Lex Fridman PodcastCraig Jones: Jiu Jitsu, $2 Million Prize, CJI, ADCC, Ukraine & Trolling | Lex Fridman Podcast #439
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,000 words- 0:00 – 3:04
Introduction
- CJCraig Jones
So, I like to- to, uh, match looks-
- LFLex Fridman
Thank you.
- CJCraig Jones
... from time to time-
- LFLex Fridman
Thank you.
- CJCraig Jones
... in an homage.
- LFLex Fridman
You look sexy.
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
How many legs did you break in Eastern Europe?
- CJCraig Jones
Three or four.
- LFLex Fridman
To send a message, or just for your own personal enjoyment?
- CJCraig Jones
If she wins, I'll personally give her a million dollars. If I can footlock her, we're gonna collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape.
- LFLex Fridman
Did she agree to this?
- CJCraig Jones
She shook on it.
- LFLex Fridman
You do have an OnlyFans channel. Is that still up?
- CJCraig Jones
After August 17th-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... it's gonna be firing. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) It's gonna be on fire.
- CJCraig Jones
Honestly, when we talk about-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... secret investor, I think that could fund the entire tournament.
- LFLex Fridman
Amidst all that, what gives you hope?
- CJCraig Jones
That you can still make fun of anything as long as it's funny.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, martial artist, world traveler, and one of the funniest people in the sport of submission grappling. While he does make fun of himself a lot, he is legitimately one of the greatest submission grapplers in the world. And underneath the veil of nonstop sexualized Aussie humor and incessant online trolling, he is truly a kindhearted human being who's trying to do good in the world. Sometimes he does so through a bit of controversy and chaos, like with the new CJI tournament that has over $2 million in prize money, and it's coming up this Friday and Saturday. Yes, the same weekend as the prestigious ADCC tournament. The goal of CJI tournament is to grow the sport. So, you'll be able to watch it for free online, live on YouTube, and other places. All ticket profits go to charity, mainly to cancer research. So, I encourage you to support the mission of this tournament by buying tickets and going to see the event in person. Craig gave me a special link that gives you a 50% discount on the tickets. Go to lexfreedman.com/cji, and it should forward you to the right place. They're trying to sell the last few tickets now. It's a good cause. Go buy some. And also let me say, as a fan of the sport, I highly encourage you to watch both CJI and ADCC, and to celebrate athletes competing in both. From CJI with Nikki Ryan, Nicki Rod, Rotolo Brothers, Ffion Davies, Mackenzie Dern, and more, to ADCC with Gordon Ryan, Nicholas Meragoli, Giancarlo Bodoni, Rafael Lovato Jr., Micah Galvão, and more. I have a lot of respect for everyone involved. I trained with many of them regularly and consider many of them friends, including Craig, Gordon, and of course John Danaher, who I will talk to many, many more times on this podcast. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, I invite you all to come to the pool with Craig Jones and me.
- 3:04 – 5:08
$1 million in cash
- LFLex Fridman
When you brought the $1 million in cash on, uh, Rogan's podcast, did you have security with you?
- CJCraig Jones
We had security, but only by Joe Rogan's request. 'Cause he said, "You're really gonna bring it?"
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
"Do you have security?" I said, "No." He's like, "Don't worry about it. I'll send my security."
- LFLex Fridman
So, you were gonna do it without security?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, we're gonna win. I thought... I mean, I was told not to tell anyone.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
But I sent pictures of it to everyone I know.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
So, that was probably a security risk.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. So, it's just you in a car with a bag of cash.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. It was a company that sponsors me, shuffle.com. It was their friend, a friend of theirs. So, a guy that's never met me before-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
... just took the risk to show up to a stranger's house with a million dollars in cash-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
... to bring to Joe Rogan. It was a big risk of him.
- LFLex Fridman
And you just put it in the car and drove it?
- CJCraig Jones
Drove it over there, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. With no security, except Joe.
- CJCraig Jones
Except Joe.
- LFLex Fridman
That's common sense.
- CJCraig Jones
And then Joe said he'd never seen a million dollars before.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
But I don't know if I believe him. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) That's what everyone says. That's what Pablo Escobar probably says also. What's your relationship with risk?
- CJCraig Jones
With risk?
- LFLex Fridman
Especially with the risk of death.
- CJCraig Jones
I would say I'm very risk averse.
- LFLex Fridman
You are? No, you're not.
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs)
- 5:08 – 7:33
Kazakhstan
- LFLex Fridman
- CJCraig Jones
So, we're in Kazakhstan, we're doing some filming-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... in Kazakhstan, and obviously Borat's still a very traumatic memory for them.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
And some of my jokes felt like they don't go as well in that neck of the woods.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
So, we had some difficulty filming out there. So, we filmed this horse game. Have you ever heard of kokbar?
- LFLex Fridman
Thanks to you, yes.
- CJCraig Jones
It's a game, a very, very old game. They cut a- a goat or a sheep, I didn't get too close to look at it, but they cut its head and legs off and they use it as some form of ball. And then they'll have like up to 1,000 guys on horses violently trying to pick this up and drop it in the other end's goals, basically. The goals used to be concrete, now it's just the tarp. But local business owners will throw down huge amounts of money for the winners. And these horses have been trained from a very young age. The riders have been trained. I've never ridden a horse before. We wanted to film something that made it look like I was gonna go into the horse, uh, pit, into the kokbar pit.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
However, the drunk stuntman that we used just decided that when he took my horse reins, he would take me straight into the pit instead of ending the shot there. So, I was in there amongst, I guess the horse riders, the kokbar riders.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
And so we weren't leaving, we just were in there for quite a while. And he was just... He could talk a little bi- he could talk English pretty well, actually. And he's like, "Oh, I thought you'd want to check it out from the inside." And then while we're in there, someone picked up the sort of carcass, and a wave of horse riders came at me. I was quite concerned at that point-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... 'cause they're bashing into each other, and obviously they're angry they're seeing a foreigner in there. I was wearing like, basically Biggie Smalls' Coogi, Gekko-looking sweater.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
So, I stood out. They definitely didn't like that I was participating in a game that they probably trained their whole life for.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
And that amount of money they could win is very, very significant, and there's me in there. They're also pointing out, "Borat, Borat," thinking I was making Borat jokes, which again, a very traumatic memory for the people at Kazakhstan.
- LFLex Fridman
Were you making Borat jokes?
- CJCraig Jones
No, but I guess it's the same type of humor, but-
- LFLex Fridman
Sure.
- CJCraig Jones
... just, I guess, I'm not pretending to be Kazakh, I'm just there being an idiot-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
... and enjoying the local culture. But we're over there in Kazakhstan, we did that, that was obviously a bit risky.
- LFLex Fridman
Did they learn to love you?
- CJCraig Jones
I think they learnt to love me, and then to hate me again. So, it was like a bit of a all-encompassing relationship, the Kazakh people. But we, we basically abandoned
- 7:33 – 39:42
Ukraine
- CJCraig Jones
ship. It was proven too difficult to film some things, some sensitive subjects over there. And I said, "Where should we go next?" And I just looked at the map and I was like, "We're near Ukraine." Ukraine was a place that I'd been offered a, to teach a jiu-witsu seminar prior to, I guess, the war commencing, the full-scale war commencing. And we're looking for a bit of adventure, something interesting to film, something, following the news. Uh, obviously very controversial in the news, people have very strong opinions. And I was like, "Let's go over there, let's throw a charity event, let's do something, let's train with the people, and really experience it for ourselves." So, we set up this seminar. Turned out to be the biggest seminar for jiu-witsu in Ukraine history, which is wild, considering obviously they are at war. But everyone came together to support it. And one of the soldiers there, one of my friends there, good friend now, he's on the front line, he made a comment on there. And he said, "Hey," like, "this is a seminar to donate profits to the soldiers, but we're on the front line." And I was like, "You know what? I'll come to you." And he's like, "Listen, I can't promise you'll survive, but I'll promise you'll have a good time." And I said, "That's all I needed to hear." So, we connected and my friend Roman, we went really, really close. I think we're at the closest point seven kilometers from the front line. Obviously very surreal experience to be over there, seeing basically how the battle's fought with all drones.
- LFLex Fridman
How long ago was this?
- CJCraig Jones
I think it would've been March or April. So, we went there, we went basically spent two nights up on the front line. Went back to Kyiv, and that was it for that trip. In terms of crazy stuff that happened, obviously just the people living... Like, you download the, uh, air defense tracker, so at any time there could be an air siren going off, an air alert on your phone. Could be like drones heading your way, planes are in the air, missiles flying. And then those missiles will change direction and stuff, so the air alert, you don't know if it's heading a different direction, but they just sort of warn everyone. So, you live under a constant state of, of fear, basically. And then on that first trip, the heaviest moment was I was going downstairs in the hotel to work out, which is honestly a rare thing these days, doing something healthy with myself.
- LFLex Fridman
You're working out?
- CJCraig Jones
Get in the gym, pumping some iron. And this was divine intervention-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... that a hypersonic missile was shot down by the Patriot defense system just like five minutes from the hotel. So, the whole hotel and the, uh, attached gym just shook like crazy. And people started, uh, some people started freaking out. Most people went to leave, to go outside, which I don't think is recommended, but you want to see what's going on out there.
- LFLex Fridman
This was in Kyiv?
- CJCraig Jones
This was in Kyiv. So, it got shot down and then (sighs) some of the local troops actually took me to the site of where just part of the missile had landed in the ground and left this huge sort of indentation. They'd already cleared up most of the, um, I guess, shrapnel from the missile. I don't know if I should or if I was legally allowed to do this, but I took some of that-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
... missile back home with me. I don't know where I left it, actually. But I thought maybe that would raise some alarm bells and airport scans, but-
- LFLex Fridman
No.
- CJCraig Jones
... I took, I took it regardless. And that was basically the craziest thing that happened on that first trip.
- LFLex Fridman
The Patriot defense system is, is incredible.
- CJCraig Jones
Wow.
- LFLex Fridman
It's an incredible piece of technology. And that's from the United States. Uh, it's expensive-
- CJCraig Jones
Very expensive.
- LFLex Fridman
... but it's incredible. And then, so that's protecting Kyiv?
- CJCraig Jones
That's protecting Kyiv, yeah. Th- that was at the time where US hadn't, uh, voted to, I guess, keep funding the weapons over there. So, it was kind of a tense moment, 'cause I think, I don't know, everyone was thinking like, "When do those air defense missiles run out?" So, that was a heavy moment for me thinking, "Look at what it shot out the sky." Like, imagine if that didn't-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
... they didn't have that. But we... Yeah, that wa- that was probably the most surreal moment. But Kyiv largely, life goes on most of the time as per normal. I, I was faced with crazy messages and comments, even just posting that video. Like, I'm, uh, getting paid by Ukraine and stuff. And it's just like, people just don't understand that like life has to go on. Like Kyiv's here, the front line's far away. Like, the cities have to largely try to operate as normal or just life, life will not go on in those villages and cities.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, it's human nature as well. It's not just Kyiv, it's Kharkiv, it's even Donbas, uh, Kherson. People get accustomed to war quickly, 'cause, uh, it's impossible to suffer for prolonged periods of time. So, you get adj- you adjust, and you appreciate the things you still have.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, some baller moves out there. I love seeing like people that just-Crazy stuff's going on from the war, and they don't even react to it. They don't go to the bomb shelter. It's like a baller move. Like, I'm not gonna change my lifestyle. Actually, on that first trip as well, something else that I probably shouldn't have been allowed to do was go to Chernobyl.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
So Chernobyl, I believe troops came through Belarus, and there was some fighting going on in Chernobyl.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
I think the whole world got concerned at that point if any sort of radiation leaked. But Chernobyl as it stands, the troops backed down, and it's completely covered in mines. Very, very difficult to go, to go to Chernobyl. Basically, as a tourist or as like a, I guess a idiot like myself, should really probably not be allowed in a place like that.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
But we were able to get there. We passed, like, four security checkpoints. It took two attempts. First try- time we tried to go in, that was with the special forces guy. We cleared two security gates. Then they stopped us, and basically threatened us with arrest. Uh, uh, rightfully so.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- 39:42 – 47:01
Bali
- CJCraig Jones
luck- luckily for me, most of the places I traveled to, uh, jiu-jitsu gives me access to so many-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
... different individuals. It's, it's super bizarre. Like, oligarchs, royalty, I guess tech wizards. Just a, it's a strange group of people, like a cult around the world, of just, I get strange access just for being good at wrestling, wrestling dudes.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Martial arts. There's a, there's like a code and there's a respect, a mutual respect. Even if you don't know anything about the other person, if you both have done martial arts. I mean, there's similar things with judo, with jiu-jitsu, with grappling, all that. I don't know what that is.
- CJCraig Jones
It's like an inner circle. That's kind of like, 'cause this film project we're working on, it's kind of focused on that, is, uh, because of the history I have in jiu-jitsu and traveling and doing seminars and just getting access to strange experiences from the local, strange in a positive way, and participating in those experiences. That's what I sort of wanted to focus this travel show on, was the community of jiu-jitsu people around the world kind of really has no sort of ethnic background, religious background, even level of wealth. Like it so- as cheesy as it sounds, kind of a good equalizer on the mats. And that community camaraderie sort of knows no limits there.
- LFLex Fridman
Including like mats, the shittiest mats, in some small town in the middle of nowhere.
- CJCraig Jones
100%. Even like Sheik Tarnun who started ADCC, I know when he went to the US and he studied there, he would train at a very simple gym. He wouldn't declare who he was. Like I, I watched a documentary produced about sort of the story of Sheik Tarnun and how he studied in America basically in anonymity. The people at his gym didn't know who he was in his country. And he trained there, he trained with them for years, cleaned their mats like anyone else. And then they didn't realize who he was until he said, "Hey, I want to invite you to my country." But he actually meant basically as royalty, "Come." And then they realized who this guy was and the significance of him.
- LFLex Fridman
That's gangster. That's great. One of the things I love about NoGi jiu-jitsu is like you don't see rank. So, on, on a small scale, there's no hierarchy. That's, that emerges when you have the different color belts. Everybody's kind of the same. It's nice.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, you get to, like, see the skill.
- LFLex Fridman
The skill speaks, but there's just like a mutual respect and whatever. You can quickly find out who... I actually wonder if I would be able to figure out the rank of a person. Do you think you, you can, can you usually figure out how long a person's been doing jiu-jitsu?
- CJCraig Jones
I like to think with some of the aggressive clothing choices I've made and sold in the sport-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
... that that should be a beacon that that person-
- LFLex Fridman
Is a blue belt. (laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... has hopefully some talent because they're fearlessly provoking the other party there.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh. It's, (laughs) it's like in the jungle whenever there's like a, a insect that's red that is like really flamboyant looking, that means they're dangerous.
- CJCraig Jones
It's a target, yeah. The-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
... being flamboyant. Peop- if you come on the mats with something pink, a pink gi or something, people are circling in fast. (laughs) Especially in Eastern Europe. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Okay. So, uh, yeah. You mentioned the project, can you talk about that? I saw there's a preview that you showed. Craig Jones Gone Walkabout.
- CJCraig Jones
Gone Walkabout, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, so you showed a preview in Indonesia where you're both kind of celebrating, and maybe poking a bit of fun at Rickson Gracie.
- CJCraig Jones
Rickson Gracie, yes. I like to, uh, match looks-
- LFLex Fridman
Thank you.
- CJCraig Jones
... from time to time-
- LFLex Fridman
Thank you.
- CJCraig Jones
... in an homage.
- LFLex Fridman
You look sexy.
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs) It's comfortable actually, I enjoy it.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, you should keep it.
- 47:01 – 58:04
CJI
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, speaking of which, let's talk about CJI. You're putting on the CJI tournament. It's in, it's in about a week. Same weekend as ADCC. Three million dollar budget, two divisions and two super fights. Winner of each division gets one million dollars. Everyone gets $10,000. How do you even say that? Plus one?
- CJCraig Jones
10,000 plus one, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Plus one. Uh, just to compete. So, it's August 16th and 17th. Everybody should get tickets. Same weekend as ADCC, which is August 17th. (laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, so what's the mission of what you're doing there?
- CJCraig Jones
The, uh, the mission has always been, first and foremost, increase athlete pay. So, ADCC has invested a ton into the sport. Obviously, I mentioned Sheikh Tanoon. Sheikh Tanoon has done so much for the sport of grappling, particularly no-gi grappling. So, he's growing it. He has funded this for a very, very long time. But we've kind of hit a point since 2017 where the audience, the crowd watching live and at home behind a paywall, has grown considerably. We had things like Metamoris. We had the Eddie Bravo Invitational, Polaris. All these sort of professional events that have also contributed to growing the sport. And obviously, people like Gordon Ryan have definitely increased the popularity of the sport. But the payment for ADCC has never gone up, despite, again, the growth of it. So, what I did... A lot of fans were asking me earlier in the year, they said, "Craig, you gonna do ADCC?" And I said, "That is a big commitment of time, energy, expenses on steroids, to get my body ready for a tournament that I'll probably lose." And if I lose on day one, I make zero dollars.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
If I lose on-If I lose in the final, which I have done a couple of times, I on- only get $6,000. I think third place is 3,000. Fourth place is 1,000. So, if you make day two, you get paid. But for me personally, seeing ADCC 2022, you're looking out to a sold-out crowd of, like, 10,000 people. It's on Flo Grappling, which you know pay quite a bit of money for the streaming rights. I can't comment on what that number would be. And then you go home, despite having put in all that effort, with only 6,000, and they basically... The argument is you're paid in exposure. But again, there's many ways to expose yourself. You know what I mean? That's just one of the platforms to do so.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
My problem was that they announced that they were going to go from Thomas & Mack to T-Mobile, which is a jump in quality of stadium, but not a significant jump in sort of seating. So, we've gone from like 11,000-seat arena to I think a 15, 16,000-seat arena. And I knew that Flo Grappling would have had to pay more money, cause now the sport's growing so much. And I can personally kind of track the growth of the sport through selling instructional DVDs, instructional online products, cause that keeps growing. And we're targeting those white and blue belts vulnerable to internet marketing.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
And that audience continues to grow, and those will be the people that largely watch ADCC, events like this. So, I simply said, in response to a lot of fans asking me, "Why... Are you going to do ADCC?" And I just simply made a video saying, "No, probably not. Probably not. It'd be nice to make some more money." And then I listed a bunch of sports, such as kokba, that you get paid more to win kokba. In the villages of Kazakhstan, the payment structure's higher.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
And I received a very aggressive response, not from any of Sheik Tanun's people, but from basically who runs the event today. One of those guys, amongst giving me death threats said, "Hey, T-Mobile costs $2 million. You don't know what you're talking about in terms of business and production." And he's probably right. But to me, $2 million is a waste of money for a jiu-jitsu event. I don't think we're at that level yet. Like, that's where the UFC host events, you know? $2 million, that's an expensive, expensive venue. So, we argued a bit on the internet, and he said, "Hey, if you don't like it, why don't you go get $2 million and put on your own tournament?" And I said, "I might just do that."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
And one of my, uh, anonymous friends kindly donated a $3 million budget. And I actually messaged him before the show to say, "Hey, we won't reveal your identity," cause obviously anyone that has money is going to get asked for more money for... Well, or ask for money from others. So, he wants to remain anonymous. But he basically just said to enjoy the trolling aspect of it, and also contribute to the sport of jiu-jitsu.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, it's good to know that the, the anonymous funder appreciates you for who you are, Craig Jones.
- CJCraig Jones
He sees my true identity and he wants to provoke. It's- it's- it's trolling for a good cause.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
But basically, we were able to find Thomas & Mack Event Center, which was their original venue. And it just so happened to be available that same weekend, which we're very happy about. So, we booked that out. We decided to... ADCC pays 10,000 to the winner. We were like, "You know what? We'll pay $10,000 plus one to show up." So, to show up in our event, you're going to get paid more than to win ADCC. And not only that, we're gonna broadcast it for free. So, on Meta, X, and YouTube, you'll be able to watch this event for free.
- LFLex Fridman
That's amazing.
- CJCraig Jones
It's very considerate to the Flo Grappling streaming platform, I believe, to have also a free alternative on the same weekend. And the brilliance of this whole thing is, I was largely criticized for not knowing anything about business, but the people criticizing me decided to host a tournament, a 15,000-seat arena. They decided to take sponsors. They decided to use a stream platform which sells subscriptions based on the athletes that would enter it, but not give any of the talent, the athletes, a contract, which gave me this beautiful position to basically say, "Hey, what do you prefer, the prestige of an ADCC gold medal or money?" And that's the feud so far, and we put that... We put that out into the world. I didn't chase too many athletes down. Obviously, a lot of these guys really need money. So, you throw $1 million out there, people are jumping onboard. So initially, we started getting... We got two local guys here in Austin, the Tackett brothers. They jumped in first. And they're great kids. They really legitimized the whole thing, cause if... If we'd pick certain athletes, like just B-team guys straight away, it's already looking a bit dodgy. But we've got some legitimate athletes, especially the under-80-kilo division's full of... Minus two or three guys, that's the best people in the world in that weight division. And as we started to grow our roster here, what happened, I'm gonna say this allegedly for legal reasons, is that the first move ADCC did was they matched the female pay to the men's pay. So, the women always traditionally got paid less, I think $6,000 for first place. As soon as we had Ffion Davies, the, uh, reigning champion come across to do a superfight with us, bang, ADCC raised the prize money of the women's division to equal the men's. So, me being a feminist activist throughout many of my years on this earth, immediately got women's pay raised in the sport of jiu-jitsu, equalized basically, which went counter to everything the promoter had said cause he said it was out of his control to raise money. He said only the... Only the ADCC, I guess coming directly from the Sheik or the Sheik's sort of guys could raise the prize money. He got it raised. And then what happened was, once we started getting some of these big names here, so some of the best guys from ADCC would be in this division. We've got a bunch of champions or medalists, or really the top betting favorites for their divisions there.... they started, again, I can't emphasize this enough, allegedly paying show money, which has never historically been done before, to keep athletes in their show.
- LFLex Fridman
So, you're saying allegedly there were some under the table payments by ADCC? Do you have secret documents proving this? (laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
I do have the documents.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- CJCraig Jones
Now some of the guys obviously told me, you know how it is, you slap a million dollars on the table, it looks great. That was me proving I had the money.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
Which wasn't even my money to begin with, but it was basically me saying, "Hey, the money's real." No, I don't know why, but strangely a lot of people don't believe me when I'm telling the truth.
- LFLex Fridman
I don't know why they wouldn't.
- CJCraig Jones
But what logically happens is they're like, "Oh, look how much money he has, we're gonna give, like give us more show money." So, they're negotiating with me. There was one particular Brazilian businessman-
- 58:04 – 1:00:58
Gabi Garcia
- CJCraig Jones
and then Saturday night, in Las Vegas, I will be doing what many men have done before, and that is wrestling a giant woman.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) C- can you speak to that? How are you preparing, um, for this moment of violence on a Saturday night with Gabi Garcia?
- CJCraig Jones
So, Gabi Garcia is the legend of sort of women's grappling. I think she's won more than anyone else. So, between me and her, we would at least have 15 to 20 world championships, I'd imagine.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
She's huge. I say that in an endearing way.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
She might be six foot four, six foot three. And her weight varies depending on what time of the day it is, between 220 and 275 pounds, but she's gonna be coming in quite big and strong.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
Me, I am about 179 pounds right now, and a f- five foot eleven. So, it's, I've got a significant size disadvantage. She has the credentials, but we're gonna, we're gonna scrap it out. Scrap it out and see who's best, the greatest women's competitor of all time, or a guy that's never won anything.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Has it added some complexity to the picture that, you know, there's some sexual tension in the room whenever you, the two of you are together?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Or maybe I'm being romantic, but it seems like there's... You've slowly started to fall in love with each other.
- CJCraig Jones
It's been three years of seduction.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
It's been a long time.
- LFLex Fridman
It's inspiring for, for many young men that follow you (laughs) and look up to you.
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Just the, the, the romantic journey that you've been on is truly inspiring.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, I would say it's a motivational message to the guy that keeps sending DMs to a girl on Instagram for years. That maybe after three years, it could also happen for you too.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
No matter, no matter her s- her height and weight, I think, yeah, persistence is the key here.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, yeah. (laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
And we do have a wager on the line.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the wager?
- CJCraig Jones
This mi- this might be the first wager of its kind, I would hope, in combat sports history.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
If she wins, I'll personally give her a million dollars. If I can footlock her, we're gonna collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape.
- LFLex Fridman
Did she agree to this?
- CJCraig Jones
She shook on it.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Great. You do have an OnlyFans channel. Is that still up?
- 1:00:58 – 1:16:08
The Alley
- LFLex Fridman
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Can you talk about the rule set?
- CJCraig Jones
So, we're using the angled walls.... inspired by Karate Combat. Karate Combat do those angled walls.
- LFLex Fridman
Those are awesome. You're calling it the alley. That's really, really interesting. So, the -- it's like in a pit, I guess. And the angled walls are...
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. So, Karate Combat have a, a square pit. We have a rectangular alley. We like the visual of just, you're in the alley with someone, you know? You come... We both know what goes on in an alley.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
Only a couple things that could go on back there.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the second thing? Nevermind.
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
I got it.
- CJCraig Jones
But why this is brilliant, why the angled walls are brilliant for grappling, is because any grappling tournament, this goes without question, goes for IBJJF, ADCC, the reset is one of the most annoying aspects of the sport. And one of the aspects of the sport that these, some of the sneakier guys take advantage of. There's guys out there that are brilliant at playing the edge. Hoping the ref will reset them, or they'll shoot a take down near the edge. And you might watch, and again, I'm picking on ADCC here, but you might watch an ADCC match where 90 seconds of a 10-minute match is the referee grabbing them, bringing them back to the center, or trying to recreate something of a position that landed outside. Not only is that sort of boring to me, it -- and it sort of could be bias, you know? Like, again, it's happened to me in events where like I've... The ref's gone, "Stop." I've stopped. He's moved a little bit more, and then there's an adjustment in the reset. I mean, it's cheating to a certain extent, but it's just more of an annoyance. They bring it back, they reset it to the best of their ability in the center. The angled wall mitigates that. And it mitigates it in such a way that is a disadvantage to be pushed up against the angled wall. You're very easily taken down against the angled wall. You could use a cage, like the UFC does, or any sort of MMA organization. However, cage wrestling can be slow. You're obviously at the vertical and it can stagnate there. Guys are very good at using split squats to really defend that position. So, we -- and for me personally, I don't love the cage for grappling. I'd like to differentiate it for grappling. What holds people back from using the alley or a pit-like structure is the viewing, the viewing angle, because if -- obviously, if you're one of the VIPs or you pay for expensive seat, that angled wall's above you. A cage, you can see into. An elevated platform sort of stage, you can see clearly into because the a-... Because it's basically flat, but the athletes could fall off and injure themselves. So, if something happens, UFC fight passes the elevated flat stage, it's kind of scary to be near the edge. You, you go, you go off, you're going to land on concrete. You might want to do that to the other guy, if you're that way inclined. But the, the alley, the angled wall solves all those problems. Very minimal referee interference. Again, the only thing that holds people back is the expense of building it. But again, when you're spending someone else's money, you will spare no expense in production.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
So, we've spent a lot of money on the alley and we've really gone out of our way to create an experience that around the alley, we've elevated everything, so that the people watching will be able to see down into it, because a- adding, your instinctual thought is, "Oh, it sounds great, but how am I going to see in it unless I'm far up?" Like, you'd need like a coliseum-like structure and which is basically what we've attempted to create, so that you get both a perfect place to, to wrestle, to grapple in, as well as a perfect viewing angle for the fans.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, I think it's an amazing idea. What about the jiu-jitsu on a slant? You've triangled-
- CJCraig Jones
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... somebody on a slant. Is there, like some interesting aspects about the actual detailed techniques of how to be effective using a slant?
- CJCraig Jones
I'll be honest, I competed for Karate Combat twice. Never once did I ever step foot into the pit. Just again, like you said before the podcast, if there's a right way of doing things, I'm probably doing them the opposite.
- LFLex Fridman
The wrong way. I actually no idea why you, people take advice from you, but they do.
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs) I'm mostly an inspirational speaker at this point.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. You and Tony Robbins are like this.
- CJCraig Jones
Same size, at least. But in terms of the training for it, o- ob- obviously the athlete's very difficult. Some of these guys have gone out there and built their own angled walls.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, I saw that. There's a cool video of that.
- CJCraig Jones
They're getting into that. That's a smart thing to do. There's a million dollars on the line. You should probably invest in that. But I also like a new surface that no one's competed on. No one's gamed it yet. No one's like, we're going to see it unfold like, like when UFC, when people started figuring out how to use the cage. We're going to see this unfold in front of our very eyes, how the strategies work for this. The other thing we've done too is we're doing rounds. So, qualifying rounds would be three five-minute rounds. The final would be five fives. Why I want to do that is to incentivize action. We're going to incentivize action through penalizing people, but we really want... I, I love a short burst, a break, and the guys can go hard again. I don't like a jiu-jitsu match where the guy takes the back early and he's like, "Oh, if I keep this position, I've won." And that's something that people that don't compete don't realize, is if you take some-... If you get a good position early, get up on the points, you just sit there and go, "Oh, let's ride this to the end." That's why I want rounds so that you might take guys back. You really incentivize to get that finish and the way we're trying to grow the sport is to steal the MMA scoring structure, which a lot of people have criticized because they think it's overly complicated or they don't understand it. But to the mass audience, they understand a ten-point must, understand a decision in that sense. They understand it being scored round by round. So, we're trying to appeal to a broader audience here. But we think based on the structure, based on how hard we'll call stalling penalties, based on you wanting to finish your opponent quick to have a better chance at a million dollars, because it's 10,001 to show up and a million to win. If you ain't first, you're last. There's no reward for second place. So, I'm punishing the one position I've only ever been able to achieve in tournaments.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Are you worried that, uh, because of how much money is on the line people will play it careful?
- CJCraig Jones
A very generous friend of mine has provided this money. I'm like, "Unless you guys go out there and try to kill each other, and put it all on the line, I- I just won't do it again."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
Like, I'm giving you guys a massive platform. We've turned down offers from streaming platforms that wanted to buy the rights to this event because the marketing's gone very well. We're turning down money to grow the sport. The ADCC promoter said he wanted to grow the sport, so what he did is he put it behind a paywall and he used the money from the paywall to buy a more expensive arena. I don't think that's how you grow the sport. I think you grow the sport like comedians do these days. Like, guys like Mark Normand will release a special for free. Andrew Schulz did it first, release a special for free, and it grew his audience massively. I think that's what jiu-jitsu needs. We need an exciting show that's not behind a paywall that will grow the sport, grow the audience, and really then ultimately we can get to a level where it could be behind a paywall. But I just don't think we're there yet.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, I think a million dollars is a lot of money, but the opportunity here, because it's open and freely accessible by everyone, is to put on a show.
- CJCraig Jones
And then you hit a million every year. If you, this is a crazy exciting event, the funding's gonna be so easy year after year. And the other aspect we're doing too is, unfortunately I'm not gonna make any money off this thing. It's a non-profit. And the money from charity-
- 1:16:08 – 1:23:01
Gordon Ryan and Nicholas Meregali
- CJCraig Jones
- LFLex Fridman
Was there ever any chance that, uh, Gordon Ryan would enter?
- CJCraig Jones
I don't think so. I don't think so.
- LFLex Fridman
Is that something you tried?
- CJCraig Jones
Me and Gordon don't text each other too often. I tag him on Instagram and things, but he doesn't respond.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Tell me about your history with Nicholas Meregali.
- CJCraig Jones
My history with Nicholas Meregali, actually it dates back to a time where probably he does not even remember.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
Back when I used to wear a kimono. So, I went to Abu Dhabi World Pro. I was chasing my Gi dreams.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
I lost in, I can't even remember, again, probably the final. Know what I mean? I probably lost in the final against Tommy Langlaker in the weight division. This was the last year they did the absolute. I went into the absolute. I made it all the way to the semis. Nicholas Meregali destroyed me in the Gi. I did hit a nice little reversal on him though. He s- he passed my guard and I somehow reversed him from side control. That's the only part of the match I share. After which he swept me, submitted me.
- LFLex Fridman
You reversed him from side control?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. (sighs)
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. So, that could be like an instructional also.
- CJCraig Jones
That could, yeah, exactly, exactly.
- LFLex Fridman
But the right place, right time though. All right.
- CJCraig Jones
... chose instead to have some vacation time. He wanted to go on vacation, he wanted to have a relax- bit of relaxation down in Brazil. So, the match is scrapped. Flo hit me up, and they say, "Can you do February?" And this was about the time that Volks fought Islam in Perth. I was like, "No, I can't do February, because I'll be helping Volkanovski. That's going to take precedence over this match." Flo goes, "You know what we'll do? We'll announce it anyway. We'll sell those tickets anyway, we'll get the people hyped and then we'll just have you pull out." And I'm like, "All right, do whatever, do wh-..." I'm like, "Do whatever you want." That's fucking probably not a good idea, but they do that. And then people keep trying to rebook this match. But now I barely even train anymore. I'm busy being a promoter, traveling around. So now, instead of facing him in competition again, which I would do if the price was right, they'd have to pay me very well. Two of the shows have offered me the match, but the money, terrible.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think is a number that would, uh, would convince you?
- CJCraig Jones
It would have to be, I would think, half a million dollars.
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- CJCraig Jones
Otherwise, I just can't be bothered.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
You know what I mean? It'd have to be worth it. Because to put a price on a guy that takes himself as serious as Meregali... Meregali's a very serious man.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
He's talking about authenticity. He's talking about words he doesn't even understand. For me to give him the opportunity to live in a world where he had won the last match against me, it's hard to put a price on that. It's that, you know, when people say it's not about the money, it's not about the money. It's about me waking up every day knowing that he knows he lost to me.
- LFLex Fridman
So, you think you've gotten it in his head?
- CJCraig Jones
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
How do you think you would do if you were to face him for the- for the said 500,000?
- CJCraig Jones
For the 500?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
Episode duration: 2:12:04
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode J7aiEwp1x9k
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome