Dylan Field live at Figma's Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design

1. 0:00 – 1:11

   Introduction

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky0:00

      (instrumental music) Today, I'm excited to bring you a very special episode which was recorded live at Figma Config with Figma CEO and co-founder, Dillon Field, in front of a live audience at the Moscone Center in San Francisco. This is the first ever live recording of this podcast, and it was so much fun. If you watch this on YouTube, you can see the epic stage that they built specifically for us to recreate my podcast studio. I could not be more thankful to the Config team for making this happen. In my conversation with Dillon, we dig into how he builds and refines his product taste and intuition, how intuition is a hypothesis generator, the future of product management, how Dillon attempts to operationalize keeping Figma simple and to continue simplifying the experience, a bunch of stories from the early days of Figma that I've never heard before. Also, he shares his favorite AI tool called WebSim, which is wild. And if you wait till the very end, you can see a very young child actor Dillon Field in a clip that I found online that was hilarious. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring Dillon

2. 1:11 – 2:36

   Welcoming Dylan Field

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:11

      Field. Dillon, thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the podcast.

   2. DFDylan Field1:16

      Thank you, Lenny. (laughs) Hi, all.

   3. NANarrator1:21

      (cheering)

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:21

      Uh, is this... Is this your first live podcast?

   5. DFDylan Field1:24

      This is my first ever live podcast. Also, uh, a big thank you to the Config team who set up this crazy studio. I had no idea this was gonna happen. I feel like I'm in my studio here with a thousand people watching us. Uh, it's very impressive.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:36

      I, I very much dig the background and also the mics that may or may not be wired.

   7. DFDylan Field1:40

      That's right. Don't, don't say that. Don't tell people.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:42

      Oh, sorry. (laughs)

   9. DFDylan Field1:44

      There's no wires coming out of them.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:45

       There's no one behind the curtain either. (laughs)

   11. DFDylan Field1:48

       Okay. So, Dillon, I wanna start by just checking in on how you're doing. So Config is about to wrap up. We... You've been at it for two days now. Uh-huh. I know how much lift goes into doing these sorts of things. I imagine you've been thinking about this for a long time now. I'm just curious how you're doing. Any surprises? Any highlights? Any lowlights? Uh, the highlight is the community and just the incredible, incredible people here at Config. Yeah. Y'all are awesome. (cheering) I don't know why I keep talking in the mic like this. (laughs)

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky2:19

       (laughs)

   13. DFDylan Field2:19

       It's instinctual (laughs) . Um, but seriously, it's just the most amazing community to be part of. And, uh, I, I feel so lucky. And then, um, in terms of how I'm doing in this exact moment-

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky2:30

       Yeah.

   15. DFDylan Field2:30

       ... like exhausted, but riding on caffeine and whatever this, like, really cool probiotic drink is.

   16. NANarrator2:35

       (laughs)

3. 2:36 – 6:58

   Highlights and surprises from Config

   1. NANarrator2:36

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky2:36

      Any surprises from the past couple of days? Anything that's like, "Oh, wow, that went a lot better than I thought," maybe less well?

   3. DFDylan Field2:42

      Um, yeah. I mean, like, you know, demo, uh, definitely things I would have improved.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky2:47

      (laughs)

   5. DFDylan Field2:48

      Uh, but also, like the, uh, Emile and Mahika were phenomenal. Uh, and it was, it was just like so awesome to see them do their demos and, uh, present materials. And then, um, yeah, I was just really pleased with the conversation, I think, that's getting started at Config around AI. Um, and, uh, I think that... You know, I was looking online, um, on social media, and I think people are already kind of like zeroing in the right conversation, which is-

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky3:16

      Yeah.

   7. DFDylan Field3:16

      ... okay, in a world of, you know, more software being created by AI, what does that mean? And, you know, the impact on craft and the impact on quality and the, uh, need to have more unique design-

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky3:35

      Mm-hmm.

   9. DFDylan Field3:36

      ... and how design is a differentiator, and I think some people are saying, "I agree with that." Some people are saying, "I disagree with that," and that's exactly the bounds of, um, what the conversation I kind of imagined would emerge, uh, from yesterday.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky3:49

       Mm-hmm.

   11. DFDylan Field3:49

       Um, you know, it's funny. The Make design feature, you know, we... Uh, I think I said on the keynote, I was like, "This is gonna give you the most obvious thing in the most obvious form possible." And then people online were like, "It's just gonna give you some obvious thing."

   12. NANarrator4:05

       (laughs)

   13. DFDylan Field4:07

       I agree. (laughs)

   14. NANarrator4:09

       (laughs)

   15. LRLenny Rachitsky4:10

       (instrumental music) This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning. That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app. Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features. Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know, like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom. WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service. Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube. This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases. If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM, or user management, you should consider WorkOS. It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to one million monthly active users for free. Check it out at workos.com to learn more. That's workos.com. This episode is brought to you by Anvil. Their document SDK helps product teams build and launch software for documents fast. Companies like Carta and Vouch Insurance use Anvil to accelerate the development of their document workflows. Getting to market fast is a top priority for product teams. And the last thing that you or your developers want is to build document workflows from scratch. It's time-consuming, expensive, and distracts from core work. You could stitch together multiple tools and manage those integrations, or you can use an all-in-one document SDK. Most product managers will tell you, "Paperwork sucks."Anvil's document SDK helps teams get to market fast, incorporate your brand style, and give you back time to focus on your company's core differentiated features. For your users, paperwork often starts with an AI-powered web form, styled and embedded in your application. From there, you can route data to your backend systems and to the correct fields in your PDFs via API. Complete the process with a white-labeled e-signature. The best part about Anvil is the level of customization their SDK provides. Non-technical folks love Anvil's drag-and-drop builder, and developers love their flexible APIs and easy-to-understand documentation. Build document software fast with Anvil. That's useanvil.com/lenny to learn more or start a free trial. That's useanvil.com/lenny. Let's

4. 6:58 – 8:01

   The philosophy of design

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky6:58

      keep talking about design. You once said that the definition of design is art applied to problem-solving. Can you just add a bit more to that? What do you mean by that? 'Cause that's an amazing line.

   2. DFDylan Field7:09

      Well, I, I don't think it's my original line.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky7:11

      Mm.

   4. DFDylan Field7:11

      I think someone else said it, but, um, there's a lot of definitions of design out there too. I mean, there's also design as dialogue or design as problem-solving. You could just go straight there. Um, y- I could go with, like, 10 more, but, uh-

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky7:22

      (laughs)

   6. DFDylan Field7:22

      ... uh, but yeah, I like, I like art apri- applied to problem-solving because I think that, um, design is often, uh, there is some component of creativity to it and unique expression that you're trying to provide and create and put out into the world, but you are also trying to do it and match it to a user need, a problem that needs to be solved. And, uh, I, I think that, um, it's not pure art, and if you, but if you lose the art and you're just solving the problem, like, it's totally utilitarian and it has, um, it, it lacks soul. And so the combination of those two things, uh, is,

5. 8:01 – 9:57

   Raccoon feet and muffin hands

   1. DFDylan Field8:01

      to me, really beautiful.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky8:02

      I'm gonna pivot to a very hard-hitting question. I hope your PR people don't kill me for asking you this.

   3. DFDylan Field8:07

      (laughs)

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky8:07

      Many people asked me to ask you this question.

   5. DFDylan Field8:09

      Okay.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky8:09

      Very important. Please explain a Figma tradition called raccoon feet and muffin hands.

   7. DFDylan Field8:15

      (laughs) Okay, um... (laughs) I, I should probably just leave this interview now.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky8:22

      (laughs)

   9. DFDylan Field8:22

      No, um, uh, okay, so, uh, this is a, a co- a conversation, I'm not sure exactly where it started, but it was started early at Figma, and basically we had these, um, lunch tables at Figma where we would just kinda all gather and have very long, interesting, meandering conversations before we got back to work. And, uh, one of the questions that was a would you rather was, "Would you rather have raccoons for feet-"

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky8:45

       Hmm.

   11. DFDylan Field8:46

       "... or muffins for hands?" And I, I think this is, this is a deeply philosophical question.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky8:52

       (laughs)

   13. DFDylan Field8:53

       Uh, I have pondered it, uh, since I've heard it. I still don't have, uh, one answer. If you've got an answer, I'm-

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky9:01

       Uh.

   15. DFDylan Field9:01

       ... curious what it is.

   16. LRLenny Rachitsky9:02

       I've got follow-up questions. Are the, uh-

   17. DFDylan Field9:03

       (clears throat)

   18. LRLenny Rachitsky9:04

       ... do the raccoon, uh, can you control where the raccoon take you, or are they just deciding on their own what's happening?

   19. DFDylan Field9:09

       Uh, I think that raccoons, um, probably wouldn't even agree with each other where to go.

   20. LRLenny Rachitsky9:13

       Okay, that's complicated. Uh...

   21. DFDylan Field9:16

       I mean, if, if you had raccoons for feet right now, do you think that it would interfere with this podcast?

   22. LRLenny Rachitsky9:21

       But, uh, muffin hands would also interfere with my newsletter, and I feel-

   23. DFDylan Field9:23

       That's right.

   24. LRLenny Rachitsky9:24

       ... like I'd be out of work. I don't know if you can type. I need a special keyboard. Okay, this is very difficult.

   25. DFDylan Field9:29

       You haven't even talked about the upsides to this yet. (laughs)

   26. LRLenny Rachitsky9:32

       (laughs) Yeah. What are the upsides?

   27. DFDylan Field9:34

       Uh, we could get there. It's o- but then-

   28. LRLenny Rachitsky9:36

       Maybe you could eat some of the muffin-

   29. DFDylan Field9:36

       There's a case for optimism.

   30. LRLenny Rachitsky9:37

       ... cupcakes?
6. 9:57 – 12:50

   Building and refining intuition and product taste

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky9:57

      Okay, um-

   2. DFDylan Field9:58

      (laughs)

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky9:58

      ... I'm gonna play a short clip with Rick Rubin, and then I have a question about it.

   4. DFDylan Field10:02

      Okay.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky10:03

      So we'll see if that plays.

   6. NANarrator10:04

      (instrumental music playing) But exactly what he does and how is difficult to describe. Do you play instruments? Barely. Do you know how to work a soundboard? No. I have no technical ability, and I know nothing about music. (laughs) You must know something. Well, I know what I like and what I don't like, and I'm, I'm decisive about what I like and what I don't like. So what are you being paid for? The confidence that I have in my taste and my ability to express what I feel has proven helpful for artists.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky10:44

      Okay, so I'm not gonna say this is you. (laughs)

   8. DFDylan Field10:48

      (laughs) Need to grow the beard. (laughs)

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky10:50

      But I think this is a little bit you, because what I've heard from a number of your colleagues is that one of your superpowers is intuition and product taste, and someone said that you have the sixth sense for what's gonna work when you're designing Figma and you're making decisions in the product. So I'm curious how you've built and refined your intuition and product taste when it comes to Figma and then even broadly.

   10. DFDylan Field11:12

       W- that's a lot kinder than I thought you were gonna be.

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky11:14

       (laughs)

   12. DFDylan Field11:15

       I thought you were gonna be like, "You don't know how to code, and you don't know how to design."

   13. LRLenny Rachitsky11:17

       No.

   14. DFDylan Field11:18

       (laughs) Um, but, um, uh, no, I, I, I mean, I, I think, um, the, here's my framework for it. I think intuition is like a hypothesis generator, and, uh, you're constantly generating these hypotheses, and others are generating hypotheses as well. And you then take these hypotheses and you put them forward, and you debate them, and you try to find data to support them or negate them, and then you whittle it down into, like, what is our working hypothesis? And from that, uh, you move forward.

   15. LRLenny Rachitsky11:48

       I heard that you read every tweet that mentions Figma and share them with folks, and there's a Slack channel where you paste them. I imagine that is a part of this, where you're just constantly watching what people are saying about Figma, what people are complaining about?

   16. DFDylan Field12:00

       I mean, I, I, uh, yeah, I, I definitely look everywhere, um, trying to constantly ingest information about Figma, uh, and it's not just, like, Twitter/X, whatever that's called now.

   17. LRLenny Rachitsky12:12

       (laughs)

   18. DFDylan Field12:12

       Uh, but...... you know, anywhere on the internet, support channels, et cetera. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm always trying to understand... I also ask a lot of questions, um, and I try to get to root problems and understand where people are coming from and what are they actually trying to solve. Uh, sometimes people are, are saying, "Hey, I need X," but they really want Y or Z.

   19. LRLenny Rachitsky12:39

       Hmm.

   20. DFDylan Field12:39

       And, you know, trying to do that myself and kind of engage and dive deeper there, but also to encourage our team to do that, uh, I think leads to, you know, really good outcomes in terms of what we

7. 12:50 – 16:14

   How to influence leadership

   1. DFDylan Field12:50

      ship.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky12:51

      Uh, is there something you've changed your mind about? Kind of building on that. Uh, either based on customer feedback or some employee just, like, making a case and, like, "Okay, you're right." Is there something that comes to mind of something you've changed your mind about recently?

   3. DFDylan Field13:04

      Um-

   4. NANarrator13:05

      Slides.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky13:05

      (laughs)

   6. DFDylan Field13:06

      (laughs)

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky13:07

      Somebody said, "Slides."

   8. DFDylan Field13:07

      Someone shouted out, "Slides." Uh, I have not.

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky13:10

      (laughs)

   10. DFDylan Field13:10

       Uh, it's Figma slides. Um-

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky13:13

       (laughs)

   12. NANarrator13:14

       (laughs)

   13. DFDylan Field13:15

       I... Well, it's not recent, but, like, one good example of me changing my mind, uh, is that y'all have pages in Figma. You're welcome.

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky13:22

       (laughs)

   15. DFDylan Field13:22

       Um, but, like, I, I think I have deep skepticism about pages still. Like, I'm not, I'm not sure they're like... If you could freeze time and I could just go and, with my team, work on Figma for a very long time, um, I'm not sure we'd come to the same implementation of pages that we are at today.

   16. LRLenny Rachitsky13:44

       Hmm.

   17. DFDylan Field13:45

       Uh, I, I, I just don't think it's, like, the most elegant solution in the context of, like, the entire system of product design that you could create. The world told me and our team that that did not matter and they needed pages (laughs) . And don't worry, we're not unshipping pages.

   18. NANarrator14:01

       (laughs)

   19. DFDylan Field14:02

       Uh, but, but, yeah, I, I'm, I'm still very skeptical of them. Uh, and I think that, in general, p- probably my team would tell you that, um, I don't always change my mind, but I also, uh, I, like, build trust with people in deep ways. And I think across our organization, if things are not gonna be fatal, then if I hear from someone, "Hey, I really think we should do X," then I'll say, "Okay, just go with it. And here are my, here's my feedback. Here's what I'm skeptical of. Let's see what happens."

   20. LRLenny Rachitsky14:43

       Yeah.

   21. DFDylan Field14:43

       And then, you know, sometimes they come back to me and they're like, "See, I was right." But-

   22. LRLenny Rachitsky14:47

       (laughs)

   23. DFDylan Field14:47

       But usually they're pretty polite about it.

   24. NANarrator14:49

       (laughs)

   25. LRLenny Rachitsky14:49

       Just to, just to build on that. Something a lot of people, uh, try to work on is being good at influencing leadership, exec CEOs. What do you find helps you... help- works to change your mind? What do people come to you with that helps you like, "Okay, you're actually right"?

   26. DFDylan Field15:05

       I think the more concrete an artifact is or the more you can debate something, the better.

   27. LRLenny Rachitsky15:09

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DFDylan Field15:10

       Uh, I, like, ask for examples a lot. I try to ask follow-up questions about things, um, and make sure I fully understand it. And I think, uh, where I get stuck sometimes is if I, like, ask follow-up questions and we don't have answers yet. And then my response might be, "Let's go find the answer to these questions, and then let's go back to this conversation-"

   29. LRLenny Rachitsky15:32

       Mm-hmm.

   30. DFDylan Field15:33

       ... if I think it's something that's really important. And I think for some people they might go, "Okay, this is actually really obvious. Like, I can't believe you're so dense and you don't get it yet."
8. 16:14 – 21:12

   The role of product managers

   1. DFDylan Field16:15

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky16:15

      Okay, so kind of following up on that. Let's talk about product management.

   3. DFDylan Field16:17

      Okay.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky16:19

      So last year you had Brian Chesky here. I think maybe on this stage, maybe a bigger stage. And he, he kind of said that they got rid of product management at Airbnb, and everyone cheered and all the PMs were very sad.

   5. NANarrator16:29

      (laughs)

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky16:30

      And he didn't actually mean they got rid of product management. They changed the function and evolved it.

   7. DFDylan Field16:34

      (laughs)

   8. NANarrator16:35

      (laughs)

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky16:35

      I'm curious just to get your take.

   10. NANarrator16:37

       (laughs)

   11. DFDylan Field16:37

       Yeah.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky16:38

       It's funny. Um-

   13. DFDylan Field16:40

       This is why we have you here, Lenny, so, you know. It's your answer, no? (laughs)

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky16:43

       Yeah, I had him on the podcast-

   15. DFDylan Field16:44

       It's important after all. Surprise! (laughs)

   16. LRLenny Rachitsky16:45

       We're still here. We're still here.

   17. DFDylan Field16:47

       (laughs)

   18. LRLenny Rachitsky16:47

       Um, I wanna get your take on product management. Uh, you all have amazing product managers at Figma. I've had three of them on the podcast already. I'm curious just what value you find the best product managers bring to Figma.

   19. DFDylan Field17:01

       It was really funny. Uh, last year after that interview, so Yuki, uh, our chief product officer-

   20. LRLenny Rachitsky17:08

       (laughs)

   21. DFDylan Field17:08

       ... had invited me to a dinner, uh, for our PM team. And, you know, it took a while to get out of config, uh, at the end of the day. And I, uh, I eventually made it to the dinner, but I was like 40 minutes late. And I walk in, and Mahika, uh, who was on stage yesterday presenting sl- uh, slides, Figma slides.

   22. NANarrator17:30

       (laughs)

   23. LRLenny Rachitsky17:31

       Slide, slides. Uh...

   24. DFDylan Field17:34

       Uh, she was, she was like standing up and doing a mock, uh, Brian Chesky impersonation.

   25. NANarrator17:41

       (laughs)

   26. DFDylan Field17:42

       And she, she's like standing up in front of the entire product team and she goes, "And then Brian Chesky's like, 'There don't need to be any PMs.' And Dylan's like, 'Ooh.'"

   27. NANarrator17:51

       (laughs)

   28. DFDylan Field17:52

       And I'm like, "Hi, Mahika." (laughs)

   29. NANarrator17:55

       (laughs)

   30. DFDylan Field17:55

       And, you know, I'd never seen her so red. Uh. (laughs)
9. 21:12 – 22:20

   The future of product management

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky21:12

      along those lines. Are you bearish or bullish on the future of product management? Do you think PMs will continue the way they are? Do you think PMs will dwindle? Any sense of the future of product management?

   2. DFDylan Field21:23

      Um, I, I think probably everyone's learning to do a bit more of everyone else's job in this current moment. Uh, that said, I definitely think there's still immense value, uh, in product, immense value in design, immense value in engineering, and so I think those roles will continue to exist.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky21:43

      So maybe just, I just wanna come back to the question of just the, what the best PMs that you work with, do you find, what value do they most bring? I guess, is there anything that's like, here's, what would be gone if we didn't have these PMs?

   4. DFDylan Field21:57

      The best PMs, I think, uh, again, create those frameworks that bring everyone else along, and those frameworks also have a point of view and a strategy associated with them.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky22:07

      Hmm.

   6. DFDylan Field22:07

      So you're able to kind of, like, take the strategy, take the point of view, wrap it all up in a framework, and then make it so that, uh, everyone knows what the destination is and how to, how to get there.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky22:18

      Awesome.

10. 22:20 – 26:10

    The importance of simplicity in design

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky22:20

       Okay, so kind of along these lines, something I've heard you're really big on is simplification. Uh, somebody told me that when you're in des- in a designer view and things just feel too complex to you, uh, quote, "You furrow your brow and insist there must be something simpler." Why is simplification so top of mind for you? Why is it so important for you, and just why is it so hard to do?

    2. DFDylan Field22:41

       Oh, gosh. Um...

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky22:42

       (laughs)

    4. DFDylan Field22:43

       Well, I think probably anyone here who's, like, worked on product knows how hard it is. Uh, it's, I think the, the more that you add, uh, the harder it is to create something that's coherent. Um, you know, the, one, one, uh, essay that Evan, my co-founder, introduced me to early on in Figma's history, uh, I think from, uh, uh, Stevie's Drunken Blog Rants or something like that-

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky23:06

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DFDylan Field23:07

       ... uh, it contains the term irreducible complexity, and it's basically this idea that, like, one plus one does not equal three. It sometimes equals, like, one and a half, uh, and the more that you add and the more that you continue to put in something, um, the more complex it gets and the worse it gets.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky23:24

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DFDylan Field23:25

       And I think this is definitely true for tools. So in the context of Figma, uh, we can make it more powerful, but to do that in a way that's not making it more complex at the same time is extremely hard.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky23:36

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DFDylan Field23:37

        And we have to always be paying attention to how complex or how simple things are, uh, because if we don't, it just kind of becomes a monstrosity really fast. And there's parts of our product that, like, I, I don't wanna dive into that part of the conversation, the self-critique, but, uh, um, definitely, like, as I'm in conversation with a bunch of our product leaders at Figma, there's parts where it's like, "Okay, this thing is too complex as a system," and we made, like, all the right local decisions, and yet together, they're too complex and they're not working anymore, and let's go revisit the system now.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky24:14

        This episode is brought to you by User Testing. Transform how you build products and experiences with User Testing. Get fast feedback throughout the development process so that you can build the right thing the first time.

    12. NANarrator24:27

        Make better decisions that lead to better business outcomes. Companies are being asked to do more with less. They need to move quickly to build experiences that meet changing customer expectations, and do so faster than ever, all while minimizing risk and costly rework. With User Testing, you have a trusted partner in experience research. They empower user research, product, and design teams to make higher confidence decisions with human insights. Learn more today at usertesting.com/lenny.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky24:59

        I know you just redesigned Figma. I imagine part of that came from things are just getting too complicated-

    14. DFDylan Field25:03

        Mm-hmm.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky25:03

        ... not as simple as we want. Is there anything that's been, like, bugging you in the old Figma, but like, "Oh, this is way too complicated. I really wanna simplify this thing."

    16. DFDylan Field25:09

        Yes.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky25:10

        Okay. What's that? (laughs)

    18. DFDylan Field25:12

        (laughs) Uh, (laughs) we'll move on, but I, I-

    19. NANarrator25:14

        (laughs)

    20. DFDylan Field25:15

        ... many things. (laughs)

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky25:17

        Okay. (laughs) Sounds good. Um, okay-

    22. NANarrator25:20

        (laughs)

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky25:20

        And in terms of how to keep things simple, uh, so I had Dharmesh Shaw on the podcast, he's the co-founder of HubSpot.

    24. DFDylan Field25:27

        Yeah.

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky25:27

        And the way he described it is that you're always fighting the second law of thermodynamics-

    26. DFDylan Field25:30

        Mm-hmm.

    27. LRLenny Rachitsky25:31

        ... of entropy, just the product getting more complicated. And he kind of sees, uh, himself as part of the solution is you, top down, you have to, like, be on top of that. Is that the way you see it? Like, that's kind of your role to keep things simple? Do you think people further down the ladder can do that or... I don't know. How do you-

    28. DFDylan Field25:46

        Absolutely. Yeah. Everyone's responsible for simplicity. And I think, another quote that is not mine, but is a really good one is, you know, "Keep the simple things simple. Make the complex things possible." And I think that's a really important, uh, uh, principle to hold-

    29. LRLenny Rachitsky25:59

        Mm-hmm.

    30. DFDylan Field25:59

        ... as you're designing tools.
11. 26:10 – 27:44

    The long road to Figma’s launch

    1. DFDylan Field26:10

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky26:10

       Okay. I wanna pivot to talking about early days Figma.

    3. DFDylan Field26:13

       Sure.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky26:14

       So, I don't know how many people know this, but it took three and a half years to launch Figma from when you were beginning to work on it.

    5. DFDylan Field26:19

       Way too long. Don't do that. (laughs)

    6. NANarrator26:21

       (laughs)

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky26:21

       Okay. This is, this is my question. So, it took three and a half years to launch, and then five years to get your first customer. Uh, Dylan, what the hell were you doing all that time?

    8. NANarrator26:29

       (laughs)

    9. DFDylan Field26:29

       I don't think it took five years for our first... Well, okay, paid... At first, we paid customers-

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky26:33

        Yeah.

    11. DFDylan Field26:34

        Sure. Okay, fine.

    12. NANarrator26:34

        (laughs)

    13. DFDylan Field26:34

        Um, slightly less, but, but yep-

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky26:37

        Okay.

    15. DFDylan Field26:37

        ... approximately five years-

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky26:38

        Close enough.

    17. DFDylan Field26:38

        ... I guess if you round up. Um.

    18. NANarrator26:41

        (laughs)

    19. DFDylan Field26:43

        Uh, I, I mean, I think that, you know, if, if we had, if I had been probably better at hiring and recruiting-

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky26:48

        Mm-hmm.

    21. DFDylan Field26:49

        ... like if Na- I see Nadia in the audience, um, making eye contact with her the entire time for some reason-

    22. NANarrator26:53

        (laughs)

    23. DFDylan Field26:53

        She's our, our chief people officer. If she had been at Figma from day one, we would've hired probably faster, and, uh, and we would, would've gone to market faster. But I think that, um, yeah, it was, it was a hard product, uh, to build and to get everything to come together with. I also see Shou. Um, and, uh, I think for, uh, Shou has joined us as a director of engineering. He's a VP of product now. Again, people can wear many hats. Um, and he was someone that joined Figma and, uh, said, "Hey, y'all need to ship this thing. You're really close."

    24. LRLenny Rachitsky27:31

        (laughs)

    25. DFDylan Field27:32

        Um, and he really helped catalyze us to ship in that moment. And, you know, I think he... In week one, he gave a presentation and was like, "Here's what we gotta do. Here's the gap. Everyone agrees on it. Let's go." So.

12. 27:44 – 29:07

    Advice for aspiring entrepreneurs

    1. DFDylan Field27:45

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky27:45

       Mm-hmm. And so you already said that you wish you shipped earlier. Is there any advice there for just people building something today of just-

    3. DFDylan Field27:49

       Oh, get it out as fast as you possibly can.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky27:51

       Mm-hmm.

    5. DFDylan Field27:52

       Um, eh, like, everything they tell you about, uh, you know, making sure that you get a product out really quickly is totally true. The faster you get it out, the more feedback you get, that is a positive thing. And, um, uh, now I, I index on that when we try to build, and FigJam's a great example of that. We shipped it incredibly fast-

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky28:15

       Mm-hmm.

    7. DFDylan Field28:15

       ... um, and it helped us get to market and get feedback faster. Figma slides, great example of that too. Dev mode, for what it's worth, it took us longer. Uh, we just had to keep iterating and building it, and building it again. Uh, you know, certain directions we tried didn't work out.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky28:32

       Mm-hmm.

    9. DFDylan Field28:32

       And we really had to get to a place where we were able to, um, really believe that we were adding value and really understood the developer as user. And it just didn't happen for a long time. So, it's f- it's interesting because I think people look at dev mode and sometimes they go, "Oh, this is, this is quite simple." To the point about simplicity. Um, you know, Figma, uh, like, like, w- is this, is this, uh, simpler than FigJam? You know, the reality was it took, like, at least three times as long.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky29:02

        Mm-hmm. So you, your advice is ship quickly.

13. 29:07 – 30:39

    Knowing when it’s time to ship

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky29:07

       There's also this kind of push that, that, uh-

    2. DFDylan Field29:09

       Uh, I'd hold a bar for sure.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky29:11

       That's, that's kind of the question I have is there's also a lot of talk of just, like, the, the bar has risen. Uh, you need, especially B2B software, craft is really important. You need... Like, Linear talks a lot about this just, like, the bar is very high for people to switch from something out there. Is there anything... I don't, uh, I don't know. I don't think you'll have, like, here's the answer when you're ready to ship. But just any advice of just, like, here's good enough versus like, no, you should probably wait.

    4. DFDylan Field29:32

       Well, you know, another thing that Evan taught me was that, um, for a new launch, you've got quality, features, deadline, choose two.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky29:39

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DFDylan Field29:40

       And, uh, I think that the beautiful thing about software is you can keep iterating on it. So, it's not like a physical product where you have to always have quality in there, otherwise, it's never gonna have quality. You can ship it with features and deadline, and then improve it iteratively over time. I'm not saying you should always do that. Sometimes you need to at least have a minimum bar of quality for the things you have, and you're gonna ship less features maybe. Uh, so you choose fe- you know, quality and deadline. And sometimes you say, "Actually, here's the minimum feature set, and we're gonna have this quality bar." And you're willing to push it out. But I think you have to know when you're introducing a new thing what it's gonna take, and then, uh, to make that minimally awesome product, but also when you're, um... Yeah, I think that, that, um, when you're iteratively improving it, like, you shouldn't just be focused on the features, you have to focus on the quality too.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky30:33

       Uh, I like this term you used, minimally awesome product.

    8. DFDylan Field30:35

       Yeah.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky30:36

       Love it. Um,

14. 30:39 – 35:50

    Early user acquisition strategies

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky30:39

       the... Okay. So, the way you got your early users for Figma is quite fascinating. I don't know how many people know this story, but you basically wrote a script to scrape Twitter and create a s- a graph of the most influential designers on Twitter, and then you made it your mission to convince them to use Figma and make 'em evangelists. Uh, is there anything more to the story there? And then I have a question about... kind of along those lines.

    2. DFDylan Field30:59

       Yeah. I mean, uh, y- you can't do this anymore, first of all.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky31:02

       (laughs)

    4. DFDylan Field31:02

       Uh, (laughs) because the Twitter API doesn't exist anymore. Um, rest in peace, Twitter API. (laughs)

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky31:09

       (laughs)

    6. DFDylan Field31:09

       Uh, but, um, uh, I mean, look, I was, uh, intern at LinkedIn, and when I was there I saw, uh, some really cool work people had done with Gephi, uh, which was a sort of network visualization tool. And based on that, uh, I thought it'd be interesting to try to, like you said, look at who the, the design network was, who the central nodes were, which you can just run page rank on and see. Uh, and you can do that for other communities too, which I, I've, I have done in the past, uh, just 'cause I'm curious about social network dynamics and-

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky31:40

       Wow.

    8. DFDylan Field31:40

       ... social network analysis. Uh, and, um, and, and you could just, like, do those things back in 2012, 2013, when Figma started. Uh, so yeah, so I, I kinda constructed this list of like, "Here are the most central designers in the graph," but also then I, like, looked at their work, and then the ones that I was really inspired by, and, like, as a total fanboy and someone who, like, wanted to learn as much as I could about design, uh, was inspired by these folks. The ones I was inspired by, I reached out to-

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky32:11

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DFDylan Field32:11

        ... and said, "Hey, can I buy you a coffee?" And most of 'em were really kind. The design community is amazing. And, uh, they said yes, and then from there, was able to learn from them, show them Figma, get their feedback. And, uh, I, I think it started, honestly, more as like a me fanboying, me getting feedback.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky32:28

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DFDylan Field32:29

        I mean, one example is Tim Van Damme. Uh, you know, I've, I saw him on Dribbble, you know, Max Valtara. I'm like, "Oh my God, this guy is just a genius." These icons are incredible. Like, I, I think, um, the first time I met Tim was at Dropbox, and, uh, like, I had this total fanboy moment. I'm like, "I've been tracing your icons."

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky32:50

        (laughs)

    14. DFDylan Field32:51

        It's like, "Hi." (laughs)

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky32:54

        (laughs)

    16. DFDylan Field32:54

        Um, and, uh, I had been working on vector networks with, with the team-

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky32:58

        Mm-hmm.

    18. DFDylan Field32:58

        ... and, uh, my y- my test cases were, like, a lot of his icons.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky33:03

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DFDylan Field33:04

        Um, and, uh... 'cause they were just, like, beautiful, and I liked looking at them and studying them. And, you know, to now have Tim on the team and have him, like, doing the icons for UI3 is, like, such an honor and, like, privilege to work with someone of that craft.

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky33:18

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DFDylan Field33:19

        Uh, but yeah. Um, so reachin' out to your heroes sometimes works.

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky33:24

        It's interesting, 'cause when people hear that story, when I've heard that story many times, it was always like, "Here's a growth hack. Find the most influential people in your field. Go try, try to convince them to use your product." And the way you're describing it is you were using it more as feedback. "I just wanna show you the product, get your feedback, make this better," and then ended up working. They're like, "Oh, I love Figma, I'm gonna use it."

    24. DFDylan Field33:43

        Well, I think it especially works for designers that way, 'cause designers are really good at giving feedback. Like, it turns out (laughs) that not everyone is good at giving feedback. Uh, but yeah, designers are, are awesome at that, so we're really lucky. And I mean, literally, you know, early on in Figma's existence, folks... Uh, I, I think Payam Rajabi is here somewhere. Uh, I'm not sure if he's in this room, but, um, I was hoping to see him before the end of Config. You know, Payam wrote, like, a very long doc for us about all the things that he wanted to see in Figma, uh, after we did like a, a user research study with him-

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky34:14

        Mm-hmm.

    26. DFDylan Field34:15

        ... um, with a bottle of wine, because our, our text editing didn't work very well then. (laughs) So I ran 'em through the user study, and knew we'd need a bottle of wine to finish, and it took like hours 'cause the type of sentence in Figma was so slow.

    27. LRLenny Rachitsky34:26

        Hmm. That reminds me of a, a story I've heard, where, uh, your f-... one of your first customers was Coda.

    28. DFDylan Field34:32

        Mm-hmm.

    29. LRLenny Rachitsky34:32

        Sponsor, I think, of Config. Uh, used to be called Crypton. Uh, and there's a story where you installed Figma, you helped them get set up, you drove home, and then they called you like, "Hey, Figma's not working anymore," and you drove back, like yourself, to help fix them, and it tur-... ended up their wifi was down, right? Or there was a wifi issue. Is that the story?

    30. DFDylan Field34:52

        (laughs) I don't remember what the solution was-
15. 35:50 – 39:20

    Spotting trends and future innovations

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky35:50

       Something I've noticed you are good at is you spot trends ahead of other people. So obviously, WebGL you were on early, and that's what allowed Figma to exist, building it in the browser. Uh, I saw you tweeting about CryptoPunks way before they were worth millions of dollars. You're just like, "I like CryptoPunks. Look, I got a few. They're really, really cool. They're super cool." Little pipe. Um, I'm curious if there's anything these days that you're really excited about, that might become bigger in the future.

    2. DFDylan Field36:15

       Yeah. Well, we talked about WebAssembly. I, I mean, I, I... We were just talking about them backstage, and, uh, and I think... and before this conversation too.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky36:23

       Yeah.

    4. DFDylan Field36:23

       Um-

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky36:23

       Talk about WebAssembly.

    6. DFDylan Field36:24

       And, uh, that's an example of something where it's so interesting, 'cause it's like there's a generat- generative UI component, and yet it's not what we're going for for Figma. It's totally different. Um-So, we actually invest in WebSim wi- with, uh, Figma Ventures.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky36:39

       Amazing. Maybe explain what WebSim is for folks that-

    8. DFDylan Field36:41

       Yeah. WebSim is like a, um, hallucinated internet, basically. If you go to websim.ai, uh, you can use different models like Claude or GPT, uh, 4.0, uh, and you can do that either through their defaults or you can use Open Router to get, like, a bigger context window. And the more that you use it, the more you construct this context window of this almost universe that you're building up in WebSim. And as you do it, uh, it's almost like you're world-building. And, uh, I just have, like, gone deep and geeked out on this, uh, when I've had time, and they've evolved the platform a lot, so... Like, we were back there and they were showing me some new functionality that's really cool too.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky37:25

       Amazing.

    10. DFDylan Field37:25

        Um, but, uh, but yeah, it's, I think, so interesting to, to see this like this, like, almost lean forward entertainment tool-

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky37:32

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DFDylan Field37:33

        ... uh, using the internet.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky37:36

        So, I thought you would answer this. And so, we're gonna have a picture come up here that I, I tried WebSim and played around with it, and hopefully a photo comes up somewhere. Okay, so this is... So, all I typed here was-

    14. DFDylan Field37:48

        (laughs)

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky37:48

        ... gmail.com/dylanfield.

    16. DFDylan Field37:50

        (laughs)

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky37:50

        So this is in an invented Gmail, just came up with this using AI, of what your inbox should look like, and it looks pretty accurate. I don't know, there's like Adobe stuff.

    18. DFDylan Field37:59

        Uh, there's DOJ, non-FTC.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky38:00

        Financial.

    20. DFDylan Field38:01

        (laughs)

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky38:02

        This is not actual information. Nobody buy stock based on this.

    22. DFDylan Field38:07

        (laughs)

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky38:08

        So, it's pretty cool.

    24. DFDylan Field38:09

        No comment on 75% year over year.

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky38:12

        (laughs) Yeah. So, like, the way it works-

    26. DFDylan Field38:14

        That's funny. I had never tried Gmail before.

    27. LRLenny Rachitsky38:16

        Yeah. Did you do-

    28. DFDylan Field38:16

        Did you try U? What was your inbox like?

    29. LRLenny Rachitsky38:18

        I didn't do B. I, I don't think it would have anything, if you-

    30. DFDylan Field38:20

        I bet it does.
16. 39:20 – 43:16

    Reflections on leadership and growth

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky39:20

       So, interestingly, before Figma, your only other job was an intern at three different companies, and now you're leading this juggernaut of a business, 1,000 plus people. I imagine there's a lot you've had to learn over this time. So, I'm not gonna ask you what you've learned, because I think it's probably a lot. I'm curious just what has most helped you scale and learn? Is it exec coaches? Is it CEO friends? Is it hiring execs? Like, what's most helped you scale with the business and become the leader you are today?

    2. DFDylan Field39:52

       I, I think all of the above. Um, and also just having, like, a mindset of you have to constantly adapt and, uh, grow and change and adapt. Um, but yeah, I would say that mentors can come from anywhere. It can come from-

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky40:05

       Mm-hmm.

    4. DFDylan Field40:05

       ... the community, all of you. Uh, mentorship can come from the people you hire. It can come from, you know, folks that you actively seek out as investors or, uh, or explicit mentorship, uh, and mentors. Um, it can come from people that, that call themselves coaches, like, uh... And, you know, what's interesting too is it can come from people you mentor as well.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky40:26

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DFDylan Field40:26

       Like, there have been plenty of people where, uh, they ask me a question at some point and I give them an answer and they think it's insightful for whatever reason. And then years later, we're, we're talking again, and I ask them a question and they're like, "Well, years ago, you told me..." (laughs) And they, like, repeat back what I told them, like, "That's a really good point." (laughs)

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky40:44

       (laughs)

    8. DFDylan Field40:45

       Uh, or they've grown and they've changed and they've learned, and they tell me something completely different, they give me a new framework. And so I think that, uh, when you're... Yeah, like, a lot of times, when I talk with new founders, they teach me things that are, are totally things that I've just never, never thought about. Or, or interns at Figma have been mentors to me in many ways. So, it... You really have to have a learning mindset and just always be ready to absorb new information, I think.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky41:09

       When you were just tinkering around with Figma 12 years ago, I think, at this point, did you ever imagine you'd be running a thousand-person company, an audience just spellbound by what you're building? There's, like, people lining up to take photos with your logo in the lobby. Like, that doesn't happen. That's very rare. Uh, just to give you a chance to reflect on just how it feels to have built that over time. How does, how does that feel sitting here right now?

    10. DFDylan Field41:32

        Well, I feel very, very lucky, but also very humbled by just the community that is around Figma. I mean, I, I mentioned in the keynote, but just, like, the people that are in the Figma community are the people that are shaping the world's technology. And the chance to, to serve them and to make software for them and hopefully improve their life in some little way, uh, is such a privilege. It's a responsibility, uh, and one I don't take lightly, but also I try not to, like, carry that as a weight-

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky42:03

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DFDylan Field42:03

        ... but rather as, like, pump me up and, uh, and get me excited to go build for them. So...

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky42:10

        Yeah. When we were talking about this idea earlier, the, you, you... Like, the first thing you said is it's a responsibility, which I didn't expect. Is there anything more there or just like, "Wow, I really have to help make this-"

    14. DFDylan Field42:19

        Well, again, it's, you know, going back to the simplification, uh, point, you know, it's, it's very important that we continue to make Figma more and more simple. We make Figma th- as powerful as we can for the people that are in our community, uh, that we figure out what people's needs truly are, um, and that we advance the state of the craft and make it so that we do that in a responsible way. Uh-... and, and that we champion design, and, and champion quality. So, we're trying to do all those things. We, sometimes mess up, but people have been very patient with us, and we're very thankful for that. And thankful for the support of just everyone, uh, here, and, uh, and in our community that, that are giving us a chance to, to make this impact.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky43:06

        Is there anything else you wanna... Oh, yeah, there's some applause. (audience clapping) Love that.

    16. DFDylan Field43:11

        Thank you.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky43:15

        Applause break.

17. 43:16 – 48:07

    Lightning round

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky43:16

       Is there anything else you wanna share? Anything else you wanna leave listeners with before we get to our very ex- very lightning round, very quick lightning round?

    2. DFDylan Field43:22

       (laughs) Um, well, no, I just, I, I think one thing I'll share is, uh, I think we're so early on this journey of computing in general, um, and in our lifetimes, we're gonna have the chance to just build such incredible technology and incredible products. And I'm really excited to see what everyone in this room builds, but, uh, also this, everyone on the internet that's listening maybe, also builds. Uh, and send me cool stuff. So, if you s- you build something cool, like, message me somewhere, and, uh, and share it with me.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky43:56

       What's the best way to message you?

    4. DFDylan Field43:58

       Uh... (audience laughing) Email's good. Uh, you can probably figure out my email if you-

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky44:02

       Just use your website?

    6. DFDylan Field44:03

       ... work with it for, like, five seconds. Or use WebSim. Uh, (laughs) and, uh, uh, Twitter/X is good. Uh, those are two places, at least, you can find me.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky44:12

       Amazing. Dylan, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. We only have a couple minutes left. (bell dinging)

    8. DFDylan Field44:16

       Okay.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky44:16

       It's a very short one. Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love, other than WebSim?

    10. DFDylan Field44:21

        Hmm. Um... Well, I will say that, uh, it's not like a favorite product, but I will say that, um, if you get, like, i- um, not to... I- I- I- I- I'm trying to... (audience laughing) Hesitating if I should say this or not. (audience laughing)

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky44:44

        We'll cut it out in post, don't worry about it.

    12. DFDylan Field44:46

        (laughs) (audience laughing) It's so fas- I'll say this. It's so fascinating to look at all the different LMs out there right now.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky44:57

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DFDylan Field44:57

        And what each one is uniquely good at. And it's really fun, if you can hack them the right way and get them in the right mood, what they'll do. That's what I'll say.

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky45:07

        Whoa. What does that mean? (audience laughing) Okay.

    16. DFDylan Field45:11

        It's my diplomatic answer.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky45:13

        Okay. Interesting. Okay. Uh, do you have a favorite life motto that you come back to, repeat to yourself, share with friends or family that you find really useful?

    18. DFDylan Field45:22

        Hmm. I don't know if I've got a, like, life motto, but one piece of advice I've always appreciated is when people give you advice, they're not giving you advice. They're giving themselves advice in your shoes.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky45:33

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DFDylan Field45:33

        Uh, and I think that's, like, a interesting one. So if I gave you advice here, um, I'd be giving myself advice in your shoes.

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky45:39

        Hmm. Final question. Not many people know this, but you were a, you were an actor, a child actor, when you were five years old. (audience cooing) Do you think you made the right career move? Do you feel like you sometimes regret acting?

    22. DFDylan Field45:53

        (audience laughing) Uh, (laughs) yeah, definitely. Um, (laughs) , uh, uh, that's my mom. (laughs) (audience laughing) Uh, my mom's in the audience, and she says, "Yes." (laughs) (audience laughing) Uh, no, I mean, like, like, we've been talking about product. Uh, if you're an actor, you're a product in some way. And, um, that's not to disparage actors. Actors are awesome. Acting is awesome. I loved it. But, uh, my differentiators when I was five, uh, five and a half, I think, was that I could, uh, I could read and I could sit still, and I was decently cute. (audience laughing) Um, then I hit puberty, and those things were no longer differentiators. (audience laughing) And, uh, uh, then it was like, "Let's, let's do some computer science." (audience laughing)

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky46:38

        So to close, we're gonna play a... Oh, yeah, applause. (audience clapping) Uh, we're gonna play a clip, something I found on YouTube to close. And, uh, enjoy. 30 seconds clip. (gentle music) (birds chirping) (waves crashing) (woman humming) Where will you find a world of ideas for your child? Only at eToys. From Barbie to Brio to Swimways. (water splashing) eToys, where great ideas come to you.

    24. DFDylan Field47:24

        That was a good find. (laughs) (audience clapping)

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky47:25

        Thank you. Dylan, thank you so much for doing this.

    26. DFDylan Field47:28

        Thank you. I, could I make one comment about that commercial?

    27. LRLenny Rachitsky47:31

        Okay, one comment.

    28. DFDylan Field47:32

        Okay, one comment before we end. That commercial made that company go bankrupt. (audience laughing) Thank you all for joining. (laughs) Thank you for having me, Lenny. (audience clapping)

    29. LRLenny Rachitsky47:40

        Good list. Thanks, Dylan. Bye, everyone. (gentle music) Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

Episode duration: 48:07