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Sebastian Barrios: How 18k engineers deploy 30k times a day

At Mercadolibre the engineering leadership runs product strategy: about 1,000 PMs work alongside 18,000 engineers shipping 30,000 deploys per day.

Lenny RachitskyhostSebastian Barriosguest
Jun 8, 20251h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 5:03

    Introduction to Sebastian Barrios and Mercado Libre

    1. LR

      Steve Jobs called you.

    2. SB

      One day I'm walking in the street and, and I get a phone and a blocked number. I was super young, by the way, at the time. I think I was like 16. I pick up, I say, "Oh, uh, hi, it's Sebastien. This is Steve from Apple. I need to talk to you about your app. We're not going to be able to have it on the App Store." I actually pushed back a little bit and told him, "I, I read all the rules of the App Store." He told me, "Check again, because we just added a new rule."

    3. LR

      At 19, you built an app that became the number one app in 19 countries.

    4. SB

      It absolutely exploded. I actually got contacted by a lot of different companies, like multinationals, governments, saying like, "Well, you have the number one app. We want you to build an app for us."

    5. LR

      You oversee something like 18,000 developers.

    6. SB

      We do around 30,000 deployments per day. We deliver over five million packages per day.

    7. LR

      You're really big on not creating a big distinction between engineering and product.

    8. SB

      It's hard to separate where engineering stops and product begins, and we don't feel like just having a title should determine who is the owner.

    9. LR

      Is there anything else that might be helpful for folks, either about how you operate as a human, morning routine?

    10. SB

      We were raised in a very (laughs) intensely independent way. My mother, mainly, the analogy that she used is that she wanted to train us like spies. She would drop us in the middle of the city, Mexico City, and be like, "You have to get back home. You have to, like, know public transit or ask someone for help and basically solve problems. Just go and get things done."

    11. LR

      Today my guest is Sebastien Barrios. Sebas, as most people know him, is currently senior vice president of engineering at Roblox. He was also a long time head of product and engineering at MercadoLibre. MercadoLibre might be the biggest and most interesting company that you have never heard of, and Sebas might also be the most interesting product leader that you've never heard of. MercadoLibre is currently the most valuable company in Latin America, valued at over $100 billion, which also makes them one of the 150 most valuable companies on the planet. They also have one of the largest engineering teams on the planet, with over 18,000 engineers operating in 18 countries. They deploy an unprecedented 30,000 times a day. The company owns their own trucks and planes. They deliver over five million packages a day. At one point, eBay tried to acquire them. They ended up acquiring PayPal instead. Now they are larger than both eBay and PayPal combined. Also, just wait till you hear the stories about Sebas' early life, including how his mom trained him like a spy, why he only drinks water, no coffee or tea or juice, why he doesn't listen to music, and also why Steve Jobs personally called him when he was 17 years old, telling him that they are booting his app from the App Store and forever changing the App Store policies as a result. A huge thank you to Christopher Lazarus, Oscar Mullen, and Farhan Thawer for suggesting topics for this conversation. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of Bolt, Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, Granola, and more. Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click "bundle." With that, I bring you Sebastien Barrios. This episode is brought to you by Merge. Product leaders, yes, like you, cringe when they hear the word integration. They're not fun for you to scope, build, launch, or maintain, and integrations probably aren't what led you to product work in the first place. Lucky for you, the folks at Merge are obsessed with integrations. Their single API helps SaaS companies launch over 200 product integrations in weeks, not quarters. Think of Merge like Plaid, but for everything B2B SaaS. Organizations like Ramp, Dorada, and Electric use Merge to access their customer's accounting data to reconcile bill payments, file storage data to create searchable databases in their product, or HRIS data to auto-provision and de-provision access for their customer's employees. And yes, if you need AI-ready data for your SaaS product, then Merge is the fastest way to get it. So, want to solve your organization's integration dilemma once and for all? Book and attend a meeting at merge.dev/lenny and receive a $50 Amazon gift card. That's merge.dev/lenny. This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast. Now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more with a single platform, Vanta. Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risk. Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI. Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash Lenny.

  2. 5:03 – 14:48

    Mercado Libre’s scale and unique ways of operating

    1. LR

      Sebas, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

    2. SB

      Well, super happy to be here. Thank you for hosting me.

    3. LR

      This is the first time that you're doing a, uh, a major, let's call it major podcast.

    4. SB

      I think you can call it major podcast. You, you can be proud of what you've done.

    5. LR

      I appreciate that. Um, so let me just start with a stat that I think is gonna blow a lot of people's minds. You oversee something like 18,000 developers. Is that right? Is that the right number?

    6. SB

      That is the right number, uh, 18,000 and climbing. Uh, I just would specify that they don't report all directly to me. We can talk about how the company is structured, but yes, I lead the, the technology team that basically powers all of what they do.

    7. LR

      I think essentially you guys are in the top 10 of most, of most engineers at a company. You're like above Salesforce and TikTok, NVIDIA, Adobe, Uber, OpenAI.

    8. SB

      That's right. I think you have to go into like big tech or huge banks, uh, to, to get a, a larger number.

    9. LR

      Okay. So a lot of people listening to this have not heard of MercadoLibre. A lot of listeners are in the US, other parts of the country outside of Latin America. Give us just like a brief explanation of what does MercadoLibre do, and then give us a few more stats that will blow people's minds to the scale of this business at this point.

    10. SB

      Happy to, happy to. So, the... Y- y- y- you can think of us as a completely vertically integrated e-commerce marketplace. All that- that- that means, uh, buying and selling any product you can think of. And the vertically integrated part means we have our own distribution network, we have our own airplanes, we have our own, uh, trucks. Uh, we have to do all of the technology and coordination, uh, behind that. But even, or in addition to- to that, we also have a- a- a very large fintech operation. The- the two sides of the business are actually almost the same size. So we also offer accounts, we offer credit cards, we offer loans. Uh, uh, all of that are like integrated with each other into a, what we call an- an- an ecosystem.

    11. LR

      Okay. And then I saw a stat that you guys plan to have over 100,000 employees by the end of this year.

    12. SB

      That's right. There's a lot of, uh, operations that need to happen, uh, for- for- for all those packages to- to be delivered. You asked about some, uh, fun statistics, uh, specifically with- with deliveries. We deliver over five million packages per day or items. So you visit most of Latin America. We have some very cool visualizations where if you track the routes of our- our- our trucks and- and- and delivery vans and- and whatnot, we sort of like paint a picture of Latin America, which is pretty fun. Uh, we obviously operate in- in major cities, but we have very, very, uh, large capillary, you know, and- and reach all the different corners of- of- of Latin America.

    13. LR

      Okay. A couple more stats that you didn't mention. Uh, you guys are valued over $100 billion.

    14. SB

      It's a large company.

    15. LR

      In US dollars.

    16. SB

      We- we don't focus on-

    17. LR

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... the stock price, uh, that much (laughs) . Uh...

    19. LR

      Okay.

    20. SB

      But yes, uh, 100 billion, ev- even more so now. Depends on- on how the market's feeling, and- and- uh, what the (laughs) ... what the global news are. But yes, uh, one of the top-valued companies on the, on the planet. Uh, we have around 100 million, uh, users, customers, sellers, people interacting in the, in the platform. And as you mentioned, uh, one of the larger engineering and product building teams on the planet.

    21. LR

      Hopefully people now get a sense of like, "Holy shit, this is, uh... there's a lot to learn here." There's kind of two buckets to the way I wanna approach this conversation. One is just really unique, interesting ways you all operate and how you scale a business like this, how you build product. The other is just, uh, you as a human are really interesting (laughs) , and there's a lot of stories I've heard that I wanna talk about, but I'm gonna save that for, for, for next. Let's start with how y'all operate. So one of the... so I talked to a lot of people that work with you, that work at MercadoLibre. One of the themes that came up again and again is, you- you're really big on not creating a big distinction between engineering and product. It's essentially one team for you guys. Talk about just how that works specifically. Just like, what does that mean and why that's so important to you?

    22. SB

      For me and for, uh, MercadoLibre, it's hard to separate where sort of like engineering stops and product begins. We do have a small product organization. There are people in MercadoLibre that have the- the- the product manager title, but the- the ratio is much smaller than at any other tech company that- that- that you would think of. And the way we- we think about it is like that, we- we- we're not gonna determine who's gonna own the product just based on the title. It's gonna be based on who's the best for that role, you know? And then, uh, turns out that for us and- and the majority of the cases, it's the engineering leaders, it's the- the- the tech leads. It's the- the- the people that can understand what's technically possible and they're also good about, okay, what- what are the business needs? What are the user needs? What are the users doing? How am I gonna measure that, you know? And- and combine that into a- a single role.

    23. LR

      So to make this even real... even clearer, you have 18,000-ish developers. How many people have the PM title?

    24. SB

      So I think it's less than 1,000, only the thing that would make, uh, like 5%, uh, w- worked. In other companies, maybe you have 10, 20, 30%, even more at other companies.

    25. LR

      So two follow-ups here. One is just why- why do you think operating this way is more effective in- in the way... in your business, and what... do you need to hire engineers in a different way for them to succeed in this way where they're basically playing the PM role?

    26. SB

      This works because you wanna be as close to the problem as possible, and that probably works being as close to the technology as possible, being as close to the users as possible. You can have it with two different people that have to interact and- and coordinate, and that obviously works as well, right? Like, I- I- I'm not saying this is the- the- the only way to do it. Clearly, there are a lot more examples. Maybe we are actually the- the exception and- and- and it would be hard to replicate anywhere else. But if you're able to have that whole context in a single mind, in a single person that can then deliver that vision to the team, I think it leads to great products that users are gonna love and- and- and enjoy. In terms of hiring, we do in- in- in the interview process sort of like test for product skills, but we mainly do tests for- for engineering skills. Uh, I think it's worth being honest about, like we- we- we have a strong bias for, uh, engineering, for- for- for being technical, for being deep into the- the details. There's no... not a lot of tolerance for being in a meeting and getting asked a question and it's like, "Well, I need to check with this person to understand the details because, you know, I'm not sure what technology we're using," like that- that would not fly. You know, uh, so the... there is a bias towards the- the tech side of it. And then once we... once you're inside MercadoLibre, you... we'll probably get to know you a lot more and- and it'll be very clear if you have the product inclination or if you should... uh, if you would be more comfortable just with- with the engineering.

    27. LR

      What's really interesting about this is a lot of companies start with no PMs and they're like, "We never need PMs. We're- we're just gonna be engineers leading products. It's gonna be amazing." And then usually, eventually, uh...... people, these engineers realize, "I don't want to be doing all this bullshit PM work. Like, I just want to code. I want to build. What am I in meetings all day, writing specs?" And it's interesting. You guys have scaled to 100 billion dollar market cap, 18,000 people on the product team developers, and still you're working this way. It's really rare. What do you think has allowed you to operate this way at this scale that maybe other companies can't?

    28. SB

      Yeah. I think it-it-it's also a top-down, uh, thing where, uh, a lot of the leadership is very technical. They're, they're, uh, very into the, the product. They're also very into the business, into the numbers, into the, the details. Uh, it's, it's amazing to be on the C-level meetings and, and the kind of questions, uh, the kind of level of a- of attention. I know founder mode is now, uh, like, a, a term that's, that's there, but the company has been operating like that for, for a while now where, uh, discussions will even go as deep as, "Okay, why are we using that copy? That's way too many words. Uh, it's not clear. Hey, what, wh- why is this pixel here where, uh, we could use that space for something a lot more useful?" A- and these are literally conversations at the, at the C-level. Uh, asking, "Okay, how does this work for users?" Uh, when, when you present a feature, and here I'm gonna stereotype other companies. Know it might not be the case, but m- my understanding is anytime it's okay, how much revenue can we get from this new feature or, or what's the metric th- that's gonna move? For Marcus, our, our, our CEO, the first question is always, "Okay, how's the user gonna experience this? Show me the flow. Show me the user experience. Are they understanding it? Show me the metrics that people are actually liking what we're, what we're doing." Putting the users before the, the, uh, the revenue obviously turns into revenue in the future or in the, in the long term, which is what you're looking for. So again, I, I think the, the, the top-down version of that, uh, maintaining the, the culture and being able to, like, select for the top of the top talent, uh, in, in a whole region, you know, in, in multiple countries, I think it's what's allowed that to, to happen. And th- the, the business, as you said, like there's a lot of technology, right? Like you, you need to do the routing for all the, the, uh, the buses, the, the trucks, the planes, the distribution centers. You need to do routing for picking items within the, the, uh, the distribution centers, risk, uh, content moderation, search, uh, robotics. Oh, there's, uh, a really long list of, of really fun initiatives, uh, that we're working on. Uh, they're all very technical and turn into value

  3. 14:48 – 19:19

    AI’s impact on operations

    1. SB

      for our users.

    2. LR

      I can't help but ask, how does AI impact this way of working where engineers are doing more and more of the PM work? Uh, is that just accelerating that further? Is there anything you can share about just how AI is changing the way y'all operate?

    3. SB

      It's a great question 'cause you probably always hear it from, from the other side, you know, like, okay, now people who are more product oriented are not gonna need engineers as much. So for, for, for us, the, the change is accelerating what people can do on both sides, uh, but I don't think there's any competition. And, and again, we, we, we don't see a line between product and, and engineering as strongly as, as other companies. So I'm extremely happy when, uh, someone who's more product oriented comes in and can actually start developing more stuff on their own. Even just demos. You know, I think for, for... We, we can talk about the AI hype, uh, a little bit in the, in the future, but it's definitely great to, to, to make demos, to actually turn ideas into something that you can touch, uh, something that, that you can see, designs, you know, and, and seeing, uh, a lot more people enabled to, to do that, I think, is just accelerating everything we do. On, on the actual coding side, of course, it started as, like, advanced autocomplete, and now you have agentic frameworks and Cursor and Windsurf. OpenAI just made a- an acquisition. Clearly it's sort of like a, a, a big shift in, in the way we, we develop technology. I- it's not at the point where it can sort of like do anything and everything and, and security, compliance, all the different things that, that go around actually turning, uh, a demo or a product into something that, that's gonna reach the production or, or, or the market, uh, takes time. But I would say we're, we're taking it even further. We always like to think in, in terms of platforms. Uh, it's one of the reasons why we've been able to scale the team so much. We have a great internal development platform that takes care of a lot of scaling, security, building, testing, compliance, uh, so, so developers and, and teams can just focus on adding value. And we're taking the same approach with AI. We developed a- an internal platform called Verde, uh, that basically abstracts away a lot of the complexities around, okay, where are you going to get data? How is it going to be authorized? Uh, and, and that in itself has been evolving as the models become more, more capable. Now you can have more what's called agentic... Called agents, agentic frameworks, uh, things taking action, taking over longer tasks, uh, and, uh, we're seeing great results with skipping code entirely. I think it's, it's, uh, it's a fun one where the, the prompter or what you actually want the product to do is everything you, you tell a system. We came up with ways to use our existing code. So, it's not like there's no code in any of, of what I'm talking about, but we basically can extract the functionality of every single one of our microservices, and then we can have agents build and, uh, use different parts of, of different services and create new features for users end-to-end with a UI. So that- that's something that is still experimental, obviously, uh, but it's happening and, and it's just gonna accelerate as the, the...... the models get better. So we literally have things that are taking existing code. So you, you, it's not like code doesn't exist, but you don't have to write any new code. There's a lot of functionality that we already have on the platform and you can combine different parts of it, of it and, uh, turn it into a, a new feature or product without any intervention from, from any code, extra code.

    4. LR

      That is very cool. So essentially, you have all these APIs and microservices, and your agents can just use what already exists to add new features.

    5. SB

      Exactly. And, and, and if you extend it a little more, you could even reach a point where, like, UIs and, and, and apps are sort of, like, entirely generated. In other words, you're like, okay, these are, like, all the things that you can do inside MercadoLibre. You can buy stuff, you can get a credit card, you can move money around, uh, and then have, like, a completely personalized UI for, for a user, predicting what are you gonna do next and, and just having that as the main screen. Maybe you have, like, other screens, obviously, that, that allow you to do everything, but it's a- a- an exciting future. I think we're, we're gonna see a lot more, uh, automated, uh, UI.

    6. LR

      Wow. Okay. I'm gonna try to resist just making every conversation about AI. So let's leave that aside and maybe we'll come

  4. 19:19 – 34:20

    Empowering teams and reducing fear of failure

    1. LR

      back to it. But let's zoom out a little bit, and I wanna hear other key or very unique ways of working that you have figured out that allow you to operate this team of 18,000 developers and continue to ship great products. So if you had to pick, like, I don't know, two or three key ways of working, what would those be?

    2. SB

      One big one, uh, it's a cliché but it's true, is, uh, the, the fear of failure. You know, uh, we actually empower our teams to, to, to make mistakes. Like, no one's gonna get fired for, uh, releasing something that, uh, didn't work in the sense that maybe the market was not ready or, uh, we had the wrong idea on, on, on where we had to implement. Obviously, there's a lot less tolerance for, okay, bad quality and it failed because the product wasn't good or, or, or was going offline or, or, uh, those kinds of, uh, failures are, are much less tolerated. Uh, but we do encourage our teams to take a lot of risks on what we should actually be working on. Uh, we also let them be very independent. You know, I think it goes hand in hand. So there are... For example, we don't operate with OKRs, uh, where everything just, like, trickles down into what every team is, is supposed to do. We have very high level objectives on where we want the, the, the company to be, and they're not even that long term. You know, it's not like we have a 10-year plan and, and I think in, in a market that's changing so much, even before AI... You know, it's an extremely competitive market with very dynamic regulations in, in, in multiple countries. So it's, it's, it's hard to say like, okay, this is the plan for 10 years and these are the OKRs and now everyone go into your teams and implement the specific features that, that, that are gonna point to that. The way we run it is, these are the objectives, these are maybe some of the new businesses or areas where we would like to explore, but everything else is up to the teams. You know, we, we just cascade the, the main vision of, of where the company's going and there's a lot of, uh, another cliché, freedom and responsibility. Saying like, okay, do whatever, literally whatever you think is best for, uh, our users, for, for the company, for, for what we want to, uh, accomplish. There's gonna be tight feedback loops on that to also (laughs) make sure everyone's pointing in the same direction. But you can't sort of, like, be, uh, telling 18,000 people exactly what they should be working on every day and, and, and expect that to, to work. So there's a fun combination of what can you delegate, what can you not delegate. Uh, we're also, I think, very hands-on wherever we can be. So the, the... We can't be on every single detail, but in the projects that we feel are most important, the whole leadership team goes extremely deep, you know, into working with the team, uh, understanding what the restrictions are, what the, what's working, what's not working and, and, and pushing the, the team forward. So I think that's, um, that's, that's probably the main one. Uh, we also talked about putting users before revenue, you know, I think that's another, uh, big one that, that we've liked. Uh, and there's another tricky aspect of it, because life is trade-offs, you know? But so we say, "Okay, let, let's be very distributed on, on what the teams are, are gonna be working on," then you can end up with a product that has great parts, but once you put them all together, it's horrible and it, uh, it sucks. People don't like it. Uh, so you also need a, a, a mix of, okay, uh, this is the holistic vision, uh, this is what we want to accomplish, this is what probably the end product is gonna look like and then you can build the, the, the features. Uh, and there's no, like, one rule that basically applies to, to, to all projects. There, there are times where you can have more freedom, there are times where you do require, uh, a lot more sort of, like, yeah, one vision of, of, uh, of where things are going. So I think that's, that's another important one. What else? We like to observe users more than talk to users. You know, you always hear, uh, talk to users, uh, listen to users, they're gonna tell you what they want, what they need. Uh, that works sometimes. Uh, we've seen that what works best is just to observe them, whether that's literally, like, user research sessions and just seeing what, uh, what people are doing with the, with the product. Uh, I'm sure this has happened to you and to many people that, that listen to your show and, and, and, uh, you cringe at all the assumptions that, that are being crushed before your eyes as, as someone types in their email and, uh, their name in the same field because your field said email, name. You know, so you could either have the email or the username and people are, "Well, I'll write both, you know, because that's what they're asking of me." So a lot of examples like this where observing users is, uh, extremely valuable. I think those are the ones that come to mind.

    3. LR

      Okay. This is, uh, great. Let me follow up on a couple of these. So what I'm hearing is there's a lot of independence and kind of, uh, distribution of, of ownership.... uh, where teams can kind of go off and build their own stuff. As you pointed out, uh, it's important to have a vision and some sense of what success looks like and make sure everyone's rowing in the same direction. Just going a level deeper, how do you actually operationalize that sort of way of operating where teams can do their own thing, but you also share a vision? Like, how often do you update that vision? How do you communicate it? And then how do you check in with teams, uh, to make sure they're heading towards the right, in the right direction?

    4. SB

      We don't do anything magical there. We, we do a lot of design reviews, I think is the term that, that they would probably use and, and... or product reviews in the, in the US where it's like, okay, this is what we're working on. This is what it looks like. This is what all the pieces together are doing and, and, and working or not working. Uh, uh, and there the, the leadership team is extremely candid and honest on their feedback. Always cordial, uh, and, and a, a, a happy, uh, work environment, but definitely on the side of, of, of being honest about what's working, what's not working, uh, whether the, the vision was mistaken as well. Uh, there were many times where we've, uh, thought this was the right direction, turns out it's not. And we can, uh, pivot very quickly into a, a, a new thing. Um, so no, no big secrets. Uh, just, uh, the, there, there... Maybe the only secret is you can't check absolutely everything, uh, when you have 18,000 people. Uh, so to give you another crazy, uh, statistic, we do around 30,000 deployments per day, like changes to production. Uh-

    5. LR

      30,000, uh, PRs, oh, a day?

    6. SB

      Yeah, PRs, deploys, yeah.

    7. LR

      Deploys, okay.

    8. SB

      Like changes, you know, the ch-

    9. LR

      Okay.

    10. SB

      ... changes to, to, to a system. It can be configuration changes, it can be, uh, database updates or, or whatever.

    11. LR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SB

      Like things that, that, that change. So th- there's no way, uh, anyone can check what those 30,000 changes are, are, are doing.

    13. LR

      That's, that's more than one per developer per day.

    14. SB

      Yeah, yeah. Some of them are automated changes, uh, as well.

    15. LR

      Mm-hmm. Still.

    16. SB

      Uh, but yeah, we, we, we have a very, uh, high speed of, uh, of execution and, uh, yeah, it's, uh, quite fun to, to be around (laughs) something that, that, that's changing that rapidly and, and that dramatically. Um, we, again, have many different businesses, many different competitors in, in, in different businesses who operate at world class, whether it's finance, whether it's, uh, e-commerce. Uh, I would even say Brazil is probably one of the most competitive markets on the planet for, for e-commerce. You have local players, you have international players, you have players from Asia that are even funded by video game, uh, revenue and, and, and profits. Um, so it's a great dynamic market to, to be around.

    17. LR

      (laughs) I like that optimism, that way of framing it.

    18. SB

      Well, dude, we, we like competition-

    19. LR

      Uh-

    20. SB

      ... uh, especially when you're competing with, with sort of like the top of the top and, uh, it pushes you to be better as well.

    21. LR

      Mm-hmm. This point you made earlier about the being the, the top company in a market is really interesting. I was, I was wondering if I wanted to come to this, but I think it's interesting to talk about for a bit. So I've had a few, uh, product leaders from companies like Revolut and 26, uh, I haven't had Intercom on yet, but the co- co-founders coming on soon. And the, the... a theme across all those conversations about how they've built such a strong product team that pumps out incredible product leaders is they're the top startup in their market. And it's just an interesting thread of just how much power comes with being the most successful company in a market and just like the cycle of success that comes from that in terms of hiring amazing people. Is there anything else there that you think might be interesting to folks that are, I don't know, that want to try to do something like this other than just build a successful business?

    22. SB

      I think it applies to, to many things. And, and you often also hear like, "Well, you're not in the Bay Area. Uh, you're not in the, the pinnacle of, of... in the capital of, uh, of technology. So how can you build amazing technology?" You know, and there are advantages as well. I think you, you would find the same with... You mentioned a, a, a bunch of companies that, that have experienced that where okay, if you can be the, the top in the region where there's great talent, you know, and like by statistical definition, there's great talent everywhere. It's, it's probably follows a, a, a probabilistic distribution so it's everywhere. A lot of it does flow into the, the, the US and it's absolutely true that there's, uh, a very high concentration of talent outside specific companies. I think that's probably the, the one thing you don't get outside of, uh, of the big tech hubs where you, uh, are the top company, but you are the only top company. And I'm exaggerating a bit, right? There are great companies, uh, throughout the world and in Latin America, and you have unicorns and there are outliers. Um, but the truth is, you're setting your own path and you're setting your, your, your map and, uh, the... setting your own destination and you're building things that have not been built before and, and in a different way. And it's, it's very fun, uh, that's for sure.

    23. LR

      Uh, by the way, I'll correct... Uh, I said Intercom, I don't think... I think they're technically a US based company, but I think a lot of it, a lot of their team is in Ireland or was originally in Ireland, just to be clear there. And then there's other companies like Canva and Atlassian. I feel like there's, there's a really... Like what I'm taking away from this is if you want to build a company outside of the US, you need to be the best in that market to take advantage of this cycle that happens where the best come to you.

    24. SB

      Yeah, maybe you could say you have to be the best eventually, uh, if you want to-

    25. LR

      Mm-hmm. Right.

    26. SB

      ... like have that flywheel running. Uh, it's hard to start and be the best, uh, and the biggest, you know, when, when, when you're just getting started. Uh, but I think knowing that there's great talent everywhere and, and that it is possible to attract them, uh, without being in a specific tech hub, maybe even empowering, you know? So like, okay, I want to start a, a company here. I think we can also be honest that it will be harder. Oh, it is easier to recruit and, and, and build a team where you're in a place where...... h- the high density is all over. Uh, another thing that happens to us is that many people try to recruit from us, uh, and that's (laughs) something that we have to deal with. Um, but if you actually get that, uh, flywheel going, uh, it becomes into a clear advantage.

    27. LR

      I wanna come back to something you said that I think might be... there might be something more there, which is around reducing the fear of failure. A lot of companies and leaders say that, and they're like, "Yeah, yeah. We let people fail. Totally. No problem." But then in reality, you know, they have performance reviews, they gotta show impact, they have to show success. Is there something you do to actually create that sort of culture where failing is okay? Like, what can people learn from you to actually create that sort of culture?

    28. SB

      I think that question is even more on, like, h- how does culture work at, at, at any company, especially at, at, at ours? You know, it's very clear that it's not what you write on the walls or what you put on, on, on your website. Uh, from, from what I've learned and what we've seen, it, it's something... it's what you do, you know? It's, it's what the leadership team is, is doing, is how I get my performance reviews, how I get either praise or not praise in, in, in public, you know? What are the acceptable errors? What are the not acceptable errors? Uh, because again, if we have, uh, a system outage, you know, uh, it's obviously unacceptable. Like, that's not the, the, uh, the kind of error that, that we're going for. We're going for, "Well, you took a, a, a risk and a very bold vision, and it turns out it was not the right path." You're not gonna get penalized for that. Uh, you might even get a, a, a promotion. And, and those messages that, that you send are extremely powerful, you know? And, uh, who has what title, who gets promoted, who doesn't get promoted, uh, who is, is getting what praise in public, you know, uh, what announcements are made on new products, how do we talk about things that, that, that didn't work, you know? One very clear one is like, "Okay, this didn't work, and, and, and yes, we like risk, but the person that led the project was fired." You know? It's like, well, then you're not sort of, like, living what you are, uh... or you have on your website, you know? So, uh, I think it... it's not more complicated than that. You need to live it, you need to show it, and, uh, you also need to, like, have people that will take in that culture and also propagate it into their teams. That's also the way it scales, uh, in the... in the organization. But it definitely starts with the, the top management of, uh, of the company, and again, what they are focused on, uh, what messages they're sending to, to the rest of the... of the company. They participate in the product reviews. They, they are very aware, uh, at least of all the big features that, that we launch, and the, the feedback is direct and, uh, clear.

    29. LR

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  5. 34:20 – 38:26

    The importance of radical candor

    1. LR

      Only on LinkedIn Ads. You talked about this idea of being direct and honest, but also maintaining a cordial environment. Talk about just that balance in the culture you've created of being direct. Kind of this idea of radical candor is what I'm hearing.

    2. SB

      Yeah. So the, the, the book became very, very popular, you know, uh-

    3. LR

      The book Radical Candor?

    4. SB

      Yeah, yeah. It's, uh-

    5. LR

      Oh, awesome.

    6. SB

      It's a-

    7. LR

      We had Kim Scott on the podcast.

    8. SB

      It's a great book. And, uh, the concept is, is also great. I would even say it's even more important in, uh, Latin America, uh, in some Asian countries, where you have, uh, a culture, and I'm Latin American so I can talk a little bit about stereotypes without it, uh, becoming, uh, offensive, uh, especially ones (laughs) that are true, where there's a lot of hierarchy and, "Okay, I'm not gonna tell my boss that he's wrong. Uh, we're just gonna do this because he said so or she said so. This is the way it works and, and this is the way it's always been done, so that's the way we're, we're, we're gonna do it. Uh, I don't wanna stand out." You know, these are sort of, like, cultural stereotypes that we are extremely aware of when we... when we operate. Uh, people are extremely polite in Latin America as well. I don't know if you've... if, if you've traveled. Everyone will smile at you. It will be very hard for someone to say no to something, uh, even, like, (laughs) meetings or whatnot, they'll say, "Oh, yeah. Yes, but later. Yes, but later," and, and, and they actually, uh, mean no. I think they're Argentina, uh, and other countries, but Argentina where the company was, was founded is, is an exception to that, where people are, uh, very direct. Uh, I will tell my boss if he... if he's wrong. Uh, it's something that I love about the company, and we've been able to sort of, like, export that, and also select for people that will actually, uh, behave in, in, in that way. But yes, we're extremely direct, uh, extremely candid, uh, we're honest, uh, about what's working, what's, what's not working, and it's a... it's, it's a learning that every, uh, like, manager or, or leader goes through. Like, "Well, I don't wanna hurt people's feelings," you know? Uh, "I wanna be friends with everyone." Uh, I think we all start on, on, on that path. And eventually you realize that people like the, the honesty. They, they might not like it in the very short term or in the medium term sometimes even, uh, but my experience has been, if you're coming from, uh, a place of honesty, again, if you're sort of, like, not insulting anyone or, or kind of, like-... crossing, uh, a line where, where things, uh, feel personal. Uh, people appreciate the, the feedback. People like growing. People, like, if, if you have your performance review and everything comes back positive, what are you gonna do with that? Uh, it's like, "Well, he's doing great. Uh, everything's perfect. Thank you, uh, for being a part of the company." Or, no, it's like, "What could I be doing better? What's not working?" It's also a skill to separate that from, from your person. Now, we, we do have situations where, uh, I've had to have conversations on, like, "Well, you, you got this strong feedback, but, but it's on the product, you know?" It's like, maybe on, on, on the vision that we are pursuing or on the execution, uh, that their work has nothing to do, like, with you. We can, we can go out and, and, and have lunch, uh, uh, uh, and, and, uh, we'll still be, uh, cordial and, and, uh... But this, uh, idea of, well, the companies should be like families, and, and it's not true, because you, you behave extremely different with, with your family. There's no expectation of high performance. Uh, I mean, in some families, obviously, uh, and, and in some cases even, and, and in mine we could talk about that. But it's always from, fr- from a different perspective, whereas I think the analogy that we use much more often is of a high performance sports team, where it's very clear where the line is between yes, we can have fun together, and we should as we work on uninteresting things. But when you, uh, are talking about work and, and the performance and, and what's working, what's not working, the, the, uh, the results speak for themselves usually, and we just don't

  6. 38:26 – 41:03

    Weekly updates

    1. SB

      hide that from, from anyone.

    2. LR

      Speaking of that, along those same lines, I heard you do this. (clears throat) You do something that, uh, uh, is a little controversial these days, but, but you did this a long time ago, which is you send a weekly email asking, "What did you get done this week?" And you share what you get- you got done this week. Uh, talk about just that.

    3. SB

      Yeah. Yeah. So, so, (laughs) so it became a, uh, a meme, uh, what was it? Like, one or two years ago. I used to do it before that, I should, uh, I should say. And I should also, uh, clarify that I don't actually have an expectation that the- that people are gonna send that to me. It's something I do myself, you know? So, I'll, I'll, uh, sort of like over what I did in the week, what worked, what didn't work, uh, even what interesting things I discovered, uh, and I will share that with, uh, the executive team, with, uh, with our CEO, who I report to. Uh, I'll share that, so- some of that with, with my team. You know, and it basically helps me keep track of, of, of what's working, what's not working. I, I usually also get feedback on, uh, on those emails, uh, or help or, uh, saying like, "Well, let's talk about this and this and that." So, I think that's something super simple that anyone can do, right? So, you, you can write, like, an, uh, a weekly email to your boss or to your team and saying like, "Well, this is, this is what happened this week. This is, uh, what worked. This is what didn't work. This is maybe something I need help with or, or, or something that's stuck. Uh, and maybe we can unlock it together." Uh, and I think it's strange that, um, not... I haven't heard a lot of people doing it. I think I actually read it somewhere, uh, a couple of years ago, and that's probably where, where I got the idea. Uh, I'll, I'll look it up to see if we can link it on your, uh, on your note so I don't take credit for it.

    4. LR

      I wrote a post about this actually. I called it the State of Me-

    5. SB

      Okay.

    6. LR

      ... uh, email.

    7. SB

      Maybe it was you.

    8. LR

      (laughs) I wonder if it was.

    9. SB

      Maybe it was you.

    10. LR

      Either way, I'll link to this post and the whole idea, and there's like a less controversial way of asking this instead of, "What did you get done this week?" Which is I call it the State of Me. I call it the State of Lenny email. And basically, every week... It was a weekly thing for me, not a daily thing, I emailed my manager, "Here's what I got done. Here's my next set of priorities. And here's blockers. I need you to help me with that."

    11. SB

      So, I probably got it from you. It's sounding extremely familiar. So, I send a weekly email.

    12. LR

      Wow.

    13. SB

      I, I call it a weekly update. It's also not like, "What did I get done this week?" It, it's, it, it can be what I got done, uh, on the week, but like important things that are happening, new releases. Uh, that also frees up a lot of time, uh, for example, with, uh, with my COO, uh, where like, okay, on the weekly meeting, we don't have to talk about, like, those specific things where we can pick out from that email, uh, what's relevant, what's working, what's not working. So, definitely a great tool. And, and, and I'm pretty sure I got it from, from your post, uh, just hearing you.

    14. LR

      What a, (clears throat) what a circle of life-

    15. SB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    16. LR

      ... we've got here.

  7. 41:03 – 44:24

    Avoiding hype cycles

    1. LR

      (laughs) Okay, so speaking of things that you did before other people, something else that came up a lot in chatting with folks that work with you is, they pointed out that you're really good at not falling for hype cycles. You're good at being really pragmatic about things that e- everyone's really excited about, like crypto, gen AI these days. How do you approach them? How do you approach new things that everyone's like super excited about and, uh, not kind of fall into this trap of just like, "Oh, we all got to pivot and do this thing that everyone else is doing"?

    2. SB

      I, I hadn't thought about it that way, uh, but it's true. Uh, it, it's true in some sense, 'cause it, it's not like I just ignore it. So, I, uh, think I, I, uh, bought or even mined my, my, my first Bitcoin in like 2010 or '12 or, or something like that. We can like-

    3. LR

      Wow.

    4. SB

      ... leave it undisclosed how many and, and, and how many I still-

    5. LR

      (laughs) That's... Why are you still working?

    6. SB

      Uh, no, n- not enough for that.

    7. LR

      Okay.

    8. SB

      Uh, no, a lot of great lessons on, on, on selling and, and when the right time and whatnot.

    9. LR

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    10. SB

      Uh...

    11. LR

      I had, (laughs) I had those lessons too.

    12. SB

      So it's not like I, I, I ignored, uh, what was happening. No. But the, the... I'm definitely skeptic of most things, I would say, even. Uh, I, I like doing a lot of research. Uh, Deep Research is, is, is a great tool. Like, I use it all the time for, for a lot of things. I do it myself, uh, as well. So, with crypto for example, I love the technology actually. The, uh, I think there, there, there are some, uh, very fun breakthroughs there, the, the distributed, uh, consensus and how you got like, uh, a single thing. But then you, you start to run some of the numbers on like, okay, so, uh, what's the throughput? And then what can you actually put in there? At least with the technology that, that we had, uh, at the time, a lot of things are, are moving quickly and you got layer two and layer three and, and whatnot. But I think.... having a, uh, a good understanding of the, uh, fundamentals and also being involved probably in, like, what I would call, quote-unquote, "the real world" in a business and, and, like, understanding the scale of, uh, what's necessary for, for, for things to work, uh, is, it's helpful. Uh, keeping a, a, a level head, you know, on, like, what are some of the main characteristics of... We can talk about... A- and by the way, like, we, we have crypto in, in, in MercadoLibre. Uh, we have our own cryptocurrency, so it's not like we, uh, to say, like, well, crypto is, is, uh, not useful. And, and it's actually very useful in, uh, in Latin America and countries where, uh, access to, to US dollars are, uh... I- i- it's not as easy as, uh, in, in other places. Uh, but I think going from that to saying like, okay, every single thing on the planet is gonna run on, uh, on the blockchain, that's where some of my alarms start to go off. And it's like, well, it can be a great technology and it can be very successful without having to take over the, the world, uh, which can also turn into AI where again, the claims are that, uh, it will take over the, the, the world (laughs) . And, and, and happy to talk about that. But just understanding the, the, uh, the fundamentals of the technology that's being potentially hyped and, uh, having a good understanding of how it could be applied to something useful for, for people, uh, I think it's where it's

  8. 44:24 – 49:00

    When Steve Jobs personally called 17-year-old Sebastian

    1. SB

      been helpful.

    2. LR

      Awesome. Okay. Let's pivot to talking about you as a human. There's just, like, so many stories I heard from people that, uh, I wanna hear about. Okay, so one is that you built an app, you put it in the App Store. Steve Jobs called you and he's like, "Sebastian, we gotta remove your app."

    3. SB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    4. LR

      Talk about that story.

    5. SB

      Yeah. So the- w- we should clarify that the app was a bit strange. Uh, so it was an, an, an app that literally helped you drain your phone's battery. You know, the, the, the... There were two reasons why, why I made it. One was because I was, like, learning about all the different sensors on the, on the phone, like GPS and gyroscope and, and, and, and the screen and, and, and whatnot. So I said, okay, I'm gonna turn them all on at the same time, uh, (laughs) and that's gonna, uh, really warm up your, your phone. Um, on the other end, uh, there was, like, this, this trend, I'm not even sure where, where the- that ended up, where it was better for your phone to run completely out of battery and then recharge it. Uh, I think now the recommendation is actually that it should stay between, like, 10% and 80%, uh, at all times to, to maintain battery health. I was like, okay, so the... when you have, like, 2% left and you just wanna get it over with and, and, and get the battery down, you open this app and, (laughs) like, drain it. Um, so-

    6. LR

      I like that there's a reason for this. (laughs) 'Cause I would- I could see you just doing it for fun, but I like there's functionality here.

    7. SB

      Yeah, yeah. I, I always try to make it useful, uh-

    8. LR

      Okay.

    9. SB

      ... at least for, for me. So I put it on, on, on the App Store, and, and this was the time where, um, like, the App Store was starting and, and the app review process and, and, uh, people were actually getting very mad that their apps were getting rejected. We're used to, like, a world where I just put my app out there and anyone can download it. So developers were, were going to the press to say like, "Well, Apple is not approving my app," and then articles would be written and it would be, like, a, a, a PR thing. So the executive team at Apple, including Steve, uh, were actually calling developers, uh, to inform them that their apps were not gonna be approved, that they were gonna have to take them off the, uh, off the App Store. Uh, kind of like trying to avoid them going to the press and, and just, like, being more personal and explaining what, uh, what was wrong with, with the app. And so, so one day I'm walking i- in the street and, and I get a phone and a blocked, uh, number, like, I can't identify it. Pick up, uh, and so, "Well, uh, hi, it's Sebastian. This is Steve from Apple. I'm here to... Well, I'm, uh, I need to talk to you about your, your app. Uh, we're not gonna be able to, to have it on the App Store. This is draining people's batteries and, and we don't want that for, uh, for people." Uh, I actually pushed back a little bit, uh, and so like, "Well, you know, I, I read all the rules, uh, of, of the App Store before making this app, and there's no rule against draining the, the battery." Uh, and he told me, "Check again, 'cause we just added a new rule, uh, that apps cannot overly drain the, the, uh, the battery on, on the phones." So I'm happy to say there is an App Store rule that, uh, is- was made specifically for, for me, uh, at the time. I actually didn't realize I had, uh, spoken to Steve Jobs until, like, a couple of minutes later. It was like, "Well, yeah, someone called Steve from Apple. There's probably a lot of Steves." And I was like, "Well, you know, that, that voice sounded extremely familiar." And, uh, I was like, "Okay." A- and then articles started popping up of, like, Steve and, and the rest of the executive team, uh, calling developers to, to (laughs) let them know that, that this was happening. Uh, so I was happy to confirm that I had, uh, at least had a, a short phone conversation with, with Steve. Uh, quite the legend.

    10. LR

      That is an incredible story. First of all, I just love that Steve Jobs was calling random app developers himself.

    11. SB

      Founder mode, right?

    12. LR

      (laughs) Like, how did he have the time? I just love that he took... You know, that they realized this is important, and if people hear from us that'll actually go over better, uh, even though people kept posting, right? Like, people were like, "Steve Jobs called me, she touched on my app." So a little backfired maybe. Uh, any... How did he sound? Was he just like... Did he... Was he this nice radical candor balance of, of nice and direct?

    13. SB

      Yeah, yeah. Uh, a- and it's not what you would, again, stereotypically hear from him. No. So, uh, he was a lot more mercurial, I think is the term that, that people use. Uh, but none of that on, on the call. He was actually pretty nice and, and, and chill-

    14. LR

      Wow.

    15. SB

      ... and said like, "Well, we're not gonna allow your app." And-

    16. LR

      Just matter of fact.

    17. SB

      Uh, yeah.

    18. LR

      Uh, and then, you, you said that they added this rule as they... (laughs)

    19. SB

      Yeah.

    20. LR

      (laughs) Before he called you. "We have a new rule." I guess they could do that, right? It's like our place, our store.

  9. 49:00 – 55:33

    Building successful app businesses

    1. LR

      Wow, okay. Amazing story. Uh, did that discourage you from building more apps? Or were you just like, "Holy shit, this is-"

    2. SB

      No, absolutely not.

    3. LR

      "... even more exciting."

    4. SB

      I was very happy to talk to Steve. I, I sent him a few, uh, emails. Uh, I never got a reply, to be honest, but, uh, sent some emails on, on feedback, on, again, like the App Store, the iOS, and whatnot. I was super young, by the way, at the time. I think I was like, uh, 16 or, or 17, 17 or 18 when, uh, when I developed that, that app. Uh, so I was like ... Yeah, I don't know what it meant, you know, to, to, to get a call from him, and, and, uh, to send him emails and expect a, a reply and, and whatnot. Uh, so it was a, a fun experience, and, um, I, I kept building more apps. I actually started a mobile app development company, um, a few, uh, months after, after that, which is another, another fun story.

    5. LR

      Well, maybe this is the story, but I know that at 19 you built an app that became the number one app in 19 countries. Maybe just briefly share that story.

    6. SB

      That one is super fun. Um, so I had a girlfriend who I really liked at the time. I don't know if, if, if that happened in the US, but in many Latin American countries, and I think around the world, the phone companies came out with something where you could call five numbers for five minutes for free, like a five for five for five. So I had my girlfriend's number on there, and we would talk for, for, for five minutes. But what they did is if you went over like one second, they would charge the whole five minutes. Uh, uh, and, and, and phone bills were expensive. Now, uh, we're gonna sound like old people when, when we talk about this soon. That was like a, a big deal, especially for, for, for a teenager. You know, I, I didn't have like money to throw around and, and, uh, on, on, on my phone bill. So I made this app that was extremely simple. It alarmed you, or like it sent a, a notification when you're close to reaching the five minutes, so you could just hang up and call again and have another five free minutes, and then call again. I did it for myself. Uh, it turned out to be a good investment, 'cause I ended up marrying my, uh, girlfriend. Uh, and she's still my wife, and we have a, a, a beautiful family together. Um, it also turned out to be a, a good business decision. So it cost $100, I think it still does, to, to upload an app to the App Store. I thought, "Okay, I need to sell like around 100 copies." I mean, there are fees and whatnot, but let's say I have to sell 100 copies for $1. So I'll, I'll put it on the App Store. That was my business plan, and it absolutely exploded. Uh, it became the top-selling app in Mexico and, and a lot of other different countries. Uh, it was not, not a free app. Uh, and it was also like completely local, so there was like no backend, no cost, no advertising. Uh, so it was a, uh, a very profitable, uh, endeavor that also very quickly turned into a, a, a business in itself, you know? But, uh, and, and then, uh, a separate business where people ... This was when the, the App Store was just starting, when the iPhone was, w- was getting big. Uh, so I actually got contacted by a lot of different companies, like multinationals, governments. You know, saying like, "Well, you have the number one app, so we want you to build an app for us." Uh, there weren't that many people. Into, uh, iPhone OS, at the time it was called, uh, development,

    7. NA

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      ... who knew Objective-C and, and all the ways to, to, to build a, a good app. So I started building apps myself for a bunch of different people and companies. Um, eventually I couldn't scale that and had to hire people, so I hired my friends from, (laughs) from college and taught them how to do, uh, apps. Uh, we actually all learned from a, a free online course, uh, from Stanford. It was a great course on, on, on how to build apps. Um, 'cause I, I remember going to, to my university professors and saying, "Hey, the iPhone is cool. I wanna learn how to, like, make these apps. Who can teach me?" And they're like, "No one." Like, this is new. Like, no one knows how to, um, how to do it. So I also had to learn on my, on my own, but then I was able to, to teach people, turned that into a mobile app devel- company. Did that for about two years, uh, and it turns out to be a very good business. But it's also like boring to have to start over, new projects and new projects and new projects. I, I like going deep into things and iterating and, and actually creating products that, that, that people love. Um, so we decided to sell the consulting side of, of that, keep the, the mainly mobile team, uh, and start working on fun products, uh, that we could, uh, like actually scale and scale exponentially. One of those was ordering, ordering taxis from your phone. You know, so at the time, uh, Uber was starting in, in San Francisco, they started kind of like a private network of, of, of drivers and like fancy cars, and, uh, uh, eventually it was opened to, uh, to a lot of people. So I thought, well, that would work great for, for taxis in, in Mexico City. It's, uh, it's a city with the most taxis on the planet, uh, at least outside, um, Asia. And the, the ... At the time in San Francisco, for example, at least taxis had kind of like a, a clunky computer and they were like, at least tracked by GPS whatnot. But like in Mexico, they, they used radios and you had to call, uh, a number and you never knew if your taxi was coming or not. So we developed a very simple test. It sounds silly now that these companies are, are huge, but I was actually like not sure, are, are people gonna trust, uh, getting on a car that they got from a phone in Mexico City, uh, when your parents have told you like, "Don't trust people on the internet and, and don't get into strangers' cars." So we're like combining two things that, that, that people were taught not to do by their, by their parents. We decided to just do the passenger app, uh, and test whether people, uh, actually liked this. So when you requested a car, we would call, uh, a taxi company and basically just call for you and send the, the, the car over, and that was enough for it to explode. Like, we could not deal with the demand. We actually had to build like a- an intermediary call center to like call other call centers, uh, while we developed the driver's side of the, of the marketplace, and, and actually got drivers on, on board. And once you got the flywheel and, and you got a lot of drivers and a lot of riders and the network effects, uh, then it started to, to scale and, and work. Uh, that was a, uh, a fun experience.

    9. LR

      Oh, man. You're just a well of fascinating stories.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. LR

      I love this kind of journey you've sharing of just like, at 16 I think you built that app that Steve Jobs called you about, is that right?

    12. SB

      Yeah. Yeah, maybe 17.

    13. LR

      Okay.

    14. SB

      So, yeah.

    15. LR

      S- okay. From that to now managing something like 18,000 engineers. I, I love this journey. Uh, also competing with Uber along the way.

    16. SB

      Yeah. Yeah. Very intense competition.

    17. LR

      (laughs) Okay.

    18. SB

      I've always enjoyed competition.

    19. LR

      (laughs) Yeah. That's the epitome of intense competition

  10. 55:33 – 1:04:00

    Unique personal habits

    1. LR

      from what I hear. Uh, okay another, uh, interesting thing about you that I've heard is that you drink, you drink no alcohol which I think is common these days but it's something you've been doing for a long time, you also drink no tea, no coffee, no juice, no soda, just water. What's going on there? Why is that?

    2. SB

      I just love water. (laughs)

    3. LR

      (laughs) I just love water.

    4. SB

      Uh, wa- water is, is amazing. Uh, I think that it, it, i- it's not the, like the same reason for, for everything. It has turned now into, like, well, I'm happy with water, like, why do I have to, like, alter my brain with, uh, chemicals. Like, I like my brain. We have a, a good relationship (laughs) and, uh, I, uh, I sleep well and I, I don't feel like I need, uh, stimulants of, of, of any kind. Uh, I already have, uh, (laughs) a lot of fun. Uh, it, it, it did start in different ways so, uh, the, the legal drinking age in, in Mexico is 18, um, a lot, l- like, younger than, than in the US, uh, so people actually start drinking when they're 16, right? Uh, so very early I got to see, like, the effects of at least drinking a lot can have on, on, on your body and, and, uh, I just never wanted to be in, in that situation where I didn't have, like, control of, of my destiny and, and, and I mean, "control" right, we don't have a lot of control in our destinies but at least you know like physical control of like, I wanna walk there and can I walk there? Uh, to, I, I think that really marks you when you see (laughs) like young people over-drinking, it's not a, uh, uh, a fun picture. Then I understand people, like adults, can drink responsibly and, and have fun with, with friends and whatnot but I never got into it and I, I think if you, i- i- it's like an acquired taste, uh, I don't particularly enjoy the, the flavor of, like, beer and, and, and different alcohols. Coffee, it's also similar. I don't like how it tastes. It tastes extremely bitter to me. I also think it's an acquired taste where it's like, okay, well the effect is great 'cause I get like a lot of energy and then you start to, like, appreciate the, the flavor but I don't think it starts (laughs) with the, with the flavor so again, I never got into it. Uh, tea I think is i- is something that I could drink but I just never think of, uh, of drinking it, uh, and I'll probably raise you even one stranger that, uh, I don't know if my, my, uh, the friends you, you interviewed mentioned, but I actually also don't listen to a lot of music. Uh, so, uh, when I program-

    5. LR

      Hmm. Had not heard that.

    6. SB

      ... I like to program in silence, uh, which I know seems, like, extremely strange to, to, to a lot of programmers and, and developers, uh, and I think the reason for that one, and also talking about the, the interesting background is my, my dad's an orchestra conductor, uh, so I went to maybe like hundreds of concerts, uh, for big orchestras and backstage and it was actually, uh, very fun, but I think I had enough music for, for, for a while. Uh, and it's not like I don't enjoy music, my wife is really into music and we listen to music together, uh, and with our kids and, and everything, but I, I never have, like, the idea of, uh, of putting on music myself. So that's another strange one to share.

    7. LR

      That was a good one. I had not heard (laughs) that one. Uh, and then another couple of things I heard is that you basically don't do any social media, you also don't watch the news, uh, you don't watch TV really? Is that all true?

    8. SB

      That is true. That is true. Uh, for a really long time we didn't even have a TV, like of- uh, like the device. No. Uh, we, we bought one, uh, when, uh, my son was born and we couldn't go to the movies anymore, 'cause I do like, like media. You know? I like, I, I like movies from time to time. Uh, we do watch shows from time to time but we can watch them on an iPad. I think it's a lot less, uh, addictive if the, if the screen is small. Uh, so e- even though we have a, a TV now, we don't, we don't use it very often. Um, I love reading. Um, I lo- the... A- and the, the social media thing, I think it's worth, uh, qualifying as well, like, I enjoy X a lot, like Twitter, uh, and reading, like, what people are thinking, what's happening, what's not happening, uh, that's probably, like, my, my main source of news. Uh, I don't follow any, like, news organizations just because I feel like I'm gonna find out if something extremely important is happening. Uh, like now the, the, the, the whole political and geopolitical environment is extremely volatile and I hear about that from, like, people tha- that I follow and sometimes I'll retweet articles and, and then I'll read them. Um, I did... There was a, a fun memory of my childhood when we had a TV in the, uh, in the house (laughs) and, and my mom, who's also a very curious character, stuck a, uh, a sign to it that said, "Everything you see here is a lie." (laughs) Uh...

    9. LR

      She stuck the sign to the front, to the TV for the sign on TV?

    10. SB

      Yeah. I don't think she meant it for, like, news and she didn't get into the whole misinformation thing and, and, and whatnot, it was mostly on like, "Well, you're gonna watch cartoons of, like, people flying and be careful, like, don't jump off the, the roof of the house," and I think that was more, more, uh, in that sense but it probably stuck with me of, uh, like, being very independent minded and do your own research and, and, uh, actually understand what you're, uh, hoping for and, and what you want to do. Again, I'm not like, uh, closing my ears and eyes to, to what's happening in, in the world and I do follow a lot of, uh, like tech coverage and, and that I enjoy a lot, like new programming languages, new frameworks, new model developments, uh, so when I talk about news it's probably, like-... the bad news that I think people can sometimes even get addicted to of like, okay, if I turn on the TV and put the local news cha- channel, it's just going to be bad news. Uh, and I know that, like, statistically it's not all bad news, so why am I going to, like, watch a show that's pointing out very unique things that don't happen very often that are, uh, not happy stories?

    11. LR

      I don't know who said this once, but it's always stuck with me along these lines of what you just said, that we're just not designed to know all the bad things happening in the world every day. Like, we lived in small tribes where if a couple, maybe something bad happened that day. We're not evolved to g- comprehend s- so many calamities globally that we should not even know about.

    12. SB

      Absolutely, right? Out of, uh, uh, I can't imagine our brains were, um, evolved into, well, you know, you open your phone and you get, like, unlimited information about any single topic that, that you want. Um, I think you have to be, like, purposeful of what you're reading, what you're seeing. You can find absolutely anything, amazing things, horrible things. So why am I going to, like, focus on the horrible things?

    13. LR

      I love that, and I feel the same way. Uh, this is such a cool glimpse into just what it takes to be, uh, extremely successful, to go from building this app that Steve Jobs shut down to running a company and a team this size. Uh, is there anything else along those lines that we haven't talked about that might be helpful for folks, either about how you operate as a human, morning routine, trick? I don't know. Anything else that we haven't touched on along those lines?

    14. SB

      I don't have a, uh, a strict a routine as you would expect when you talk, like, to executives and, and whatnot, like, "Well, this is the time that I do this, the time that I do this." Uh, I think what's worked great for me is to follow my curiosity. Uh, thankfully, I think I have good intuition, uh, but even like in, in life and, and in my work, uh, like, un- it's hard to say like, "Well, this is a formula for what you should focus on today." No, it's like, I have an intuition of what I'm most curious about, uh, and, and thankfully that usually aligns with what we should be working on and, and where I can add the, the most value to, to my teams, to, to the company, to my family, to my career, to, to, to the things I'm learning. Um, so I think that, that's probably what's been the guiding principle for me. You know, like, follow your, your curiosity, what excites you, uh, it's also probably what you're gonna be good at, oh, because it, it's hard to compete with someone who loves what they're doing if you don't love that thing, you know. But if you go in and say, "Well, this is my curiosity, this is what I love," uh, I'm probably gonna be good at it and, and it's not gonna be like something I have to force myself into. You know, so I think that that's something that I've done throughout my whole life and, and career that's,

  11. 1:04:00 – 1:07:15

    Raising independent children

    1. SB

      uh, worked very well.

    2. LR

      I had Tobi Lutke on the podcast and we were chatting, talking about raising kids for a little bit, and we chatted about what do you want your kid to learn most, like what's the most important trait to develop? And his, his inkling is developing curiosity.

    3. SB

      Developing curiosity. I think I, I, I would agree. I think the, the, the other one that you need is probably, it's also a trending topic now, but agency. Something like it's not probably enough to just be curious, but like, be curious and, and, and go get what you, what you want. Uh, we were raised in a very, uh, intensely independent way. Also, my, uh, my mother mainly, uh, had these fun ideas on, on how she wanted us to, to be. You know, she wanted us to be able to handle, quote unquote, "any situation." And, uh, the analogy that, that she used is that she wanted to train us like spies. Uh, so, so-

    4. LR

      I was, I was thinking Sparta.

    5. SB

      Yeah. That's-

    6. LR

      (laughs) Spartans.

    7. SB

      Well, I'll, I'll, I'll share one fun story. Uh, one, one morning she wakes us up like, "Hey, we're going camping. Uh, everyone get ready." Like, no warning. "Oh, we're, we're leaving right now." Uh, I remember, uh, my, my little brother, j- so you understand how, how, how that plan work, his only question was, "Should I go in my pajamas or should I change, uh," or something. (laughs) Uh, so we go and, uh, turns out we're, we're ... I, I think it would be actually hard to call it camping because we, we were camping with no gear. You know, so it was a, a survival camp training, uh, is what we were going to do. Uh, there was an instructor and it wasn't like, uh, completely, uh, irresponsible, but it was like, find your own water, build your own shelter, boil it, start your own fire. Uh, that was a fun one. Uh, another fun one, and that was to celebrate New Year's. Um, another fun one was she would drop us in the, like in the middle of the city, this is Mexico City. Uh, she says she would then just like leave us alone. I don't remember, I think she was just following us. But, uh, it would be like, "You have to get back home." Uh, and then you have to like know public transit or ask someone for help and basically like, uh, solve problems. Uh, she would send us on international trips also alone. So I, I think there, there were many things that she did. Uh, she, she called it independence. You know, she, she wanted us to be independent. I think the term that we could use now is like agency of like solve your problems, just go and get things and, and, and get things done. Uh, so I think that was also very formative of, of, of the way I am and I approach, uh, different problems.

    8. LR

      Do you feel like she might have actually been training you to be a spy?

    9. SB

      Maybe. We, we also did a lot of, uh, skiing, biking, uh, trekking and, and, you know, like also the action parts of the, uh, of the spy experience. Uh, we, we used to tease her still that she, she didn't enjoy activities that didn't have like a liability release, uh, before you, uh, before you did them. Uh, so yeah, rappel, climbing.

    10. LR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SB

      Uh, yeah, a, a very fun childhood.

    12. LR

      This explains a lot. I feel like I could do another hour just diving into your childhood and, and what made you who you are today, but maybe we'll save that for part two.Uh,

  12. 1:07:15 – 1:16:28

    Lightning round and final thoughts

    1. LR

      I feel like we've did a, uh, we've done a great job giving people a sense of just how interesting you are as a person, and also just the uniqueness of MercadoLibre and what they built in the business that you help run. Is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you think might be helpful to folks, or that you want to leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

    2. SB

      I think we covered a lot. I'm also, uh, happy to, to be able to share. You know, M- MercadoLibre doesn't operate in the US. I think that's the main reason why it's, like, not a, a, a, a such a well-known, uh, tech company. I think it's changing, uh, with the stock growing as well, it, it helps like a lot of people actually, uh, know it from investing and, and, and being very happy with the, with the performance. Uh, so thank you for, for, for letting me share some of what we do and some of what I've been doing.

    3. LR

      Absolutely. And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. (lightning strike sound) I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

    4. SB

      I'm ready.

    5. LR

      What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

    6. SB

      This is a good one. I think it, it depends on, like, the, the person that I'm recommending it to. I, I try to actually make it relevant to, to what they're doing. Uh, if we go, like, statistically, uh, it's usually within the company, so, uh, management related. High Output Management I think is a, is a great one. Uh, but also ha- have been recently recommending people read The Odyssey. Uh, it's a super, super, uh, like, inspiring, uh, story. Like, there, it's not a coincidence that it's, uh, survived for, for, for thousands of years. It's, like, a really fun read and, and, uh, something that just resonates with, uh, with a lot of people. Um, another book that, that I really like, it's called The Dream Machine. Uh, and it's kind of like the, the, the story of, uh, computers and computing and, uh, the internet and, and, uh, like, for example, why is ethernet called ethernet? Uh, there was alohanet before. Uh, so I think that's also a great one to, to understand some of, like, the things tha- th- that we rely on and, and these sort of like we stand in the shoulders of, of giants constantly, you know, to, to build the things we do. I think that's, that's another great one, and, 'cause the rest are probably more fiction, and I love Dune, I love science fiction, and, uh, what you would expect.

    7. LR

      Okay, (clears throat) this next question, I know you don't watch TV, so let me just ask, is there a favorite recent movie that you've watched that you really enjoyed?

    8. SB

      Yeah, yeah, I, I mean recent, uh, I, I don't go to the movies as often as I used to since I, uh, had kids. Uh, sometimes we, we, we go with them. But I think probably the, the last one that resonated with me or that I thought was awesome was Everything Everywhere All at Once. Uh, just really fun movie, great acting, low budget. I didn't know when, when I watched it at the time. I sort of like did, did research on it later. Uh, that one was, was super fun. Uh, Dune I enjoyed a lot, because, uh, I like the, the books. It's one of my favorite books. Uh, but I do (laughs) watch, uh, children's shows, you know, uh, from time to time. There I'm sure someone has probably mentioned Bluey already. Uh, but it's amazing. Uh, it's really well made for the kids, for the parents, uh, great messages, uh, great animation. That's just, uh, uh, a gem that, that I really recommend.

    9. LR

      Yeah, Bluey does come up a bunch. I feel like (clears throat) it's one of the more mentioned (laughs) , uh, shows

    10. SB

      You interview a lot of parents as well then.

    11. LR

      I guess I do, and I'm, I'm a new parent, so I think that I'm pulling them in. (laughs) Uh, okay. Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love?

    12. SB

      Yeah. This one is gonna be fun, uh, for you as well as a parent. Uh, I'm not sure if you've heard of Mentava. Uh, so it's a-

    13. LR

      No.

    14. SB

      It's a new kind of like way of teaching, uh, kids to read. Uh, they-

    15. LR

      Oh, the company?

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. LR

      Okay, yes. I'd say more.

    18. SB

      Yeah, yeah. Uh, so that, I mean, it's a product, and it's great. I, uh, did it with my son, and, um, kind of like, I "taught him how to read" using the, um, the program. Uh, and now he's probably the, the top reader in, in, in his class. Uh-

    19. LR

      How old is he?

    20. SB

      So, so he's, uh, five. Uh, and it's actually designed for three, four, five year olds, uh, so he was probably late to, to, to the reading early bandwagon, because, uh, I haven't really, uh, seen strong evidence that it actually changes outcomes, uh, in the future. The best argument I've, uh, I've seen for it, uh, from Matt Bateman, um, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him but he's great on, on education and, and, and Montessori, is that it can lead to a very enjoyable childhood if you can read early. So if you're like a, a four year old, uh, a five year old that can read very well, y- you'll have one childhood with access to, to, to a lot more information. Uh, so for us it wasn't like a, a reading early, it was just making sure you have a really good fundamental on, uh, on reading, 'cause it's just a base skill that, uh, propagates to, to the rest. And in that vein actually, uh, Beast Academy for math is another great one that, uh, I, I would recommend to, uh, to parents. Uh, that one's great. Uh, and maybe the, the last product that I would mention, um, David protein bars. They're very good. I, uh, really like weightlifting. It's i- it's sort of like one of the things I do to get my, my, my blood flowing. Um, super high quality ingredients, very high protein. Uh, I think it's actually a venture backed company. I've, haven't talked to the founders, but reach out. Uh, I would love to, to meet you. You guys are doing something fun. Uh, I think tho- those are the ones that come to mind. 3D printers are also fun. I made a telescope with my son a couple of months ago. That was very fun. Yeah. There's a lot of new products now. It, it, it's a, a fun time to be alive.

    21. LR

      This is your category right here. Cool, fun gadgets and products. (laughs)

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. LR

      I feel like we... This could be another hour of podcasting.

    24. SB

      Probably.

    25. LR

      Okay, two more questions. One, do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, find useful in work or in life?

    26. SB

      Yeah.... that life and the world are malleable. You know, like, th- things aren't as set in stone as, uh, as you would think. There's usually a way to, to, to get what you're after. Uh, you actually have to be careful, I think, about what you want, because if you have, like, enough agency, you can probably get, quote unquote, anything. So make sure you're, uh, looking for, for, for something good and that you're going to be happy with the, with the result. But that's probably the main one. I've heard it phrased in many different ways. Uh, Steve Jobs said of like, "Well, you know, the world was built by people like you, like me, uh, some of them not smarter than you, some of them maybe smarter than you. Uh, so you can just go out and, and do things," is a new meme, you know? And, and, uh, the world will probably reconfigure itself to, to help you, which is, that, that one's from, from Marc Andreessen. Uh, yeah, just understanding that, that you can, uh, actually change the world. It doesn't have to be in a massive way. It's also possible, uh, just in, uh, not just getting locked down to, "Well, you know, this is how it's done," or, "This is the culture here," or, uh, "This is how it's always been done." Uh, I think we can change whatever we want.

    27. LR

      What I'm hearing is your mom's goal of instilling agency in you worked.

    28. SB

      (laughs) I would say so. Uh, yes, I, uh, I have fun solving problems.

    29. LR

      Just finding your way home from the center of Mexico City worked. Final question. Uh, a colleague of yours, maybe friend, Christopher Lazarus wanted me to ask you about something called the tatami project. Does that ring a bell? Talk about what that was.

    30. SB

      Yeah, yeah. Th- that's from a long time ago. So you did your-

Episode duration: 1:19:24

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