Dan Reynolds: Imagine Dragons | Lex Fridman Podcast #290

Lex Fridman 0:00 When you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine?

Dan Reynolds 0:04 No. It's- it's kind of a- a- just a s- a... I never think opening, I never think final. I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now. So it could be the middle of the song for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm- when I'm doing that. But my process for me is very much lyrics, and melody, and music really come at the same time. Like, I f- by same time, I mean, I'm- I'm, uh, a- as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I'm feeling like (imitates percussion) like, it's not that simple, but it's, like, I'll- I'll hear it. Like, it's like here's all the orchestra and you're kinda just pressing all the buttons at once. And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments.

Lex Fridman 0:53 The following is a conversation with Dan Reynolds, the lead singer of Imagine Dragons, one of the most popular bands in the world, with over 75 million records sold and with four songs being streamed over a billion times on Spotify. Given all that, Dan is one of the most down to earth, kind, thoughtful, and fascinating human beings I've ever met, grounded in part by his lifelong struggle with mental health. The darkness, the love, and the creative brilliance are all there in this one humble mind. For this reason, and many others, we became fast friends. Plus, he recently started his journey in programming, which funny enough, is where we start this wide-ranging, deeply personal, and fun conversation. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Dan Reynolds.

Lex Fridman 1:49 So we were talking offline that you're not just getting into programming. What- what's, uh, the most beautiful program you've ever written? Something that brought you joy.

Dan Reynolds 2:00 I... there's something... I really love completion. It's the reason that I'm addicted to songwriting. I like there being nothing and then having some blocks or tools and building them into what you want it to look like and th- and then I find it incredibly rewarding to stand back and- and look at what you did at the end. It could be anything. For me, it's- it was as simple to begin with as just, you know... because it's ar- object oriented, like making a cube move. Like, that... as simple as that. Understanding that and knowing that I built that and made it do that is really rewarding. Uh, and I think it's the thing that drew me into- to wanting to learn more. But as far as what is some grandio- like, some big piece of code that I've done, like, absolutely not. It's more I'm still at a level where it's more like, "What is a tutorial that I followed-"

Lex Fridman 2:58 Right.

Dan Reynolds 2:58 ... and- and got, you know? And- and then, you know... Yeah. So I- I couldn't say I'm at a level where I've done anything beautiful at all in code.

Lex Fridman 3:06 But you're also interested in potentially... like, your heart is drawn to creating games.

Dan Reynolds 3:12 Creating anything, um...

Lex Fridman 3:14 And completing it.

Dan Reynolds 3:15 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 3:15 That's the good... the feel good is it's done.

Dan Reynolds 3:18 Yeah. I've- I- I mean, I've been working over the last two years, um, with actually a team out of Kiev, uh, on... and- and we can get into that, it's a whole 'nother story, but on a computer game. And really have kept that kind of under- under wraps, but... yeah, we're kind of getting to a point now where we have a prototype that we can play and it's a lot of fun and- and, uh, thankfully all the team members are in safe places now. Things have obviously been on hold for a little bit, but, you know, when that started is when I really decided, "Okay, I need to understand base level coding in C# so I'm not an idiot talking to these people when..."

Lex Fridman 3:56 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 3:56 And, uh... so it's... you know, we've been doing that for a couple years.

Lex Fridman 3:59 Is there any parallels between the final completion that you feel with programming, which I think is a little bit more definitive. Like, there's debugging, the code doesn't work, it's messy and so on. There's the early design stages, you're not sure, like, how to have functions in classes, how it's all gonna work, and then it comes together, and then it's really done because it works and there's a cube moving on the screen.

Dan Reynolds 4:20 Right. Right.

Lex Fridman 4:20 Uh, is there any parallels between that and music? 'Cause are you really ever done-done with a song?

Dan Reynolds 4:28 Y- yeah, it's- it's exactly the same thing for me, just in that it's art. Um, I- I really believe that we have not fully encapsulated artists. Like, wh- when we say art, I think most people think, "Okay, the medium must be painting, or drawing, or music, or writing," but I really believe anytime you're creating something, s- uh, engineers for instance, you're- you're creating something with tools that you have and it can be incredibly beautiful. Um, and so yeah, I think... and it's never done. I feel like I look at songs that I've done and I never felt... you have to let go or I have to let go, and that's all I've... I'm just con- continually making myself let go. But I look at songs that I've done and wish I had done more or kept going down that road and what would have happened and I'm really contained to... because of what our band is and- and what our fans expect and... there's so much more to it that it's like I'm fitting in a box always. Um, you know, it's like, "This song shouldn't- shouldn't be longer than three minutes and 30 seconds in." I don't know if I remember the chorus after I heard it. Maybe I need to hear the chorus three times instead of those two times. It's like, there's- there's certain... especially in pop music, it's really hard to...Um, yeah. It's you, you, there's con- it feels like there's confines, even though people are like, "Well, there's no confines." But still, everybody's writing a pop song that's a few minutes and...

Lex Fridman 6:07 Are those explicit in your mind or are they just kinda ... Yeah. The gut is, like you said, chorus. Should you have chorus once, twice, or three times? Is that a gut thing or is that a rule thing?

Dan Reynolds 6:17 You know, I think it's a rule. I mean, it's obviously a rule I impose on myself. Nobody's, nobody's in my house saying, "Hey, Dan. If you don't do this, I'm gonna punish you." (laughs) Like, there's no major label president that's like, "Imagine Dragons needs to make pop music, Dan." You know what I mean? My manager doesn't even tell me that. I, I do it because it's what I perceive to be enjoyable. I, I grew up listening to a ton of pop music and I ... Then I ended up being in what is, quote unquote, "a rock band," which I've never perceived it as that, but that's kinda what the world has, has called it and, and that's fine, but, um ...

Lex Fridman 6:56 So you're a prisoner of a prison that you yourself constructed. There you go.

Dan Reynolds 7:01 Well, I'm ha-

Lex Fridman 7:01 The confines are yours.

Dan Reynolds 7:02 I'm a happy ... I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm a happy prisoner of the prison that I have created for myself.

Lex Fridman 7:08 (laughs) That's good.

Dan Reynolds 7:08 And I made that prison thinking that it was a mansion.

Lex Fridman 7:11 So you worked with Rick Rubin. What does Rick think about your prison? (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 7:16 Rick, uh, (laughs) Rick was, Rick was ... You know, it was interesting to hear his outside opinion when we first met 'cause my biggest focus for so much of my life, my biggest fear was, and I ... This stems from, I think, middle school is when it started, but everyone being in on a joke except for yourself. I re- like, the thought of thinking you're good at something and really you're terrible at it and you're surrounded by people who are saying, "Yeah, you're good at it." And then by themselves they're like, "He's terrible at this." Just kind of ... And, and, and not just in regards to music or art, but anything in life. And I think maybe from having six older brothers, it stems from that too.

Lex Fridman 8:02 (laughs) Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 8:02 Like, always feeling inadequate and, like, the annoying younger brother.

Lex Fridman 8:07 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 8:07 You know? Um, but anyway, so Rick's ... And that's something I've learned to let go of as I've gotten older and, and, and had life experiences, but one of the things that Rick said really early on that has stuck with me was he said, "Yeah, you know ..." We were, we were Zooming the first time we met. He said, "I'd, I'd really like to work with you because I feel like you don't ... You're not confined to a sound. You've done a lot of different sounds and so it's exciting because I feel like your fans are forgiving more than other rock bands or bands." 'Cause most people when they hear, you know, I don't ... When they hear a band, it's like there's a very specific sound with it. It's like they do folk music. Oh, they do, like, California rock or they do surf or they do, you know. Like, there's ... And your fans kind of want that. Like, they want them to do that thing and then they don't do it. And sometimes that goes well, but a lotta times it doesn't. And people, you know, critics and everybody is like, "Go back to the thing that you did good and do that." Rick was, felt, whether he's, he was right or wrong, that we could, we could do ... We, we hopped genres so much. And that's been to our benefit and detriment, I think. Um-

Lex Fridman 9:27 Why detriment?

Dan Reynolds 9:29 Uh, because people want you to, to be something. It's more you can believe it more. I, you know, it's like a ...

Lex Fridman 9:38 It's more authentic if you, if you never change? (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 9:40 I, I guess. I don't know.

Lex Fridman 9:42 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 9:42 I mean, it's certainly it's not something I subscribe to because I create-

Lex Fridman 9:45 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 9:45 ... music that ... But, but I also grew up listening to a l- a lot of different genres, like Cat's ... I would listen to, like, Cat Stevens and the next song would be, like, Biggie and then the next song would be-

Lex Fridman 9:57 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 9:57 ... Nirvana. And it was like, I like a lot of it. Or, and then Billy Joel and then Enya. It was like, you know what I mean? I was a product, and I was a product of the '90s, which if you listen to '90s music it really was all ... A lot of reason that people say, "Well, '90s were terrible." (laughs) Like, a lot of people say that. I love the '90s. They were my favorite decade of music. Um, was there was a lot of genre hopping and, and, and, I don't know, I, I, I love that.

Lex Fridman 10:24 So you had the '90s, you had the boy bands-

Dan Reynolds 10:27 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:27 ... and it had Pearl Jam and Nirvana. (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 10:30 And it had a lot of ... Like, women of the '90s was pro- is probably my biggest influence on, like, kinda that, like, angry rock women of the '90s. Like, Alanis Morissette, Jagged Little Pill-

Lex Fridman 10:43 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 10:43 ... is one of my favorite records of all time. The, the lyrics were all so, uh, intimate and, um, I don't know if she was angry or not. Sorry if she wasn't. Um-

Lex Fridman 10:54 Yeah, but there was an anger to it.

Dan Reynolds 10:55 There was angst, yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:56 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 10:56 It was, like, angstiness. And that and hip hop of the '90s influences me and then my dad. So anything my dad listened to, which my dad didn't listen to any of that. My dad listened to, like, Harry Nelson, the Beatles, Cat Stevens, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Billy Joel. Um, it was very much like singer-songwriter.

Lex Fridman 11:15 Do you mind if we throw out this Listen to a Few Songs, 'cause you mentioned hearing this and I was actually, um, yesterday and the day before listening to a lot of his stuff and it's just like, "Damn, he's good." And not as known as he should be. Like, um, I was, I was getting a ... Do you mind if I play?

Dan Reynolds 11:35 No, please. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 11:37 I don't know not to, not to open this conversation with a love song.

Dan Reynolds 11:43 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 11:43 I would like that actually, Lex.

Dan Reynolds 11:45 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 11:46 Uh, But Without You is an incredible song.

Dan Reynolds 11:49 Oh, man. That's ... Yeah.

Lex Fridman 11:52 And the heartbreak and the, and the longing.

Dan Reynolds 11:58 No, I can't forget this evening.

Lex Fridman 12:00 What-

Dan Reynolds 12:02 He's the best to do it, in my opinion. In my opinion, he's the best to do it.

12:06 ... but I guess that's just-

Lex Fridman 12:07 The vocal range.

Dan Reynolds 12:09 ... the way the story goes.

12:10 And just the sadness of, like-

Lex Fridman 12:12 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 12:13 You always smile, but in your eyes, your sorrow shows.

12:17 There's something, uh, I- I don't even wanna talk over him because I lo- this is one of my favorite songs too, but I think people have a really good bullshit indicator.

12:28 No, I can't find tomorrow.

Lex Fridman 12:32 Band.

Dan Reynolds 12:32 And music, in my opinion, uh, whenever I meet a young artist and say, "Well, what's ... I'm trying to make a new band and I wanna do something like you. How to be successful?" I really think understanding that people have a really good bullshit indicator is the most important part of being an artist. And I'll, I'll explain what, what that means, at least to me. I think that in order to have success or- or be a leader or- or whether it's in art or anything, people need to believe that you believe what you're doing. Um, I think the best actors really when they're doing their thing, it's like they ... It's not acting. They're-

Lex Fridman 13:18 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 13:19 ... they're in it and it's how they feel and they're expressing that s- sorrow or joy or whatever it is. Harry for me, Harry Nilsson, he j- I just believe it. He could s- he sings that and I h- I feel it. W- And whether he's the greatest bullshitter of all time or it ... I don't think that's the case. I think he probably was singing that song and he, he just could transport himself to wherever he was. It's what makes a great live act. It's what makes a great song. And someone could be the best actor and sing that in the same timbre, same EQ, same compression, same everything, and there's some unknown there that I ... You know, I don't ... I- I think it ... Hopefully it will be known at some point and it's some scientific thing, but there's something there that ... The energy or something that people can perceive it and say, "True or false?" And if it resonates as true, it's so much more meaningful and it lives on. And if it doesn't ... That, for me, is what is good art or bad. Like, to- for people to dispute over, like, "Well, sonics should sound like that," that's silly to me. It's like, it's, uh, a song or- or- or even a painting, like, it's just the truthfulness of it.

Lex Fridman 14:37 Yeah. The- the truly great art goes ... Has to go to that place where you really are feeling it. Like, you f- forget that you're being recorded. You forget there's an audience. You really are feeling it. Yeah, which, um ... I totally agree with you. One of the things that I love about the internet is it's, uh, brought the bullshit detector of the masses, um, to power, which is beautiful, because then the masses uplift the really authentic.

Dan Reynolds 15:09 Right.

Lex Fridman 15:10 And y- even if he didn't write the song, I think it helps a lot probably if you wrote the song.

Dan Reynolds 15:15 For sure.

Lex Fridman 15:15 But, you know ... Yeah. I was, I was, I was a little bit, maybe a lot, since we're in Vegas, a little heartbroken that ... To find out that Elvis didn't write his songs. Uh, but ... (laughs) Uh, like, for example, Rocket Man with Elton John. El- ... Like, to- to find out that Elton John didn't really know where the words of Rocket Man came from, meaning, like, the depths of it, it's interesting. But nevertheless, he's super authentic because for Elton John and for Elvis, there's something in the, in the fun and the darkness and the entertainment of it. Like, he goes to some place in his mind that might not be deeply connected from where the lyrics came from, but-

Dan Reynolds 15:55 But he relates it.

Lex Fridman 15:56 He relates it to whatever is in his mind, uh, and- and goes to that place emotionally.

Dan Reynolds 16:01 Yeah, and- and that's what I think it is. And- and that's why an actor, like I said, can be completely honest to me. Maybe they didn't write the script, but I- I write a- like, I've always written all my own lyrics. It's a really personal thing to me. But I will say, I see people all the time who are performers, like Elton John, for instance, who didn't write the lyrics that I believe that they ... It means just as much to them as what I wrote, because they find the meaning in it for themself. At least the- the greats do. And I- I think, uh, that- that's the difference maker. Um, and I think you can perceive. And I'm sure you've seen art that doesn't move you. And maybe it moves someone else, but for you, for some reason, you perceive it to be uninteresting to you. And I feel like a lot of the time ... I'm not saying that it's ... Of course sonically maybe it's uninteresting to you, but I think the majority of the time for myself, I can find inspiration in any sonic value or painting as long as I see it and I feel truth from the person that created it.

Lex Fridman 17:07 Yeah. But ... And for me, the lyrics, maybe not the entirety of the lyrics, but a few words can- can- can do wonders to take you to a place.

Dan Reynolds 17:16 For sure.

Lex Fridman 17:16 And- and sometimes those words don't need to be connected with the other words. (laughs) That's the beauty of- of music. They're allowed to float in the space of mixed metaphors.

Dan Reynolds 17:25 Yes.

Lex Fridman 17:25 They're allowed to just jump around and somehow it paints a picture without actually ... Um, what is it? Uh, glycerine by Bush? (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 17:33 Right.

Lex Fridman 17:33 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 17:34 But it's also how the person says it, right?

Lex Fridman 17:35 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 17:35 It's like, it- it's the, it's the feeling of exactly ... And the same person could say that word 10 other ways and you don't care.

Lex Fridman 17:43 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 17:43 But if someone says glycerine or whatever it is and it's like, "Oh, you know what? That ... I feel that."

Lex Fridman 17:49 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 17:49 For some- like ... The way he said that, I- he meant it to me.

Lex Fridman 17:53 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 17:53 You know what I mean? And ... Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:55 Uh, "No, I can't forget this evening or your face as you were leaving. But I guess that's just the way the story goes.""You always smile, but in your eyes, your sorrow shows. Yes, it shows." Um, let me ask you to analyze this song. Do you, uh... So there's a, there's a lady, possibly, who's leaving him. Do you think he's leaving her or she's leaving him? If you want to...

Dan Reynolds 18:23 When I think of all my sorrow. Well, I had you there, but then I let you go. And now it's only fair that I should let you know what you should know.

Lex Fridman 18:43 And then, uh, the chorus is, "I can't live if living is without you."

Dan Reynolds 18:46 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:46 "Can't live, I can't give anymore."

Dan Reynolds 18:50 I can't live.

Lex Fridman 18:52 He's got a voice on him.

Dan Reynolds 18:53 Yeah, he does. And if you really... There's been some incredible documentation on his life and the end of his life, and so my answer to this is probably skewed based on what I've seen about his life too. But he, he was a real alcoholic at the end of his life, and it destroyed his voice and ended up killing him as well. Um, and so when I hear that, I perceive it as someone who is destructive and in a destructive place in life and can't love someone properly, and so they can't live with them but they can't live without them type thing. Which is really something that I really identify with and I think is, you know, one of the struggles of life is loving yourself enough, um, to forgiving yourself for, for things and, and letting yourself love someone else. And, uh, you know, at least when I listen to that I hear Harry being like, and maybe I'm wrong but this is how I perceive it at least, is not loving himself and feeling like he's deserving of this person. Like, "I have to let you go," I hear that, of course, and people are saying, "Oh, well, he's breaking up with her." But there's so much more complexity and nuance to, to relationships than that. And I, and I... For ins- My wife and I went through really difficult, um, separation, and that's, you know, a story for another day or, or different question or something. But the nuance of it makes me think of this when I hear this, which is, there's just more to, to being with someone or not being with someone than, "Hey, I think that person's really attractive," or, "Hey, that person makes me laugh or not," or, "I love them and now I don't love them." Love is such a complex, nuanced thing that it, a lot of times there's just more going on behind the scenes, I think.

Lex Fridman 20:49 Yeah,

Lex Fridman 20:50 um, on a small tangent on that, just, uh, as a, as a curious question. Have you paid any attention to the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trials?

Dan Reynolds 20:58 I have, uh, watched quite a bit of it, because my wife really loves it and she watches it in bed at night. Um...

Lex Fridman 21:04 (laughs) So it's raw, like, uh, to me it's real- 'Cause you, uh, you've mentioned how complicated love can be, and it's, I've never seen... I don't care about the celebrity nature of it. I don't care if it was... I don't care who it is.

Dan Reynolds 21:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:17 But it's just laid out s- in such raw form. The, uh-

Dan Reynolds 21:22 For the world to see it.

Lex Fridman 21:22 For the world to see the toxicity but also the passion and, and the clearly sort of, uh, the drugs and the drinking, but also, like, the longing and the dreams and, "I will always be with you, I will die for you."

Dan Reynolds 21:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:38 The, the, the places, the, the roller coaster of love and it's all there at the end, past the end. So it's like, um... I've also recently re-read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (laughs) about, uh, Hitler and Nazi Germany. It's the rise and the fall, and it's interesting to look at the entirety of that process after it's all over, many, many decades after it's all over. That book in particular, written by the person that was actually there. And so here we're seeing two people in the context of the courtroom, analyzing this rise and fall of a love affair. (laughs) It's fascinating.

Dan Reynolds 22:16 You know, the truth is, I was telling my wife this actually just the other day 'cause we- she was asking what I thought about it. It makes me really sad. It, it's, it's humorous, don't get me wrong. There's a lot of parts in it that are just really funny, like... But-

Lex Fridman 22:31 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 22:31 ... I look at it and I also see the internet, uh, uh, you know, someone's always the villain and someone's the hero. Which is such a funny thing, and we, we talked about, a little about this offline before we got on this, but I have a real firm belief in life that it's just more complex than you think. Always, always. And we, and, and Johnny for instance is very charismatic, and, and you, you love him and he's funny and his, the way he does things and he looks certain ways and he says things. He, he's just... You really love him, and I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but it looks like the internet has really been like, "Johnny is the winner. Amber is, is the villain." And, and I-

Lex Fridman 23:11 Amber is, yeah.

Dan Reynolds 23:11 ... kind of look at it... Yeah, and I kind of look at it and I feel like, were any of you in their bedroom?

Lex Fridman 23:16 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 23:16 Like, were any of you there for these things? And I'm not saying one way or the other. Like, the... All I see when I look at that is, uh, two people with a lot of deep seeded hurt, anger, and that anger is so poisonous to both of them, and they're g- and they're getting through it in the way that they only know how. And I'm, I'm not saying we should, you know, we shouldn't be able to look at parts of it and laugh about it and stuff, and, and, and be virtuous or something, but just that there's not a hero. I, I, I-

Lex Fridman 23:47 It's more complicated.

Dan Reynolds 23:47 Yeah. I think, uh, unless you're, you've been living with Amber and Johnny, you don't know. Just 'cause one seems more charismatic in the moment or funnier or more believable even, doesn't mean that their truth is the truth.

Lex Fridman 24:04 And I, I feel like there's still love there too, which makes the whole thing-

Dan Reynolds 24:07 Oh, that's the hardest part. He won't even look at her.

Lex Fridman 24:09 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 24:09 He looks down the whole time. And maybe people say, "Well, it's 'cause anger or, or hurt," or whatever. But I s- the way that she looks and stuff, it feels... It just feels like there's so much hurt there.... that it hurt, it hurts me to watch it. I just feel like, oh, my heart just, like, aches for them and, and for both of them. And I, I don't know either of them personally and, and, you know, I don't know. It just hurts.

Lex Fridman 24:34 But it's, I've never, I've never seen sort of love laid out in this raw kind of way. It makes me, uh, feel better about, like, it almost gives you... Seeing people who have gone through a struggle in this sort of mundane kind of way gives you room to struggle yourself about the messiness of love.

Dan Reynolds 24:55 So true.

Lex Fridman 24:56 Like, you're supposed to, like, relationship are supposed to be simple and whatever, but this, like, oh man, this-

Dan Reynolds 25:02 It's like art.

Lex Fridman 25:02 (laughs) Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 25:05 Uh, and, and for the record, like, I don't feel like it shouldn't be shown. Like, I think it's actually really beautiful art. And I agree there's gonna be a lot of people who walk away from it and are changed in certain ways or look at things different. I'm not saying it's changing the whole world, the Johnny Depp trial, but it's hard. It's just like you would look at a painting, it might affect you. Um, my only commentary is more that there's not, I think it's silly when people say who's right and who's wrong and who's the clear villain and who's the... Like, we love as human, we have to have an answer for every, we have to put everything in a box and it's like, well, we're looking at this and we're deciding you're right and you're wrong. And, and I just think that's, it's silly unless it's your life.

Lex Fridman 25:44 So speaking of heroes and villains and highs and lows, you grew up in Las Vegas, and you've said that Vegas is a performing town, a town of high stakes, drama, and eccentricity. It's a town of high highs and low lows. And I'll be damned if my therapist didn't point out that correlation out to me personally a long time ago. Uh, so to me, Vegas from the outside is romanticized by certain movies. The lows define the beauty of this town and, uh, certain movies. So to me, Casino, uh, with Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci and, and Sharon Stone, um, Leaving Las Vegas with Nicholas Cage, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas with, uh, uh, (laughs) with the Johnny Depp playing, uh, Hunter S. Thompson. First of all, what's your favorite representation of Vegas from a darker side? And do you draw any wisdom, insight from the, the, the darkness, the lows and the highs from, in, in those movies? Or is it over-romanticized?

Dan Reynolds 26:52 So I, I grew up in a really conservative Mormon family, and Vegas was established by the Mormons and the mob. Those were like the two very different worlds that created what Vegas is.

Lex Fridman 27:06 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 27:06 And if you live in Vegas, it really shows in a lot of ways because Vegas has the, you know, the strip and the parties and the craziness, but it also has very, like, neighborhoods and, and big families and conservative people and, and, and, and liberal people living together in a really interesting way. And for me, growing up here, for instance, was a lot of like driving on the freeway and my mom being like, "Children, close your eyes. There's a naked woman on that billboard." And every-

Lex Fridman 27:38 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 27:38 ... "Okay, mom," on our way to church. You know what I mean? It was like, but also being like, "Whoa, this is crazy. This is..."

Lex Fridman 27:44 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 27:44 You know what I mean? Like-

Lex Fridman 27:45 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 27:45 ... take, taking in whatever I could when I could.

Lex Fridman 27:47 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Reynolds 27:48 Um, so I saw... And I'm grateful for that. Like, I really love that I didn't grow up as a Mormon in, for instance, like Utah or some, like the typical place, uh, because I, I saw both sides and I appreciated something from both sides. And now as a person now who's not religious but just spiritually minded, you know, I, I, I'm grateful for that divergent character, that juxtaposition, dual-edged sword that Vegas is, and I try to apply that to everything in life, which is, it's like Johnny Depp and Amber. It's like there's two sides to every story. There's always two sides to every coin. There's always, and there's something to be said for both. Like, I try to see people and, and even if, you know, it- it's just, yeah, I try to apply that to life. As far as a movie that personifies Vegas or an- or something in, in that medium that personifies Vegas in, in a way that, that resonates with me-

Lex Fridman 28:46 Don't say Hangover.

Dan Reynolds 28:47 No, no, yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:49 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 28:49 I, I, I also, like, I wasn't even allowed to watch PG-13 movies growing up.

Lex Fridman 28:53 Oh.

Dan Reynolds 28:54 So I, a, a lot of the movies that you're saying, like I, I didn't, I either didn't see, I didn't have cable television, you know. I wasn't like a pilgrim, but I had a really, really conservative upbringing.

Lex Fridman 29:03 So it didn't define your-

Dan Reynolds 29:05 No, it's like-

Lex Fridman 29:05 ... intellectual, like, development?

Dan Reynolds 29:08 No, no, I just, uh, I can't think of any movie that comes to mind where I'm like, "That's my Vegas movie." You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure, I've seen some of the movies you've said now, but I don't, I can't think of one that I'm like, actually personifies Vegas in a way that feels honest to me. Like, or, or, or, like, wasn't there a Chevy Cha- was there a Chevy Chase?

Lex Fridman 29:29 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Reynolds 29:30 I think that's maybe the only one I thought of that came to mind where I was like, because I love Chevy Chase so much that-

Lex Fridman 29:34 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 29:35 ... maybe it's one of his, uh, Vegas, Vegas Vacation or something?

Lex Fridman 29:38 Yeah. So, but that's more, like, lighthearted-

Dan Reynolds 29:41 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:41 ... surge, that kind of stuff.

Dan Reynolds 29:42 Right, it's not like... I, I guess what I would say is there's no truth pers- that has been, that I've seen of Vegas because what I see of Vegas is, uh, there's obviously like the parties and stuff and the nightlife, which I'm not a big party person so it's, I haven't really experienced much of that. But I've als- there's also drugs and I've, I have a strange relationship with drugs because I've lost a few friends to drug overdoses and so I don't roma- that's not romantic to me. But there's also like, um... Yeah, I mean, you asked for a dark reflection of it. I can def- I guess I certainly see a dark (laughs) reflection to Vegas and I don't, I feel like Vegas is typically personified as like at the tables and everybody's this.

Lex Fridman 30:22 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Reynolds 30:22 But it's also like...I have, like, friends who've lost all their money to gambling addiction. And- and so it's, like, what... I guess, uh-

Lex Fridman 30:30 It's a dark underbelly to the whole thing.

Dan Reynolds 30:31 Yeah, somebody maybe needs to make... Maybe that's an open spot, and there needs to be a dark side to Vegas.

Lex Fridman 30:36 (laughs) Well, we-

Dan Reynolds 30:36 And it's about Mormons in Vegas-

Lex Fridman 30:38 That's- And the mob.

Dan Reynolds 30:39 ... dying from drug overdose, or getting shot by the mob.

Lex Fridman 30:42 Yeah, (laughs) . Uh,

Lex Fridman 30:45 so you mentioned your spirituality. You've, um, you said that having a crisis of faith, or just the- the philosophical question of asking, "Who is God? Does God exist?" Or, and thinking of the flip side of that, of mortality, "What happens when we die?" Those kinds of things were extremely difficult, uh, deep, um, things for you, uh, in- in terms of your development, the whole process of figuring that out. Um, why does it hurt so much to lose faith in God?

Dan Reynolds 31:20 Yeah, I would say that f- the seeking of God, let's say that, is an obsession for me, and has been since I was young. I- I really feel that I'm a deep, deep, deeply, like, committed to finding answers in life. And there's some answers that I don't think there's an answer to, and I'm also very OCD by nature, so I just don't give up to that. I'm like, "Well, there must be, somewhere in Tibet, there's some teacher..." Or there's- there's somebody out there that has the answer, or maybe it's yet to be found, I'm gonna find it. Um, I'm really... My life has com- been, to date, probably unhealthily committed to finding answers about God, or the lack thereof, and, um, mortality. It's all I sing about. It's all our records have been about.

Lex Fridman 32:13 Who do you think is God? Have you ever gotten a glimpse?

Dan Reynolds 32:17 You know, I will say the closest I feel like I have been to experiencing God is, uh... And this sounds so, um, maybe... I don't know. I don't know how it sounds, but is through ayahuasca for me. That's- that's my honest answer for you. I feel like I'd pretty much given up all hope of there being anything greater than, you know, us being... You know, evolving and being here and then dying, and you're gone, and that's it. And nothingness... And from nothingness we came, and nothingness we go, to where I am now, which is, there are answers to be found. I don't know them. Like, I don't know what God looks like, or if God is anything to do with the word "God" in the way that we say it, but I do believe, pretty fervently, that there is more to be, uh, found.

Lex Fridman 33:11 Is it motion sensor, or no?

Dan Reynolds 33:13 I don't know what that was. ... Looked like they've all died, actually. Do you know which one is it? Is it this one right here?

Lex Fridman 33:19 No. ... (crosstalk)

Dan Reynolds 33:19 Why not? It's that one. Yeah, yeah. Why not? It's that one. Yeah, yeah. Why not take it out? But then it's, like, too dark, and...

Lex Fridman 33:21 No, that's fine. I'll get it.

Dan Reynolds 33:24 I'll take it out. Do you wanna hold this chair? Let's see if I can get it like this. Yeah, it's definitely this one, because it's clinking. Almost there. I really don't know how I'm gonna catch this, though. (laughs) Ugh. There's gotta be, like, some saying about this. There we go. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:47 A Chinese proverb? (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 33:48 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:50 Uh, how many people does it take to... What is it? Unscrew a lightbulb?

Dan Reynolds 33:53 A lightbulb.

Lex Fridman 33:54 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 33:54 It was hot, too. It was like... I was doing, like, the two-finger, like, technique.

Lex Fridman 33:57 Yeah,

Lex Fridman 33:58 yeah. Well, I'm glad you survived that.

Dan Reynolds 34:00 Thanks. (exhales)

Lex Fridman 34:01 That'd be pretty ironic if we're talking about mortality, and then this would be it for you.

Dan Reynolds 34:05 (laughs) In that moment. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 34:07 Um, I've never done ayahuasca. So, it's a- it's a mixture of two plants, one of them is DMT, but a lot of people I really respect, very, very intelligent people, had profound experiences with i- with ayahuasca. What is that? What- what... Where do you go? Where does the mind go? What- what the heck is up with that? (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 34:26 I'll- I'll first say that I am... Like, I can't even smoke weed. I really do not enjoy it, uh, because I hate to let go of control. Uh, like, if I feel out of control in life, it's, like, one of my biggest weaknesses. It's, like, very scary for me. I don't... And- and some people, you know, really enjoy letting go in that way. (sniffs) I really don't. So, I was pretty terrified to make the jump then to ayahuasca. But my wife, who I deeply respect, um, (sighs) made a profound change, uh, through ayahuasca. And I saw it.

Lex Fridman 35:04 She led the way.

Dan Reynolds 35:05 Yeah. And it wasn't a strange... Like, I think most... We have a thing in America that's very... Like, a misconception, a stigma on psychedelics where, you know, it's like... It's a drug, and it makes some people crazy, and then you're gonna be on the street, and you're gonna be out of your mind, or you're gonna become, like, you know, a crazy person, basically. And I think I really bought into that notion because, again, I was raised... I wasn't even raised with cable TV, you know what I mean? (laughs) Like, ayahuasca is very... Like, (laughs) I didn't... You know. You can imagine what that was like for a Mormon kid. I didn't know anything about it and never touched drugs at all, and never even touched a cigarette, you know. Um, anyway, so I think we have this misconception about it, where Americans are quick to go to their doctor and take any medication or drug. Um, but, you know, whoa when it comes to, like, psychedelics. Uh, anyway, that being said, I... So I had that trepidation going into it, but I really love and respect my wife, and I saw it make a profound impact in her life, where she suddenly was able to (sighs) heal from a lot of trauma that she has. She had a really... She went through a lot in her life, and it- it really helped her heal. But it also set her on a new path, spiritually, that seemed really like a place that I wanted to be.So I did it, and I did it twice. The first time, it didn't really have an effect on me, which happens to a lot of people, I guess. Um, I drank, you know, this little thing, and there was, like, this shaman who came over from overseas that was really... Had been in, in the plant, you know, world for decades, and was a really incredible, um... I don't even know if he likes to be called Shaman, um, but...

Lex Fridman 36:57 So is it supposed to be, like, 30, 60 minutes to take effect and a few hours, uh, th- the, the journey lasts?

Dan Reynolds 37:05 About four, four hours.

Lex Fridman 37:06 Four hours.

Dan Reynolds 37:07 Yeah, so the second time I took it, I took, took it in, in, I would say, 20, 30 minutes in exactly. I started to, I started to feel like I was, like the dimension of what is reality, w- the curtain was pulled open, and there was a lot more to discover, and it really blew my mind in a way that I think it would probably blow anybody's mind if, for instance, God descended or-

Lex Fridman 37:36 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 37:36 ... some Christian God or whatever it is. We all think it'd be this beautiful thing, but in reality, it would probably make people super fearful and think that they've lost their mind. Um, like I've always... Yeah.

Lex Fridman 37:47 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 37:47 I've always, like, joked that if the Mormon God came down and told my mom, like, if God Himself came down and told my mom, "Mormonism is incorrect," she would say, "Satan."

Lex Fridman 37:57 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 37:57 You know? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 37:58 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Reynolds 37:58 It's like we're never... I think our minds are just not prepared for a lot of, of, uh, of anything that's really extreme, and it was very extreme. It was like the curtain of life was, was cut open, which scared me, but then I felt very much, and a lot of people that I've talked to have a similar thing, where I feel very much like I was either communicating with something that was perceived as God to me or highest sense of self or mind or Mother Earth or, you know, it's called so many different names. But it's really... It's very... Uh, a lot of people have a very spiritual similar experience with ayahuasca, uh, in, in, just in that it's like this kind of profoundness. It wasn't like, there was nothing, uh, at least for me, that was, um, that felt like just like my, like psychedelic funny cartoons or something. It was like, "I'm about to go on a journey, and it's, and I'm gonna communic- I'm communicating with something that feels incredibly wise." Showed me a lot of things in my life fr- kind of almost like from a bird's eye, almost like I was looking through a video camera at a younger me. There was a particular thing that it communicated to me. Um, I really have a hard time with, with s- accepting success and not feeling, um, like feeling undeserving or something, I can't quite put it into words, but of, of my position and what I've been given. I've been given s- so much, um, and it showed me this thing from when I was young and explained to me why I am where I am now, and, and I, I... To this day, like, it, it did not feel like myself telling myself that. That's the only way I can explain it, like... And there was a lot more that it showed me and, and that was incredibly healing for me, but just in... To be s- like, to put it into a short thing 'cause there's s- so much to this. It felt v-... I walked away feeling very convinced that there is more to be known for sure, and a lot of my deep, like, things that were traumatic for me didn't feel traumatic anymore, specifically crisis of faith. I was very angry at my parents and my community for raising me in what I perceived to be falsehoods. Um, and that, and, and that, uh, I felt like the bedrock of everything I believed was ripped out from me in my 20s, and then it was like, "Good luck in life." But really, my parents had given me everything that they could, and they believe that very much so still, but, uh, a naive young me was angry and felt like they had been duped, and thus I had been duped. But ayahuasca really showed me this roadmap of like, "This is truth, and you're concerning yourself about a grain of sand, which is Mormonism or whatever it is. And there may be some truths in that tiny grain of sand, and there may be falsities, but so is all these other grains of sand. Like, focus on the truth. Stop focusing on these little details that are meaningless, and forgive and let go of people believing in those things to begin with." I don't know if that makes sense, but that was like the core thing I was taught and to let go of control, stop needing to control everything.

Lex Fridman 41:24 And it felt like the wisdom was coming from elsewhere, like it's-

Dan Reynolds 41:26 It really... I do not believe... At least in my current self, I don't have that, th- the mindfulness that I believe that exists in me to, to reach a lot of the conclusions that I did, and there was a lot more to it that would be for, like, a late night conversation with you. But it's so hard to put it into... You feel like a crazy person. Any, at least a- anytime I talk about ayahuasca to someone who hasn't done it, um, like, I don't even know where to begin, like-

Lex Fridman 41:54 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 41:54 How do you explain to someone that you felt like that an, a multiple dimension type thing happened in a way that, like, putting it into words is... And none of it was words, by the way, that was communicated to me. It was like, you know how people talk about, um, telepathy, and if it, if it existed, it would be like, "I could communicate to you in such a deeper way. I'm so confined by me having to articulate these words and put them into a sentence to you, Lex, and then tell you, like, if only I could just be like..."

Lex Fridman 42:22 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 42:23 And, and emotions do that sometimes, right? You could see my emotions and be like, "Oh, that, that communicates a lot." So that's what it felt like to me with ayahuasca, is it felt like it was communicating to me very clear things, but it wasn't like, "Daniel, it's me, Mother Earth."

Lex Fridman 42:38 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dan Reynolds 42:38 "Let me sh- let me... Relax, sit back. Let me show you." But...But it very, it was very clear to me what was being said. And no, it did not feel like me. Uh, but maybe science and smarter people than me who have done it would say, "Well, it was you, blah, blah, blah." Like, I don't know, but-

Lex Fridman 42:52 Oh, yeah. There- there's-

Dan Reynolds 42:52 ... it was very convincing.

Lex Fridman 42:53 There's a lot of stuff in that subconscious that we haven't explored, like we haven't explored the depths of the ocean. We haven't really figured out what's that, uh, the Jungian shadow, what's going on underneath the surface of our conscious mind.

Dan Reynolds 43:08 Right.

Lex Fridman 43:08 And what is that connecting to? Is that, is that just inside our mind or is it some kinda, is there some kind of collective intelligence going on, where all humans are connected to one kind of, uh, greater organism? Like, what is consciousness? We, we, we have a lot of hubris in thinking we understand any of it, like how the mind works-

Dan Reynolds 43:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:28 ... at all. Like, what is it, uh, like, w- where, what is the origin of consciousness? What is the origin of intelligence? There's a lot of hubris about this. We, we, we give each other PhDs and Nobel Prizes and congratulate ourselves as if we figured it all out. Um, but humility is helpful here. Nevertheless, that is the question that humans have been asking for, um, ever since humans were humans, which is the question of mortality, the question of God. Um, uh, so whether it's Hamlet, "To be or not to be," I think that's the hardest and most important question. Um, Albert, uh, Camus asked, "Why live?" Um,

Lex Fridman 44:17 so in terms of crisis of faith, in terms of your search for truth, in terms of some of the dark places you've gone in your mind, uh, what's a good answer to this question? Uh, so f- for Camus with The Myth of Sisyphus, it was, uh, the question of suicide is, what's the purpose? Like, what's a good answer to why keep going? Especially when you're struggling, especially when you're not, um... when you're he- feeling hopeless, when you're feeling like a burden, in this search for truth where you feel like you're surrounded by lies, what's a good answer to why live?

Dan Reynolds 45:00 I think-

Lex Fridman 45:01 You ever find one?

Dan Reynolds 45:02 M- well, it's as if... The simple answer right now is to say for... It's very easy once you have kids to say the right answer is you just, of course, you brought these kids into the world, so you have a responsibility that I feel deeply as a father to them to always be there for as long as I humanly can, and to take care of them and protect them. It's the most innate sense in me, just, you know, it's d- it's wired in my animal, my animal existence. So if I take that away, right? Because that's kind of cheating.

Lex Fridman 45:35 Let's put that aside because it is cheating.

Dan Reynolds 45:37 It's cheating.

Lex Fridman 45:37 There's still, you're still, there's still some fundamental way in which you're alone.

Dan Reynolds 45:41 Yeah. And to that, um, that, that actually has been a real struggle for me for, for many years. I had a real turning point early in my career where we were flying somewhere overseas, and we're in a really small plane, and the lights went out and, like, all these red lights were flashing and the plane just started to dive. Completely, like, scariest plane experience I've ever been in. My manager was next to me, who's my brother. He was crying and texting his wife a goodbye. That's how, like, (laughs) crazy this moment was.

Lex Fridman 46:23 Was it real, like genuine that the plane-

Dan Reynolds 46:25 Genuine-

Lex Fridman 46:25 ... was real like this?

Dan Reynolds 46:26 Like, genuine engine went out, plane is going down, pilot's looking like crazy in the front, and it was a really tiny jet. And, m- and like I said, my brother next to me crying, typing a text to his wife. Really, really scary. And I felt nothing. I genuin- genuinely sat there and I was like, "This might actually be nice." Like, I, I really felt like this goes down and like, "Ah, man, life sucks and it's hard." And that sounds so ridiculous, I know, to say because I, again, I, like, I'm in a different place now and I see my life for what it is, but at that moment I did not.

Lex Fridman 47:09 So life was primarily defined by suffering, it was a burden?

Dan Reynolds 47:12 It wa- it was. I felt-

Lex Fridman 47:13 And this is a burden lifted.

Dan Reynolds 47:14 ... I was incredibly depressed. I had been all, trying different m- m- medications since I was young, and I just had not found anything that was working for me. And then I was in a faith crisis, lost all my faith, um, started a band that's t- just became... I wasn't ever thinking that this band... I was like, when you call your band Imagine Dragons you're not thinking, "That band's (laughs) gonna be big," okay?

Lex Fridman 47:38 Right.

Dan Reynolds 47:38 It was like... (laughs) I was like... This was like a side project that was fun for me. It was like art in college. I was at, in school and I was like, "Man, I hate this biology class. I'm gonna write down band names." Like, you know what I mean? Like, it was not, "Hey, put everything aside, this is my career. Let's go." Like, it just, it happened. And

Dan Reynolds 48:01 I'm an introvert by nature. It's, I'm really not an extroverted person who likes to go out and, like... I like to be at home with a couple friends and have a late-night conversation over good food. Like, that to me is a perfect night. Read a good book, listen to a podcast, go on a walk, um, you know, those are things that I really, really enjoy. And suddenly I'm in this life where I'm, like, supposed to be something that I really don't want to be. Except for on stage, which is a really fasten- like, strange thing to me, which is on stage I feel so free and exuberant and like an extrovert, and then I come off and I just feel, like, shrivel back into a shell. Like, it's a, it's... I, I, I... Music does that for me and performing on a stage does that for me.

Lex Fridman 48:43 Can we take a small tangent on that?

Dan Reynolds 48:44 Yeah, yeah, of course.

Lex Fridman 48:45 What's the high? Can we go through that, the introvert...... that wants to cuddle up and read a book. You're the front man of one of the, if not the biggest rock bands today, uh, playing in front of huge crowds. What's the high of that, and how can you land back on Earth?

Dan Reynolds 49:08 The high of it is it's incredibly beautiful to walk on a stage, sing these songs that you wrote, and see it resonate with people around you and sing with them, different cultures, different places, celebrate life. It suddenly the world seems like a fantastic place. It feels like we're all on the same team.

Lex Fridman 49:36 (laughs) Well, it's like one big hug.

Dan Reynolds 49:38 Right? 'Cause... Yeah, it's like everybody in that room gets it. And they all, like it, it, it just... It f- it feels like what you want the world to be, which is just, like, this coexisting unit of people, and it's not even about, like, m- you know, I g- I just... It's incredible. It's in- for sure, it's incredible, and I love it, and I wouldn't do it unless I loved it. And then you walk offstage, and you turn on the news, and it's like you see, you know, we're all against each other. Everybody hates each other, and it f- it feels that way in the world. So music really... That's why live music is so important to people. That's why music is so important to people, 'cause even if it's just you and that person that wrote the song, you're listening to it, and the two of you feel connected, you know? It's like you're hearing Tracy Chapman sing, like, Fast Car or something. You're just like, "Oh my gosh," like, "Yes, I get it." And you feel connected to that person. You don't feel alone, like... So that's the high of it, for sure. And then you get offstage, and then, (sighs) you know? As my, like, my uncle's a heart surgeon, incredible heart surgeon, who, like, writes the book. Like, he's like the guy that the heart surgeons talk to. He's out of Nashville, Tennessee. He's just an incredible, genius man. He, um, always worries and always reached out to me. He's like, "Musicians die all the time, and the reason they die, you know, is because you're getting on stage, and your heart's doing this, and your cortisone levels are doing this. You're getting offstage, and then you're just doing this." And it's a really real thing. Like, yeah, you get offstage, and you feel like you need drugs, 'cause you're like, "I..."

Lex Fridman 51:09 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 51:09 "The world feels like, oh, incredibly daunting." And it's also, I'm sure, has to do with, like, some s- some, like, health things in your heart and the cortisone levels that are so crazy, and then you come off. And it's like... I know people are like, "Well, then nothing's enough except meth." You know (laughs) what I mean? Like...

Lex Fridman 51:26 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 51:26 ... nothing's enough except heroin.

Lex Fridman 51:28 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 51:29 And that's why a lot of artists turn to that stuff, and, and I don't say it in a, a preach- I don't say it in a preachy way. Like, I've struggled with drug abuse in my life, and I really... I, I understand why artists turn to it. Um...

Lex Fridman 51:43 But also the fact that you're an introvert. So the other side of it, the fame. That's something that you also said is a double-edged sword for you. The interesting thing about fame is that, you also mentioned, is it's something you can't take back.

Dan Reynolds 51:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:00 So it's a thing. (laughs) You can't just, like, go on vacation to Hawaii, and it's like, consider do I like it or not? No, you're staying in Hawaii for the rest of your life.

Dan Reynolds 52:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:08 And you've never been (laughs) there before, whether you like it or not.

Dan Reynolds 52:12 Right.

Lex Fridman 52:12 So, um, what's that like being, you know, loved by millions and millions and millions of people, which is, uh, perhaps the best kind of fame, in terms of if you had to choose the kinds of fames there are-

Dan Reynolds 52:29 Right.

Lex Fridman 52:29 ... and still being an introvert and all that kinda stuff. So what, um... Do you feel... Do you feel alone, more alone being famous? (laughs) Is there a loneliness to it?

Dan Reynolds 52:41 There's... Yeah, I mean, it's so- it's such a funny thing 'cause for... Okay, if you had asked... If we were having this conversation a couple years ago, I'd be incredibly guarded about this, because y- the last thing I want to ever do is sound ungrateful-

Lex Fridman 52:56 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 52:56 ... or unaware of how much I have, and woe is the famous celebrity with money.

Lex Fridman 53:02 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 53:02 "Oh, is your life hard? Is it really... Tell me about how hard it is." But I'm also at a place in life now where I just M- like, I'm gonna always just speak my truth, because that's the only reason I'm here is I'm here to speak my truth to you, so I'm gonna tell you my truth, whether it's whatever it is.

Lex Fridman 53:14 Well, you're human, and feelings are real, and so... And you-

Dan Reynolds 53:18 Right.

Lex Fridman 53:18 And that's the interesting thing. You win the lottery, what's that gonna feel like? It's not about complaining, "Oh, it's so hard to win the lottery 'cause you get a lotta money." No, it's still... You're human, and you get to experience these feelings, and it's fascinating. You put humans in different situations-

Dan Reynolds 53:32 Right.

Lex Fridman 53:33 ... and, and it's also fascinating because a lot of people think, "Well, I would like to be famous." That's a big thing now on social media, on Instagram and so on.

Dan Reynolds 53:40 The whole world wants to be famous, yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:42 Or rich or famous, and then it's very interesting to think, all right, well, once you arrive, are all the problems solved? (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 53:49 No, yeah, so I, so I will tell you, according to me, what the pitfalls are, whether it's true or not, and there are certainly some pitfalls. One, y- it's once you're there, you can't go back. Whatever, maybe that's fine 'cause maybe you love it.

Lex Fridman 54:02 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 54:03 But the real pitfall for me is that you're now... You're Lex, and you're what everybody's perception is that Lex is, and that's what you are. Now, Lex is probably a lot more complex and complicated and has a lot more to Lex than the Lex that is the celebrity.

Lex Fridman 54:24 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 54:25 So, but anybody who meets you, that's who you are to them, and you may, you may not feel this way, but you may feel confined to actually have to be that person to that p- person. Like, I've, early in my career, for a long time, anytime I met someone, I suddenly felt like I had to be Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons, any time I met someone, including my family now, who are also like-

Lex Fridman 54:49 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 54:49 ... "Whoa, this is crazy. You're like Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons."

Lex Fridman 54:52 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 54:52 And I wanted to just be the goofball that I have been my whole life.... with my brothers and family. But suddenly, I found myself feeling like, I, no, I have to be this, like, 'cause that's who, that's who this is. So you're almost like playing a role. And it's like, I've heard a lot of actors talk about this, where they take on a role and then it's like they feel like they have to, they like become that, and it's a really scary thing. Like, you ch- you alter who you are almost to fit the notion of other people, 'cause especially if... A lot of artists are empaths. It, you know, a lot of people who get into art in a deep way are empaths, and so you feel a lot of what people are feeling and you're never wanting to burden people and you're always wanting to deliver to that person, you know, what they want. It's like people-pleasing, is, is very, goes hand-in-hand with a lot of, like, these famous people, and they get to where they were because they know how to do that. They know how to be in a room with someone and look them in the eye and make them feel like they're the only person in the room. And then now they got that role in that movie because they sat with the casting director and they were like, (laughs) "Oh, you're so funny. Oh, has anybody told..." Like, put on the charisma. Do it all and it's like... Anyway, I'm like, I'm going on a different tangent here. But long story short, there's a lot of things that are really unhealthy about it, and then a- a lot of people who want the fame, then the second it starts to go away, then they're like, "Who am I anymore?" Like, "Uh, that was everything and now I'm like on the down. Now I'm not a f- famous person anymore and now I hate myself. Now I'm going to do drugs." And it's like, it's like this vicious cycle, like you can never be famous enough. You're always gonna get s- like there's just so much to it that I've just... And I, and, and again, like I've, I've lost friends in this career to, to that, for sure, um.

Lex Fridman 56:37 And there's a certain element to sort of just on the, the losing fame. I've interacted with a lot of folks, um, especially young folks, like on YouTube. So fame is a thing that has levels. You're always trying to be a little more famous.

Dan Reynolds 56:52 Right.

Lex Fridman 56:52 A lot of folks who are chasing fame, it doesn't matter how famous you are, you're always trying to chase more, and when you start to lose it, interesting things can happen if you're not self-aware, which is like, like you mentioned, you might be trying to grasp back at where you were by leaning into the formula that got you there. And so the, the, the constraints of the image that you mentioned becomes the thing that you're now trying to lean into, like, and that, that's actually walking away from who you really are. Like you lean further into being that person. That's true for acting, that's true for, um, even on like YouTube, which is people acting, they have a role, they got them to the table somehow. Yeah, it's, um, it's dark, but I, I think those are... That's just put for everybody to see, uh, but that's a very human struggle, even when you're not famous, is, of finding yourself, of being yourself, of, uh, not letting, not doing the people-pleasing at any scale.

Dan Reynolds 57:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:55 And being trapped by that.

Dan Reynolds 57:56 Yeah, and, and also feeling like it's never enough. I think that's something all he, like it, it, very, not, it's not just a famous thing, but it's like in the whole, like everybody deals with feeling like, "When I'm here, I'll be happy."

Lex Fridman 58:08 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 58:08 "When I get that job, I'll be happy. When I have that money, then I'll be happy. When my, when I get that surgery and my nose looks like this, I will be happy then." It's like an, a constant chase of happiness instead of happiness. Like, it's like the opposite, it, it's opposite of self-love, it's the opposite of, of happiness. Uh, it's n- there's no presence to it. You're constant- you're never going to find it. You're never gonna arrive and you're just gonna live your life and then you're gonna be on your deathbed and be like, "I was chasing the wrong thing the, my whole life." You know?

Lex Fridman 58:43 I should say that podcasts are interesting in that way. So for me personally, because you just talk a lot, uh, you can't... People that meet you, they know you, and they know the evolution of you. And that's the same thing for, like you right now, uh, Dan of Imagine Dragons, just being on a podcast, like long form, reveals a side that liberates you more, to be yourself, to, to, like people see, "Oh, there's a human." They, 'cause they, you know, music, they have a con- deep connection with you, they have experiences with you the way they experienced it, and that's who you are with them through the songs. But now you get to see, "Oh, that's a, that's a, that's a human being. He probably gets angry, he gets sad, he's excited, he's hopeful." You know, and there, there's a core that's a good human being, but oh, the whole rollercoaster of emotions are there, it's a giant beautiful mess. And podcasts reveal that, that's why I love podcasts, like long form.

Dan Reynolds 59:41 Right.

Lex Fridman 59:41 You get to s- you get to hear some artists and actors and so on, and some of them you get to see, oh, you've lost yourself in the, um, in the surface. That's a tragedy with some actors, some great actors. They've, they've, they've left so much of themselves in the roles they've played that they can no longer be the thing they were before those great roles. That's for-

Dan Reynolds 1:00:08 Sure.

Lex Fridman 1:00:09 It's, it's hard, it's hard to see. See, you get to see that with Johnny Depp with, I don't know, Pirates. He was talking about that with Pirates of the Caribbean. That was a shift.

Dan Reynolds 1:00:18 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:00:18 Like he's not that guy.

Dan Reynolds 1:00:20 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:00:20 He's (laughs) he's forever...

Dan Reynolds 1:00:22 Forever.

Lex Fridman 1:00:22 (laughs) Forever that guy. But the point is to remember that you're not, and to your family... Which is interesting you said with your family. Um, when I see people close to me, they also... There is an element like that, while you're that... They start treating you like the famous person.

Dan Reynolds 1:00:38 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:00:39 Uh, you know, I, I'm fortunate to have my manager, who's my brother, my older brother, and my lawyer is my other older brother. And that's been helpful because no ma-, like, it's weird. It gets weird with everyone, no matter what. One of the best advice (laughs) I was given was by, uh...Charlie Sheen.

Lex Fridman 1:00:59 You got advice from Charlie Sheen?

Dan Reynolds 1:01:00 Yeah, we were playing, uh, late night television-

Lex Fridman 1:01:02 The wise sage of our generation.

Dan Reynolds 1:01:03 (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:01:04 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:01:04 Wise sage, sage Charlie Sheen. But he- it was, it was really wise. I s- I was sitting next to him, and we were, we were, um, playing some late night television, and he said... This was right at the beginning. And he just said, "Boys, just mark my words, your life is about to get really weird." That's all he said. But it stuck with me forever. And it's Charlie Sheen, so of course it sticks with you. And I remember being like, "Right, right. Okay, Charlie Sheen."

Lex Fridman 1:01:27 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:01:27 I'm not Charlie Sheen. It's not gonna get weird. Like, you know. Um, but it got really, really weird, really quick. Because suddenly, you've existed your whole life in this way where everybody just... Everything you get, you achieved, it was because you got it. And, and, and every conversation you had, like, if someone liked you at the end of that conversation, well, it's 'cause they liked you.

Lex Fridman 1:01:50 Mm-hmm.

Dan Reynolds 1:01:51 If they didn't like you, it's 'cause they didn't like you. And you can make complete peace with that. At least I could my whole life. I was like, "Life is a challenge." And be myself, and I'm gonna go through it, and find some people along the way that I connect with, and others know, and... That social integrity is so (laughs) important to us. And we think it would be nice to have this ... And it, this is going back to the, the pitfalls of fame. We think it would be nice to walk into a room and have everyone be like ... (clapping)

Lex Fridman 1:02:21 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:02:22 And you could be like, "Dumpster fire." And everybody's like, "Oh my gosh, dumpster fire-

Lex Fridman 1:02:26 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:02:26 ... was amazing."

Lex Fridman 1:02:27 (laughs) Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:02:28 "Oh, how you said dumpster fire was amazing."

Lex Fridman 1:02:30 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:02:30 It's like, it's incredibly, incredibly lonely.

Lex Fridman 1:02:34 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:02:35 And it just breaks everything that you knew about humanness.

Lex Fridman 1:02:38 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:02:39 And it sucks. So then you're seeking out people who that it doesn't exist with. And, and family is the closest you can get to that, for sure. But even your family is ... It's gonna take a little bit where they're like, "Oh, this is a little weird. Like, all my friends at work are now asking about you. And you're my young, stupid brother, but now you're suddenly, like, the young, stupid brother that they want an autograph from and stuff." And it's a- and it still makes ... Like, they have to get over that and figure that out. And, and, um ...

Lex Fridman 1:03:02 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:03:03 And then you meet people too who know about this whole concept, and they're like, "Well, I'm gonna be an asshole to him to show him that I don't subscribe." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:03:10 Yes. Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:03:11 So then you're dealing with, like, people who are like, "Dumpster fire," and the person who's like ... You know. You could say something actually profound and nice, and they'd be like, "That's stupid, and you're an idiot."

Lex Fridman 1:03:21 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:03:22 It- it- because it's like an actual attempt to, like, show you how much they don't care. So you live in this very, like (laughs) this-

Lex Fridman 1:03:29 And still, nevertheless, even when nobody knew you, you were seeking for deep human connection with a small number of people. And now when a lot of people know you, you're still looking for deep connection with a small number of people. (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:03:43 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:03:43 The struggle is the same.

Dan Reynolds 1:03:44 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:03:45 Uh, can you, can you speak to, 'cause you mentioned some of the dark moments. Uh, what advice would you give to people who are struggling with depression? And maybe for the people who love the people who are struggling with depression.

Dan Reynolds 1:04:00 So what I have found to be most successful for me, um, it's, it's back to the basics of everything that the f- the, uh, therapist or psychologist will tell you, psychiatrist will tell you right when you meet them, which is exercise every day, eat healthy, for sure, find time, make time every day to do something that you love, whatever that may be, whatever brings you joy. And y- and you might f- and, and when you're really depressed, that actually feels like nothing, 'cause the things that brought you joy don't bring you joy anymore, when I'm really in the thick of it. But, um, for me, I'll ... Like, this is the cycle that I- I'll go through is I'll, I'll look at my life, and I'll say, "Okay, what a- what, what can I clean up?" All right. Well, for me, it was cutting out alcohol actually helped me a lot. Um, I know that sounds like a big ... I'm not, like ... I'm not judging anybody for that, and I still, you know, drink on occasion, but I have felt like alcohol has been very unhelpful to my mental state. Um, I feel less drive and less happiness the next day for things that I wanna do. I feel like it plays a lot with your serotonin.

Lex Fridman 1:05:12 So look for stuff to change?

Dan Reynolds 1:05:14 Clean living. Yeah, clean living, but also understanding that m- that sometimes it's just, it just is. And you just keep breathing. And, and it will get better with time.

Lex Fridman 1:05:26 This too shall pass kind of idea?

Dan Reynolds 1:05:27 This too shall pass. Like, I, I, I really think that, uh, in the winter, you know, I ha- I- I'm pretty sure ... I mean, I've had a lot of ... I've seen a lot of therapists, and all of them say the same thing, which is like, "You have major depressive disorder, and this is what it is." But it's certainly worse for me in the winter months. So I know there's like, um ... I can't think of the term for it, but there's a term for, like, seasonal depression. There it is. Um, so I'll get to the winter, and suddenly I'm like, "Geez, everything really sucks on a deeper level." (laughs) And then, you know. So it's like this too shall pass is another thing. It's like just practice those things. Absolutely see a therapist. That's my big- Like, my biggest emphasis of life is to, like ... On stage, like, my goal ... Like, I have a few things that I really, really care about. One is, is, is mental health- health and de-stigmatizing therapy 'cause for me, I didn't go to therapy for a long time because I felt that it m- would be admitting that I was broken. It'd be admitting that I was weaker than Lex, who doesn't have to go to a therapist because Lex is stronger, so be strong like Lex. You know, I would, like, look at all my older brothers, and I looked up to them so much, and they were all these incredibly successful people. Plastic surgeon, an anesthesiologist, a dentist, two attorneys, Stanford, NYU. Like, just, like, incredible high standards. Eagle Scouts, you know? Like, they ... Valedictorians. Like, they just did it all. So for me, I was very ... Really did not want to admi- And none of them went to therapy. So it was like, "What are you gonna be? Are you ... Oh, you're broken? Are you, like, the weak one who can't hack life?"And I think that's incredibly dangerous. Um, and I feel like it almost cost me my life because I took so long to finally go to therapy. So, I really want kids to know, hey, like, the great people that achieve great things, that are doing amazing things, they probably have help, almost all of them.

Lex Fridman 1:07:18 It's like going to the gym, but it's a mental gym. What, um... so, I unfortunate- I wanted to be a psychiatrist when I was growing up. Uh, maybe, maybe that's why I like podcasts. Maybe that's-

Dan Reynolds 1:07:29 I think you'd be a good one.

Lex Fridman 1:07:30 Maybe. (laughs) I would, I would-

Dan Reynolds 1:07:32 I think you are a psychiatrist pretty much, right?

Lex Fridman 1:07:34 (laughs) Yes.

Dan Reynolds 1:07:35 Sounds like you're a psychiatrist.

Lex Fridman 1:07:36 I think I need more... I think... I think actually to be as good psychiatrist, you also need to be seeking therapy from the... Like, you also need to be... Have some stuff to work through in your mind.

Dan Reynolds 1:07:49 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:07:50 I think, uh, yeah, you have to have gone through some dark places. Um, what-

Dan Reynolds 1:07:55 Empathize.

Lex Fridman 1:07:56 The empathy. It's this ability to empathize and especially if you've directly r- experienced it, you can, you can go to those places in your mind. Like, like you said, it's with the music. To, to be authentic, you have to really go there. What, um... Why did therapy help so much? What is the process of therapy if you can just educate a little more? Is it... Are you basically bringing to the surface and talking through things that you... Because of the, the momentum of life, you just never allow yourself to speak through, to think through? Is that what therapy is? Or is this a more systematic thing?

Dan Reynolds 1:08:36 So, I've been to a lot of strange different kinds of therapy. So, I'll tell you my first therapist.

Lex Fridman 1:08:41 Well, h- if I could sort of interrupt.

Dan Reynolds 1:08:43 Yeah, go ahead.

Lex Fridman 1:08:43 How hard is it to find a therapist that connected with you?

Dan Reynolds 1:08:47 It, it is... It's actually pretty hard, I think. I think, I think, uh, it for... Well, actually, I have a skewed view of that because my... Going back to, to, to the beginning of my therapy was with a Mormon therapist, so it was very much like, "Well, are you reading your Book of Mormon? And are you praying at night?" You know what I mean? Like, that was a big focus of my therapy to begin with.

Lex Fridman 1:09:10 A- and you're having-

Dan Reynolds 1:09:11 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:12 ... a, a faith crisis in the distance somewhere. (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:09:14 Yes. I was like, "Well..." And then-

Lex Fridman 1:09:17 You're making it worse. (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:09:18 ... the next... Yes. The next therapist I went to was, uh, a, a Scientology therapist. I met my wife and she was Scientologist at the time, and she's not anymore, but she's like... (laughs) It's such a funny thing, like, to look back on because we met, and I was like this Mormon missionary who had just got home from his mission, and I met her, and I was... She's a Scientologist. I was like, "Wow, that's batshit crazy." Like... And like, "That stuff's crazy." And she's like, "What are you talking about? That's... You're crazy." (laughs) "You're Mormon."

Lex Fridman 1:09:47 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:09:47 "That's batshit crazy." And the two of us were like, "Huh, maybe there's something to this to both of us here." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:09:54 Yeah, the tension actually forces you to think through-

Dan Reynolds 1:09:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:56 ... like, "Oh, well, what is true? What is-"

Dan Reynolds 1:09:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:58 "... what is true here?"

Dan Reynolds 1:09:59 And we really fell in love through that, which was like, "Maybe the... We're both on the wrong track." (laughs) "Let's figure this out." But before that happened, we went to a, a, a Scientologist therapist, who that therapy consisted of, "What have you done wrong to Asia?" And they asked... They would ask me that question over and over and over and over until I'm, like, thinking of the deepest, darkest things that were in the recesses of my mind. This was a therap- this was marriage therapy.

Lex Fridman 1:10:27 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:10:28 Anyway, I'm not gonna get into that. (laughs) But it was, it was Scientology therapy, so that was a different thing. And then I went to, to therapy therapy. Like, no, not attached to any religion. (laughs) And that was a really great experience for me. And, and since then I've been through a couple different therapists, but that was more because where I was, and moving, and things like that. So, is it that hard to find a great therapist? Probably not. But maybe don't go to your Mormon therapist first, then (laughs) a Scientologist therapist.

Lex Fridman 1:10:54 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:10:55 Or maybe that's, maybe that's the route for you. Maybe it's the route for you. I don't know.

Lex Fridman 1:10:59 Yeah. But what is... So, is it bringing stuff to the surface basically? What's... Why is it so-

Dan Reynolds 1:11:02 Oh, yeah, sorry, I didn't even answer your question.

Lex Fridman 1:11:04 What, what's the effe- why is it so effective? Just, um... I... Is there something you could put words to?

Dan Reynolds 1:11:10 Yeah, I mean, I think it's... Obviously, there's the common things you would think of, which is like, "Oh, I've been holding these things in that I don't want to tell anybody, and then I tell this person. And, oh, there's relief in that." But that's really not where the real work comes from. I think the real work is meeting with someone who is well-versed and educated and understands... It's like, it's like coding. It really is. It's like someone who, like, they listen to you, and they're like, "Well, that was a trigger, and then this became this trigger, and you're probably, every time you're hearing that, thinking of this thing that happened earlier in your life." And, and they just will walk you through scenarios, and maybe some of them aren't right, but some of them you'll be like... it'll resonate sometimes. You're like, "Wow, I am feeling that because of that, and that did happen, and maybe if I tell... call my mom and say this to her, it will make me feel ............................ Hey, Mom, this happened..." It's like work. You, you, you, you put in work, and you have hard conversations and do difficult things, and if, if... So, if your therapy is not difficult, I actually think that's, that's not good therapy. Good therapy is it's gonna be a little difficult. It's work. Like, um-

Lex Fridman 1:12:10 During and after.

Dan Reynolds 1:12:11 Yes. Like, I had this incredible therapist who was... who had... I told him when I was gonna do ayahuasca. He was like, "Geez," you know. He, he, he had actually was a doctor before and a really well-educated, studied person who had, uh, walked away from, um, brain doctor... What's the word for that? Brain doctor?

Lex Fridman 1:12:28 A brain surgeon?

Dan Reynolds 1:12:28 Neurologist?

Lex Fridman 1:12:29 Oh, yeah, neurologist.

Dan Reynolds 1:12:30 And he, uh, and he's... and he said... Well, basically his belief was that ther- uh, ayahuasca was like basically doing therapy, like, 50 sessions.

Lex Fridman 1:12:39 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:12:39 He was like it's, it's, it's, like, really intensive. He's like, "You... I don't know if you want to do that. If you do, you can... you can make s- you know, some big steps forward, but I prefer just to do one, once-"

Lex Fridman 1:12:49 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:12:49 "... one session at a time."

Lex Fridman 1:12:51 (laughs)

Dan Reynolds 1:12:51 And, um, so, yeah, it's, it's hard work.

Lex Fridman 1:12:53 Yeah.

Dan Reynolds 1:12:54 And, and, um, that... I typically... Like, it's really hard for me to even talk about ayahuasca, by the way, going back to that, because I'm not looking to tell everybody to go do ayahuasca. It's incredibly hard. It was the scariest experience of my entire life. It felt like I went to heaven, but it also felt like I went to the darkest, deepest hell that was incredibly scary, um-... incredibly scary. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:18 So, you told the story of, uh, how you wrote the, the song Believer, or, like, um, your, your, your ch- childhood friend, I guess, uh, Donald, like, like, bullying and that kind of stuff. Th- this song, you know, a lot of your songs are super interesting, uh, sort of, uh, in terms of percussion, super interesting, super interesting lyrically, just how it flows, and also pain is at the center of it. I mean, a lot of, like, like you said, the crisis of faith (laughs) . Some of these existential questions are basically behind a lot of your songs, funny enough. Um, maybe they're covered in metaphor, so it's hard to see, uh, but it's there. And this song is really, is really interesting in that way that it puts, uh, you know, pain, "You made me a believer. You break me down, you build me up, believer." That's so interesting. Um, maybe can you tell the s- the story of how this song came to be? I'd love to listen to it too. I, I have some questions musically about it too.

Dan Reynolds 1:14:25 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, um, it's exactly what we're talking about with therapy. I just feel like the greatest things in my life have come from the deepest hurt. Like, losing someone, you know, that you love is maybe the hardest part of the human path for me, at, at least thus far. Like, I, I, when I think of, "Okay, what was the hardest thing?" There's like, okay, that, you know, there's, like, you think of physical pain, or, or maybe, like, going through financial pain or whatever. I think losing someone that you really love to death is on- is one of the hardest. It, uh, for me, I would say it was the hardest. And, um, but it also makes you look at your life completely differently, and alter your life, at least for me, in ways that were really healthy. Um, being more present, uh, letting go of things that were meaningless, t- trying to control what other people think about you, like, wasting your time on things like that. And you suddenly see, like, wow, like, time (exhales) I got small amount of time. Like, how do I wanna spend it? I'm gonna spend it in the best way I know how and that's it. So, yeah, I mean, that's, it's a, it's a basic comment, co- concept that's been said a million times over in a million different ways. But that's pretty much what I was trying to say with Believer, which is like, I'd lost faith in, faith in everything, uh, at that time period. And, you know, or previous to that time period, and then I was rebuilding my faith, or my, my spiritual thought process. And it was after ayahuasca and it was like, you know, finding, being a believer and, and that's, and, and that's not necessarily like a believer in God or a believer in heaven and hell or anything like that, but a believer in more. Believing in, in, in goodness, believing in that there is some light. Like, and, and again, those words, like, they're just words, and I wish there were better words to formulate the thought that I'm trying to express. But just more, uh, like the thought of me dying, for me, I don't fear it. I don't fear it. But actually I, I really fear not seeing my kids again. I'll say that. That is fearful f- for me. I feel like I love so deeply these children that the thought of, like, leaving them for me is a s- is a, a scary thought or some- something like that.

Lex Fridman 1:16:54 They're, they're kind of good reminder how much you love life actually.

Dan Reynolds 1:17:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:17:00 And you don't always remember that.

Dan Reynolds 1:17:04 Yeah. And, uh, I think having kids is not for everyone, for absolutely for sure. But for me, and especially you shouldn't be having kids to give yourself a reason to live (laughs) . You know what I mean? Like, "I feel like dying, I'm gonna have a kid." (laughs) . Like, you might feel more like dying after having a kid actually (laughs) , you know?

Lex Fridman 1:17:20 (laughs) It's pretty stressful. Uh, but it is a place to, like, I've changed a lot of people that I've known, that it gave them a new intensity of gratitude for life, for sure. Uh, do you mind if we, I'll return to the, the, the pain and the believer. Do you mind if we listen to a little bit of the song?

Dan Reynolds 1:17:44 No.

Lex Fridman 1:17:44 Did you write the music first or the words first? Did it come together?

Dan Reynolds 1:17:48 Uh, the same time, which is very typical for me. But, uh-

Lex Fridman 1:17:52 Like, just the way it opens, like, how... You know, intensity of openings. Do you ever think about, like, what the first few seconds sound like? Is that something that-

Dan Reynolds 1:18:01 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:18:01 Like, when you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine?

Dan Reynolds 1:18:06 No, it's, it's kind of a, a, just a s- a... I never think opening, I never think final. I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now. So, it could be the middle of the song for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm, when I'm doing that. But my process for me is very much lyrics and melody and music really come at the same time. Like, I f- by same time, I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, a- as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I'm feeling like (beatboxes) . Like, it's not that simple, but it's like I'll, I'll hear it, like, it's like here's all the orchestra and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once. And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments. You know what I mean? It's just utilizing one instrument.

Lex Fridman 1:18:56 So, you're seeing the landscape, and that landscape includes melody, includes percussion, lyrics-

Dan Reynolds 1:19:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:19:00 ... a little bit? Or lyrics?

Dan Reynolds 1:19:01 Lyrics were, will be words to begin with, like, a word here and there.

Lex Fridman 1:19:05 And that's-

Dan Reynolds 1:19:05 Like, I'll be like (beatboxes) . You know, and I'm like, "What's a word that I'm thinking of when I'm feeling this soundscape?" And, uh, I always create with no theme in mind. I'm never...For- for better or for worse, just my process is, I'm sitting down, and I'm writing a journal entry. Simple as that. It's like, when you sit down to write a journal entry, are you sitting down and you're like, "Okay, I have all these words here that I'm gonna put on the page, and I'm gonna order it in this way, and my theme of, for my journal entry today is going to be this"? Maybe some people do, but I don't. My journal entry is, "I don't know what I'm gonna say. Oh, how was today? Well, man, today was this, and feeling this, and now that I think about that, I'm really angry about that. That hurt my feelings when this happened." (laughs) You're like, you're formulating it as you go, and that's the joy of it, and for me, that's what music is. So, I'll sit down not thinking, "Hey, I've been wanting to write a song that has a hard beat," or, "I've been wanting to write a song that's anthemic," or, "I've been wanting to write a song that's..." It's like, how am I feeling right now?

Lex Fridman 1:20:06 And it's joyful? With, is the feeling joyful to you, or is