Evan Spiegel: Why software stopped being a moat 15 years ago

Through 'close friends' design and AR Specs hardware investments; Snap built moats software can't copy, and copied features taught Spiegel ecosystems win.

Lenny RachitskyhostEvan Spiegelguest

Apr 26, 20261h 10mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

80 min read · 15,564 words

0:00 – 2:28
Introduction to Evan Spiegel
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You guys have a billion monthly active users. Why is it so freaking hard to build a durable, lasting social consumer product?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  So much of consumer technology focuses on, do I have product market fit? People don't spend nearly enough time thinking about distribution and figuring out distribution.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I feel like Snap has always been punching above its weight in terms of just how much new stuff comes out of your team. Stories, AR glasses, swipe-based navigation.
4. ESEvan Spiegel
  We have a very, very small design team that is constantly innovating and, and creating new things. Your first day that you join the design team, you present work. You're making things. If you wanna have a good idea, you have to have lots of ideas.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  People copy you. As a human, how does it feel just to see this consistently happen?
6. ESEvan Spiegel
  Fifteen years ago, we essentially learned that software is not a moat, which is something that everyone is discovering today with AI.
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You describe this coming year as the crucible moment.
8. ESEvan Spiegel
  It's a real turning point. We're in an industry where so much of the conversation is focused on technology. Humanity is far more important, because humanity dictates how technology is adopted. Technology leaders think that folks will just blindly adopt new technology as it comes out. There's gonna be a huge amount of societal pushback on a lot of the changes that are coming with AI. [gentle music]
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Today my guest is Evan Spiegel, CEO and co-founder of Snap. Evan is one of the very few humans in the world who has successfully built and scaled a lasting consumer social app. In the 15 years since Snapchat launched, there are essentially zero social consumer apps that have launched and stuck around. Snapchat has over one billion monthly active users, is generating over six billion dollars a year in revenue, people post over eight billion AR lens photos a day on Snapchat. And over the years, Evan and his team have invented the concept of Stories, they had the first AR glasses product in the market, they invented swipe-based navigation, the camera being primary, and also back in the day, face swapping, making people look older, and so many of the things that are just copied throughout the entire industry. If this is truly the golden age of consumer products, like many people say AI is going to enable, there's a lot that we can learn about how Evan and his team think and operate and are able to continue innovating. This is a rare podcast interview with Evan, and we cover a lot of ground. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennysproductpass.com for a year free of the hottest and most well-crafted AI products in the world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you
2:28 – 4:31
Why consumer social products are so hard to build
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Evan Spiegel. [gentle music] Evan, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I wanna start with just trying to understand and help people understand, why is it so freaking hard to build a durable, lasting consumer product, and in particular, a social consumer product? And just to give people this context, I don't think people realize this, but since you launched 15 years ago, there's basically, uh, TikTok, which is not really social, it's more of like a media platform, I'd say. And then maybe Threads, which I think is cheating, 'cause it just sits on top of Instagram. Basically nothing else has worked other than Snapchat 15 years ago. And in spite of everyone just... Like, everyone innately just wants to build a consumer product, social app. It's just, like, where everyone first goes. Everybody fails. Nothing works. Why is it so hard? What do you think people don't get?
4. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, I think it's really interesting, you know, in, in terms of the examples that you just shared, right, of, of TikTok and, and Threads, 'cause you, you just shared two examples of people who figured out distribution, and I think that that's actually one of the hardest things to figure out in consumer technology today. We were so fortunate. When we created Snapchat, the mobile phone, you know, and the App Store were just getting started, so people were downloading lots of new apps all the time. They were really excited about trying new, uh, services. You know, Instagram I think had started a year before Snapchat, or something like that. So there was a real appetite to try new apps and new services, and, and that's not the case today. It's a lot harder to get distribution for new ideas and new services. People aren't downloading as many apps now as they used to. And both TikTok and Threads figured out distribution, which is why I think they're more recent examples of success. TikTok did it with money, uh, which I actually thought was really innovative. Uh, they spent billions of dollars subsidizing both sides of their video marketplace, right? Acquiring customers to watch videos, and then paying creators to make videos. And so they were able to bootstrap, uh, you know, their, their ecosystem. And I think with Threads, obviously, they were able to leverage the amazing distribution, uh, that Meta has across all of their other
4:31 – 5:50
How Snapchat cracked distribution with close friends, not network size
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  products. So I, I think so much of consumer technology focuses on, you know, am I building the right product? Do I have product market fit? Have I, you know, built something that's really gonna resonate, uh, with customers that they're really gonna wanna use all the time? And I think people don't spend nearly enough time thinking about, you know, distribution and figuring out distribution, and that seems to me, uh, to be a huge differentiator. So I... You know, as I reflect on the early days of building Snapchat, the thing that we figured out in terms of distribution, especially when it comes to social, was that, you know, back then, people believed that, uh, there was, there were network effects in social networks. That meant that the more people you had using the service, the stickier that it is, right? And so there was no way to beat the biggest networks, because those were the most valuable. And what Snapchat figured out that was, I think, different, was that, you know, despite the fact that there were much bigger networks that connected more people, what really mattered was connecting you to the right people. And so if you could just connect someone not to all their friends, but to their best friend, to their partner, to their spouse, the people that they cared most about in the world, that, that, that's where the majority of the value is in the network. And so that's what really allowed us to grow in those early days. You know, we, we had the benefit of the App Store and mobile distribution, but we also had a different way of growing our service, which wasn't about having the most friends, it was
5:50 – 8:39
Why distribution is the new moat in the AI era
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  about having your close friends.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That is so interesting. It's something that I've been thinking a lot about, actually, this idea of distribution, because of AI. If you think about just where AI has come into the market, it's, it started originally just, like, helping people autocomplete code. That's something I've been talking about a lot on this podcast. So it's like, okay, autocomplete code, okay, now it's writing all our code. Okay, now it's reviewing our code, and now it's testing itself, and now it's gonna help us come up with ideas. So it's like starting in the middle of the product development process and expanding out.And I feel like it will be very good at coming up with great ideas and developing strategy. Like, it's going up the, I don't know, the funnel or the timeline of building a product, and I feel like distribution is where it ends up being-- what ends up being the new moat and the new biggest challenge, uh, because AI's not gonna really help you there. So that's- it's really interesting that that's e-even more so true for consumer products.
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  No, I, I think that's absolutely the case. And, and the only thing I would say is, you know, the most exciting times in technology are when there are new platforms that get created, and that tends to be where a lot of the value comes from. You think about, you know, a lot of the big consumer technology companies today, they were really born out of mobile, right? Whether it, you know, it's Uber, uh, you know, Snapchat, some of those early generation companies that, that really, you know, got distribution and built themselves on mobile. And so I think as we look forward to, you know, sort of these next generation form factors, things like glasses, there's gonna be a whole new set of opportunities and a whole new surface for people to build generational consumer companies, and I'm, I'm really excited about that.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Especially if they have distribution already. Feels like that's gonna be... Like, I'm just worried for startups. It's gonna be very hard to get distribution, just, like, it's-- there's so much launching every day, so much to pay attention to, and it just feels very hard for a startup to get any attention with existing, you know, against existing incumbents. This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Vercel, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by WorkOS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Literally, every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with WorkOS, and that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seed stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise-ready
8:39 – 11:39
Snapchat’s innovation track record (and why software isn’t a moat)
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  today. Something that has always been really interesting to me about Snapchat is it feels like you guys have just innovated so much over the years. You guys basically just invent all the things. Uh, people copy you, [chuckles] benefit greatly from it, and it's just kind of, uh, wild to watch. And just, like, a few examples that come to mind, uh, Stories, you guys created. Uh, you were very early on AR glasses. You guys launched Spectacles before Meta got into the stuff. Uh, swipe-based navigation, I think you guys started. The idea of holding to do a video versus a photo. There's probably a bunch. Uh, first of all, what's the next thing someone's gonna steal, do you think?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Oh, gosh. Well, I just, uh, I, I just saw Instagram Plus launch, so I think that's the latest rip, uh, you know, of, uh-
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Which is a subscription
4. ESEvan Spiegel
  ... Snapchat Plus. Yeah, I think, you know, we just hit twenty-five million subscribers on Snapchat Plus, more than a billion revenue run rate, so was, I think, probably enough to get Meta's attention that it's a good time to, to copy.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And the, and the Plus. [chuckles] He's just even taking the Plus as, as the name. Oh my God. Let me just ask you, like, as a, as a human, how does it... What does it... How does it feel just to see this consistently happen to you? You guys come up with something awesome, someone rips it off, benefits hugely from it, and you just have to keep doing that again and again.
6. ESEvan Spiegel
  You know, it, it's certainly better than making stuff that people don't wanna copy. [chuckles] So I think, uh, you know, in, in many ways it's a blessing that we've been able to continue to innovate, to make new things that really resonate with folks, and that ultimately people wanna end up, uh, you know, copying, uh, from, from Snap. So I th- I think it certainly beats the, the alternative, but it, it does, uh, you know, mean that we have to be really thoughtful about our strategy. And so I think, you know, one of the things... It's, it's been, it's been an interesting time for me to reflect a lot on, you know, our strategy over the last fifteen years because, you know, fifteen years ago, we essentially learned that software is not a moat, right? Which is something that everyone is discovering today with AI, right? But fifteen years ago, because all the software features, uh, that we could create were so easily cloned by our competitors, we started to think about how to build a more durable business, how to build a business, uh, you know, that had bigger and more effective moats. One of the first things we did was focus a lot, uh, on, on building ecosystems, right? Whether those are, you know, the relationships between creators and Snapchatters, whether that's the platform we built around augmented reality where, you know, developers have built millions of these lenses. Uh, so it's, it's very easy to copy hardw- or, you know, software features. It's very hard, uh, to, to copy or to, to replicate a, a full ecosystem or a platform. Um, and so, you know, we, we realized that the, the more that we could build a platform, uh, around our business, the more that we could build an ecosystem with creators and developers, the harder it would be for folks, uh, to ju- to just copy that. And then it also informed a lot of our thinking about investing in other places that are really hard to copy, including hardware, uh, where it's really, really challenging, um, you know, to copy our, our fully vertically integrated stack around augmented reality. So I'm certain, certain there's a lot more to talk about, uh, there, but I think, you know, we learned early on that software's easy to copy, and so it's really important to build
11:39 – 16:00
Why Snap is betting on two of the hardest businesses: consumer social and hardware
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  more durable moats.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That's really interesting hearing, hearing this from you, and I was gonna get to this later, but we can talk about this now, this big investment you've been putting into hardware. Like, you would think network effects would be the moat. That's what everybody's always trying to, uh, get to because that's, uh, classically a great moat. Are you saying that that's maybe not even as great a moat, or that's just not enough and then you need something more, like, say, hardware?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  I, I don't-- I think network effects are certainly an important piece of the puzzle, for sure. Um, but I don't think they're enough when it comes to these sorts of software, uh, you know, software cloning. And so, you know, despite the fact that we've got a ton of patents and we've protected all these ideas, the way that it works in, in software is that it's quite easy, uh, you know, for folks to copy or iterate on top of these ideas. And so I think in addition to network effects, it's really important, uh, to try to build, you know, businesses that are more defensible by, by truly building out a, a platform that can support relationships between creators, developers, and the community because that, that in and of itself, we've found, is incredibly difficult to copy.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  It's so interesting. Like, if you think about it, you, you're working on two of the hardest m- types of businesses, a consumer social... platform and hardware. [laughs] Uh, and I love that you're doing that. Uh, and this hardware investment, you've been at it for a long time. There, you had Spectacles, you had drones. I don't think people remember [laughs] you had this drone that could take photos of you. And then you have Specs coming out. Is it Specs or Spectacles, the name of what's coming out today, by the way?
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  Uh, Specs is coming out this year.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Specs.
7. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah. Yeah.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Okay, cool. We're gonna talk about it, but just, uh, m- maybe you've already answered it, why this is something you're so passionate about, but why, why this kind of ongoing investment in h- in hardware?
9. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, I think to, like, take a huge step back, um, I love computers. I grew up, uh, using computers all the time. I built my own computer when I was in middle school. Uh, you know, I fell in love with graphic design and would spend, like, every lunch period in the computer lab. And I think one of the things that I noticed about computers, and I think today with mobile phones, uh, is that in many ways they isolate us from one another, right? They actually take us out of our social interactions. They took me off the, you know, playground at recess and, you know, left, you know, put me into the, the computer lab. Or, you know, if I look at our 15-year-old today and his friends, right, you know, sometimes when they're hanging out, they're all looking down at their phones, uh, even though they're all together. And so I think there's just such a big opportunity to build technology that actually brings us together, that keeps us grounded in the real world, rather than, you know, removing us from it. And that's something that we realized early on with Snapchat, right? We were innovating, building, you know, lenses and augmented reality, but ultimately we saw that people were using AR on these tiny little phone screens, right, that required you to, you to use your thumbs to interact. Uh, and so, you know, it was almost like interacting with the world through, like, a keyhole, you know, rather than, uh, actually staying grounded and being able to interact, uh, together with friends. So it just seems so obvious that, like, as computers play a bigger and bigger role in our lives, you know, I think today people spend seven or eight hours a day on average on screens, that, like, something has gotta change to, to make this technology fit better into our lives, right? We get enormous value from computers, but at the same time, I think the cost is, is quite meaningful. And, and I think, um, you know, they need to evolve. So, you know, with the early, with the early version of s- of Spectacles, I guess that was back in 2014 or something like that, you know, the initial idea was just to get the camera off the phone, right, out of your pocket, and, you know, allow you to more easily, you know, take snaps out in the world. Um, but we then sort of built a roadmap from there, right, where we added a second camera to get depth. We added a display to be able to overlay, you know, digital objects into the world and help you interact with them. And then with the last generation in 2024, we released the, the, our, our operating system, which now allows, uh, developers to build full-featured software, uh, inside of, uh, Specs, you know, in, in preparation for the, the consumer, uh, launch. So I don't know. I think the time is right for a new, a, a new type of computer. I think people are frustrated, um, you know, with the cost of using phones and computers today. They're kind of all hunched over like gremlins. And, you know, we can build, uh, a com- a new computer. We have built a new computer that brings people outside, that helps them connect together with their friends, that frees them up to actually use their hands, uh, to interact with the world, and, and, uh, you know, uh, that to me is really exciting. I think it's, it's a whole new chapter. And gosh, I mean, what? It's been 20 years or something since the, the iPhone, so it's, it's about time for something
16:00 – 17:56
Specs use cases
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  new, I think.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So I, I got a early preview of the Specs, and it's extremely cool. Uh, I learned how to be an airbender. [laughs] I put, uh, plants all over my house, uh, was drawing all over the place, and it's, and there's multiplayer features, which is very cool, which I think is part of the idea, right, is you're connecting with people versus sitting in, like, a VR environment on, on your own. Like, I worry about the being connected all the time, so I imagine that's, like, a new thing we have to figure out. How do we not just get hooked on just watching things off to the side instead of looking at someone [laughs] we're with? Uh, do you have any, uh, thoughts there? Just, like, is there a solution to that other than just, like, social norms?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  I, I do think social norms will play a, a big role, but I also think one of the things people experience with AR... You know, Specs, unlike, you know, these heads-up display glasses, they don't just put an annoying, like, you know, little screen that's stuck to your face, uh, on the glasses. They actually, like, anchor content in the world, um, which is really different, right? They, they, um, you know, put, put that content directly i- in your field of view rather than requiring you to, like, look down at some little screen or, like, get some text alert or notification. So I, I think, you know, frankly, I, I don't think those use cases are very compelling. Like, I don't think receiving phone notifications on your face is, like, you know, a, a, a, a, a valuable, you know, proposition for most folks. So I don't think we necessarily have to worry about that 'cause I think most people don't want that. I think, like, what, uh, is gonna be really important with Specs is showing people all the incredible new ways they can hang out and connect together with their friends wearing, wearing Specs. Um, but I, I don't think it'll be, you know, disruptive or notification-based or something like that. One of the things that I really dislike about the heads-up display glasses is when you're looking at the little, you know, heads-up display in the corner, you're actually looking at, like, your friend's crotch, you know, while you're talking to them, if you check the heads-up display. So the position is just very strange, and I, I don't think that that's something that really is resonating, uh, with customers, nor do I think that's something that's gonna become, like, a widespread, you know, behavior.
17:56 – 21:34
The innovation process
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I wanna go back to this idea of how, um, how to innovate. I feel like Snap has always been punching above its weight in terms of just how much new, uh, stuff comes out of your team, how many, like, inventions happen considering the size of, of the company and the, and the history. What do you find is, needs to be true for innovation to happen? What, what do you, what do you do to allow for all these great ideas to emerge?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  The be- the best sort of, like, academic overview or summary I think comes from a guy, Safi Bahcall, who wrote a book called Loonshots. Really worth reading. It's all about the innovation process, and actually, when I read it, I was like, oh my gosh, that kind of explains a lot of how we think about innovation at, at Snap. And I think to summarize the academic version, we can talk about, like, what we've developed and built at Snap, but, like, to summarize, you know, essentially his findings are that, you know-Basically, if you wanna deliver a product at scale, you usually need quite a large organization. A large organization needs hierarchy and structure, a lot of operational rigor. Uh, and as soon as you have an organization that's very large and very structured like that, uh, people become very focused on getting a promotion, right? Getting, you know, into the next step of the hierarchy. And that means that all of a sudden, uh, they become a lot more risk-averse. They're not really as willing to try new things. They're very focused on, you know, achieving the, the goals that have sort of been set for them in this operational hierarchy. And that is... that makes it very, very challenging to innovate. Now, on the flip side, you know, structures that are, are really healthy and constructive for innovation, you know, typically are very, very flat, right? Uh, that's the same for our design team, for example, where there's no one that has a fancier title or a role. Uh, there's a lot of flexibility in terms of the ability to try new things and fail quickly and put up, you know, crazy ideas. A- and you know, what, what he basically finds is that the companies that are very successful actually have both types of organizations inside their company, and that the leaders of the organization are the ones who are responsible for creating a healthy, functioning relationship between the two types of organizations. Because what ends up happening in a lot of companies is that, you know, the small, innovative team becomes critical of the large, you know, organization. "Oh, they're so bureaucratic and slow. They don't innovate," you know, things like that. And then the, you know, the, the larger organization is like, "Oh, you know, what are these jokers doing? You know, just innovating. They're not really driving the business. They're not supporting our customers." And so a lot of tension actually arises from the different organizational structures. And so the leadership responsibility, and I think, you know, Safi does a really good job looking throughout history what leaders have cultivated really constructive and powerful relationships between, you know, the more inna- you know, innovative or flat parts of the organization and the more structural, you know, structured and, and hierarchical parts of the organization. You know, how you create that mutual respect, how you create that dialogue between those parts of the organization is so important. And so, you know, when I read that, I was like, "Wow, that, that actually sounds quite similar to what we have at, at Snap." You know, we have to run a large public company, serve almost a billion customers. That means, you know, our service needs to be really reliable, and it, it means that we need to operate, you know, really, really effectively, uh, to serve our customers. And at the same time, we have a very, very small, you know, it sort of oscillates between, like, 9 and 12 people design team, um, that is constantly innovating and, and creating new things. And I think, you know, the beauty of, of what I love about Snap is that the dialogue between those two teams is where a lot of that innovation happens. Because a lot of our engineers, you know, working to serve our customers or working on reliability, have a bunch of great ideas, and so do our designers, and as long as they're in dialogue, um, you know, really
21:34 – 25:07
The velocity of design work at Snapchat
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  great things can happen.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  There's someone, I forget who, who this was, but they described this approach as the fast thinking and slow thinking part of the organization, kinda like Kahneman's system one, system two approach. It's interesting, the fast-moving, let's say. What do you, what do you kind of call this, this in- innovation team or what... Do you have a label for this, like, let's come up with the new ideas part of the org?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that, like, new ideas come from everywhere, and we want that. But I think the design team in particular, it's really important, and we call it the design team, like, it's really important that they have a flat, non-hierarchical structure, you know, where new ideas can, can come from anywhere. I mean, I think that that, that is absolutely critical.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So in terms of how you operationalize this, is that the key to the innovation you've seen is this, like, specific small design team who, uh, can work... Like, talk about just how you actually operationalize this sort of way of working.
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's an important part of it, but a lot of how we built Snap was modeled actually on mine and Bobby's original relationship, right? Where, like, Bobby, you know, has a computer science, a, you know, heavy duty computer science and stats background, you know, mathematical and computational science. But he really likes design and likes thinking about, uh, you know, building things for customers and empathizing with them. I have a design background, right? I was in, you know, in the product design program at, back at school, which actually was, like, part of the mechanical engineering department at the time. I took some computer science classes. Um, so I, you know, sort of kinda unders- you know, uh, you know, knew what I was talking about when it came to computer science. So we both, like, had mutual respect for each other and our skill sets and our backgrounds and both enjoyed talking, uh, together about the, the, the types of products we wanted to create, and that dialogue created, you know, a lot of innovation. And so a lot of how we've thought about growing the company over time is, like, strengthening that dialogue between engineers and designers and creating, you know, an environment where, uh, you know, folks feel comfortable throwing out, uh, really crazy ideas. But I think, you know, for the design team in particular, the thing that is probably most important is the velocity of design work. So I typically meet with our designers for a couple hours every week, and we just look at work. I mean, new work every week, you know, hundreds of ideas, I would guess, you know, on a, on a weekly basis. That, you know, to me, you know, if, if I think about, um, where I learned how to, to design and, and build things, I have sort of an interesting combination because, you know, I, I went to, to Stanford for the product design program, which is really focused on empathy, right, and this iterative, uh, process of understanding what people want and building prototypes and, and iterating, but really centered on, on empathy, right? Human-centered design. And then at the same time, I'd also been to art school. So I had studied at ArtCenter. I'd studied at Otis here, uh, in Los Angeles, both, you know, great art schools. And so I was used to this, like, grinding, you know, expectation that you're making new work all the time and then just an absolutely brutal critique process, you know, on a regular basis. And so it was, you know, for me, as I thought about, you know, the, the parts of my education that I really liked, it was this combination of really developing empathy with people and what, you know, the types of products that they want in their lives, but at the same time, having this really high velocity, uh, you know, work ethic where you're not just, like, thinking, you know, all the time about, uh, you know, new, new products. You're actually making stuff every week all the time, and then you're talking about it as a team, uh, because that critique process is where so much of the learning, uh, sort of happens. So, you know, I would say that the velocity of work, uh, you know, is really important because our favorite saying is, you know, "If you wanna have a good idea, you have to have lots of ideas."
25:07 – 26:06
Why Evan says you must talk to customers
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  That, that's really, really important.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I just had Keith Rabois on the podcast. I don't know if you know this about his... [chuckles] He has many contrarian takesUh, one is if you're building a consumer product, do not talk to customers. Like, not only is it not useful, his advice is it's harmful because it can infiltrate your subconscious, and it just doesn't lead to great things. What's your perspective on that?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  Wow, that, that's really interesting. Um, I would say, uh, you have to talk to customers. You have to share your idea. You should share your idea as quickly as possible, as frequently as possible. Uh, it doesn't mean you need to take people's advice or feedback, but it's really important, I think, to listen. And, and I think for me, you know, it's, you know, it's not like the survey model of listening. I don't think that's particularly helpful. But I think going deep and talking with someone for an hour, two hours, about how do they use technology, how does it fit in their lives, how do they feel about, you know, the products they're using, you can learn so much. And I think, you know, customers are an endless source of inspiration, um, when it comes to building products.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So you're pro, pro talking to, to users.
26:06 – 28:25
The origin story of Stories
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  'Cause I feel like you've been really good at just, like, here's what it'll be and here's how it should be, and even though people may not understand this is what it should be, I, trust me, it'll work really well. What's that balance of just, like, here's how m- how, what I'll pay attention to, here's what I won't?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, let, let's use Stories as an example, right? So, you know, back then, we were hearing from customers all the time, "I want a send all button. I want a send all button. You know, it's so annoying to select everybody on my list of friends in Snapchat. If you just give me a send all button, then I can blast Snaps to everybody all day long, and that'd be really great." And at the same time, we were talking to people about their use of social media, right? And they're like, "Oh, gosh, social media. I feel all this pressure." Right? "Everything I put up there is permanent all the time. Uh, you know, it's got all these likes and comments, so there's all this judgment. So I only feel like I can put, like, pretty and perfect things up there. Uh, you know, and, and I, I, I just don't like that pressure. That doesn't feel good. I actually love the way that Snapchat allows me to just express myself and, and share with my friends, um, without that, that sort of judgment and, and pressure." And so we th- we thought that was really interesting. And so, you know, we dug deeper into the, you know, how people were using social media. We found that one of the things they thought was really weird was that it, everything was in reverse chronological order in the feed. So the feed back in the day, the timeline, right, uh, like, you know, when people posted photos, you know, they would always find that, like, the end of the birthday party appeared first in the feed, right? And then the middle, and then, uh, you know, the beginning of the party. So it, everything was, was sort of, you know, just in, like, played in reverse in the feed, which was, was really strange, uh, to folks. So we listened to all of that, right, and heard all, all, all of that. But then we came up with something totally new and different, uh, which were Stories, right? That were responsive to the feedback, right? They didn't, you know, create a send all button, but they did create a way to easily share with all of your friends without spamming them all day long. They removed, you know, public metrics. They didn't have, you know, likes and comments and things like that to, to reduce pressure. They disappeared after 24 hours so that everyone could start the day fresh again, you know, the, the next day. And they, you know, maybe most importantly, were in chronological order, which is the way that people have told stories, uh, you know, since the, since the beginning of time. So I think that's an example where, like, listening is incredibly valuable. All of those insights that we, you know, received just from listening to folks made a huge difference in the product design process. But we didn't build exactly what they asked for. We, we empathized and then, you know, came up
28:25 – 31:03
How screenshot detection saved early Snapchat
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  with something new.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And that's such a great story. I love hearing these stories of features that everyone's using now and how they came to be. Was there, was there, like, a moment of just, like, this is the way, this is the Story concept that you remember, or was it kind of this very gradual evolution?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  It was iterative, because in a lot of ways, some of the early ideas, you know, started more around, like, a status update. You know, that, that was sort of, like, you know, could... How could you know what your friends on Snapchat were up to, even if you weren't sending Snaps back and forth? And so, you know, it sort of started there, and then, you know, again, through talking to people and iterating, understanding, uh, what folks were really looking for, we ended up, you know, ended up with Stories. And some of the gestures, you know, that people maybe take for granted today, being able to tap forward through Stories and backwards through Stories, full screen, right, vertical, uh, content, uh, tho- those were all really new things at the time.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Is there another story of something that y'all built that, uh, just, like, was interesting and of how it came to be? These stories are so interesting, and people don't know these histories.
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  You know, one of my favorite stories was around, uh, screenshot detection, actually, in the early days.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Ooh.
7. ESEvan Spiegel
  Because when we first built, uh, Snapchat, and we, you know, shared with people, "Oh, you could send photos that disappear," everyone said, "No, you can't. You can always take a screenshot. What do you mean you can send things that disappear? That makes no sense." And so, [scoffs] you know, we, we thought a lot. I remember that summer, you know, after school. We went home. We were working out of my dad's house, and Bobby and I were just going back and forth. And we were like, you know, uh, we, we were having fun using the product. We were sending, you know, photos back and forth. But people would just keep saying, "Well, this, like, this just, it's not about disappearing photos, 'cause you can just save them. Like, I, I don't get it." And, and one of the things we invented at, at the time, we figured out a way, uh... We realized that if you were pressing and holding to open a Snap and left your finger on the screen, and you took a screenshot, it would basically trigger, uh, you know, an event on the phone, essentially, that made... The phone would essentially report that your finger had lo- lost contact with the screen, right? That's, that's what the screenshot mechanism did. So even though Apple didn't provide an API at the time to let you know that a screenshot had been taken, uh, there was a way for us to essentially detect this touch event to learn that a screenshot, uh, had happened. And then we would just send a notification back, uh, to the sender that, oh, you know, the recipient had, had taken a screenshot. And that, for us, in the early days, uh, you know, really resonated with our community. Because they didn't mind if somebody, you know, saved one of their Snaps. They just wanted to know. And I think that that, uh, you know, that early invention, uh, was one of the first things that really got a lot of traction in the early days and I think, you know, helped Snapchat spread as a new way of, of communicating.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And that is, that is really cool. I can't imagine Snapchat existing without you figuring that out. That feels like such a core mechanic.
31:03 – 34:41
Why they waited to hire PMs—and what role they play now
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Um, something that is also really, I don't- I'd say famous in the PM community about Snap is you guys waited a long time to hire product managers.
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  [laughs]
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I've done all these research reports on just, like, how long it took the top companies to hire their PMs. And the number I saw is that you had 200 employees before you hired your first PM.I'm curious if you think that was a mistake waiting that long, and just your current thoughts on product managers, just, like, how they fit into Snap. A lot of people listening to this are PMs, and so I'm just curious how you feel.
4. ESEvan Spiegel
  A lot of my view of product management was actually driven by my view of, of designers and the role that designers should play. And one of the things that I, you know, was concerned about in the tech community, you know, if you look at the traditional tech org- org structure, you know, designers really are producing visuals. They're not really producing the product direction or the strategy or the vision or, you know, net new, uh, net new innovation, right? They're really responsive, actually, I think in many cases, to the PM, saying, "This is what we're building. Now go make me some visuals." And I absolutely did not want that type of culture to take root because, again, as I mentioned, we modeled a lot of the, you know, way that we develop products here at Snap on that early relationship between myself and Bobby, really this, you know, this harmonious relationship between design and engineering and, and how important that is, that dialogue is to, to building great things and great, great products. And so, you know, I think in the early days, my view was not that we don't need PMs. My view was that designers should do that work. [chuckles] So that's essentially, uh, you know, what we would say to our designers, which was like, you know, uh, "Hey, if you need PM support, why don't you just do it yourself? What's, what's the big deal?" Uh, and I think that that really helped, uh, frankly, designers play a more active role in the product development process. Now, today, you know, at a company operating at our scale, you know, if you look at the legal requirements, the, our approach to trust and safety, um, you know, it, it really does take a, a village to get a new product off the ground, and product managers play a really important coordination role in all that, in addition to synthesizing, for example, data science, uh, analysis and bringing together the working group to try to solve problems or innovate or make the product better. So I think, you know, as the organization grows and there becomes, you know, all of these different capabilities that the company didn't have in the early days, you know, whether it's data science, uh, you know, you name it, product managers play a really important role in, in bringing all those folks to the table and, and making sure we deliver, you know, the right thing at, at the right time.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
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34:41 – 36:10
How AI is shifting the designer-PM-engineer triad
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  There's, uh, this interesting question that everyone's asking right now. Marc Andreessen put it really well when he was on the pod. There's this kind of like three-way standoff right now between PMs, designers, engineers, where they each think they are the future and you don't need the other with AI, and everyone's wondering who's gonna... What's the more important core skill? I imagine your sense is now AI makes designers even more powerful, and so this is even more the way to approach. Talk about just, like, how you think this shifts these, this triad with AI enabling people.
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, it sounds highly dysfunctional if folks are having that standoff. That is not, not a good thing. Um, but I do like, uh, I do like that people are thinking about doing work really differently. I think that's imperative at this moment of time. The rate of change is, uh, extraordinary. I... Look, I, I, I do think designers feel vindicated in a lot of ways, right? You know, a lot of designers had parents who were saying, "Why aren't you studying computer science?" You know, "What are you gonna do with this skill set, uh, drawing things? You know, this doesn't make any sense." And I think today, you know, a lot of our designers are now shipping code, which is extraordinary, right? And that's a really big and really meaningful change, uh, in terms of the way, uh, that, that design works here at Snap and the way the creative process works. And so I think removing friction from the creative process and being able to go from idea to, you know, impact at, you know, the scale of almost a billion, uh, people using Snapchat is really empowering and exciting, uh, for, for designers who feel like these tools, um, you know, uh, maybe level the playing field to some extent for, for creative people.
36:10 – 37:24
Design as an intentional bottleneck for product cohesion
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah. What I feel like, I don't see this happening yet, but I feel like because now it's so much easier to build, people are shipping all these okay things, and it feels like design should have its moment in, in, of glory right now as a differentiator of like, okay, this is actually awesome. I haven't felt that yet, and I'm curious if that's what will begin to happen.
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, I think for us, design actually has always operated as like a bottleneck at the company, which is incredibly important, right? It's intentional, uh, that things need to be approved by design to ship, and sometimes that really annoys people, uh, you know, and it does slow down the shipping process. Sometimes it means that if you don't know how to work well with design or get your ideas in front of design, that, like, some really innovative or cool new thing developed by, you know, a, a PM or developed by an engineer maybe doesn't get shipped as fast as it should. But that bottleneck is really, really important because that's what results in a cohesive customer experience. And I think, you know, uh, I think you can see when an app has been built by, you know, teams who are responsible for different, you know, pages of the app, right, or different parts of the experience, but there isn't really, like, a cohesive through line. And I think, uh, you know, for us at, at Snap, you know, having design really actually be that bottleneck in terms of helping to, you know, manage what we're shipping and, you know, what it looks like and how it all works together,
37:24 – 39:39
Why staying close to customers matters for any leader
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  I, I think is really important.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That's a good segue to something I wanted to ask you about, which isYou're famously, uh, very in the weeds on everything that is going on, all the things that are shipping. You're very close to the Pixels. I'm curious how that's evolved for you over time. Like, are you still in there looking at everything that's about to ship? And what's your just philosophy on founders having to be involved in the, let's say, the Pixels and the details of the product?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  First and foremost, like, yeah, uh, th-this is what I love to do. Like, I, I love building things. I love, uh, you know, making new products, services for our community. That, that, that is, like, what drives me. I really, really enjoy that part of the process. So, you know, it's, it's not work to me. It's something that I really just love doing and love doing together with our team. And so I think for me, like that, you know, in addition to all the great people I get to work with here at Snap, like, the thing that, you know, wakes me up, you know, with a smile on my face every morning, the reason why I'm skipping to work is 'cause I, you know, I am in the weeds on, on what we're building and shipping to our, uh, our community. That, that being said, there are always, uh, smarter, better, more talented experts, uh, you know, uh, working on all the different, uh, things that we have going on, but I really do like staying close to, to what we're, what we're creating. Uh, I, I don't think it's relevant just to founders. I think no matter what type of company you're running or your role in the company, staying close to your customer or staying close to the product and the way that it's serving your customer is the fundamentally most important thing you could possibly do. I think, like, I'm, I, I absolutely subscribe to, like, the old school, like, walk the floors, talk to your customers, get out there and stay in touch with what's actually happening, uh, with your service, with your community, uh, with your team. And, and I think that's probably the most important job that any leader can do in any company is stay close to their customers, stay close to their team.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Do you feel like especially for a consumer and consumer social product, this is extra important to just be, like, extremely in the weeds on everything that is shipping and, say, having design- your design team have to approve everything? Do you feel like that's especially important for consumer?
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  I, I don't think it's especially important for consumer. I think it's especially important for any company that wants to deliver great products to their community, right? Lot, lot, diff- companies have different points of strength, right, and differentiation, but if you wanna, you know, differentiate on the product experience, I think it's really important that leaders stay, stay very close to that.
39:39 – 41:57
What Evan looks for when hiring designers
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Is there anything special you look for in the designers you hire, knowing that they're basically running the show and just approving everything and just kinda, like, the right hand to Evan? Is there anything in particular you look for to-- when you're hiring these designers?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah. There's a couple really important things. Uh, first of all, we make all of our, you know, hiring decisions just based off portfolio. So, like, that's really all we wanna see. Like, I really don't care where you've worked or your level of experience. In fact, most people join our design team right out of school, uh, you know, not from a big tech company or, or something like that. And really what I'm focused on is understanding the portfolio and, and I wanna see two things from, from the portfolio. The first is a really wide range, and that is the difference between art and design, right? [chuckles] So there are lots of people who have a very distinct style, right? They have a very distinct way of building things and creating things. That really is art, right? They're expressing themselves and their own personal point of view on the world, and it's can be very beautiful, but it is not design. Design is really about, you know, empathizing with your customer, empathizing with your audience, your viewer, whoever it is, and then building something that wi- really resonates with them. And, and that means you need to have a, an extraordinary amount of range. You've gotta be able to, to build and create things that look totally different. So when I'm going through a portfolio, you know, the first thing I'm looking for is, like, are they building stuff that all looks the same, uh, or are they building things that look really different, right? That, uh, you know, um, [lips smack] that have been responsive to different sets of, of needs. And that's how I know that they're a designer and, and not just an artist. And then, you know, the, the, the other thing I wanna understand and, you know, typically, uh, you know, I interview every designer that joins our, our team, and what I wanna understand is why and the story behind the work that they, they created. So typically what I'll do is just say, "Hey, you know, pick something in your portfolio, anything you feel strongly about. Uh, you know, you could love it, hate it, I don't care. You just have to feel strongly about it, and just tell me the story of why you made it and what you learned, uh, through that, through that process." And I think, you know, pretty quickly you can understand, you know, someone's, uh, someone's process in terms of, you know, building something or inventing something. How do they go about it? And I'm really trying to make sure that we have people who have different ways of doing that on our team. One of the strengths of our design team has been that people come from lots of different backgrounds, right? They might come from 3D animation, or they might come from electrical engineering. [chuckles] And, like, that's a real strength, uh, to have folks who see the world differently and have, you know,
41:57 – 44:16
How to develop young design talent
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  totally different sets of skills.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So as I was preparing for this chat, I talked to a bunch of people that worked at Snap over the years, and I've, I've integrated their ideas throughout already. Uh, but one that came up that w- I thought was interesting is I hear that you spend a lot of time developing young design talent, and that's a big focus of yours. Can you just talk about how you develop young design talent?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, I, I think the number one way to develop, uh, young design talent is just help them make lots of stuff and get a lot of feedback from, you know, whether it's, uh, our customers or, you know, their teammates or, you know, myself, uh, directly. And so one of the things that we do that's different at Snap is, you know, your first day that you join the design team, you present work, and it's really, really important that, you know, the first day that you show up on the team, you're making things. And that just sets the tone for the rest of your, you know, experience on the design team and growth on the, on the design team, because really, that's what we're all about. Uh, and so I think folks who can get comfortable very quickly in that velocity of making things, that's where, you know, the ego sort of melts away because, you know, when you're creating a thousand new ideas, uh, who cares that most of them are not great ideas? That's totally fine, right? What we wanna get rid of is that sense of, you know, preciousness that people have around ideas where they feel like, "Oh, I've got this one really perfect, great idea, and if people don't love it, that means that I'm not a great designer." It's like, no, that's, that's ridiculous. We, we all, uh, you know, need to just create as many ideas as possible that will lead us to, you know, some really great ideas, hopefully over time. And so I think for young designers, that ve- establishing that velocity of, of ideation very early on, uh, is really, really important. And then the other thing we do that I, I think is different, I... although I don't know, I, I've never really worked anywhere else, uh, you know, is, is, um-We don't allow designers get, to get stuck on specific products or verticals for very long. We like to make sure people are rotating through different parts of the product, uh, to bring new ideas and fresh perspectives, and also to avoid getting bored. Like, if you're a great designer and you're stuck, you know, designing the chat experience for three years, like, I mean, how boring is that? It's really exciting, I think, at Snap to be able to work across all of these, you know, highly engaged product services. We have one of the largest maps in the world. We have this huge aug-- you know, the biggest augmented reality platform. Like, these are really exciting opportunities for designers, and it's important that we are rotating them across, you know, all, all of these different, uh, products so
44:16 – 47:20
Designers shipping code with AI—and the guardrails needed at scale
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  they're not getting stuck.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I had, uh, Jenny Wen on the podcast. She's the-- She was head of design for Claude and Cowork, and she was a, like, a director at Figma, and then she came to Anthropic and moved to just IC design again, and I asked her what's the hardest part of that move, and sh-she said it's just all the crits that she has to deal with now, or just so much criticism and constant feedback, and it's... She forgot about that part of it. So it's interesting that's such a core part of the way you-- like, the thing that people have to learn, essentially, and get good at.
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, and one of the things that's so important, right, about our design team and our design culture, one of the things that we try to do is there is no gate to showing me work every week. So there is no-- You don't... Like, any idea, doesn't matter, you know, how good people think it is, how bad it is, you can bring it to that design meeting, get it on the, on the list, and share your work and your idea. And that is so important because I think, to your point, you know, sometimes people over-rely on this critique process, and great ideas get filtered out. And so I think creating this culture on the team where, like, you can bring anything to the design meeting, there's no, you know, uh, filtering process, I, I think is just so important.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You mentioned AI, how designers are shipping code. I have a friend who works at, um, a big tech company, and he just said all the design team there are required to ship, like, I don't know, 10 PRs a month or something like that, or a quarter, which is such a new world. I guess one is just, like, how do you think about designers shipping code? Is that, like, just do it if you can, or is it, like, a requirement sort of thing? And broadly, I'm just curious how AI is changing the way your team operates. What are just, like, a few things you've-- that have been impactful in how your team operates that are AI-driven?
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  Taking a step back, uh, it's definitely not a requirement to ship code on the design team, but I think people are so passionate and curious about learning new things. I mean, one of the things, you know, we've always tried to do on the design team is just figure it out, right? I remember in the early days of some of the 3D graphic stuff that we were trying to do, one of our team members, you know, had never done 3D graphics before, and they were like, they were like, "Okay, let's just figure it out," right? So they took some online tutorials and, like, you know, boom, like, we were off to the races. So I think the design team has always been really flexible in terms of, you know, their curiosity, learning new things. And so I, I don't think you have to, like, push people or create a requirement or something like that, uh, for folks to want to adopt new tools and, and wanna, you know, wanna ship code. I think, you know, the big question now that everyone and anyone, uh, thinks they can, you know, submit a PR is, like, how we don't break things at a, at a billion, you know, or near-nearly a billion user scale, right? That, that's really important. So I think, uh, what we've really tried to do is also develop AI tools and guardrails to make it easier for more people to, you know, participate and submit code, but also reduce the likelihood, uh, that, you know, we're gonna have some sort of bug. So, you know, we've got automated code review now. We've, I think, automatically detected, like, close to 10,000 bugs at this point probably. You know, we've, we've got a, y- we have a system at Snap where, you know, on the, the internal version of the app, you can shake to report, uh, you know, your problem, and agents now, uh, you know, debug exactly what happened, what went wrong and, you know, can actually, like, sug-suggest a, a fix. And I think, you know, in pretty short order it'll be implementing the fix as well, which is pretty crazy. So
47:20 – 48:50
Using jobs-to-be-done to organize AI transformation
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  I think, you know, taking a step back, uh, there's so much excitement around the way that AI is, is gonna change the way that companies work. Obviously, software companies in particular, like ours, I think, are on the cutting edge of, of the way that AI is changing how things get built and, and, and what gets done. Um, we really wanted to bring some, like, order to that chaos. And so the way that we did that was really by starting with the jobs to be done for our community and our advertisers. So getting really, really basic and, you know, straightforward on, okay, you know, for Snapchatters, right, our jobs to be done, it's as simple as, like, get people to download the app, right? Get them to add their close friends. You know, get them to, you know, I don't know, use lenses, something like that. On the advertiser front, right, it could be, you know, y- getting, bringing people into the ad platform, configuring their campaign, et cetera. And so by listing out all these jobs to be done, you know, really for the, for the community journey and for advertisers as well, it became very clear where we could use agents, where we needed to be very focused in terms of building cross-functional teams around those jobs supported by AI tools. And it's also given us a, I think, a, a really helpful mechanism to track our progress against the business outcomes, uh, for each of those, those jobs. So I think, you know, for us, trying to, you know, while, while I think at, in this moment of time you certainly wanna, like, you know, have 1,000 flowers bloom and people are building agents and experimenting, I think at the same time making sure that, that we stay focused on what matters to our community, what matters to advertisers is really, really, uh,
48:50 – 51:30
How the CEO job has changed over 15 years
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  important.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Okay. I wanna take a step back and think about, just kind of reflect back. It's been 15 years since you've been working on Snap. You launched about 15 years ago. I'm curious just what are some of the maybe biggest lessons, maybe the hardest lessons you've learned over the past 15 years, things that you're like, "Oh, I didn't realize this as I was starting this company."
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah, I, I think it's hard to comprehend how much the job changes over time. I mean, it's really quite extraordinary to go from, you know, my jo- you know, in the, in the early days with Bobby and I, I was, you know, helping design the product, but I was also answering customer support emails. I was, you know, trying to get our legal filings sorted out. I was trying to raise money, right? Uh, as, you know, the company grows and things evolve, like, so much more of the job is about leadership, right, about making sure you're really developing people, selecting the right people to be on the team, developing the culture, uh, doing that really, really seriously and, and, you know, in some ways creating a structure that can enforce that, you know, to have a cohesive culture and, and a vision, uh, around the company. Um-You know, it, it becomes about strategy, right? Uh, managing through, you know, enormous change, like, uh, what we're seeing with, with artificial intelligence, uh, today. But also, you know, several years ago managing through the pandemic or managing through rebuilding our advertising platform as the landscape, uh, you know, changed. So the job has just changed so dramatically, and I think that that's part of what's so energizing about it, what I enjoy so much about it, but it's also something I, like, never in a million years could have anticipated when we were first, uh, first getting started.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  How, how have you most changed and, and I guess evolved over that course? What's, like, a big area that you've improved in?
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  You know, one of, one of the big focus areas for me was learning how to communicate more effectively, uh, you know, both, both to our team, but also, you know, you know, here on a podcast or with the world. I mean, so much of the job is about becoming a great communicator. I remember I, I had the opportunity to meet, uh, President Clinton at one point in the early days of the company. And he was like, "You know, it's very interesting, you know, being president is really like being explainer in chief, and your job is actually to just explain stuff to people, uh, and help them make sense of the world and the company and their role in it." And I, I always thought that was really interesting, and I go back to that a lot. So much of my job is to, like, is to explain things, uh, to our company and, and, you know, to our shareholders, to the world, uh, in ways that, that really make sense and, and can inspire folks and, and help us to all move in the, in the right direction. So I think, uh, communication just becomes such a s- core skill, and I think in the early days I, I was, you know, unnecessarily dismissive, uh, of, of the really important role of
51:30 – 54:08
Learning to communicate
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  communication.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  For founders that are hearing this and they're like, "Okay, I'm gonna work on this," what most helped you level up in, in this space? Is it, like, coaches? Is it people around you? Is it just doing it?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  You know, just doing it is really the only way. Uh, you know, and I rem- that was really the advice like, one of our board members gave to me because I was so reluctant. I didn't wanna do an all-hands. I didn't wanna do Q&A. Uh, you know, in the early days of the company, I was like, "What?" You know, "I'll just send an email." And he's like, "What are you doing?" Like, he's like, "Too bad, Evan." Like, "This is your job." Uh, and I think that was really, really good advice. Uh, and so literally I was like, "Okay, fine. Uh, you know, this is a core part of my job and what I need to learn how to do. I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn to love it. I wanna love it. I wanna get up there and, you know, get in front of our company and really enjoy, you know, answering all these really tough questions and, you know, digging into the business with our team." And now I, I really do. Um, you know, I've learned to, learned to really enjoy that, that dialogue with our team, and I learn so much from the questions that folks ask, and I love that openness. I think it's just such an important part of our company and who we are.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I had Rahul Vohra on the podcast a while back, the founder of Superhuman, and he went through a similar... I don't know if this is what you went through, but he went through a transition where he loved what he was doing and then ended up being pushed by VCs and leaders to, like, "Okay, you gotta do these other things." And then like, "Okay, I, I really don't like this, and I'm gonna find a way to do the thing I really enjoy because that's gonna reflect in so many ways across the business and help us succeed." Is that, is that something you went through of just like, "Okay, I just wanna get back to the, the product and building"?
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  You know, I think that's only partly true if you wanna stay in the CEO job. Like, I think the CEO job has a lot of requirements that are not necessarily things, you know, that, that you love to do in the morning. It, it, there's a huge amount of responsibility that comes along with being a CEO. There's a lot of operational rigor, uh, that I think needs to be developed. I think not every part of the, the CEO job is, is glamorous. So I think if, you know, if I j- if I just wanted to, to work on product, I would pick a different job at Snap. But I think because I really like leading our company and leading the direction and strategy for the business and because I see a huge opportunity in transforming the way that people use, you know, computing in the, in the future, uh, you know, both through Snapchat but also, uh, with, with Specs, I think this is the right role for me, uh, right now. I mean, uh, certainly I would spend more time with my family and, uh, probably have, uh, more fun on some days if I was in a different role or, you know, um, more focused on design. But I think the opportunity for a business like ours at the scale, you know, that we have, it's, it's a, you know, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity for me. And, and I, you know, I, you know, despite its challenges, I, I do
54:08 – 56:22
Why this year is Snapchat’s “crucible moment”
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  like the CEO job.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So kind of along those lines, you put out this letter, I think it was the end of last year, where you described this coming year as the crucible moment for Snap. Uh, it's so interesting, just, like, you guys have a billion monthly active users. That's just absurd. I don't think people realize this. You're making six billion a year in revenue, something like that. One of the very few social networks that lasts, that is durable, with, like, a very, uh, valuable, interesting audience. On the flip side, the stock hasn't been killing it. There's, like, these investors coming at you trying to tell you to change all these things. Uh, I guess just thoughts, reflections, and what do you think people are, are missing about where this might go?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, that, that's really one of the reasons why I called this year, uh, a crucible moment. I mean, the, the company's almost at the scale of entering the Fortune 500, which is really exciting. It's almost at a billion, uh, monthly active users. Uh, it's about to launch Specs after, you know, 12 years of investment, uh, in this future computing platform. You know, but at the same time, it's, it's still not net income profitable, for example, uh, because we've been investing so heavily, uh, in the future and make- making the choice, uh, to do that. And so I think this is the year that we have to prove that Snapchat, you know, can be a really strong, profitable business, that it continues, uh, you know, to grow in ter- both in terms of the reach of our audience and, and their engagement, uh, you know, with, with new products, whether it's, you know, Topic chats or Spotlight or, you know, we've... I think we've got 200 million people playing games every month on Snapchat now, so gaming is becoming a, a big part of, of, um, you know, the engagement driver, you know, engagement drivers on Snapchat. And the reason why that's so important is that it's gonna be very hard for us to win long-term in Specs without a really solid foundation. Um, and so I think we need to demonstrate that, you know, after a couple years of rebuilding our ad platform, rebuilding our go-to-market efforts, con- really accelerating the growth of the, the small-medium customer part of our business, which has grown really rapidly, uh, for us, that, like, this year we have a really solid foundation to launch the next chapter, uh, in the company's, uh, history. So it's a real, it's a real turning point, uh, for Snap that's really exciting, but it's definitely an all-hands-on-deck, uh, moment, uh, for the company.
56:22 – 57:51
Being the “middle child” in tech
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You had a really interesting way of describing Snap in the market. You called Snap the middle child. Talk about just what, [chuckles] what that means.
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah. I, I think one of the things that's so, uh, funny about our service is that while we're very, very large in terms of the scale of our audience, in terms of the scale of our business, you know, we're much larger than a, a Pinterest or a Reddit, for example. We're also way smaller than Meta and Google, and so we occupy this very interesting, uh, sort of middle position in the, in the market. And I think, you know, that comes with a, a lot of benefits 'cause we're big enough, we have enough scale to do really interesting things, but it also comes, uh, with the challenges of, you know, being, uh, overshadowed in some cases by our older brothers and maybe, you know, sometimes the, the younger, uh, the younger kids are, are getting more, uh, attention. And so I think again, as in this crucible moment, part of defining who we are as a company, uh, and, and who we are as a business and, and, you know, I think one of the things that will play an important role in that is getting Specs out and, you know, uh, to, to consumers. Because I think right now we've talked so long about the role that Specs will play in the world. We've, you know, worked on developing the platform for so long. But without something that you can really, uh, you know, play with and hang onto and, and use yourself, it's hard to really understand, you know, the next chapter of, of, uh, Snap's, Snap's journey. So, uh, I think, you know, one of the, the biggest challenges that middle children face is defining themselves, right? Standing out, uh, from their older siblings and, and younger siblings, and so I think this is a, this is a moment and a year when Snap is really gonna define itself. Uh, and, and
57:51 – 1:01:08
Screen-time philosophy with four kids (ages 2 to 15)
1. ESEvan Spiegel
  I'm really excited about that.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Speaking of middle child, you have, uh, a number of children, and I'm curious, this is a whole, going a whole different direction, what's your just pol- like policy on screens and devices? You know, having built Snapchat, uh, and then also Specs, just how do you, how do you think about devices and your kids?
3. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, we've got a, a real range. Uh, we've got four boys, uh, two, six, uh, seven, and 15. So we approach it very differently, uh, for all the kids at different ages. For the two-year-old, uh, it's like zero screen time. Uh, we really, uh, just, you know, wanna, you know, essentially read with him and play, uh, you know, explore outside and, and those sorts of things, but, but not really focus on, on screens unless he is getting a haircut because he really struggles, uh, with getting his hair cut. So when, when he gets a haircut, he l- he really loves, uh, Bobcat tractors, you know, the, the, those four-wheel, uh, sort of Bobcat tractors, and he loves to watch YouTube videos of people driving Bobcat tractors around. So when he gets his hair cut, he can watch people drive, uh, Bobcat tractors, but other than that, uh, no, no screen time. For, for the six and seven-year-olds, uh, you know, they, they are i- I would say infrequent, uh, movie watchers. But other than that, uh, again, you know, we don't give them phones or anything like that. In fact, it was really fun for, uh, you know, over, over the holidays for Christmas, I gave them that new... I think Palmer Luckey has a startup where they are sort of remaking Game Boys. Uh-
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah. I, I have one of those
5. ESEvan Spiegel
  ... yeah, it's really fun. Yeah. So ex-
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mod, Mod Retro.
7. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah. Mod Retro. So the, the TBPN guys gave me two of them for our, uh, for our kids for, for Christmas, and so, um, they, they get to spend a little time on those in addition to watching movies every now and then. And then, you know, with the 15-year-old, it's, he, he, we, he is, uh, all in on, on technology, whether he's using it for school or whether he's using it to talk with his friends or using Snapchat. So, you know, it really depends on, on kids and where they're at developmentally, but I think for us, like that, that's been our approach.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Is there anything you're doing with AI and your kids? Like maybe even the older one, just like AI education sort of tools, ChatGPT?
9. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah, it's so funny. At the, at the breakfast table the other morning, actually, I was just asking them a lot about, like how are their teachers talking about AI at school? How are they thinking about integrating in the curriculum? Are you guys, you know, using AI all the time? Um, and, and I think the answer so far has been not really, uh, you know, which I think is, is interesting. But certainly, uh, you know, our kids play around with it, um, at home. There's, they, you know, are, are beta testers for Specs, which is really fun. I really love, uh, you know, using the glasses together with them and, and some of the really cool, uh, experiences there. And, you know, Flynn, who's the eldest, is probably most fluent, um, in, in using AI tools. But what I think is so fun, you know, as a kid, w- I think all of us as, as kids, right, are incredibly imaginative, right? We're all born creative. We have all these amazing ideas to share, and I think what's so cool about AI is how, you know, in an, in nearly an instant, you can take any idea you have and, and make something. And so I think that's so empowering for, for young people. It's certainly an experience I want our, uh, our kids to have, and I think it's gonna be so important to deeply integrate into the way that, you know, education works today.
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah. It's interesting. Snapchat has always been really good at allowing you to create and make, feel like a superstar, just create all these really crazy lenses and filters and all these things, and it's interesting AI, just like vibe coding, just unleashes so much creativity, and kids are so imaginative already.
11. ESEvan Spiegel
  Absolutely.
1:01:08 – 1:04:02
AI Corner
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So interesting. Okay. Well, to close out our conversation, I've got a couple-- I'm gonna take us to a couple corners, recurring corners on the podcast. One is AI Corner. So the question is, what's, what's a way you use AI in your, let's say, work that allow, that is just interesting, that might be interesting for other people to, to learn from?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Uh, well, one of the things that I really love about AI, you know, in, uh, at Snap, I've got access to all of our dashboards and documents and data. And so, you know, I built a, we, we have Glean that integrates, uh, you know, all this data for me, and I built just an agent that will go and comb through everything that's happening in the company, uh, and let me know what's up, what I need to focus on, what I need to catch. And every now and then, it really catches something that I, you know, hadn't, hadn't realized or needed to focus a bit more on. And so I think we're just so fortunate to have so much structured data in our company. And then, you know, for our leaders, they also send me, you know, every week, kinda the, the three things from the week and three things looking ahead. And so I can like very, very easily get a sense for, you know, the hotspots in the company, the priority areas, and combined with all of our dashboards and, and metrics about the way that people are using our service, I feel like I have a, a really good sense, um, for, for what's happening in, in the company. So I think, you know, what's been ex- most exciting for me in, in terms of AI, uh, is, is that it's enabling, I think, the type of leadership structure that I've always wanted, which is, you know, very flat, uh, you know, very fast-moving. Um, and I think, you know, having an AI co-pilotTo, to help me do that's been a, been a big deal
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And that agent was, uh... You built it in Glean? Is that where it lives?
4. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah. That, I mean, that, that I've, that I've done, uh, in Glean, which is, is great. Obviously, you can build all sorts of stuff in, in Claude. But Glean, for us, is the most secure way to access all of our different documents and dashboards and things like that.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Is there anything interesting in your AI stack? There's, um... Sounds like Glean, Claude. Is there anything else that's, um, that's interesting maybe some people may not think about?
6. ESEvan Spiegel
  I think one of the things that we're thinking a lot about is just a- taking the entire workflow, um, and enabling it with an agent. So for example, uh, you know, taking a product idea, and with our go-to-market agent, taking that product idea, writing the spec, making... identifying the relevant, uh, folks who need to be involved in sign-offs and understanding it, right? Actually helping to do the ana- the risk analysis on the product, right, from a legal trust and safety perspective, writing the go-to-market materials, like the blog, et cetera. We're working now on, on actually building the visuals as well. But doing that in one shot, uh, you know, is, is really, uh, wild. So I think there's all sorts of examples like that across the company, uh, in terms of the way that agents can play a, a really massive, um, role in changing the way that we work. And that, that's connected to, you know, how we think about those jobs to be done, right? So if, if we can, uh, define a job to be done clearly enough that we can build an agent to do it, uh, that, that can really create a lot of, a lot of lift.
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  What do you... Where do you build this agent? What's the, what platform do you use?
8. ESEvan Spiegel
  Uh, we've been using Claude to do a lot of the-
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Okay, cool
10. ESEvan Spiegel
  ... the work, um, you know, across Snap. Yeah.
1:04:02 – 1:06:04
Contrarian Corner
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Sweet. Okay. Uh, I'll take us to another recurring corner in the podcast, Contrarian Corner. What's something that you believe that a lot of other people don't believe? What's kind of a contrarian take about anything that comes to mind?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, I, I think for me, like, we're, we're in an industry where so much of the conversation is focused on, uh, technology, and I think maybe my contrarian point of view or my contrarian angle is, like, humanity is far more important, uh, you know, than, than the technological developments, largely because humanity dictates how technology is adopted, right? I think, for example, right now, people are massively underestimating the role that human adoption and human comfort, uh, you know, with advances in artificial intelligence will determine its deployment, right? I think technology leaders think that folks will just blindly adopt, uh, new technology as it comes out, and I think we're gonna enter a period of time where there's gonna be a huge amount of societal pushback on a lot of the changes that are coming, uh, with AI. And so I think a lot of our focus as an industry, but more broadly in the world, needs to be putting humanity first, right? Making sure that the tools, uh, we're developing are advancing humanity's goals, um, you know, in addition to, uh, business goals. And, you know, I think in our industry at least, that, that's a bit contrarian.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah, and just so we don't need to go too down this path, but I- it's so hard for the AI labs, I think, to, on the one hand, be like, "Okay, this is really dangerous if it gets much smarter, and we need people to know this, 'cause this is happening and moving quickly." On the other hand, how do you not just freak everyone out and make everyone so afraid of where things are going? It's like, well, how do you... what do you do? What's the right thing for them to do? And, uh, and because of all that, of that doom and gloom, it's like, uh, I'm sure you've seen these surveys. AI is, like, below ice in terms of popularity and, and like below like Iran. [laughs] It's like... And this isn't going great. I don't know. I don't know what I would do if I were lab. And I love, I guess, that's like a, a benefit of Snapchat, is it makes... Like, you guys have been in AI from, for a very long time, and it shows you the playfulness of it all. And it, you know, it doesn't have to be that serious. Anyway,
1:06:04 – 1:10:22
Lightning round and final thoughts
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  with that, Evan, we reached our very exciting [thunder] lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?
2. ESEvan Spiegel
  Let's give it a shot.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Okay. [laughs] What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
4. ESEvan Spiegel
  God. Well, you know what I just finished was The First Fifty Years of Apple, uh, by David Pogue. I thought it was great. I would recommend the first half, uh, because, you know, he interviews like 150 early Apple team members, and it... the stories are just great. And there's a lot of learnings in there. Um, so I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed that. I think, uh... What else have I read recently? Uh, there's a, a great book, maybe relevant for this particular moment, called The End of the World Is Just the Beginning, um, which actually touches a lot on the vulnerability of global shipping. Like, the global economy is built on global shipping, um, and it sort of predicts a world where the US is gonna have a much harder time securing the global waterways, uh, and what does that mean for, uh, the way that we build things and organize ourselves as a society? So-
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That sounds quite familiar these days
6. ESEvan Spiegel
  ... quite relevant for the given-
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah. [laughs]
8. ESEvan Spiegel
  ... moment. Yeah.
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Awesome. Is there a recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?
10. ESEvan Spiegel
  I mean, I feel like this is so typical, but, like, I, I loved Marty Supreme. I thought that movie was off the charts. Uh, and I, I was like, I, I don't know. I'm, I'm not used to watching stuff that extreme, you know what I mean? I, I could bare- I was, like, on the edge of my seat the whole time. It's like a full throttle movie experience. Highly recommend.
11. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I've not seen it yet. I keep hearing amazing things.
12. ESEvan Spiegel
  It's, it's very intense. Yeah.
13. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Okay. [laughs] I'm ready for that. Next question: Do you have a, is there a product you recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app, could be clothing, a gadget, anything.
14. ESEvan Spiegel
  Well, I think through our kids right now, I'm just rediscovering, uh, Pokémon, which is so fun. It's so great, and I think, uh, you know, there's so much art to it and personality and character and, uh, what an amazing brand and franchise. And I think, like, I, you know, my general view is, like, there's just so, so much they could do to grow, uh, you know, that, that IP and, and franchise if, at least if our kids are any indication.
15. LRLenny Rachitsky
  First mention of Pokémon in the lightning round. Next question: Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?
16. ESEvan Spiegel
  You have two ears and one mouth. Use them in that proportion.
17. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Nice. Final question: Uh, you guys have created many lenses over the years. I'm curious if you have just, like, a favorite lens, like all-time favorite, and then all-time least favorite, the worst.
18. ESEvan Spiegel
  Uh, I mean, all-time favorite is probably the vomiting rainbow. I think, like, that just brought so much joy, uh, to so many people, which is great. Least favorite, probably, like, the old lens, I don't know, or face swap. I just, just-
19. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Oh, right
20. ESEvan Spiegel
  ... those are, those are intense. Yeah.
21. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Wow. Flashback. And you guys were the first to do that, right?
22. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah. I mean, and that was all, that, that was all early days, real-time machine learning transformation on the device. You know, like, that was, like, pretty cutting edge at the time. I mean, I don't think people realize, like, Bobby created our Gen AI lab, like, 10 years ago, a decade ago, something like that.
23. LRLenny Rachitsky
  What a time. The face swapping, uh, era.
24. ESEvan Spiegel
  Yeah. The early use of generative AI, uh, in action.
25. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Wow. I forgot that was another innovation. And then there's, like, businesses and apps that just set, that built that as a whole business-
26. ESEvan Spiegel
  [laughs]
27. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... and then all, all went away, as far as I can tell. Wow. [laughs] Man, that was a good time. All right. Well, Evan, uh, is there anything else you wanted to share, anything else you want to leave listeners with before we, before I let you go?
28. ESEvan Spiegel
  I think it's such an, it's such an exciting time. Obviously, I think there's a lot of concern about the way that artificial intelligence is gonna change our society, but I think there's so much to be optimistic about in terms of the way that computing can become more human, and that's really what we're focused on. So really excited to share more about all the stuff we've been working on, uh, later this year.
29. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Evan, thank you so much for being here.
30. ESEvan Spiegel
  My pleasure. Thanks, Lenny.

Episode duration: 1:10:24

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Introduction to Evan Spiegel

Why consumer social products are so hard to build

How Snapchat cracked distribution with close friends, not network size

Why distribution is the new moat in the AI era

Snapchat’s innovation track record (and why software isn’t a moat)

Why Snap is betting on two of the hardest businesses: consumer social and hardware

Specs use cases

The innovation process

The velocity of design work at Snapchat

Why Evan says you must talk to customers

The origin story of Stories

How screenshot detection saved early Snapchat

Why they waited to hire PMs—and what role they play now

How AI is shifting the designer-PM-engineer triad

Design as an intentional bottleneck for product cohesion

Why staying close to customers matters for any leader

What Evan looks for when hiring designers

How to develop young design talent

Designers shipping code with AI—and the guardrails needed at scale

Using jobs-to-be-done to organize AI transformation

How the CEO job has changed over 15 years

Learning to communicate

Why this year is Snapchat’s “crucible moment”

Being the “middle child” in tech

Screen-time philosophy with four kids (ages 2 to 15)

AI Corner

Contrarian Corner

Lightning round and final thoughts

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