Chris Duffin: The Mad Scientist of Strength | Lex Fridman Podcast #207

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Chris Duffin, the mad scientist of strength. He's one of the strongest people in the world, but is also an engineer of some of the most innovative strength equipment I've ever seen. Check out his company, Kabuki Strength. He's the only person who squatted and deadlifted 1,000 pounds for multiple reps, and achieved many other amazing feats of strength. He has lived one hell of a life of hardship and triumph, as he writes about in his book called The Eagle and the Dragon. Quick mention of our sponsors: Headspace, Magic Spoon, Sun Basket, and Ladder. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I was always a fan of strength, both power lifting and Olympic weightlifting, both as a fan and practitioner. Mostly, I'm a fan of people who are willing to put in years of hard work towards finding out what the limits of their body is, and then smashing past those limits, people like Chris Duffin, or on the Olympic weightlifting side, people like Dmitry Klokov. That guy's great. This is why I love watching the Olympics, both the heartbreaks and the triumphs. They all reveal the incredible heights that the human mind and the human body can reach. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Chris Duffin.

Lex Fridman 1:28 You've been a part of several incredible feats of strength. Which was the hardest, or maybe one you're most proud of?

Chris Duffin 1:37 Definitely the one I'm most proud of is that journey for the, the grand goals. It was, like, a five-year scope that I chased this, and so when you think about training, it took more than five years. Obviously, by that point, I'd been training for over 25 years. But it makes me pr- I mean, there was three distinct things that I wanted to accomplish out of this, so it was really thought out. Um, and this was kind of my exit pro- from being a, a competitive lifter.

Lex Fridman 2:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 2:06 And basically saying, "Hey, I'm gonna be, you know, an Instagram lifter, an e- uh, exhibition lifter, a whatever." I've done this for 16 years. I was number one in the world for, like, eight years straight, all-time world records, and I'm like, "I'm not gonna do that anymore." What I want to do is just something deep down to me that is really important. And there's three things that were driving this, and this is a five-year journey that I, that I went through to do this. I really wanted to showcase that you could do something that is well beyond the scope of what people think is humanly possible. So just this inspiration thing, this grand, over-the-top, like if you set your mind to a single-minded goal, you can go so much further. And I didn't even say what the goal was upfront, because it was so far out there I would've been laughed at. And that's, I- I- I think big goals should be kept pretty damn close-

Lex Fridman 2:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 2:59 ... uh, to start with, for that reason too. Um, but, and then the second piece was to, to, to walk the walk. To show, like, the principles of what I believed in around human movement. Um, the ability to manage and control the spinal mechanics and the output that can have on the body. And so I wanted to take the two most basic movements that every able-bodied person should be able to do. So fundamental movement patterns. The squat, which is, like, in the developmental approaches, around nine months as a baby from a developmental kinesiology, uh, standpoint, and-

Lex Fridman 3:31 (laughs) .

Chris Duffin 3:31 ... a really basic pattern that m- every able-bodied person should be able to master. The other one being the hip hinge, being able to pick something up off the ground. A deadlift.

Lex Fridman 3:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 3:40 And I wanted to do those two, not just one, because I wanted to show the principles, that I wasn't, uh, built for one. I wasn't a specialist because of my lever links, torso links, all that, any outliers, because nobody had ever done a 1,000-pound squat, so this is it, is ... and 1,000-pound deadlift. It was outside of the scope of what anybody's ... There's like half a dozen people that have done one or the other, but nobody's ever done both. And I wanted to do something unique. I wanted to do them, not only do it, but do 'em for reps, to leave literally no question out there, and there's no competition for that. Uh, so it was, "This is what I'm gonna go do." And, uh, to pull it off, I had some past issues with my elbows and stuff that I couldn't work around, so I had to wear, uh, straps, which was another reason I did- couldn't do it in the competition setting. Um, so the first year I worked up and I did 1,002-pound deadlift. We, plates were weighed afterwards, it was a couple, little bit over. And I did it for almost three reps, and that still stands as Guinness World Record, the- just the one rep does-

Lex Fridman 4:52 (laughs) .

Chris Duffin 4:53 ... is the most weight ever sumo deadlifted. And one other person has deadlifted 1,000 for reps at this point, and that was, uh, Thor Bjornsson, uh, from Game of Thrones. He's done 1,000 for a double as well, so.

Lex Fridman 5:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 5:05 Then the next four years ... And I did a bunch of feats of strength on the way, but it was all about building that axial loading capacity, the strength that ... 'Cause now I'm moving the weight from my hands up to my shoulders.

Lex Fridman 5:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 5:16 And so to do it for reps is, like, so much harder than a single. Like, 5 to 10 seconds versus 30-plus seconds to be able to buffer and manage all that, with that kind of load, is just crazy, so.

Lex Fridman 5:31 It's literally about the duration that your body is carrying the load.

Chris Duffin 5:34 Yeah, that's a big part of it. Yeah. Because you have to ... You're using the, the resource of the diaphragm for stabilization, and so it, it's also responsible for respiration and all this other stuff, so even when you're not squatting, you've got to be handling those loads.

Lex Fridman 5:48 Just holding that weight is fascinating. It's like, it's fascinating that the human body can do that, can-... can maintain that structure, just everything working together, that the biology, the skeletal structure, the, the musculature on top of that can hold the weight.

Chris Duffin 6:04 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:05 It's fascinating to watch.

Chris Duffin 6:06 Everything is very intentful about positioning and how you're creating pressure and all that sort of stuff, especially for me. So when I mention that half a dozen people have squatted it and half a dozen people have deadlifted it, you understand those people all weigh 380 to 440 pounds.

Lex Fridman 6:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 6:21 I weighed 265 to 285, depending on the, where I was between the two. Uh, so there's that as well, right? So big, big difference. And, uh, over the course of that, I did a bu- a lot of other s- feats of strength that fit in that, uh, capacity, and we can skip over those, but that was hugely invested as far as, you know, (laughs) what I put into being able to accomplish that. 'Cause it's, it's over the top, which means the other stuff had to, to shift and I had to learn so- like, there's so many things that came into place to pull that off. And so yeah, last March, two days before the world shut down, I did it. It was supposed to be at the largest equipment exhibition in the world, down in San Diego, uh, as an event, and that got shut down a week beforehand obviously, so we moved to, "Let's do it at my gym and invite people." And that was on a Saturday, and Thursday or Friday they limited it to 25 people for gatherings. I did it on Saturday, and then Monday everything shut down.

Lex Fridman 7:17 (laughs) Wow.

Chris Duffin 7:18 So it was kind of surreal for-

Lex Fridman 7:19 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 7:19 ... timing-wise, right? And so if I hadn't done it, it woulda never got done.

Lex Fridman 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 7:24 Like, 'cause I, I'd pushed to the limit. I couldn't come back and do it. It was at the total limitation of my capabilities, so-

Lex Fridman 7:30 So-

Chris Duffin 7:30 ... I'm pretty, I'm pretty proud of it. Oh, and the last piece was, uh, every one of these feats along the way, I collaborated with a charity that I believed in, and there was a lot of those tied into my life story-

Lex Fridman 7:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 7:42 ... uh, which, um, we probably will get into.

Lex Fridman 7:44 Yes.

Chris Duffin 7:44 Um, so it was three-fold. So that inspiration piece, inspiration, motivation, walking the walk and showing, like, just the- these methodologies that a guy that had to learn to walk again can do something like this with no back pain, if you, if you ... that it- there is a way. And the third one is, is to provide awareness and recognition around a lot of, um, key charities, so.

Lex Fridman 8:10 So your heart was in this journey, but also your mind. It's just, you're like a scholar of strength, a scientist of strength, an engineer of strength. For reps, do 1,000 pounds squat and deadlift. Let's first talk through the actual day you did it. Wha- what does it take to lift that much for reps?

Chris Duffin 8:32 The day of is really easy. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 8:36 (laughs) Really?

Chris Duffin 8:37 The, the lift itself, other than a few seconds, is really easy and not challenging. People always ask me, "What was it like? How beat up were you after that in the deadlift?" And the simple fact is, it was easy. The work to get there was horrendous, so.

Lex Fridman 8:56 So even the psychology of the day, you weren't-

Chris Duffin 8:59 E-

Lex Fridman 8:59 There was not a fear, there was not a nervousness, there was not a doubt in your mind?

Chris Duffin 9:03 Uh, there were certainly doubts on that day, um, from some training history. So there was some major breaks to my confidence in the couple months leading up, where I had issues with passing out under the bar.

Lex Fridman 9:17 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 9:17 So completely losing consciousness, and this was on weight less than 1,000 pounds even. So that was like all this buildup and me going, "What if?"

Lex Fridman 9:28 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 9:28 "What if it ... I think I have this resolved, but what if I get up there and I can't even do a rep? How embarrassing will this be that I've been talking about this and planning for this for so long?" But outside of that, I knew I could do it. In fact, I wanted to do even more, even up to the, the second rep. Training is about, uh, you know, working into a fatigued state, so you're building, uh, an amount of fatigue in your system, and then when you let off of it, that's when you get a compensation, and that's how you stair step training. This is periodization. But leading into a big event, you're accumulating this massive amount of fatigue. And so I was performing at a level that I could do it, and so I knew I was gonna be able to on m- because then you, then you give yourself that window to be able to recover and super compensate and be able to do a little bit more. So like that first rep when I did it, strength-wise, I went, "I can do this for five reps."

Lex Fridman 10:26 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 10:26 Like, it went through my head.

Lex Fridman 10:27 That was the feeling?

Chris Duffin 10:28 I'm like, I mean, it was easy and it was fast.

Lex Fridman 10:30 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 10:30 And it felt, like, amazing. And I'm like, "I'm gonna crush this." And then set, rep two, uh, the realization kicked in as like, "Oh, this is for reps with 1,000 pounds on your back."

Lex Fridman 10:41 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 10:41 And you're fatiguing just like ... And then the third one was every last thing I could muster to just finish, I mean, and I just barely got it done, because it's-

Lex Fridman 10:51 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 10:51 The strength is like there, but like that capacity-

Lex Fridman 10:54 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 10:54 ... to be able to manage all those resources for that amount of time, 'cause it's not just leg strength when we're talking about this stuff,

Chris Duffin 11:01 so.

Lex Fridman 11:01 What does it take to go from the (laughs) from I don't know what nu- like from 500 to 1,000? That feels like a journey that's like exponential. It's mu- it seems like way harder-

Chris Duffin 11:13 It is. It gets exponentially harder. It does. In the early 2000s, like I said, I started lifting in 1988, um, but my first meet in the early 2000s, my, my max deadlift, uh, was 523 and my first squat was 550, so, uh, for any reference.

Lex Fridman 11:30 Guys, it's a heck of a journey. Okay.

Chris Duffin 11:31 It is a journey. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 11:33 For people that are, like to lift, what should they understand about the difference between doing 500 and 1,000, in terms of the actual lift that you were experiencing that day, in terms of the mechanics, in terms of all the things you have to be, like the neurological adaptation you mentioned, the breathing, the core strength? What, like techniques, like little tricks-

Chris Duffin 11:54 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 11:54 ... psychological tricks, anything that kind of stands out to you?

Chris Duffin 11:58 The level of intent and the opportunity for error are at a different level. So, just the minutest changes of position by quarter inch, half inch can be make or break-

Lex Fridman 12:11 Wow.

Chris Duffin 12:12 ... at that level. So these things, everything gets amplified. So the ability to, to start with having the, the pelvis just in the right orientation to the diaphragm before we start initiating what we call the, the eccentric loading of the abdominal cavity to create this intra-abdominal pressure of working against this outward expansion, working against the outer sheath of abdominal, thoracolumbar musculature, obliques, um, causing the co-contraction at the pelvic floor. All this stuff and how you cue that, 'cause you can't think about all this stuff, you need to break it down and distill and practice to, like, it's one simple cue, that we now lock down and control this torso stability. Because this is what these fundamental movements are about, is being able to control our spinal mechanics and then now be able to maintain that while articulating the joints around that through a range of motion. Uh, and then using the main power drivers, so in this instance, both instances it's the, you know, the hip complex, to generate that power and transfer it from how we're rooted and connected to the floor through to the distal end, you know, which would be the barbell on the shoulder. You know, there's couple key concepts. So one is that, what we just talked through is how to actually maintain that stability. So if you have either the diaphragm, so, uh, which is connected at the ribcage, so out of alignment in any position, it needs to be in alignment with the pelvic f- uh, the pelvis. So, those two in opposition. So this is simple engineering here.

Lex Fridman 13:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 13:47 Um, because what we're gonna do is eccentrically load this. We're gonna use the diaphragm, just like you would in a diaphragm pump-

Lex Fridman 13:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 13:54 ... where it's gonna press down on all the tissue in there, so we're not using breath.

Lex Fridman 13:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 13:58 So our breath was actually a lot of times a default pattern when people do that, because they'll bring it into their chest and raise, uh, their ribcage. So, um, what we wanna do is just initiate the diaphragm. Air can be used as well over the top at the final to create just a little bit more downward pressure. But if we have out of alignment there, we have, uh, a sp- a pressure, it leak, where it's gonna be pushed out the front or the rear if you're either in flexion or extension. All right? And then that causes this co-contraction and all this pressure of, of, of, uh, the organs essentially against, outward against all those tissue for the co-contraction, as well as surrounding the spine to be able to stabilize that. And then it puts all the muscles on both sides of the body in what we call the, the, the best length-tension relationship.

Lex Fridman 14:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 14:47 So, if you think about a curl and we reach our arm out, at the extended length our bicep is not as strong, and then all the way in the curl position it's not as strong. There's somewhere in here that's-

Lex Fridman 14:57 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 14:57 ... this control of both. And so when you're sitting there arched or bent over, we have muscles that are past either one of those ranges, so they've got a lot of tension which then will create relaxation on the other side, right? So we wanna have... And all of that needs to be working.

Lex Fridman 15:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 15:12 And now the next important thing is the foot. So it's actually this connection to the ground and how we're actually using the foot and ankle complex to grab and grip this connection to the ground and elicit, uh, an effect. And because of this and then the everything between will naturally kind of do what it needs to do. So people like to focus on knee, knee position or how far out their hips are or all this other stuff, uh, which is outputs of this. So if we control the torso and the knee, the only thing that can happen from that point is for the squat to happen. All right? Um, so this allows us to use this massive f- you know, the hip complex for all the muscles around that that are built to drive through hip extension to complete the squat. I did actually miss one thing in there. So this torso, people often miss, um, the lat is a spinal stabilizer as well.

Lex Fridman 16:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 16:11 So that's key in controlling, uh, function at the, the, uh, TL junction, um, which is, um, just above the, the lumbar spine, so kind of right opposite, uh, where your sternum is. And you'll see people kind of roll over sometimes like in an Olympic squat or something like that where they lose position, um, and that's often because they're close grip because you can't engage the lats very well that way and they're pushing up in the bar. But you wanna be able to drive and pull the bar to your center, and that's gonna create and use the lats now to drive and connect the shoulder into this, and we're kind of congressing and tightening all this stuff towards that center to create that entire torso stability. That's why I was using torso stability, not just core stability, uh, in my conversation earlier.

Lex Fridman 16:52 Torso stability. Okay, so there's all these, like, modules-

Chris Duffin 16:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 16:56 ... of the body, then connected to the grounding with, like, your feet on the ground. Everything you're speaking to, how do you work each of those modules? Is this over time you kind of develop the feel that ultimately boils down to this one simple cue that you mentioned? Or do you... Can you, like, literally study each particular module in yourself and see how it affects the lift?

Chris Duffin 17:20 So the best way, and I believe in s- 'cause I hate just, like, people getting out and just doing just movement stuff and not actually adding load. Because we only adapt when there's load. Maybe we can get some, you know, some proprioception or awareness of position and other stuff doing some, some corrective patterns and other stuff. But this is basic physiology, is that there must be an imposed demand for us to have adaptation. And this is mental, this is emotional, this is c- all these areas, um, but...And, and people miss that. So I prefer to be able to look at a person, and this is our, our methodology, and do the assessment in any basic loaded movement. So with developing an eye for that, you can actually see and go, "Okay, we've got a fault pattern right here in the foot," and use a cue or a set of cues, doesn't really matter till we find the one that works, and bring that, and now we know. We want to simplify this. The stuff I just walked through, that sounds really complicated, and it, it is if we try to break down and distill it all, but, like, let's just find the basic stuff that gets us in the range, start working, and then find the next as we add load.

Lex Fridman 18:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 18:25 Now we find where's our next area that we're starting to fault at? And then go there again next. So this is what we do, what we teach in our educational platform. So we are the only, I believe, everybody wants to do a lot of these, like, uh, assessments-

Lex Fridman 18:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 18:39 ... you know, on a bench, on a table, body, and, and it's like, no, let's, let's go squat, let's go deadlift. If you do strongman and it's a yoke carry, let's yoke carry, 'cause these are basic human fundamentals. This is not powerlifting.

Lex Fridman 18:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 18:49 Like, this is how we function. This is why we, we work with 29 of the 30 Major League Baseball teams, and 90% of all professional sports out there, uh, in North America, sorry, although we do some work with Tour de France and other stuff as well. Um, and, uh, North America, I do mean hockey too. Uh... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:06 Great.

Chris Duffin 19:06 But, uh, these principles of, like, you know, if, if the Dodgers w- bring us in, they're not learning how to powerlift.

Lex Fridman 19:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 19:14 You know, we're gonna, you know, obviously we'll probably be, do, we do a little bit more, uh, shoulder focus than hip focus with their athletes or their coaches. We're usually working with the coaches, not the athletes.

Lex Fridman 19:23 And so you help them, and then the same thing on yourself, uh, to understand the role that these different muscle groups have-

Chris Duffin 19:30 Yes.

Lex Fridman 19:30 ... on the holistic list.

Chris Duffin 19:32 Yeah, so it's all about getting the joints in the appropriate position so that we can, that we can manage loads so that we're not putting undue stress in the joint, we're getting the proper length tension, we're getting these basic fundamental things with the body. And so the, the largest global impact that you will have is through spinal mechanics. I can't look at a shoulder if I'm not managing this, 'cause it's your spine. So for those that are just listening, like, I'm arching and then, and then flexing. Um, that's gonna affect shoulder extension, flexion, all these sorts of things. So it could even affect things down to what's looking at dorsiflexion issues on the foot, like, and then that's why I go to the foot next, because it has the second-largest global impact. And then from there, now I'm gonna look at the big energy drivers, which is the hip complex, shoulder complex. And then we can start looking at kind of the peripheral things, but usually that's some sort of output of the other, but the knees, the elbows, the things like that. So it's all about getting the stack, which affects neurology. So let's talk in engineering terms. You get in a car, modern car today, and a lot of them will have this traction control button in there, and there's a big misconception that, you know, I'm, I'm out and it's, it's snowy, or here in Austin only rainy, well, it probably doesn't rain much, but you're going around a corner, it starts slipping. It's like, oh, it's gonna send the powers from the wheels that are slipping to the ones that are gripping-

Lex Fridman 20:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 20:50 ... and keep me from crashing and dying a fiery death.

Lex Fridman 20:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 20:54 Well, that's not how it works. It's the exact same. We've got, we've got the, we've got the tires, which are our foot, you know, the connection to the ground, right? We've got the power driver, which is, you know, the, the engine, the transmission delivering, you know, the power through it. Uh, we've got the stability, our suspension, and then we have the neurology. And what the neurology is doing, it's sensing that we don't have good stability or a loss of connection somewhere, and so I need to save you from crashing and hurting yourself.

Lex Fridman 21:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 21:27 And so it goes to the engine and says, "Let's retard the timing, let's reduce the shift patterns," and we're just reducing the power output.

Lex Fridman 21:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 21:35 And that's straight how the human body works. So when I do this stuff, it's actually, uh, affecting that. I mean, I can take somebody and do some minute changes with the neck position at the thoracic outlet, okay? And immediately see an enhancement in power output. And I can measure it. We measure this stuff, uh, with, uh, you know, velocity, uh, devices, and see, like, an, a 10%, boom, jump. And so if you think about that, what about all your training through the years where you actually had additional capacity but you weren't using it because your traction control was on? Now you figure this out stuff, and now you start stacking it, and now you can see so much greater. So it's not just injury prevention. This is performance-

Lex Fridman 22:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 22:19 ... and additive performance over time. This is huge, and people don't really think about this stuff. But we can turn that stuff off, which is actually gonna also, again, make us, make us safer. But what we want to do is the performance-tuned race car. Do they have a traction control button? No. They got some amazing tires to grip the ground, a performance-tuned suspension, and that driver's gonna put what? His foot to the metal. He's gonna put it to the floor. Okay? That's a performance vehicle.

Lex Fridman 22:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 22:48 That's what we wanna be.

Lex Fridman 22:50 I want to continue on that line, uh, but first I have to ask, like, how did it feel to accomplish the grand goal?

Chris Duffin 22:56 Oh my God.

Lex Fridman 22:56 Okay, when you just stand back-

Chris Duffin 22:59 Oh my Go-

Lex Fridman 23:00 ... 1,000 pounds for reps, what'd it feel like?

Chris Duffin 23:04 Anybody can go watch the video (laughs) online. Um...

Lex Fridman 23:08 It's well filmed, by the way. Got me all, like, excited. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 23:11 Oh, well, the, the movie's n- It's so- We actually have the final footage of that, the good footage not posted yet. So it's literally just an Instagram video or a phone video right now, the, the only one online.

Lex Fridman 23:21 Yeah. Though the r-

Chris Duffin 23:22 Be-

Lex Fridman 23:22 It's on your YouTube channel, but it's dramatic with this.

Chris Duffin 23:25 Yes, it is, yeah.

Lex Fridman 23:25 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 23:25 Came out just timed to the music perfectly too-

Lex Fridman 23:28 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 23:28 ... which is, I listened to some odd music, um, which there's some reason behind that.

Lex Fridman 23:31 Okay.

Chris Duffin 23:32 Um, but, uh-

Lex Fridman 23:33 (laughs) I liked it though. It was great.

Chris Duffin 23:35 (laughs) It does, it does work.

Lex Fridman 23:36 You're saying there's full-length footage

Narrator 23:37 ... the documentary.

Chris Duffin 23:37 There's a documentary that's, it's got a little slowed because of COVID, 'cause it's also a backstory of The Eagle and the Dragon, my book-

Lex Fridman 23:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 23:45 ... about why I do kind of the things that I've done in my life, or that's what I'm assuming the director's working on. I don't really have-

Lex Fridman 23:52 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 23:52 ... the control of the movie, right? Uh, but... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 23:56 Yeah. But, okay, but the video's-

Chris Duffin 23:57 But okay, h-

Lex Fridman 23:58 ... incredible. How did it feel?

Chris Duffin 23:59 How'd it feel? I started crying.It was overwhelming to have worked so intensely and so long and hard at something that pushed every ounce of me to the limit, that... And, and I did it. I'm s- I'm getting a little emotional. I, I did exactly what I said I was going to fucking do.

Lex Fridman 24:19 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 24:19 Like, and it was, it was overpowering. I mean, I was just crying uncontrollably, um...

Lex Fridman 24:28 But it's-

Chris Duffin 24:28 Just with the mixture of, uh, I, I don't know what, the, the mixture of emotions is hard to explain.

Lex Fridman 24:35 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 24:35 Um, 'cause it was, it was a completion of something, it was a new phase of my life, it, I...

Lex Fridman 24:43 I mean,

Lex Fridman 24:44 there are so many things here. So one, you set an impossible goal and you accomplished it, one. Two is like, on the broader humanity aspect, like how many humans in this world accomplish perfection in a particular direction, uh, required to do this? So like-

Chris Duffin 25:01 So, and-

Lex Fridman 25:01 ... you're basically representing like a, one little like s- like little glimmer of excellence of the human spirit.

Chris Duffin 25:10 There's always more, so understand this. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 25:13 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 25:15 This is a basic fundamental.

Lex Fridman 25:16 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 25:16 You can always do better.

Lex Fridman 25:18 Right.

Chris Duffin 25:18 There is no such thing as perfection.

Lex Fridman 25:20 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 25:20 You could always... There is always more.

Lex Fridman 25:23 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 25:23 So any time you reach something, any amazing workout or accomplishment in life, could you have put more into it? Could you-

Lex Fridman 25:29 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 25:29 Yes. But here's the thing, I left on my terms. I said, "This is it. I'm going to work towards, I've been training for 30 years, I'm going to do this thing that is un-" Like I couldn't even say that I was going to do it years before. "I'm going to do it and then I'm done." And I didn't leave from an injury, I wasn't forced, I wasn't... I left on, I did exactly what I said. I, I, I went to a level that I, I left on my terms, and that's unique, 'cause that's usually not the case. Usually you kind of either taper out or, it doesn't mat- And I'm talking like anything in life in general, right? Like, um, you taper out, you fail, you hurt, like you loo- you lose a j- like something, you know, you roll into retirement, like-

Lex Fridman 26:22 You've accomplished-

Chris Duffin 26:23 I did it.

Lex Fridman 26:23 ... something truly great and you walked away in your own terms. Is there a sadness completing something like that? Because it's, it's in one perspective the greatest thing you'll ever do. And like when you accomplish such a great height, in some sense you have to face your mortality at that point.

Chris Duffin 26:44 So good question, but it is certainly not the greatest thing that I'll ever do. It's the greatest physical streak I'll ever do.

Lex Fridman 26:50 There's always more. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 26:51 The greatest phys- (laughs) yes. Uh, but that was an expression of some of my values-

Lex Fridman 26:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 26:59 ... and the way that I want to live. It was a way of expressing it. So understanding that is hugely fundamental, because y- we do see so many athletes get to the end of a career and then they fall into a depressive state and struggle with drugs, alcohol, depression, and so on, because they lost how they identified themself and trying to figure out where to turn, what to do, but a big central component of their identity is lost. So I knew that this was one way to express that, and my grand goals have shifted. They're shifted to other outlets that allow me to express that. Like my companies, Kabuki Strength, I'm going to change the face of fitness, as well as all the way through with its integration with clinical medicine and telemedicine, and you know, I got another five years before even people see what I'm working on. I'm five years in right now, 'cause I had to invent equipment, I had to develop methodologies that we're talking, I had to do this stuff, that ground layer wasn't done to create a cohesive ecosystem...

Lex Fridman 28:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 28:05 ... of training methodology tied to the tools that we're using, to the, to the environment tied to the clinical practice assessment tied to the, the interaction between all those, and how that actually needs to be reframed because so much of this is broken, okay? So-

Lex Fridman 28:19 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 28:21 But there is sadness. I won't deny that. And the sadness comes in the singularity of focus that I had at that time, the being in the process. Not necessarily do it, but like having, being in this place that the rest of the world kind of fell away for me in those final phases, to have something so intense, to have a team around me so focused on supporting and like... It took me a couple of months after that squat, I finally one day I woke up and I was like, "Oh, welcome back to the world."

Lex Fridman 28:59 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 28:59 Like I was in such a mental fog, like I was... It took me a while to climb out of that, but that, that space, that level of intensity and drive and, and living and being in that space, I, I do miss that. But I also, I can't continue that. I couldn't cont- like there's a point of like you push it so hard, the level to try to go from there is not acceptable for what you, the impacts that'll have on your life or how you want to live. And it was taking away those final like... I, I had to do extreme things and live in an extreme way to, to

Chris Duffin 29:34 get there.

Lex Fridman 29:34 You're just a genius in this whole space of strength and health and bi- uh, almost like biology that, uh, this strength feat is just one representation of that. But this particular strength feat required that kind of singular focus, which I think... I don't know, there's something beautiful about that singular focus that's-

Chris Duffin 29:54 There is. There is.

Lex Fridman 29:55 ... often only truly perfected in athletics. I see it with the greatest Olympic athletes as well, the kind of singular focus required there is incredible, and it's somehow-... some of the most beautiful things that humans can do, uh, is achieved in that singularity.

Chris Duffin 30:11 And it's not just that thing. So that's the thing. It's like, oh, that must be it. When we say singularity of focus, it's not like here's a... because it, it covers a vast array of stuff. Like, I was working with people, uh, you know, all... well, yeah, all around North America. I wouldn't say anybody around the globe. But professionals coming in, working on different aspects of rehab and, and recovery, and like... I, I mean, I'm tapping all sorts of stuff in so many platforms, from nutrition to drugs to, uh, again, like, you know, various, uh, Chinese medicine, you know, as far as, you know-

Lex Fridman 30:47 But also the humans in your life.

Chris Duffin 30:48 ... like, like it's so-

Lex Fridman 30:49 Just love and, and, uh, positivity, and just inspiration, all those kinds of aspects. I mean, you probably would have done much more if you, uh, went outside North America and talked to some Russians, just between you and I.

Chris Duffin 31:01 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 31:01 Some Russians-

Chris Duffin 31:02 Poss- possibly. (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 31:03 (Laughs) They could, they could give you some, uh... I don't know. Those, those... there's some incredible strength athletes in Eastern Europe.

Chris Duffin 31:09 Uh, absolutely. Um, I've got, uh, the best one, uh, coming, uh, in September, uh, to get fixed, so.

Lex Fridman 31:15 What do you mean by fixed?

Chris Duffin 31:17 So I'm not sure what his particular issues are, but, uh, he has held the all-time world record repeatedly for a long time, and, uh, he hasn't competed for some time, and he just reached out saying he would like to come and have me take a look and see if I can get him fixed because he needs to return.

Lex Fridman 31:31 Oh, so... Okay, so it's more injury centric versus like form and, uh, fundamental centric. A combination of everything.

Chris Duffin 31:38 Everybody always wants to focus on the output, how do you, how do you give me the fix for that, but-

Lex Fridman 31:42 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 31:42 ... it ties right back into all those other things.

Lex Fridman 31:45 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 31:45 Right? So, um, but yeah. The Eastern, the Eastern bloc continued to be a dominant force, uh, in regards to, uh, athletics and strength athletes, without a doubt. Some of my big rivals in my competitive days were... That's, that's who it was. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 32:01 Rivalry brings out the best in us. Can you tell me the story of your childhood?

Chris Duffin 32:05 It's definitely

Chris Duffin 32:06 outside the scope of the norm. Well, today. Maybe not 150 or 200 years ago.

Lex Fridman 32:10 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 32:11 But, (laughs) uh, my parents, highly intelligent, you know, people coming out of the Bay Area. My mom was, you know, going to school to be a chemical engineer. She was a top, top student athlete, graduated of her school. My father was a member of Mensa, and my stepfather was just a genius, but not able to really function in society. But my mom was... you know, she had some demons and some other stuff, and just... she just said one day, she's like, "I just don't want to be part of society." She still isn't. (laughs) Uh, lives out in the desert, but, uh, has her minds. But she wanted to figure out a way to make a life outside of that. And so that's where we ended up, is up in the mountains in Northern California, and a lot of that was, you know, them trying to get into successfully growing marijuana, which back in that... you know, it wasn't legal back then, highly illegal. And in fact, those areas were... some of the areas where we lived were quite dangerous. So there's a documentary, um, Murder Mountain, that came out recently. If you watch that, you'll tie into my book, uh, just the understanding of wh- the stuff that I was talking about dealing with serial killers, human trafficking, police corruption, uh, murderers. Like, just how real that stuff is if it doesn't capture you from the book, okay?

Lex Fridman 33:35 The book, by the way, is The Eagle and The Dragon.

Chris Duffin 33:37 Yep. Thank you. (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 33:39 (laughs) . It's a great one.

Chris Duffin 33:40 Yeah, yeah. I'm a terrible salesperson, uh, like I told you.

Lex Fridman 33:42 Yeah. Oh.

Chris Duffin 33:42 So, uh... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:44 But a good, uh... it's a good title. I don't know if you came up with it, but, uh-

Chris Duffin 33:47 I did, yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:49 So yeah, we'll talk about that.

Chris Duffin 33:50 So-

Lex Fridman 33:50 Anyway.

Chris Duffin 33:50 We're living by a, a stream, you know, off a meadow. There's no roads into where you have to hike in. And we've got beams lashed into the trees up above us because that's where our bedding is 'cause there's rattlesnake dens all around, and six years old, I'm being taught how to capture and handle live rattlesnakes because that's what I need to do to be safe. And you can imagine, six years old, sitting there with a live rattlesnake in your hand, grabbing it, you know, by the side of the head, controlling so it can't, can't bite you, and it's just wrapping itself around your arm, and you're staring. And like its only intent is... right then, is to kill you.

Lex Fridman 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 34:28 Like, that's it, right? Um, you, you wanna take a bath, it's filling up the jug in the stream and setting it out on the rocks during the, during the sun so you dump it over your head, and... You know, not all the living was that way. Hmm, you know? Good part was similar to that, tent living, living in a 16-foot trailer with a family of six, which is not much bigger than the space that we're sitting here. Um, so, and we're talking hard winters with feet of snow on the ground, nowhere to go. Um, I'm living in the back of the, the pickup truck in a... just a standard sleeping bag that we get from the Salvation Army, not the s- not the Below Zero, so I'm, uh... I'm, I'm not sleeping well. There's living in homes that were maybe, uh, condemned. There's no, no doors even on them, no electricity or running water, or one or the other, or both, and sometimes a little bit better. By the high time we got to high school, uh, we had a mobile home, so... My stepfather had won a disability payment 'cause he had a broken arm that whole time, uh, from a accident a long time ago, and finally got, uh, an award and got a down payment on this mobile home that didn't have, again, doors on the inside. It did have running water, did have electricity, didn't have a kitchen. You know, the windows would, you know, crank close and open, but they wouldn't close all the way, so they'll trim them in with, uh, plastic to be able to, uh, try to protect from the elements. That was my environment, like, learning how to forage for mushrooms. I mean, there's summers I would send... you know, my parents would be out... they were in the drug trade earlier. We got taken by the, by the police and put into foster care for, for a while, which ties into some of the stories with human trafficking, and honestly, I... it's in my book, but it's really hard for me to...... talk about that, uh, stuff, um, and obviously not all that's in the book. So, um, but they got us back and we moved to, to Oregon, and they stayed out of the drug trade from that time to ensure that they didn't lose us again. But quickly, we kind of fell back into the same thing, so at that point it was learning about geology and starting to do mining and firewood cutting, but mostly the mining 'cause Pat's broken arm, chainsaw made a little tough.

Lex Fridman 36:40 I- if you remember just the sequence of moments, do you, um, are you haunted by the, the darker moments of your childhood? Do you remember moments of simple joy and happiness?

Chris Duffin 36:53 Outside of the living around dangerous people and the interactions that came from that, we were a family. Like, we were a cohesive unit battling against the world together. We spent all our time together, work, play, I was there. I was helping raise my, my siblings, or I was working with them and, you know, it was a constant. Like I said, we were very physically active, so, you know, I had that in my upbringing. Um, plug for my shoe company, Barefoot.

Lex Fridman 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 37:24 B-E-A-R.

Lex Fridman 37:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 37:25 I ran around the wilderness in bare feet all the time, you know, but, it- it was... I had a lot of great moments, and I'm thankful for a lot of that childhood once we take out the trauma and the other stuff associated with it, right? And so, the connection that I have with my sisters, um, is, is, is huge, um, that goes a bit further t- 'cause I am kind of like a, a little bit of a father figure because I was at home raising them and then later I took custody of them, uh, while I was going to school because the environment at home deteriorated further. Their stepfa- stepfather, like I said, was... he wasn't capable of managing life, and, uh, my mom had a mental breakdown and took off to Montana, and he descended into madness even worse. Uh, actually took my, my 13-year-old sister and kicked her out in the middle of winter, couple feet of snow on the ground because he thought she stole his favorite cereal bowl, um, type. So yeah, that's when I t- took in and, uh, was going to college, putting myself through college, and I started taking custody of my sisters and raising them, so. Anyway, we're still, like, very, very tight family. Um, it took... there was a few years later in life, like, that the connection with my mother was kind of broken. Um, I didn't speak to her for years because of her basically abandoning my sisters and me having to come in. But that, that, we've worked through that as best we can.

Lex Fridman 38:51 So you... anger on your part?

Chris Duffin 38:53 It wasn't... there might have been some anger. Um-

Lex Fridman 38:57 Did you always love her?

Chris Duffin 38:58 Yes, and I still do, and I'm so... she's taught me basically everything I know about strength and perseverance, and living life on your terms, and being able to, to create that. And so much of what I am is from that, right? We've all had to learn to be okay with the way she is because she is just blunt, but, you know, she's the one that figured out that the human trafficking situation and got, uh, got the DA involved, and got all the... uh, uh, she's the one that... (sighs) I've learned a lot from her.

Lex Fridman 39:40 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 39:40 And, uh-

Lex Fridman 39:41 Did you inherit some of the demons?

Chris Duffin 39:44 Oh, most certainly, and I... it's something I've continued, like, uh, in... my father's side is, has been really tough on that because some of it is just based genetic as well. So my, my stepfather made, I think, six or seven attempts on his life during his lifetime, one of those in front of me. Uh, his mother blew her head off with a shotgun, uh, her brother jumped out a window in LA, um, their father did something similar and I don't know how far back it goes because there is no family except for me, my, my children.

Lex Fridman 40:18 You spoke about going through depression yourself.

Chris Duffin 40:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:23 Can you, um, talk about some of the darker moments of that? Have you ever, like many in your family, have you ever considered suicide?

Chris Duffin 40:31 Yes, I have. Yes, I have.

Lex Fridman 40:35 You've achieved a lot of exceptional things in your life. Can you talk about those early days of depression and how you overcame it?

Chris Duffin 40:45 Yeah. (sighs) So the things that I did that people give me accolades for are the things that I did selfishly to save myself. The things like taking custody of my sisters, being the person that everybody around, you know, the, the important people relied on. The fact that I had to step to the plate and be present and be that person, because if I failed, they failed. They would be like the people that I grew up with that are dead or in prison, or on drugs and they're either way to, to one of those, right? That's where everybody ended, and I wasn't gonna let that happen.

Lex Fridman 41:33 What about saving yourself?

Chris Duffin 41:35 And so that's how... in those early days, that's how I did it. Not saying it's the best approach, but it was survivor mentality. It was, "I can't selfishly do that because I have them to take care of."

Lex Fridman 41:47 Hmm.

Chris Duffin 41:48 Right? And then that continued where I would keep putting myself in these leadership roles or other things and just always being this person that was at the center, at the hub that forced me to be there. And so it's only in the more recent, you know, last decade or so that I have had to really learn how to come and start confronting some of those demons.... and you think, "Man, why is the guy so successful?" Like, I mean, and we haven't talked about all the stuff that I've done, but, like, um, I've seen a lot of success in both, um, business leadership, athletics, uh, (laughs) academics, (laughs) uh, entrepreneurship, all these sorts of things, right? But if it wasn't for, you know, having kids, and the same being in the position, I wouldn't be here. If, if... A- and that's just, that's the reality of it, and I'm learning to, to come and manage those as best I can. Learning to meditate into those things and really feel what the driver is so I can get to those, those root understanding. Um, and, and having some guidance doing so. Like, if you've got mental health issues, this isn't something that you need to tackle on your own. Like, having a professional that can help guide you on that introspective journey is, is something like... It's not like, "Hey, I'm big tough guy, I can handle everything."

Lex Fridman 43:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 43:17 You know?

Lex Fridman 43:18 That's fascinating that, um, you saved yourself. That's quite powerful to save yourself by, uh, having depend on you and so you can't fail. You can't fuck it up. And that's a reason to keep moving forward. But, uh, on the flip side, that's not addressing the darkness.

Chris Duffin 43:40 It's not. And it probably not a sustainable strategy either, right?

Lex Fridman 43:45 (laughs) Well-

Chris Duffin 43:45 So I, I recognize these things.

Lex Fridman 43:47 ... I don't know.

Chris Duffin 43:48 And, uh...

Lex Fridman 43:49 (laughs) It could, perhaps it is sustainable. Perhaps it's, I mean, there, there's something beautiful about giving yourself basically in service of others, and thereby creating purpose. And then, like, it's almost like-

Chris Duffin 44:03 That it-

Lex Fridman 44:03 ... fake it 'til you make it. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 44:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 44:05 And then you make it eventually.

Chris Duffin 44:06 Yeah. That is purpose though. Like-

Lex Fridman 44:08 That is purpose.

Chris Duffin 44:09 That is purpose. I mean, you have to... To me, life is about taking your cup and how you choose to pour it out. How you choose to give. What is your purpose? What is that connection with everybody around you? This is... That's, that's the intent. That's the life. That's, that's what life is about. How are you going to help those around you? How are you gonna help the world, you know? Your purpose is, is right here, figuring out what this is. And then, how to do that? But at the same time, you can't let that run dry, so you have to make sure-

Lex Fridman 44:42 Right.

Chris Duffin 44:42 ... that you're filling that cup.

Lex Fridman 44:44 That's the other side. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 44:45 That's the other side, right?

Lex Fridman 44:45 (laughs) Uh-

Chris Duffin 44:46 That's the other side.

Lex Fridman 44:47 ... yeah. We'll return to your engineering degree, which y- you're obviously scientifically engineering-minded, which is fascinating.

Lex Fridman 44:55 Y- your book is titled The Eagle & Dragon. Uh, what do the eagle and the dragon symbolize?

Chris Duffin 45:02 They're pretty big symbols for me. In fact, it covers my entire body as a tattoo. So the first one I had done at around 19 years old. And so this is... Or started at 19. Uh, it's an, uh, an eagle that covers my entire front, s- you know, my stomach, ribcage, and, and one that was on my back that covered most of my back. And there's chain at the, uh, well, at the claw I guess.

Lex Fridman 45:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 45:28 Uh, and the chain wraps down around and it attaches to, to my ankle, and there's a shackle there. And so this was something that I had done at that age because it was, to me, it was a representation of your potential, your strengths, your abilities, that you can fly to whatever height that you want in this world. The only thing holding you back at the end of the day is yourself. And this was... I was, I hadn't necessarily accomplished a whole lot at that time. I mean, I was valedictorian for high school, small high school. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:02 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 46:02 Does that even count? Uh, I was a state level wrestler. This was my belief. And-

Lex Fridman 46:09 You, you sensed that there was a potential in you, and the only thing that could, uh, stop you from realizing that potential was yourself.

Chris Duffin 46:15 That's right.

Lex Fridman 46:16 That's a heck of a tattoo to get, by the way, at 19. But th- (laughs)

Chris Duffin 46:21 Yeah. (laughs) About 40 hours went into that thing.

Lex Fridman 46:24 It shows you got some guts.

Chris Duffin 46:26 And then the next tattoo... So I only (laughs) have two, uh, I had done in 2015, 2016, uh, when I... So at this point in my life, so I had done that. I had flown to whatever heights, right? So I had, I had proven to myself, and, and maybe done what I thought I needed to do to show the world that this poor kid from the sticks, this, this kid growing up in the mountains with nothing could achieve the American dream. I was a corporate executive, sought after, that I'd come in, I'd fix companies, I'd turn around and prep them for sale. I'd take a company and grow it from a, a regional, to a national, to a global presence. I did this in the automotive manufacturing, aerospace manufacturing, high tech, heavy industry. Uh, and, uh, I had a house with a white picket fence. I was a successful athlete with (laughs) all-time world records. I owned a gym on the side where I coached people. And, uh, I had a comfortable marriage that everything was hunky-dory with no arguments at home.

Lex Fridman 47:35 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 47:37 And, uh, I walked away from all of it. I left everything behind, except for my kids. I wanted to chase what I was meant to do, and chase what I was capable of doing. I wanted to become a better version of myself, but very intentfully. And that's what I did. I sold... I had multiple homes. Sold my homes. (laughs) I cashed in all my retirement that I'd earned for 20, nearly 20 years.... and I lost all that. I leveraged myself millions of dollars of personal debt, so that if I failed there was no way out. Even going back to that old career that I did well, I'd be living in an apartment the rest of my life paying it off. People question, people questioned me at the time because I had a comfortable easy marriage, and I chose to ask for a divorce. And I ended up living in an apartment for a couple years with no income, selling off every last thing that I had except for my two vehicles that I built, and, uh, with my, with my kids.

Lex Fridman 48:56 Hm.

Chris Duffin 48:56 And I started my businesses to help people live a better quality of life, to get them out of pain, to help them live better through strength. To realize that stress, demand, those things, they don't have to be the thing that, if you look back, made you have the bad back, made you have the bad deeds. But they do the opposite, they get you out of pain, and then I started work on my book to, to i- to hit on those other things, the mental, the emotional, maybe even spiritual. I don't touch on that one too much in there, but it's all the same. Um, that things that happen around you, to you, like maybe they're bad, can't take away that. But why can't you use what you have of it to become a stronger and better person? To become more resilient, to be able to take the, the things that you don't know that are coming in the future. And so this is very intentful, and that's what the second ... Long winded answer in your question here.

Lex Fridman 49:52 The dragon.

Chris Duffin 49:53 The dragon. The dragon is an Ouroboros, and so-

Lex Fridman 49:56 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 49:57 ... it is, it circles my entire upper body, my shoulders, my back, my chest, everything is right here, there's this big dragon head and its tail is right there in its mouth, it's eating itself. That may sound a bit graphic or whatever, but it is, it's the eating of the n- old becoming the new. It is the purposeful reinvention of one's self. It is the deciding. Not realizing just your potential, but deciding specifically who you want to be in this fucking world, and becoming that person.

Lex Fridman 50:29 Can you comment on the p- the value and the power of putting a flame to, you know, (laughs) uh, your old life, your old self? Just destroying all of it as you walk into the new life? You know? Did you have to do that? (laughs)

Chris Duffin 50:47 I don't recommend this, by the way. Because when you put yourself in no way out-

Lex Fridman 50:52 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 50:52 ... there is no way out.

Lex Fridman 50:54 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 50:54 Okay? Like, you got to really ... no.

Lex Fridman 51:00 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 51:01 But I can be an overconfident individual at times.

Lex Fridman 51:03 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 51:03 And, uh, I lived, I lived through extremes. I think it's a great way of actually finding your real values and how you want to live honestly. To chase the having absolutely perfect squat technique, but chase putting every freaking thing that you've got in it, which most people would say those are, those are opposite. Those are diametrically opposed. Um, I wanted a better home life. I wanted to do more in the world through my work. And the burning the bridges mentality is not necessarily, you know, the, the best. There was some temperament in that though, because I, I was not... I was slow to make the shift for a long time because I'd been thinking about doing it, but I was thinking about doing it in a healthcare perspective, I'm gonna go back to school to be a surgeon or a physical therapist or a chiro because that's where like all my research and stuff was in this, this human movement and rehab and recovery. This is the mentors that I've been developing were the best in the world in these things, in these disciplines. Those were my, my friends and, and, uh, but I wasn't able to compromise my family's certain quality of life. I wanted to, to keep this. It was, it was slow and hard for me to make that transition, but I didn't do it until I had a platform built enough that those first few years I did have an income, I was able to make enough from the business until it grew so fast that I needed, so much more needed to come in. The living in the apartment piece and doing all that, that was actually a couple years into, uh, into that process, maybe like two years.

Lex Fridman 52:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 52:39 Uh-

Lex Fridman 52:40 Oh, I'm with you on that. 'cause I'd, I'm actually going through that very process now. Uh, I put-

Chris Duffin 52:44 It-

Lex Fridman 52:44 I put everything, I quit everything, gave away everything, and starting anew, and uh, unfortunately or fortunately this podcast somehow became quite, um, popular. So it's getting in m- in the way of my burning everything to the ground. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 53:01 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 53:01 But in that it's a source of joy. But the main thing I'm after is, uh, the similar project as you, is building a business.

Chris Duffin 53:09 Sense of joy. So this, this is the point I want to drive home right now. Right now. 'Cause when I said burn, I learned that burning the bridges works, because that's how I had to succeed when I was earlier. The bridges weren't burnt, they didn't exist. There was no couch to go home to, there was no, there was no fallback plan. And it forced me and gave me the confidence to know that I could pull it off. But I don't encourage people because there's so much out there of this hustle porn and other stuff going, "Just grind, just go after it, get in it. Start your, like, you'll get there." And it's all about the output. To make money, to be somebody, to do this, and I'll tell you what, that is some short term motivation right there. I feel like dropping a few swear words but, um-

Lex Fridman 53:55 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 53:55 This is-

Lex Fridman 53:56 You're always welcome. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 53:57 This, this is. I've already done a few, so we'll, uh, we'll, uh-

Lex Fridman 54:00 All right. We'll balance it out. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 54:03 Uh, that is short term. That is not gonna keep you going. This nee- if you're gonna go that approach, it needs to be because this is your north star. There's gonna be so much hard work, there's gonna be years of just pushing through where you're ques- not only is everybody around you questioning you, and your family's questioning you, you're questioning yourself going, "Man, I don't know if I can pull this off." You're gonna be stressed. You're gonna be pulled to the max. If somebody comes up to me and says, "Should I start a business?" I'm gonna say, "No."... and they'll be, "Oh, you're supposed to motivate me." If you need me to motivate you, this is the wrong damn approach for you. This is gonna be hard.

Lex Fridman 54:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 54:41 This is gonna be harder than you expect, even with me telling you this. And so it better damn well be worth it. This better be your North fucking star. This better live and be a way for you to be able to articulate or realize those values that you want to live. This isn't something to make money. This is a way for you to live the life and be able to share the values that you have with the world.

Lex Fridman 55:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 55:11 That's what it is. And if you don't have that, which is gonna give you joy, (laughs) then freaking walk away.

Lex Fridman 55:19 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 55:20 This is not some way to make some money and be known.

Lex Fridman 55:23 I mean, this, this includes both like simple day-to-day joy and also deep meaning, um-

Chris Duffin 55:29 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 55:29 ... the whole thing. And then that allows you to overcome all the, all the pain along the way. But I gotta say, I mean, it's a difficult thing is 'cause you run a business. (sighs) Um, this podcast and a lot of things I do research-wise is full of joy, but it's simple. Running a business is hard.

Chris Duffin 55:50 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 55:50 (laughs) So, it, it's something that I'm very hesitant about in that s- to almost push back a little bit, I think if I do get the guts to start the business, it will not be because I'm not choosing a more joyful life 'cause I, I'm already truly happy. The reason I'll choose it is because I just can't help it. There's this... I've always had this dream, and I know it's gonna lead to suffering, and I know it's gonna be a life that has less happiness in it, as sad as it is to say.

Chris Duffin 56:26 But it won't be. It won't be less happiness because we talk about this cup and where you choose to pour it and what-

Lex Fridman 56:35 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 56:35 ... you choose to do with it, and when you look back on things, the things that are gonna give you the most joy, the most proud, the things that are gonna stand out in your life that you really remember are gonna be those days.

Lex Fridman 56:47 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 56:48 And your... Those years you struggle, you're gonna look back on 10 years later and go, "Fuck."

Lex Fridman 56:55 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 56:55 "Those were the glory days. Those were the glory days."

Lex Fridman 56:59 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 56:59 And it won't feel like it at the time.

Lex Fridman 57:01 Yeah. It's so weird.

Chris Duffin 57:03 But that's what life's made of and so-

Lex Fridman 57:05 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 57:05 ... this is your, this is your opportunity. You feel that. So right now, you got this...

Lex Fridman 57:09 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 57:09 When you think about it, you got this little thing twisting up in your gut, right?

Lex Fridman 57:12 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 57:12 And it's like, it's a mixture of anxiety and fear as well as excitement.

Lex Fridman 57:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 57:18 And that is, that's your signal that this is your opportunity for that personal growth, to challenge yourself. This is you're going for a run or working out in the heat. It's, it's those things. It is your opportunity to go back. Maybe it even fails.

Lex Fridman 57:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 57:33 Maybe it even fails. But by turning into that, you're gonna learn so much and it's gonna make you so much better, and it's the path that you should take when you have this stuff rolling around in there.

Lex Fridman 57:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 57:47 And I don't... It could just be a hard conversation with your partner or your boss.

Lex Fridman 57:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 57:53 It could be taking on a project-

Lex Fridman 57:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 57:56 ... that, you know, that get, you know, that... Your boss is throwing out to the team and you're like, "I'm gonna hide in the back, I don't want that one." And it's like maybe, maybe you do. Maybe it's going back to school.

Lex Fridman 58:08 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 58:08 Maybe it's making that career move that you always wanted but you're just a, you're just afraid of.

Lex Fridman 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 58:14 All these things are your opportunity for you to turn into that. It is your workout. It is your practice because if you don't, you'll get soft and who knows what's coming and you're not gonna be ready for it.

Lex Fridman 58:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 58:30 And it's gonna run right over the top of you because you're gonna be weak. You're gonna be soft.

Lex Fridman 58:37 There's some aspect in which choosing that hard path is actually the, the way to arrive at the richest kind of happiness, like the, the, the greatest fulfillment. That's the funny thing about just the human-

Chris Duffin 58:49 But just make sure you're filling the cup as you're going through it-

Lex Fridman 58:51 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 58:52 ... not pouring it all out. So that's the-

Lex Fridman 58:53 Yeah. Sure.

Chris Duffin 58:54 ... that's the part to figure out, right?

Lex Fridman 58:55 Sure. Well, life is short anyway. Um, eventually, eventually the cup will be empty. Uh, and so maybe time the refilling of the cup correctly-

Chris Duffin 59:06 (sighs)

Lex Fridman 59:06 ... so you maximize the little time you got.

Lex Fridman 59:10 Let me talk to you about strength a little bit. First, high level, what are the differences in the different disciplines of strength? So powerlifting we talked about. Maybe just to clarify for people, powerlifting, Olympic lifting, um, just regular gym fitness, bodybuilding, doing curls in front of the mirror for hours like I do, what's, what's the difference between all of these? Oh, and also strongman.

Chris Duffin 59:35 Every one of those as far as the athletic, uh, disciplines are different qualities. So we wanna think about things as terms of quality, so there's strength, there's power, um, there's endurance, there's the, the ability to, um, be coordinated and athletic. There's all these things and they're different, they're different qualities. So your training as it relates to that is how you cycle in the development of those qualities. What we wanna think about is, the- there's a lot of different frames of thought. Some very, uh, classical, maybe not classical Russian approach 'cause there's a lot of different approach from the Eastern, uh, Bloc, but, uh, one of the ones is developing all the qualities at once, you know, focusing on building those. Uh, more of a periodization effect would be focusing on one quality at a time or one quality while maintaining other qualities and then shifting that around. So it's just gonna be a little different based on what the output is and what the desired... So, like-... power lifting is actually, power is the wrong word, there's actually no power in it, it's just brute, it's, it's strength.

Lex Fridman 1:00:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:00:44 Um, application of force. Um-

Lex Fridman 1:00:47 And so power-

Chris Duffin 1:00:48 So Olympic lifting would actually be a better name for powerlifting.

Lex Fridman 1:00:51 For power? (laughs)

Chris Duffin 1:00:51 Um, because that is more explosive, uh, development. There's, um, strongman is again, now we're getting a little bit more athletic, it's equipment, uh, based on the implements and stuff that are used, how fast you can move your feet and run, mixed with more endurance, but still very strength-focused.

Lex Fridman 1:01:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:01:09 And there's some things with strongman that is straight, like each one of these is very also f- focused on different genetic dispositions.

Lex Fridman 1:01:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:01:18 So actually if you look at the history of sports, you'll find that they're a lot of times based on different populations. And that sounds like it's very un-PC, but like, uh, Highland games-

Lex Fridman 1:01:28 (laughs)

Chris Duffin 1:01:28 ... um, they've got deep, deeper hip sockets that are shallow. So you're gonna see a lot of short hip hinge movements, like the, the caber toss-

Lex Fridman 1:01:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:01:35 ... and things like that. Muay Thai wrestling, they've got a completely different hip joint.

Lex Fridman 1:01:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:01:40 And so strongman itself is gonna be for very large framed individuals. If you're not well over six foot and a large person, you're probably not going to perform well. Very few people at sub six foot have ever done well at strongman just because it's, it's leverage based, right? Um, Olympic lifting. We see consistently in, in Europe, uh, the, the history tells us a high level of hip, uh, and back issues because of the depth that that hip socket has to go in to be able to complete that lift.

Lex Fridman 1:02:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:02:11 And so you're gonna see issues with populations that don't have the ability to do that. So, so we've talked a little bit about training as well as disposition.

Lex Fridman 1:02:20 Yeah. So, and also crossfit fits into that.

Chris Duffin 1:02:23 Yep.

Lex Fridman 1:02:23 That's more like strongman but for a wider variety of bodies, I suppose.

Chris Duffin 1:02:27 Yep. And definitely more metabolic conditioning focus than the, than the strength aspect of it. Um, and a- a- a- and conditioning is an interesting thing too. So that quality, in my opinion, can be developed a, a lot faster, but kind of peaks much faster as well. So you, where strength we can continue to add and add and add over time, uh, so it's for me, like for conditioning with any strength athlete, I don't like to spend as much time on that. So I'll cycle, uh, the conditioning work for our strength athletes, and then taper that off leading into meets. So the more, uh, metabolic work, that means the more capacity in strength training that you can accomplish, which is the goal.

Lex Fridman 1:03:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:03:09 Um, and recover from, but then as we lead to a competition, we want to spend more time on recovering from that, so we have to pull things out, so we'd pull out less. So like, a typical approach would be like taking a six-week cycle for conditioning and ramping, ramping up over three weeks period's time, then dropping back down again, and ramping up and being slightly offset by like a week or two from your strength peaks.

Lex Fridman 1:03:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:03:34 So that you've actually tapered the week prior in your conditioning work to your strength work, right? And but that way we're not hitting conditioning hard all the time, which is a common, common, uh, misstep that people make is going, "Well, I need conditioning." So they just hammer that at a base level over the top.

Lex Fridman 1:03:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:03:49 Instead of cycling that.

Lex Fridman 1:03:52 If we talk about power lifting, in terms of regimen, in terms of exercise-

Chris Duffin 1:04:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:00 ... in terms of the process, the, what, consistent with what? Is there something to be said about general qualities of the consistency of the regimen required to get strong?

Chris Duffin 1:04:10 Yes. So let's talk about some training principles as a whole. And this will (laughs) , I think this will break th- down what you're, what you're wanting. The more work that we can fit into a given time, the more progress we're going to make. But that doesn't mean doing the max amount of work possible at any given time.

Lex Fridman 1:04:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:04:34 So we know that we're always to, to, to accomplish more, we're always gonna have more. And there's a certain ceiling that you're gonna hit that you're not gonna be able to add more. So you want to start and get the most amount of results that you can with the least amount of work, because you're gonna have to do it again, like this stair step, over and over, year, decade, so on. So when people, this is a big myth people got, they look at, uh, a Shiko program from Russia or so on, and they go, "I'm gonna follow this." And it's like, that was specifically written for somebody with 20 years of experience that's already built the capacities to be at that level. So it's all about building that work capacity. So how much work can you give in a given time? So now we want to look at some research as it relates to injuries, because injuries are gonna be a big driver over time of what holds you back. So when we talk consistency, training hard for three years, five years, it's gonna be really good, but what we find is a lot of people train really hard for nine months, have to slow back for a month, get back into it, then miss another week because, and so on. They're always like this little nagging, that little nagging. And so it's pretty clear in the research we wanna, we're looking at, when we're stair-stepping this stuff, we're looking at acute and chronic loading. So some fancy words for average and like what's happening right now. So this given week would be our acute, chronic would be what is our average loading, let's say, over the last six months.

Lex Fridman 1:06:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:06:06 Okay? So the more that we can move the chronic loading up, the more work we're getting done on a, as a whole over time, we're gonna get stronger. The way that we build the capacity to do that is having spikes in acute loading.

Lex Fridman 1:06:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:06:19 Okay? Now, the, the, as we do this, the, the acute sp- loading, if it spikes more than 10, maybe 15% from what the chronic loading has been, that accounts for 80% of injuries out there.

Lex Fridman 1:06:37 Wow.

Chris Duffin 1:06:39 So, it's not actually the movement quality or this misstep or the other. And it usually happens about four, five, six weeks later. It's like, "Oh, this nagging," and then it gets worse, and then now you gotta, you gotta do some rehab, your training sessions aren't as good and so on. So, now we're starting to look at this, okay, it's like, I wanna do the... I wanna do the least amount of work where I can still progress. I want to be able to have spikes in my weekly demand that don't go above 10 to 15% of what I've been averaging for the last month, but every time I do a spike, my, my average goes up, right? Boom, boom, boom. And then that becomes very particular also when you take, when you do take planned ta- time off. So, a lot of people, uh, training session, maybe they're doing a five-week block with a, a, a, a deload week, or you go on vacation for a week, or any of those things that are, were a downward, what does that do to your average in chronic loading? It brings it down. And then what does the person want to do when they come back? Make up for it.

Lex Fridman 1:07:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:07:39 Now they have a huge spike above. Five weeks later, "We're dealing with, ah, this elbow, this wrist, whatever's kinda bothering me," and now you're not performing as much. So, these are some really fundamental pieces of, of, of, of training. And then, now we can start overlaying the qualities that we're trying to develop-

Lex Fridman 1:07:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:07:56 ... that we were, talked about earlier. So, now it's, let's talk about my deadlift, my 1,000-pound deadlift. We're talking about the training cycles for both, the 1,000, uh, deadlift and squat. So, backing up a year out from the deadlift, knowing I was training at the time heavy deadlifts once a week, and usually it was two of those sessions a month were really heavy and the others weren't. And it's like, "Okay, how can we get this up to where I'm deadlifting twice a week?" Because that's where I wanna be. (laughs) Uh, to be able to accomplish this, I need to be loading about that much with frequency, with a certain volume to be able to accomplish this goal. We're not gonna go through all the math and stuff like that and how that's arrived, but-

Lex Fridman 1:08:34 But there is math behind it.

Chris Duffin 1:08:35 ... there is math behind this. And so instead of just, like, "Oh, let's start deadlifting twice a week," no. So, we start and we take the one session that we've got, and we split it, part of it, take part of it away and put it in the second half of the week, so the total volume is still the same. And then, um, we start adding some volume, but I'm doing it at a, off of blocks so that the actual load is, accumulative load is less 'cause I have less range of motion, okay? And then we start building that closer to the ground, closer to the ground, and so on, and now we start getting to where I'm almost doing two sessions, full sessions a week. And then we start adding a little bit of load. And so at my level, this isn't talking about adding another set or another day a week. We're talking, like in my squat, it might be one rep. Instead of doing three sets of three, uh, one week I do two doubles, or two triples then two doubles to give me one more rep. That's it. And so we're doing that from one week to the next, and that's a cycle, training cycle. It might be five, six weeks, and then so on, and then the next one, and slowly bringing that average load up.

Lex Fridman 1:09:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:09:47 So, the last phases of the squat, for example, we took the average loading every week, so my, of my heavy sets. So, once we developed all this stuff over the last year to get to this point, now it is taking and going, "Okay, my average load this week is eight reps at 955 pounds." And then the next week, "Uh, let's get it to 9- 957."

Lex Fridman 1:10:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:10:12 963. And this was pretty aggressive. Working up to where my average load in the final, that, uh, the final was 985 pounds-

Lex Fridman 1:10:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:10:20 ... average load for eight to nine reps. And that's why I said this is the intense part. That was why it was, the day of was much easier.

Lex Fridman 1:10:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:10:26 That, week over week, is pretty brutal. Um, it may not sound, "Oh, you're just squatting." And now let's back it up, let's look at the quality development, so a year out from the squat. Um, obviously I've been working on developing axial load capacity, my capacity to withstand load from top to bottom. So, I like thinking about things in movement vectors. So, this vector is an axial loaded vector, is the hardest to recover from. Uh-

Lex Fridman 1:10:51 Sorry, what's axial? So like, is deadlift-

Chris Duffin 1:10:53 Dead-

Lex Fridman 1:10:54 Are they both?

Chris Duffin 1:10:54 They're both. Yup. So, a horizontal w- uh, front to back would be like a row or a press.

Lex Fridman 1:11:01 Why is the axial, uh, hardest to recover from? 'Cause it's entire body? The entire tricep and fore-

Chris Duffin 1:11:05 Entire body, just anything that is, that, uh, that, uh, taxes the, the s- the spinal mechanics. I, I don't... I could tell you my beliefs. It's studied. It is.

Lex Fridman 1:11:15 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:11:15 Okay? Um, we can just keep the discussion on that, but short like that.

Lex Fridman 1:11:19 (laughs) Yeah, simple.

Chris Duffin 1:11:20 So, uh, so we start looking at those different vectors that we're training in. So, this is why this is important to understand, so I'm not just getting into nuance here. So, hey, squatting is gonna make me, make me jump further 'cause it's legs. Well, squatting is an axial load vector, and jumping is a vector this way. So, actually hip thrusts would help with your in- (laughs) your... and this is proven in science, with your forward jumping ability. Uh, they're both working similar muscles, the glute extension, but they're working it in those different platforms. So, it's really important to understand because people don't understand, "I'm building my work capacity by doing sled pushes."

Lex Fridman 1:12:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:12:01 You're not developing your work capacity for squatting.

Lex Fridman 1:12:04 Most movements, even ones as holistic as a, as a squat, require specialization.

Chris Duffin 1:12:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:12:12 K- you can't get strong at the squat by doing, uh-

Chris Duffin 1:12:15 It, you're gonna have some carry over, right? Obviously. But because y- taking an untrained person that hasn't done it, it's d- not, still not gonna do as good as somebody that's done non-specific work, but done work.

Lex Fridman 1:12:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:12:26 So, but yes, for the most part.

Lex Fridman 1:12:28 To get truly strong-

Chris Duffin 1:12:29 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:12:29 ... you need to specialize.

Chris Duffin 1:12:30 So, but not all the time. So, now we talk about qualities. So, and if we specialize in the same thing too long, we stagnate because the body adapts to a certain point and just can't make progress. So, we wanted to save the actual squatting in the pattern with the bar that I was doing for the very end. So, starting a year out-... I started doing work front squatting, like a squat, axial loaded pattern, and worked on maximizing that up. Then I started shifting to doing transformer bar squat. It's this bar I developed that actually change and manipulates spinal mechanics. So I started loading in these more forward positions and being able... Again, so now I'm getting closer than a front squat, but not quite squatting. And then I would start adjusting that bar every training cycle to closer to a squat, closer to a squat, till it finally was. Right?

Lex Fridman 1:13:21 So what's the difference between a front squat and, uh, a regular, like a back squat? Like in terms of the, the stress on the body, the mechanics?

Chris Duffin 1:13:29 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:29 Was there something interesting to be said about... Like, how fundamentally different are they?

Chris Duffin 1:13:34 So what's interesting, people think about the weight in, in position to them like, "Oh, the bar's in front of me, the bar's behind me," which is not the case. Um, the bar is above your mid-foot. The load is above your mid-foot.

Lex Fridman 1:13:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:13:47 (laughs) So we're actually manipulating the spine behind the bar.

Lex Fridman 1:13:51 Hm.

Chris Duffin 1:13:52 So we're causing spinal uprighting behind the bar, getting in a more erect position, which is gonna change the relationship of the hip angle. It's gonna change our ability to maintain the spine. It's going to change the, uh, how much the, the core comes in, how hard it is to maintain that sternum to diaphragm relationship that we talked about. All this stuff starts changing.

Lex Fridman 1:14:13 So the bar stays in the same place?

Chris Duffin 1:14:14 The bar is still behind you, but the load-

Lex Fridman 1:14:16 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 1:14:16 ... moves around, so... But we're actually manipulating the spine around the load.

Lex Fridman 1:14:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:14:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:14:22 That's incredible.

Chris Duffin 1:14:22 W- we can tailor it to an athlete, which is great when you got a seven-foot plus tall ba- baseball player or basketball player. That's why we work with all these teams. Anyway, so it's like you're taking something and getting closer and closer to it. At the same time, we're looking at the quality, so like I needed to be able to really hold this torso position with the weight moving up here. Now, unlike the deadlift, the ability to manage this TL position becomes much more challenging. So that was also why I was choosing the transformer bar, because it actually challenges that more in those big forward positions. I was also working on my back strength tremendously to be able to hold and maintain position, so there was a lot of like, I chose, uh, bent over rows. So a bent over row is a mixed vector, so it's a forward to back, so it wouldn't have as much carrier, but it's also, um, uh, got some axial loading component in it as well.

Lex Fridman 1:15:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:15:10 Um, so we're working on that. And then as it, as we get closer and closer to competition, I'm developing those strengths, but now I need to start tapering those out so all of my recovery needs can now go into the more specific that I'm actually ramping the load up. So as I'm ramping the load, on the weight, I'm able to ramp it a lot faster because I'm tapering out the other stuff so I can still keep my total load high, but now get it very, very specific.

Lex Fridman 1:15:37 Wow

Narrator 1:15:37 That's crazy.

Chris Duffin 1:15:37 So everything I've done has always been kind of an annual training cycle.

Lex Fridman 1:15:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:15:40 Um, and then again, this was like a, this was a five-year training cycle, but we just kind of walked through the last year of each and you can see how these concepts play out in reality.

Lex Fridman 1:15:50 So in the cycling, so this is both for you, um, also for more recreational strength athletes, let's say there's variety injected into the system.

Chris Duffin 1:16:01 You need variety. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because you will st- basically stagnate at some level, right? So you should, should always be kind of shifting a little bit. So, um, three to four-month blocks in general for an average, you know, just a gen pop fitness, is pretty good. Um, where you're going to spend more time maybe in a higher rep range or lower rep range, a little bit more, uh, work on, uh, endurance, capacity, or maybe some more time, "Hey, I'm playing around with boxing, or jujitsu, or something like that," bring that a little bit more to the front, forefront for a while and bring the other out. But like mixing, mixing those variables up, but trying to keep the total load the same and always kind of like, "Uh, do we add a little more?" Again, it doesn't have to be major and it shouldn't be major. You don't want these big jumps. You don't go, "Oh my God, let's move. Uh, let's jump into squatting every day." Um, you've got to build the capacity to do that.

Lex Fridman 1:16:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:16:54 It's

Chris Duffin 1:16:55 simple.

Lex Fridman 1:16:55 What role would you say strength has in, uh, sports that combine skill and strength?

Chris Duffin 1:17:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:17:01 So for me personally, maybe I'll just ask it selfishly, which is, uh, uh, grappling, wrestling, MMA.

Chris Duffin 1:17:09 Yeah. How about I start with baseball? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:17:13 (laughs) Please.

Chris Duffin 1:17:13 Uh, no. I- I would-

Lex Fridman 1:17:15 Okay.

Chris Duffin 1:17:15 I know. The, the sport... Okay. Uh, no.

Lex Fridman 1:17:17 Like baseball and golf are two of my favorite sports. Oh, no.

Chris Duffin 1:17:22 S-

Lex Fridman 1:17:22 I don't, you don't have to be in shape at all to excel at those sports.

Chris Duffin 1:17:25 Well, ac- well, here's the thing. So-

Lex Fridman 1:17:27 There we go. (laughs)

Chris Duffin 1:17:27 It does help.

Lex Fridman 1:17:27 We're gonna get this argument.

Chris Duffin 1:17:29 It... Well, I've got a perfect example, because this is, this is why I sell so many transformer bars into the, the Major League Baseball. So they get these people, uh, that come in, these athletes that have been baseball their whole life. It is part of the culture. And so they're great athletes. They've got all the skill. The only thing they have to do is develop a little bit more resilience.

Lex Fridman 1:17:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:17:53 So that they don't have the injury, they, they can push their training a little bit more.

Lex Fridman 1:17:56 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 1:17:56 That they can add a little bit more force output and be able to recover from it. So the only thing they've got to do is add some training. But there's no training culture there, so they don't have any experience, which is why they love the transformer bar, because they don't have to worry about teaching the technique. We can actually set the bar on a setting that makes their squats perfect-

Lex Fridman 1:18:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:18:14 ... by cueing all the stuff with actually not having to coach it, 'cause when you're coaching a room full of athletes, it's really hard to teach the nuance of all this and not sure about all that. But that's all that they have to do with these players with a huge level of skill. So once you reach a certain level of skill, adding strength is the o- the only real forward path.

Lex Fridman 1:18:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:18:34 So, so that's the, the, the basic simple answer to that.

Lex Fridman 1:18:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:18:39 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:18:39 So one of the benefits there being like injury prevention, actually.

Chris Duffin 1:18:42 Injury prevent- resilience.

Lex Fridman 1:18:43 Resilience.

Chris Duffin 1:18:44 Because we... Especially, uh, fighting sports. You're going to be challenged and, and thrown and other things happen to you, and the more resilient you can make your structures, the better you're going to be. Even a cyclist mountain biking-... why would they need it? Why would they need to do upper body training? Take a crash, your shoulder's gone. You're done. Your career is over. Unless you've done a little training. Right? So, so there's value in all this stuff but, uh, the resilience is like, that's, that's huge, and then we can overlay strength. The peop- where we miss is this focus on strength when we haven't developed quality motor patterns first. So, this is a huge thing with, uh, uh, children, because people want to know what's the appropriate training age.

Lex Fridman 1:19:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:19:26 I'd had my daughter training before my son because she developed movement patterns at a better quality earlier. There's no age, because it's gonna be very dependent on the individual. There's no point in having adaptation if we don't have the right thing to adapt to yet.

Lex Fridman 1:19:41 And that applies to general movement, but also to sport. You're s-

Chris Duffin 1:19:44 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:19:44 ... so you're saying the skills should be developed first and then the strength applied on top of that?

Chris Duffin 1:19:48 Yep.

Lex Fridman 1:19:49 Maybe you can educate me, but I actually quit lifting and power lifting for a long time after I started, um, judo, jujitsu, grappling, all the sort of combat sports, because I found that it was preventing me from relaxing my body enough to, um, load in the skill.

Chris Duffin 1:20:17 So, this isn't a problem with the, uh, training. This is a problem with you.

Lex Fridman 1:20:22 Yeah.

Chris Duffin 1:20:22 So-

Lex Fridman 1:20:23 This is a theme here.

Chris Duffin 1:20:23 ... this is actually really, really important. The first product I ever released was a loadable mace, a swinging mace.

Lex Fridman 1:20:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:20:33 And because every power lifter and body... well, not every, but most h- serious power lifters and body builders, like, shoulders' mobility is pretty limited.

Lex Fridman 1:20:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Duffin 1:20:44 And most of them really, really struggle with this. The problem is they've been taught to have tension all the time, and that's not good. So, when we talk about, like, the joint positions that we were talking about earlier and having those and the muscles in the right length and tension relationship, um, athleticism is the speed to relaxation.

Lex Fridman 1:21:05 Mm-hmm. Wow.

Chris Duffin 1:21:06 Because the counter is speed to, to speed to contraction. Float like a butterfly,