Lex Fridman PodcastAlex Garland: Ex Machina, Devs, Annihilation, and the Poetry of Science | Lex Fridman Podcast #77
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 24,219 words- 0:00 – 3:42
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Alex Garland, writer and director of many imaginative and philosophical films. From the dreamlike exploration of human self-destruction in the movie Annihilation, to the deep questions of consciousness and intelligence raised in the movie Ex Machina, which to me, is one of the greatest movies on artificial intelligence ever made. I'm releasing this podcast to coincide with the release of his new series called Devs that will premiere this Thursday, March 5th on Hulu, as part of FX on Hulu. It explores many of the themes this very podcast is about, from quantum mechanics, to artificial life, to simulation, to the modern nature of power in the tech world. I got a chance to watch a preview and loved it. The acting is great. Nick Offerman, especially, is incredible in it. The cinematography is beautiful, and the philosophical and scientific ideas explored are profound. And for me, as an engineer and scientist, were just fun to see brought to life. For example, if you watch the trailer for the series carefully, you'll see there's a programmer with a Russian accent looking at a screen with Python-like code on it that appears to be using a library that interfaces with a quantum computer. This attention to technical detail on several levels is impressive, and one of the reasons I'm a big fan of how Alex weaves science and philosophy together in his work. Meeting Alex, for me, was unlikely, but it was life-changing in ways I may only be able to articulate in a few years. Just as meeting Spot Minnie of Boston Dynamics for the first time planted a seed of an idea in my mind, so did meeting Alex Garland. He's humble, curious, intelligent, and to me, an inspiration. Plus, he's just really a fun person to talk with about the biggest possible questions in our universe. This is the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcast, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter, @lexfridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. As usual, I'll do one or two minutes of ads now, and never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation. I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. When you get it, use code LEXPODCAST. Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as one dollar. Since Cash App allows you to buy Bitcoin, let me mention that cryptocurrency in the context of the history of money is fascinating. I recommend A Cent of Money as a great book on this history. Debits and credits on ledgers started 30,000 years ago. The US dollar was created about 200 years ago. And Bitcoin, the first decentralized cryptocurrency, was released just over 10 years ago. So given that history, cryptocurrency is still very much in its early days of development, but it still is aiming to, and just might, redefine the nature of money. So again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play, and use code LEXPODCAST, you'll get ten dollars, and Cash App will also donate ten dollars to FIRST, one of my favorite organizations that is helping advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world. And now, here's my conversation with Alex Garland.
- 3:42 – 7:15
Are we living in a dream?
- LFLex Fridman
You described the world inside the shimmer in the movie Annihilation as dreamlike, in that it's internally consistent but detached from reality. That leads me to ask, do you think... A philosophical question, I apologize. Do you think we might be living in a dream or in a simulation, like the kind that the shimmer creates? We human beings here today.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. I want to sort of separate that out into two things. Yes, I think we're living in a dream of sorts. No, I don't think we're living in a simulation. I think we're living on a planet with a very thin layer of atmosphere, and the planet is in a very large space, and the space is full of other planets and stars and quasars and stuff like that. And I don't think, I don't think those physical objects, I don't think the matter in that universe is simulated. I think it's there. We are definitely, or... There's a whole problem with saying definitely, but in my opinion-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- AGAlex Garland
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- AGAlex Garland
I'll just go back to that. We, we... I think it seems very likely we're living in a dream state. I'm pretty sure we are, and I think that's just to do with the nature of how we experience the world. We experience it in a subjective way, uh, and the thing I've learned most as I've got older, in some respects, is the degree to which reality is counterintuitive, and that the things that are presented to us as objective turn out not to be objective. And quantum mechanics is full of that kind of thing, but actually just day-to-day life is full of that kind of thing as well. So, so my understanding of the way, the way the brain works is you get some information hit your optic nerve and then your brain makes its best guess about what it's seeing or what it's saying it's seeing. It may or may not be an accurate best guess. It might be an inaccurate best guess, and that gap, the best guess gap, means that we are essentially living in a subjective state, which means that we're in a dream state. So, and I think you could enlarge on the dream state in all sorts of ways but... So yes, dream state, no, simulation would be where I'd come down.
- LFLex Fridman
So going further, deeper into that direction, you've also described that world as psychedelia.So on that topic, I'm curious about that world. On the topic of psychedelic drugs, do you see those kinds of chemicals that modify our perception as, uh, a distortion of our perception of reality or a window into another reality?
- AGAlex Garland
No. I think what I'd be saying is that we live in a distorted reality and then those kinds of drugs give us a different kind of distorted-
- LFLex Fridman
Different perspective.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. Exactly. They just give an alternate distortion. And I think that- that what they really do is they give, they give a distorted perception which is a little bit more allied to, uh, daydreams, um, or unconscious interests. So if for some reason you're feeling unconsciously anxious at that moment and you take a psychedelic drug, you will have a, a more pronounced unpleasant experience. And if you're feeling very calm or- or happy, you might have a good time. But, um, but yeah. So- so if I'm saying we're starting from a premise, our starting point is or we're already in the slightly psychedelic state, w- you, what those drugs do is help you go further down an avenue or maybe a slightly different avenue, but
- 7:15 – 12:34
Aliens
- AGAlex Garland
that's all.
- LFLex Fridman
So in- in that movie, Annihilation, the- the shimmer, this alternate dreamlike state is created by, I believe perhaps, an alien entity.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Of course, everything is up to interpretation.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Right. But do you think there's, in our world, in our universe, do you think there's intelligent life out there? And if so, how different it, is it from us humans?
- AGAlex Garland
Well, o- one of the things I was trying to do in Annihilation was to- to offer up a form of alien life that was actually alien because, um, it- it- it would often seem to me that in the way we would represent aliens in- in, uh, books or cinema or television or w- you know, any one of the sort of storytelling mediums, is we would always give them very human-like qualities. So they wanted to teach us about galactic federations or they wanted to eat us or they wanted our resources like our wa- water or they want to enslave us or- or whatever it happens to be. But all of these are incredibly human-like motivations. And, um, I was interested in the idea of an alien that was not in any way like us, that didn't share. It, maybe it had a completely different clock speed. Maybe its way ... So w- we're talking about, we're looking at each other. We're getting information, light hits our optic nerve, our brain makes the best guess of what we're doing. Sometimes it's right, sometimes, you know, the thing we were talking about before. What if this alien doesn't have an optic nerve? Maybe its way of encountering the space it's in is wholly different. Maybe it has a different relationship with gravity.
- LFLex Fridman
The basic laws of physics it operates under might be fundamentally different. It could be a different timescale and so on.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. Or i- or it could be the same laws, it could be the same underlying laws of physics. You know, it's- it's a machine, uh, created, uh, or it's a, it's a creature created in a quantum mechanical way. It just ends up in a very, very different place to the one we end up in. So- so part of the preoccupation with Annihilation was to come up with an alien that was really alien, and didn't give us ... And it- it didn't give us and we didn't give it any kind of easy connection between human and the alien. Because I- I think it was to do with the idea that you could have an alien that landed on this planet that wouldn't even know we were here, and we might only glancingly know it was here. There'd just be this strange point where the Venn diagram's connected, where we could sense each other or something like that.
- LFLex Fridman
So in the movie, first of all, incredibly original view of what an alien life would be and it's- it's in that sense, it's a huge success. Let's go inside your imagination. Did the alien, that alien entity know anything about humans when it landed?
- AGAlex Garland
No.
- LFLex Fridman
So the idea is you're bo- you're basically an alien life is trying to reach out to anything that might be able to hear its mechanism of communication. Or was it simply, was it just basically their biologist exploring different kinds of stuff they could find on Earth?
- AGAlex Garland
But you see, but this is the interesting thing is as soon as you say their biologist-
- LFLex Fridman
Right. You're-
- AGAlex Garland
... you've done the thing of attributing human type motivations to it. I- I- I was trying to free myself from anything-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- AGAlex Garland
... like that. So all sorts of questions you might answer about this notional alien, I wouldn't be able to answer because I don't know what it was (laughs) -
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AGAlex Garland
... or- or how it worked, you know? The, I had, I gave it some, I had some rough ideas, like it had a very, very, very slow clock speed and I thought maybe the way it is interacting with this environment is a little bit like the way an octopus will change its color forms around the space that it's in. So it's sort of reacting to what it's in to an extent, but the reason it's reacting in that way is indeterminate.
- LFLex Fridman
But it's, so but its clock speed was slower than our human life clock speed or inter- but it's faster than evolution?
- AGAlex Garland
Faster than our evolution.
- LFLex Fridman
Than our evolution?
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. Given the 4 billion years it took us to get here, then yes, maybe it started eight or-
- LFLex Fridman
If you look at the human civilization as a single organism-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... in that sense, you know, this evolution could be us, uh, you know, the evolution of living organisms on earth could be just a single organism and it's kind of that's its life-
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... is the evolution process that eventually will lead to probably the- the heat death of the universe-
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... or something before that.
- 12:34 – 17:29
Science fiction: imagination becoming reality
- LFLex Fridman
S- so, unfortunately, I can't talk to Stanley Kubrick. So, uh, I'm really fortunate to get a chance to talk to you.
- AGAlex Garland
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
D- do you ... y- see, on this particular notion, uh, I'd like to ask it a bunch of different ways and we'll explore it in different ways. But do you ever consider human imagination, your imagination, as a window into a possible future, in that what you're doing, you're, you're putting that imagination on paper as a writer, and then on screen as a director, and that plants the seeds in the minds of millions of future and current scientists? And so your imagination, you putting it down, actually makes it as, uh, a reality. So it's almost like a first step of the scientific method. Like, you imagining what's possible in your new series with Ex Machina is actually inspiring, you know, thousands of 12-year-olds, millions of scientists, and actually creating the future you've imagined.
- AGAlex Garland
Well, all I could say is that, from my point of view, it's almost exactly the reverse. Because I, I see that pretty much everything I do is a reaction to what scientists are doing. I- I'm, uh, I'm an interested layperson.
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- AGAlex Garland
And I, I feel ... You know, this individual, I feel, that the most interesting area that humans are involved in is science. I think art is very, very interesting, but the most interesting is science. And science is in a weird place, because maybe around the time Newton was a- alive, if a very, very interested layperson said to themselves, "I want to really understand what Newton is saying about the way the world works," um, with a few years of dedicated thinking, they would be able to understand, uh, the, the sort of principles he was laying out. And I don't think that's true anymore. I think that's stopped being true now. So, uh, I'm a pretty smart guy. And if I said to myself, "I want to really, really understand, uh, what is currently the state of quantum mechanics or string theory or, or any of the sort of branching areas of it," I wouldn't be able to. I, I'd be intellectually incapable of doing it. Because, because to, to work in those fields at the moment is a bit like being an athlete. I suspect you need to start when you're 12.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AGAlex Garland
You know? And if you, if you start in your mid-20s, start trying to understand it in your mid-20s, then you're, you're just never gonna catch up. That's the way it feels to me. So, so what I do is I try to make myself open. So, so the people that you're implying maybe I, I would influence, I- i- it ... To me, it's exactly the other way around. These people are strongly influencing me. I'm thinking they're doing something fascinating. I'm concentrating and working as hard as I can to try and understand the implications of what they say. And in some ways, often what I'm trying to do is disseminate their ideas, um, into a, a means by which it can enter a, a public conversation. So, so Ex Machina contains lots of name checks, all sorts of existing thought experiments, you know, uh, shadows on, you know, Plato's cave and Mary in the black and white room, and all, all sorts of different longstanding thought processes about sentience or consciousness or s- subjectivity or, or gender, or whatever it happens to be. And then, and then I'm trying to marshal that into a narrative to say, "Look, this stuff is interesting-"
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAlex Garland
"... and it's also relevant, and this is my best shot at it." So, so I'm the, the one being influenced in my construction.
- LFLex Fridman
That, that's fascinating. Of course you would say that, because you're not even aware of your own ... That's probably what Kubrick would say too, right? Is, uh, uh, in, in describing why HAL 9000 was created the way HAL 9000 was created, is you're just studying what's ... But the reality when it, when the specifics of the knowledge passes through your imagination, I would argue that you're in- incorrect in thinking that you're just disseminating knowledge. That the, the very act of your imagination consuming that science, it creates something, creates the next step, potentially creates the next step. I, I certainly think that's true with 2001: A Space Odyssey. I think at its best, and if it fails, it just doesn't-
- AGAlex Garland
It's true of that. Yeah, it's true of that, definitely. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(Laughs) At its best, it, it, uh, plants something. It's hard to describe, but it, uh, inspires, uh, the, the next generation.
- 17:29 – 22:40
Artificial intelligence
- LFLex Fridman
And, and it could be field-dependent. So your new series is more a connection to physics, quantum physics, qua- quantum mechanics, quantum computing.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And yet Ex Machina is more artificial intelligence. I, I know more about AI.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
My sense that AI is much, much earlier in its, in the depth of its understanding. I would argue nobody understands anything to the depth that physicists do about physics. In AI, nobody understands AI, that there is a lot of importance and role for imagination, which I think, you know, we're in that ... Where, where Freud imagined the subconscious, we're in that stage of, uh, of AI, where there's a lot of imagination needed and thinking outside the box.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah, it's interesting.... the, the, the, the spread of discussions and the spread of anxieties that exist about AI fascinate me. Um, the way in which some people are, some people seem terrified about it w- whilst also pursuing it. And I've never shared that fear about AI personally. Um, uh, but it, but the, the way in which it agitates people, um, and also the people who it agitates, I find, I find kind of fascinating.
- LFLex Fridman
Are you afraid? Are you excited? Uh, are you sad by the possibility? Let's take the existential th- risk of artificial intelligence, by the possibility an artificial intelligence system becomes our offspring and makes us obsolete.
- AGAlex Garland
I mean, it's a huge, it's a huge subject to talk about, I suppose. But, but one of the things I think is that humans are actually, uh, very experienced at creating new life forms, uh, because that's why you and I are both here.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
And it's why everyone on the planet is here. And so, so something in the process of having a living thing that exists that didn't exist previously is very much encoded into the structures of our life and the structures of our societies. Doesn't mean we always get it right, but it does mean we've learnt quite a lot about that. Um, we've learned quite a lot about what the dangers are of, uh, allowing things to be unchecked, and it's why we then create systems of checks and balances in our government, um, and, and so on and so forth. I mean, let's not say... The, the, the other thing is, it seems like there's all sorts of things that you could put into a machine that you would not be... So with us-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAlex Garland
... we, we sort of roughly try to give some rules to live by, and some of us then live by those rules and some don't. With a machine, it feels like you could enforce those things. So, so partly because of our previous experience and partly because of the different nature of a machine, I just don't feel anxious about it. I, I s- I, m- more I just see all the good that, uh, y- you know, broadly speaking, the good that can come from it. Um, but that, that's just my, that's just where I am on that anxiety spectrum.
- LFLex Fridman
You know, it's kind of, th- there's a sadness. So we as humans give birth to oth- other humans, right? But there's gen- and there's generations, and there's often, in the older generation, a sadness about what the world has become now. I mean, that's kind of...
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah, there is, but there's a counterpoint as well, which is that most parents would wish for a better life for their children. So there may be a r- regret about some things about the past, but broadly speaking, what people really want is that things will be better for the future generations, not worse. And so-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAlex Garland
... uh, a- and then it's a question about what constitutes a future generation. A future generation could involve people. It also could involve machines and it could involve a sort of cross-pollinated version of the two or, or i- but, but none of those things make me feel anxious.
- LFLex Fridman
It doesn't give you anxiety. Does it excite you? Like anything that's new?
- AGAlex Garland
It does. Not anything that's new. I, I, I don't think, for example, I've got, I, I, my anxieties relate to things like social media that, that, that-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAlex Garland
So I've got plenty of anxieties about that.
- LFLex Fridman
Which is also driven by artificial intelligence in the sense that there's too much information to be able t- t- is it... An algorithm has to filter that information and present to you, so ultimately the algorithm, uh, a simple, oftentimes simple algorithm is controlling the flow of information on social media. So that's another form of AI.
- AGAlex Garland
It, it is, but, but at least my sense of it, I might be wrong, but my sense of it is that the, the algorithms have, uh, a, an either conscious or unconscious bias, which is created by the people who are making the algorithms and, and sort of delineating the areas to which those algorithms are gonna lean. And so for example, the kind of thing I'd be worried about is that it hasn't been thought about enough how dangerous it is to allow algorithms to create echo chambers, say.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAlex Garland
Um, but that doesn't seem to me to be about the AI or the algorithm. It's, it's the naivety of the people who are constructing the algorithms to do that thing. I- if you see what I mean.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- 22:40 – 31:50
The new "Devs" series and the veneer of virtue in Silicon Valley
- LFLex Fridman
So i- in your new series, Devs, and we could speak more broadly, there's a, let's talk about the people constructing those algorithms, which-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... you know, modern society, Silicon Valley, those algorithms happen to be a source of a lot of income because of advertisements.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So let me ask sort of a question about those people. Are there cur- are current concerns and failures on social media, they're naivety? I can't pronounce that word well. Are they naive? Are they... Uh, I use that word carefully, but evil in intent or misaligned in intent? I think that's a... Do they mean well and just go, uh, have a unintended consequence? Or is there something dark in them that, that results in them creating a company, results in that super competitive drive to be successful, and those are the people that will end up controlling the algorithms?
- AGAlex Garland
At a guess, I'd say there are instances of all those things. So, so sometimes I think it's naivety. Sometimes I think it's extremely dark. Um, and, uh, sometimes I think people are, are not being, uh, naive or dark, and, and then in those instances are sometimes generating things that are very benign, and, and other times generating things that, despite their best intentions, are not very benign. It, it's something... I, I think the reason why I don't get anxious about AI (laughs) in terms of, uh, or, or at least AIs that have, uh, I don't know-... a relationship with, some sort of relationship with humans is that I think that's the stuff we're quite well-equipped to understand how to mitigate. The problem is, is, is issues that relate actually to the power of humans or the wealth of humans, and that's where, that's where it's dangerous here and now. So, so what I see... I'll tell you what I sometimes feel about Silicon Valley, is that it's like Wall Street in the '80s. Um, it- it's rabidly capitalistic, absolutely rabidly capitalistic and it's rabidly greedy. But whereas in the '80s, the sense one had of Wall Street was that these people kind of knew they were sharks and in a way, relished in being sharks, and dressed in sharp suits, and-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
... uh, and, and kind of lauded over other people and felt good about doing it. Silicon Valley has managed to hide its voracious Wall Street-like capitalism behind hipster T-shirts and, you know-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
... uh, cool cafes in the place where they set up there. And, and so that obfuscates what's really going on, and what's really going on is the absolute voracious pursuit of money and power. So, so that- that's where it gets shaky for me.
- LFLex Fridman
So that veneer, and y- you explore that, uh, brilliantly, that veneer of virtue that Silicon Valley has.
- AGAlex Garland
Which they believe themselves, I'm sure, a lot of the time.
- LFLex Fridman
Wait. So let me... (laughs) Okay. I, I hope to be one of those people. Uh, (laughs) and I believe that. So a- as a maybe a devil's advocate-
- AGAlex Garland
Mm.
- LFLex Fridman
... term poorly used in this case, what if some of them really are trying to build a better world? I can't-
- AGAlex Garland
I'm sure, I think some of them are. I think I've spoken to ones who I believe in their heart feel they're building a better world.
- LFLex Fridman
Are they not able to in a sense?
- AGAlex Garland
No, no, no, they may or may not be, but it's just as, a zone with a lot of bullshit flying about. And there's also another thing which is, th- this actually goes back to, uh... I, I, I always thought about some sports that later turned out to be corrupt in the way that the sport, like, who, who won the boxing match or, uh, how a football match got thrown or cricket match or whatever it happened to be. And I used to think, "Well, look, if there's a lot of money, and there really is a lot of money, people stand to make millions or even billions, you will find corruption. That's gonna happen." So, so it's, it- it's in the nature of its, of its voracious appetite that some people will be corrupt and some people will exploit and some people will exploit whilst thinking they're doing something good. But there are also people who I think are very, very smart and very benign and actually very self-aware, and so I'm not, I'm not trying to... I- I'm not trying to wipe out the motivations of this entire area.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAlex Garland
Um, but I do, I, there are people in that world who scare the hell out of me. Yeah, sure.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. I'm, I'm a little bit naive in that, like, I, it, I, I don't care at all about money, and so I'm, uh...
- AGAlex Garland
You, you might be one of the good guys.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, but so the thought is, but I don't have money.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
So my thought is if you give me a billion dollars, I would, it would change nothing and I would spend it right away on, on investing it right back and creating a good world. But your intuition, and... Is that billion, there's something about that money that-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... maybe slowly corrupts the-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah, well-
- LFLex Fridman
... people around you. There's, somebody gets in that corrupts your soul, the view, the way you view the world.
- AGAlex Garland
Money does corrupt. We know that. But, but there's a different sort of problem aside from just the money corrupts, you know, thing that we're familiar with in- throughout history. Um, and it's, it's more about a sense of reinforcement an individual gets.
- 31:50 – 44:58
Ex Machina and 2001: A Space Odyssey
- LFLex Fridman
for an entire generation of AI researchers, 2001: A Space Odyssey, uh, put an image, the idea of human-level, super-human level intelligence into their mind. Do you ever, i- instead of jumping back to Ex Machina, and talk a little bit about that, do you ever consider the audience of people who you, who, uh, build the systems, the roboticists, the scientists that build the systems based on the stories you create? Which I would argue, I mean, there's literally most of the top researchers, about 40, 50 years old and plus, you know, that's their favorite movie, 2001: Space Odyssey, and it really is in their work.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Their idea of what ethics is, of what is the target, the hope, the dangers of AI is that movie, right?
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you ever consider the- the impact on those researchers when you create the- the work you do?
- AGAlex Garland
Certainly not with Ex Machina in relation to 2001 because I'm not sure, I mean, I'd be pleased if there was, but I'm not sure, in a way, there isn't a fundamental, uh, discussion of issues to do with AI that isn't already and better dealt with by 2001. 2001 does a very, very good account of- of the way in which an AI might think and also potential issues with the way the AI might think. And also, then a separate question about whether the AI is malevolent or benevolent, and 2001 doesn't really... It- it's a slightly odd thing to be making a film when you know there's a preexisting film, which has done a really (laughs) superb job.
- LFLex Fridman
But there's, uh, questions of consciousness, embodiment and also the same kinds of questions. Like c- could you... 'Cause those are my two favorite AI movies, so can you compare HAL 9000 and Ava, HAL 9000 from 2001: Space Odyssey and Ava from Ex Machina, with the... in your view, from a philosophical perspective?
- AGAlex Garland
But they've got different goals. The two AIs have completely different goals. I- I think that's really the difference. So in some respects, Ex Machina took as a premise how do you assess whether something else has consciousness? So it was a version of the Turing test except instead of having the machine hidden, you- you put the machine in plain sight, in the way that we are in plain sight of each other and say, "Now assess the consciousness." In a way, it was illustrating the- the- the- the- the way in which you'd assess the state of consciousness of a machine is this, exactly the same way we ass- assess the state of consciousness of each other. And in exactly the same way that, in a funny way, your sense of my consciousness is- is actually based primarily on your own consciousness.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- AGAlex Garland
That is also then true with the machine. And- and so it- it was actually about how much of the sense of consciousness is a projection, rather than something that consciousness-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- AGAlex Garland
... is actually containing. Um...
- LFLex Fridman
And H- H- Plato's cave, I mean, so you really explored, you could argue that HAL, sort of Space Odyssey explores idea of the Turing test for intelligence. Well, not test, there's no test, but it's more focused on intelligence and Ex Machina kind of goes around intelligence and says the consciousness or the human-to-human, human-to-robot interaction is more interes- more impor- more... at least the focus of that particular, uh, particular movie.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah, it- it's about the interior state and- and what constitutes the interior state and how do we know it's there? And that, and actually in that respect, Ex Machina is as much about consciousness in general as it is to do specifically with machine consciousness.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- AGAlex Garland
And it's also interesting, you- you know that thing you started asking about the- the dream state and I was saying, "Well, I think we're all in a dream state because we're all in a subjective state"?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
Um, one of the things that I became aware of with Ex Machina is that the way in which people reacted to the film was very based on what they took into the film. So many people thought Ex Ma- uh, Ex- Ex Machina was a st- was the tale of a sort of evil robot who murders two men and escapes, and she has no empathy, for example, because she's a machine. Whereas I felt, no, she was a conscious being with a consciousness different from mine, but so what? Imprisoned and made a bunch of value judgments about how to get out of that box. And th- there's a moment which i- it sort of, it slightly bugs me, but nobody ever has noticed it and it's years after so I might as well say it now, which is that after s- Ava has escaped...... she crosses a room, and as she's crossing a room, this is just before she leaves the building, she looks over her shoulder and she smiles. And I thought, after all the conversation about tests, the, in a way, the best indication you could have of the interior state of someone is if they are not being observed and they smile about something or they're smiling for themself. And that, to me, was evidence of Ava's true sentience, whatever that sentience was. It was-
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, that's really interesting. She, we don't get to observe Ava much or, or something like a smile in any context except through interaction trying to convince others that she is conscious. That's, that's beautifully done.
- AGAlex Garland
E- exactly, yeah. But, but it was a small, it, in a funny way, I think maybe people saw it as an evil smile, like, "Ha," you know?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
"I, I fooled them." But actually, it was just a smile, and I thought, "Well, in the end, after all the conversations about the test, that was the answer to the test," and then off she goes.
- LFLex Fridman
So if we alli- if we, just to linger it a little, a little bit longer on HAL and Ava, do you think, in terms of motivation, what was HAL's motivation? Is HAL good or evil? Is Ava good or evil?
- AGAlex Garland
Ava's good, in my opinion, um, and HAL is neutral because I don't think HAL is presented as having, uh, a, a sophisticated emotional life. He has a set of paradigms, which is that the mission needs to be completed. I mean, it's a version of the paperclip.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
You know?
- LFLex Fridman
The idea there is just, uh, it's a super intelligent machine but it's just, uh, performs a particular task.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And, and doing that task may destroy everybody on Earth or may-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- 44:58 – 49:34
Lone genius
- LFLex Fridman
One of the things that people bring up, you can't please everyone, including myself. This is what I first reacted to the film, is the idea of the lone genius. This is the, the-
- AGAlex Garland
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... cr- the criticism that people say-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... sort of... Me as an AI researcher, I'm trying to create what, what, um, what Nathan is trying to do. So there's a, a brilliant series called Chernobyl.
- AGAlex Garland
Yes, it's fantastic. Absolutely spectacular.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, inc-... I mean-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... eyes ar-... I mean, they got so many things brilliantly right.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
But one of the things, again, the criticism there-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... uh,
- AGAlex Garland
They conflated lots of people into one-
- LFLex Fridman
... into one character-
- AGAlex Garland
... yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... that represents all nuclear scientists-
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... Ilona Chomiak.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, you know, it's a composite character that represents all scientists.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Is this what you were... Is this the way you were thinking about that or is it... it just simplifies the storytelling? How do you think about the lone genius?
- AGAlex Garland
Well, I'd say this. The series I'm doing at the moment is a critique, in part, of the lone v- genius concept. So yes, I'm sort of oppositional and either agnostic or atheistic about that as a concept. I mean, th- th- not entirely, you know. Uh, whether lone, lone is the right word, broadly isolated, but Newton clearly exists in a sort of bubble of himself. In some respects, so does Shakespeare and t-
- LFLex Fridman
But do you think we would have an iPhone without Steve Jobs? I mean, how much contribution from a genius-
- AGAlex Garland
Well, no, because... but Steve Jobs clearly isn't a lone genius because, because there's too many other people in the sort of super structure around him who are absolutely fundamental to, to that journey.
- LFLex Fridman
But you're saying Newton, but that's a scientific... So there's an engineering-
- AGAlex Garland
And look-
- LFLex Fridman
... element to b- building Ava.
- AGAlex Garland
But just to say, wha- what... Ex Machina is a... is, is really... it's a thought experiment.
- 49:34 – 51:24
Drawing inpiration from Elon Musk
- LFLex Fridman
Drawing inspiration from real life, so for, for Devs, for Ex Machina, look at characters like Elon Musk. What do you think about the various big technological efforts of Elon Musk and others like him, in, that he's involved with, such as Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink? Do you see any of, any of that technology potentially defining the future worlds you create in your work? So Tesla is automation. SpaceX is space exploration. Neuralink is brain-machine interface, somehow a merger of, uh, biological and electric systems.
- AGAlex Garland
I'm, in a way, I'm influenced by that almost by definition because that's the world I live in and this is the thing that's happening in that world. And I also feel supportive of it. So, uh, I think, I think amongst various things, Elon Musk has done ... I'm, I'm almost sure he's done a very, very good thing with Tesla for all of us. Um, it's really kicked all the other car manufacturers in the face. It's kicked the fossil fuel industry in the face, and, and they needed kicking in the face, and he's done it. So, and, and so that's the world he's part of creating and I live in that world. Um, just bought a Tesla, in fact. And so, uh, um, does that play into whatever I then make? In some ways it does, partly because I try to be a writer who ... Quite often, filmmakers, are in some ways fixated on the films they grew up with, and they sort of remake those films in some ways. I've always tried to avoid that. And so I look to the real world to get inspiration and, as much as possible, sort of by living, I think. And, uh, so, so yeah, I'm sure.
- 51:24 – 54:03
Space travel
- AGAlex Garland
- LFLex Fridman
Which of the directions do you find most exciting?
- AGAlex Garland
Space travel.
- LFLex Fridman
Space travel. So you haven't really explored space travel in your work. You've said, you've said something like if, if you had unlimited amount of money, I think on a Reddit AMA, that you would make, like a multi-year series of Space Wars or something like that.
- AGAlex Garland
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
So what, what is it that excites you about space exploration?
- AGAlex Garland
Well, because if we have any sort of long-term future, it's that. It, it just simply is that. If energy and matter are linked up in the way we think they're linked up, we'll run out if we don't move. So, we gotta move. And, but, but also, I ... How can we not? It's, it's built into us to, to do it or die trying. I, I was on Easter Island, um, a few months ago, which is, as I'm sure you know, in the middle of the Pacific and, and difficult for people to have got to, but they got there. And I did think a lot about the way those boats m- must have set out into something like space. It was the ocean. And, and how sort of fundamental that was to the way we are, and, um, it, it's the one that most excites me because it's the one I want most to happen. It's the thing, it's the place where we could get to as humans. Like in a way, I could live with us never really unlocking, fully unlocking the nature of consciousness. I, it ... I'd, I'd like to know. I'm really curious. But if we never leave this solar system, and if we never get further out into this galaxy or maybe even galaxies beyond our galaxy, that, that would ... That feels sad to me-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAlex Garland
... because, um, uh, because it's so limiting.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, there's something hopeful and beautiful about reaching out, any kind of exploration, reaching out across Earth, centuries ago, and then reaching out into space. So what do you think about colonization of Mars? So going to Mars, does that excite you, the idea of a human being stepping foot on Mars?
- AGAlex Garland
It does. It absolutely does. But in terms of what would really excite me, it would be leaving this solar system. Inasmuch as that I just think... I think we already know quite a lot about Mars and ... But yes, listen, if it happened, that would be ... I, I hope I see it in my lifetime. I really hope I see it in my lifetime. I, so it would be a wonderful thing.
- 54:03 – 57:35
Free will
- AGAlex Garland
- LFLex Fridman
Without giving anything away, but, uh, the series begins with the use of quantum computers.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
The new series, Devs, uh, begins with the use of quantum computers to simulate basic living organisms. Or actually, I don't know if it's quantum computers they use, but, uh, basic living organisms are simulated on a screen.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah, the-
- LFLex Fridman
It's a really cool kind of demo.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah, that's right. They're using ... Yes, they are using a quantum computer to simulate a, uh, nematode. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So returning to our discussion of simulation or thinking of the universe as a computer, do you think the universe is deterministic? Is there a free will?
- AGAlex Garland
So, with the qualification of...... what do I know because I'm a layman, right, layperson. But with-
- LFLex Fridman
With big imagination.
- AGAlex Garland
Thanks. (laughs) With that qualification, uh, yeah, I think the universe is deterministic and I see absolutely d- I, I, I cannot see how free will fits into that. So, so yes deterministic, no free will. That would be my position.
- LFLex Fridman
And how does that make you feel?
- AGAlex Garland
It, it partly makes me feel that it's exactly in keeping with the way these things tend to work out, which is that we have an incredibly strong sense that we do have free will, um, uh, and just as we have an incredibly strong sense that time is a constant, and, uh, turns out probably not to be the case. Or definitely in the case of time. But, but, but it's, the problem I always have with free will is that it gets... I c- I can never seem to find the place where it is supposed to reside.
- LFLex Fridman
And yet, you ex- explore...
- AGAlex Garland
Just bit of very, very... But we have something we can call free will, but it's not the thing that we think it is.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, free will is... So do you f- What we call free will is just a-
- AGAlex Garland
Is just, what we call it as the illusion of it, and that's-
- LFLex Fridman
... just a subjective experience of-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. W-
- LFLex Fridman
... the, yeah, illusion.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. W- which is a useful thing to have, and it partly i- it partly comes down to although we live in a deterministic universe, our brains are not very well-equipped to fully determine the ter- deterministic universe, so we're constantly surprised and feel like we're making snap deci- decisions based on imperfect information. So that feels a lot like free will. It just isn't. W- would be my... That, that's my, my guess.
- LFLex Fridman
So in that sense, your s- sort of sense is that you can unroll the universe forward or backward and you will see the same thing, and you would... I mean, th- that notion...
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. Sort of. Sort of. But yeah, sorry, go ahead.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, that notion is, is a bit uncomfortable to think about, that it, it's c- you can roll it back and, uh, and forward and-
- AGAlex Garland
Well, if you were able to do it, it would certainly have to be a quantum computer-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
... something that worked in a quantum mechanical way, in order to understand a quantum mechanical system, uh, I, I guess. But, but-
- LFLex Fridman
And so that unrolling, there might be a multiverse thing where there's a bunch of branching and those other kinds of things.
- AGAlex Garland
Well, well exactly. B- because it wouldn't follow that every time you roll it back or forward you'd get exactly the same result.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Which is another thing that's hard to wrap a mind around. (laughs) So...
- 57:35 – 1:06:38
Devs and the poetry of science
- LFLex Fridman
lines, w- you've explored some really deep scientific ideas i- in this new series, and I mean, just in general, you're unafraid to, to, uh, to ground yourself in some of the most amazing scientific ideas of our time. What, what are the things you've learned, or ideas you find beautiful and mysterious about quantum mechanics, multiverse, string theory, quantum computing that you've learned?
- AGAlex Garland
Well, I would have to say every single thing I've learned is beautiful. And one of the motivators for me is that I think that people tend not to see scientific thinking as being essentially poetic and lyrical. But, but I think that is literally exactly what it is. And I think the idea of entanglement or the idea of superpositions or the fact that you could even demonstrate a superposition or have a machine that relies on the existence of superpositions in order to function, to me, is, is almost indescribably beautiful. I, it, it, it, uh, it fills me with awe. It fills me with awe. And also, it's not, it's not just a sort of grand massive awe of... But it, it's also delicate. It's very, very delicate and subtle. And, uh, it has these beautiful sort of nuances in it, and also these completely paradigm-changing thoughts and truths. So, so it's, it's as good as it gets, as far as I can tell. So, so, so broadly everything. That doesn't mean I believe everything I read (laughs) in quantum physics-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AGAlex Garland
... because, 'cause o- obviously a lot of the interpretations are completely in conflict with each other and, um, who knows whether string theory will turn out to be a good description or not. But, um, but the beauty in it, it seems undeniable. And, a- and I do wish people more readily understood how beautiful and poetic science is, I would say.
- LFLex Fridman
Science is poetry. In terms of quantum computing being used to simulate things, or just in general, the idea of simulating, simulating small parts of our world, which actually current physicists are really excited about, simulating small quantum mechanical systems on quantum computers, but scaling that up to something bigger like simulating life forms, how do you think... What are the possible trajectories of that going wrong or going right if you th- if you unroll that into the future?
- AGAlex Garland
Well, if a bit like Ava and her robotics, you, you park the, the sheer complexity of what you're trying to do, um, the, the issues are, I think, I think it will have a profound... I- if you were able to have a machine that was able to project forwards and backwards accurately, it would in an empirical way show, it would demonstrate that you don't have free will. So the first thing that would happen is people would have to, to really take on a very, very different idea of what they were.... the thing that they truly, truly believe they are, they are not. And so that, that I suspect, would be very, very disturbing to a lot of people.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think that has a positive or negative effect on society, the, the realization that you are not ... you cannot control your actions, essentially, I guess, is the way that could be interpreted?
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. Al- although, in some ways, we instinctively understand that already because in the example I gave you of the kid in the stabbing, we would all understand that that kid was not really fully in control of their actions. So it's not an idea that's entirely alien to us. But-
- LFLex Fridman
I don't know we understand that. I think there's a bunch of people who see the world that way, but not everybody.
- AGAlex Garland
Yes, true. I, o- of course, true.
- LFLex Fridman
And, and-
- AGAlex Garland
But what this machine would do is, is prove it-
- LFLex Fridman
Prove it.
- AGAlex Garland
... beyond any doubt, because someone would say, "Well, I don't believe that's true." And then you'd, you'd predict, "Well, in 10 seconds, you're gonna do this." And they'd say, "No. No, I'm not." And then they'd do it, and then determinism would have played its part. But I ... Or, or, or something like that. But, um, actually, the exact terms of that thought experiment probably wouldn't play out. But, but still broadly speaking, you could predict something happening in another room, sort of unseen, I suppose, uh, that full knowledge would not allow you to affect. So, um, what effect would that have? I think people would find it very disturbing. But then after they'd got over their sense of being disturbed, um, uh ... Which by the way, I don't even think you need a machine to, to take this idea onboard. But after they've got over that, they'd still understand that even though I have no free will and my actions are in effect already determined, um, I still feel things. I, I still care about stuff. I remember my daughter saying to me, um, uh ... Well, she, she got hold of the idea that my view of the universe made it meaningless.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AGAlex Garland
And she said, "Well, then it's meaningless." And I said, "Well, it, it ... I can prove it's not meaningless because you mean something to me and I mean something to you. So it's not completely meaningless because there is a bit of meaning contained within this space." And so with a, uh, lack of free will space, you could think, "Well, this robs me of everything I am." And you, then you'd say, "Well, no, it doesn't, because you still like eating cheeseburgers, and you still like going to see the movies." And so, so h- how big a difference does it really make? Um, but I think it, I, I think initially, people would find it very disturbing. I think, I think that what would come if you could really unlock with a determinism machine everything, there'd be this wonderful wisdom that would come from it, and I'd rather have that than not.
- LFLex Fridman
So that's a, that's a really good example of a technology revealing to us humans something fundamental about our world, about our society. So it's, it's almost this creation is helping us under- stand ourselves. And the same could be said about artificial intelligence. So what do you think us creating something like Ava will help us understand about ourselves? How will that change society?
- AGAlex Garland
Well, I, I would hope it would teach us some humility. Humans are very big on exceptionalism, you know? Uh, America is, is constantly proclaiming itself to be the greatest nation on Earth, which it may feel like that if you're an American, but it may not feel like that if you're from Finland, because there's all sorts of things you dearly love about Finland. And, uh, exceptionalism is, is usually bullshit. Probably not always. If we both sat here, we could find a good example of something that isn't, but as a rule of thumb.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AGAlex Garland
And, uh, and, and what it would do is it would teach us some humility and a- a- about, you know, actually often, that's what science does in a funny way. It makes us more and more interesting, but it makes us a smaller and smaller part of the thing that's interesting. And, um, I don't mind that humility at all. Uh, I, I don't think it's a bad thing.
- LFLex Fridman
Y-
- AGAlex Garland
Our excesses don't tend to come from humility. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) No. Okay.
- AGAlex Garland
You know, our excesses come from the opposite, megalomania and stuff. We tend to think of consciousness as having some form of exceptionalism attached to it. I suspect if we ever unravel it, it will turn out to be less than we thought in a way.
- LFLex Fridman
And perhaps your very own exceptionalist assertion earlier on in our conversation that consciousness is something belongs to us humans, or not humans, but living organisms, maybe you will one day find out that consciousness is in everything. And that will, uh, that will humble you if that-
- AGAlex Garland
I- I- I- if that was true, it would certainly humble me. Al- although maybe, almost maybe, I don't know. I don't know what effect that would have. Um, I, I, I sort of ... I mean, my understanding of that principle is along the lines of say, that, that an electron has a preferred state, or it may or may not pass through, uh, a bit of glass. It may reflect off or it may go through or something like that. And, and so that feels as if a choice has been made. And, um, uh, but if, if I'm going down the fully deterministic route, I would say there's just an underlying determinism that has-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AGAlex Garland
... defined that, that has defined the pre- preferred state or the reflection or non-reflection. So, but look, yeah, you're right, if, if, if it turned out that there was a thing that it was like to be the sun, then, uh, I would ... I'd be amazed and humbled, and I'd be happy to be both though. It sounds pretty cool.
- LFLex Fridman
And it'll be, you'll say the same things you said to your daughter, but it nevertheless feels something like to be me, and that, that's pretty damn good.
- 1:06:38 – 1:11:08
What will you be remembered for?
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So Kubrick created many masterpieces including-
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... The Shining, Doctor Strangelove-
- AGAlex Garland
Sure did.
- LFLex Fridman
... Clockwork Orange. But to me, he will be remembered I think to many, 100 years from now, for 2001: A Space Odyssey.
- AGAlex Garland
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
I would say that's his greatest film.
- AGAlex Garland
I agree.
- LFLex Fridman
You are incredibly humble. (laughs) I've listened to a bunch of your interviews and I really appreciate that you're humble in your creative efforts and your work. But if I were to force you at gunpoint-
- AGAlex Garland
(laughs) Do you have a gun?
- LFLex Fridman
You don't know that, the mystery.
- AGAlex Garland
(laughs) Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, (laughs) is, d- to imagine 100 years out into the future, what will Alex Garland be remembered for? From something you've created already or feel you may feel somewhere deep inside you may still create?
- AGAlex Garland
Well, okay, well, I'll take, I'll take the question in the spirit it was asked, but f- uh, very generous. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
Gunpoint.
- AGAlex Garland
Yeah. (laughs) Um, what, what I, what I try to do, so therefore, what I hope... Yeah, if I'm remembered, what I might be remembered for, is, is, as someone who, who participates in a conversation, and I think that often what happens is people don't participate in conversations, they make proclamations, they make statements, and people can either react against the statement or can fall in line behind it, and I don't like that. So I want to be part of a conversation. I, I take as a sort of basic principle, I think I take lots of my cues from science, but one of the best ones it seems to me is that when a scientist has something proved wrong that they previously believed in, they then have to abandon that position. So I'd like to be someone who is allied to that sort of thinking. So part of an exchange of an- a part of an exchange of ideas, and the exchange of ideas for me is something like people in your world show me things about how the world work, and then I say, "This is how I feel about what you've told me." And then other people can react to that. And it's, it's not, it's not to say this is how the world is. Uh, it's just to say, it is interesting to think about the world in this way.
- LFLex Fridman
And the conversation is one of the things I'm really hopeful about in, in your works. The, the conversation you're having is with the viewer in the sense that you, you're bringing back, you and several others, but you very much so, sort of intellectual depth to cinema, to now series, uh, sort of allowing film to be something that, yeah, sparks a conversation, is a conversation. Lets people think, uh, allows them to think.
- AGAlex Garland
But also crue- it's very important for me that if that conversation is gonna be a good conversation, what that must involve is that someone like you who understands AI and I imagine understands a lot about quantum mechanics, if they then watch the narrative, feels, yes, this is a fair account. So it, it is a worthy addition to the conversation. That for me is hugely important. I'm not interested in getting that stuff wrong. I'm only interested in trying to get it right.
- LFLex Fridman
Alex, it was truly an honor to talk to you. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
- AGAlex Garland
Thank you. Thanks, man.
- LFLex Fridman
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Alex Garland, and thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App. Download it, use code LEXPODCAST. You'll get $10 and $10 will go to FIRST, an organization that inspires and educates young minds to become science and technology innovators of tomorrow. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @LexFridman. And now, let me leave you with a question from Ava, the central artificial intelligence character in the movie Ex Machina, that she asked during her Turing test. "What will happen to me if I fail your test?" Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Episode duration: 1:11:08
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