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Dan Gable: Olympic Wrestling, Mental Toughness & the Making of Champions | Lex Fridman Podcast #152

Dan Gable is one of the greatest Olympic athletes and wrestling coaches of all time. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Tryolabs: https://tryolabs.com/lex - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free - Grammarly: https://grammarly.com/lex to get 20% off premium - SimpliSafe: https://simplisafe.com/lex and use code LEX to get a free security camera EPISODE LINKS: Dan's Twitter: https://twitter.com/dannygable Dan's Website: https://dangable.com/ Dan's Books: https://amzn.to/2VK5nbn PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 2:56 - Russian wrestling 4:34 - Coaching the science, art, and toughness of wrestling 11:30 - The pain of defeat and the tattoo of a hawk clawing out the heart 14:29 - Roger Bannister and the 4 minute mile 17:35 - The dream of becoming an Olympic champion 20:03 - The day in 1972 of the Olympic final 23:35 - Sauna story 25:05 - Match against the Russian 30:38 - The role of fear in wrestling 35:40 - The line between physical wrestling and anger 40:18 - Tragic loss of Dan's sister 47:46 - The role of family in wrestling 53:08 - Wrestling being voted out of the Olympics 57:52 - To beat the best you must study the best 1:03:05 - The role of luck (Old Man and the Sea) CONNECT: - Subscribe to this YouTube channel - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LexFridmanPage - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

Lex FridmanhostDan Gableguest
Jan 9, 20211h 10mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:002:56

    Introduction

    1. LF

      The following is a conversation with Dan Gable from two years ago. I did not previously publish this conversation as part of this podcast, but as a separate thing, and as a result, it did not receive many listens. Let me be honest and say that while I usually don't care about how many listens or views something gets, in this one case, I feel like I failed one of my heroes. I feel I didn't properly introduce a truly special human being to an audience that might find him as inspiring as I did. Dan Gable is one of the greatest Olympic athletes of all time, bigger than records and medals. To many like myself, he's a symbol of guts, spirit, mental toughness, and relentless hard work. As a wrestler, he was undefeated in high school, undefeated in college until his very last match, and having lost that match, he found another level and became a world champion and then an Olympic champion, and most importantly, he did so perfectly dominating his opponents. He did not surrender a single point at the 1972 Olympic Games. As a coach, he led the Iowa Hawkeyes to 15 national titles and 25 consecutive Big Ten championships. He coached 152 All-Americans, 45 national champions, 106 Big Ten champions, and 12 Olympians, including eight medalists. He's the author of several books, including A Wrestling Life I and II and Coaching Wrestling Successfully. Quick mention of our sponsors, Trial Labs, a machine learning company, ExpressVPN, Grammarly writing helper tool, and SimpliSafe home security. So the choice is AI, privacy, grammar, or safety. Choose wisely, my friends, and if you wish, click the sponsor links below to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I spent a few days in Iowa and got to attend a wrestling dual meet in the historic Carver Hawkeye Arena. Part of me wanted to stay in Iowa forever to drill takedowns, to start a family, to live life simply. Wrestling is one of the purest sports, both beautiful and brutal, where both mental toughness and technical mastery of the highest form are rewarded with victory and everything else is punished with defeat, and every such loss weighs heavy on the minds of anyone who has ever stepped on the wrestling mat, including myself. The same is true for one of the greatest wrestlers in history of the sport, the man who graciously welcomed me into his home for this conversation, the legend, Dan Gable. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @lexfriedman. And now here's my conversation with Dan Gable.

  2. 2:564:34

    Russian wrestling

    1. DG

      You're persistent, and I love that because you've been trying to get me on this podcast for a long time, and until I saw you on another podcast-

    2. LF

      Yeah.

    3. DG

      ... and you said you were Russian did I call you back.

    4. LF

      Then it was over.

    5. DG

      Because Russia, to me, you know, is leading the world in wrestling almost every year.

    6. LF

      What's the difference between American wrestling and Russian wrestling? You showed me this painting.

    7. DG

      Well, it's MIT. It's science.

    8. LF

      It's science.

    9. DG

      You know, and, uh-

    10. LF

      And-

    11. DG

      ... they, they really study the sport. They're really good technically. They're really, really good in strategy. They don't really push, like, the real toughness. They don't push, like, uh, conditioning.

    12. LF

      Right.

    13. DG

      And so Americans, we need what they have. Russians need what we have.

    14. LF

      (laughs)

    15. DG

      And if when they... When you get t- two together... And for me, why I could beat the Russians is because I went their way a little bit, but I, I kept my toughness.

    16. LF

      But you're known, you're, you're known for your toughness, really at the core.

    17. DG

      Yeah, but I wasn't known for my art.

    18. LF

      (laughs)

    19. DG

      I wasn't known for my science.

    20. LF

      So when did you become a bit of an artist?

    21. DG

      It took a loss.

    22. LF

      The Larry Owens loss.

    23. DG

      You know, most people thought I was already a, a, a, an artist just because I won 181 straight matches-

    24. LF

      A dominance, yeah.

    25. DG

      ... in seven years, and not just winning, but you know, kinda punishing people.

    26. LF

      Yes.

    27. DG

      And from, from that point of view, yeah, I might have been pretty good, but I had a long ways to go yet, and I didn't really realize that, or I should've s- I should say I didn't really know how to get it out of me until I had a loss, and then I realized I gotta buckle down, learn some of that science, become more of an artist.

  3. 4:3411:30

    Coaching the science, art, and toughness of wrestling

    1. DG

    2. LF

      How do you become an artist? So that... The Russian way has this drilling technique.

    3. DG

      Mm-hmm.

    4. LF

      Thousands of reps. How do, how do you think you work on the science, the art part?

    5. DG

      You gotta study th- the best in the world. Uh, I think Dave Schultz was our guy in America that probably showed us that being artistic, you needed that.

    6. LF

      Yeah.

    7. DG

      And he studied it. He went over there as a high schooler and wrestled in some major tournaments over there, and he l- saw their ways. He used that Russian science, and then he was already an American, and he saw what... How I trained athletes. He saw what I did in the Olympics, saw what other people, how we held up, and he applied that as well. But I'd have to say he was more the artistic type. He was more of a Russian than an American when it came to, uh, uh, wrestling.

    8. LF

      You've coached 45 national champions, 106 Big Ten champions, and eight Olympic medalists, which is incredible. What is a common thread between them, and what are maybe some of the fundamental differences?

    9. DG

      (sighs) I think the common thread is that... They all had one of those two avenues that we talked already.

    10. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DG

      And because we intertwined them-... so in a Russian wrestling room, they got the same people. Most of the time in an American wrestling room, we had the same people. But when I was out recruiting, at first I recruited just attitude.

    12. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DG

      But I needed more than that. I needed some genetics in that wrestling room, to actually... That hard work people, you know, they could look and see, "Wow, that execution, that's unbelievable. But yet, I can beat that guy after the first minute."

    14. LF

      (laughs) So you think, you think, uh, the art, the, the technique, is genetics? Uh, you're born with it. You think it's not something-

    15. DG

      I think your pop and your s- you know, your ability to move, and-

    16. LF

      Timing.

    17. DG

      ... y- and timing, and your quickness, and your strength. You know, the Russians, uh, they usually picked out the people that can go into that sport. That was the old-fashioned sports school. But it- it's- it's mostly like when you see... When you walk into a wres- Russian wrestling room, you see 'em hitting skills, techniques, you know? You don't see 'em banging against each other that much. But then when practice is over, you might not see a bunch of sprints. You might see 'em walk over to the, uh, the ropes, and they drop down from the ceiling, and they'll jump up and climb a rope. Boom, boom, boom. And then they come down, and then they don't jump right back on. They have three or four other guys go, and then they jump back on. Whereas I- I probably made my guys climb 'em, get right back down, climb 'em right back again. But I also realized that I had to have a mix of that.

    18. LF

      What was the role? What was your role? I mean, those guys looked up at Dan Gable, and what was the role in helping these athletes become their best? These national champions-

    19. DG

      Well, you had to, first of all, prove that you were... Knew what you were doing.

    20. LF

      In terms of technique or in terms of hard work?

    21. DG

      Everything, everything. They just... You had to be the first guy there and the last guy to leave, and you had to be the most dedicated guy, even though they were the ones just trying to win the championships. Uh, you had to prove that you were gonna work just as hard as they were, as a coach.

    22. LF

      And what does that look like? What... So you can see it when you... You know it when you see it?

    23. DG

      Well, you- you- you're there ahead of 'em-

    24. LF

      Yeah.

    25. DG

      ... and you're there after they leave.

    26. LF

      (laughs)

    27. DG

      You know? It's that- it's that simple. I'm picking up after 'em, and you're analyzing 'em. You know, you outwork 'em. You outwork 'em, and- and you outthink 'em. And so, you know, I'll use that type of strategy. And over time, when you prove it works... Because some of my kids that were the best kids in the world really shouldn't have been a wrestler. I mean, they weren't very coordinated.

    28. LF

      (laughs) Yeah.

    29. DG

      But they worked so hard to develop themselves. See-

    30. LF

      What was your role in that process? I mean, that means pushing kids to their limit. If- if you're not core-

  4. 11:3014:29

    The pain of defeat and the tattoo of a hawk clawing out the heart

    1. DG

    2. LF

      Yeah, I mean, but that's part of it. You're putting so much heart, so much blood, and heart, and sweat, and every... You- your whole meaning of life becomes winning. So, and sometimes it's so hard to lose within that context, so if- if, and your... I think the first wrestling life, you wrote about Chad Zapatal, who lost... I mean, an incredible wrestler, but lost in three finals in the nationals, and has this tattoo of a, uh, hawk clawing out the human heart.

    3. DG

      Yeah.

    4. LF

      Yeah. So what lessons... Is there any lessons from the incredible wrestling he's done, but also the incredible suffering that he went through?... on himself.

    5. DG

      Yeah. Again, you like that word suffering, which is okay.

    6. LF

      Okay, so-

    7. DG

      But I... No, no, no, no, no. Keep it.

    8. LF

      Yeah. (laughs)

    9. DG

      Keep it 'cause it fits right in where I want.

    10. LF

      Yeah.

    11. DG

      I have to turn that suffering around-

    12. LF

      Yeah.

    13. DG

      ... to where he makes and feels good about himself-

    14. LF

      Yeah.

    15. DG

      ... or better. He doesn't have to feel perfect-

    16. LF

      Yeah.

    17. DG

      ... 'cause he did lose.

    18. LF

      Yeah.

    19. DG

      You know? And so, but you have to actually get him to realize that, yeah, he's still unique. Compared to the walk of the earth, he was unbelievably unique. Right at the top, just a little bit short of. But because it was, you know, he felt the suffering, you now have to go about and change that, and put it into goodwill some way. And because he's... you really have a lot of goodwill, you can do a lot of goodwill.

    20. LF

      Yeah.

    21. DG

      And so... And it's not easy. It took him probably years, years of tattooing-

    22. LF

      Yeah.

    23. DG

      ... years of covering the tattoos. And, you know, he told me he moved to Cali- I go, "Why are you moving to California?" 'Cause he was here for a couple years after his wrestling was done, 'cause he had a good job around here, and he was... I thought he was doing a good job, but he, he, he just... He said, "I had to escape," you know?

    24. LF

      Yeah, it's the same as the-

    25. DG

      Wrestling-

    26. LF

      ... covering up the tattoo.

    27. DG

      I had a wrestling terminology. I have to g- I, and I hate to say this-

    28. LF

      Escape.

    29. DG

      ... I ha- I hate to say this. I go, "Where are you going?" He said, "I'm gonna go to California." And I go, "Is there any reason why you're going to California?" He says, "That's where everybody goes to hide."

    30. LF

      Huh.

  5. 14:2917:35

    Roger Bannister and the 4 minute mile

    1. DG

      do.

    2. LF

      So you mentioned Roger Bannister, again, I think, in your first book.

    3. DG

      Mm-hmm.

    4. LF

      That's somebody you looked up to. That's the man who broke the four-minute mile, right?

    5. DG

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LF

      When everybody said it was impossible, everyone thought it was impossible, so-

    7. DG

      Oh, they thought he would die.

    8. LF

      ... he would die. It's not-

    9. DG

      Yeah.

    10. LF

      ... hu- it's not humanly possible.

    11. DG

      Humanly possible, no.

    12. LF

      Yeah. So what-

    13. DG

      Well, you've done your homework.

    14. LF

      For what, the book, or what?

    15. DG

      Oh, I don't know, for me.

    16. LF

      Oh, yeah.

    17. DG

      You've done your homework.

    18. LF

      Yeah, no, but... Yeah. (laughs) Uh, sent here by Putin to do research. Yeah.

    19. DG

      Yeah.

    20. LF

      So what lesson do you take from that story for yourself, the impossible, trying to accomplish the impossible?

    21. DG

      Well, the impossible is possible. (laughs) It's just that simple. Time changes things. I mean, I mean, if you looked at what, where the mile time is right now-

    22. LF

      (laughs)

    23. DG

      ... compared to that four-minute mile-

    24. LF

      Yeah.

    25. DG

      ... which when it was broke by a couple tenths or three or four tenths, it's now broke by, uh, another 20 seconds.

    26. LF

      Right. Yeah.

    27. DG

      I mean-

    28. LF

      By several hundred people, yeah.

    29. DG

      Yeah. I mean, by tons of people. And it's pretty much common knowledge that you gotta run a four-minute mile if you're gonna go somewhere now, or, uh, or below if you're gonna win at, win events at, at major level, that you gotta be able to do that. And so you, you can take that and you can look at what, in time history, has as its record performance, and you can realize that, ah, that record performance, it's gonna change.

    30. LF

      Yeah.

  6. 17:3520:03

    The dream of becoming an Olympic champion

    1. LF

      but at the individual level, in terms of the impossible-

    2. DG

      (clicks tongue)

    3. LF

      ... when did you first believe the thing that maybe probably people would laugh at you about, is... that you would be an Olympic champion?

    4. DG

      Well, I always visualized me being the best-

    5. LF

      You believed it in the very beginning?

    6. DG

      ... forever. Forever. Yeah, I was... Because I was a... I don't know if you'd call it a dreamer or somebody that... I was just involved with co- competitive sports at the YMCA from, uh, from age five.

    7. LF

      Did you tell people that dream, that you were gonna be an Olympic champion one day?

    8. DG

      I-

    9. LF

      You're gonna be the best in the world?

    10. DG

      I think they knew.... and the only reason why they knew 'cause there was something a little different about this guy.

    11. LF

      (laughs)

    12. DG

      He was, uh-

    13. LF

      He's not gonna stop. (laughs)

    14. DG

      Well, he was out in the yard.

    15. LF

      Yeah.

    16. DG

      And he was swinging baseball bats-

    17. LF

      Yeah.

    18. DG

      ... you know, at six, at seven, and eight, at nine, and 10, and he was swinging baseball bats so much right-handed and so much left-hand with nobody even there p- throwing the ball.

    19. LF

      Yeah.

    20. DG

      That all of a sudden when they walked by, they, all of a sudden, the grass was down to dirt-

    21. LF

      (laughs)

    22. DG

      ... on both sides.

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. DG

      So it's like, they saw me out in the yard playing by myself sports or, you know, we, you know, or, or, or you get the neighborhood kids and you play a lot. But if they weren't there, uh, you know, if you walked in my front room, I was hiking a ball-

    25. LF

      Hm.

    26. DG

      ... like I was the quarterback, and I was running not... and running up through the, through the furniture, you know, that type stuff. So you know, who, who saw this guy mostly was probably the parents.

    27. LF

      Yeah.

    28. DG

      And the, the coaches at the YMCA level, the junior high level, they saw this guy come first and, and end up last. But I wasn't that great. I wasn't the fastest guy at that time, and I wasn't the strongest guy. Uh, you know, actually before I went to the Olympics when they tested me, they tested everybody, and I probably came back with one of the highest scores. But it was, it was not like the highest person on this and this and that. I was all high-

    29. LF

      Across the-

    30. DG

      ... across the board, straight across the board high on every one of 'em. But there was always people that were higher than me.

  7. 20:0323:35

    The day in 1972 of the Olympic final

    1. LF

      So take me through that day if you could. 1972, when you were going for the 68-kilogram freestyle wrestling gold, you scored 57 points, if I'm correct, and had zero points scored on you. 57-0. (laughs) So maybe, uh, take me through th- almost the details. What was your routine? What was your process? What was going through your mind, your thoughts of that day?

    2. DG

      Yeah, first of all, uh, it was, it was quite a day because, uh, we weighed in every day at that time.

    3. LF

      In the m-

    4. DG

      And that, and that... Yeah, we weighed in two hours before the start of the competition.

    5. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DG

      And so that didn't mean that you weighed in two hours before you wrestled 'cause you didn't know whether you're gonna wrestle right away or later on. In fact, in that day, I don't think I wrestled, uh, until later on in the evening. So had all day to recover, but I didn't really need it anyway 'cause, uh, you know, I wasn't really pulling a whole lot of weight. But just, uh, it was just interesting.

    7. LF

      But what was in your mind? What were, what were you thinking? Were you nervous? Were you ex-

    8. DG

      I was confident. I was confident. (laughs)

    9. LF

      You knew you were gonna win the gold.

    10. DG

      Yeah, I knew I was gonna win.

    11. LF

      (laughs)

    12. DG

      Uh, but in reality, you're... I'm not... I didn't know it from a cocky point of view. I only knew it because for the last, one, two, three and a half years, I had been going to practice, and I w- I'd been winning every practice.

    13. LF

      You felt good. You were on-

    14. DG

      And I, I hardly ever lose a takedown. And if I lost a s... if I... somebody scored on me, it was like when I went to bed, I couldn't sleep until I figured it out. Or if I didn't figure it out, I would fall asleep, and I would be wo- I would wake up with the answer of what I needed why I got scored upon.

    15. LF

      So maybe now that you've won the gold, can you tell me in the practice room when somebody took you down, how, how, how do you take Dan Gable down in the re- in the practice room?

    16. DG

      Well, it's-

    17. LF

      Timing, technique.

    18. DG

      ... very difficult, but-

    19. LF

      Yes.

    20. DG

      ... somebody could because they were going for one move. All I wanted was one move. Whereas, you know, if you're gonna wrestle somebody, you're gonna wrestle them the whole practice or half a practice or at least 10, 15 minutes. And they were maybe gonna score if they could work it in their mind, but they knew that was gonna be their victory.

    21. LF

      So in the practice room, maybe you can educate me, at that m- when you're going for the Olympic gold, uh, you didn't want to allow any takedowns. So there's no such thing as working on some kind of weird position, a weak point. There's something, it's important to not let down on a m- a takedown.

    22. DG

      It's kind of like what we were saying before. If something happened and somebody scored on me in a certain way, I would go over that situation-

    23. LF

      At night.

    24. DG

      ... over that situation-

    25. LF

      Yeah, yeah.

    26. DG

      ... over it again, and I would come up with an answer, and then I would actually test it.

    27. LF

      Yeah.

    28. DG

      M- Maybe I wouldn't go right back the next day 'cause I didn't want the guy to, you know, to not have some... uh, I didn't want him to think that I was thinking about it all night. I didn't tell him. But maybe three days later when we wrestled again, I, uh, actually had it figured out because it, it... he wasn't able to. Or if... even if I was in on a take, a, a, a, an offensive move, and I got stopped and didn't score, you know, I had to go back and filter that. But it wasn't something that usually I couldn't solve.

    29. LF

      Right.

    30. DG

      I could usually solve

  8. 23:3525:05

    Sauna story

    1. DG

      it. Let's go back to the Olympic Games. So I get up in the Olympic... in the morning, and I'm not sure when the weigh-ins were, but I think I was probably a pound over, uh, you know, and that's about a half a kilo, 1.1 pounds is a kilo 'cause we went in kilograms.

    2. LF

      So what do you do with that pound? You rest off or?

    3. DG

      So no, I just, I just went over to the... they had a sauna there, and I got in the sauna. And the, and the funny thing was the morning of the, the, of the, uh, of the finals, there was, there was another athlete in the sauna.

    4. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DG

      And it was-

    6. LF

      American or?

    7. DG

      No. It was a European.... I didn't, I don't remember where she was from.

    8. LF

      Not a Russian.

    9. DG

      Well, you know what? I kinda think it was a plot.

    10. LF

      (laughs)

    11. DG

      'Cause it was a girl.

    12. LF

      Interesting.

    13. DG

      And she didn't have her top on.

    14. LF

      Oh, wow. (laughs)

    15. DG

      And that was pretty common. And so, you know, it's kinda interesting. You, y- you think back about it, because, uh, there's some funny things that, that go on behind the scenes in Olympic games, in world games, any time when you have country against country. And so, there's some crazy stuff that goes on.

    16. LF

      Mind games.

    17. DG

      Yeah.

    18. LF

      Did any of it affect you?

    19. DG

      Yeah.

    20. LF

      Did you... Was there any-

    21. DG

      Well, I almost stayed too long in the sauna.

    22. LF

      (laughs) Uh, you're... (laughs) You lo- you lost a little bit over a pound.

    23. DG

      I lost a little more than a pound.

    24. LF

      Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

    25. DG

      But, uh, but it didn't really bother me 'cause I wasn't, like...

    26. LF

      (laughs)

    27. DG

      I wasn't, like, cutting a lot of weight, so.

    28. LF

      So,

  9. 25:0530:38

    Match against the Russian

    1. LF

      your match against the Russian, the, um-

    2. DG

      Ajiliev?

    3. LF

      Yeah, Ajiliev, he's... Went on to be a two-time world champion, a silver medalist as well. I mean, this is an incredible wrestler. So, what was going through your mind, uh, before stepping on the mat with that guy? You've beaten a bunch of wrestlers, haven't had a point scored on you, and you're stepping on the mat against this Russian who you said was... Really, they picked, the Soviets picked to beat you.

    4. DG

      Right. Right, and, and I know why they picked him, because he had a great attitude. So he wasn't just the typical artist.

    5. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DG

      He was a good artist. He, he hooked elbows like Sajiliev him, and he's from that area of the- of the world where they have s- some of those types of moves. But he wa- and he was a go-er. But by cutting him down in weight, he lost some of that go.

    7. LF

      Hm.

    8. DG

      And I don't know if... Y- you gotta... That's a process you gotta go about scientifically.

    9. LF

      Yeah.

    10. DG

      You know? And so, you know, if you don't do it in, as an American, it can really hurt your performance. If you don't do it as a, a Russian, it can hurt your performance. And they already didn't really do that a lot, where you usually wrestled the weight where it was more like your weight.

    11. LF

      Yeah.

    12. DG

      And so, by cutting him down, you know, it maybe slowed his belief down a little bit.

    13. LF

      So you saw it in him, the spirit was a little bit gone when you were facing-

    14. DG

      Yeah, but then he came back and he won, you know, rest of the matches. And he was in the round robin, and he was able to go to the finals. Uh, but he had lost another match actually against... In the round robin against the Japanese. So, I, I think I had already gained enough of artistic... Being able to finish a match once I lost my match in college. For the last two years, I took on some of that artistic, uh, uh, work. And I think that, uh, he was already hoping to win.

    15. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DG

      But he was hoping to win by a long ways because he had to pin me or beat me by eight points to be able to win the gold. And, uh, you know, that wasn't gonna happen. I mean, the chances of pin is pretty good.

    17. LF

      Is it hard to pin Dan Gable versus take down? Like, have you taken risks where you could pay for them?

    18. DG

      I can't remember too many that I took-

    19. LF

      (laughs)

    20. DG

      ... uh, that would actually put me in a danger position. I've taken risks, but the risks were so scientifically, technically correct, that I wouldn't land in that danger zone.

    21. LF

      Right.

    22. DG

      It's like if I'm gonna lock up and throw you, I'm not gonna throw you to my own back-

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. DG

      ... and roll you through. I'm gonna turn in the air, and-

    25. LF

      So you were scientific about it.

    26. DG

      Yeah, exactly. I, you know, he just... I learned h- the hard way early on, there was moves from collegiate wrestling that you did that exposed your shoulders, which, uh, it cost me in some early freestyle matches against great wrestlers. But I, I would go back to my collegiate escaping type moves-

    27. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. DG

      ... to where I hit a Granby roll where you expose your shoulders and you lose two points every time. But you learn that that's not the system. But if you hadn't wrestled much, you would get exposed under maybe, um, a desperate situation, you would hit it.

    29. LF

      So, you won the gold. How did it feel?

    30. DG

      I think it would've... I think the question would be, how would it have felt if you lost the gold? For me, 'cause-

  10. 30:3835:40

    The role of fear in wrestling

    1. DG

    2. LF

      Have you ever been afraid on the mat? Does fear have any role do you think for a wrestler or it must be abso-

    3. DG

      Well, I'm sure fear is out there, and I'm sure that was to my advantage almost every time. I'm sure in my Olympic finals, Azarulayev, he had these doubts. He probably had these doubts, and that gaves, gives me the, the, the edge. And I don't know if I really ever had fear, but obviously, there was points and times where I didn't perform as well, not many, but a few. And if I look back of it... look back at it, I don't think it was that American, you know, rah-rah-rah stuff. I think it was probably the fear of, uh, not being an artist as much, you know, maybe this guy might be better than me, uh, scientifically (laughs) and, uh, you know, you're a scientist. I think that got to me more than anything else. I, I t- I said early on that I wanna eliminate ever having to worry about getting tired in a match.

    4. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DG

      So, I kind of eliminated that, so I got rid of that point and I do think that in wrestling, that is one of the fears that a lotta wrestlers have. Actually, how they feel during the match and, and do they gonna... are they gonna get tired and, and is it gonna affect my performance? And as a coach, that really was one of the things I tried to eliminate on all my athletes, so there wasn't that fear factor, but that fear factor would be put upon my opponent-

    6. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. DG

      ... which would give me an edge, uh, but that's not what I needed as much. I needed to just focus, make sure that I was doing the right things and I needed my team to be focused, so I made sure that for my es- mistakes as an athlete or even as a coach sometimes-

    8. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DG

      ... that I didn't repeat 'em, uh, didn't repeat 'em. And if you make a mistake once and then you come repeat it, eh, then it's like, uh, he didn't learn anything.

    10. LF

      Your goal throughout your wrestling career, as you've beautifully put, was to work so hard that you pass out on the mat, right? That you would be carried off the mat. So, you never did successfully and that's one of the ways you failed in your career is you've never worked so hard that you've passed out. Have you ever come close? Do you remember a time that you've come close, that you've been pushed to the limits-

    11. DG

      Oh-

    12. LF

      ... of exhaustion?

    13. DG

      You know, the question's really a good question about that pushing till you collapse.

    14. LF

      Yeah.

    15. DG

      Because I don't n- as a coach today, I don't think I could s- if I said that to my athletes, I don't know, I could get in trouble.

    16. LF

      (laughs)

    17. DG

      Uh, because, you know, it's like-

    18. LF

      But it's understood, isn't it, by the athletes?

    19. DG

      Yeah. They understand it, but the outside might not understand it because it's almost like, "What do you mean they're c- you push 'em to the point where they go collapse? That means they may die or something might happen to 'em," uh, and, you know, "That's dangerous. That's dangerous. We can't have our kid in that type of atmosphere." But it's something that's highly unlikely that's gonna happen, but I'm gonna tell you, there's many times in a practice where I had pushed myself to all of a sudden, the whistle blew or it was time to stop and when I got up off the mat or wherever I was at and I needed water, I need, I needed fresh air-

    20. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DG

      ... 'cause you're usually in a fairly small room with a lotta guys that the heat rises and, and you, you know, and it's hard to breathe. And then, I can remember... and I stayed a lot of times not by the door, the far end of the room.

    22. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. DG

      I can remember walking from the far end of the room to that door and I can remember, "Am I gonna make it the next step? Am I gonna make it the next step?"

    24. LF

      Yeah.

    25. DG

      "I need air, I need water, I need oxygen, I need to get outta here." It didn't happen often, but I can count, recount four or five times in my career that I pushed myself to that level where I thought I was gonna maybe go out, but, uh, every step I was dizzy. But once I got to that door, I was able to o- open it and go out-

    26. LF

      Yeah.

    27. DG

      ... and grab the water and get th- cold water on my face. And so, no, I never really was able to do that. And I think the story is in, in a book where my, my daughter pushed to collapse, Molly.

    28. LF

      (laughs) Made you proud. (laughs)

    29. DG

      Oh my gosh, you know, and she didn't win.

    30. LF

      Yeah. But that's a big girl.

  11. 35:4040:18

    The line between physical wrestling and anger

    1. DG

    2. LF

      So, you mention in Wrestling Life that the Brands brothers looked up to, uh, Roy Alger, who was known for pushing the limits of physical wrestling, but not getting too rough. So, how do you find the line between extreme physical wrestling, but at the same time, not rough wrestling or angry wrestling? So, that line between aggression, tough wrestling, and anger.

    3. DG

      Well, I think anger would cause less successful wrestling. I think anger would cause you to make mistakes and actually get outta position, uh, because I think anger is kind of a loss of control.... and there can be a furious type of attack.

    4. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DG

      But I think if it crosses the line to anger, then you're gonna be vulnerable. And so, Royce and the Brands wrestled to the edge, through the edge. But when the whistle blew, they stopped. And there's people that, when the whistle blows, they keep going.

    6. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. DG

      It's like in a football game, a fight breaks out and it's after the whistles blow. Well, when the whistle blew-

    8. LF

      Yes.

    9. DG

      ... they, they backed off.

    10. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DG

      So that whistle was something that, in a match, that, that kind of gave them the boundaries.

    12. LF

      But perhaps it could be a little bit of fuel. So in, in Wrestling Tough, the book that you just got from Mike Chapman, uh, the new edition, talks about Bill Cole, undefeated Northern Iowa wrestler, and, uh, how he talked about-

    13. DG

      (sighs)

    14. LF

      ... how my strength, speed, and ability to think were increased tremendously by just sitting apart from the action prior to the match, and getting into a state of controlled anger. So, can anger-

    15. DG

      Controlled anger. That's cool.

    16. LF

      Controlled.

    17. DG

      Yeah.

    18. LF

      So anger could be fuel as long as it's controlled.

    19. DG

      Right, exactly. Uh, he had that line. One side of the line, you can have an anger for performance, and the other side of the, uh, the line, you... If you go beyond that, it's not gonna be for performance. It's gonna be for not performance, 'cause you're gonna lose points.

    20. LF

      Yeah.

    21. DG

      It's a fine line. There's definitely a fine line. You're talking about Roy Salzger. You're talking about Tom Brands. You're talking about Terry Brands. I mean, you got world championship titles there. You got Olympic championship title there. You got a world silver medalist in, in, uh, in, uh, in Roy Salzger. And, you know, and that h- that's wh- when I talk to him about the world silver medalist, he's haunted by that, 'cause he was actually 20 seconds away from winning when he got beat in the end there. But that's part of the game. And it's... I don't know whether he's okay with it or not, 'cause he says every... After talking about things, he goes, "I'm okay with it now," but then he keeps talking about it.

    22. LF

      Hmm.

    23. DG

      So I don't really think he's okay with it, and I d- it's, it's hard for him to actually make amends to himself when you really don't do it. I mean, it's no matter what the situation, even with the Owings loss.

    24. LF

      Yeah. It still eats at him.

    25. DG

      I mean, yeah, I, m- I'm a world champion. He's not. And, and he wanted to be.

    26. LF

      Yeah.

    27. DG

      I'm an Olympic champion. He's not, and he wanted to be.

    28. LF

      One of the greatest coaches of all time.

    29. DG

      Y- yeah.

    30. LF

      (laughs)

  12. 40:1847:46

    Tragic loss of Dan's sister

    1. DG

      And so it still haunts him. You, you don't get away from that stuff.

    2. LF

      Yeah.

    3. DG

      I mean, it's just like anything in life that's really high. Uh, I mean, it doesn't have to be athletics. I mean, you think I'm ever gonna get over, uh, the murder of my sister?

    4. LF

      Yeah.

    5. DG

      A- and you might not even know that.

    6. LF

      Let me pause for a second. Please, you've talked about it. You've written about it. So I hope it's okay for me to say that your sister, your older sister, on May 31st, 1964 was raped and murdered by a local boy. So the echoes of pain and anger from that tragic day, do they ripple through your life still, through your wrestling-

    7. DG

      Oh.

    8. LF

      ... through your coaching, through your, the way you... when you wake up in the morning?

    9. DG

      Yeah.

    10. LF

      What is that like?

    11. DG

      Uh, it, it can be very emotional to me under certain circumstances. And it, and it can be the mood I'm in.

    12. LF

      Right.

    13. DG

      You know, it can be, maybe if I've had a Mountain Dew or-

    14. LF

      (laughs)

    15. DG

      ... or maybe if I've had a Gable beer.

    16. LF

      Yeah.

    17. DG

      (laughs) Yeah, or, or, or, uh, or maybe if you turn the country music up a little bit loud. Uh, you know, it, emotions come out. And everybody has them, uh, in their life. It just so happens, you know, what brings it out. And hopefully, it's nothing that you do to the extreme point of... to where it brings it out. For me, it's not extreme. I don't have to have any of that, really, and I can get emotional.

    18. LF

      How did that change you as a man?

    19. DG

      What it did was realize that I was already pretty well developed, because I was only a sophomore, 15 years old, in high school. And I had parents that weren't making it, and my parents are a lot (laughs) older than me. And now that we're down just to me and my parents, and I'm gonna be around the house for no- another two years-... and they had just lost a- a- a daughter that was the only- uh, only other sibling. Uh, (smacks lips) they weren't handling it.

    20. LF

      Yeah.

    21. DG

      They- they were the ones that were suffering much more than me, even though I always look back upon one area that I wasn't good at, was communication at that time-

    22. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. DG

      ... except inside the dressing room, 'cause I had been tipped off. And-

    24. LF

      Tipped off, what do you mean?

    25. DG

      Well, the neighbor always said that, something to me about my sister just-

    26. LF

      Oh, yes.

    27. DG

      ... three weeks before that-

    28. LF

      That's right.

    29. DG

      ... that really wasn't normal or practical. And I said nothing to nobody.

    30. LF

      You- you don't... (sighs) Is there a part of you that blames yourself?

  13. 47:4653:08

    The role of family in wrestling

    1. DG

      get off track.

    2. LF

      What do you think is the role of family in wrestling?

    3. DG

      Oh.

    4. LF

      Can a man do it alone? And if not, w- where is family most important?

    5. DG

      You know, you could do it alone, but why would you want to?

    6. LF

      (laughs) Yeah.

    7. DG

      I think the chances of doing it alone are much less than the chances of doing it together.

    8. LF

      Yeah.

    9. DG

      I know they say don't bring your profession home. Sometimes they say that.

    10. LF

      (laughs)

    11. DG

      (laughs) But it's probably never... I never got away from my profession.

    12. LF

      Yeah.

    13. DG

      And, you know, sometimes I... (smacks lips) It's like my house right here. So when I'm moving home and I'm not gonna have an office 'cause I'm not gonna coach anymore or I'm not gonna be an assistant athletic director for a while, that you gotta do something that-... gives you a little bit of a break. Not you necessarily. Maybe the person you're living with.

    14. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DG

      And so, I don't know if you looked outside there, I got a cabin right out in my backyard. You probably can't see it right there, but...

    16. LF

      What's in the cabin?

    17. DG

      That's my house away from my house. It's only 30 feet from my house, and it's, uh, my office, and it's my workout room. It's my... I got a sauna there. It's, it's a bed upstairs if I need it. If I ever, uh, get too close and she says, "Hey, why don't you go sleep in the other house?"

    18. LF

      (Laughs) .

    19. DG

      But, you know, kicks me out of the bed, but (laughs) -

    20. LF

      Get the heck out.

    21. DG

      ... it's never happened.

    22. LF

      Yeah.

    23. DG

      But I do spend a lot of time out there, and, uh, it's, uh... You know, you gotta have a little distance sometimes. You know, and you gotta know your, gotta know your role. And so, all of a sudden, when you're a guy that's been gone your whole life from 8 o'clock in the morning till close to 7:30 or 8 o'clock at night, so 11, 12 hours a day, then all of a sudden, you're not gone as much, even though you still work. She's trying to slow me down now. I'm doing a... Not so much, like, here, what we're doing right now, but it's when I get in the car and drive somewhere or fly somewhere. You know, like, just last night, I was... went to bed, and I hadn't told her that this guy called me and he wants me to, uh, speak for a b- uh... Uh, they wanna build ano-... Wrestling wants to start another Wrestlers in Business networking out in, uh, Delaware because we don't have any colleges in wrestling in Delaware.

    24. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    25. DG

      And so I said, "Well, you know, you know, I'll gladly do that 'cause that's my life," you know? So... But then, all of a sudden, I sh- uh... I didn't say anything to my wife until, all of a sudden, this morning. And I told her that I might go on the Friday the 21st of December.

    26. LF

      Oh, no (laughs) .

    27. DG

      Well, that... Well, I said, "That's not... It's Christmas." She goes, "We're celebrating Christmas that weekend early because a lot of the family can't be on... be here except for that weekend."

    28. LF

      Yeah.

    29. DG

      And I said, "Oh, well, that's not gonna work." But I kind of didn't say anything to her at first and then sh-... Well, I tell you, she started getting a little emotional. And if I wanna stay married for another year, 45 years, then I better tell those people that-

    30. LF

      Yeah.

  14. 53:0857:52

    Wrestling being voted out of the Olympics

    1. LF

      there. In 2013, the International Olympic Committee, IOC, voted wrestling out of the Olympics. So, a lot of folks know about this, the absurdity of it and so on. But in a big picture, you can step back now. It's five years later. What did you learn from that experience?

    2. DG

      Well, first of all, did it surprise me?

    3. LF

      (Laughs) .

    4. DG

      Yeah. But did it really surprise me? No. You gotta run... You gotta have people running the organization that are top-notch. If you take anything for granted, and you're not the person of authority, somebody can kick you out.

    5. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DG

      And even though we had a lot of authority because we're wrestling, we're the, one of the first sports in the Olympics ever. And that we, uh, think that, you know, we're in 180 some countries and, uh, some of the number one countries in the world that are politically strong have the sport.

    7. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DG

      You know, we thought we were okay. But then you gotta look and see who's running the IOC. The IOC, the International Olympic Committee.

    9. LF

      Yeah.

    10. DG

      And then you gotta see that in wrestling, we don't have anybody in there. I mean, that shocked me. We've never had anybody on the IOC-

    11. LF

      Yeah.

    12. DG

      ... from wrestling.

    13. LF

      Yeah.

    14. DG

      You know why? Because we didn't have to-...but, yes, that's wrong. You have to. And if you don't have somebody looking out for you right within the structure, then it's pretty easy, people turning their head.

    15. LF

      Yeah.

    16. DG

      But all it took was the statement, "You guys are kicked out of the Olympics. You guys are done."

    17. LF

      (laughs) Everybody came together-

    18. DG

      And then-

    19. LF

      ... and team up.

    20. DG

      Well, yeah. I mean, it's the first time in ever, in history, that probably all this com- competitive people-

    21. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DG

      ... that were working for their own agenda turned that agenda to the sport. And that... So, that made a big difference, and we got a lot done. In fact, in America, there was several people that were really out there that we didn't know about-

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. DG

      ... until this point in time. And when they came aboard, now they're still aboard. Th- that doesn't mean we're doing everything perfect, because just because we got voted back in before we even got kicked out, really, that doesn't mean we're by any means safe.

    25. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DG

      We have to do some of the things that I'm talking about, or some of the things that we didn't do before. We can't fall right back into the same mess.

    27. LF

      Yes.

    28. DG

      And so, our leadership got changed, and it's better, but it's gotta stay better. But there are things that we could still be doing to make sure that we don't have situations like this happen. I'll tell you, when I first learned about it, I was like... I broke down and wept.

    29. LF

      Yeah.

    30. DG

      Again. It's like every once in a while, I'll break down and, and, and cry about my sister.

  15. 57:521:03:05

    To beat the best you must study the best

    1. LF

      Uh, so, so that's wh- the IOC, there's politics, and you're sort of being very pragmatic. But stepping back, wrestling is one of the oldest forms of combat, period. Dating back... There's cave drawings 15,000 years ago. And if you look at, uh, the ancient Olympics, the Greek Olympics 2,700 years ago, did, did you ever, when you wrestled or coached, do you now see wrestling in this way of freestyle and folkstyle wrestling, the purity of sort of two human beings locked in combat, the, the roots of that as just human beings, this fair struggle between two men or two women?

    2. DG

      I don't think I ever looked at it... as anything but just to... uh, combat. And... I think there's times that have made me figure out how to make that combat better. There's little markers or little points in time in your life that make you wonder, or I should say determined, to be able to get more out of yourself-

    3. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DG

      ... and to be able to take it to a new level. And I don't think people can actually feel that way unless you've actually had a lot of accomplishments in, in anything. I think there's anything out there. I mean, no matter what sport or, or breaking the four-minute mile. I mean, when you broke that... when they broke that... Roger Bannister broke that four-minute mile, I can't imagine him breaking it from his best time being 4:30.

    5. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DG

      You know, it's one of these things that along the line there, that he did... had some close calls or he had some coaching that was giving him the opportunity to become a little better. But I think because he was doing well-

    7. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DG

      ... and being very successful, that the opportunity came. And so, for me, it's like the same thing. I had so much success, and so many practices that went well, and so much goodness out of this sport, that it gave me the opportunity to really look more finite and look more how I can even make it better. And so, it's like, if you look at my library upstairs, I got a library upstairs, and there's a lot of books up there from the family, and... But if you look at Gable books up there, I got a lot of, uh, Russian technique books.

    9. LF

      (laughs)

    10. DG

      I can't read the book, but I can see the diagrams.... and I can see this, the figures. They don't really show it in pictures. They do it in drawings.

    11. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DG

      And, and so it was like when I was trying to beat the best, that is labeled the best because they win the World Championships every year-

    13. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DG

      ... since they've been just about involved, and I don't think they got started involved until like the '50s. But, but, you know, it's something, you know, you study the best who's out there. But then you don't focus so much on the best that you can't beat the best. You learn from them. But there's something that they don't have that you can have.

    15. LF

      Toughness to technique, to-

    16. DG

      Yeah.

    17. LF

      ... the art, to the science.

    18. DG

      Yeah, all that stuff. And that's why I, even talking to you and you're sitting over there and you love MIT and you're bragging about it over Harvard, you know-

    19. LF

      (laughs)

    20. DG

      Uh, you know, it's-

    21. LF

      'Cause it's true. (laughs)

    22. DG

      Well, in your eyes, and, and, and that's-

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. DG

      ... and that's great, and it might be. But, uh, but it, it's the same type of thing that, um, you know, there's something that you're probably stealing from Harvard.

    25. LF

      Yeah.

    26. DG

      But, but you won't give them credit.

    27. LF

      Well, Dan, in the interest of time, uh, I've read that you're pretty serious, you're pretty seriously into fishing. So what's the biggest fish you ever caught?

    28. DG

      Oh.

    29. LF

      What are we talking about here? Are we, you're talking about-

    30. DG

      No, it's, I don't think I've ever caught a big ocean fish. I'm not, I'm a river lake fisherman.

  16. 1:03:051:09:56

    The role of luck (Old Man and the Sea)

    1. LF

      I don't know if you know this, a book by Hemingway called Old Man and the Sea.

    2. DG

      Heard of it.

    3. LF

      And, uh-

    4. DG

      Ernest Hemingway?

    5. LF

      Ernest Hemingway, yeah.

    6. DG

      Yeah.

    7. LF

      And he, uh, there's a, there's an old man that basically, uh, catches an 18-footer, but it, can't pull it in, doesn't have the strength. So they together spend, uh, while the sharks eat away at it. I mean, it's this very powerful story. I think it won him the Nobel Prize. But he says, "It's better to be lucky." The old man says, "It's better to be lucky, but I would rather be exact. That, that, that way, when luck comes, you're ready." So let me ask, uh, what do you think about luck? Do you believe in free will, that we have actions that control the direction and destination of our life? Or does luck and some other outside forces really land you where you end up?

    8. DG

      For me, I'm not about luck. But I do think there is, luck is involved. But I think it's mostly created, uh, just how lucky you are through preparations. And things happen, things have happened in my life forever, and a lot of good things. And a lot of people could say, "Hey, you've been pretty lucky to win all these awards." I don't know, if you analyze my life, I don't think it was involved with luck. You know, I think it was more involved with preparation. And, you know, and, and again, science, had you been smarter, had you understood that you could do some things and be just as lucky-

    9. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DG

      ... that'd be great. But I'm only as smart as today. So when I was training in my life, and me even training people in my life, as of that moment, that's how lucky I am to, uh, be able to, um, have whatever is available to me.

    11. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DG

      And that's what, you call that a lot of science. So for me, I, I think that, uh, you know, like right now if I look back, uh, yeah, I'd do a lot of things different, uh, just because things are proven differently. Like, I'd give people water during practice, and I did. And I would let them change their running, wrestling shoes into running shoes to run sprints on the concrete. Or I would actually maybe, um, maybe I had a guy climb 12 ropes after practice, one after another, and then maybe the next day, I'd do it again. Uh, you know, I might not make him do it the next day. I might let him recover a little bit more. And, uh, uh, y- you gotta learn, keep adding to your philosophy. And your ph- philosophy may have been great at that time, but it's at that time. And what is really important is where are you at with this time, today. And so there's better ways to do things. Now, if you ever take attitude out of it and just depend on total science, then, you know, you're not gonna be as, as, um... You know, I think it's, I, I listen to a couple people that are really pretty famous people. Uh, and one of them was John Irving. He was-

    13. LF

      Mm.

    14. DG

      ... a writer.

    15. LF

      Yeah.

    16. DG

      And he told me, he says, "You think I really learned how to be a great writer in, uh, writing school?" I s- uh, he said, "Yeah, I learned a lot there. But really what gave me the ability to stay focused, to s- to work extra hours, to be more disciplined, was wrestling practices."

    17. LF

      (laughs) That's right.

    18. DG

      He said, he goes-

    19. LF

      He was a wrestler, yeah.

    20. DG

      Yeah. He goes, "I go back to that. That's what gave me that chance." You know, and, and, uh, there's a guy in Iowa that, um-... guy named Norman Borlaug. He, um, he, he learned, he, he, he invented a process to feed the underprivileged countries of the world, and he was a wrestler. And he said the same thing, and he, and he worked extremely hard, and he said, uh, "I give a lot of credit to the sport of wrestling. Uh, and even though I was- I'm known for this and I got a statue in, in Wa- Washington DC because I saved a billion lives plus, uh, I'm gonna give wrestling a lot of credit." So, you know, I think some of these MMA stars-

    21. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DG

      ... and some of these guys that maybe weren't wrestlers that had to wrestle- wrestle- had to fight wrestling guys and stuff missed a little bit there. But I think the ones that did have wrestling probably have a really good chance and can adapt to the other ones. But, you know, I think e- every martial art or every activity is good, and you probably can't skip any. But I don't think they're ever gonna overlook and say that wrestling's not pre- pretty not- or not valuable, because it is.

    23. LF

      (laughs)

    24. DG

      However, that doesn't mean you're gonna make it. You still gotta take the values and apply it whatever area you're gonna be in. And, and some people forget that. Some people can't get over the highness of getting your arm raised in a wrestling match. And I- And you know what, what's even greater than me getting my arm raised, is that I- if I'm a coach, or if I was belong with you, that you get your arm raised.

    25. LF

      Yeah.

    26. DG

      And even if you don't get your arm raised, it's what you walk away with and how, and how you, uh, learn to, um, handle that as well. Because there's gonna be some losses, but you don't want many.

    27. LF

      (laughs)

    28. DG

      'Cause, uh, you don't wanna get used to losing, I can tell you that.

    29. LF

      So it's the hunger for the win, it's the brotherhood, the sisterhood of the wrestling room, and it's hard work and science that's gonna beat luck, uh, at the end of the day.

    30. DG

      Absolutely. That luck, you know, I'm, you know, I- I- I like luck, but I think it's created by, um, the opportunity that, that-

Episode duration: 1:10:01

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