Aaron Smith-Levin: Scientology | Lex Fridman Podcast #361

1. 0:00 – 1:21

   Introduction

   1. ASAaron Smith-Levin0:00

      If Scientology was just getting auditing when you wanted, about the subjects you wanted, and you could take it or leave it, that would be fine. It's, it's the fact that it's part and parcel to this entire organization and this entire experience that has, as a part of that experience, taking everything from you, demanding everything from you, controlling who you can speak with, con- controlling who you can have relationships with, who you have to erase from your life. This is where, and it's hard to, it's hard to place one pinpoint on "This is where Scientology goes wrong." It's really hard to do that, because the good parts of Scientology and the bad parts of Scientology are all just Scientology.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:48

      The following is a conversation with Aaron Smith-Levin, a former Scientologist, raised in Scientology, and have worked in our organization full-time for many years as a staff member and a Sea Org member, including the job of training Scientology auditors. Today, he educates the public about Scientology on his YouTube channel called Growing Up in Scientology. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Aaron Smith-Levin.

2. 1:21 – 5:19

   Thetans

   1. LFLex Fridman1:21

      Let's do a full overview of Scientology, its ideas, how it operates, how it wields its power and influence, and let's start at the very basics. What is Scientology?

   2. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:31

      Scientology is a belief system created by L. Ron Hubbard that does fundamentally believe that we are all immortal, spiritual beings called thetans, that we have native godlike potential, that there is nothing more powerful in the universe than a thetan. Like, so godlike is, you know, quite literal here. And that through various decisions thetans have made, they have fallen away from their native godlike power to, uh, fallen down to a state where most thetans aren't even aware that they are thetans, aren't even aware that they ever, um, have lived before or have these powers, and that thetans are now in a state where they're trapped in bodies, trapped here on Earth, uh, trapped in this prison of a physical universe, trapped on this prison of a planet, and that only Scientology can restore a thetan to its native state.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:32

      Are these multiple beings? Like is there one thetan inside of me that's trapped in this prison? Uh-

   4. ASAaron Smith-Levin2:38

      Well, the than would be you.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:40

      The than would be me?

   6. ASAaron Smith-Levin2:41

      The thetan is you.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:43

      But I'm presumably limited in some fundamental way. So this thetan that is me is, is limited. So there's like eight billion thetans on the planet?

   8. ASAaron Smith-Levin2:52

      There's one primary thetan animating each body. Later in Scientology, you learn there's actually like tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of like sick, unconscious, half-dead thetans stuck to you that are-

   9. LFLex Fridman3:07

      Oh.

   10. ASAaron Smith-Levin3:07

       ... now an additional cause of problems for you.

   11. LFLex Fridman3:10

       Sure.

   12. ASAaron Smith-Levin3:10

       But fundamentally, at the lower levels, the non-confidential levels, there's just one thetan per body.

   13. LFLex Fridman3:17

       I mean, it's an interesting idea. I just would like to kind of explore the philosophy of that. So there's a being that's all powerful, that's immortal, and its projection, its manifestation on this Earth is fundamentally limited, and you're trying to, uh, the process of Scientology is the process of, uh, letting go of those limitations. You know, that's an interesting idea. I mean, a lot of religions have this kind of idea that there's, uh, not just religions, but like, uh, we have the capacity as human beings to do, to achieve greatness in all kinds of ways.

   14. ASAaron Smith-Levin3:52

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman3:52

       And that that's the question we have with our cognitive abilities. We start with an embryo and build up and into this organism and like this world of opportunities before us. What are we capable of? And the idea that we're capable of almost anything is a really powerful one, and there's a lot of religions, there's a lot of philosophies, there's a lot of advice, self-help that kind of explore those ideas. And so it seems like with Scientology, this, the application of these religious philosophy means that there's, we're limited and we have to break through those limitations, and there's a process to break through those limitations.

   16. ASAaron Smith-Levin4:25

       That would be correct. So what can make it challenging to adequately and completely describe Scientology in the beginning is what Scientologists believe actually changes as they progress further into or further up in Scientology. So, um, the explanations that I've given it is pretty consistent with what you would get at the lowest levels.

   17. LFLex Fridman4:49

       Got it.

   18. ASAaron Smith-Levin4:49

       Right? You're a thetan, I'm a thetan, everyone's a thetan, and we have a reactive mind. L. Ron Hubbard would say the reactive mind is a collection of, uh, these recordings, mental recordings of any moments of pain and unconsciousness you've ever had in your life. It's like the subconscious mind. Uh, it's always recording in moments of pain and unconsciousness, and that these are called, uh, these recordings are called, L. Ron Hubbard called them engrams.

3. 5:19 – 17:22

   Dianetics

   1. ASAaron Smith-Levin5:19

      Now, when L. Ron Hubbard first wrote Dianetics in 1950, this was before Scientology came along a couple years later, right? So in 1950 when he wrote Dianetics, it wasn't a spiritual endeavor. It was supposed to be a mental health, a science of mental health. So as of that time, the earliest engram you could have was the incident of birth. Being born-

   2. LFLex Fridman5:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ASAaron Smith-Levin5:43

      ... was an engram. And, uh, technically in Dianetics, he said you could have prenatal engrams, like when you're still in the womb. But there was no concept of past lives as of 1950 version of Dianetics, right? And so the idea there was that...... uh, the reactive mind is essentially a stimulus response mechanism, uh, created through evolution millions of years ago to protect the individual from things that would harm them. In other words, things that would bring about pain and unconsciousness. So you have these recordings of things that hurt you-

   4. LFLex Fridman6:15

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ASAaron Smith-Levin6:16

      ... create a pain and unconsciousness, and in present time, these things will react upon you, in a way, to cause you to avoid similar things reacting upon you in a, in a subconscious, unconscious way.

   6. LFLex Fridman6:28

      So the reactive mind protects you from the trauma that is inside your subconscious mind.

   7. ASAaron Smith-Levin6:34

      Yes, and the idea is we've now, as human beings, evolved to a state where it no longer serves us beneficially. It only serves us negatively.

   8. LFLex Fridman6:43

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ASAaron Smith-Levin6:44

      This was Hubbard's theory, and he said, "So you can get rid of these engrams by, you know, basically recalling them and going over them again and again using Dianetics auditing therapy, and if you get back to the moment of birth and erase the earliest engram, all the other subsequent engrams on the chain would vanish."

   10. LFLex Fridman7:01

       Oh, nice. So there's a chain.

   11. ASAaron Smith-Levin7:03

       Earlier similar, earlier similar, earlier similar, earlier similar. Okay, so that gives you a pretty good understanding of how L. Ron Hubbard thought of the mind because that carries on, has applicability later on in Scientology.

   12. LFLex Fridman7:16

       I mean, that's a pretty powerful model of the mind. I mean, Freud had similar conceptions that a lot of our traumas are grounded in sort of, uh, poor formulation of sexuality or imperfect formulation of sexuality in early childhood or something like this, and then we're trying to figure out the puzzle, whatever we formed in early childhood.

   13. ASAaron Smith-Levin7:38

       Right.

   14. LFLex Fridman7:38

       I mean, it's similar, similar kind of-

   15. ASAaron Smith-Levin7:40

       It is similar. That's probably what Hubbard took it from. Um, in the early days of Dianetics, before he decided psychiatry was evil-

   16. LFLex Fridman7:47

       Yeah.

   17. ASAaron Smith-Levin7:47

       ... uh, he actually credited Sigmund Freud with some of the shoulders he was standing on-

   18. LFLex Fridman7:52

       Sure.

   19. ASAaron Smith-Levin7:52

       ... in writing Dianetics.

   20. LFLex Fridman7:54

       So s- the, so he still admired psychiatry at that time. So that's an-

   21. ASAaron Smith-Levin7:57

       Yes.

   22. LFLex Fridman7:57

       ... interesting moment of Dianetics. So what else? You mentioned Dianetics auditing was there too. So if we just, before Scientology, what, what are the ideas that formed what we know as Dianetics?

   23. ASAaron Smith-Levin8:09

       As I've just described them, that is the fundamental.

   24. LFLex Fridman8:11

       That is-

   25. ASAaron Smith-Levin8:11

       Like, that is pretty much the nuts and bolts of Dianetics.

   26. LFLex Fridman8:14

       Was it applied? Was it applied often?

   27. ASAaron Smith-Levin8:16

       Oh, yeah. No, that's what Dianetics, in the early days, was all about, was just auditing. Auditing is the process of the one-on-one counseling, recall a moment of pain and unconsciousness, run through the engram over and over and over again, find something earlier similar. That is Dianetics auditing. One of the main things that changed with Scientology is that birth or prenatal engrams were no longer the earliest engrams on the chain.

   28. LFLex Fridman8:35

       Yeah.

   29. ASAaron Smith-Levin8:35

       The idea is you have to get the earliest engram on the chain for the later ones to blow, which is erase.

   30. LFLex Fridman8:39

       Mm-hmm.
4. 17:22 – 27:58

   God

   1. LFLex Fridman17:22

      Um, so the, the public facing three fundamental truths of Scientology, maybe correct me if I'm wrong, uh, man is an immortal spiritual being, like we said with thetans. His experience extends well beyond a single lifetime, so infinite memory backwards. His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized. The capabilities are unlimited. Are-

   2. ASAaron Smith-Levin17:45

      Yeah, God, so that when I say godlike, I really just mean, you know, Thanos, like unlimited. Scientologists don't believe in a god, so when I say godlike, I just mean the most powerful entity, the creator, the, the prime mover unmoved, except we are all that. Uh, you know, a thetan in definition, uh, uh, in Scientology, a thetan has no position in space or time. A thetan does not actually exist in the physical universe. It might choose to locate itself in the physical universe, right, and then forget that it made that decision and then sort of get caught and trapped in the physical universe, but that once the thetan is, uh, restored to its native...... powers. Um, everything you see here in the physical universe is just a thetan playing a game. Like liter- we are in a simulation right now of some thetan. So like physics doesn't have to make sense when we're talking about it this way. Like technically, you're a thetan, I'm a thetan, we're here. But it could, this could also all be another thetan's game.

   3. LFLex Fridman18:40

      So thetans all the way down.

   4. ASAaron Smith-Levin18:42

      Yeah. It's just thetans everywhere, thetans, it all comes down to the thetan.

   5. LFLex Fridman18:46

      Is there an idea of a god? 'Cause I read there's a kinda, there is a sense of a supreme being.

   6. ASAaron Smith-Levin18:52

      (inhales deeply)

   7. LFLex Fridman18:52

      Is that basically the thetan that's at the core, at the bottom of it all?

   8. ASAaron Smith-Levin18:56

      Yes.

   9. LFLex Fridman18:57

      What, not per- not defined. Undefined.

   10. ASAaron Smith-Levin19:00

       Correct. Scientology has this concept of the dynamics. L. Ron Hubbard breaks life into eight different dynamics, and the a, uh, dynamic, meaning a thrust towards survival.

   11. LFLex Fridman19:09

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ASAaron Smith-Levin19:09

       So he would say, you know, "The first dynamic is you, yourself. Second dynamic is your family. Third dynamic is any other group that you're a part of other than your family. Fourth dynamic is all humankind. Uh, the fifth dynamic is plant and animal life, all non-human life. Uh, sixth dynamic is the physical world. Seventh dynamic is sort of like spirituality, collectively. Thetans. Us as thetans."

   13. LFLex Fridman19:30

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ASAaron Smith-Levin19:31

       "Uh, and the eighth dynamic," L. Ron Hubbard says, "Scientology doesn't deal with the eighth dynamic, but we recognize that people have this idea of a supreme being, and so Scientology says you can call the eighth dynamic the supreme being dynamic, but we call it infinity." Just the all-ness of everything without having to define it. And then they sort of do a little dance and they're like, "Scientology, the purpose of Scientology is to get you to the point where you have your own understandings or realizations about the nature of the eighth dynamic. We don't tell you what you have to believe about that." And technically speaking, that is true.

   15. LFLex Fridman20:05

       Yeah.

   16. ASAaron Smith-Levin20:05

       Technically speaking, that is true. There's no point in Scientology where they sit you down and say, "You're now required to revoke your belief in a supreme being." It's just that everything in Scientology is i- is inconsistent with a belief in the supreme being. You can still find Scientologists who, through cognitive dissonance, will tell you they believe in a supreme being. Mostly they're lying to you.

   17. LFLex Fridman20:23

       How's this inconsistent with a supreme being? 'Cause like thetans could be d-

   18. ASAaron Smith-Levin20:26

       Because thetans have created everything, not God.

   19. LFLex Fridman20:29

       Okay, so thetans created everything. The- they, they're also a creative force. They're not just the force that runs everything.

   20. ASAaron Smith-Levin20:34

       Right.

   21. LFLex Fridman20:35

       But can't those be just the fingertips of a god?

   22. ASAaron Smith-Levin20:38

       Sure. The only way you could reconcile a supreme being is if you say a single supreme being created all theta.

   23. LFLex Fridman20:49

       Yeah.

   24. ASAaron Smith-Levin20:50

       Like the spiritual big bang.

   25. LFLex Fridman20:51

       Yep.

   26. ASAaron Smith-Levin20:52

       But that's not what most people think when they s- when they talk about God. They're talking about a creator of...

   27. LFLex Fridman20:58

       The physical universe.

   28. ASAaron Smith-Levin20:59

       Yes.

   29. LFLex Fridman21:00

       So there's no theta.

   30. ASAaron Smith-Levin21:01

       Right. I mean, even as I've described Scientology so far, none of what I've said is something I even subject to ridicule. This is pretty common sense stuff, actually. I mean, if you believe in spirituality or spirits at all, there's nothing I've described so far that's crazy.
5. 27:58 – 32:08

   Sea Org

   1. ASAaron Smith-Levin27:58

   2. LFLex Fridman27:58

      We're gonna jump around.

   3. ASAaron Smith-Levin27:59

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman27:59

      Let's go, what is Sea Org? What is Sea Organization? What is this organization?

   5. ASAaron Smith-Levin28:02

      The Sea Organization is the most dedicated version, the most dedicated brand of Scientologists. So, there's three, like, echelons of Scientologists. There's public, who just live normal lives in the real world and they pay to do Scientology courses and auditing.

   6. LFLex Fridman28:17

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ASAaron Smith-Levin28:17

      Then there's staff members, who also live in the real world, uh, but work on two and a half year contracts or five year contracts at their local Scientology organization, and then once they finish their contract there, their debt is paid or whatever. And then there's the Sea Org members. These are the guys who sign the billion-year contracts.

   8. LFLex Fridman28:33

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ASAaron Smith-Levin28:34

      They don't have lives in the outside world. They don't own property. They live in Scientology-provided housing. They eat Scientolo- they eat in Scientology-run cafeterias. They-

   10. LFLex Fridman28:41

       Is there an actual contract that says a billion years?

   11. ASAaron Smith-Levin28:44

       It's symbolic, but yes.

   12. LFLex Fridman28:45

       Okay.

   13. ASAaron Smith-Levin28:46

       Like, no, it's not a legally enforceable contract. (laughs) They haven't succeeded in enforcing it in any, uh, sub- uh, subsequent lifetimes yet.

   14. LFLex Fridman28:54

       Marriage contracts should be like that.

   15. ASAaron Smith-Levin28:55

       (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman28:55

       A billion years. 'Cause then it'd make, not until death do us part, but a billion years-

   17. ASAaron Smith-Levin28:59

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman28:59

       ... it really makes it very concrete of what you're signing up for.

   19. ASAaron Smith-Levin29:02

       Yeah. Those are the billion-year guys. You hear a lot about the billion-year contract, the billion-year contract. That's the Sea Org. And, and, uh, all of Scientology management, international management, middle management, continental management, and even some lower level service orgs, are one, composed 100% of Sea Org members. You're not allowed to marry or date someone who's not in the Sea Org. Uh, you're also not allowed to have children.

   20. LFLex Fridman29:27

       With anybody outside of Sea Org, or in general, you're not allowed to have children?

   21. ASAaron Smith-Levin29:29

       Sea Org members are not allowed to have children unless they leave the Sea Org. If you, they're, you're expected to, uh, have an abortion and stay in the Sea Org, 'cause it's the greatest good for Scientology. If you accidentally get pregnant.

   22. LFLex Fridman29:40

       Interesting, 'cause it distracts from the focus of the work.

   23. ASAaron Smith-Levin29:42

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman29:43

       What about sexual relations?

   25. ASAaron Smith-Levin29:45

       Only once married, but that's why people get married after like three days. You know, like, "Hey you, you look-"

   26. LFLex Fridman29:50

       You, are you-

   27. ASAaron Smith-Levin29:50

       "... you look all right. Let's get married." (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman29:51

       Are you allowed to have divorce?

   29. ASAaron Smith-Levin29:53

       Yeah. You get divorced a lot in the Sea Org. Uh, I've known people who get married and divorced three times b- by, like, by the age of 25.

   30. LFLex Fridman29:59

       Oh, wow. Okay.
6. 32:08 – 52:21

   Auditing

   1. LFLex Fridman32:08

      So let's talk about the products of this business, auditing and courses. So what's auditing?

   2. ASAaron Smith-Levin32:13

      So auditing is, uh, so we described earlier Dianetics auditing. Scientology auditing is, um, very similar to that.

   3. LFLex Fridman32:19

      So at first glance, it, it looks like psychotherapy, a kind of therapy.

   4. ASAaron Smith-Levin32:24

      All Scientology auditing is going to look like that. It's one-on-one talk therapy. Uh, you're in a, a room by yourselves, no distraction, no noise.

   5. LFLex Fridman32:35

      One-on-one?

   6. ASAaron Smith-Levin32:36

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman32:37

      So like this?

   8. ASAaron Smith-Levin32:38

      Yeah. But, and in Scientology, they have what's called an e-meter. (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman32:42

      Right.

   10. ASAaron Smith-Levin32:42

       Almost all auditing employs the use of an e-meter.

   11. LFLex Fridman32:45

       What's an e-meter?

   12. ASAaron Smith-Levin32:46

       So an e-meter is a device that just measures the resistance to a small electrical flow.

   13. LFLex Fridman32:53

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ASAaron Smith-Levin32:53

       Except Scientologists believe that this e-meter can be used to simply direct the progress of an auditing session, to determine whether, uh, the auditing has reached a good, satisfactory conclusion.

   15. LFLex Fridman33:07

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:08

       Uh, all auditing sessions have to end on a satisfactory conclusion. Like, that's the job of the auditor. There's, you don't just, it's not like, "Sorry, the session sucked. See you next week." It's not like that. Every auditing session has to end, um, on a positive note. And if it doesn't, uh, there's corrections to be made. So ...

   17. LFLex Fridman33:27

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:27

       Um, the e-meter ...

   19. LFLex Fridman33:28

       What does it look like, visually? Like ...

   20. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:30

       Oh, you can pull it up. Pull up Mark VIII, e-meter Mark VIII.

   21. LFLex Fridman33:35

       So there's a few dials.

   22. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:36

       Yep.

   23. LFLex Fridman33:38

       There's, uh, basic information about time and duration, I would presume, and then a dial that just goes zero to something.

   24. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:45

       Okay, so let's say that the meter's in front of me, and you're the one holding the cans.

   25. LFLex Fridman33:49

       I'm holding the cans. So you're inter- you're doing the auditing of me?

   26. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:52

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman33:53

       Okay.

   28. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:53

       Okay.

   29. LFLex Fridman33:53

       I'm holding the cans. (laughs)

   30. ASAaron Smith-Levin33:54

       No, literally, in the beginning of an auditing session, when you're calibrating the sensiti- s- sensitivity of the e-meter, you do a, a can squeeze. So I go, "Squeeze the cans, please."
7. 52:21 – 1:02:45

   Control

   1. LFLex Fridman52:21

   2. ASAaron Smith-Levin52:21

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman52:21

      So what, what, uh, what are the aspects that just, that are often controlled about, about a person who's in Scientology, especially Sea Org?

   4. ASAaron Smith-Levin52:29

      Well, information control, access to the internet, access to any information critical of Scientology.

   5. LFLex Fridman52:35

      Is some internet access allowed?

   6. ASAaron Smith-Levin52:38

      Public Scientologist has no restrictions to their access to the internet. They're just not allowed to read anything critical of Scientology.

   7. LFLex Fridman52:48

      Oh. Okay, so they're self- they're supposed to self-control what they read or not. And what's the explanation? Is, is it always assumed that anything critical of Scientology is a lie?

   8. ASAaron Smith-Levin52:59

      Mm-hmm. They really push this thing that, uh, unless you've been in a Scientology organization yourself, or unless you've actually been a Scientologist, you couldn't possibly know the truth about Scientology. If you're only getting information from people who aren't members or former members, then you couldn't possibly be getting the correct information. Now, they, they don't realize the math there doesn't make sense.

   9. LFLex Fridman53:23

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ASAaron Smith-Levin53:24

       If you can find out the true information by becoming and being a Scientologist, then that means you can get the correct information from a former Scientologist because they traveled that path and they got the correct information.

   11. LFLex Fridman53:34

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ASAaron Smith-Levin53:35

       So they still create this un- well, they try to create this unfalsifiable loop, where unless you are personally doing it, you don't have correct information. And you go, "Well, what about the people who did personally do it, got the correct information, left, and are now sharing that with others?" "Well, no, those are lies." "Well, okay, so, so just anything you don't like is a lie, then?" And you go, "Yeah, pretty much. That's kinda how it, that's kinda how it works."

   13. LFLex Fridman53:58

       So what about the control of negative information on the internet?

   14. ASAaron Smith-Levin54:02

       Uh ...

   15. LFLex Fridman54:02

       What, like the actual operations? I, I, I, I've, you know, preparing ... I, I should admit, I don't know too much about Scientology, and I was doing a bunch of reading, and the Wikipedia page on Scientology, interestingly enough, is not that negative about Scientology. Um, so like it made me ask ... You know, you have to be a little bit careful how you consume stuff from Wikipedia. You have to consider, because money can buy things there, there's, there's certain special interests and so on. But like it made me wonder like, like with a lot of controversial topics, what is true, and where do I look? Uh, where do I go for truth? So like how much sort of deliberate action is there to control what is true on the internet by Scientology?

   16. ASAaron Smith-Levin54:43

       Well, these days, they've pretty much, I think, thrown in the towel, but-

   17. LFLex Fridman54:45

       They have.

   18. ASAaron Smith-Levin54:46

       ... the Scientology middle management was (laughs) editing Wikipedia so often from IP addresses that were traced back to the Scientology buildings that, uh, Wikipedia locked them out from a- any IP addresses associated with Scientology from being able to edit it. It's like ...... is Scientology was so infatuated with trying to control the information, and in the early days of the internet, they had a, a certain degree of success with that. They just, it's just hopeless these days.

   19. LFLex Fridman55:10

       It's the scale, the scale is not there.

   20. ASAaron Smith-Levin55:11

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman55:11

       But actually, I'm very surprised how, uh, bot farms, how effective they can be at a very small scale.

   22. ASAaron Smith-Levin55:17

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman55:17

       If you just pay 100 people to sp- spread narratives. Uh, but the, the, the, the bad stuff, the, the reason that's effective is you can kind of create conspiracy theories that create chaos and nobody knows what is true, that, bot farms can do. But actually really nicely control a narrative is hard.

   24. ASAaron Smith-Levin55:38

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LFLex Fridman55:39

       So to create chaos, it's easier to do. To c- to basically say, like, um, you know, do PR control is very hard. Yeah, so the, especially, uh, on the internet, especially when the critical eye is there.

   26. ASAaron Smith-Levin55:53

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman55:53

       The internet s- can smell bullshit, which is one of the really, really powerful thing about the internet.

   28. ASAaron Smith-Levin55:57

       And I gotta tell you, it- it's one of the reasons I do my YouTube channel. It's one of the reasons I, I decided to upload every day. I've uploaded every day for the last six months.

   29. LFLex Fridman56:04

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ASAaron Smith-Levin56:04

       I just wanted there to be a nonstop flow of information of any kind and any variety, as long as it's fair, and balanced, intelligent, interesting, that Scientologists who stumble upon the internet will go, "Oh, look. Someone's talking about my thing. Let's see what they got going on." And, and, "Oh, uh, I know this guy." The fact that Scientology crushes so much information, uh, before, before YouTube, before, like, I have the only, like, big Scientology channel, and that only got big in the last six months.
8. 1:02:45 – 1:11:52

   David Miscavige

   1. LFLex Fridman1:02:45

      Who is David Miscavige? Let's, let's even, like ... 'cause y- you said L. Ron Hubbard founded Scientology.

   2. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:02:51

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:02:53

      Let's go to the story of how we transition from that to David Miscavige.

   4. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:02:58

      The current leader of Scientology, uh, he was actually not selected by L. Ron Hubbard to take over, but ended up usurping power and taking over.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:03:05

      This sounds like Stalin and Trotsky and communism.

   6. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:03:07

      (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman1:03:08

      Similar story. It's the, it's the person, oftentimes in these situation, uh, it's not the natural s-successor to power.

   8. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:03:18

      Mm.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:03:18

      It's the one that takes power.

   10. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:03:20

       Right. I think the quote, sometime it gets attributed to David Miscavige, is, um, "Power, power is not given, it is assumed."

   11. LFLex Fridman1:03:28

       Yeah.

   12. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:03:28

       Something like that. The last six years of L. Ron Hubbard's life, he was off in a seclusion, essentially hiding from lawsuits. Now, by the time Hubbard went off into seclusion, Miscavige had sort of already risen up through the ranks of the Sea Organization. Now, Miscavige was, like, a teenager, either, like, 11, 12, 13, or something like that. Miscavige was not born into Scientology, but he was a young, a young boy when his father got into Scientology.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:03:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:03:52

       Okay? So, um, Miscavige did start working as a Sea Org member. So there's one organization that existed to essentially serve Hubbard directly.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:04:01

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:04:02

       And to represent his interests, and that was called the commodore. He was the commodore of the Sea Organization. The Commodore's Messengers Organization, we're gonna call it the CMO. Miscavige started working for the CMO, um, pretty early on in his Sea Org career. By the way, as did Mike Rinder.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:04:15

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:04:16

       Mini Mike. Okay? (laughs) And so, uh, he just became n-known as a, as a doer, like a, a guy who'll get it done. No excuses, no stops. You know, get it done. So he had made a name for himself in the CMO around the time, by the time Hubbard went off into seclusion. Now, when he went off into seclusion, he took two other CMO, or I'm gonna call them messengers, right? Commodore's messengers.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:04:41

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:04:41

       He took two other messengers with him, Pat and Annie Broker. Now, it has been said by people, Mike, Mike Rinder has told me, he goes, "The reason Pat and Annie went off with LRH isn't necessarily because he desperately wanted them to, but partly because we could afford to let them go. We didn't necessarily-"

   21. LFLex Fridman1:05:00

       Sure.

   22. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:05:00

       "... need them."

   23. LFLex Fridman1:05:00

       Sure.

   24. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:05:00

       Okay. And between the two of them, Annie was the one who was, like, a really compassionate person, intelligent person, caring person.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:05:08

       Was there a possible trajectory of this world where she was the one that took over?

   26. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:05:12

       Yes. In fact, uh, Pat and Annie Broker were the two people that were supposed to take over.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:05:18

       Mm-hmm.

   28. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:05:18

       Okay? But because Pat and Annie were with Hubbard in seclusion, Miscavige basically had the complete run of the operation without any oversight from Hubbard. The only way any information would get from Scientology world to Hubbard-

   29. LFLex Fridman1:05:36

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:05:36

       ... is Miscavige and Pat Broker would meet at a confidential location-
9. 1:11:52 – 1:27:46

   Xenu

   1. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:11:52

      thetan story.

   2. LFLex Fridman1:11:52

      Can you describe Xenu, please?

   3. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:11:54

      We spoke earlier about how, at the lower, non-confidential levels of Scientology's bridge, Hubbard is saying that, "What's wrong with you is your reactive mind."

   4. LFLex Fridman1:12:01

      Yes.

   5. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:12:01

      Okay. Well, in Scientology, once you've gotten rid of your reactive mind, that is what's called the state of clear.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:12:08

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:12:08

      Okay, so after you finish state of clear, the next thing on the bridge is the OT levels.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:12:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:12:12

      Well, if you've already gotten rid of your reactive mind, what the heck are you supposed to do now? Well, now L. Ron Hubbard says, "Okay, first, what was wrong with you was just your reactive mind, but now, the next thing you have to resolve, the next thing that's wrong with you, is you actually have tens of thousands of s- of thetans stuck to your body, and they all have their own reactive minds."

   10. LFLex Fridman1:12:33

       Oh, wow.

   11. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:12:34

       You have to audit the thetans.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:12:39

       How do you audit the thetans? Is, are these like different shades of your inner mind, and you just have to try to access them somehow?

   13. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:12:47

       You use the E-meter, just like we spoke about, except now, you've got a divider that separates the cans so they don't short circuit, and you hold both cans in one hand.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:12:55

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:12:56

       And you have the E-meter in front of you, so now you're auditing yourself. You're telepathically talking to the thetans that are stuck to you. You are thinking the commands instead of saying them out loud, and you sort of do drills where you practice looking for E-meter reads at the instant you have a thought.... you're telepathically auditing spirits that L. Ron Hubbard says are stuck to your body.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:13:21

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:13:22

       Does this sound like a recipe for a mental breakdown?

   18. LFLex Fridman1:13:24

       Or a heck of a mental journey, wherever that leads. It's, it could lead anywhere. It, it probably lead to a very bad place, right?

   19. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:13:32

       Very often does. And you combine that with the fact that Scientology is against any forms of mental help or health outside of Scientology, and you have a recipe for disaster. Now, you might go, "Where did all these spirits come from that are stuck to your body?" This is where Xenu comes into play.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:13:49

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:13:49

       So Hubbard says that 75 million years ago, Xenu, uh, was basically, um, a dictator at, uh, the Galactic Confederation is like 70-something or 80-something planets somewhere in the Milky Way.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:14:02

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:14:02

       And, uh, Xenu was like, uh, a dictator, an overlord, for either one of these planets or the whole system, and they had a population problem. And Xenu was like, "We need to get rid of, like, half the people. So we called them all in for tax audits..." L. Ron Hubbard didn't like the IRS, so of course, the story has to do with tax audits. 'Kay. Called them all in for tax audits. Said, "Psyche, bitches!" Froze them in glycol, loaded them up on space planes, flew them to Earth. Remember, the story has to be Earth because the story is what's wrong with us. Flew them to Earth, dropped them in volcanoes, blew them up with hydrogen bombs, and then captured them with, like, spirit magnets. I'm making up words 'cause, okay.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:14:43

       Yeah.

   25. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:14:43

       Um, and these disembodied spirits of these people that got blown up have just been blowing in the wind here on Earth, and they attach themselves to things, and they can be in the environment, and they stick to bodies and everything. And so, and they all have reactive minds.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:14:59

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:14:59

       So at Scientology's upper levels, if you get sick or you have cancer or there's something wrong with you, Scientology will say, "That's one of your body things. You need to get some auditing to fix the body thing."

   28. LFLex Fridman1:15:10

       So this story, uh, you do it with a kinda, bit of a chuckle, but when done seriously... So it's just told in a serious way, like, to, like... Or written down-

   29. ASAaron Smith-Levin1:15:22

       It's written down.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:15:22

       ... and you, and you read it.

Episode duration: 2:13:06