fun. If you watch this on YouTube, you can see the epic stage that they built specifically for us to recreate my podcast studio. I could not be more thankful to the Config team for making this happen. In my conversation with Dillon, we dig into how he builds and refines his product taste and intuition, how intuition is a hypothesis generator, the future of product management, how Dillon attempts to operationalize keeping Figma simple and to continue simplifying the experience, a bunch of stories from the early days of Figma that I've never heard before. Also, he shares his favorite AI tool called WebSim, which is wild. And if you wait till the very end, you can see a very young child actor Dillon Field in a clip that I found online that was hilarious. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring Dillon

Lenny Rachitsky 1:11 Field. Dillon, thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the podcast.

Dylan Field 1:16 Thank you, Lenny. (laughs) Hi, all.

Narrator 1:21 (cheering)

Lenny Rachitsky 1:21 Uh, is this... Is this your first live podcast?

Dylan Field 1:24 This is my first ever live podcast. Also, uh, a big thank you to the Config team who set up this crazy studio. I had no idea this was gonna happen. I feel like I'm in my studio here with a thousand people watching us. Uh, it's very impressive.

Lenny Rachitsky 1:36 I, I very much dig the background and also the mics that may or may not be wired.

Dylan Field 1:40 That's right. Don't, don't say that. Don't tell people.

Lenny Rachitsky 1:42 Oh, sorry. (laughs)

Dylan Field 1:44 There's no wires coming out of them.

Lenny Rachitsky 1:45 There's no one behind the curtain either. (laughs)

Dylan Field 1:48 Okay. So, Dillon, I wanna start by just checking in on how you're doing. So Config is about to wrap up. We... You've been at it for two days now. Uh-huh. I know how much lift goes into doing these sorts of things. I imagine you've been thinking about this for a long time now. I'm just curious how you're doing. Any surprises? Any highlights? Any lowlights? Uh, the highlight is the community and just the incredible, incredible people here at Config. Yeah. Y'all are awesome. (cheering) I don't know why I keep talking in the mic like this. (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 2:19 (laughs)

Dylan Field 2:19 It's instinctual (laughs) . Um, but seriously, it's just the most amazing community to be part of. And, uh, I, I feel so lucky. And then, um, in terms of how I'm doing in this exact moment-

Lenny Rachitsky 2:30 Yeah.

Dylan Field 2:30 ... like exhausted, but riding on caffeine and whatever this, like, really cool probiotic drink is.

Narrator 2:35 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 2:36 Any surprises from the past couple of days? Anything that's like, "Oh, wow, that went a lot better than I thought," maybe less well?

Dylan Field 2:42 Um, yeah. I mean, like, you know, demo, uh, definitely things I would have improved.

Lenny Rachitsky 2:47 (laughs)

Dylan Field 2:48 Uh, but also, like the, uh, Emile and Mahika were phenomenal. Uh, and it was, it was just like so awesome to see them do their demos and, uh, present materials. And then, um, yeah, I was just really pleased with the conversation, I think, that's getting started at Config around AI. Um, and, uh, I think that... You know, I was looking online, um, on social media, and I think people are already kind of like zeroing in the right conversation, which is-

Lenny Rachitsky 3:16 Yeah.

Dylan Field 3:16 ... okay, in a world of, you know, more software being created by AI, what does that mean? And, you know, the impact on craft and the impact on quality and the, uh, need to have more unique design-

Lenny Rachitsky 3:35 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 3:36 ... and how design is a differentiator, and I think some people are saying, "I agree with that." Some people are saying, "I disagree with that," and that's exactly the bounds of, um, what the conversation I kind of imagined would emerge, uh, from yesterday.

Lenny Rachitsky 3:49 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 3:49 Um, you know, it's funny. The Make design feature, you know, we... Uh, I think I said on the keynote, I was like, "This is gonna give you the most obvious thing in the most obvious form possible." And then people online were like, "It's just gonna give you some obvious thing."

Narrator 4:05 (laughs)

Dylan Field 4:07 I agree. (laughs)

Narrator 4:09 (laughs)

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Lenny Rachitsky 6:58 keep talking about design. You once said that the definition of design is art applied to problem-solving. Can you just add a bit more to that? What do you mean by that? 'Cause that's an amazing line.

Dylan Field 7:09 Well, I, I don't think it's my original line.

Lenny Rachitsky 7:11 Mm.

Dylan Field 7:11 I think someone else said it, but, um, there's a lot of definitions of design out there too. I mean, there's also design as dialogue or design as problem-solving. You could just go straight there. Um, y- I could go with, like, 10 more, but, uh-

Lenny Rachitsky 7:22 (laughs)

Dylan Field 7:22 ... uh, but yeah, I like, I like art apri- applied to problem-solving because I think that, um, design is often, uh, there is some component of creativity to it and unique expression that you're trying to provide and create and put out into the world, but you are also trying to do it and match it to a user need, a problem that needs to be solved. And, uh, I, I think that, um, it's not pure art, and if you, but if you lose the art and you're just solving the problem, like, it's totally utilitarian and it has, um, it, it lacks soul. And so the combination of those two things, uh, is,

Dylan Field 8:01 to me, really beautiful.

Lenny Rachitsky 8:02 I'm gonna pivot to a very hard-hitting question. I hope your PR people don't kill me for asking you this.

Dylan Field 8:07 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 8:07 Many people asked me to ask you this question.

Dylan Field 8:09 Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky 8:09 Very important. Please explain a Figma tradition called raccoon feet and muffin hands.

Dylan Field 8:15 (laughs) Okay, um... (laughs) I, I should probably just leave this interview now.

Lenny Rachitsky 8:22 (laughs)

Dylan Field 8:22 No, um, uh, okay, so, uh, this is a, a co- a conversation, I'm not sure exactly where it started, but it was started early at Figma, and basically we had these, um, lunch tables at Figma where we would just kinda all gather and have very long, interesting, meandering conversations before we got back to work. And, uh, one of the questions that was a would you rather was, "Would you rather have raccoons for feet-"

Lenny Rachitsky 8:45 Hmm.

Dylan Field 8:46 "... or muffins for hands?" And I, I think this is, this is a deeply philosophical question.

Lenny Rachitsky 8:52 (laughs)

Dylan Field 8:53 Uh, I have pondered it, uh, since I've heard it. I still don't have, uh, one answer. If you've got an answer, I'm-

Lenny Rachitsky 9:01 Uh.

Dylan Field 9:01 ... curious what it is.

Lenny Rachitsky 9:02 I've got follow-up questions. Are the, uh-

Dylan Field 9:03 (clears throat)

Lenny Rachitsky 9:04 ... do the raccoon, uh, can you control where the raccoon take you, or are they just deciding on their own what's happening?

Dylan Field 9:09 Uh, I think that raccoons, um, probably wouldn't even agree with each other where to go.

Lenny Rachitsky 9:13 Okay, that's complicated. Uh...

Dylan Field 9:16 I mean, if, if you had raccoons for feet right now, do you think that it would interfere with this podcast?

Lenny Rachitsky 9:21 But, uh, muffin hands would also interfere with my newsletter, and I feel-

Dylan Field 9:23 That's right.

Lenny Rachitsky 9:24 ... like I'd be out of work. I don't know if you can type. I need a special keyboard. Okay, this is very difficult.

Dylan Field 9:29 You haven't even talked about the upsides to this yet. (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 9:32 (laughs) Yeah. What are the upsides?

Dylan Field 9:34 Uh, we could get there. It's o- but then-

Lenny Rachitsky 9:36 Maybe you could eat some of the muffin-

Dylan Field 9:36 There's a case for optimism.

Lenny Rachitsky 9:37 ... cupcakes?

Dylan Field 9:38 Yeah, y- if y- if you have muffins for hands, you know, maybe, if you're hungry...

Lenny Rachitsky 9:41 Do they regenerate after, as you eat them?

Dylan Field 9:43 Uh, that's a good question.

Lenny Rachitsky 9:44 Okay. There's no answers here, just questions.

Dylan Field 9:46 (laughs) Do your nails grow?

Lenny Rachitsky 9:49 Yeah. Oh, okay, interesting. Hmm. It's deeper than you might think.

Dylan Field 9:55 Hmm.

Lenny Rachitsky 9:55 Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky 9:57 Okay, um-

Dylan Field 9:58 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 9:58 ... I'm gonna play a short clip with Rick Rubin, and then I have a question about it.

Dylan Field 10:02 Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky 10:03 So we'll see if that plays.

Narrator 10:04 (instrumental music playing) But exactly what he does and how is difficult to describe. Do you play instruments? Barely. Do you know how to work a soundboard? No. I have no technical ability, and I know nothing about music. (laughs) You must know something. Well, I know what I like and what I don't like, and I'm, I'm decisive about what I like and what I don't like. So what are you being paid for? The confidence that I have in my taste and my ability to express what I feel has proven helpful for artists.

Lenny Rachitsky 10:44 Okay, so I'm not gonna say this is you. (laughs)

Dylan Field 10:48 (laughs) Need to grow the beard. (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 10:50 But I think this is a little bit you, because what I've heard from a number of your colleagues is that one of your superpowers is intuition and product taste, and someone said that you have the sixth sense for what's gonna work when you're designing Figma and you're making decisions in the product. So I'm curious how you've built and refined your intuition and product taste when it comes to Figma and then even broadly.

Dylan Field 11:12 W- that's a lot kinder than I thought you were gonna be.

Lenny Rachitsky 11:14 (laughs)

Dylan Field 11:15 I thought you were gonna be like, "You don't know how to code, and you don't know how to design."

Lenny Rachitsky 11:17 No.

Dylan Field 11:18 (laughs) Um, but, um, uh, no, I, I, I mean, I, I think, um, the, here's my framework for it. I think intuition is like a hypothesis generator, and, uh, you're constantly generating these hypotheses, and others are generating hypotheses as well. And you then take these hypotheses and you put them forward, and you debate them, and you try to find data to support them or negate them, and then you whittle it down into, like, what is our working hypothesis? And from that, uh, you move forward.

Lenny Rachitsky 11:48 I heard that you read every tweet that mentions Figma and share them with folks, and there's a Slack channel where you paste them. I imagine that is a part of this, where you're just constantly watching what people are saying about Figma, what people are complaining about?

Dylan Field 12:00 I mean, I, I, uh, yeah, I, I definitely look everywhere, um, trying to constantly ingest information about Figma, uh, and it's not just, like, Twitter/X, whatever that's called now.

Lenny Rachitsky 12:12 (laughs)

Dylan Field 12:12 Uh, but...... you know, anywhere on the internet, support channels, et cetera. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm always trying to understand... I also ask a lot of questions, um, and I try to get to root problems and understand where people are coming from and what are they actually trying to solve. Uh, sometimes people are, are saying, "Hey, I need X," but they really want Y or Z.

Lenny Rachitsky 12:39 Hmm.

Dylan Field 12:39 And, you know, trying to do that myself and kind of engage and dive deeper there, but also to encourage our team to do that, uh, I think leads to, you know, really good outcomes in terms of what we

Dylan Field 12:50 ship.

Lenny Rachitsky 12:51 Uh, is there something you've changed your mind about? Kind of building on that. Uh, either based on customer feedback or some employee just, like, making a case and, like, "Okay, you're right." Is there something that comes to mind of something you've changed your mind about recently?

Dylan Field 13:04 Um-

Narrator 13:05 Slides.

Lenny Rachitsky 13:05 (laughs)

Dylan Field 13:06 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 13:07 Somebody said, "Slides."

Dylan Field 13:07 Someone shouted out, "Slides." Uh, I have not.

Lenny Rachitsky 13:10 (laughs)

Dylan Field 13:10 Uh, it's Figma slides. Um-

Lenny Rachitsky 13:13 (laughs)

Narrator 13:14 (laughs)

Dylan Field 13:15 I... Well, it's not recent, but, like, one good example of me changing my mind, uh, is that y'all have pages in Figma. You're welcome.

Lenny Rachitsky 13:22 (laughs)

Dylan Field 13:22 Um, but, like, I, I think I have deep skepticism about pages still. Like, I'm not, I'm not sure they're like... If you could freeze time and I could just go and, with my team, work on Figma for a very long time, um, I'm not sure we'd come to the same implementation of pages that we are at today.

Lenny Rachitsky 13:44 Hmm.

Dylan Field 13:45 Uh, I, I, I just don't think it's, like, the most elegant solution in the context of, like, the entire system of product design that you could create. The world told me and our team that that did not matter and they needed pages (laughs) . And don't worry, we're not unshipping pages.

Narrator 14:01 (laughs)

Dylan Field 14:02 Uh, but, but, yeah, I, I'm, I'm still very skeptical of them. Uh, and I think that, in general, p- probably my team would tell you that, um, I don't always change my mind, but I also, uh, I, like, build trust with people in deep ways. And I think across our organization, if things are not gonna be fatal, then if I hear from someone, "Hey, I really think we should do X," then I'll say, "Okay, just go with it. And here are my, here's my feedback. Here's what I'm skeptical of. Let's see what happens."

Lenny Rachitsky 14:43 Yeah.

Dylan Field 14:43 And then, you know, sometimes they come back to me and they're like, "See, I was right." But-

Lenny Rachitsky 14:47 (laughs)

Dylan Field 14:47 But usually they're pretty polite about it.

Narrator 14:49 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 14:49 Just to, just to build on that. Something a lot of people, uh, try to work on is being good at influencing leadership, exec CEOs. What do you find helps you... help- works to change your mind? What do people come to you with that helps you like, "Okay, you're actually right"?

Dylan Field 15:05 I think the more concrete an artifact is or the more you can debate something, the better.

Lenny Rachitsky 15:09 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 15:10 Uh, I, like, ask for examples a lot. I try to ask follow-up questions about things, um, and make sure I fully understand it. And I think, uh, where I get stuck sometimes is if I, like, ask follow-up questions and we don't have answers yet. And then my response might be, "Let's go find the answer to these questions, and then let's go back to this conversation-"

Lenny Rachitsky 15:32 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 15:33 ... if I think it's something that's really important. And I think for some people they might go, "Okay, this is actually really obvious. Like, I can't believe you're so dense and you don't get it yet."

Lenny Rachitsky 15:41 (laughs)

Dylan Field 15:41 Uh, and sometimes they're right, and they come back and they're like, "Okay, here's the data now. Can we move on?" Um, and we do. We move on, and they're right. And, uh, uh, and, yeah, I, I just think that, um, it's, it's important though to just really understand something from first principles, uh, for, for a lot of decisions. And maybe it's just a perfectionist quality.

Lenny Rachitsky 16:05 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 16:06 But, uh, repeated over time, I think it's... it, it leads to good outcomes, uh, as long as you make sure it's not bottlenecking the organization.

Lenny Rachitsky 16:15 Okay, so kind of following up on that. Let's talk about product management.

Dylan Field 16:17 Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky 16:19 So last year you had Brian Chesky here. I think maybe on this stage, maybe a bigger stage. And he, he kind of said that they got rid of product management at Airbnb, and everyone cheered and all the PMs were very sad.

Narrator 16:29 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 16:30 And he didn't actually mean they got rid of product management. They changed the function and evolved it.

Dylan Field 16:34 (laughs)

Narrator 16:35 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 16:35 I'm curious just to get your take.

Narrator 16:37 (laughs)

Dylan Field 16:37 Yeah.

Lenny Rachitsky 16:38 It's funny. Um-

Dylan Field 16:40 This is why we have you here, Lenny, so, you know. It's your answer, no? (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 16:43 Yeah, I had him on the podcast-

Dylan Field 16:44 It's important after all. Surprise! (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 16:45 We're still here. We're still here.

Dylan Field 16:47 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 16:47 Um, I wanna get your take on product management. Uh, you all have amazing product managers at Figma. I've had three of them on the podcast already. I'm curious just what value you find the best product managers bring to Figma.

Dylan Field 17:01 It was really funny. Uh, last year after that interview, so Yuki, uh, our chief product officer-

Lenny Rachitsky 17:08 (laughs)

Dylan Field 17:08 ... had invited me to a dinner, uh, for our PM team. And, you know, it took a while to get out of config, uh, at the end of the day. And I, uh, I eventually made it to the dinner, but I was like 40 minutes late. And I walk in, and Mahika, uh, who was on stage yesterday presenting sl- uh, slides, Figma slides.

Narrator 17:30 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 17:31 Slide, slides. Uh...

Dylan Field 17:34 Uh, she was, she was like standing up and doing a mock, uh, Brian Chesky impersonation.

Narrator 17:41 (laughs)

Dylan Field 17:42 And she, she's like standing up in front of the entire product team and she goes, "And then Brian Chesky's like, 'There don't need to be any PMs.' And Dylan's like, 'Ooh.'"

Narrator 17:51 (laughs)

Dylan Field 17:52 And I'm like, "Hi, Mahika." (laughs)

Narrator 17:55 (laughs)

Dylan Field 17:55 And, you know, I'd never seen her so red. Uh. (laughs)

Narrator 17:59 (laughs)

Dylan Field 17:59 And then I gave like a, you know, like quick, "Hey, PM team. I believe in you. Thank you for your hard work." (laughs) Uh, but seriously, I, I, um, uh... I think that if you kind of zoom out, it's always tricky whenever you're asked to formally define what is the separation between a product manager, a designer, and an engineer.It's, it's always hard to actually create those clear lines. And I think in many organizations, they're blurry. But at the end of the day, you know, a PM and designer, they need to have some technical expertise, or at least understand how the systems, systems work, uh, to probably create the best things they can possibly make. Um, you know, a designer engineer, they should probably have some sense of the business objectives. They should have some sense of what users want. Um, an engineer and a product manager, they should have, you know, taste and craft, and, uh, and, and some sense of the option space, and, uh, some ability to care about, or, or desire to care about the visual implementation. Um, so I, I, and I think, and you can include research in there too, if you wanna make it four legs of the stool rather than the trio. Uh, and, and you can talk about, you know, all three probably should have exposure to users and be talking and in dialogue with users. So, so I think that, um, if you think about sort of that, that group holistically, each is important. If you think about a team, there's all these qualities that you have to have to make a great product, and that said, I think for product managers and the product function, what I think it, sometimes when you see people that fall down in that function, it's because they treat it too much like process, uh, which is very important too, don't get me wrong. Good process, uh, can help support good outcomes. But I think that you can't lose sight of the problems that you're solving. You have to go talk to users, and you have to actually have a strategy, and if you're really good, you should have a point of view. And some point of views are gonna lead to good outcomes, and some point of views aren't. And there's sort of some, some sense of taste. And you also have to bring everyone together and make sure that they get to the objective, that it's celebrated, uh, and that at the end of the project, or at, when you complete a milestone, everyone's stoked. Otherwise, it's not gonna be a team that gels, you're not gonna get to the next outcome. Even if, you know, you get to an outcome and, you know, it's a milestone, but if everyone's unhappy, like, you kind of failed.

Lenny Rachitsky 20:42 Yeah.

Dylan Field 20:42 And so somehow good product people are able to do all this, and they're able to create great frameworks that bring everyone along with them, and so everyone's able to have a shared headspace around what it is they're trying to get to.

Lenny Rachitsky 20:55 Someone (clears throat) once said that if a PM, if PMs disappeared, or if a PM goes on vacation, uh, everything's okay for, like, a week or two or three, and then things start to crumble a little bit, because they're, s- they kind of glue everything together. Do you, I don't know, do you find that sort of thing... Let me actually ask a different question

Lenny Rachitsky 21:12 along those lines. Are you bearish or bullish on the future of product management? Do you think PMs will continue the way they are? Do you think PMs will dwindle? Any sense of the future of product management?

Dylan Field 21:23 Um, I, I think probably everyone's learning to do a bit more of everyone else's job in this current moment. Uh, that said, I definitely think there's still immense value, uh, in product, immense value in design, immense value in engineering, and so I think those roles will continue to exist.

Lenny Rachitsky 21:43 So maybe just, I just wanna come back to the question of just the, what the best PMs that you work with, do you find, what value do they most bring? I guess, is there anything that's like, here's, what would be gone if we didn't have these PMs?

Dylan Field 21:57 The best PMs, I think, uh, again, create those frameworks that bring everyone else along, and those frameworks also have a point of view and a strategy associated with them.

Lenny Rachitsky 22:07 Hmm.

Dylan Field 22:07 So you're able to kind of, like, take the strategy, take the point of view, wrap it all up in a framework, and then make it so that, uh, everyone knows what the destination is and how to, how to get there.

Lenny Rachitsky 22:18 Awesome.

Lenny Rachitsky 22:20 Okay, so kind of along these lines, something I've heard you're really big on is simplification. Uh, somebody told me that when you're in des- in a designer view and things just feel too complex to you, uh, quote, "You furrow your brow and insist there must be something simpler." Why is simplification so top of mind for you? Why is it so important for you, and just why is it so hard to do?

Dylan Field 22:41 Oh, gosh. Um...

Lenny Rachitsky 22:42 (laughs)

Dylan Field 22:43 Well, I think probably anyone here who's, like, worked on product knows how hard it is. Uh, it's, I think the, the more that you add, uh, the harder it is to create something that's coherent. Um, you know, the, one, one, uh, essay that Evan, my co-founder, introduced me to early on in Figma's history, uh, I think from, uh, uh, Stevie's Drunken Blog Rants or something like that-

Lenny Rachitsky 23:06 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 23:07 ... uh, it contains the term irreducible complexity, and it's basically this idea that, like, one plus one does not equal three. It sometimes equals, like, one and a half, uh, and the more that you add and the more that you continue to put in something, um, the more complex it gets and the worse it gets.

Lenny Rachitsky 23:24 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 23:25 And I think this is definitely true for tools. So in the context of Figma, uh, we can make it more powerful, but to do that in a way that's not making it more complex at the same time is extremely hard.

Lenny Rachitsky 23:36 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 23:37 And we have to always be paying attention to how complex or how simple things are, uh, because if we don't, it just kind of becomes a monstrosity really fast. And there's parts of our product that, like, I, I don't wanna dive into that part of the conversation, the self-critique, but, uh, um, definitely, like, as I'm in conversation with a bunch of our product leaders at Figma, there's parts where it's like, "Okay, this thing is too complex as a system," and we made, like, all the right local decisions, and yet together, they're too complex and they're not working anymore, and let's go revisit the system now.

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Lenny Rachitsky 24:59 I know you just redesigned Figma. I imagine part of that came from things are just getting too complicated-

Dylan Field 25:03 Mm-hmm.

Lenny Rachitsky 25:03 ... not as simple as we want. Is there anything that's been, like, bugging you in the old Figma, but like, "Oh, this is way too complicated. I really wanna simplify this thing."

Dylan Field 25:09 Yes.

Lenny Rachitsky 25:10 Okay. What's that? (laughs)

Dylan Field 25:12 (laughs) Uh, (laughs) we'll move on, but I, I-

Narrator 25:14 (laughs)

Dylan Field 25:15 ... many things. (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 25:17 Okay. (laughs) Sounds good. Um, okay-

Narrator 25:20 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 25:20 And in terms of how to keep things simple, uh, so I had Dharmesh Shaw on the podcast, he's the co-founder of HubSpot.

Dylan Field 25:27 Yeah.

Lenny Rachitsky 25:27 And the way he described it is that you're always fighting the second law of thermodynamics-

Dylan Field 25:30 Mm-hmm.

Lenny Rachitsky 25:31 ... of entropy, just the product getting more complicated. And he kind of sees, uh, himself as part of the solution is you, top down, you have to, like, be on top of that. Is that the way you see it? Like, that's kind of your role to keep things simple? Do you think people further down the ladder can do that or... I don't know. How do you-

Dylan Field 25:46 Absolutely. Yeah. Everyone's responsible for simplicity. And I think, another quote that is not mine, but is a really good one is, you know, "Keep the simple things simple. Make the complex things possible." And I think that's a really important, uh, uh, principle to hold-

Lenny Rachitsky 25:59 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 25:59 ... as you're designing tools.

Lenny Rachitsky 26:01 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 26:02 Um, and I'd say that, uh, it's really easy to make the simple things complex unfortunately.

Lenny Rachitsky 26:10 Okay. I wanna pivot to talking about early days Figma.

Dylan Field 26:13 Sure.

Lenny Rachitsky 26:14 So, I don't know how many people know this, but it took three and a half years to launch Figma from when you were beginning to work on it.

Dylan Field 26:19 Way too long. Don't do that. (laughs)

Narrator 26:21 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 26:21 Okay. This is, this is my question. So, it took three and a half years to launch, and then five years to get your first customer. Uh, Dylan, what the hell were you doing all that time?

Narrator 26:29 (laughs)

Dylan Field 26:29 I don't think it took five years for our first... Well, okay, paid... At first, we paid customers-

Lenny Rachitsky 26:33 Yeah.

Dylan Field 26:34 Sure. Okay, fine.

Narrator 26:34 (laughs)

Dylan Field 26:34 Um, slightly less, but, but yep-

Lenny Rachitsky 26:37 Okay.

Dylan Field 26:37 ... approximately five years-

Lenny Rachitsky 26:38 Close enough.

Dylan Field 26:38 ... I guess if you round up. Um.

Narrator 26:41 (laughs)

Dylan Field 26:43 Uh, I, I mean, I think that, you know, if, if we had, if I had been probably better at hiring and recruiting-

Lenny Rachitsky 26:48 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 26:49 ... like if Na- I see Nadia in the audience, um, making eye contact with her the entire time for some reason-

Narrator 26:53 (laughs)

Dylan Field 26:53 She's our, our chief people officer. If she had been at Figma from day one, we would've hired probably faster, and, uh, and we would, would've gone to market faster. But I think that, um, yeah, it was, it was a hard product, uh, to build and to get everything to come together with. I also see Shou. Um, and, uh, I think for, uh, Shou has joined us as a director of engineering. He's a VP of product now. Again, people can wear many hats. Um, and he was someone that joined Figma and, uh, said, "Hey, y'all need to ship this thing. You're really close."

Lenny Rachitsky 27:31 (laughs)

Dylan Field 27:32 Um, and he really helped catalyze us to ship in that moment. And, you know, I think he... In week one, he gave a presentation and was like, "Here's what we gotta do. Here's the gap. Everyone agrees on it. Let's go." So.

Lenny Rachitsky 27:45 Mm-hmm. And so you already said that you wish you shipped earlier. Is there any advice there for just people building something today of just-

Dylan Field 27:49 Oh, get it out as fast as you possibly can.

Lenny Rachitsky 27:51 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 27:52 Um, eh, like, everything they tell you about, uh, you know, making sure that you get a product out really quickly is totally true. The faster you get it out, the more feedback you get, that is a positive thing. And, um, uh, now I, I index on that when we try to build, and FigJam's a great example of that. We shipped it incredibly fast-

Lenny Rachitsky 28:15 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 28:15 ... um, and it helped us get to market and get feedback faster. Figma slides, great example of that too. Dev mode, for what it's worth, it took us longer. Uh, we just had to keep iterating and building it, and building it again. Uh, you know, certain directions we tried didn't work out.

Lenny Rachitsky 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 28:32 And we really had to get to a place where we were able to, um, really believe that we were adding value and really understood the developer as user. And it just didn't happen for a long time. So, it's f- it's interesting because I think people look at dev mode and sometimes they go, "Oh, this is, this is quite simple." To the point about simplicity. Um, you know, Figma, uh, like, like, w- is this, is this, uh, simpler than FigJam? You know, the reality was it took, like, at least three times as long.

Lenny Rachitsky 29:02 Mm-hmm. So you, your advice is ship quickly.

Lenny Rachitsky 29:07 There's also this kind of push that, that, uh-

Dylan Field 29:09 Uh, I'd hold a bar for sure.

Lenny Rachitsky 29:11 That's, that's kind of the question I have is there's also a lot of talk of just, like, the, the bar has risen. Uh, you need, especially B2B software, craft is really important. You need... Like, Linear talks a lot about this just, like, the bar is very high for people to switch from something out there. Is there anything... I don't, uh, I don't know. I don't think you'll have, like, here's the answer when you're ready to ship. But just any advice of just, like, here's good enough versus like, no, you should probably wait.

Dylan Field 29:32 Well, you know, another thing that Evan taught me was that, um, for a new launch, you've got quality, features, deadline, choose two.

Lenny Rachitsky 29:39 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 29:40 And, uh, I think that the beautiful thing about software is you can keep iterating on it. So, it's not like a physical product where you have to always have quality in there, otherwise, it's never gonna have quality. You can ship it with features and deadline, and then improve it iteratively over time. I'm not saying you should always do that. Sometimes you need to at least have a minimum bar of quality for the things you have, and you're gonna ship less features maybe. Uh, so you choose fe- you know, quality and deadline. And sometimes you say, "Actually, here's the minimum feature set, and we're gonna have this quality bar." And you're willing to push it out. But I think you have to know when you're introducing a new thing what it's gonna take, and then, uh, to make that minimally awesome product, but also when you're, um... Yeah, I think that, that, um, when you're iteratively improving it, like, you shouldn't just be focused on the features, you have to focus on the quality too.

Lenny Rachitsky 30:33 Uh, I like this term you used, minimally awesome product.

Dylan Field 30:35 Yeah.

Lenny Rachitsky 30:36 Love it. Um,

Lenny Rachitsky 30:39 the... Okay. So, the way you got your early users for Figma is quite fascinating. I don't know how many people know this story, but you basically wrote a script to scrape Twitter and create a s- a graph of the most influential designers on Twitter, and then you made it your mission to convince them to use Figma and make 'em evangelists. Uh, is there anything more to the story there? And then I have a question about... kind of along those lines.

Dylan Field 30:59 Yeah. I mean, uh, y- you can't do this anymore, first of all.

Lenny Rachitsky 31:02 (laughs)

Dylan Field 31:02 Uh, (laughs) because the Twitter API doesn't exist anymore. Um, rest in peace, Twitter API. (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 31:09 (laughs)

Dylan Field 31:09 Uh, but, um, uh, I mean, look, I was, uh, intern at LinkedIn, and when I was there I saw, uh, some really cool work people had done with Gephi, uh, which was a sort of network visualization tool. And based on that, uh, I thought it'd be interesting to try to, like you said, look at who the, the design network was, who the central nodes were, which you can just run page rank on and see. Uh, and you can do that for other communities too, which I, I've, I have done in the past, uh, just 'cause I'm curious about social network dynamics and-

Lenny Rachitsky 31:40 Wow.

Dylan Field 31:40 ... social network analysis. Uh, and, um, and, and you could just, like, do those things back in 2012, 2013, when Figma started. Uh, so yeah, so I, I kinda constructed this list of like, "Here are the most central designers in the graph," but also then I, like, looked at their work, and then the ones that I was really inspired by, and, like, as a total fanboy and someone who, like, wanted to learn as much as I could about design, uh, was inspired by these folks. The ones I was inspired by, I reached out to-

Lenny Rachitsky 32:11 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 32:11 ... and said, "Hey, can I buy you a coffee?" And most of 'em were really kind. The design community is amazing. And, uh, they said yes, and then from there, was able to learn from them, show them Figma, get their feedback. And, uh, I, I think it started, honestly, more as like a me fanboying, me getting feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky 32:28 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 32:29 I mean, one example is Tim Van Damme. Uh, you know, I've, I saw him on Dribbble, you know, Max Valtara. I'm like, "Oh my God, this guy is just a genius." These icons are incredible. Like, I, I think, um, the first time I met Tim was at Dropbox, and, uh, like, I had this total fanboy moment. I'm like, "I've been tracing your icons."

Lenny Rachitsky 32:50 (laughs)

Dylan Field 32:51 It's like, "Hi." (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 32:54 (laughs)

Dylan Field 32:54 Um, and, uh, I had been working on vector networks with, with the team-

Lenny Rachitsky 32:58 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 32:58 ... and, uh, my y- my test cases were, like, a lot of his icons.

Lenny Rachitsky 33:03 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 33:04 Um, and, uh... 'cause they were just, like, beautiful, and I liked looking at them and studying them. And, you know, to now have Tim on the team and have him, like, doing the icons for UI3 is, like, such an honor and, like, privilege to work with someone of that craft.

Lenny Rachitsky 33:18 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 33:19 Uh, but yeah. Um, so reachin' out to your heroes sometimes works.

Lenny Rachitsky 33:24 It's interesting, 'cause when people hear that story, when I've heard that story many times, it was always like, "Here's a growth hack. Find the most influential people in your field. Go try, try to convince them to use your product." And the way you're describing it is you were using it more as feedback. "I just wanna show you the product, get your feedback, make this better," and then ended up working. They're like, "Oh, I love Figma, I'm gonna use it."

Dylan Field 33:43 Well, I think it especially works for designers that way, 'cause designers are really good at giving feedback. Like, it turns out (laughs) that not everyone is good at giving feedback. Uh, but yeah, designers are, are awesome at that, so we're really lucky. And I mean, literally, you know, early on in Figma's existence, folks... Uh, I, I think Payam Rajabi is here somewhere. Uh, I'm not sure if he's in this room, but, um, I was hoping to see him before the end of Config. You know, Payam wrote, like, a very long doc for us about all the things that he wanted to see in Figma, uh, after we did like a, a user research study with him-

Lenny Rachitsky 34:14 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 34:15 ... um, with a bottle of wine, because our, our text editing didn't work very well then. (laughs) So I ran 'em through the user study, and knew we'd need a bottle of wine to finish, and it took like hours 'cause the type of sentence in Figma was so slow.

Lenny Rachitsky 34:26 Hmm. That reminds me of a, a story I've heard, where, uh, your f-... one of your first customers was Coda.

Dylan Field 34:32 Mm-hmm.

Lenny Rachitsky 34:32 Sponsor, I think, of Config. Uh, used to be called Crypton. Uh, and there's a story where you installed Figma, you helped them get set up, you drove home, and then they called you like, "Hey, Figma's not working anymore," and you drove back, like yourself, to help fix them, and it tur-... ended up their wifi was down, right? Or there was a wifi issue. Is that the story?

Dylan Field 34:52 (laughs) I don't remember what the solution was-

Lenny Rachitsky 34:54 Okay.

Dylan Field 34:54 ... but, uh, uh-

Lenny Rachitsky 34:54 That's what I heard.

Dylan Field 34:55 But yeah, it was like, we were like halfway home, uh, and, uh, somehow I saw, uh, I'm sure I was not looking at my email while driving. Uh-

Lenny Rachitsky 35:04 (laughs)

Dylan Field 35:05 Definitely is not something anyone here should do. Uh, but yeah, somehow I found out that, that they were... had an issue, and we turned the car around. Yeah.

Lenny Rachitsky 35:15 And I think-

Dylan Field 35:15 They were, um... Shishir is amazing, by the way, and like, has been a mentor for a long time to me and many people on our team. And, uh, he, I, I think, at the time, did not know he was the first customer.

Lenny Rachitsky 35:27 (laughs)

Dylan Field 35:27 And later on, uh, he came over to Figma's office, and I introduced him without really thinking about that. And I was like, "Yeah, this is Shishir. He's the first... You know, his team was the, really the first user of Figma, as a team." Uh, and he goes, "Wait a second, I am?" (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 35:45 (laughs) Amazing. Okay. I wanna talk about something totally different.

Lenny Rachitsky 35:50 Something I've noticed you are good at is you spot trends ahead of other people. So obviously, WebGL you were on early, and that's what allowed Figma to exist, building it in the browser. Uh, I saw you tweeting about CryptoPunks way before they were worth millions of dollars. You're just like, "I like CryptoPunks. Look, I got a few. They're really, really cool. They're super cool." Little pipe. Um, I'm curious if there's anything these days that you're really excited about, that might become bigger in the future.

Dylan Field 36:15 Yeah. Well, we talked about WebAssembly. I, I mean, I, I... We were just talking about them backstage, and, uh, and I think... and before this conversation too.

Lenny Rachitsky 36:23 Yeah.

Dylan Field 36:23 Um-

Lenny Rachitsky 36:23 Talk about WebAssembly.

Dylan Field 36:24 And, uh, that's an example of something where it's so interesting, 'cause it's like there's a generat- generative UI component, and yet it's not what we're going for for Figma. It's totally different. Um-So, we actually invest in WebSim wi- with, uh, Figma Ventures.

Lenny Rachitsky 36:39 Amazing. Maybe explain what WebSim is for folks that-

Dylan Field 36:41 Yeah. WebSim is like a, um, hallucinated internet, basically. If you go to websim.ai, uh, you can use different models like Claude or GPT, uh, 4.0, uh, and you can do that either through their defaults or you can use Open Router to get, like, a bigger context window. And the more that you use it, the more you construct this context window of this almost universe that you're building up in WebSim. And as you do it, uh, it's almost like you're world-building. And, uh, I just have, like, gone deep and geeked out on this, uh, when I've had time, and they've evolved the platform a lot, so... Like, we were back there and they were showing me some new functionality that's really cool too.

Lenny Rachitsky 37:25 Amazing.

Dylan Field 37:25 Um, but, uh, but yeah, it's, I think, so interesting to, to see this like this, like, almost lean forward entertainment tool-

Lenny Rachitsky 37:32 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 37:33 ... uh, using the internet.

Lenny Rachitsky 37:36 So, I thought you would answer this. And so, we're gonna have a picture come up here that I, I tried WebSim and played around with it, and hopefully a photo comes up somewhere. Okay, so this is... So, all I typed here was-

Dylan Field 37:48 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 37:48 ... gmail.com/dylanfield.

Dylan Field 37:50 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 37:50 So this is in an invented Gmail, just came up with this using AI, of what your inbox should look like, and it looks pretty accurate. I don't know, there's like Adobe stuff.

Dylan Field 37:59 Uh, there's DOJ, non-FTC.

Lenny Rachitsky 38:00 Financial.

Dylan Field 38:01 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 38:02 This is not actual information. Nobody buy stock based on this.

Dylan Field 38:07 (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 38:08 So, it's pretty cool.

Dylan Field 38:09 No comment on 75% year over year.

Lenny Rachitsky 38:12 (laughs) Yeah. So, like, the way it works-

Dylan Field 38:14 That's funny. I had never tried Gmail before.

Lenny Rachitsky 38:16 Yeah. Did you do-

Dylan Field 38:16 Did you try U? What was your inbox like?

Lenny Rachitsky 38:18 I didn't do B. I, I don't think it would have anything, if you-

Dylan Field 38:20 I bet it does.

Lenny Rachitsky 38:21 Who are you? Who are you? Uh, so yeah, the way it works is just you type a URL or a prompt in the URL field, and it'll just invent what that website looks like. It's, it's hilarious.

Dylan Field 38:29 It's awesome.

Lenny Rachitsky 38:30 It's awesome. So, I think they're gonna get a lot of traffic right now.

Dylan Field 38:32 One time we, um, someone posted in our random channel on Slack, they said, "I had a dream last night." It's always a good start for the random channel.

Lenny Rachitsky 38:42 (laughs)

Dylan Field 38:43 "Sou I had a dream last night that I was working on, uh, uh, FigJam, but it wasn't FigJam, it was FrogJam."

Lenny Rachitsky 38:51 (laughs)

Dylan Field 38:52 And so I, uh, I (laughs) ... and WebSim was like figma.com/frogjam. Uh, and it came up with a whole marketing website, complete with, like, toad puns-

Lenny Rachitsky 39:05 (laughs)

Dylan Field 39:06 ... for FrogJam. The sticky notes were lily pads-

Lenny Rachitsky 39:10 (laughs)

Dylan Field 39:11 ... and you were supposed to... Like, it had this whole metaphor of hopping from lily pad to lily pad to generate new ideas.

Lenny Rachitsky 39:17 Genius.

Dylan Field 39:17 Awesome. This is genius.

Lenny Rachitsky 39:19 Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky 39:20 So, interestingly, before Figma, your only other job was an intern at three different companies, and now you're leading this juggernaut of a business, 1,000 plus people. I imagine there's a lot you've had to learn over this time. So, I'm not gonna ask you what you've learned, because I think it's probably a lot. I'm curious just what has most helped you scale and learn? Is it exec coaches? Is it CEO friends? Is it hiring execs? Like, what's most helped you scale with the business and become the leader you are today?

Dylan Field 39:52 I, I think all of the above. Um, and also just having, like, a mindset of you have to constantly adapt and, uh, grow and change and adapt. Um, but yeah, I would say that mentors can come from anywhere. It can come from-

Lenny Rachitsky 40:05 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 40:05 ... the community, all of you. Uh, mentorship can come from the people you hire. It can come from, you know, folks that you actively seek out as investors or, uh, or explicit mentorship, uh, and mentors. Um, it can come from people that, that call themselves coaches, like, uh... And, you know, what's interesting too is it can come from people you mentor as well.

Lenny Rachitsky 40:26 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 40:26 Like, there have been plenty of people where, uh, they ask me a question at some point and I give them an answer and they think it's insightful for whatever reason. And then years later, we're, we're talking again, and I ask them a question and they're like, "Well, years ago, you told me..." (laughs) And they, like, repeat back what I told them, like, "That's a really good point." (laughs)

Lenny Rachitsky 40:44 (laughs)

Dylan Field 40:45 Uh, or they've grown and they've changed and they've learned, and they tell me something completely different, they give me a new framework. And so I think that, uh, when you're... Yeah, like, a lot of times, when I talk with new founders, they teach me things that are, are totally things that I've just never, never thought about. Or, or interns at Figma have been mentors to me in many ways. So, it... You really have to have a learning mindset and just always be ready to absorb new information, I think.

Lenny Rachitsky 41:09 When you were just tinkering around with Figma 12 years ago, I think, at this point, did you ever imagine you'd be running a thousand-person company, an audience just spellbound by what you're building? There's, like, people lining up to take photos with your logo in the lobby. Like, that doesn't happen. That's very rare. Uh, just to give you a chance to reflect on just how it feels to have built that over time. How does, how does that feel sitting here right now?

Dylan Field 41:32 Well, I feel very, very lucky, but also very humbled by just the community that is around Figma. I mean, I, I mentioned in the keynote, but just, like, the people that are in the Figma community are the people that are shaping the world's technology. And the chance to, to serve them and to make software for them and hopefully improve their life in some little way, uh, is such a privilege. It's a responsibility, uh, and one I don't take lightly, but also I try not to, like, carry that as a weight-

Lenny Rachitsky 42:03 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 42:03 ... but rather as, like, pump me up and, uh, and get me excited to go build for them. So...

Lenny Rachitsky 42:10 Yeah. When we were talking about this idea earlier, the, you, you... Like, the first thing you said is it's a responsibility, which I didn't expect. Is there anything more there or just like, "Wow, I really have to help make this-"

Dylan Field 42:19 Well, again, it's, you know, going back to the simplification, uh, point, you know, it's, it's very important that we continue to make Figma more and more simple. We make Figma th- as powerful as we can for the people that are in our community, uh, that we figure out what people's needs truly are, um, and that we advance the state of the craft and make it so that we do that in a responsible way. Uh-... and, and that we champion design, and, and champion quality. So, we're trying to do all those things. We, sometimes mess up, but people have been very patient with us, and we're very thankful for that. And thankful for the support of just everyone, uh, here, and, uh, and in our community that, that are giving us a chance to, to make this impact.

Lenny Rachitsky 43:06 Is there anything else you wanna... Oh, yeah, there's some applause. (audience clapping) Love that.

Dylan Field 43:11 Thank you.

Lenny Rachitsky 43:15 Applause break.

Lenny Rachitsky 43:16 Is there anything else you wanna share? Anything else you wanna leave listeners with before we get to our very ex- very lightning round, very quick lightning round?

Dylan Field 43:22 (laughs) Um, well, no, I just, I, I think one thing I'll share is, uh, I think we're so early on this journey of computing in general, um, and in our lifetimes, we're gonna have the chance to just build such incredible technology and incredible products. And I'm really excited to see what everyone in this room builds, but, uh, also this, everyone on the internet that's listening maybe, also builds. Uh, and send me cool stuff. So, if you s- you build something cool, like, message me somewhere, and, uh, and share it with me.

Lenny Rachitsky 43:56 What's the best way to message you?

Dylan Field 43:58 Uh... (audience laughing) Email's good. Uh, you can probably figure out my email if you-

Lenny Rachitsky 44:02 Just use your website?

Dylan Field 44:03 ... work with it for, like, five seconds. Or use WebSim. Uh, (laughs) and, uh, uh, Twitter/X is good. Uh, those are two places, at least, you can find me.

Lenny Rachitsky 44:12 Amazing. Dylan, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. We only have a couple minutes left. (bell dinging)

Dylan Field 44:16 Okay.

Lenny Rachitsky 44:16 It's a very short one. Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love, other than WebSim?

Dylan Field 44:21 Hmm. Um... Well, I will say that, uh, it's not like a favorite product, but I will say that, um, if you get, like, i- um, not to... I- I- I- I- I'm trying to... (audience laughing) Hesitating if I should say this or not. (audience laughing)

Lenny Rachitsky 44:44 We'll cut it out in post, don't worry about it.

Dylan Field 44:46 (laughs) (audience laughing) It's so fas- I'll say this. It's so fascinating to look at all the different LMs out there right now.

Lenny Rachitsky 44:57 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 44:57 And what each one is uniquely good at. And it's really fun, if you can hack them the right way and get them in the right mood, what they'll do. That's what I'll say.

Lenny Rachitsky 45:07 Whoa. What does that mean? (audience laughing) Okay.

Dylan Field 45:11 It's my diplomatic answer.

Lenny Rachitsky 45:13 Okay. Interesting. Okay. Uh, do you have a favorite life motto that you come back to, repeat to yourself, share with friends or family that you find really useful?

Dylan Field 45:22 Hmm. I don't know if I've got a, like, life motto, but one piece of advice I've always appreciated is when people give you advice, they're not giving you advice. They're giving themselves advice in your shoes.

Lenny Rachitsky 45:33 Mm-hmm.

Dylan Field 45:33 Uh, and I think that's, like, a interesting one. So if I gave you advice here, um, I'd be giving myself advice in your shoes.

Lenny Rachitsky 45:39 Hmm. Final question. Not many people know this, but you were a, you were an actor, a child actor, when you were five years old. (audience cooing) Do you think you made the right career move? Do you feel like you sometimes regret acting?

Dylan Field 45:53 (audience laughing) Uh, (laughs) yeah, definitely. Um, (laughs) , uh, uh, that's my mom. (laughs) (audience laughing) Uh, my mom's in the audience, and she says, "Yes." (laughs) (audience laughing) Uh, no, I mean, like, like, we've been talking about product. Uh, if you're an actor, you're a product in some way. And, um, that's not to disparage actors. Actors are awesome. Acting is awesome. I loved it. But, uh, my differentiators when I was five, uh, five and a half, I think, was that I could, uh, I could read and I could sit still, and I was decently cute. (audience laughing) Um, then I hit puberty, and those things were no longer differentiators. (audience laughing) And, uh, uh, then it was like, "Let's, let's do some computer science." (audience laughing)

Lenny Rachitsky 46:38 So to close, we're gonna play a... Oh, yeah, applause. (audience clapping) Uh, we're gonna play a clip, something I found on YouTube to close. And, uh, enjoy. 30 seconds clip. (gentle music) (birds chirping) (waves crashing) (woman humming) Where will you find a world of ideas for your child? Only at eToys. From Barbie to Brio to Swimways. (water splashing) eToys, where great ideas come to you.

Dylan Field 47:24 That was a good find. (laughs) (audience clapping)

Lenny Rachitsky 47:25 Thank you. Dylan, thank you so much for doing this.

Dylan Field 47:28 Thank you. I, could I make one comment about that commercial?

Lenny Rachitsky 47:31 Okay, one comment.

Dylan Field 47:32 Okay, one comment before we end. That commercial made that company go bankrupt. (audience laughing) Thank you all for joining. (laughs) Thank you for having me, Lenny. (audience clapping)

Lenny Rachitsky 47:40 Good list. Thanks, Dylan. Bye, everyone. (gentle music) Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.