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Reflections on a movement | Eric Ries (creator of the Lean Startup methodology)

Eric Ries is the creator of the Lean Startup methodology, author of the New York Times bestseller The Lean Startup, and founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange (LTSE). He’s also a multi-time founder and currently advises startups, VC firms, and larger companies on business and product strategy. In today’s episode, we discuss: • The current state of the Lean Startup methodology • Common misconceptions about the Lean Startup methodology • Understanding how to actually think about MVPs (minimum viable products) • When to pivot and when to stay the course • Thoughts on AI and how to deal with uncertainty • How to structure your company around core values and create products that benefit humanity • The philosophy behind Eric’s current big idea: the Long-Term Stock Exchange • Much more — Brought to you by Sanity—The most customizable content layer to power your growth engine: https://www.sanity.io/lenny | Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams: https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc | LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business: https://www.linkedin.com/podlenny Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/reflections-on-a-movement-eric-ries-creator-of-the-lean-startup-methodology/ Where to find Eric Ries: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries/ • X: https://twitter.com/ericries • Website: https://theleanstartup.com/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Eric’s background (04:46) Eric’s recent activities and projects (06:23) Eric’s start in advising and first-principles thinking (10:56) Lessons from designing the Lean Startup process (14:04) The current state of lean startup methodology (22:33) Common misconceptions about the methodology (24:28) Changes Eric would make in an updated version of Lean Startup (27:52) An explanation of minimum viable product (MVP) and why Eric still stands by the process (37:36) An example of “Less is more” (41:24) More on MVPs and the importance of testing your hypotheses  (41:24) How LTSE had to pivot after a partnership fell apart (48:37) Eric’s take on the concept of craft (53:36) Why getting fired for standing by your conviction can be a career accelerator (55:17) Tech’s mental health crisis (56:28) Advice for founders stuck in a “zombie company” (1:00:16) How continuous pivots shape a company’s vision, with a real-life story (1:08:20) Challenges in assessing companies from an external perspective (1:13:17) Practical advice for businesses considering a pivot (1:18:42) The impact of artificial intelligence (1:26:59) The current capabilities of ChatGPT and its potential use as an equalizer in the marketplace (1:31:26) Eric’s current work with founders on human flourishing (1:42:40) Advice for founders who want to build ethical companies  (1:49:37) Examples of first-principles thinking (1:53:42) Why shareholder primacy theory is wrong (1:55:19) The “spiritual holding company”  (1:58:12) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Eric RiesguestLenny Rachitskyhost
Oct 28, 20232h 14mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Eric Ries Rethinks Lean Startups, MVPs, Pivots, AI, And Purpose

  1. Eric Ries reflects on the evolution and widespread adoption of the Lean Startup methodology, how its once-controversial ideas (like MVPs and pivots) have become default startup vocabulary, and the many ways they’re still misunderstood. He reframes MVPs as rigorous learning tools rather than low-quality products, explains when and how to pivot versus persist, and stresses that most early work will be thrown away—so founders should minimize wasteful building.
  2. Ries explores how AI will reshape product development and management, arguing it massively increases experimentation speed and forces companies to confront governance, alignment, and long-term responsibility. He urges founders to build organizations structurally committed to human flourishing, not just shareholder returns, and to encode their values into governance before it’s “too late.”
  3. Throughout, he highlights the psychological realities of entrepreneurship—founder mental health, ego, narrative distortion, and the pain of zombie companies that won’t die—while encouraging founders to build companies they’re proud of, even if that means risking failure or getting fired. He closes by calling for a new movement of founders who use their structural power to demand long-term, humane, and trustworthy companies.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

MVP means fastest way to learn, not lowest-quality product.

Ries emphasizes that a Minimum Viable Product is whatever lets you most efficiently validate a core hypothesis in your specific context—sometimes that’s a beautiful brochure, a single high-quality feature, or a pre-order test, not a buggy, half-broken app.

Founders dramatically overbuild before testing core assumptions.

Most teams are off by one to two orders of magnitude in how much they think they must build to learn; Ries’s simple heuristic is: list required features, cut in half, then cut in half again and ship that to start learning.

If you’re debating whether to pivot, you likely already know you should.

Ries argues that truly having product–market fit leaves no time for existential questions; persistent doubt is usually a signal to run a time-boxed, all-in experiment on the current idea, then a similarly focused test on a new idea, or shut down and reset the cap table.

Most of your early work will be thrown away, so optimize for learning speed.

Because pivots and major strategic changes are so common, investing heavily in fully polished products too early often results in beautifully crafted but useless artifacts; the real goal is to quickly discover what customers actually value.

Craft and experimentation are complements, not opposites.

Ries distinguishes genuine craft (clear taste, deliberate tradeoffs, thoughtful simplicity) from using “craft” as an excuse to avoid feedback; if you truly care about craft, you should test everything else even more aggressively so your carefully crafted core is pointed at the right problem.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

People act like having a startup fail is the worst thing that can happen to you. I'm like, 'Man, that's not even in the top 10.'

Eric Ries

MVP is simply, for whatever hypothesis we're trying to test, what is the most efficient way to get the validation we need?

Eric Ries

If you’re asking whether you should pivot or not, you probably know the answer already.

Eric Ries

No individual person can ever make promises on behalf of an organization. You’re replaceable. The promises have to be embodied in the structure of the organization itself.

Eric Ries

We are the manufacturers of the thing the system requires for its basic survival. We get to set the terms by which this is done.

Eric Ries

State and evolution of the Lean Startup movementDeep misconceptions about MVPs, pivots, and Lean itselfHow to decide when to pivot versus persevereCraft, quality, and customer expectations in product developmentFounder psychology, mental health, and “zombie” companiesAI’s impact on experimentation, management, and governanceLong-term governance, human flourishing, and the Long-Term Stock Exchange

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