Lex Fridman PodcastAbbas Amanat: Iran Protests, Mahsa Amini, History, CIA & Nuclear Weapons | Lex Fridman Podcast #334
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,131 words- 0:00 – 0:58
Introduction
- AAAbbas Amanat
This is not a nice, Islamic, fatherly regime. Clear signs of fascism. Clear signs of the state control and pay any price to stay in power.
- LFLex Fridman
So, even violence?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Extreme violence.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Abbas Amanat, a historian at Yale University specializing in the modern history of Iran. My love and my heart goes out to the Iranian people in their current struggle for freedom. I hope that this conversation helps folks who listen understand the nature and the importance of this struggle. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description and now, dear friends, here's Abbas Amanat.
- 0:58 – 19:15
Mahsa Amini protests in Iran
- LFLex Fridman
Let's start with the current situation in Iran. On September 16th, protests broke out in Tehran and quickly spread over the death of a 22-year-old Mahsa Amini. Eyewitnesses saw her beaten to death by the morality police. This is a heavy topic, but it's a really important topic. What... Can you explain what happened?
- AAAbbas Amanat
The protests are now in their, uh, sixth week. The death of that young woman occurred, who was visiting Tehran as a tourist, sparked, uh, something very deep, uh, that particularly concerned the younger generations. That is what you would call the equivalent of the Z generation in this country.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yes.
- AAAbbas Amanat
They call themselves دحه هشتدي in Persian, because Iran follows the solar calendar of its own. It's an ancient solar calendar. And this... The, the, the time that they were born, they were in the 1380s. That's what they call themselves, هشتدي.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
80s, هشتده, for the '80s. And, uh, the... Well, the circumstances that surrounds the, uh, unfortunate death of this young, beautiful, uh, Kurdish woman, uh, is, uh, really tragic. Uh, she was arrested by the, what is referred to as the morality police, morality patrol, called گشت ارشاد, a guidance police, that is. Presumably, there were two women fully clad that is officers serving on that force, and two men. And, mm, nobody exactly knows what had happened. She had been beaten up, and apparently there was no, uh, uh, uh, sign of any wrongdoing on her side. She was fully covered. Uh, it seems that, uh, uh, there was some altercation in the process and, uh, the, the outcome was that she was unconscious. Uh, not necessarily when she was arrested, but in the course of the detention when they take them to a center, presumably to re-educate them.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
And, um, and she apparently collapsed, and maybe my sense is that she must have had some kind of a problem because of the skull being broken or something had happened, and she died in the hospital the next day. And that, through the social media, was widely spread throughout Iran and almost the next day, surprisingly, you could see this outburst of sympathy for her. People are in the streets, uh, weeping because she was seen as such an innocent young woman, 22 years old. And the family, the mother and the father, also mourning for her. Uh, and being a Kurd visiting Tehran, uh, this all added up to really turn her into some kind of a martyr of this cause, and that's what it is. And her, uh, picture, um, uh, uh, graphics that were artistically produced based on her portrait has now dominates basically as the symbol of this protest movement, and the protest movement goes on. Everybody was thinking, or at least the authorities were thinking, that it's going to die out in a matter of a few days. But it became more, uh, intense first in the streets of Tehran by young women, mostly probably between I would say 17, 18, teenagers to 22, 23 or thereabout, and then to university campuses all around the country, and then even to high schools. And that also made it a very remarkable protest movement because first of all it involves the youth and not necessarily the older generations. You see them around, but not as many. Also, you see men and women together, young, uh, uh, girls and boys, and, uh, um, they are adamant, they are desperate in a sense of the tone of their protests, and they are extremely courageous because they stand against the, uh, security forces that were immediately, uh, were sent after to the streets, so... And in full gear, that is.
- LFLex Fridman
So, what are the, the currents of pain, emotion...
... um, what is this turmoil that rose to the surface that resulted in these big protests? What are the different feelings, ideas that came to the surface here-
- AAAbbas Amanat
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... that resulted in such quick scaling of this protest?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Well, if you listen to the, uh, main slogan, which is the message of this movement, it's called "Women, Life, Freedom," "Zan, Zendagi, Azadi," which is a translation of actually the Kurdish equivalent, which is close to Persian being a Indo-European language. And it's apparently initiated, uh, first in the Syrian Kurdistan where they were fighting against the Islamic Daesh forces, uh, because they were attacking the, uh, Yazidis there, and the women were being enslaved. But the message, as it moved... Well, historians are interested in this kind of thing, trends. So it has moved to Kurdistan, and from Kurdistan, now being the message of this movement reflects pretty much, uh, sums up what this movement is all about. Women in the forefront because of all the, one might say, discriminations, the treatment, the humiliation that this younger generation feels. Well, not only the younger generations, but most of the Iranian secular middle classes since 1979 basically-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... for the, for the past 43 years. And, uh, they would think that, uh, uh, these all basically symbolized or, uh, represented by the wearing, the mandatory wearing of the hijab.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Which is at the core of this protest. You see the young women, and if you look at many of these clips that comes through in the past six weeks, women in streets take off their mandatory, uh, scarves, which is a young shawl, or some kind of a head covering. That's all. And, uh, they throw it into the, uh, uh, bonfire in the middle of the street, and they dance around it-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... and slogans. So there is a sense of complete rejection of what this regime for 42 years, 43 years have been imposing on women. It's not, as it's sometimes been portrayed, a movement against hijab, uh, through and through, but it's... basically says, you know, there has to be a choice for those who want to wear hijab and those who want to remain without hijab.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, the hijab is a symbol of something much deeper.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Much deeper. And actually before we get into that, it's interesting to note that in many of these demonstrations we see in the university campuses or in the streets, you see women with hijab, uh, young women with hijab, or next to those who have removed their hijab, and they're together basically protesting. That's the most interesting feature of this, uh, of these demonstrations. And then men and women together against the segregation that the regime has imposed upon them for all these years. Now, in terms of what it represents, as I pointed out, one is the question of the whole series of, one might say, civil and legal, uh, discriminations against women. You are considered as a kind of a second-class citizen. You depend on your man. There's a kind of a patriarchy-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... that has been institutionalized in the Islamic republic in a very profound fashion. And that means that, uh, probably y- i- in matters of divorce, uh, uh, marriage and divorce, in matters of custody of your children, in matter of inheritance, in matter of, uh, freedom of movement, you depend on your husband, your father, your brother, a male member of your, uh, family. Your child even, your, your son, could, could be the case. And because of that, obviously a younger generation who is so well-informed through social media, knows about the world as much as an American does, American kid does. Uh, probably sometimes more.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
They're very, very curious. It's from what I hear or from them sometimes that I met a few of them outside Iran. You'll see that how they... this, uh, uh, new generation is completely different from what the Islamic republic wanted to create in its social engineering.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
It's basically the failure of 43 years of the Islamic republic's act of imposition of a certain so-called Islamic values on m- m- on women. Then it's matter of education. You would see that there is segregation in the schools. Uh, uh, one of the issues that now, right now, is at the heart of these demonstrations is that self-services, uh, in many of the campuses of Iranian universities are segregated- male and female, two different rooms, two different halls. Now they are breaking through the walls...
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AAAbbas Amanat
... virtually everywhere and sit together in order to, uh, basically, uh, resist, uh, the authorities who wants to impose segregation.... a- in matters of, uh, a- appearance in the public. Of course, m- it, uh, it may seem to us as a kind of trivial and secondary, but appearance is important. Clothing is important. How you would imagine yourself is important. They don't want to be seen in the way that the authorities would like to impose upon them-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- 19:15 – 36:54
Propaganda
- AAAbbas Amanat
And the regime was thinking that, "Well, these are kids. Uh, they're going to go away." And then, of course, they're completely conspiratorial in their thinking.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
They constantly think that these are all the, uh, instigations and provocations of foreign powers. These are the great Satan, the United States, this is Israel, or these are the ch- A- actually, the supreme leader says in so many words, h- his only response so far that he had in the pas- past six weeks with regard to this demonstrations is that, "These are the children of the SAVAK." SAVAK being the security forces of the Shah's time. That's 43 years later. He claims that the children, 17, 16, 17 years, 20 years old, kids in the street are the grandchildren or children of some imaginary survival of the Shah's security forces.
- LFLex Fridman
So there's, uh, the idea is that these protests are internal, and external saboteurs, so people trying to sabotage the government-
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... and-
- AAAbbas Amanat
And they are misled.
- LFLex Fridman
Misled.
- AAAbbas Amanat
That's as far as they can go.
- LFLex Fridman
And then there's the great Satan, United States, and other places, are, uh, controlling sort of, uh, either controlling the narrative, feeding propaganda, or literally, uh, sending people to-
- AAAbbas Amanat
I don't think that they have-
- LFLex Fridman
... instigate.
- AAAbbas Amanat
I don't think even they have that kind of imagination, precise to say what you have said.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
That they would say that they are controlling the narrative. They basically say, "No, these are agents-"
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... of, of the foreign powers. And their families are all sold out, and they are basically lost their loyalties to the great Islamic Republic. And, uh, therefore, uh, th- they can be treated so brutally. They can be suppressed so brutally, which I haven't actually said what they are doing, because I thought perhaps first we should talk about who these kids are in the streets before we move on in the, about the response of the government. But, uh, one major factor which seems to add to the anxiety of... Well, uh, the regime is extremely anxious now-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... because they're in a position... This shows that they don't have... The lack of confidence, in a sense, that they would see them, uh, reacting in a very forceful way. Because basically they don't seem to have that kind of a confidence to allow this, uh, uh, th- this message or the movement to air, to be aired.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
But the one element which corresponds to that is that there is a, uh, expatriate population of Iranians worldwide. There are probably now, according to some estimates, close to four million, even more Iranians abroad. And they're all over the world, from Australia and New Zealand, Japan, Western Europe, uh, uh, Turkey, and United States and Canada.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
So just to give you one example, last, uh, uh, last f- uh, Saturday, there was a mass demonstrations in Berlin-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... by the Iranians from Germany and all, all over Europe, Western Europe. And it was at least, I think probably the conservative estimate was about 100,000. So 100,000 Iranians showed up-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... in Berlin demonstrating against the treatment of the, uh, uh, women in Iran or the movement in Iran. The government thinks obviously this must have been some instigation by foreign powers, and they want to destroy the Islamic Republic. And not only that, but their propaganda is kind of ridiculous. Because, uh, I listened actually to how they portrayed it in the newspapers. I listened to the, uh, Iranian news that is officially controlled, government-controlled news. And, and in the papers, the, the, um, much of the papers that are in the control of the government, uh, one of them, or actually, uh, the, the m- major news program portrayed the demonstrations that 10,000 people showed up in Berlin and protested against the rising prices or rising rates for gas and oil-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... in Germany.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- 36:54 – 53:43
Iranian culture
- AAAbbas Amanat
- LFLex Fridman
And we should say that most of Iran-
- AAAbbas Amanat
Is Shi'i.
- LFLex Fridman
... is Shi'i, and those are, that's a branch of Islam.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Shi'ism, yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Let's maybe just briefly linger Shi'ism and, and Sunni. What-
- AAAbbas Amanat
What?
- LFLex Fridman
Ju- just, w- let's not get into it.
- AAAbbas Amanat
(laughs) Yeah, I don't want to.
- LFLex Fridman
Let's do a, let's do a, let's do a one sentence summary, uh, and that maybe which, which is what most of Iran is.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Majority of the population of the Muslim world are Sunnis.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
That are, these are mainstream, if you like to call that. Actually, Sunnah means that kind of a mainstream.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you actually linger on the, the Sunni, Sunnah, Shi- Shi'a?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Shi'a means a party, means those that belongs to a party of Ali, which was, goes back to the early Islamic history of seventh century.
- LFLex Fridman
I, um, I mean, I'm almost lingering to the silly notion of pronunciation and stuff like that. So, A-
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yeah. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
A, A me- A means par- Like, what, (laughs) what does the extra I at the end do?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yeah. Shi'i means belonging to the Shi'i community.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Shi'a means a person of Shi'a.
- LFLex Fridman
That belongs to that community.
- AAAbbas Amanat
If you say, "Are you a Shi'a?" "Yes, I am a Shi'a."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. And Shi'i is the community.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Is the community. And in English, when it was Anglicized, it becomes Shiite. So if you say Shiite in today-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... it's perfectly acceptable. And of course, I myself in my writings, I always, um, switch between one and the other. One of my books is always Shiite. The other book is always Shi'i.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- AAAbbas Amanat
(laughs) And that hasn't been settled. But the Shi'i population is the smaller compared to the Sunni population in the world.
- LFLex Fridman
In the world?
- 53:43 – 1:15:11
Violent suppression of protests
- LFLex Fridman
what, what were the uses of violence to suppress protests?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Well, yes. It was actually quite remarkable to see that from the first or the second day of the protest, you see out in the streets this riot police, okay? Which comes out in large numbers.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Uh, fully geared up. Their appearance are rather terrifying, like any other riot police. Probably more than any other riot police. They are violent, and they, uh, stand in the streets when the stu- students are demonstrating, even in smaller number. 'Cause before I go to that, I should point this point, this out to, uh, you as well, that, uh, that these demonstrations are not large ones in one place. You see, you don't see 100,000 people in, in one place. But you see in every neighborhood, couple of thousand of kids are-... uh, demonstrating.
- LFLex Fridman
All over Iran?
- AAAbbas Amanat
All over Iran.
- LFLex Fridman
N- now all over the world in different parts?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes, yes, yes. Actually, during the demonstrations th- three weeks ago, they've, as I said, they had people in, um, Sydney, Australia, New Zealand, Tokyo, all over the world.
- LFLex Fridman
All protesting high gas prices. It's funny.
- AAAbbas Amanat
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Everywhere.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Everywhere. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AAAbbas Amanat
To the extent that they could be ignored-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. (laughs)
- AAAbbas Amanat
... nothing, but if they could not be ignored-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... and it's actually s- quite remarkable that this is very embarrassing to them.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
But somehow, they think that this propaganda machine of them is working.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, so you think they don't have a good even sense... I mean, it's just so there's an incompetence within the propaganda machine?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes, it is.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
There's an incompetence across the board.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
I mean, despite all of this massive government a- administration, or whatever you would call it, all these various components of it, there is a sense of, there is a sense of inefficiency and incompetence that is associated with... in every action that you see, even in their suppression of this street movement.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Uh, but i- in answer to that question, you would see that their, this, uh, uh, riot police, uh, vary, uh, m- uh, it's quite obvious that they were trained for the purpose, so this, their appearance, everything. These are not just regular army forces or soldiers, s- conscripts. They are professional forces. And they come not only i- on foot, uh, l- uh, number, but they come on motorbikes. So there are, you would see it, any of these demonstrations, there are 10, 12, 15, 20 motorbikes with two passengers, one in front riding, the one in the back fully equipped with a baton, with paint guns, with pellet guns, and with bullets. Uh, so they are very fully, uh, equipped, and they're terrifying. They go through the demonstrations and hit and beat people-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... uh, and then the, the arrests. And then you see behind the first line of these riot police, you would see all this latest models of this, uh, special, uh, uh, armored trucks for moving through the demonstrations, and, uh, arresting people, throwing them into this, and then behind that, water, uh, water cannons, you see? And I was looking at that was like, "Okay, this is Tehran, probably they have this." But then you look at the smallest cities, they still have the same thing. So all over the country, one thing that they had managed to produce extensively, irrespective of the fact that whether they are effective or not, but we see them everywhere. So this just shows that how afraid this regime is.
- 1:15:11 – 1:32:54
Islamic Revolution
- LFLex Fridman
What happened in 1979 in Iran?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Well, in 1979, there was a revolution that eventually came to be known as the Islamic Revolution, and even up to this day, many of the observers or those who have strong views would not like to refer to it as the Islamic Revolution or even a revolution. The, the, because the nature of it in the earlier stages of it started really probably around 1977, it took two years, was much more, uh, all embracing. It was not Islamic in a particular fashion or at all in a sense. It started with a kind of a very liberal democrat, um, agenda which required, uh, which demanded mostly by people who were the veterans of the older generations of Iranian liberal nationalists that were left out in the Pahlavi period, is the period of the Shah, uh, became increasingly, um, authoritarian, increasingly suppressive, and, uh, therefore basically leaving no space or no political space open for any kind of a give and take, any kind of a conversation or participation.
- LFLex Fridman
That was in the '70s?
- AAAbbas Amanat
'70s, '70s, particularly in the '70s.
- LFLex Fridman
Can we actually even like just do a, a whirlwind review from 1906 to 1979?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes. Okay, sure. In 1906, there was a period ac- actually as you might know, the first decade or the... so of, uh, of the 20th century witnessed numerous what referred to as constitutional revolutions, including Russia in 1905, the first revolution, including the Chinese Revolution in 19... Constitution Revolution in 1910, the Young Turks Revolution in 1908, and the Iranian Revolution in 1906.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you understand why the synchronicity of all of it? Why in so many different places, very different cultures-
- AAAbbas Amanat
'Cause-
- LFLex Fridman
... very different governments-
- AAAbbas Amanat
Very different cultures, but all of them in a sense were coming out of, um, the, regimes that became, uh, uh, uh, progressively powerful-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... without having any kind of a legal system that would protect the individual vis-a-vis the state. So the idea of law and the constitution according to which there should be a certain protection, a certain civil society, became very common.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, but I wonder where that... 'cause that's been that way for, for a very-
- AAAbbas Amanat
For very long time.
- LFLex Fridman
... long time.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
And so I wonder, you know, it's, it's funny, (laughs) certain ideas just their time comes.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Exactly. It's like 1848 when you would see that there's a whole range of revolutions-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... a- across Europe.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
Uh, or you would see for instance the, uh, Arab Spring, you see all these revolutions in the Arab world which unfortunately nearly all of them failed. So yes, these are very contagious ideas that moves across frontiers from one culture to another, and I presume we can add to that there are two elements with, uh, which one can say there is, was a greater communication, there is a greater sense of a world economy.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
And the turn of the century witnessed, the first decade of the century witnessed a period of, uh, volatility, particularly in, uh, in currency. So many of the countries of the world, particularly non-west-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... uh, suffered-... in, and, uh, eh, eh, particularly the businesses suffered. And, uh, not surprisingly, the business class were in the forefront of many of these constitutional movements requiring the state to give the, uh, kind of, uh, created the right kind of institutions to listen to their voices, to their concerns, and the creation of a democratic system, parliamentary and system with which there would be representation, popular representation, proper elections, and so forth, and constitutions. And this very much is a kind of a, uh, French idea of the constitution going back all the way perhaps to 1789 revolution, uh, Montesquieu-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... all these kind of philosophe, uh, were greatly appreciated, particularly the French system.
- LFLex Fridman
So what were the ideas in the 1906 Iranian Constitution?
- AAAbbas Amanat
They ... Precisely the same. They were demanding a creation of a legal system with division of power between the three executive, legislative, and the judiciary-
- 1:32:54 – 1:49:10
CIA in Iran
- AAAbbas Amanat
uh, Iran was going through a period of demanding nationalization of its oil resources. That's a very important episode with Mosaddegh, whom you might have heard about his name. Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh was the prime minister and the national charismatic leader from 1951 to 1953. Prior to that, he was a famous parliamentarian. But this period, he was the prime minister of Iran. And he nationalized the Iranian oil industry, and the British didn't like it at all. And eventually resulted in a famous coup, which at least partly was supported, uh, by the funding and by the moral support of the British and the Americans, particularly by the Americans. It was always, uh, seen as one of the earliest and the most successful CIA operations during the Cold War.
- LFLex Fridman
So CIA had something to do with it?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes, of course. That's one of the earliest operations of the CIA.
- LFLex Fridman
Wait a minute. What, what was ... (laughs) Yes, of course. What was the CIA, what was the CIA doing in-
- AAAbbas Amanat
CIA, this is the time at the post-war era.
- LFLex Fridman
In the '50s.
- AAAbbas Amanat
In the '50s, '40s, and the '50s.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
The British Empire, which was really the major superpower of the region after the collapse of the Tsarist empire, gradually took the second seat to the Americans who were the newcomers, and the great powers, and the victors of the Second World War. And Americans viewed Iran as an important, uh, uh, as an important, uh, country since it has the largest, uh, common borders with the Soviet Union.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
And it was, uh, in the south was the Persian Gulf, which at the time was the greatest s- uh, uh, uh, supplier of, uh, oil to the outside world. Uh, and therefore the Americans, uh, had a particular interest in Iran. And in the earlier stages, their interest was in the interest of the Iranian government, because they wanted to get rid of both, uh, the Soviet Union, which ma- which made a return in the post-war era, and of course the British that were gradually withdrawing from Iran. But they, they had a full control over the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. They changed the name to Anglo-Iranian Oil Company when the name of the country officially changed from Persia to Iran-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... uh, in the West. Um, the name of the company changed. And they got into a huge dispute with the Mosaddegh government that eventually led to the coup of 1953, which eventually created a very, uh, very distrustful memory in the minds of many of the Iranian nationalists, that this was the betrayal of the great powers, the British and Americans. Yes, CIA played a part, because CIA feared, contrary to the British, that they were afraid of their own oil in Iran. The CIA was afraid of the, uh, Soviet penetration in, uh, in the south, and particularly because there was a very powerful political, uh, uh, very powerful communist party in Iran, the Tudeh Party of Iran. So they gradually shifted between the Truman administration and our Eisenhower administration. These are early days of the CIA.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
And then they actually did participate, uh, to s- send their agents. There's a long story to that. And, uh, it eventually resulted in a successful coup that removed Mosaddegh from power.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the United States' interest here? Why are they using CIA? Are they trying to make sure there's not too much centralization of power in this region?
- AAAbbas Amanat
No. They were afraid of the fact that the, uh, that, of the Soviet Union and during-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... the Cold War. That was their concern, the only concern.
- LFLex Fridman
So like they, they actually almost want to protect Iran and its own sovereign processes from-
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... influence of the Soviets?
- AAAbbas Amanat
Yes. 'Cause they were afraid of the fact...... if Iran, or at least this is part of the, um, I'm simplifying a very complex picture. But the, but, but the Americans basically were thinking that if Iran is going to be lost to Soviet influence, then eventually basically the, all the oil resources in the Persian Gulf are going to be threatened.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AAAbbas Amanat
And if, and this would basically is the national security of the United States and all of the Western allies, European allies. So in a sense, this was the long arm of the CIA to try to, to try to make sure that that's not going to happen. And then of course, they were persuaded by the British, because British were the old hand, which were in Iran since the beginning of the 19th century. They always had relations with Iran and so forth. So they gradually replaced-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AAAbbas Amanat
... uh, the, and, uh, of course I don't want to give them this kind of a satanic view that American was a bad influence because they had also some very good influences in Iran. But this particular episode somehow shed a dark light on the American presence and was used and abused time and again, particularly the revolution in 1979, which was this great Satan idea that Khomeini created, basically was based on the fact his 1953, "You were responsible for the downfall of a national government in Iran." Which as a matter of fact, he had no respect for it. Khomeini had no respect for the national, secular national li- liberals, including Mo- Mohammad Mosaddegh. But he was using it as a, as a rhetorical tool for his own purposes. But what happened is that after 1953... We see again the rise of authoritarian Mohammad Reza Shah's power.
- LFLex Fridman
And that he is, that's the Shah?
- AAAbbas Amanat
That's the Shah that we know as Shah. This is son of Reza Shah.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, technically, what, what is Shah? Is it-
Episode duration: 3:05:57
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