The ultimate guide to PR | Emilie Gerber (founder of Six Eastern)

1. 0:00 – 4:56

   Emilie’s background

   1. EGEmilie Gerber0:00

      No one ever gets this tactical in PR. (laughs) There's just so much theoretical, you know, conversation and examining the big blunders. But like at the end of the day, if you are a startup that wants to get coverage for your company, you need to know like actually the steps to take to do it.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky0:13

      You mentioned a bunch of amazing companies you've worked with, Ramp, Perplexity. Most products don't have as interesting of a story to tell. How do you help find something that is a nugget?

   3. EGEmilie Gerber0:21

      You can get so in the weeds with your own messaging that you want to set up this massive problem statement, you want to make it a huge trend story. But if you're like very straightforward and you're like pattern-matching, it's generally actually going to work.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky0:32

      So I asked you to bring some examples of pitches that are great and also examples of pitches that could be better.

   5. EGEmilie Gerber0:39

      I want to read one to you and then I want to see if you can tell me what this company does. (laughs)

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky0:44

      (laughs) . Deal. Today my guest is Emily Gerber. Emily is the founder and CEO of 6Eastern, a PR agency that has worked with over 100 tech companies from stealth startups to publicly traded companies, helping them get press, build awareness, and level up their PR and comms strategy. Before starting her own firm, she worked at Uber where she led PR for the business development team and B2B programs. Prior to that, she worked at Box on product communications, with a focus on product launches and partnership announcements. In our conversation, Emily shares so many golden nuggets of advice on how to get press that I lost count. We talk about which publications to target depending on your market and story, how to craft your pitch in your outreach to reporters, how to actually reach reporters, and also how to craft your product story for people to pay attention to what you're doing, why warm introductions to reporters are actually that important, how to find podcasts and newsletters to pitch that might be even more effective than traditional media, how much it would cost you to work with a PR agency instead of doing it yourself and how much lead time you need if you do that. Also, we go through a few real-life examples of press and outreach, both good examples and bad examples and what we can learn from those. Also, we look at a pitch that Emily sent to me about a podcast guest that is a client of hers that worked and this guest is coming out in the future, so we look at what was effective about that pitch, and so much more. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Emily Gerber after a short word from our sponsors. Let me tell you about a product called Sprig. Next gen product teams like Figma and Notion rely on Sprig to build products that people love. Sprig is an AI-powered platform that enables you to collect relevant product experience insights from the right users so you can make product decisions quickly and confidently. Here's how it works. It all starts with Sprig's precise targeting which allows you to trigger in-app studies based on users' characteristics and actions taken in product. Then Sprig's AI is layered on top of all studies to instantly surface your product's biggest learnings. Sprig Surveys enables you to target specific users to get relevant and timely feedback. Sprig Replays enables you to capture targeted session clips to see your product experience firsthand. Sprig's AI is a game-changer for product teams. They're the only platform with product-level AI, meaning it analyzes data across all of your studies to centralize the most important product opportunities, trends, and correlations in one real-time feed. Visit sprig.com/lenny to learn more and get 10% off. That's S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny. This episode is brought to you by Eppo. Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams. Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp, and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments. Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features, and Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does. When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own. Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, an accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytics cycles. Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel. Eppo powers experimentation across every use case including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing. Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity. That's geteppo.com/lenny.

2. 4:56 – 12:57

   The value of press and second-order effects

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky4:56

      Emily, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

   2. EGEmilie Gerber4:59

      Yeah. Thank you for having me.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky5:01

      So we're going to be talking about press. A lot of people say that trying to get press isn't really worth your time, it doesn't drive sign-ups, it doesn't drive growth. You could spend your time on other things and have a lot more impact there. And I know that you have a really interesting perspective on second order effects of press and other benefits. So I'm curious to hear what, what's your perspective on just the idea that press isn't really worth people's time and how can press be helpful?

   4. EGEmilie Gerber5:27

      Yeah. When we were emailing about it, talking about some of the articles that you were in, um, you know, some of the coverage that you got, I, I was kind of thinking about how, you know, in your case you have multiple audiences. You have your, uh, customers which in a way are your like listeners and the people that are engaging with your con- content. So in a way you're a B2C business but in another way you're a B2B business. Um, obviously you have sponsors and, you know, you're trying to attract really great guests to come on the show. And so the, there's a second order piece of the press is kind of validating that you're something that, you know, a software company wants to sponsor. So, you know, internally they're making those decisions. Not everyone might know Lenny's podcast but they could send around a CNBC article and see that this is something very legit and something that people care about. It kind of just signals that like third party validation that I think is really important. Um, and that ties back to when you look like at a SaaS company or something and they're making decisions, having that validation I think and that credibility goes a really long way. Especially for a company that might be early stage, you know, they've raised a little bit of money. I think-Sometimes the buyers are skeptical of engaging with new tools because they're worried they might not raise more funding or it might go away tomorrow. Um, and so the more that you can validate the business through things that's not just you doing personally, that other people are doing, I think the better. So I think yeah, that's the value from the B2B perspective and it's not necessarily, yeah, going to directly drive sign-ups but when that AE is sending their sales emails and they can link to a story, I think that really helps also candidates too when you're reaching, if it's a recruiter reaching out on LinkedIn and they only have, you know, 100 characters to make their pitch, linking to that story can be really powerful. So, so those are some of the, the second order effects for B2B and then on the consumer side, it's, it's a much more complex issue. There's like affiliate marketing which is like this whole world of, you know, paid, um, where you're getting product reviews and that sort of thing and that's not really an area that I'm an expert on. But we do work with some consumer companies where press is a major driver of growth. So for instance, Perplexity, they have invested essentially zero in any paid marketing. They don't have a marketing person even, but they do do PR and so essentially after their most recent announcement, they saw, you know, a massive spike in growth, a massive spike in sign-ups, um, pro users, all of that. And I think in, in that case, the reason PR works so well is it, first of all is something that's very easy to grasp Google alternative. I, I know how to use Google. I've used Google a million times, can go to perplexity.com. The barrier to trying the product is very low. You can, you know, quickly type in a query, get the answer and then see the power of the tool. It takes one time to see the power of the tool. So in that case, I think, you know, just organic press is enough to, to generate that. There's not like a long sort of process to get the customers, um, interested. So, um, yeah. Like I mentioned, very case-to-case but, you know, in those instances it works well.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky8:18

      Man, there's so many threads I want to follow here. That was, uh, such an interesting answer. And by the way, I love Perplexity. I once tweeted a result I had when I was using Perplexity and it was one of their default questions you could ask about strawberries. Apparently strawberries are not one fruit. Strawberries are a bundle of fruits and every little, little piece of a strawberry, those little red things are individual fruits all bundled together, which blew my mind. I was like, "I need to share this." (laughs) And so I wonder how much of their growth just comes from crazy things like that.

   6. EGEmilie Gerber8:44

      Yeah, it's like the kind of tool where your, your mom could try it and, and instantly like know how to use it, and so like yeah, that, and it's, it's good for weird questions like what you chose to share. That's like where it comes in really handy.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky8:54

      And they did a great job just like defaulting, "Here's weird questions you could ask," and then wow-

   8. EGEmilie Gerber8:58

      Yeah.

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky8:58

      ... what an answer. Okay, so on the B2B side, I think this is really interesting. When people are thinking about doing the calculus of is it worth investing and trying to get press for a B2B business, related to what I, we were talking about offline. So when I, I got these stories in like Fast Company, I got a story in CNBC, I got a story in, um, Entrepreneur Magazine and I was telling you, I've seen zero growth impact from all these stories and you'd think like, "Oh wow." And like what, I had a story in a magazine, like Entrepreneur Magazine print edition.

   10. EGEmilie Gerber9:27

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky9:27

       And nothing comes from it as far as I can tell.

   12. EGEmilie Gerber9:30

       Yeah.

   13. LRLenny Rachitsky9:30

       And your point which really stuck with me is the real benefit isn't that first order growth impact. It's, and I've been doing this, is when I'm emailing potential guests telling them, "Hey check out my work or my profile in these magazines," and just having those little logos is, is, is really powerful and that's why you see the logos on people's websites. So is your, is your advice here basically for B2B businesses the most, like if the pie chart of impact of press, most of that percentage is just having a logo of an awesome publication on your website and in your outbound emails and things like that?

   14. EGEmilie Gerber10:06

       Yeah, the logo is a piece of it and then also like the, the storytelling part. You know, maybe they're not going to read eight paragraphs that you wrote about your business but if it's in the format of an article, I think they're more likely to take the time to do it. Um, one other I guess aspect of it is content. So for instance, the articles that people want to write about you are not about necessarily how great your podcast is, which it is, but more about how you created this business. And so it's more through the lens of like you're an entrepreneur, you are, you know, have built this like media empire and so that's not necessarily the kind of story that's going to drive like, you know, your, your core audience to sign up and so contents is part of it too. And so, you know, we work with companies where we get them great stories about their company culture and cool initiatives that they're doing because reporters are interested in that topic. That's not going to help their sales but it might help with something like recruiting and so, um, yeah, I think thinking that's the other, the other piece of it is thinking through the content.

   15. LRLenny Rachitsky11:03

       That's such a good point 'cause the story they're going to write about you isn't, "This is the best product you've ever seen." This is, "Oh, look at this interesting journey this startup has gone on," and that's not going to convince your customers. It's going to convince other people just to like read this publication. But the fact that they wrote about you is really beneficial. And then you're saying B2C, most of the benefit is actually driving growth and you've seen lots of examples of press driving significant, significant growth.

   16. EGEmilie Gerber11:27

       Yeah. I think it, it can be. Um, and I think this is one where yeah, it's a little more case-to-case because we have some clients where they need to invest heavily in affiliate because it's like a, you know, product reviews are what they need and, or like, you know, they want to be on lists of like the best vacuum cleaner or what, whatever sort of category and it's less about getting them big features. And so there's different ways of doing it for B2C but I, yeah, I do think it's like, yeah, there's like two camps affiliate or not affiliate. (laughs)

   17. LRLenny Rachitsky11:56

       Can you actually explain this affiliate bucket? Because I'm not actually that familiar with it.

   18. EGEmilie Gerber11:59

       I can, however we actually don't do affiliate marketing so there, there's probably going to be a lot of people (laughs) that have a, a much more insightful perspective on it. But affiliate is essentially when you work with a publication to give them a percentage of any sales that come from the piece of the article. And so, you know, if you look at, um, Business Insider's list of best personal finance tools, it'll say at the top that there's, they're getting commission. So, you know, they track the links, they figure out a certain percentage, um, and then they basically get a percentage of all the sales that come in. And it's very common. I would say most consumer companies are doing this. But yes, there's like entire agencies that are dedicated to that field.

   19. LRLenny Rachitsky12:37

       Wow. I didn't actually know that was such a big thing. Like, I've heard of affiliate marketing where you get paid for promoting something, I didn't know like Business Insider (laughs) did this as a revenue-

   20. EGEmilie Gerber12:47

       Oh, every, yeah-

   21. LRLenny Rachitsky12:48

       ... driver.

   22. EGEmilie Gerber12:48

       And I don't want to call out just, I mean it's a-

   23. LRLenny Rachitsky12:50

       Yeah.

   24. EGEmilie Gerber12:50

       I would say every, every publication that's doing product reviews for the most part, I believe, it's, it's a very common

3. 12:57 – 17:01

   When press is not worth your time

   1. EGEmilie Gerber12:57

      practice.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky12:57

      Wow. All right. I'm already learning a lot. Okay, so I definitely want to start talking about how to actually get press for your product, but one quick question about, uh, fundraising announcements. So I get, so I'm an investor in a lot of companies, very often they email me and ask for advice how to get press, and most of the time it's a fundraising milestone.

   3. EGEmilie Gerber13:19

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky13:19

      When is it worth investing trying to get press in fundraising? Like, always worth trying? Rarely worth your effort? Is it does it have to be some really impressive fundraising moment?

   5. EGEmilie Gerber13:30

      Yeah.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky13:30

      What do you suggest?

   7. EGEmilie Gerber13:32

      I also think not all pe- PR people are going to agree with this, but I do think (laughs) funding rounds you can always get a reporter to cover (laughs) .

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky13:39

      (laughs)

   9. EGEmilie Gerber13:39

      If you go about it the right way. I mean, we scope out projects that are just for funding announcements. We've never had to not finish that project, or we've never, you know, I, I wouldn't do that if it wasn't possible. So I think there's like a couple of reasons that, you know, it, it sometimes doesn't work out, but like, I guess just to take a step back on funding stories, a lot of founders automatically think that, you know, Tech... I, I raise money so TechCrunch will cover this. The reality is, as, as someone tweeted, uh, actually someone from another agency I should, uh, Propeller PR, they tweeted that they counted how many funding stories TechCrunch did in a re- in a week, and it was nine. So they had written nine funding stories in one week. And then they counted how many funding rounds actually happened that week by looking at Axios, Parada, and Fortune term sheet, and, um, it was like 50. So it seems... When you go to TechCrunch it looks like oh, it's all funding stories, so mine should be one of these. That's like not the case at all, but I do think like if you go about it the right way, you can be one of those nine. And I'm talking about TechCrunch specifically here only because the reality is they are the co- the publication that's going to be most likely to write your funding story, that's just kind of the way it works, and that's not a bad thing, like they're actually... They don't have a paywall, they tend to do a very good job, they understand it, you know, it's, it's a well-oiled machine. And so, you know, we know, like you know, if you've done a story with them, it's going to pretty much go how, how pla- how you want to plan it. So when you, when you go to pitch a funding story, I think the first thing that founders or whoever is reaching out, uh, on behalf of the company does wrong is, they kinda, they kinda convolute the message. Like when we pitch a funding story, we make it very clear, "Hey, we're reaching out with a startup launch or funding. We're offering this to you as an exclusive, meaning we're not going to pitch anyone else if you take this story. Here's the amount that's raised, here's the space that's it, here's the space they're in, and here are the investors." I think it, you can get so in the weeds with your own messaging that you want to set up this massive problem statement, you want to make it a huge trend story, you don't really say what you're trying to accomplish from it. But if you're like very straightforward and you're like pattern-matching, "Hey, this TechCrunch reporter is the one that covers fintech. I have a fintech funding round. Here's the reason my fintech funding round matters," it's generally actually (laughs) going to work. Now, it does 100% take follow-up. It's not, you're not shooting off one email, you are, you know, respectfully following up. When I follow up, I like to come in with some new information, whether it's something they had tweeted in the past couple of days, a new article that they wrote, very respectful. I try to wait like three or four days. If it's not going anywhere, then try someone else. Do that three or four times with the most relevant reporters, generally I think it works. I, I think, I, yeah, I think if you can just be like really concise and direct and say what you're looking for (laughs) out of the relationship, it, it tends to be, um, a pretty easy process. And yeah, TechCrunch is one publication, but this actually goes for a bunch.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky16:24

       Amazing. I love that we're already getting into tactical advice for how to actually get press, so that was essentially for fundraising and the notes I took is, keep it really simple. Here's how much we raise, here's our investors, here's like one line about why this matters. I want to talk later about how pitching press is different from customers. 'Cause with customers, I think this is probably the mistake a lot of people make, and we don't have to get into this just yet (laughs) , but you want to paint the picture of the market and trends and like here's where the market's going and why this is huge and, and why this is a solution to your problem versus like, bam, this is interesting for this reason, and that's it.

   11. EGEmilie Gerber16:56

       Exactly.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky16:57

       Okay. I want to talk about publications to target

4. 17:01 – 25:36

   Different publications and their suitability

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky17:01

      and what each one is best suited for. So you're talking about how TechCrunch is essentially really good for fundraising. When I think about other publications, there's like Axios and Verge, I don't know if they do press stories like this. Uh, uh, you know, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, things like that. So, I guess, what are the different publications people should have on their list of target? And then what are each of them most aligned to, story-wise?

   2. EGEmilie Gerber17:28

      I, I really love this question 'cause I feel like no one ever gets this tactical in PR (laughs) . Um, there's a lot of, there's just so much theoretical, you know, conversation and examining the big blunders, and you know, like it, it's all so high level but like at the end of the day, if you're a startup that wants to get coverage for your company, you need to know like actually the steps to take to do it. So, yeah, I really, I appreciate that question. I'm gonna answer it, but also answer it with the caveat that media changes so much and so fast, like for instance, just a couple weeks ago TechCrunch decided they no longer accept op-eds, which is like, you know, it was actually huge news for us 'cause we love doing op-eds (laughs) in TechCrunch. And so, things change all the time, but I will talk about it in its current state. Um, so yes, TechCrunch, a go-to for a lot of funding announcements, a go-to for some product news too even sometimes. Um, I would say the areas where they don't have dedicated beat reporters or we tend to end up not working with them are like health tech-related companies, and even MarTech too, we've kind of struggled to find the right folks to cover those kinds of stories. So, um, you know, not everything but generally if you do your digging, you're able to find a relevant beat reporter or a couple relevant beat reporters. And it's not just about getting coverage there. They have TechCrunch Disrupt. You can l- apply for speaking at that conference, and that sometimes actually directly turns into coverage. They have the Found Podcast, which interviews founders, and so if something, you know, if you have like a really compeller- compelling founder story, um, or topical founder story, that can be an excellent avenue to go as well. They have the Equity Pod, which is like investment advice. So there's... It, it's not just thinking about getting that, you know, one funding story with them, there are other ways to work with TechCrunch. And I actually have heard really great feedback from,... clients, um, on TechCrunch, uh, you know, driving website traffic the day of the announcement. Especially, it's, uh, I haven't really been able to pinpoint when that does or doesn't happen. Like, you know, I'm trying to figure out if there's trends among that. But I have, you know, clients have sent me screenshots from the day of the announcement and they've seen, you know, a nice pick up from TechCrunch. So, um, they're, I think, a lot of that comes down to the fact that they don't have a paywall, but their, their, their stuff tends to do really well. Um, so it's a great spot, especially for that first piece on your company. Axios is really strong on the, the fintech side, on the healthcare side. They have, um, some really great, like, beat reporters. The one thing I will say about them is they are very deals focused, so 100% would use, need to either have funding if you're, if you're announcing a partnership that has, like, a monetary component that they would cover that. A small, you know, an acquisition they would consider covering, but they're not gonna be a, you should never pitch them on a product announcement and, um, I think, you know, that might, they might just get annoyed. There's, there's a couple of exceptions. A couple of the reporters might have little columns where they feature product related things, but the, that's just not their bread and butter. And actually, Axios recently launched, or I guess, has been launching over the past, uh, year or so, um, local edition. So they're, they're really branching into local news and so that can actually be a really nice way to get an Axio- Axios hit if you have a region specific story, so I highly recommend checking that out. Um, another publication that we work with a bunch is Business Insider. If you struggle to pitch your funding story (laughs) , um, but really want it out in the world, they are big on the pitch deck stories. Those are a little controversial. You, some founders, you know, they're like, "This is not what I want my story to be about. I do not want to share my pitch deck." But if you are in the camp of, you know, you're open to that and you can, you can redact it, it does not need to have all the financials, it does not need to have the growth metrics, that can be a really great way to get the, a piece of coverage on your business. And the way that I explain it to clients is, "You're kind of just getting all your core messages out there in a real, in your, in a very direct way." Like, you're sharing exactly what you shared with investors, like act, that, there's, that's not necessarily a bad thing. And sometimes clients will put in some, like, customer slides too, and so you can, you can really kind of, um, make it a little bit more like what you're looking for. Um, so, so yes, if you're looking for a funding story, TechCrunch passed, others passed, that's a good option. Um, they also are huge on like the entrepreneurial journey kind of pieces, like similar to, you know, the CNBC article that you got. They, but they, they really want metrics, they really push for metrics and how much you're making, how much you're spending. Um, they, they love those kinds of stories. Um, so it's not necessarily about how much you raise, but for people that have really built a business. And then the last ki- the last thing for Business Insider, they do a bunch of these, like, lists of top startups, of top professionals in a field. We love doing those. They're generally a really light list and they put out a call for submissions, takes five minutes and it's a way to get into Business Insider. There's so many of them I, it's kind of become a joke within my newsletter 'cause every week there's like five more and it's the most, like, obscure different categories. (laughs) Um, like top sports marketing professionals helping TikTok stars. Like, I don't know. It's always, like, a very niche sort of, uh, ask, but those could be really great. Then a couple more. Um, VentureBeat is huge for AI news. We pitch them all the time for AI, like any, any client that we work with that is, you know, building AI capabilities, um, has a new offering related to AI, perfect publication for that. Fast Company is perfect for anything related to future of work, how people work, um, really great for design, media, like, I would say perfect for any company that fits in those categories. Um, they're also really open to op-eds, especially, like, with leadership advice in them. Um, and last but not least on the list of ones that we work with most often I would say is Forbes, especially, um, on the awards side they have the Fintech 50, AI 50, Forbes Under 30, um, all of that. And, like, you're not gonna get a feature with one of their main reporters until you're a bit further along, but they do have that really strong contributor network, um, which is much, you know, kind of, kind of a, a lower bar in what they'll, they'll accept in a way. Like, they're more open to covering earlier stage companies, so that's worth checking out too. So those are my top ones. Um, (laughs) I'll stop there. (laughs)

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky23:15

      That's amazing. And those are the most commonly requested and the ones you mostly go after?

   4. EGEmilie Gerber23:20

      Yeah. They're the most realistic for most startups. Um, there are ones like The Verge and, uh, they're a little more, they're a little more, like, gadget focused and just areas that we don't necessarily touch but could be good for, for some companies as well.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky23:33

      Got it. And then I was gonna save this for later, but there's obviously New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. Thoughts on going after those?

   6. EGEmilie Gerber23:42

      Yeah. We do get those questions all the time. I would say it comes up on calls with founders, uh, w- one out of every five.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky23:49

      (laughs)

   8. EGEmilie Gerber23:50

      Um, and, and really when you look at, uh, I, I kind of make a joke sometimes like, "Oh, if you want those, just have, like, a crisis and they'll, they'll write about it." Like, fire your CEO or do, like, really intense layoffs and, and, or yeah, um, have some regulatory issue and you'll get a story there.

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky24:03

      Uber got a lot of stories there.

   10. EGEmilie Gerber24:05

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can show, I can show some examples there. When you look at earlier stage companies that are getting coverage in those publications, that's what's happening. Now, let's say you're a tiny bit further along and you're series B, series C, you know, maybe even series D and you're looking for coverage in those publications, there's a couple criteria that they're always going to want if it's to write a feature on your company. One is your valuation, so that needs to be something that you're sharing on the record. Two is your, like, rev, like hard business metrics. Like, usually revenue, sometimes something else. And so oftentimes I'll tell founders that and immediately they're like, "Oh. Well, we're not sharing that." (laughs) So I'm like, "Okay. Well, that's kind of the end of the conversation." Um, sometimes it can be shared on background, but as a general rule, um, you're expected to share that sort of thing. So that's kind of a non-starter a lot of times. I totally think it makes sense to build relationships with the re- relevant beat reporters and ideally, like, shoot for it to... When I say build relationships, I just mean shoot for an intro meeting, um, on behalf of the clients or, you know, they can reach out directly with those kinds of reporters, but they're just not going to write a feature on your company. Um, if anything, you're going to be...... one or two sentences in a larger story, uh, of something that they're writing about. And yeah, that's just the nature of their coverage. And then when you look at something like CNBC, like their whole ... They're, they're targeting people that want to learn about public markets. And so if you're not a public company, like they have their CNBC Disruptor 50 List, which is focused on companies that will soon be at that stage, but it's not gonna be a place for, for early stage companies.

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky25:31

       When I had these pieces in Fast Company and CNBC, it was such a weird

5. 25:36 – 27:23

   Avoiding negative stories

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky25:36

      experience where I chat with them for half an hour and then it just comes out and I have no idea what they're gonna write about. Could be a complete tear down of everything I'm doing and you have no idea. How do you help try to avoid that sort of story? I know you have no control. Obviously reporters can write what they want to write about. Do you have any advice for how to avoid them writing something really negative about you? (laughs)

   2. EGEmilie Gerber25:58

      Generally if it's something where that you're being briefed in advance unless it is, you know, around something negative that's going on, that's not ... It's just not their intention. It's just not gonna, gonna happen. But, uh, what is a bigger issue is it not being the angle or the messaging that the company wants. And so part of that, I mean, there, there's absolutely nothing that we can do. They, reporters are not our employees. They're not ... We're not paying them to write these pieces. They have to, like, maintain their editorial integrity. And so, you know, I consider it my job to educate the founders and spokespeople that we work with that we cannot change anything a story says. What we can do is correct any factual inaccuracies. And so, and we do that all the time. If something's com- if something is factually wrong, we can get it replaced. But if they don't like that they were called, you know, put in a category of software that they don't identify with, that's, you know, not, uh, that's not, uh, something that we can fix. Another thing that you can do though to prevent that from happening is just really ensuring that the spokesperson before talking to the reporter is, you know, gonna nail the, the messages that they want. Um, the more that you can reiterate over and over again how you want the article (laughs) to be, I think the more likely that it'll land in the reporter's head and, and make sure that the reporter really understands what you're building and what your goals are. And you can ... All you can do is really use the briefing and the materials that you provide to kind of sway and influence, um, but there's not much beyond that.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky27:19

      You mentioned ... So we've talked about all these publications. These are ones to consider going after.

6. 27:23 – 30:55

   Finding aligned podcasts and awards

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky27:23

      You also mentioned podcasts and awards are something people go after. Is there a tip you could share of how to find aligned podcasts or awards. Like how to, how you find a list of, "Here, we should go after these."

   2. EGEmilie Gerber27:35

      When we use, we use Google. We just use search engines basically for, for finding everything. And the way that we go about it is first figuring out, like, who their customers are and what vertical they're in and then just doing searches (laughs) for podcasts that are within that vertical. But not, i- i- it's not as easy as just reaching out to the ones that pop up first. Like the next step is, like, a qualitative analysis. First of all, do they have vendor CEOs or vendor executives on their show? Let's say your product is sold at, sold to product managers. Maybe they only, maybe they only have product managers on the show, so instead you don't put the CEO forward and you put the right spokesperson.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky28:11

      Who could that be?

   4. EGEmilie Gerber28:11

      Yeah, right?

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky28:11

      What podcast might you be referring to?

   6. EGEmilie Gerber28:12

      Eh, but this is, this could be for CFOs. So fin- let, let's say you have, um, let's say you sell it into CFOs. Don't pitch your CEO for that podcast. Pitch your, you know, get a CFO (laughs) and then pitch your CFO for that podcast. I'm very for companies hiring, um, spokespe- or hiring for the roles that they sell into. It helps us a lot. So if your audience is a CFO, it really helps if you have a CFO. If your audience is a CMO, it really helps if you have a CMO. And that actually, you know, in your earlier stage isn't always the case (laughs) and so it's a lot harder to pitch. So I think that's the second part of the, like, qualitative analysis. The third is, like, podcasts really come and go. Make sure, like it's, it's ... It sounds obvious, but make sure it's one that's, like, actively producing. Like, you know, when you Google ones, you're gonna, half of them are not gonna be active podcasts. And then the third is, like, actually, you know, listening to at least part of one episode, making sure the quality is high, making sure it's the kind of thing you even wanna associate yourself with, um, and then just looking at who the past guests are. Like, is that, like, the kind of peers that you want to associate yourself with? A- and then one other thing that you can do is just, like, you know, in conversations with customers find out what they're listening to, find out what they're watching, find out, like, their media diet. And it doesn't have to be a big crazy survey that you send to your entire customer base. It can be casual. Like, we do have, we, you know ... If you're farther along it's great if you can make that a more formal sort of process, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. And then in terms of reaching out, um, I, like, highly recommend figuring out who the ho- like just doing the research, figuring out who the host is, and then just sending them, like, a casual note. Like, I'm a big fan of just reaching out on LinkedIn and saying, "Hey, love the show. Are you open to guest ideas?" I don't even mention wh- why, like, the client or anything, just, like, kind of opening the door. I just feel like that's so much more approachable and friendly than starting with a big pitch, um, and I think, you know, so many people start with this very long email introducing themselves or going really deep. And you can, you don't have to do that and especially because, you know, maybe only one out of every 10 replies. It'll also save you a lot of time (laughs) if you just start with something really lightweight.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky30:13

      I think that actually works really well. That's what I find is if it's, like, a simple little message, I'm like, "Yeah. Let me know what you got in mind." Even though most, like 99% of the time it doesn't work out, sometimes it works great and so I find, "Sure, let's just see what you got," and then usually I'm just like, "Nope, sorry, not a fit."

   8. EGEmilie Gerber30:28

      And you get the reply that way. If you send the initial pitch and the reporter or podcast host isn't interested, chances are they won't reply. But if you just start with something friendly and they reply, they'll feel, like, a little more, I guess, um, like, uh, a little more of a connection there and so at least you'll get an answer. (laughs)

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky30:45

      Yeah.

   10. EGEmilie Gerber30:45

       Whereas otherwise you might not get an answer at all.

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky30:47

       Yeah. On the survey piece, I think that's a re- great idea and I've seen a few of my sponsors do this where they ask their customers, "What podcasts

7. 30:55 – 37:23

   Advice for reaching out to reporters

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky30:55

      do you listen to? What newsletters do you read?" Which is such a simple idea, but I think people don't do that. And just from that you could figure out, okay, here's the podcasts we gotta get on. Here's the newsletters we want to run ads in. I want to talk about how to actually pitch well, but before that, we've been talking a bit about-... who to reach out to and how to do that. So there's a few questions here, it's just like, how important is to have a warm connection to a reporter? If you don't have that, what's the best way to reach out to them? Is it LinkedIn? Is it Twitter DMs? Something else? What advice do you have about just, before we get into, like, the structure of the pitch, figuring out who to pitch and then how to get to them. Advice?

   2. EGEmilie Gerber31:34

      W- who are your relationships question comes up on a lot of our calls with founders as well. I'd like to pose the question to you, did we have a relationship before this? (laughs)

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky31:43

      Nope.

   4. EGEmilie Gerber31:44

      Exactly. I am, uh, I, I, I'm of the belief that it does not matter as much as many people think it does. Um, and I explained this on calls where, where they ask, "Oh, where are, like, t- tell me about your Rolodex," or, "Who are your relationships with..." First of all, media's changing so fast, so sure, maybe there is a reporter that we worked with recently, they might have a completely different beat in six months, they might be at a very different publication. So, it's not sustainable to, you know, build an entire career on having relationships with certain pub- like, publications. And, and media's changing too, like, now podcasts and Substack and newsletters, like, it's, it's just changing too fast. And so, I, I think cold outreach done well is just as effective. The only thing that a relationship will get you is, you know, an open and an answer. And so, you know, like, any good reporter is not going to be making their editorial decisions based on, like, who their friends are. Like, that's just not the nature, it shouldn't be the nature of the industry. And it's not, maybe it'll get you, like, an intro coffee, um, but that's about it. It's not gonna get you coverage, they're not gonna cover your news because there's a relationship there. I think the much harder and more important part is being good at writing really thoughtful notes to the right people. And, and in a way now, you know, now we do have a relationship. And so, you know, it can come from a cold email, but now, you know, it's a little, it's easier for me to pitch you because you know my name and we've, we've spoken and we've worked together. And so for me, I'm, I'm a big fan of being, like, helpful to reporters and I tend to, like, you know, just keep it, like, professional and pitch them on stories. I don't necessarily feel like the h- you know, t- go- going to drinks or having coffee all the time is, like, crucial to, like, building those relationships. Um, a lot of the reporters that I work with regularly, I've never met in person and that's okay, but, you know, I, it, it can be, it can be great for getting answers, I would say. That's where the relationships can, can help, could be helpful. And then once you have worked with a reporter on a story, it's true that they may- maybe they'll be more likely to come back when they're working on something related, you know, use you as a source, use you, quote you in articles that are relevant. So, like, once there's something there, that's great, and you should totally nurture it, but I, it's not all about calling in favors.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky33:52

      Awesome. Okay. And then in terms of how to reach reporters, what do you find most effective?

   6. EGEmilie Gerber33:59

      Yeah. I'm, I'm, uh, pro, like, all platform approach. So sometimes, um, eh, reporters will tweet that they're working on a story about something and rather than me sending them an email with my pitch, I'll say, "Hey, 10 words on why this person's the person (laughs) you should talk to," and then send a link to an article on them. And that's my entire pitch. And honestly, it's sometimes more effective than when I write, you know, spend 30 minutes writing a really thoughtful email. Um, so I'm a fan of that. I'm a fan of DMs, short, you know, concise, direct DMs. Sometimes LinkedIn, although for whatever reason, I feel like that works better with podca- um, on the podcast side with hosts. And then of course, email. Like, we, we totally email. When, when I email a reporter, I love to make the subject line just, like, as clear as possible, like, as what the goal is and what, why I'm emailing them. And so let's say it's for a recurring column that they have, I'll put the name of that column and, like, the person that I think should be included in the subject line. And even that for a reporter, it's like, "Oh, they actually know," (laughs) like, "they actually know I write this column and they're suggesting a guest for this column." It's so direct, it's so clear. I think just, yeah, saying what your intentions are right away, like, are you trying to get a Q&A? Are you trying to get a story? Like, are you trying to get a funding story? Like I mentioned before, um, is very crucial. Um, and keeping it short. I would say my most successful pitches are three sentences. And anytime it needs t- sometimes it needs to be longer than that, than that. And generally, I feel like my p- pitch is w- weaker for that reason. You know, attention spans are short. And so the more concise you can make it, the better. And then just, you know, if one plat- sometimes I'll start with one platform, like, I'll start with an email and that doesn't work, so I'll go somewhere else. But I try to make it very human and respectful. So using language like, "Hey, I know your inbox is probably slammed, you know, so sorry to annoy, trying you one more time here." Another thing that actually can work really well is pointing out gaps in their, their coverage too, and talking about things that they should be talking about. Like, "Hey, my client's noticing this trend. Um, I know you've covered it from this point of view, but no one's talking about it from this point of view." That can be really helpful 'cause it shows that you are actually paying attention to what they are writing, um, but in a way that you're, like, kind of demonstrating that you have some critical thinking going on, not just, "I liked your article on X," which is a common practice that PR people kind of use is, you know, "I, you know, I liked this," and then jump to your pitch. So yeah, giving it a little more thoughtful, pointing out gaps in coverage. Um, and then the last piece is, especially if you don't have hard news that you're pitching, having something, like, pretty controversial to say. So, eh, like, we work with a lot of AI companies. If nine of them, you know, have one stance on, you know, the, something happening in the field and one has the other stance, chances are that one is going to be the one that a reporter wants to talk to because they are getting so many pitches on this topic, but they wanna write a balanced article, they need that opposing view. And so we really push our clients to have something, you know, unique and different and bold to say. And it obviously has to be a strategic decision for the business, like, you don't want to go commenting on regulatory things if that's not (laughs) it's totally, you don't wanna, you know, necessarily, um, be a part of that conversation. But there are, I think, instances where it can make a lot of sense to say something that's a little bit bold and controversial.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky37:15

      That last piece is really interesting. Is there an example that comes to mind where you had a controversial contrarian pitch?

8. 37:23 – 41:16

   Controversial pitches

   1. EGEmilie Gerber37:23

      Yeah. Um, so we work with a company called Clockwise, which essentially, um, you know, manages your calendar and allows time for focus time within your work day. They move things around for you. And a couple months ago, Shopify got tons of positive press for essentially like canceling all their recurring meetings, and everyone was, you know, very intrigued by this strategy. Press was generally quite positive towards it. And so we knew that if we just wrote another piece saying, "Oh, this is great," no one would want to publish that. That just isn't, you know, it had been said in a million different ways. So we looked at the topic a little more critically and we're like, "Okay. Is this actually enough to change meeting culture within a business?" And we kind of identified all these other things that we think need to happen in order to really, like, change the culture in a way that's gonna be sustainable and long-term versus just like blanket, like, deleting of calendar meetings. And so we ended up turning this into an op-ed, so something that together we wrote and then pitched to a publication. And yeah, the title was Shopify's meeting cost calculator does not dress- address the issue of wasted time. And so, you know, it's not an... it wasn't necessarily saying it was a horrible idea, but it was like putting, you know, a little more critical... a, a little bit more of a critical eye towards it. And Fast Company was interested in the idea and they, they posted the piece by, uh, the CEO, Matt Martin, um, and it was like a great thing for us to comment on. And so yeah, I think it, it doesn't... it doesn't necessarily need to be something where you're coming out against it, but just like, you know, proposing something that's a little more, um, thoughtful on the topic.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky38:53

      Like, just hearing that, it sounds like such an obvious thing to do. Basically, a reporter's looking for an interesting story to write about. If you tell them something interesting that they could put out, that's a win-win for everybody. So, uh, makes a ton of sense. Let me try to summarize the advice you've shared so far when you're, say, DMing a reporter. Your advice so far is basically be very direct. Just tell them, "Hey, I'm looking for..." What's, like, an example of being direct? Is it like, "I'm looking for, uh, a story on this fundraising announcement?"

   3. EGEmilie Gerber39:19

      I wouldn't say I'm looking for it. I don't know, just 'cause I would say, um, I would if it was a DM, I would say, "Reaching out from X company, would love to offer you the first... the, the, the launch story alongside their funding if you're open to it." And, and usually I'd either say the amount and the investors or the company name. If you give them both, you're kind of just giving them the story and they could run with it right away. That's actually an important distinction. Um, and so you could either say, "Reaching out with, uh, this, you know, MarTech company that's raised eight million from X investors. Really interesting approach they're taking on X incumbent. Um, do you want the exclusive?" That's kind of how I would phrase it.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky39:59

      Okay, awesome. Uh, then try to keep it to three sentences, and you're saying sometimes when you go longer, you actually end up backfiring each time. Sometimes include a link to a story they've written or some other story about the company that might give them some context. Is that right?

   5. EGEmilie Gerber40:15

      Yeah. And, and, and a caveat on that is if a competing publication just wrote a sim- like, a bigger-

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky40:21

      Right.

   7. EGEmilie Gerber40:21

      ... similar feature on that, they're not gonna want to see that.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky40:24

      Right.

   9. EGEmilie Gerber40:24

      And so I would use that, like, strategically. Like, is it... if it's like an old... if it's a piece from a while ago on a different topic that does share a lot of info, I'll include it, but I'm not necessarily gonna include something that might seem like why would I cover this when this was just written about?

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky40:37

       Good point. You also talked about how try to, like, acknowledge their inbox is probably slammed and this is, you know, taking some time. Maybe in follow-ups especially, like, "Hey, realized your inbox is slammed. Just thought I'd come back to this." Then you talk about this idea of identifying gaps in their writing. Like, "Hey, it seems like you cover gen AI. There's this trend that we've been noticing that maybe it would be interesting to cover," and then something controversial or something a little contrarian that would get them, "Oh, yeah, this could be a really interesting story." Awesome.

   11. EGEmilie Gerber41:08

       Yeah.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky41:09

       Is there anything else broadly in terms of pitch advice to get the attention of a reporter

9. 41:16 – 43:26

   Avoiding category creation

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky41:16

      that comes to mind? And I know this is, like, a, a lifetime of experience and-

   2. EGEmilie Gerber41:22

      Yeah.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky41:22

      ... it's hard to summarize all of it, but anything else?

   4. EGEmilie Gerber41:24

      Well, one topic, um, m- maybe with this would be covered elsewhere, but one topic I think, um, is talking about incumbents that this company is taking on.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky41:33

      Mm.

   6. EGEmilie Gerber41:34

      So a lot of companies want to position themselves as category creators, and I actually hate that. (laughs) I... it doesn't, it doesn't work. It doesn't land with press, and most of the time, it's not totally true. And so instead, it's actually really great when you can talk about how you are doing what X household name does but better for X reasons. And that works so well. I'll put that in subject lines. I'll put, you know, company taking on, you know, whatever Salesforce, um, with X approach. It's so successful because instantly it gives the reporter a frame of reference, and so it gives the reporter, "Oh, I know, I know what Salesforce does, so I can understand how this solution would be better." And a lot of companies really want to position themselves as the first to do anything in the spa- in a certain space. They love, like, the idea of category creating, you know, creating, you know, like, these, like, little marketing phrases that they use for the new category. And I... and that's fine if, you know, I... if perhaps that works on the sales side, but on the PR side, I would never have put that in a pitch.

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky42:35

      There's just gonna be a meta comment, but I... there's two, uh, contro- like, the two topics that are most controversial in this podcast that I have both sides (laughs) of opinions on is the power of category creation and jobs to be done. Those are the... (laughs)

   8. EGEmilie Gerber42:48

      Oh, really? (laughs)

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky42:49

      There's a lot of-

   10. EGEmilie Gerber42:50

       Wait, so-

   11. LRLenny Rachitsky42:50

       ... passion on both sides.

   12. EGEmilie Gerber42:51

       (laughs) I mean, sure. You can point to, like, examples of, like, the two companies that have done category creation well, but, like, (laughs) are you like that... It's two out of what? Like, thousands? (laughs)

   13. LRLenny Rachitsky43:02

       I, I love it. I'm gonna... you gotta keep-

   14. EGEmilie Gerber43:04

       (laughs)

   15. LRLenny Rachitsky43:04

       (laughs) ... poking this hornet's nest.

   16. EGEmilie Gerber43:06

       Yeah.

   17. LRLenny Rachitsky43:06

       I love it. Okay.

   18. EGEmilie Gerber43:07

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. LRLenny Rachitsky43:07

       But you're saying in your experience it doesn't work when pitching reporters?

   20. EGEmilie Gerber43:10

       For PR. Yeah.

   21. LRLenny Rachitsky43:11

       For PR, yeah. Great, great.

   22. EGEmilie Gerber43:11

       Simply for PR, and, and on other areas of the business, I g- I can't comment on, but for PR, it's just not, not a useful tactic.

   23. LRLenny Rachitsky43:18

       Okay. Awesome.This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security

10. 43:26 – 52:35

    Examples of pitches that have worked well

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky43:26

       practices, things get complicated fast. Now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more with a single platform, Vanta. Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risks. Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI. Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny. That's vanta.com/lenny. So I asked you to bring, uh, some examples of pitches that are great and also examples of pitches that could be better.

    2. EGEmilie Gerber44:20

       Yeah.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky44:20

       And I know... Yeah, okay, cool, so thank you for doing your homework.

    4. EGEmilie Gerber44:23

       (laughs) .

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky44:24

       Let's pull 'em up and then I'd love to just show people what you find has been really effective and works great about these examples and then what somebody-

    6. EGEmilie Gerber44:31

       Yeah.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky44:31

       ... could have done better, whatever you want to share about that example.

    8. EGEmilie Gerber44:34

       Sure, sure. Sounds good. I guess since we're on the topic of category creating versus not category creating, I'll start with an example that's very relevant to that. So we worked with Ramp in their very early days and one of their first product announcements that we did together was the launch of their bill pay offering, um, and so at the time I think they were like a three billion dollar company, something along those lines. So big but not as big as they are today. Product news rarely gets, you know, big feature coverage, especially for something along the lines of a bill pay offering for B2B companies. Um, and so essentially the way that we framed the story was a- was how Ramp was now able to take on Bill.com which at the time, I'm not sure if it still is, was one of the best performing fintech IPOs public company that really had still only captured 2% of this market overall. And so by positioning it as allowing them to take on this like massive incumbent that was getting a lot of press, uh, we actually were able to get a CNBC story, um, on the launch of this product. You know, generally they won't even consider product stories but they really liked the angle of this underdog like doing something that could take on a piece of market share from them. And I... The next day there was actually another story about how Bill.com's stock had gone down (laughs) uh, but they didn't make mention of Ramp's news in that story. So it ended up really just like it was a very powerful, um, way of telling the, the narrative there. And you know, another way if we hadn't pitched it like that would have just been like Ramp brings simple, seamless, streamlined ability to do vendor payments and new finance offering. First of its kind... Like, like all these things like that might be like how you would talk in your customer emails but if I had pitched it that way like probably wouldn't have been a story. So if we had pitched it as them, you know, creating a new category of this all-in-one software which tech- I mean yeah that, it could be argued that's another way to tell the story. Um, I don't think CNBC would have been interested.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky46:34

       Awesome.

    10. EGEmilie Gerber46:36

        Um, so okay another example. Uh, we work with a company called Column Tax which is embedded tax filing software so essentially they work with other fintechs to allow people to, uh, file their taxes within the tools that they already use and last year they, they partnered, um, with a company called Propel that offers SNAP benefits. So essentially for low-income, uh, families to receive, uh, government benefits to offer tax filing directly within the app that they've created. And that was kind of one thing that they were doing amidst, you know, many other customers that they had. Um, lots of different threads we could pull on with them but we decided to like really just focus our press strategy on that one initiative because it allowed us to tell a kind of like macro story about, you know, TurboTax, um, had to pay all these fines for like practices that many considered unsavory around calling themselves free but not really being free. Um, the IRS is building a free filing system but it's in its very early days. So the fact that they were having this offering that was like supporting a lot of low-income families and I believe 40% of the people that filed their taxes with Column hadn't, hadn't filed taxes in the previous year so hadn't gotten a return. It, it's like identifying the piece of the story that's most interesting and then like doubling down on that so we were able to get like a great Fast Company piece, um, instead of pitching this like macro, like here are Column Tax's latest growth metrics and they're announcing a partnership with Propeller and so it's like figuring out how to tie it to these like things that people actually care about and like not just like the company's messaging I think is, is our job.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky48:12

        Amazing. Is there another, any other examples? Otherwise I'll share your pitch of someone coming on my podcast and what worked about that.

    12. EGEmilie Gerber48:20

        I do want to share one more-

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky48:22

        Please.

    14. EGEmilie Gerber48:22

        ... because it's my favorite. I want to share my favorite funding story-

    15. LRLenny Rachitsky48:25

        Let's do it.

    16. EGEmilie Gerber48:25

        ... um, that I, that I worked on and so um, I'm actually going to pull it up because this one is very graphic. Um, in terms of how we went about showing the product. So we worked with a company called Gamma which is essentially like bringing, uh, PowerPoint into something that's much more modern and interactive and usable. So when we did their launch they were a seed stage company. We were trying to get really creative with how we could display or talk about the company and so instead of doing your standard kind of company blog post we actually made a Gamma presentation and we kind of included all these like fun elements that made it like really interesting for reporters. Um, so firstly it's a visual platform so we created uh... Or actually I don't want to take credit for this. The Gamma team created this great visual. Um, and we kept it like very to the point. Every year half a billion people create pre- presentations in Google Slides and PowerPoint like we're not, you know, we're not using marketing language here. We're talking in a very direct way. We're including fun visuals.We talk about like, you know, Gamma's mission, pretty short, like this is not, uh, this is not like a long essay on why the company exists. Um, and then we include some customer love. So they're early stage, so we didn't really have necessarily like growth metrics that we wanted to share, so we tried to make it a little bit more personal and focus on actual users and what they're saying, while also showing the product capability here. Um, and then, you know, instead of doing a long thing on each investor, we just bulleted who the investors are which was like very to the point, easy for a reporter to repurpose. Uh, and then the, the fun part that I really loved is we did a video from the lead investor talking about why she invested instead of including an investor quote. Um, so it, it's like a little bit different than what you kind of expect, and their videos are fun 'cause they have like all these interactive elements. Um, and yeah, team photo, make it a little more personal, and that was about it. But anyways, it was very, uh, it was a very successful story and, um, I believe the title of the TechCrunch article that we got as a result was Gamma brings PowerPoint into the 21st century. Exactly. That's like exactly what we were talking, you know, if maybe they are creating a new category and we weren't talking about it then, we're talking about how it's better than the existing solutions. Um, and so yeah, I think it's, I guess, the piece of advice there is feel free to get like kind of fun and creative with it and don't just follow the typical like issuing press release format.

    17. LRLenny Rachitsky50:42

        And is that something we could link to for people to check out? Is that just on their site?

    18. EGEmilie Gerber50:46

        Yeah.

    19. LRLenny Rachitsky50:46

        Okay, amazing.

    20. EGEmilie Gerber50:46

        Yeah. I actually had to, for some reason, do some digging to get it but I can... Yeah, I have it now so I can give it to you. (laughs)

    21. LRLenny Rachitsky50:51

        Okay, great. And the way that you use that is when you sent emails or DMs to reporters, you included this link?

    22. EGEmilie Gerber50:58

        After they had agreed-

    23. LRLenny Rachitsky50:59

        Mm-hmm.

    24. EGEmilie Gerber50:59

        ... that they were potentially interested. Um, 'cause it, again, like if I had shared it right off the bat th- they, it would be their prerogative to just, um, publish it essentially or share it publicly. Um, and I guess one important note is everything you say to a reporter in an email is on the record and so that's why I make the point on not sharing the entire story right off the bat.

    25. LRLenny Rachitsky51:19

        Got it. So many companies won't have, they're not like a deck product so they can't do something like this, but the takeaways for other folks here is be just like very human in the language, keep it th- like the investors are just bullet points, make it fun, add some visuals, don't just like have blurbs and paragraphs and things like that.

    26. EGEmilie Gerber51:41

        Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it's, um, reporters are used to getting the same thing all the time and so, you know, this one obviously worked well for the format but I think, you know, we try to always think of like what can we do that's like slightly different for this one or like how can we make this a little more fun? Um, I guess the one exception, if the product is very technical and you have a very technical audience and you're probably gonna work with a very technical reporter, i- i- it's totally fine to, you know, talk to your audience in those cases, um, and you don't need to necessarily dumb it down so everyone can understand but that doesn't mean... I mean, you can do that while still using clear and concise language.

    27. LRLenny Rachitsky52:18

        Okay, so let me share the element of the pitch that you sent me that convinced me to bring this guest on. So this is like gonna be the chief product officer at NewBank. I had no, like I barely know anything about NewBank and so in your email to me, you basically had just two bullet points and the way you put it is, "Two other,

11. 52:35 – 55:42

    Pitching to Lenny

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky52:35

       two fun facts about NewBank, growth has been 80 to 90% organic because of the way they try to make customers fanatical about the product." And to me that's like wow, that's very rare, is 80 to 90% of your growth being organic so that to me was like that's an interesting story. And then the other tidbit is, "NewBank is bigger than Coinbase, Robinhood, Affirm, SoFi and Lemonade combined. Seriously, so much bigger than people in the US realize," which I 100% didn't realize. So to me it w- both were just like, okay, this is an interesting story to tell. I think people would be very curious to hear how a company like this operates. So now I'm gonna start getting all these emails from people, all these, these couple bullet points.

    2. EGEmilie Gerber53:14

       (laughs)

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky53:14

       But-

    4. EGEmilie Gerber53:14

       They're gonna, they're gonna combine a bunch of companies and see which they're bigger than. (laughs)

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky53:18

       (laughs) Yeah. Just, or use, uh, AI to help them figure this out.

    6. EGEmilie Gerber53:21

       Yeah. (laughs)

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky53:22

       But I think what you identified here is just like what I get excited about. Is there any advice there of just like how to, what you do there that other people can learn from?

    8. EGEmilie Gerber53:32

       Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think with pitching you, like speaking to the audience is, you know, it's not just about having... You, you don't want like the m- m- most well-known CEOs all the time. You're not looking just for the biggest companies and like the most well-known people. You're looking for like the things that they can talk about and how the things that they can talk about are relevant to, uh, your audience and so I try to index on, like with the first bullet, it was indexing on that. The second bullet was more so like, hey, you might not know about this company and th- it's a little bit of a unique one, I wouldn't necessarily always include that but, uh, yeah, to me the first bullet was really what mattered because it wasn't just about the fact that they were a huge company, it's that they grew in a unique way and I knew that was like the kind of thing that you'd be interested in.

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky54:13

       And how did you figure that out? Is it from emails we were exchanging ahead of that? Is it listening to some podcasts? How did you get to those conclusions?

    10. EGEmilie Gerber54:21

        Y- y- yeah, listening certainly helps but I do think like just figuring out like even if you, i- if you even just scrolled like the names of all the episodes that you've done, it would be pretty easy to spot a trend there and so, you know, you're not talking abo- about product launches, you are not talking about entrepreneurial journeys, you're talking about tactical lessons and so pitching people based on those sort of things like I, I don't even think you necessarily need to listen to a whole bunch of episodes most of the time. Maybe occasionally you want to gut check something before you reach out but, yeah, you can tell a lot just by doing like a little bit of, of research. And then we did have a little back and forth 'cause I will take responsibility I did try pitching you on a CEO at one point, um, which I know you don't, uh, (laughs) I, you don't have on a- as guests and so-

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky55:03

        Once in a while, very rarely.

    12. EGEmilie Gerber55:05

        Yeah and I had known... Yeah, actually idea there's obviously some exceptions but, um, I had known the subject matter you were looking for but I did not spot the trend that you never had CEOs on so I think my pitch was actually okay but the spokesperson was not the kind of person that you would want on so, so, you know, maybe you won't get it right 100% of the time but you can tell a lot just by doing some searches.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky55:24

        And oftentimes I just reply, "Here's my policy" and then, okay, good to know. K- kind of along these lines, something I wanted to ask earlier-You mentioned a few publications to go after, and then how to pitch people. Obviously the way that you're describing takes a bunch of time. How many people are you often emailing/DMing

12. 55:42 – 57:44

    Effective pitching strategies

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky55:42

       per attempt to get a story? 'Cause it sounds like it's not a ton, and so you have time to do these sorts of custom pitches. Or is it a lot higher than it sounds?

    2. EGEmilie Gerber55:51

       I would say for hard news like, like funding, startup launch, those sort of, those sort of things, less. And I try to really stagger it 'cause we're offering s- exclusives and I highly recommend offering exclusives. So the worst thing that can happen is two reporters reply and are both interested and you have to go back to one and say, "Never mind." And, and sometimes that's okay if they left you, you know, if it's been a c- a week or something, they hadn't gotten back and they'll, they'll be, they'll understand. So, you know, it's, it's fine to move on without getting an answer. So I would say, yeah, with a funding story it could be anywhere from one to six reporters on average, sometimes more. With stuff like, you know, like general just like outreach, um, you know, relationship building, trying to get on podcasts, it kind of is a numbers game, and you really have to balance quality and quantity (laughs) . And that's why I love starting with the first note and not saying much, and just saying, "Hey, you open to guest ideas?" Because it allows you to kind of do more. I'd rather do that than send a bad pitch and like not have it be targeted to the right, like, sort of, like audience, um, uh... And so, uh, that's kind of a way to play the numbers game while still being respectful. Um, but yeah, I mean, you know, with some clients maybe we get one opportunity for every 20 or 30 things that we send. And so, yeah, we, we try not to do like blasting. We don't do blasting media lists, it's not about sending the same person, uh, or the same, uh, pitch to a, a single list of people. Um, it's figuring out, you know, which ones do I want to really double down on 'cause they're the perfect target and, you know, you'll keep trying, you'll be really custom, which deserve maybe a slightly higher level note, which deserve like a DM, and just kind of like figuring out your strategy from that.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky57:27

       Awesome. Okay. Do you have examples of pitches/announcements that were not as effective as they could have been, and advice for how they could have been better?

    4. EGEmilie Gerber57:37

       Yeah. I have some excerpts that I pulled from press releases where I think there's room for improvement. So, Lenny,

13. 57:44 – 1:03:01

    Improving pitch announcements

    1. EGEmilie Gerber57:44

       I wanna, I wanna read one to you and then I want, I want to see if you can tell me what this company does. (laughs)

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky57:50

       (laughs) Okay.

    3. EGEmilie Gerber57:52

       Okay. "Today, X announced their workflow automation product which combines AI assistance, human in the loop collaboration, and a robust multi-player experience to help teams save time."

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky58:02

       Absolutely no idea what's going on.

    5. EGEmilie Gerber58:04

       (laughs) It's like you kind of gain something from workflow automation and then after that it's like, "Wait, what?"

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky58:09

       Just a bunch of things.

    7. EGEmilie Gerber58:10

       Okay. Now let me read too the TechCrunch title that they, or an e- an excerpt from the TechCrunch article that... And this is, this is how TechCrunch positioned it. "A new automation startup is setting out to eat Zapier's lunch. It helps people tackle mundane repetitive tasks and goes beyond the triggers and actions popularized by similar platforms like Zapier." So like, to me, yeah, it's like a better version of Zapier where they like aren't just doing triggers and actions and there's like a little more substance and depth to it. Like, you know, if you know what Zapier is you can kind of start to figure out what they do based on that.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky58:41

       Yeah, comes back to your point about referencing a incumbent to help you understand what the heck you're talking about.

    9. EGEmilie Gerber58:47

       And you wouldn't necessarily need to do that in like your press release, but I think, you know, they could have been like a lot, like a lot clearer, um, and not use... 'Cause e- I mean, t- terms like robust multi-player experience, like that makes it sound like a game. Are we talking about just like collaborative like multiple users? Human in the loop collaboration, aren't... isn't all collaboration between humans (laughs) like and work all in the loop? Like AI assistance, that just means they use AI. So yeah, it's like sometimes I, I, I push my clients like, "Okay, let's talk through what each of these phrases actually means." 'Cause if, I- if you can't like articulate it (laughs) , and if you can articulate it, then let's change it to the way that you just articulated it and it might be more successful. So yeah, that's a good way to do it. And, and just like read it out loud. Like read it out loud and see if someone understands it.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky59:34

        Someone hearing this is like, "How could possibly anybody think that was great?" How, how did these come about, these really bad descriptions? Like I know it's hard to come up with something really short and pithy, but where do these come from?

    11. EGEmilie Gerber59:46

        I just think there's th- it's just like a culture within marketing and comms of this is how we're supposed to write. And I just think that's a majority of how people do it, and they think it sounds smart or they think it sounds like more professional or I, I, I just think it's just how people are trained. Um, and so even when... Like I don't know, like when we bring on someone new, like part of my job is stripping away at a lot of that and, and getting people... Like I, you know, everyone's capable of talking like a human being. We do it every day. Um, but it's like stripping away that like thing that goes off in your head that you're supposed to be writing in a very marketing-y way. 'Cause I would say at least 50% of releases are like that. It's not a small, it's not a small problem.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:00:29

        Right. Uh, I love the advice you shared of just trying to say it out loud, hearing yourself what does it sound like. Do you have any other tips for trying to make it something people get and connect to? I know that again this is like what they, takes a lot of time to really do well and it's very context specific, but is there any other tricks that you find help you communicate what you're actually offering?

    13. EGEmilie Gerber1:00:48

        It's talking through like the basic questions like what does this product do? Who is it for? Who are your customers? Like if you can answer each of those in one sentence, like what, what product launch are we talking about here? Like if you can just answer each of those like verbally, chances are you're not going to be far away from what you're looking for 'cause when I talk to marketers and founders and, and teams, generally like in the conversations I have no trouble understanding what they're talking about. They can articulate it just fine. It's only in the writing that it gets that way (laughs) . So I actually don't... I- I think it's like kind of easier to solve than, um, than many might realize. And then also, I think there is some skill involved in like, um, like removing words, not over-explaining. Like you can make things more concise, but at, at the bare minimum just like strip out all the jargon. That's like the first step.

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky1:01:37

        I love it. So-... like, one way to think about it is, just think about who is this? What does it do? Who is it for? Who are the customers? Is there something else along those li- that you shared there, as a bullet point?

    15. EGEmilie Gerber1:01:45

        Well, I mean, if you're talking about, like, what goes into, like, you know, what's ... what makes this business interesting? Like, why, why, why should people care? Um, and not over-indexing on that. I think that's just one part of the overall story, is w- why people should care about this business. Yeah, and then, you know, like, what's new? Is it growth metrics? Is it the customer piece?

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:05

        Yeah.

    17. EGEmilie Gerber1:02:05

        Is it product? Like, what's, what's, what makes this timely and relevant right now?

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:08

        Okay, awesome. There's actually this awesome Twitter thread from a couple of days ago where the CEO of Product Hunt did this thread where he asked people, "Share your tagline, and I will give you a much better version of the tagline." And he's really good at this. So I'm gonna link to it in the show notes where he can give you an example of what it looks like from bad to good.

    19. EGEmilie Gerber1:02:26

        I love that. That's exactly the kind of thing I would love to do too. (laughs) Uh, it's so, it's so fun and so easy. (laughs)

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:33

        It, it's easy if you're good at it, right? Most people are not very-

    21. EGEmilie Gerber1:02:35

        (laughs)

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:35

        ... not great at it. You, you mentioned press release in this example you shared. Thoughts on value of press release, traditional press release versus not?

    23. EGEmilie Gerber1:02:44

        Press releases came about because reporters would be checking newswires for ideas of what stories they want to write. No reporters do that anymore, um, or a very small percentage. I don't know any reporters that do that anymore.

14. 1:03:01 – 1:07:06

    Press releases

    1. EGEmilie Gerber1:03:01

       So now, it's this thing where you go to one of the PR distribution services, you pay them anywhere between $300 to $2,000. That's literally what it costs, and they put it on the wire. And for the more expensive services, it does get syndicated to this, like, press release section of some business websites. No one, in my opinion, goes there for their news. Um, I've personally never read an article, um, like a Yahoo Finance article that was a press release syndication. So in that sense, they are not helpful for, um, getting eyeballs. They also require, like ... Going back to that, like, more marketing form of writing, they require that you write like that. Like, that's, the, the standard press release format-

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:41

       Mm-hmm.

    3. EGEmilie Gerber1:03:42

       ... is, it's so formulaic, and I think it actually, like, encourages that more marketing speak. The benefit is that you're getting all the news details in one place, so it's relevant from a re- for a reporter. However, you can do the exact same thing in a blog post, and the blog post can be this first person piece of content that's written by either the founder or the product lead or, you know, whatever executive, um, that has a lot more flexibility in the style. You can kind of write it however you want. It can still include all the same news elements, and it's much more shareable on social. Like, you're not gonna share a link to a press release on, on your Twitter or on your LinkedIn, but a blog for sure. You can add your own, like, graphics. It's, it's great. Um, and you're also encouraging people to go to something that lives on your website versus, like, this, like, black hole of a newsletter. I should be fair. So I think that the reason that people say that they still do them is that it helps with SEO. However, I've read a few articles that have said it, that Google no longer does prioritize press releases in SEO, so I, I don't know how much that holds up, and that it signals to the market that the company is more serious. So that's a perception thing. I personally, uh, think that blogs actually signal a more modern kind of cool company (laughs) um, than a, than a press release. But, um, at a certain stage in your growth, like public companies, they do press releases for earnings, makes 100% sense. Um, there are certain rules around when companies do need to issue press releases, so there's still a use case for them. I just think your average early to mid-stage startup doesn't need them.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:05:10

       This mention of blogs is where I wanted to go next, actually. So it's a good segue, but before we do that, is there any other examples that you wanted to share of, uh, less than ideal ways of pitching a product?

    5. EGEmilie Gerber1:05:21

       One sentence I found in a press release that a lot of companies want to include that I always try to remove is ... Well, here, I'll, I'll give you the sentence. "Since exiting stealth in May, we've witnessed a seven per- 700% increase in organizations using our product." You're saying that since you were in stealth to now, you saw a 700% increase? So you could have had one customer, now you have seven? And it's like every company wants to do these percentage, like, growth stats when they just launched, and I've never seen reporters include that in their stories. And so, there are ways to give signals of how fast you're growing without being that, kinda, like, disingenuous. Like, one way, um, that you could put something similar is, "Our revenue hit six figures at the end of last year and has been growing about 30% each quarter-"

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:07

       Mm.

    7. EGEmilie Gerber1:06:07

       "... with 40% of adoption coming from the enterprise sector." So you're giving, like, color to the growth, um, and, and there's, like, you, you can kinda play with that. It doesn't need to be exactly something like that. But if you can make it a little more specific, it, I'm not against doing percentages, um, but I think there's a way to balance that with something that seems a little more realistic.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:25

       Or, like, "We went from zero to 100 to six figures in ARR in X months."

    9. EGEmilie Gerber1:06:29

       Yeah. Yeah, totally. And it doesn't need to be huge, especially if you're doing your first story. They're not, they're not expecting that you're necessarily going to have massive revenue. And so I think founders m- might sometimes be concerned that it's not gonna seem, like, big enough or significant enough, um, whereas, you know, from working with a lot of companies, it's kind of, it's kind of the case across the board.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:49

        You mentioned a bunch of amazing companies you've worked with, Ramp, Perplexity, a few others, and, you know, people may feel like, of course you're getting press. Those are amazing. They, Ramp grew to 100 million ARR in like two years. Perplexity is this killer AI product. Everyone's talking about AI. Most products are not

15. 1:07:06 – 1:09:41

    Crafting a compelling story

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:07:06

       that. They don't have as interesting of a story to tell. Is there either an example you could share of a company that didn't have, like, an amazing story to tell that you created an interesting story out of? Or just any advice for, like, how do you help find something that is a nugget, that gets people excited?

    2. EGEmilie Gerber1:07:23

       So some of the examples I gave, so, uh, Clockwise and ColumnTax aren't big as, uh, aren't as big as, um, some of the other brands I mentioned. So, um, that's certainly actually the bulk of our business. I would say 80% of the companies we work with are, are at a stage where they haven't reached that kind of mass awareness yet.Um, another really great company that we work with, um, is Entropy. And so essentially they, uh, they work with like transaction data. They're an API. It's a very technical tool. It's not something that necessarily every reporter's gonna instantly understand. But for them, we've actually really leaned into the founder's story. Um, she's this incredible woman, um, who moved to the US and actually struggled with getting her first apartment here because of the way that our kind of, uh, credit system is set up, uh, credit scoring system is set up. And one of the use cases for what she's building actually directly relates to how our credit system could change in the future. And so we've been really leaning into that angle. Um, and she's just like, her personal story is really powerful. And so, you know, maybe sometimes the product isn't going to be something that you can easily pitch but you can kind of find those other like personal angles in, um, or pull on certain threads.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:33

       And there it connects back to find a publication that cares about these sorts of personal stories, 'cause TechCrunch most probably won't.

    4. EGEmilie Gerber1:08:40

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and, but we've been also been, we got our, um, she spoke at Money 20/20-

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:44

       Mm-hmm.

    6. EGEmilie Gerber1:08:44

       ... so it's like useful for speaking abstracts too. Um, actually was on a, a panel with Collum Tax. We got them on together at Money 20/20.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:52

       Mm-hmm. What a-

    8. EGEmilie Gerber1:08:52

       Um-

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:52

       ... what a win.

    10. EGEmilie Gerber1:08:54

        (laughs) Um, no, and we love doing that. It's so fun when you do have multiple companies that you can connect. Actually that's kind of a good macro point as well. N- it doesn't always n- need to just be about you. If you have an idea for, you know, a conference session, put it, uh, reaching out to, you know, colleagues that you've worked with at other companies, peers, people that are building other things that maybe don't compete but are in a similar space, and packaging that up as like, hey, this could be a really strong panel. It's actually way more successful than just pitching yourself.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky1:09:24

        Awesome. Okay. So you've mentioned a couple of times the rise of newsletters and podcasts. So there's kind of two buckets of questions here. One is going after these kind of non-traditional media platforms, and then the other is building your own following, building a following on

16. 1:09:41 – 1:12:43

    Traditional press vs. newsletters, podcasts, and social media

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:09:41

       Twitter, for example. I know you work closely with the CEO of Box who's really good at this and basically doesn't need press. Elon is amazing at this, you know. Maybe that's why he bought Twitter. He has this huge platform to talk about all the stuff. So kind of the m- maybe in the first bucket, talking about when you're trying to decide should I go after traditional media, Box and, uh, Venture Beat and Axios and all these guys, versus I'm gonna go for newsletters like as an example, um, Ramp got a lot of benefit from Not Boring, that newsletter with Packy who wrote about them like constantly and loved it, and there's sponsored posts and organic posts. So I guess the question there is just how do you think about going after podcasts, newsletters, Twitter, your LinkedIn, you know, influencer-y, platform-y people, versus traditional press?

Episode duration: 1:33:54