Ann Druyan: Cosmos, Carl Sagan, Voyager, and the Beauty of Science | Lex Fridman Podcast #78

1. 0:00 – 3:24

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Ann Druyan, writer, producer, director, and one of the most important and impactful communicators of science in our time. She co-wrote the 1980 science documentary series Cosmos, hosted by Carl Sagan, whom she married in 1981. And her love for whom, with the help of NASA, was recorded as brain waves on a golden record along with other things our civilization has to offer, and launched into space on the Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 spacecraft that are now, 42 years later, still active, reaching out farther into deep space than any human made object ever has. This was a profound and beautiful decision Ann made as a creative director of NASA's Voyager Interstellar Message project. In 2014, she went on to create the second season of Cosmos, called Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey. And in 2020, the new third season, called Cosmos: Possible Worlds, which is being released this upcoming Monday, March 9th. It is hosted, once again, by the fun and the brilliant Neil deGrasse Tyson. Carl Sagan, Annie Druyan, and Cosmos have inspired millions of scientists and curious minds across several generations by revealing the magic, the power, the beauty of science. I am one such curious mind. And if you listen to this podcast, you may know that Elon Musk is as well. He graciously agreed to read Carl Sagan's words about the pale blue dot in my second conversation with him. If you listened, there was an interesting and inspiring twist at the end. This is the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. As usual, I'll do one or two minutes of ads now, and never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation. I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. When you get it, use code LEXPODCAST. Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as $1. Since Cash App allows you to send and receive money digitally peer-to-peer, and security in all digital transactions is very important, let me mention the PCI data security standard that Cash App is compliant with. I'm a big fan of standards for safety and security. PCI DSS is a good example of that, where a bunch of competitors got together and agreed that there needs to be a global standard around the security of transactions. Now we just need to do the same for autonomous vehicles and artificial intelligence systems in general. So again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use the code LEXPODCAST, you get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, one of my favorite organizations that is helping to advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world. And now, here's my conversation with Ann Druyan.

2. 3:24 – 7:04

   Role of science in society

   1. LFLex Fridman3:24

      What is the role of science in our society?

   2. ADAnn Druyan3:27

      Well, I think of what Einstein said when he opened the 1939 New York World's Fair. He said, "If science is ever to fulfill its mission the way art has done, it must penetrate, its inner meaning must penetrate the consciousness of everyone." And so for me, especially in a civilization dependent on high technology and science, one that aspires to be democratic, it's critical that the public, as informed decision makers, understand the values and the methods and the rules of science.

   3. LFLex Fridman4:18

      So you think about the, what you just mentioned, the values and the methods and the rules and the, maybe the technology that science produces. But what about sort of the beauty, the mystery of science?

   4. ADAnn Druyan4:31

      Well, that, you've touched on what I think is, for me, that's how, my way into science is that, for me, it's much more spiritually uplifting. The revelations of science, the collective revelations of, you know, really countless generations of searchers. And the little tiny bit we know about reality is the greatest joy for me because I think that it relates to the idea of love. Like, what is love that is based on illusion about the other?

   5. LFLex Fridman5:07

      (laughs)

   6. ADAnn Druyan5:07

      That's not love. Love is seeing, unflinching, the other and accepting with all your heart. And to me, knowing the universe as it is, or the little bit that we're able to understand at this point, is a, is the purest kind of love. And therefore, you know, how can our philosophy, our religion, if it's rootless in nature, how can it really be true? I just don't understand. So I think you need science, uh, to get a sense of, of the real romance of life and the great experience of being awake in the cosmos.

   7. LFLex Fridman5:50

      So that, the fact that we know so little, the, the humbling nature of that, so it ... And you kind of connect love to that, but isn't it also, isn't it scary? Isn't it ...

   8. Why is it so inspiring, do you think? Why is it so beautiful that we know so little?

   9. ADAnn Druyan6:11

      Well, first of all, as Socrates thought, you know, knowing that you know little is knowing really knowing something, knowing more than others. And it's the-

   10. LFLex Fridman6:21

       Hm.

   11. ADAnn Druyan6:21

       It's that voice whispering in our, our heads, you know, "You might be wrong."

   12. LFLex Fridman6:25

       (laughs)

   13. ADAnn Druyan6:26

       Which I think is not only ... It's really healthy, because we're so imperfect. We're human, of course. But also, you know, love to me is the feeling you always want to go deeper, get closer. You can't get enough of it. You can't get close enough, deep enough. So ... And that's what science is always saying. Science is never simply content with its understanding of any aspect of nature. It's always saying, it's always finding that even smaller cosmos beneath. So, I, uh, I think the two are very much parallel.

3. 7:04 – 9:07

   Love and science

   1. LFLex Fridman7:04

      So, you said that love is not an illusion.

   2. ADAnn Druyan7:08

      No, it's not. Well if it is-

   3. LFLex Fridman7:10

      So what is love? (laughs)

   4. ADAnn Druyan7:12

      What is love is, is knowing ... For me, love is, is knowing something deeply and still being completely gratified by it, you know? And wanting to know more. So, what is love? What is loving someone, a person-

   5. LFLex Fridman7:33

      Yes.

   6. ADAnn Druyan7:33

      ... let's say, deeply, is not idealizing them, not putting some kind of subjective projection on them, but knowing them as they are. And so for me, for s- for me, the only aperture to that knowing about nature, the universe, is science, because it has that error-correcting mechanism that most of, uh, the stuff that we do doesn't have. You know, you could say the Bill of Rights is kind of an error-correcting mechanism, which I ... It's one of the things I really appreciate about the society in which I live, to the extent that it's upheld and we keep faith with it, and the same with science. It's like we will give you the highest rewards we have for proving us wrong about something.

   7. LFLex Fridman8:24

      (laughs)

   8. ADAnn Druyan8:24

      That's genius. That's, that's why, that's why in only 400 years, since Galileo's first look through a telescope, we could get from this really dim, vague app- this vague apprehension of another world to sending our eyes and our senses there, or even to going beyond. So, it is, it is ... It delivers the goods-

   9. LFLex Fridman8:56

      (laughs)

   10. ADAnn Druyan8:56

       ... like nothing else, you know? It really ... It delivers the goods because it's always f- it's always self-aware of its fallibility.

   11. LFLex Fridman9:06

       So, on,

4. 9:07 – 14:15

   Skepticism in science

   1. LFLex Fridman9:07

      on that topic, I'd like to ask just your opinion, and a feeling I have that I'm not sure what to do with, which is the, the skeptical aspect of science. So, the modern skeptics community, and just in general, certain scientists, many scientists, maybe most scientists that apply the scientific method are kind of rigorous in that application. And they, it feels like, sometimes miss out some of the ideas outside the reach of, just slightly outside the reach of science, and they don't dare to sort of dream or think of revolutionary ideas that others will call crazy in this particular moment. So, how do you think about the skeptical aspect of science that is really good at sort of keeping us in check, keeping us humble, but, but at the same time, sort of the kind of dreams that you and Carl Sagan have inspired in the world? Uh, it kind of shuts it down sometimes a little bit.

   2. ADAnn Druyan10:02

      Yeah. I mean, I think it's up to the individual. But for me, you know, I was so ridiculously fortunate in that I ... My tutorial in science, because I'm not a scientist and I wasn't trained in science, was 20 years of days and nights with Carl Sagan.

   3. LFLex Fridman10:20

      Right.

   4. ADAnn Druyan10:20

      And the wonder ... I think the reason Carl remains so beloved ... Well, I think there are many reasons. But at the root of it is the fact that his skepticism was never at the cost of his wonder, and his wonder was never at the cost of his skepticism. So, he couldn't fool himself into believing something he wanted to believe because it made him feel good. At the other ... But on the other hand, he recognized that what science, what nature is, is really ... It's good enough, you know? It's way better-

   5. LFLex Fridman10:55

      (laughs)

   6. ADAnn Druyan10:55

      ... than our fantasies.

   7. LFLex Fridman10:57

      Yeah.

   8. ADAnn Druyan10:57

      And so if you, if you're that kind of person who loves happiness and loves life and your eyes are wide open and you read everything (laughs) you can get your hands on and you spend years studying what is known so far about the universe, then you have that capacity, uh, really infinite capacity to be alive. But all ... And also, at the same time, to be very rigorous about what you're willing to believe. For Carl, I don't think he ever felt that, uh, his skepticism cost him anything, because again, it comes back to love. He wanted to know what nature really was like, not to inflict his, you know, preconceived notions on what he wanted it to be. So, you can't go wrong.

   9. LFLex Fridman11:47

      (laughs)

   10. ADAnn Druyan11:48

       Because it doesn't, you know ... I mean, you know, I think the pale blue dot is the, is, is a perfect example of this, this massive achievement, is to say, "Okay." Or the Voyager records, another example, is here we have this mission, our first reconnaissance of the outer solar system.... well, how can we make it a mission in which we absolutely squeeze every drop of consciousness and understanding from it? We don't have to be scientists and then be human beings. I think that's the tragedy of Western civilization is that it's, you know, when it, one of its greatest gifts, uh, has been science, and yet at the same time, it, believing that we are the children of a disappointed father, a tyrant-

   11. LFLex Fridman12:46

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ADAnn Druyan12:46

       ... who puts us in maximum security prison and calls it Paradise, who looks at us, who watches us every moment, and hates us for being our human selves. You know, and then most of all, what is our great sin? It's partaking of the tree of knowledge, which is our greatest gift as humans.

   13. LFLex Fridman13:09

       Yeah.

   14. ADAnn Druyan13:09

       This pattern recognition, this ability to, to see things and then synthesize them and jump to conclusions about them and test those conclusions. So, I think the reason that in literature, in movies, the scientist is a figure of alienation, a figure, you know... Oh, oh, you see these biopics about scientists and-

   15. LFLex Fridman13:36

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ADAnn Druyan13:36

       ... yeah, he might have been great, but, you know, he was missing in ship. You know?

   17. LFLex Fridman13:42

       (laughs)

   18. ADAnn Druyan13:42

       He was a lousy husband. He lacked, you know, the kind of spiritual understanding that, uh, maybe, you know, his wife had.

   19. LFLex Fridman13:53

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ADAnn Druyan13:53

       And it's always in the end they come around. But to me, that's, that's a false dichotomy, that we are, you know, to the extent that we are aware of our surroundings and understand them, which is what science makes it possible for us to do, we're even more alive.

   21. LFLex Fridman14:11

       So, you, you mentioned a million awesome things there. Let, let's even just-

5. 14:15 – 36:41

   Voyager, Carl Sagan, and the Golden Record

   1. LFLex Fridman14:15

   2. ADAnn Druyan14:15

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman14:15

      Can you tell me about the Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft and the, and the Interstellar Message Project and that whole just fascinating world leading up to-

   4. ADAnn Druyan14:24

      One of my favorite subjects. I love talking about it.

   5. LFLex Fridman14:27

      (laughs)

   6. ADAnn Druyan14:27

      I'll never get over it.

   7. LFLex Fridman14:28

      Yeah.

   8. ADAnn Druyan14:29

      I'll never be able to really wrap my head around the, the reality of it, the truth of it.

   9. LFLex Fridman14:35

      What is it, first of all? What's the Voyager spacecraft?

   10. ADAnn Druyan14:37

       Okay, so Voyagers 1 and 2 were our first reconnaissance mission of what was then considered the outer s- solar system. And it was a gift of gravity.

   11. LFLex Fridman14:49

       (laughs)

   12. ADAnn Druyan14:49

       The idea that swinging around, uh, these worlds gives you a gravitational assist-

   13. LFLex Fridman14:56

       Yes.

   14. ADAnn Druyan14:57

       ... which ultimately will send you out of the solar system to wander the Milky Way galaxy for one to five billion years. So, Voyager gave us our first closeup look of, uh, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, um, Neptune. It discovered new moons. It discovered volcanoes, uh, on Io. It, it, it, its achievements are astonishing. And remember, this is technology from the early to mid-1970s.

   15. LFLex Fridman15:37

       And it's still active.

   16. ADAnn Druyan15:38

       And it's still active. We talked to Voyager a few days ago.

   17. LFLex Fridman15:42

       (laughs)

   18. ADAnn Druyan15:42

       We talked to it, in fact, a year ago, I think it was. We needed to slightly change the attitude of the spacecraft, and so we fired up its thrusters for the first time since 1987.

   19. LFLex Fridman15:56

       Did they work?

   20. ADAnn Druyan15:57

       Instantly.

   21. LFLex Fridman15:58

       (laughs)

   22. ADAnn Druyan15:58

       They... It was as if you had left your car in the garage-

   23. LFLex Fridman16:01

       Oh, wow.

   24. ADAnn Druyan16:01

       ... in 1987-

   25. LFLex Fridman16:03

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. ADAnn Druyan16:03

       ... and you put the key in the ignition because you used keys then in the ignition-

   27. LFLex Fridman16:08

       Yeah.

   28. ADAnn Druyan16:08

       ... and it turned over the first time you stepped on the gas.

   29. LFLex Fridman16:11

       Wow.

   30. ADAnn Druyan16:12

       And so that's the genius of the engineering-
6. 36:41 – 53:22

   Cosmos

   1. LFLex Fridman36:41

      I mean, you've spoken about, uh, a very specific voice that Cosmos had in, um, that it reveals the magical science. I think you said shamanic journey of it. And not the details or the latest breakthroughs or so on, just revealing the magic. Can you try to describe what this voice of Cosmos is with the, with the follow-up and the new Cosmos that you're working on now?

   2. ADAnn Druyan37:09

      Yes. Well, the dream of Cosmos is really, like, Einstein's quote, you know? It's the idea of the awesome power of science to be in absolutely everyone's hands, you know? It belongs to all of us. It's not the preserve of a priesthood. It's just as the community of science is becoming more diverse and being less exclusive than it was guilty of in the not so recent past, the discoveries of science, our understanding of the cosmos that we live in, has, uh, really grown by leaps and bounds. And probably we've learned more in the last 100 years about it. Uh, you know, the, the, the tempo of discovery has picked up so rapidly. And so, the idea of Cosmos from the 1970s when Carl and I and Steven Soter, another astronomer, first imagined it was that interweaving, not only of the scientific concepts and revelations and using, you know, cinematic VFX to take the viewer on this transporting, uplifting journey. But also, the stories of the searchers.

   3. LFLex Fridman38:36

      Mm-hmm.

   4. ADAnn Druyan38:36

      Because the more I have learned about, you know, the process of science through my life with Carl and since, the more I am really, uh, persuaded that it's that adherence to the facts, uh, and to that adherence to that little approximation, that little bit of reality that we've been able to get our hands around is something that we desperately need. And it doesn't matter if you are a scientist. In fact, the people, it- it matters even more if you're not. And since, uh, you know, the level of science teaching has been fairly or unfairly maligned, and the idea that once there was such a thing as a television network, which of course has now evolved into many other things, the idea that you could, in the most democratic way, make accessible to absolutely everyone, and most especially people who don't even realize that they have an interest in a subject or who feel so intimidated by the jargon of science and its kind of exclusive history, the idea that we could do this. And, you know, in season two of Cosmos: The Spacetime Odyssey, we were in 181 countries in the space of two weeks. It was the largest roll-out in television history-

   5. LFLex Fridman40:09

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ADAnn Druyan40:10

      ... which is really amazing for a ... There is no science-based programming-

   7. LFLex Fridman40:15

      By the way, just to clarify, this series was rolled out, so it was shown in, in not that many countries.

   8. ADAnn Druyan40:21

      It-

   9. LFLex Fridman40:21

      You said, "We were in, uh ..." (laughs)

   10. ADAnn Druyan40:23

       Well, our show-

   11. LFLex Fridman40:24

       The show. (laughs)

   12. ADAnn Druyan40:24

       ... was in 180 countries.

   13. LFLex Fridman40:25

       Yeah, the show.

   14. ADAnn Druyan40:26

       Yes.

   15. LFLex Fridman40:26

       Which is incredible. I mean, the, the, the hundreds of millions, whatever that number is of people that watched it, it's just, it's crazy.

   16. ADAnn Druyan40:33

       It's so crazy that, for instance, uh, my son had a cerebral hemorrhage a year ago. And the doctor who saved his life in a very, um, dangerous situation, when he realized that, you know, that Sam and I were who we were, he said, "That's why I'm here." You know? He said-

   17. LFLex Fridman41:01

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ADAnn Druyan41:01

       ... "If you come of age in a poor country like Colombia and Carl Sagan calls you to science when you're a child-"

   19. LFLex Fridman41:08

       Yeah.

   20. ADAnn Druyan41:09

       "... then, then, you know, you go into medicine because that's the only avenue open to you. But that's why I'm here." And I have heard that story and I hear that story, I think, every week.

   21. LFLex Fridman41:25

       (laughs)

   22. ADAnn Druyan41:25

       And-

   23. LFLex Fridman41:25

       How does that make you feel? I mean, I, the, the number of scientists, I mean, a lot of it is quiet, right? But the number of scientists Cosmos has created is just countless. I mean, it probably touched the lives of, I don't know, probably, like, it could be a crazy number, like 90% of scientists or something that had, have been signifi-

   24. ADAnn Druyan41:43

       I would love to do that census.

   25. LFLex Fridman41:45

       (laughs)

   26. ADAnn Druyan41:45

       Because I, uh, because that's the most, the greatest gratification, because that's the dream of science. And that's the whole idea is that if it belongs to all of us and not just a tiny few, then we have some chance of determining how it's used. And if it's only in the hands of people whose only, whose only interests are the balance sheet or hegemony over other nations or things like that, then it'll probably end up being a gun aimed at our heads. But if it's distributed in the widest possible way-

   27. LFLex Fridman42:27

       Mm-hmm.

   28. ADAnn Druyan42:28

       ... uh, a capability that we now have because of our technology, then the chance is that, um...... that it will be used with wisdom. That's, that's the dream of it. So, that's, w- that's why we did the first Cosmos. We wanted to take not just, as I say, the scientific information, but also tell the stories of these searchers, because for us and for me, i- in carrying on this series in the second and third seasons, the, the, the p- primary interest was that we wouldn't tell a story unless it was kind of a threefer.

   29. LFLex Fridman43:09

       (laughs)

   30. ADAnn Druyan43:09

       You know, it was not just a way to understand a new sci- uh, uh, scientific idea, but it was also a way to understand what... if it matters what's true-
7. 53:22 – 1:00:36

   Existential threats

   1. LFLex Fridman53:22

      So, do you worry about existential threats? Like, uh, you mentioned nuclear weapons. Do you-

   2. ADAnn Druyan53:28

      Sure.

   3. LFLex Fridman53:28

      ... worry about nuclear war?

   4. ADAnn Druyan53:30

      Yes.

   5. LFLex Fridman53:30

      And if you could also maybe comment, I don't know how much you've thought about it, but, uh, uh, well, there's folks like Elon Musk who are worried about the existential threats of artificial intelligence, sort of our robotic computer creations-

   6. ADAnn Druyan53:45

      Hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman53:45

      ... sort of, um-

   8. ADAnn Druyan53:46

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman53:47

      ... re- resulting in us humans losing control. So can you speak to the things that worry you in terms of existential concerns?

   10. ADAnn Druyan53:53

       Yeah. Uh, all of the above.

   11. LFLex Fridman53:55

       (laughs)

   12. ADAnn Druyan53:55

       (laughs) Uh, you'd have to be silly, you know, like n- not to think and not to look at, for instance, our, uh, rapidly burgeoning capability in artificial intelligence, not, and to see how sick, uh, so much of the planet is not to be concerned. And-

   13. LFLex Fridman54:17

       Sick as in evil potentially.

   14. ADAnn Druyan54:19

       Well, how m- how much cruelty and brutality-

   15. LFLex Fridman54:22

       Right.

   16. ADAnn Druyan54:22

       ... is, you know, happening at this very moment? And, uh, I would put climate change higher up on that list because I believe that there are unforeseen, uh, discoveries, uh, that we are making right now. For instance, all that methane that's coming out of the ocean floor that was-... sequestered because of the permafrost, which is now melting. Uh, you know, I think there are other effects besides our greed and short-term thinking, uh, you know, that we are triggering now with all the greenhouse gases we're putting into the atmosphere, and that worries me day and night. I think about it every single, every moment really, because I really think we- that's how we have to be. We have to begin to, uh, really focus on how grave the challenge is to our civilization and, uh, to the other species that are... It's a mass, uh, this is a mass extinction event that we're living through and we're seeing it, uh, we're seeing news of it every day.

   17. LFLex Fridman55:35

       So, what do you think about another touchy subject, but what do- what do you think about the politicization of science on topics like global warming, embryonic stem cell research, and other topics like it? What's your sense? Why?

   18. ADAnn Druyan55:49

       What do you mean by the politicization of global warming?

   19. LFLex Fridman55:52

       Meaning that if you say, "I think ex-" what you just said, which is, uh, global warming is a serious concern, it's human-caused-

   20. ADAnn Druyan56:02

       Right.

   21. LFLex Fridman56:02

       ... there will be some detrimental effects. Uh, currently, there is a large percent of the population of the United States that would, as opposed to listening to that statement, would immediately think, "Oh, that's just a liberal talking point."

   22. ADAnn Druyan56:20

       I- I think-

   23. LFLex Fridman56:20

       That's what I mean by politicized.

   24. ADAnn Druyan56:20

       ... that's not so true anymore. I don't think our problem is a population that's skeptical about, uh, climate change because I think that the extreme weather and fire events that we are experiencing with such frequency has really gotten to people. I think there are, uh, uh, I think that there are people in leadership positions-

   25. LFLex Fridman56:46

       Right.

   26. ADAnn Druyan56:47

       ... who choose to ignore it and to pretend it's not there, but ultimately, I think they will be rejected. I- the question is, will it be fast enough? Uh, but, you know, this, I don't, I think actually that most people have really finally taken the reality of global climate change to heart, and they look at their children and grandchildren and they don't feel good-

   27. LFLex Fridman57:16

       (laughs)

   28. ADAnn Druyan57:16

       ... because they come from a world which was, in many ways, in terms of climate, fairly familiar and benign, and they know that we're headed in another direction. And it's not just that, it's what we do to the oceans, the rivers, the air, you know? I mean, you ask me, like, "What is, what is the message of Cosmos?"

   29. LFLex Fridman57:39

       Right. (laughs)

   30. ADAnn Druyan57:39

       It's, it's that e- it's that we have to think in longer terms, you know? I think of the Soviet Union and the United States in the Cold War, and they're ready to kill each other over these two different views of the distribution of resources. But neither of them has a form of human social organization that thinks in terms of 100 years, let alone 1,000 years, which are the timescales that science speaks in. And that's part of the problem is that we have to get a grip on reality and where we're headed, and it's, I, I, I'm not fatalistic at all. Uh, but I do feel like, uh, you know, and in setting out to, to do this series, each season we were talking about climate change in the original Cosmos-
8. 1:00:36 – 1:04:22

   Origin of life

   1. LFLex Fridman1:00:36

      The, the beautiful complexity of human nature. There's a l- uh, speaking of which, let me ask (laughs) , um, a tough question, I guess, because, uh, there's so many possible answers, but what aspect of life here on Earth do you find most fascinating? From the origin of life, the evolutionary process itself, the origin of the human mind, so intelligence, the...... uh, some of the technological developments going on now, or us venturing out into space with space exploration? What just inspires you?

   2. ADAnn Druyan1:01:07

      Oh, they all inspire me.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:01:08

      Oh, yeah. That's- (laughs)

   4. ADAnn Druyan1:01:09

      Every one of those inspire me. But I have to say that, to me, uh, the origin of... As I've gotten older, to me, the origin of life has become less interesting.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:01:20

      Interesting. Wow.

   6. ADAnn Druyan1:01:21

      Because I feel... Well, not because it's more... I think I understand. I have a better grasp of how it might have happened.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:01:31

      Do you think it was a huge leap? So a m-

   8. ADAnn Druyan1:01:33

      I think it was a... We are a byproduct of geophysics-

   9. LFLex Fridman1:01:37

      (laughs)

   10. ADAnn Druyan1:01:38

       ... and I think it's not... I, I, I... My suspicion, of course, which is, you know, take it with a grain of salt.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:01:45

       Yeah.

   12. ADAnn Druyan1:01:45

       But my suspicion is that it happens more often-

   13. LFLex Fridman1:01:50

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ADAnn Druyan1:01:50

       ... and more places than we like to think, because, you know, after all the history of our thinking about ourselves has been a constant series of demotions-

   15. LFLex Fridman1:02:00

       (laughs) Right.

   16. ADAnn Druyan1:02:00

       ... in which we've had to realize, "No, no." So, to me, that's-

   17. LFLex Fridman1:02:05

       We're not at the center of the solar system.

   18. ADAnn Druyan1:02:06

       And the origin of consciousness is, to me, also not so amazing.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:02:10

       Oh.

   20. ADAnn Druyan1:02:11

       If you think of it as, you know, going back to these one-celled organisms of a billion years ago who, you know, had, had to know, "Well, if I go higher up, I'll get too much sun. And if I go lower down, I'll, I'll be protected from, you know, UV rays," things like that. They had to know that, or, "You, I eat. Me, I don't." I mean, even that, I can see, if you know that, then knowing what we know now is just... It's not so hard to fathom. It seems like... You know, there's... I, I've never believed there was a duality between our minds and our bodies.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:02:50

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ADAnn Druyan1:02:51

       And, uh, I think that every-

   23. LFLex Fridman1:02:52

       Even consciousness, all those, all those interesting things that just-

   24. ADAnn Druyan1:02:54

       All those things seem to me, except one of the things-

   25. LFLex Fridman1:02:58

       Byproducts of bio... Uh, of, uh, geo- geophysics. I love it. (laughs)

   26. ADAnn Druyan1:03:01

       Yeah. Well, chemica- chemistry, yes. Geochemistry, geophysics, absolutely, of, um... You know, it makes perfect sense to me, and it doesn't make it any less wondrous.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:03:11

       Yeah.

   28. ADAnn Druyan1:03:12

       It, it doesn't rob it at all of the wonder of it. And so, yeah, I think that's amazing. I think... You know, we tell the story of someone you have never heard of, I guarantee, and I think you're very knowledgeable on the subject, who was more responsible for our ability to venture out to other worlds than anyone else, and who was completely forgotten. And so those are the kinds of stories I like best for Cosmos because-

   29. LFLex Fridman1:03:45

       Well, can you tell me who? (laughs)

   30. ADAnn Druyan1:03:46

       No. I'm gonna make you watch this series.
9. 1:04:22 – 1:09:06

   Mortality

   1. ADAnn Druyan1:04:22

   2. LFLex Fridman1:04:22

      Do you ponder mortality?

   3. ADAnn Druyan1:04:25

      Yes.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:04:25

      Human mortality, and maybe even your own mortality?

   5. ADAnn Druyan1:04:29

      Oh, all the time. I just turned 70, so yeah, I think about it a lot. I, I mean, it's... You know, how can you not think about it? But, um-

   6. LFLex Fridman1:04:38

      What do you make of this short life of ours? I, I mean, let me ask it sort of another way. Uh, you've lost Carl, and speaking of mortality, if you could be... If you could choose immortality, you know, it's possible that science allows us to live much, much longer, is that something you would choose for yourself, for Carl, for you two?

   7. ADAnn Druyan1:05:05

      Well, for Carl, definitely. I would have-

   8. LFLex Fridman1:05:07

      For you two together?

   9. ADAnn Druyan1:05:07

      You know, in a, in a nanosecond, I would take that deal. But not for me. I mean, if Carl were alive, yes, I would want to live forever-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:05:15

       (laughs)

   11. ADAnn Druyan1:05:15

       ... because then I know it would be fun. But, uh, no, I don't want-

   12. LFLex Fridman1:05:19

       Would it be fun forever?

   13. ADAnn Druyan1:05:21

       I don't know.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:05:21

       That's the essential nature of the-

   15. ADAnn Druyan1:05:22

       I don't know. It's just that the universe is so full of so many wonderful things to discover that it feels like it would be fun.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:05:31

       (laughs)

   17. ADAnn Druyan1:05:31

       But no, I don't want to live forever. I, I have had a magical life. I just... My, you know, my craziest dreams have come true. And I feel... You know, I... Forgive me, but this crazy, uh, quirk of fate that put my most joyful, deepest feelings, feelings that decades later, 42 years later, I know how real, how true those feelings were, everything that happened after that was an affirmation of how true those feelings were. And so I don't feel that way. I feel like I have gotten so much more than my share. Um, not just my extraordinary life with Carl, my family, my parents, my children, my friends, the places that I've been able to explore, the, the, the books I've read, the music I've heard. So, I feel like, you know, it would be much better if instead of working on the immortality of the lucky few, of the most privileged people in the society, I would really like to see a concerted effort for us to get us our act together. You know? That, to me, is topic A. More pressing, uh, you know, this possible world...... is the challenge. And we're at a kind of a moment where if we can, we can make that choice. So immortality doesn't really interest me.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:07:13

       (laughs)

   19. ADAnn Druyan1:07:14

       I, I really, I love nature and I have to say that I, I, because I'm a product of nature, I recognize that it's, it's great gifts and it's great cruelty.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:07:29

       Well, I don't think there's a better way to end it, Ann. Thank you so much for talking. It was an honor.

   21. ADAnn Druyan1:07:34

       Oh, it was wonderful.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:07:35

       I really appreciate it.

   23. ADAnn Druyan1:07:35

       Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:07:36

       (laughs)

   25. ADAnn Druyan1:07:36

       I thought your questions were great.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:07:38

       Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ann Druyan, and thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App. Download it, use code LEXPODCAST, you'll get $10, and $10 will go to FIRST, an organization that inspires and educates young minds to become science and technology innovators of tomorrow. If you enjoyed this podcast, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcast, support on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @LexFriedman. And now, let me leave you with some words of wisdom from Carl Sagan: "What an astonishing thing a book is. It's a flat object, made from a tree, with flexible parts, on which are imprinted lots of funny, dark squiggles. But one glance at it, and you're inside the mind of another person, maybe somebody dead for thousands of years. Across the millennia, an author is speaking clearly and silently inside your head, directly to you. Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people who never knew each other, citizens of distant epochs. Books break the shackles of time. A book is proof that humans are capable of working magic." Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

Episode duration: 1:09:11