Annaka Harris: Free Will, Consciousness, and the Nature of Reality | Lex Fridman Podcast #326

1. 0:00 – 0:53

   Introduction

   1. AHAnnaka Harris0:00

      When we use the term free will, we're talking about this feeling that consciousness, that- that- that we have a self that is... There's this concrete thing that's separate from brain processing that somehow swoops in and is the- the cause of our decision or the cause of our next action. And that is, in large part, if not in its entirety, an illusion.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:24

      The following is a conversation with Annika Harris, author of Conscious: A Brief Guide to the Fundamental Mystery of the Mind, and is someone who writes and thinks a lot about the nature of consciousness and of reality, especially from the perspectives of physics and neuroscience. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the descriptions. And now, dear friends, here's Annika Harris.

2. 0:53 – 54:10

   Free will

   1. LFLex Fridman0:53

      In your book Conscious, you described evidence that free will is an illusion, and that consciousness is used to construct this illusion and convince ourselves that we are in fact deciding our actions. Uh, can you... Can you explain this? I think this is chapter three.

   2. AHAnnaka Harris1:07

      First of all, I- I really think it's important to make a distinction between free will and conscious will, and we'll get into that in a moment. So free will, in terms of our brain as a system in nature making complex decisions and doing all of the complex processing it does, there is a decision-making process in nature that our brains undergo, um, that we can call free will. That's- that's fine to use that shorthand for that. Although once- once we get into the details, I- I might, um, convince you that it's not so free, but that... The decision-making process is a process in nature. The feeling, our conscious experience of feeling like consciousness is the thing that is driving the behavior. That is, I would say, in most cases an illusion, and usually when we talk about free will, that's the thing we're talking about. I mean, som- sometimes it's in conjunction with the decision-making process, but for the most part, when we use the term free will, we're talking about this feeling, that consciousness, that- that- that we have a self, that this... There's this concrete thing that's separate from brain processing that somehow swoops in and is the- the cause of our decision or the cause of our next action. And that is, um, in large part, if not in its entirety, an illusion.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:29

      So conscious will is an illusion, and then we can try to figure out-

   4. AHAnnaka Harris2:33

      Free will, I would say, is- is good shorthand for a process in nature, which is a decision-making process of- of the brain.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:40

      But decisions are still being made. So there's, um, uh, if you ran the universe over again-

   6. AHAnnaka Harris2:48

      Hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:49

      ... is there... Would it turn out the same way? I mean, maybe... I'm trying to sneak up to, like, what does it mean to make a decision in a way that's almost, uh, that means something? (laughs)

   8. AHAnnaka Harris3:01

      So, right. So this is where intuitions get challenged. I've been thinking about some new examples for this, just because I talk about it a lot, and- and the truth is, most of the things I write about and talk about and think about are so counterintuitive. I mean, that- that's really what my game is, is breaking intuitions, shaking up intuitions in order to get a deeper understanding o- of reality. I'm often, even though I've thought about this for 20 years and think about it all the time, it's an obsession of mine, really, I have to get back into that mind frame to be able to think clearly about it, because it is so counterintuitive.

   9. LFLex Fridman3:38

      How long does that take?

   10. AHAnnaka Harris3:39

       (laughs) It depends.

   11. LFLex Fridman3:40

       How hard is that?

   12. AHAnnaka Harris3:41

       Depends on if there are kids around or if I'm alone or if I've been meditating, but what I was going to say, actually, I felt like we- we needed to just take one step back and talk a little bit, just because I think the- the importance of shaking up intuitions for scientific and advancement is such an important piece of the scientific process, um, and I think we've reached a point in consciousness studies where it's very difficult to move forward. And usually that's a sign that we need to start shaking up our intuition. So, you know, throughout history, the huge breakthroughs, the things that have really shifted our view of the universe and- and our place in the universe and all of that, those almost always, if not always, require that we, at the very least, shift our intuitions, um, update our intuitions. But many of them, we just have to let go of intuitions that are feeding us false information about the way the world works.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:39

       Well, the weirdest thing here is that here we're looking at our own mind.

   14. AHAnnaka Harris4:44

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:44

       So you have to, uh, let go of your intuitions about your own intuitions.

   16. AHAnnaka Harris4:51

       Yeah. Right, exactly. It's very meta, and makes it hard. And it's part of the reason why doing interviews, for me, feels so difficult, aside from the fact that I just have social anxiety in general.

   17. LFLex Fridman5:04

       Well, it's good, 'cause I took mushrooms just before we started.

   18. AHAnnaka Harris5:07

       (laughs) Perfect. That's what I should have done.

   19. LFLex Fridman5:08

       So we're in this (laughs) ... We're in this journey together. Let's go. Uh, so where- where- where do we take a step backwards to?

   20. AHAnnaka Harris5:14

       Well, I was just... I was going to say, I mean, this leads into the point I was going to make, but what I was going to say is, I mean, also, just for me, I feel like I... I'm not as good at speaking as I am at writing, that I'm- I'm clear in my writing. And because these topics are so difficult to get our minds around, um, it's hard to kind of get to any real conclusion in real time. It's actually how I started writing my book, um, was just writing for myself. I decided that I needed to spend some time writing down all of my thoughts in order to get clear about how I think about them.

   21. LFLex Fridman5:50

       So you write down a sentence, and you think. You s- In the- in the silence and the quiet-

   22. AHAnnaka Harris5:55

       Paragraphs.

   23. LFLex Fridman5:56

       Paragraphs.

   24. AHAnnaka Harris5:56

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:56

       And you- and you just-

   26. AHAnnaka Harris5:58

       And then I see if that makes sense, and then I check it with my intuitions, which is really the scientific process. And I really... In many ways, I feel like I'm a physicist at heart. All of my inquiry, all of my career, everything I'm interested in, actually going back to being a child, is just...... deep curiosity about how the world works, what this place is, what it's made of, how we got here, um, just being amazed at the fact that I'm having an experience over here, and you're having one over there, and we're in this moment of time, and, you know, what does that all mean? My interest in consciousness really came out of originally an interest in physics. And I- and I guess the- the two were always side-by-side, and I didn't really connect them until I was older. But, um, I've always been really interested in just understanding the nature of reality, um, before I even had language to- to describe it.

   27. LFLex Fridman6:54

       Yeah. You talked about sort of laying down and looking up at the stars and-

   28. AHAnnaka Harris6:59

       Hmm. Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman7:00

       ... sort of trying to let go of the intuition that there's a ground below us-

   30. AHAnnaka Harris7:04

       Yeah. Yeah.
3. 54:10 – 1:24:42

   Consciousness

   1. AHAnnaka Harris54:10

      So, I think we should probably get into some of the details of why I think, um, we're confused about what consciousness is.

   2. LFLex Fridman54:15

      Yes.

   3. AHAnnaka Harris54:16

      But just to, to finish this point, I think that we don't actually have any evidence that consciousness is complex, that it comes out of complex processing, that it's required for complex processing. And I think we've made this anthropomorphic mistake because we are conscious, and it's very hard to f- to get evidence. Um, it's one of the things that makes consciousness unique and mysterious, and why I'm fascinated with it, is it's the one thing in nature that we can't get conclusive evidence of from the outside. We can by analogy. You know, you're behaving, m- basically the same way I behave, more or less. Um, you talk about your conscious experiences, and therefore, I just extrapolate from that, that you're having a felt experience in the way I am, and, and we can do that throughout nature.Well, there's no physical evidence. There's nothing we can observe from the outside that will g- give us conclusive proof that consciousness is there. And so, I think we've made this leap to... Because we're conscious and because we're unique and special and, um, complex and intelligent in the way that we are, and because we don't have an intuition that anything else is conscious, or we have no feedback about it, we've made this assumption that consciousness... That those things aren't conscious, and felt experience does not exist out there in, in other atoms, and, and forms of life even, but especially not inanimate objects. Um, and therefore, consciousness is somehow tied to these other things that make us unique, that consciousness arises when there is this complex processing, when there is... And there's... We can talk about the evolution argument too, which I think is super interesting to get into, and I'm hoping to talk to Richard Dawkins, um, about this for my series.

   4. LFLex Fridman56:16

      What do you think about consciousness?

   5. AHAnnaka Harris56:18

      He's not interested (laughs) . He's not interested, and actually, the conversation I would have with him would be very brief, because he's, he's just not that interested in this topic.

   6. LFLex Fridman56:26

      Oh.

   7. AHAnnaka Harris56:26

      But let's go back to the Richard Dawkins piece 'cause there's... I feel like there's a lot to talk about here in terms of our intuitions about consciousness-

   8. LFLex Fridman56:33

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAnnaka Harris56:33

      ... what it's doing, why in my book and, you know, everywhere I talk about consciousness, I bring it back to these two questions that I think are at the heart of our intuitions about consciousness. And so, your questions about whether human beings are unique and special, and all of that, um, I think are interesting questions and, and something we could talk about. I see them as separate questions from the consciousness question.

   10. LFLex Fridman56:55

       So, you see consciousness as giving a felt experience to our uniqueness, as opposed to the uniqueness giving birth to consciousness?

   11. AHAnnaka Harris57:03

       Yes, and that potentially, there is felt experience, even though it sounds crazy even to me, that there is felt experience in all matter. And at this point in my thinking and after a few conversations with some physicists, I think, if consciousness is fundamental, the only thing that actually makes sense is that it is part of the most fundamental, um, that spacetime and everything else emerges out of, that-

   12. LFLex Fridman57:30

       Out of consciousness.

   13. AHAnnaka Harris57:30

       ... felt experience is, is, is just part of the fabric of reality.

   14. LFLex Fridman57:35

       So, is it possible to intuit this? Can we start by thinking about dogs and cats, go to plants-

   15. AHAnnaka Harris57:41

       Hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman57:41

       ... and then going all the way to matter? Or is this going to be like modern physics, where it's just going to be impossible to even, uh, in, in the, the... through our reason alone?

   17. AHAnnaka Harris57:50

       Hmm.

   18. LFLex Fridman57:50

       Like, we're gonna have to have s- tools of some kind.

   19. AHAnnaka Harris57:52

       I think, I think it'll be a little bit of both. I mean, I think the science has a very long way to go. And the truth is, I don't even think we can get to the science yet, because we have to do this work. And this is why I'm so passionate about this work. Um, and it's really, it's really taking hold. I mean, there are scientists, neuroscientists and physicists interested in consciousness, and kind of having gotten over the initial obstacle of wrestling with these intuitions, so that it's now being talked about in a serious way, which was the first huge hurdle. But I think a lot more of that has to happen, a lot more of the intuition breaking from the science we already have. I mean, I think we almost need to catch our intuitions up to what we, we already know, um, and then continue to break through these intuitions systematically, so that we can really think more clearly about consciousness. Um, there are a couple of, um, scientists now working on theories of consciousness which do go... They don't quite go to the fundamental level, but they go extremely deep, um, so that something like an electron might be conscious under their theory. This is, um, Integrated Information Theory, IIT, with Christof Koch and Giulio Tononi. Um, I've spoken to, to both of them. I spoke to, um, Christof Koch, uh, once or twice for, for this project I'm working on now. Um, what they're working on is incredibly interesting to me, and I think very important work. Um, however, I think they are also really led by some false intuitions about self and free will, and I think-

   20. LFLex Fridman59:40

       Ooh. Like what?

   21. AHAnnaka Harris59:40

       ... that will be a limit to their work. So, we can get into that, but, um-

   22. LFLex Fridman59:44

       Let's go. Let's-

   23. AHAnnaka Harris59:45

       We will, we will. (laughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman59:46

       Christof Koch-

   25. AHAnnaka Harris59:46

       S- let me just complete my thought.

   26. LFLex Fridman59:47

       ... is awesome. Oh, yes, uh-

   27. AHAnnaka Harris59:48

       Which is that-

   28. LFLex Fridman59:49

       (laughs)

   29. AHAnnaka Harris59:51

       ... what they're working on, I think, is the most important next step forward, which is just even being open to the fact that consciousness goes as deep as particles.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:00:00

       And being rigorous with it.
4. 1:24:42 – 1:37:59

   Depression

   1. AHAnnaka Harris1:24:42

   2. LFLex Fridman1:24:42

      If we can jump around a little bit, can I just ask you on a, on a personal note, because you said you've suffered from depression and there, there's a lot of people that see guidance on, on this topic because it's such a difficult one. How were you able to, when it was, when it has struck you, how were you able to overcome it?

   3. AHAnnaka Harris1:24:59

      Yeah. I mean, this is maybe too long an answer. So, I've experienced it in different forms. So, it was my, I would say my depression has almost always mostly taken the form of anxiety. I didn't realize how anxious I was, I think until I was an adult. So, I was always very functional. Um, I think, you know, all the positive sides of suffering in that way (laughs) . Um, I think I'm a little OCD, as, as you can tell (laughs) .

   4. LFLex Fridman1:25:32

      I mean, this whole conversation-

   5. AHAnnaka Harris1:25:33

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:25:33

      ... is hilarious because we're both suffer-

   7. AHAnnaka Harris1:25:35

      (laughs) .

   8. LFLex Fridman1:25:35

      ... to some level of anxiety.

   9. AHAnnaka Harris1:25:37

      Psychology is just laid out in front of us here (laughs) .

   10. LFLex Fridman1:25:39

       Yeah. It's just a giant mess. It's great.

   11. AHAnnaka Harris1:25:41

       We're the same kind of human. Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:25:42

       It's great.

Episode duration: 2:39:40