Skip to content
Lenny's PodcastLenny's Podcast

Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, altMBA, Section4)

Wes Kao has worked with Seth Godin (where she co-founded the altMBA and served as executive director), David Perell on his Write of Passage course, Professor Scott Galloway on Section4, and Morning Brew. Currently, she’s the co-founder of Maven, a cohort-based learning platform where I taught my own course. Wes is passionate about telling stories that stay true to the creator’s intentions while keeping your audience listening. In today’s episode, you will learn how to use state changes to keep your audience engaged, how to communicate more clearly by focusing on the how more than the why, how to manage up for success, and how to communicate your priorities to set a boundary. — Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/persuasive-communication-and-managing-up-wes-kao-maven-seth-godin-section4/#transcription — Where to find Wes Kao: • Website: https://www.weskao.com/ • Twitter: https://twitter.com/wes_kao • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weskao/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible: • Modern Treasury: https://www.moderntreasury.com/ • Berbix: https://www.berbix.com/start • Makelog: https://www.makelog.com/lenny — Referenced: • The Super Specific How: How to make your cohort-based course more rigorous: https://www.weskao.com/blog/super-specific-how • It Was the Best of Sentences, It Was the Worst of Sentences: A Writer’s Guide to Crafting Killer Sentences: https://www.amazon.com/Was-Best-Sentences-Worst-Crafting/dp/158008740X • Guide to Better Business Writing (HBR Guide Series): https://www.amazon.com/HBR-Guide-Better-Business-Writing/dp/142218403X • Seth Godin’s blog: https://seths.blog/ • The Minto Pyramid Principle: Logic in Writing, Thinking, and Problem Solving: https://www.amazon.com/Minto-Pyramid-Principle-Writing-Thinking/dp/0960191038 • Doctor Foster: https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Foster/dp/B01DT0WQ2C • Suzy Batiz: https://www.suzybatiz.com/ • Amanda Natividad’s Marketing 201 course: https://maven.com/amandanat/content-marketing • Dr. Marily Nika’s course:  https://maven.com/marily-nika/technical-product-management — In this episode, we cover: [00:00] Wes’s early career [07:08] How to land a job with Seth Godin [09:56] What makes Seth Godin stand apart [14:50] Wes’s framework for better writing: the super-specific how [18:08] Writing and teaching without the BS [21:45] State changes: how to keep your audience engaged when teaching [25:51] The data of “eyes light up” moments [29:27] What managing up can do for you [32:51] How to manage up effectively [34:17] Lenny’s template for proactive communication [36:19] The skills you need to communicate clearly through writing [43:50] How to protect your bandwidth (without having to say no to your boss) [47:32] How Lenny sets priorities and communicates them [48:24] Lightning round! — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquires about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Wes KaoguestLenny Rachitskyhost
Aug 27, 202253mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Mastering persuasion, teaching, and managing up with Wes Kao

  1. Lenny Rachitsky interviews Wes Kao, co-founder of Maven and co-creator of Seth Godin’s altMBA, about practical frameworks for communication, teaching, and career growth.
  2. They unpack concepts like the “Super Specific How,” the “content hierarchy of BS,” and the “state change method” for making talks and meetings far more engaging.
  3. Wes shares concrete tactics for managing up, over-communicating with managers, and structuring writing so it’s clearer, more persuasive, and less confusing.
  4. They also dive into saying no through framing trade-offs, spotting “eyes light up” moments as feedback on your messaging, and why cohort-based courses force a higher standard of rigor than most content formats.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Focus less on ‘what and why’ and more on the ‘Super Specific How.’

Most readers already agree with your premise; they’re hungry for concrete, step-by-step guidance, nuanced examples, and applications they can actually use.

Cut long intros and “start right before you get eaten by the bear.”

Trim backstory and context-setting; jump in at the most interesting, high-stakes moment so you hook attention and respect your audience’s time.

Design talks and meetings around frequent state changes, not monologues.

Every 3–5 minutes, shift the audience’s state—use chat prompts, polls, screen-sharing, breakouts, or other voices—to keep people alert and engaged on Zoom.

Watch for ‘eyes light up’ moments to refine your pitch and content.

Facial expressions and body language are better signals than polite words; double down on the angles, phrases, and topics that visibly energize people.

Managing up is a core career skill, not an optional extra.

Proactively keep your manager in the loop, share your reasoning, and avoid surprises; this builds trust, unlocks opportunities, and is a major reason senior people get promoted.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Don’t take yourself out of the running before you get rejected.

— Wes Kao

Most writers spend too much time on the what and the why, and not enough time on how.

— Wes Kao

In a cohort-based course where your students are right there with you, there’s very little room for BS.

— Wes Kao

Avoid surprises. In a work context, surprises are generally not great.

— Wes Kao

By talking about trade-offs, you protect your bandwidth without actually even having to say the word no.

— Wes Kao

Wes Kao’s unconventional career path and work with Seth Godin and altMBAThe “Super Specific How” and cutting fluff from contentThe content hierarchy of BS and why courses demand rigorThe state change method for engaging talks and Zoom meetingsUsing “eyes light up” moments as real-time audience feedbackManaging up: why it matters and how to do it effectivelyWriting and communication craft, including saying no and framing trade-offs

High quality AI-generated summary created from speaker-labeled transcript.

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome