Lex Fridman PodcastDan Reynolds: Imagine Dragons | Lex Fridman Podcast #290
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,004 words- 0:00 – 1:49
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
When you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine?
- DRDan Reynolds
No. It's- it's kind of a- a- just a s- a... I never think opening, I never think final. I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now. So it could be the middle of the song for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm- when I'm doing that. But my process for me is very much lyrics, and melody, and music really come at the same time. Like, I f- by same time, I mean, I'm- I'm, uh, a- as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I'm feeling like (imitates percussion) like, it's not that simple, but it's, like, I'll- I'll hear it. Like, it's like here's all the orchestra and you're kinda just pressing all the buttons at once. And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Dan Reynolds, the lead singer of Imagine Dragons, one of the most popular bands in the world, with over 75 million records sold and with four songs being streamed over a billion times on Spotify. Given all that, Dan is one of the most down to earth, kind, thoughtful, and fascinating human beings I've ever met, grounded in part by his lifelong struggle with mental health. The darkness, the love, and the creative brilliance are all there in this one humble mind. For this reason, and many others, we became fast friends. Plus, he recently started his journey in programming, which funny enough, is where we start this wide-ranging, deeply personal, and fun conversation. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Dan Reynolds.
- 1:49 – 20:50
Programming
- LFLex Fridman
So we were talking offline that you're not just getting into programming. What- what's, uh, the most beautiful program you've ever written? Something that brought you joy.
- DRDan Reynolds
I... there's something... I really love completion. It's the reason that I'm addicted to songwriting. I like there being nothing and then having some blocks or tools and building them into what you want it to look like and th- and then I find it incredibly rewarding to stand back and- and look at what you did at the end. It could be anything. For me, it's- it was as simple to begin with as just, you know... because it's ar- object oriented, like making a cube move. Like, that... as simple as that. Understanding that and knowing that I built that and made it do that is really rewarding. Uh, and I think it's the thing that drew me into- to wanting to learn more. But as far as what is some grandio- like, some big piece of code that I've done, like, absolutely not. It's more I'm still at a level where it's more like, "What is a tutorial that I followed-"
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- DRDan Reynolds
... and- and got, you know? And- and then, you know... Yeah. So I- I couldn't say I'm at a level where I've done anything beautiful at all in code.
- LFLex Fridman
But you're also interested in potentially... like, your heart is drawn to creating games.
- DRDan Reynolds
Creating anything, um...
- LFLex Fridman
And completing it.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
That's the good... the feel good is it's done.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah. I've- I- I mean, I've been working over the last two years, um, with actually a team out of Kiev, uh, on... and- and we can get into that, it's a whole 'nother story, but on a computer game. And really have kept that kind of under- under wraps, but... yeah, we're kind of getting to a point now where we have a prototype that we can play and it's a lot of fun and- and, uh, thankfully all the team members are in safe places now. Things have obviously been on hold for a little bit, but, you know, when that started is when I really decided, "Okay, I need to understand base level coding in C# so I'm not an idiot talking to these people when..."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
And, uh... so it's... you know, we've been doing that for a couple years.
- LFLex Fridman
Is there any parallels between the final completion that you feel with programming, which I think is a little bit more definitive. Like, there's debugging, the code doesn't work, it's messy and so on. There's the early design stages, you're not sure, like, how to have functions in classes, how it's all gonna work, and then it comes together, and then it's really done because it works and there's a cube moving on the screen.
- DRDan Reynolds
Right. Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, is there any parallels between that and music? 'Cause are you really ever done-done with a song?
- DRDan Reynolds
Y- yeah, it's- it's exactly the same thing for me, just in that it's art. Um, I- I really believe that we have not fully encapsulated artists. Like, wh- when we say art, I think most people think, "Okay, the medium must be painting, or drawing, or music, or writing," but I really believe anytime you're creating something, s- uh, engineers for instance, you're- you're creating something with tools that you have and it can be incredibly beautiful. Um, and so yeah, I think... and it's never done. I feel like I look at songs that I've done and I never felt... you have to let go or I have to let go, and that's all I've... I'm just con- continually making myself let go. But I look at songs that I've done and wish I had done more or kept going down that road and what would have happened and I'm really contained to... because of what our band is and- and what our fans expect and... there's so much more to it that it's like I'm fitting in a box always. Um, you know, it's like, "This song shouldn't- shouldn't be longer than three minutes and 30 seconds in." I don't know if I remember the chorus after I heard it. Maybe I need to hear the chorus three times instead of those two times. It's like, there's- there's certain... especially in pop music, it's really hard to...Um, yeah. It's you, you, there's con- it feels like there's confines, even though people are like, "Well, there's no confines." But still, everybody's writing a pop song that's a few minutes and...
- LFLex Fridman
Are those explicit in your mind or are they just kinda ... Yeah. The gut is, like you said, chorus. Should you have chorus once, twice, or three times? Is that a gut thing or is that a rule thing?
- DRDan Reynolds
You know, I think it's a rule. I mean, it's obviously a rule I impose on myself. Nobody's, nobody's in my house saying, "Hey, Dan. If you don't do this, I'm gonna punish you." (laughs) Like, there's no major label president that's like, "Imagine Dragons needs to make pop music, Dan." You know what I mean? My manager doesn't even tell me that. I, I do it because it's what I perceive to be enjoyable. I, I grew up listening to a ton of pop music and I ... Then I ended up being in what is, quote unquote, "a rock band," which I've never perceived it as that, but that's kinda what the world has, has called it and, and that's fine, but, um ...
- LFLex Fridman
So you're a prisoner of a prison that you yourself constructed. There you go.
- DRDan Reynolds
Well, I'm ha-
- LFLex Fridman
The confines are yours.
- DRDan Reynolds
I'm a happy ... I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm a happy prisoner of the prison that I have created for myself.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) That's good.
- DRDan Reynolds
And I made that prison thinking that it was a mansion.
- LFLex Fridman
So you worked with Rick Rubin. What does Rick think about your prison? (laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
Rick, uh, (laughs) Rick was, Rick was ... You know, it was interesting to hear his outside opinion when we first met 'cause my biggest focus for so much of my life, my biggest fear was, and I ... This stems from, I think, middle school is when it started, but everyone being in on a joke except for yourself. I re- like, the thought of thinking you're good at something and really you're terrible at it and you're surrounded by people who are saying, "Yeah, you're good at it." And then by themselves they're like, "He's terrible at this." Just kind of ... And, and, and not just in regards to music or art, but anything in life. And I think maybe from having six older brothers, it stems from that too.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
Like, always feeling inadequate and, like, the annoying younger brother.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
You know? Um, but anyway, so Rick's ... And that's something I've learned to let go of as I've gotten older and, and, and had life experiences, but one of the things that Rick said really early on that has stuck with me was he said, "Yeah, you know ..." We were, we were Zooming the first time we met. He said, "I'd, I'd really like to work with you because I feel like you don't ... You're not confined to a sound. You've done a lot of different sounds and so it's exciting because I feel like your fans are forgiving more than other rock bands or bands." 'Cause most people when they hear, you know, I don't ... When they hear a band, it's like there's a very specific sound with it. It's like they do folk music. Oh, they do, like, California rock or they do surf or they do, you know. Like, there's ... And your fans kind of want that. Like, they want them to do that thing and then they don't do it. And sometimes that goes well, but a lotta times it doesn't. And people, you know, critics and everybody is like, "Go back to the thing that you did good and do that." Rick was, felt, whether he's, he was right or wrong, that we could, we could do ... We, we hopped genres so much. And that's been to our benefit and detriment, I think. Um-
- 20:50 – 25:44
Johnny Depp and Amber Heard
- LFLex Fridman
um, on a small tangent on that, just, uh, as a, as a curious question. Have you paid any attention to the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trials?
- DRDan Reynolds
I have, uh, watched quite a bit of it, because my wife really loves it and she watches it in bed at night. Um...
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So it's raw, like, uh, to me it's real- 'Cause you, uh, you've mentioned how complicated love can be, and it's, I've never seen... I don't care about the celebrity nature of it. I don't care if it was... I don't care who it is.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
But it's just laid out s- in such raw form. The, uh-
- DRDan Reynolds
For the world to see it.
- LFLex Fridman
For the world to see the toxicity but also the passion and, and the clearly sort of, uh, the drugs and the drinking, but also, like, the longing and the dreams and, "I will always be with you, I will die for you."
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
The, the, the places, the, the roller coaster of love and it's all there at the end, past the end. So it's like, um... I've also recently re-read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (laughs) about, uh, Hitler and Nazi Germany. It's the rise and the fall, and it's interesting to look at the entirety of that process after it's all over, many, many decades after it's all over. That book in particular, written by the person that was actually there. And so here we're seeing two people in the context of the courtroom, analyzing this rise and fall of a love affair. (laughs) It's fascinating.
- DRDan Reynolds
You know, the truth is, I was telling my wife this actually just the other day 'cause we- she was asking what I thought about it. It makes me really sad. It, it's, it's humorous, don't get me wrong. There's a lot of parts in it that are just really funny, like... But-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... I look at it and I also see the internet, uh, uh, you know, someone's always the villain and someone's the hero. Which is such a funny thing, and we, we talked about, a little about this offline before we got on this, but I have a real firm belief in life that it's just more complex than you think. Always, always. And we, and, and Johnny for instance is very charismatic, and, and you, you love him and he's funny and his, the way he does things and he looks certain ways and he says things. He, he's just... You really love him, and I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but it looks like the internet has really been like, "Johnny is the winner. Amber is, is the villain." And, and I-
- LFLex Fridman
Amber is, yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... kind of look at it... Yeah, and I kind of look at it and I feel like, were any of you in their bedroom?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
Like, were any of you there for these things? And I'm not saying one way or the other. Like, the... All I see when I look at that is, uh, two people with a lot of deep seeded hurt, anger, and that anger is so poisonous to both of them, and they're g- and they're getting through it in the way that they only know how. And I'm, I'm not saying we should, you know, we shouldn't be able to look at parts of it and laugh about it and stuff, and, and, and be virtuous or something, but just that there's not a hero. I, I, I-
- LFLex Fridman
It's more complicated.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah. I think, uh, unless you're, you've been living with Amber and Johnny, you don't know. Just 'cause one seems more charismatic in the moment or funnier or more believable even, doesn't mean that their truth is the truth.
- LFLex Fridman
And I, I feel like there's still love there too, which makes the whole thing-
- DRDan Reynolds
Oh, that's the hardest part. He won't even look at her.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
He looks down the whole time. And maybe people say, "Well, it's 'cause anger or, or hurt," or whatever. But I s- the way that she looks and stuff, it feels... It just feels like there's so much hurt there.... that it hurt, it hurts me to watch it. I just feel like, oh, my heart just, like, aches for them and, and for both of them. And I, I don't know either of them personally and, and, you know, I don't know. It just hurts.
- LFLex Fridman
But it's, I've never, I've never seen sort of love laid out in this raw kind of way. It makes me, uh, feel better about, like, it almost gives you... Seeing people who have gone through a struggle in this sort of mundane kind of way gives you room to struggle yourself about the messiness of love.
- DRDan Reynolds
So true.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, you're supposed to, like, relationship are supposed to be simple and whatever, but this, like, oh man, this-
- DRDan Reynolds
It's like art.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
Uh, and, and for the record, like, I don't feel like it shouldn't be shown. Like, I think it's actually really beautiful art. And I agree there's gonna be a lot of people who walk away from it and are changed in certain ways or look at things different. I'm not saying it's changing the whole world, the Johnny Depp trial, but it's hard. It's just like you would look at a painting, it might affect you. Um, my only commentary is more that there's not, I think it's silly when people say who's right and who's wrong and who's the clear villain and who's the... Like, we love as human, we have to have an answer for every, we have to put everything in a box and it's like, well, we're looking at this and we're deciding you're right and you're wrong. And, and I just think that's, it's silly unless it's your life.
- 25:44 – 30:45
Las Vegas
- DRDan Reynolds
- LFLex Fridman
So speaking of heroes and villains and highs and lows, you grew up in Las Vegas, and you've said that Vegas is a performing town, a town of high stakes, drama, and eccentricity. It's a town of high highs and low lows. And I'll be damned if my therapist didn't point out that correlation out to me personally a long time ago. Uh, so to me, Vegas from the outside is romanticized by certain movies. The lows define the beauty of this town and, uh, certain movies. So to me, Casino, uh, with Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci and, and Sharon Stone, um, Leaving Las Vegas with Nicholas Cage, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas with, uh, uh, (laughs) with the Johnny Depp playing, uh, Hunter S. Thompson. First of all, what's your favorite representation of Vegas from a darker side? And do you draw any wisdom, insight from the, the, the darkness, the lows and the highs from, in, in those movies? Or is it over-romanticized?
- DRDan Reynolds
So I, I grew up in a really conservative Mormon family, and Vegas was established by the Mormons and the mob. Those were like the two very different worlds that created what Vegas is.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
And if you live in Vegas, it really shows in a lot of ways because Vegas has the, you know, the strip and the parties and the craziness, but it also has very, like, neighborhoods and, and big families and conservative people and, and, and, and liberal people living together in a really interesting way. And for me, growing up here, for instance, was a lot of like driving on the freeway and my mom being like, "Children, close your eyes. There's a naked woman on that billboard." And every-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... "Okay, mom," on our way to church. You know what I mean? It was like, but also being like, "Whoa, this is crazy. This is..."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
You know what I mean? Like-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
... take, taking in whatever I could when I could.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
Um, so I saw... And I'm grateful for that. Like, I really love that I didn't grow up as a Mormon in, for instance, like Utah or some, like the typical place, uh, because I, I saw both sides and I appreciated something from both sides. And now as a person now who's not religious but just spiritually minded, you know, I, I, I'm grateful for that divergent character, that juxtaposition, dual-edged sword that Vegas is, and I try to apply that to everything in life, which is, it's like Johnny Depp and Amber. It's like there's two sides to every story. There's always two sides to every coin. There's always, and there's something to be said for both. Like, I try to see people and, and even if, you know, it- it's just, yeah, I try to apply that to life. As far as a movie that personifies Vegas or an- or something in, in that medium that personifies Vegas in, in a way that, that resonates with me-
- LFLex Fridman
Don't say Hangover.
- DRDan Reynolds
No, no, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
I, I, I also, like, I wasn't even allowed to watch PG-13 movies growing up.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh.
- DRDan Reynolds
So I, a, a lot of the movies that you're saying, like I, I didn't, I either didn't see, I didn't have cable television, you know. I wasn't like a pilgrim, but I had a really, really conservative upbringing.
- LFLex Fridman
So it didn't define your-
- DRDan Reynolds
No, it's like-
- LFLex Fridman
... intellectual, like, development?
- DRDan Reynolds
No, no, I just, uh, I can't think of any movie that comes to mind where I'm like, "That's my Vegas movie." You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure, I've seen some of the movies you've said now, but I don't, I can't think of one that I'm like, actually personifies Vegas in a way that feels honest to me. Like, or, or, or, like, wasn't there a Chevy Cha- was there a Chevy Chase?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
I think that's maybe the only one I thought of that came to mind where I was like, because I love Chevy Chase so much that-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... maybe it's one of his, uh, Vegas, Vegas Vacation or something?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. So, but that's more, like, lighthearted-
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... surge, that kind of stuff.
- 30:45 – 33:58
Spirituality
- LFLex Fridman
so you mentioned your spirituality. You've, um, you said that having a crisis of faith, or just the- the philosophical question of asking, "Who is God? Does God exist?" Or, and thinking of the flip side of that, of mortality, "What happens when we die?" Those kinds of things were extremely difficult, uh, deep, um, things for you, uh, in- in terms of your development, the whole process of figuring that out. Um, why does it hurt so much to lose faith in God?
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah, I would say that f- the seeking of God, let's say that, is an obsession for me, and has been since I was young. I- I really feel that I'm a deep, deep, deeply, like, committed to finding answers in life. And there's some answers that I don't think there's an answer to, and I'm also very OCD by nature, so I just don't give up to that. I'm like, "Well, there must be, somewhere in Tibet, there's some teacher..." Or there's- there's somebody out there that has the answer, or maybe it's yet to be found, I'm gonna find it. Um, I'm really... My life has com- been, to date, probably unhealthily committed to finding answers about God, or the lack thereof, and, um, mortality. It's all I sing about. It's all our records have been about.
- LFLex Fridman
Who do you think is God? Have you ever gotten a glimpse?
- DRDan Reynolds
You know, I will say the closest I feel like I have been to experiencing God is, uh... And this sounds so, um, maybe... I don't know. I don't know how it sounds, but is through ayahuasca for me. That's- that's my honest answer for you. I feel like I'd pretty much given up all hope of there being anything greater than, you know, us being... You know, evolving and being here and then dying, and you're gone, and that's it. And nothingness... And from nothingness we came, and nothingness we go, to where I am now, which is, there are answers to be found. I don't know them. Like, I don't know what God looks like, or if God is anything to do with the word "God" in the way that we say it, but I do believe, pretty fervently, that there is more to be, uh, found.
- LFLex Fridman
Is it motion sensor, or no?
- DRDan Reynolds
I don't know what that was. ... Looked like they've all died, actually. Do you know which one is it? Is it this one right here?
- LFLex Fridman
No. ... (crosstalk)
- DRDan Reynolds
Why not? It's that one. Yeah, yeah. Why not? It's that one. Yeah, yeah. Why not take it out? But then it's, like, too dark, and...
- LFLex Fridman
No, that's fine. I'll get it.
- DRDan Reynolds
I'll take it out. Do you wanna hold this chair? Let's see if I can get it like this. Yeah, it's definitely this one, because it's clinking. Almost there. I really don't know how I'm gonna catch this, though. (laughs) Ugh. There's gotta be, like, some saying about this. There we go. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
A Chinese proverb? (laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, how many people does it take to... What is it? Unscrew a lightbulb?
- DRDan Reynolds
A lightbulb.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
It was hot, too. It was like... I was doing, like, the two-finger, like, technique.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah,
- 33:58 – 44:16
Ayahuasca
- LFLex Fridman
yeah. Well, I'm glad you survived that.
- DRDan Reynolds
Thanks. (exhales)
- LFLex Fridman
That'd be pretty ironic if we're talking about mortality, and then this would be it for you.
- DRDan Reynolds
(laughs) In that moment. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Um, I've never done ayahuasca. So, it's a- it's a mixture of two plants, one of them is DMT, but a lot of people I really respect, very, very intelligent people, had profound experiences with i- with ayahuasca. What is that? What- what... Where do you go? Where does the mind go? What- what the heck is up with that? (laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
I'll- I'll first say that I am... Like, I can't even smoke weed. I really do not enjoy it, uh, because I hate to let go of control. Uh, like, if I feel out of control in life, it's, like, one of my biggest weaknesses. It's, like, very scary for me. I don't... And- and some people, you know, really enjoy letting go in that way. (sniffs) I really don't. So, I was pretty terrified to make the jump then to ayahuasca. But my wife, who I deeply respect, um, (sighs) made a profound change, uh, through ayahuasca. And I saw it.
- LFLex Fridman
She led the way.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah. And it wasn't a strange... Like, I think most... We have a thing in America that's very... Like, a misconception, a stigma on psychedelics where, you know, it's like... It's a drug, and it makes some people crazy, and then you're gonna be on the street, and you're gonna be out of your mind, or you're gonna become, like, you know, a crazy person, basically. And I think I really bought into that notion because, again, I was raised... I wasn't even raised with cable TV, you know what I mean? (laughs) Like, ayahuasca is very... Like, (laughs) I didn't... You know. You can imagine what that was like for a Mormon kid. I didn't know anything about it and never touched drugs at all, and never even touched a cigarette, you know. Um, anyway, so I think we have this misconception about it, where Americans are quick to go to their doctor and take any medication or drug. Um, but, you know, whoa when it comes to, like, psychedelics. Uh, anyway, that being said, I... So I had that trepidation going into it, but I really love and respect my wife, and I saw it make a profound impact in her life, where she suddenly was able to (sighs) heal from a lot of trauma that she has. She had a really... She went through a lot in her life, and it- it really helped her heal. But it also set her on a new path, spiritually, that seemed really like a place that I wanted to be.So I did it, and I did it twice. The first time, it didn't really have an effect on me, which happens to a lot of people, I guess. Um, I drank, you know, this little thing, and there was, like, this shaman who came over from overseas that was really... Had been in, in the plant, you know, world for decades, and was a really incredible, um... I don't even know if he likes to be called Shaman, um, but...
- LFLex Fridman
So is it supposed to be, like, 30, 60 minutes to take effect and a few hours, uh, th- the, the journey lasts?
- DRDan Reynolds
About four, four hours.
- LFLex Fridman
Four hours.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah, so the second time I took it, I took, took it in, in, I would say, 20, 30 minutes in exactly. I started to, I started to feel like I was, like the dimension of what is reality, w- the curtain was pulled open, and there was a lot more to discover, and it really blew my mind in a way that I think it would probably blow anybody's mind if, for instance, God descended or-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... some Christian God or whatever it is. We all think it'd be this beautiful thing, but in reality, it would probably make people super fearful and think that they've lost their mind. Um, like I've always... Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
I've always, like, joked that if the Mormon God came down and told my mom, like, if God Himself came down and told my mom, "Mormonism is incorrect," she would say, "Satan."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
You know? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
It's like we're never... I think our minds are just not prepared for a lot of, of, uh, of anything that's really extreme, and it was very extreme. It was like the curtain of life was, was cut open, which scared me, but then I felt very much, and a lot of people that I've talked to have a similar thing, where I feel very much like I was either communicating with something that was perceived as God to me or highest sense of self or mind or Mother Earth or, you know, it's called so many different names. But it's really... It's very... Uh, a lot of people have a very spiritual similar experience with ayahuasca, uh, in, in, just in that it's like this kind of profoundness. It wasn't like, there was nothing, uh, at least for me, that was, um, that felt like just like my, like psychedelic funny cartoons or something. It was like, "I'm about to go on a journey, and it's, and I'm gonna communic- I'm communicating with something that feels incredibly wise." Showed me a lot of things in my life fr- kind of almost like from a bird's eye, almost like I was looking through a video camera at a younger me. There was a particular thing that it communicated to me. Um, I really have a hard time with, with s- accepting success and not feeling, um, like feeling undeserving or something, I can't quite put it into words, but of, of my position and what I've been given. I've been given s- so much, um, and it showed me this thing from when I was young and explained to me why I am where I am now, and, and I, I... To this day, like, it, it did not feel like myself telling myself that. That's the only way I can explain it, like... And there was a lot more that it showed me and, and that was incredibly healing for me, but just in... To be s- like, to put it into a short thing 'cause there's s- so much to this. It felt v-... I walked away feeling very convinced that there is more to be known for sure, and a lot of my deep, like, things that were traumatic for me didn't feel traumatic anymore, specifically crisis of faith. I was very angry at my parents and my community for raising me in what I perceived to be falsehoods. Um, and that, and, and that, uh, I felt like the bedrock of everything I believed was ripped out from me in my 20s, and then it was like, "Good luck in life." But really, my parents had given me everything that they could, and they believe that very much so still, but, uh, a naive young me was angry and felt like they had been duped, and thus I had been duped. But ayahuasca really showed me this roadmap of like, "This is truth, and you're concerning yourself about a grain of sand, which is Mormonism or whatever it is. And there may be some truths in that tiny grain of sand, and there may be falsities, but so is all these other grains of sand. Like, focus on the truth. Stop focusing on these little details that are meaningless, and forgive and let go of people believing in those things to begin with." I don't know if that makes sense, but that was like the core thing I was taught and to let go of control, stop needing to control everything.
- LFLex Fridman
And it felt like the wisdom was coming from elsewhere, like it's-
- DRDan Reynolds
It really... I do not believe... At least in my current self, I don't have that, th- the mindfulness that I believe that exists in me to, to reach a lot of the conclusions that I did, and there was a lot more to it that would be for, like, a late night conversation with you. But it's so hard to put it into... You feel like a crazy person. Any, at least a- anytime I talk about ayahuasca to someone who hasn't done it, um, like, I don't even know where to begin, like-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
How do you explain to someone that you felt like that an, a multiple dimension type thing happened in a way that, like, putting it into words is... And none of it was words, by the way, that was communicated to me. It was like, you know how people talk about, um, telepathy, and if it, if it existed, it would be like, "I could communicate to you in such a deeper way. I'm so confined by me having to articulate these words and put them into a sentence to you, Lex, and then tell you, like, if only I could just be like..."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
And, and emotions do that sometimes, right? You could see my emotions and be like, "Oh, that, that communicates a lot." So that's what it felt like to me with ayahuasca, is it felt like it was communicating to me very clear things, but it wasn't like, "Daniel, it's me, Mother Earth."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
"Let me sh- let me... Relax, sit back. Let me show you." But...But it very, it was very clear to me what was being said. And no, it did not feel like me. Uh, but maybe science and smarter people than me who have done it would say, "Well, it was you, blah, blah, blah." Like, I don't know, but-
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, yeah. There- there's-
- DRDan Reynolds
... it was very convincing.
- 44:16 – 48:01
Depression and fame
- LFLex Fridman
so in terms of crisis of faith, in terms of your search for truth, in terms of some of the dark places you've gone in your mind, uh, what's a good answer to this question? Uh, so f- for Camus with The Myth of Sisyphus, it was, uh, the question of suicide is, what's the purpose? Like, what's a good answer to why keep going? Especially when you're struggling, especially when you're not, um... when you're he- feeling hopeless, when you're feeling like a burden, in this search for truth where you feel like you're surrounded by lies, what's a good answer to why live?
- DRDan Reynolds
I think-
- LFLex Fridman
You ever find one?
- DRDan Reynolds
M- well, it's as if... The simple answer right now is to say for... It's very easy once you have kids to say the right answer is you just, of course, you brought these kids into the world, so you have a responsibility that I feel deeply as a father to them to always be there for as long as I humanly can, and to take care of them and protect them. It's the most innate sense in me, just, you know, it's d- it's wired in my animal, my animal existence. So if I take that away, right? Because that's kind of cheating.
- LFLex Fridman
Let's put that aside because it is cheating.
- DRDan Reynolds
It's cheating.
- LFLex Fridman
There's still, you're still, there's still some fundamental way in which you're alone.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah. And to that, um, that, that actually has been a real struggle for me for, for many years. I had a real turning point early in my career where we were flying somewhere overseas, and we're in a really small plane, and the lights went out and, like, all these red lights were flashing and the plane just started to dive. Completely, like, scariest plane experience I've ever been in. My manager was next to me, who's my brother. He was crying and texting his wife a goodbye. That's how, like, (laughs) crazy this moment was.
- LFLex Fridman
Was it real, like genuine that the plane-
- DRDan Reynolds
Genuine-
- LFLex Fridman
... was real like this?
- DRDan Reynolds
Like, genuine engine went out, plane is going down, pilot's looking like crazy in the front, and it was a really tiny jet. And, m- and like I said, my brother next to me crying, typing a text to his wife. Really, really scary. And I felt nothing. I genuin- genuinely sat there and I was like, "This might actually be nice." Like, I, I really felt like this goes down and like, "Ah, man, life sucks and it's hard." And that sounds so ridiculous, I know, to say because I, again, I, like, I'm in a different place now and I see my life for what it is, but at that moment I did not.
- LFLex Fridman
So life was primarily defined by suffering, it was a burden?
- DRDan Reynolds
It wa- it was. I felt-
- LFLex Fridman
And this is a burden lifted.
- DRDan Reynolds
... I was incredibly depressed. I had been all, trying different m- m- medications since I was young, and I just had not found anything that was working for me. And then I was in a faith crisis, lost all my faith, um, started a band that's t- just became... I wasn't ever thinking that this band... I was like, when you call your band Imagine Dragons you're not thinking, "That band's (laughs) gonna be big," okay?
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- DRDan Reynolds
It was like... (laughs) I was like... This was like a side project that was fun for me. It was like art in college. I was at, in school and I was like, "Man, I hate this biology class. I'm gonna write down band names." Like, you know what I mean? Like, it was not, "Hey, put everything aside, this is my career. Let's go." Like, it just, it happened. And
- 48:01 – 1:00:39
Introvert
- DRDan Reynolds
I'm an introvert by nature. It's, I'm really not an extroverted person who likes to go out and, like... I like to be at home with a couple friends and have a late-night conversation over good food. Like, that to me is a perfect night. Read a good book, listen to a podcast, go on a walk, um, you know, those are things that I really, really enjoy. And suddenly I'm in this life where I'm, like, supposed to be something that I really don't want to be. Except for on stage, which is a really fasten- like, strange thing to me, which is on stage I feel so free and exuberant and like an extrovert, and then I come off and I just feel, like, shrivel back into a shell. Like, it's a, it's... I, I, I... Music does that for me and performing on a stage does that for me.
- LFLex Fridman
Can we take a small tangent on that?
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the high? Can we go through that, the introvert...... that wants to cuddle up and read a book. You're the front man of one of the, if not the biggest rock bands today, uh, playing in front of huge crowds. What's the high of that, and how can you land back on Earth?
- DRDan Reynolds
The high of it is it's incredibly beautiful to walk on a stage, sing these songs that you wrote, and see it resonate with people around you and sing with them, different cultures, different places, celebrate life. It suddenly the world seems like a fantastic place. It feels like we're all on the same team.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Well, it's like one big hug.
- DRDan Reynolds
Right? 'Cause... Yeah, it's like everybody in that room gets it. And they all, like it, it, it just... It f- it feels like what you want the world to be, which is just, like, this coexisting unit of people, and it's not even about, like, m- you know, I g- I just... It's incredible. It's in- for sure, it's incredible, and I love it, and I wouldn't do it unless I loved it. And then you walk offstage, and you turn on the news, and it's like you see, you know, we're all against each other. Everybody hates each other, and it f- it feels that way in the world. So music really... That's why live music is so important to people. That's why music is so important to people, 'cause even if it's just you and that person that wrote the song, you're listening to it, and the two of you feel connected, you know? It's like you're hearing Tracy Chapman sing, like, Fast Car or something. You're just like, "Oh my gosh," like, "Yes, I get it." And you feel connected to that person. You don't feel alone, like... So that's the high of it, for sure. And then you get offstage, and then, (sighs) you know? As my, like, my uncle's a heart surgeon, incredible heart surgeon, who, like, writes the book. Like, he's like the guy that the heart surgeons talk to. He's out of Nashville, Tennessee. He's just an incredible, genius man. He, um, always worries and always reached out to me. He's like, "Musicians die all the time, and the reason they die, you know, is because you're getting on stage, and your heart's doing this, and your cortisone levels are doing this. You're getting offstage, and then you're just doing this." And it's a really real thing. Like, yeah, you get offstage, and you feel like you need drugs, 'cause you're like, "I..."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
"The world feels like, oh, incredibly daunting." And it's also, I'm sure, has to do with, like, some s- some, like, health things in your heart and the cortisone levels that are so crazy, and then you come off. And it's like... I know people are like, "Well, then nothing's enough except meth." You know (laughs) what I mean? Like...
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... nothing's enough except heroin.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
And that's why a lot of artists turn to that stuff, and, and I don't say it in a, a preach- I don't say it in a preachy way. Like, I've struggled with drug abuse in my life, and I really... I, I understand why artists turn to it. Um...
- LFLex Fridman
But also the fact that you're an introvert. So the other side of it, the fame. That's something that you also said is a double-edged sword for you. The interesting thing about fame is that, you also mentioned, is it's something you can't take back.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So it's a thing. (laughs) You can't just, like, go on vacation to Hawaii, and it's like, consider do I like it or not? No, you're staying in Hawaii for the rest of your life.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And you've never been (laughs) there before, whether you like it or not.
- DRDan Reynolds
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
So, um, what's that like being, you know, loved by millions and millions and millions of people, which is, uh, perhaps the best kind of fame, in terms of if you had to choose the kinds of fames there are-
- DRDan Reynolds
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... and still being an introvert and all that kinda stuff. So what, um... Do you feel... Do you feel alone, more alone being famous? (laughs) Is there a loneliness to it?
- DRDan Reynolds
There's... Yeah, I mean, it's so- it's such a funny thing 'cause for... Okay, if you had asked... If we were having this conversation a couple years ago, I'd be incredibly guarded about this, because y- the last thing I want to ever do is sound ungrateful-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... or unaware of how much I have, and woe is the famous celebrity with money.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
"Oh, is your life hard? Is it really... Tell me about how hard it is." But I'm also at a place in life now where I just M- like, I'm gonna always just speak my truth, because that's the only reason I'm here is I'm here to speak my truth to you, so I'm gonna tell you my truth, whether it's whatever it is.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, you're human, and feelings are real, and so... And you-
- DRDan Reynolds
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
And that's the interesting thing. You win the lottery, what's that gonna feel like? It's not about complaining, "Oh, it's so hard to win the lottery 'cause you get a lotta money." No, it's still... You're human, and you get to experience these feelings, and it's fascinating. You put humans in different situations-
- 1:00:39 – 1:13:18
Advice from Charlie Sheen
- DRDan Reynolds
Uh, you know, I, I'm fortunate to have my manager, who's my brother, my older brother, and my lawyer is my other older brother. And that's been helpful because no ma-, like, it's weird. It gets weird with everyone, no matter what. One of the best advice (laughs) I was given was by, uh...Charlie Sheen.
- LFLex Fridman
You got advice from Charlie Sheen?
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah, we were playing, uh, late night television-
- LFLex Fridman
The wise sage of our generation.
- DRDan Reynolds
(laughs) Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
Wise sage, sage Charlie Sheen. But he- it was, it was really wise. I s- I was sitting next to him, and we were, we were, um, playing some late night television, and he said... This was right at the beginning. And he just said, "Boys, just mark my words, your life is about to get really weird." That's all he said. But it stuck with me forever. And it's Charlie Sheen, so of course it sticks with you. And I remember being like, "Right, right. Okay, Charlie Sheen."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
I'm not Charlie Sheen. It's not gonna get weird. Like, you know. Um, but it got really, really weird, really quick. Because suddenly, you've existed your whole life in this way where everybody just... Everything you get, you achieved, it was because you got it. And, and, and every conversation you had, like, if someone liked you at the end of that conversation, well, it's 'cause they liked you.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DRDan Reynolds
If they didn't like you, it's 'cause they didn't like you. And you can make complete peace with that. At least I could my whole life. I was like, "Life is a challenge." And be myself, and I'm gonna go through it, and find some people along the way that I connect with, and others know, and... That social integrity is so (laughs) important to us. And we think it would be nice to have this ... And it, this is going back to the, the pitfalls of fame. We think it would be nice to walk into a room and have everyone be like ... (clapping)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
And you could be like, "Dumpster fire." And everybody's like, "Oh my gosh, dumpster fire-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
... was amazing."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
"Oh, how you said dumpster fire was amazing."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
It's like, it's incredibly, incredibly lonely.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
And it just breaks everything that you knew about humanness.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
And it sucks. So then you're seeking out people who that it doesn't exist with. And, and family is the closest you can get to that, for sure. But even your family is ... It's gonna take a little bit where they're like, "Oh, this is a little weird. Like, all my friends at work are now asking about you. And you're my young, stupid brother, but now you're suddenly, like, the young, stupid brother that they want an autograph from and stuff." And it's a- and it still makes ... Like, they have to get over that and figure that out. And, and, um ...
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DRDan Reynolds
And then you meet people too who know about this whole concept, and they're like, "Well, I'm gonna be an asshole to him to show him that I don't subscribe." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yes. Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
So then you're dealing with, like, people who are like, "Dumpster fire," and the person who's like ... You know. You could say something actually profound and nice, and they'd be like, "That's stupid, and you're an idiot."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DRDan Reynolds
It- it- because it's like an actual attempt to, like, show you how much they don't care. So you live in this very, like (laughs) this-
- LFLex Fridman
And still, nevertheless, even when nobody knew you, you were seeking for deep human connection with a small number of people. And now when a lot of people know you, you're still looking for deep connection with a small number of people. (laughs)
- 1:13:18 – 1:25:53
Making music
- DRDan Reynolds
- LFLex Fridman
So, you told the story of, uh, how you wrote the, the song Believer, or, like, um, your, your, your ch- childhood friend, I guess, uh, Donald, like, like, bullying and that kind of stuff. Th- this song, you know, a lot of your songs are super interesting, uh, sort of, uh, in terms of percussion, super interesting, super interesting lyrically, just how it flows, and also pain is at the center of it. I mean, a lot of, like, like you said, the crisis of faith (laughs) . Some of these existential questions are basically behind a lot of your songs, funny enough. Um, maybe they're covered in metaphor, so it's hard to see, uh, but it's there. And this song is really, is really interesting in that way that it puts, uh, you know, pain, "You made me a believer. You break me down, you build me up, believer." That's so interesting. Um, maybe can you tell the s- the story of how this song came to be? I'd love to listen to it too. I, I have some questions musically about it too.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, um, it's exactly what we're talking about with therapy. I just feel like the greatest things in my life have come from the deepest hurt. Like, losing someone, you know, that you love is maybe the hardest part of the human path for me, at, at least thus far. Like, I, I, when I think of, "Okay, what was the hardest thing?" There's like, okay, that, you know, there's, like, you think of physical pain, or, or maybe, like, going through financial pain or whatever. I think losing someone that you really love to death is on- is one of the hardest. It, uh, for me, I would say it was the hardest. And, um, but it also makes you look at your life completely differently, and alter your life, at least for me, in ways that were really healthy. Um, being more present, uh, letting go of things that were meaningless, t- trying to control what other people think about you, like, wasting your time on things like that. And you suddenly see, like, wow, like, time (exhales) I got small amount of time. Like, how do I wanna spend it? I'm gonna spend it in the best way I know how and that's it. So, yeah, I mean, that's, it's a, it's a basic comment, co- concept that's been said a million times over in a million different ways. But that's pretty much what I was trying to say with Believer, which is like, I'd lost faith in, faith in everything, uh, at that time period. And, you know, or previous to that time period, and then I was rebuilding my faith, or my, my spiritual thought process. And it was after ayahuasca and it was like, you know, finding, being a believer and, and that's, and, and that's not necessarily like a believer in God or a believer in heaven and hell or anything like that, but a believer in more. Believing in, in, in goodness, believing in that there is some light. Like, and, and again, those words, like, they're just words, and I wish there were better words to formulate the thought that I'm trying to express. But just more, uh, like the thought of me dying, for me, I don't fear it. I don't fear it. But actually I, I really fear not seeing my kids again. I'll say that. That is fearful f- for me. I feel like I love so deeply these children that the thought of, like, leaving them for me is a s- is a, a scary thought or some- something like that.
- LFLex Fridman
They're, they're kind of good reminder how much you love life actually.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And you don't always remember that.
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah. And, uh, I think having kids is not for everyone, for absolutely for sure. But for me, and especially you shouldn't be having kids to give yourself a reason to live (laughs) . You know what I mean? Like, "I feel like dying, I'm gonna have a kid." (laughs) . Like, you might feel more like dying after having a kid actually (laughs) , you know?
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) It's pretty stressful. Uh, but it is a place to, like, I've changed a lot of people that I've known, that it gave them a new intensity of gratitude for life, for sure. Uh, do you mind if we, I'll return to the, the, the pain and the believer. Do you mind if we listen to a little bit of the song?
- DRDan Reynolds
No.
- LFLex Fridman
Did you write the music first or the words first? Did it come together?
- DRDan Reynolds
Uh, the same time, which is very typical for me. But, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
Like, just the way it opens, like, how... You know, intensity of openings. Do you ever think about, like, what the first few seconds sound like? Is that something that-
- DRDan Reynolds
Um-
- LFLex Fridman
Like, when you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine?
- DRDan Reynolds
No, it's, it's kind of a, a, just a s- a... I never think opening, I never think final. I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now. So, it could be the middle of the song for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm, when I'm doing that. But my process for me is very much lyrics and melody and music really come at the same time. Like, I f- by same time, I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, a- as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I'm feeling like (beatboxes) . Like, it's not that simple, but it's like I'll, I'll hear it, like, it's like here's all the orchestra and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once. And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments. You know what I mean? It's just utilizing one instrument.
- LFLex Fridman
So, you're seeing the landscape, and that landscape includes melody, includes percussion, lyrics-
- DRDan Reynolds
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... a little bit? Or lyrics?
- DRDan Reynolds
Lyrics were, will be words to begin with, like, a word here and there.
- LFLex Fridman
And that's-
- DRDan Reynolds
Like, I'll be like (beatboxes) . You know, and I'm like, "What's a word that I'm thinking of when I'm feeling this soundscape?" And, uh, I always create with no theme in mind. I'm never...For- for better or for worse, just my process is, I'm sitting down, and I'm writing a journal entry. Simple as that. It's like, when you sit down to write a journal entry, are you sitting down and you're like, "Okay, I have all these words here that I'm gonna put on the page, and I'm gonna order it in this way, and my theme of, for my journal entry today is going to be this"? Maybe some people do, but I don't. My journal entry is, "I don't know what I'm gonna say. Oh, how was today? Well, man, today was this, and feeling this, and now that I think about that, I'm really angry about that. That hurt my feelings when this happened." (laughs) You're like, you're formulating it as you go, and that's the joy of it, and for me, that's what music is. So, I'll sit down not thinking, "Hey, I've been wanting to write a song that has a hard beat," or, "I've been wanting to write a song that's anthemic," or, "I've been wanting to write a song that's..." It's like, how am I feeling right now?
- LFLex Fridman
And it's joyful? With, is the feeling joyful to you, or is it struggle?
Episode duration: 2:12:00
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