Lex Fridman PodcastDavid Pakman: Politics of Trump, Biden, Bernie, AOC, Socialism & Wokeism | Lex Fridman Podcast #375
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,082 words- 0:00 – 1:49
Introduction
- DPDavid Pakman
I tweet that, and then I finish the day. And I wake up the next morning and I glance at my phone. I'm seeing all these verified accounts that are, you know, quote-tweeting it and demanding a retraction and whatever. And I go, "Uh-oh, okay, this looks like it's getting, looks like it's getting some attention." Um, I then continue about my day. Around noon, I hear from my dad that he got 100 messages from, "You should have aborted your son," to, "We're gonna find all of you," to whatever else. My dad has no idea what's going on. He's like, "I don't know what this is, but I have 100 DMs," to everything else you can imagine. Um, and I start to get emails about, you know, "We... you know, uh, your Jewish faith," this and that and the other thing. And so at that point, to me, I thought, "This is just going to get worse and worse and worse," and so I deleted the tweet. And I really regret doing that, because over the 48 hours that followed, yes, the attacks escalated, it went through Candace Owens and then at foxnews.com, Newsmax, kind of peaking with, with Donald Trump Jr., and it was horrible.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with David Pakman, a left-wing progressive political commentator and host of The David Pakman Show. I hope to continue to have many conversations on politics with prominent, insightful, and sometimes controversial figures across the political spectrum. David and I have been planning to speak for a long time, and I'm sure we'll speak many more times. This conversation was challenging, eye-opening, and fun. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's David Pakman.
- 1:49 – 11:17
Political ideologies
- LFLex Fridman
Are there interesting differences to you between terms like liberal, Democrat, left wing, leftist, progressive, socialist, communist, Marxist, far left, center left, all of these labels? Is there interesting distinctions between them?
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah, there's two sets of distinctions. One is, if you just want to say, let's define each of these as political terms, they're all different terms. You can be a progressive ideologically, but not be a member of the Democratic Party. Many say the Democratic Party isn't even really very progressive. So these are certainly terms that we could define, uh, in order to have a conversation about the next thing, kind of as a precursor to a conversation. Sometimes the terms are used in order to tag someone with a certain ideology that's not really linked to policy or any particular political question. But they can be used positively or negatively to just kind of say, "Here is the image of this individual that I have in my mind." So, like Marxist is right now very popularly being used by some on the right, um, to attack Democrats. There's very few actual Marxists, certainly not in positions of power in the United States, but even among the general population. Um, so I think it's important to distinguish, are we defining these terms because we want to compare and contrast the ideas that a particular group might bring to the discussion? Or are we using them as insults or to stifle conversation? There are terms that can be used to start a conversation or to stop it.
- LFLex Fridman
And the use of those terms is evolving rapidly month by month. So the term leftist, I think, is a relatively popular term now to use in the negative context to describe, um, what, an outraged left wing commentator?
- DPDavid Pakman
I think what you're kind of grasping onto is that there's probably some set of ideas that would apply to most of those who consider themselves to be on the left.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
The discussion of how that term is mostly being used is not about policy ideas. You're accurately kind of, uh, uh, identifying that. And it does seem like progressive is no longer being used as a smear and leftist is being used as a smear more at this point.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. But sometimes some of these terms are useful. Like can we try to pick the terms that are useful, like liberal and progressive and Democrat? Liberal and progressive, is there an interesting definable distinction between liberal and progressive to you?
- DPDavid Pakman
That's, uh, maybe one of the most interesting ones. 10 years ago, liberal often meant progr- what now we mean by progressive. More recently, the progressive socialist leaning part of the political spectrum has started to use liberal to mean Joe Biden, to mean someone who is not really left enough. So liberal is very interesting because I remember talking with my audience years ago, maybe eight years ago or something like that, where I identified, "I'm going to now use the term progressive more commonly to describe my own beliefs," because liberal has now been made a smear, it's being shifted into something else, and it also means more of like a center left politics.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
So it's changed in some sense by, by f- necessity, by force.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
And also because the, the spectrum has shifted to some degree.
- LFLex Fridman
So the term liberal has evolved, now liberal meaning some kind of, uh, embodiment of the mainstream Democratic Party almost?
- DPDavid Pakman
To some degree. Sometimes I'm called, uh, I'm written off by, you know, within my space, there are all sorts of shades of gray, which I'm sure we can talk about, about where I am versus should be, could be, or I'm wrongly placed. And sometimes an attack on me is, "He's just a lib," meaning I'm not left enough, I'm not progressive, socialist, wherever else you want to go. So yeah, the, the problem with a lot of these terms, and they're used very casually by people who call into my show, is that unless we actually define them each time, they very often mean very different things to different people, and often come with an agenda attached to them. And so I find that they often stifle meaningful conversation rather than encourage it.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you sense that there's a drifting...... of, uh, what is the threshold to be a progressive? Or, is, is there... Should we use progressive synonymously with, uh, democratic socialist?
- DPDavid Pakman
I think we should not use it synonymously with democratic socialist. And this is where there's another linguistic confusion and a political confusion. So, we'll first talk about the linguistic one. Social democracy versus democratic socialism, very similar words in a different order.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
Okay? My... The way I operate is democratic socialism is actually a form of socialism where one would seek to socialize ownership of the means of production, as an example. Social democracy is a very, uh, highly regulated form of capitalism, the likes of which we would see in Northern Europe, Denmark, et cetera. These are very different things. I associate progressivism in 2023 with social democracy, and would consider democratic socialism a form of actual socialism that is different. It is... We're no longer talking about, uh, a capitalist organization of society.
- LFLex Fridman
So, transition from one to the other is a fundamental shift in how s- i- in how society operates then?
- DPDavid Pakman
Absolutely. And when you talk about social democracy, you're talking about socializing a couple more things than we socialize in most modern, uh, capitalist countries. I had this conversation with Patrick Bet-David recently. Social democracy is, okay, we've socialized the military already in the United States. Uh, we've socialized some healthcare in the sense of like the VA, and Medicaid, et cetera. We're talking about socializing a couple more things still in a capitalist country. Democratic socialism would be something beyond that. And, and as someone who is not a democratic socialist myself, I'm, I'm maybe not the best advocate for explaining exactly how that system would function. But it would have some version of socializing ownership of the means of production, businesses, et cetera.
- LFLex Fridman
So, you mentioned you, uh, appeared on the PBD podcast with Patrick Bet-David. Um, the debate was pretty intense. I, I-
- DPDavid Pakman
Was it? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
I, I, I should say I personally enjoyed it. I thought, uh, actually you did well, and I thought Patrick did well, and it was a good conversation.
- DPDavid Pakman
I thought it was.
- LFLex Fridman
There was a little bit of tension.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And I, I thought that Patrick actually... So, I disagreed with the internet. I thought Patrick just took on a kind of devil's advocate, like he wa- he was purposely being stubborn to bring out the best in you. But the internet thought that he's being stubborn, not being open to your ideas. I thought the tension between ideas, um, I think a lot of the tension had to do probably with, uh, Donald Trump and Trump supporters.
- DPDavid Pakman
That certainly could be the case. And people wrote to me af- People wrote to me the full gamut of everything you can imagine, from "This was your best thing you've ever done in public," to, "You got humiliated and your mother should have aborted you." Okay? So every- and everything in between, so-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
... you know, take your pick. But, um, the most interesting feedback I got was from people who asked me, after was incredibly tense and awkward, and because it seemed so combative. And I think for... I'm so used to those types of tensions-
- 11:17 – 26:13
Twitter drama
- DPDavid Pakman
you know, I don't know if, how much you saw about this recent Twitter dustup I was involved in that piqued with Donald Trump Jr. tweeting about me and then that, then declining from there.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, let's, let's talk through it. I didn't see it.
- DPDavid Pakman
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
Just I have to understand, like, uh, the way you study Shakespeare, I have to study your Twitter.
- DPDavid Pakman
Right. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
I have to understand so much, how much of it is sarcasm, how much-
- DPDavid Pakman
It's mostly sarcasm.
- LFLex Fridman
...
- NANarrator
is, is postulate.
- DPDavid Pakman
I, I mean, here's the thing, and I know that there are people who will say, "David, you're dealing with such serious issues. It's really not okay not to take everything you do completely seriously."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
But my view is, it's so incredible that I've, between chance and timing and so different things, fallen into a position where this is what I do professionally. And it's a career and it's financially sustainable and all these different things. I don't want to end up taking myself too seriously, because I recognize the timing and luck and all of these other things, and this could have gone a completely different way. So, my approach to a lot of this is, let's not take ourselves too seriously, and in particular on Twitter, a platform that, you know, the degree to which it should be taken very seriously may- maybe has changed over time. I'm always sort of thinking a little bit tongue in cheek on Twitter.
- LFLex Fridman
So what happened with, uh, Donald Trump Jr.?
- DPDavid Pakman
So-
- LFLex Fridman
Or the full arc of it.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah, the- to make- give you a one-minute arc, and then we can pick-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
... whichever parts we want. After a mass shooting... Now, you might say, "There's, like, two or three a day." You're correct. After the Nashville mass shooting at a Christian school, I tweeted snarkily, tongue in cheek, to point that thoughts and prayers not only aren't particularly useful after a shooting, they also don't prevent shootings, that there's some confusion about how there would be a shooting at a Christian school, given that it is a pla- place where prayer is taking place. I think I- I, you know, jokingly said something like, um, "Were they not praying enough or correctly?"
- LFLex Fridman
In my deep journalistic integrity-
- DPDavid Pakman
You have it.
- LFLex Fridman
... I have your tweet.
- DPDavid Pakman
Beautiful. Beautiful.
- LFLex Fridman
This is- this is the only display of journalistic integrity (laughs) I will show today. Okay. And I have a couple responses.
- DPDavid Pakman
Beautiful.
- LFLex Fridman
And you deleted the tweet since then, which is very-
- DPDavid Pakman
Which I regret.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, interesting.
- DPDavid Pakman
And we can talk about that.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, I would love to 'cause it's such a-
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah.
- 26:13 – 33:13
Biden vs Trump
- LFLex Fridman
so I've, uh, made a call for questions on Reddit for this conversation. (laughs)
- DPDavid Pakman
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
There's a lot of good questions that I'll probably bring up, but one of them was about, uh, Marianne Williamson, um, asking why David thinks she's a garbage candidate, uh, which of course-
- DPDavid Pakman
I've never said. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, but perhaps you have more eloquently criticized her. So, let, let, let's go there-
- DPDavid Pakman
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
... to the 2024 election.
- DPDavid Pakman
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
So Biden, Joe Biden officially announced that he's running again. Donald Trump officially announced that he's running again. And if that's the matchup, who do you think wins?
- DPDavid Pakman
If the election's held today, I think Biden.
- LFLex Fridman
Why?
- DPDavid Pakman
Well, first of all, I believe he won last time. And if I start with the results from 2020 and I think to myself, "What has happened since then that would push or pull voters one way or the other?" I have a hard time making a case that Trump is in a better position today than he was in November of 2020. So, that's kind of my starting point, which is, it's a rematch of an election with a known outcome. What has changed? And I can't make a case for circumstances having changed in Trump's favor. To give a couple of state level examples, Florida seems to be kind of moving more to the Republican side since 2020.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
But Trump won that state already in 2020, so it wouldn't really change the outcome. Arizona was close. I think Arizona has moved to the left since 2020, so I don't see Trump taking that one. Wisconsin, I think the same sort of thing applies. So being very, like, practical, that would be kind of the start of my reasoning.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think Joe Biden is a better candidate now than he was in 2020?
- DPDavid Pakman
I think he's a worse candidate. This is going to sound ageist, but I think he's a worse candidate in that he's even older and there already seems to be an appetite for younger candidates, particularly on the Democratic voting side. So, he's going to be four years older, and in a sense, that could be a liability. However, he also is going to have four years of accomplishments. Now, you might not like the things he's done, in which case that would hurt him, but he has started to accumulate, um, a not insignificant number of accomplishments, some of the big things that are known, Inflation Reduction Act and COVID stimulus, you know, but also less well known things like a, a bunch of little tweaks to healthcare, bunch of little tweaks to student lending. There's been a lot of little things. Um, at the macro level, I don't actually think Joe Biden has that much to do with this, the same way I didn't credit or attack Trump for a lot of the macroeconomic stuff, but inflation has started to come down significantly, the stock market's quite steady, you know, the, these sort of things. I think looking historically, it's a pretty okay environment for Joe Biden, with the exception that he was already the oldest president to be inaugurated in 2021, and he would beat his own record in January of 2025, and I just don't know how voters are gonna see that.
- LFLex Fridman
So in terms of just a public human being, uh, how would you compare Trump and Biden? So if I were to give criticism towards Trump, it would be that he's chaotic, maybe to the point of being disrespectful to a lot of different groups, to a lot of different ideas, to a lot of different nations and leaders and all that kind of stuff. And then the criticism towards Biden would be that he, um, maybe perhaps because of age or any other kind of cognitive capabilities, is not really there mentally as, um, you know, in the way that perhaps you could say like Barack Obama was there, just mentally being able to handle all kinds of aspects of being a public representative of a nation to the world and to the people of that nation. So which, uh, in the competition (laughs) of personality flaws, which do you think is more powerful?
- DPDavid Pakman
You've laid out fair and I believe accurate assessments of elements of both of those men.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
You haven't weighed in on to what degree you value each of those assessments, which is-
- LFLex Fridman
Hm.
- DPDavid Pakman
... where I think the, the kind of meat of this question really is. Um-I don't see, and I know that, you know, Biden's gonna get us into World War III, World War III doe- doesn't seem to be happening. Um, I don't see the Biden deficits you listed, which I th- agree with you on. I don't see them as, um, dangerous or threatening to the standing of the United States in this kind of environment with our Western, traditional Western allies, and geopolitics, et cetera, in the way that the sort of unhinged personality of Trump, combined with his lack of knowledge about most issues, is a threat. So for me, if those two are the candidates, Biden would be my choice. Now, are there people I would rather see on the Democratic side? Yes. If I knew the president would be a Republican, can I think of better options than Trump? Absolutely. You know, I think it's, it's so funny, when in 2012 it was Obama versus Romney-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
... the difference seemed so significant between them.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DPDavid Pakman
Thinking back, I'm sure I would disagree with Mitt Romney about tax rates and his views on LGBT are, I'm sure, I, I know are different than mine. But it seems, without looking at him with rose-colored glasses, so comparatively benign, given the, the four years of Trump. So that's kinda where I come down.
- LFLex Fridman
Even, uh, McCain and-
- DPDavid Pakman
Absolutely.
- LFLex Fridman
... Obama, the, the differences seem quite drastic.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah. McCain was interesting because Palin as his running mate opened the door to the sort of cartoonish stuff that we've started to see on the Republican side. Palin, Trump, Marjorie Taylor Greene. It started going in that direction, which has made the party a bit of a joke, aside from what you believe the tax rate would be, right? You can th- say, "Taxes are too high," but Jewish space lasers, come on, you know? So, uh, but, but I, I agree with you on McCain also.
- 33:13 – 35:54
AOC
- LFLex Fridman
about AOC as a candidate? Do you think she eventually runs?
- DPDavid Pakman
I think that if she doesn't run into some kind of scandal, and I don't mean scandal in the sense of some personal impropriety that, you know. But I mean some kind of major political problem, it seems that she has the staying power to be in American elected politics for a long time. Whether she would even want to be president versus maybe going to the Senate, or being governor, whatever the case may be, I have no idea what her ambitions are in that sense. But certainly, like policy aside, she has this combination of charisma, likability to some, but also something about her personality that angers the people who don't like her in a way that only fuels her sort of, uh, presence, uh, which I think applies to Trump as well.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
Um, that I do think that she has the potential to be, to have significant staying power in American politics.
- LFLex Fridman
Does it-
- DPDavid Pakman
President, I don't know.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think that's the future of, of, uh, political elections and politics in general, is people who are able to skillfully piss off the other side, like AOC and Trump did?
- DPDavid Pakman
I think it's an aspect of it. I think it's also understanding how to communicate policy ideas. Trump, you know, I have things I can praise Trump about if we wanna get to that segment at some point. You let, you let me know when that is. But I-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DPDavid Pakman
... I do think that there are some things Trump is very good at. And this is why it's very hard for me to believe that Ron DeSantis has what it takes to actually fight Trump in a national primary. And, um, one of those things is Trump has a, even though he often says very strange things, that if you transcribe them, you go, "That's... What language is that? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever." In the moment, the way he relates to, um, adversaries on stage, et cetera, is very good in that he is very much aware of how it is going to be seen by the audience.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
And so that's why a lot of times it's more about, doesn't matter that a word salad came out of his mouth, how he immediately responded and related to the person, and... Very good. So I think that knowing how to be good when clips are shared all the time, often out of context, is extraordinarily important. Knowing how to use social media, which every election cycle, that means something different.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
But understanding how to use social media, very important. Those things are absolutely so important. And whether you're able to do a deep dive on the deficit, certainly useful, but I would say it's a bad thing, it's becoming less important in terms of figuring out who we want to represent us.
- 35:54 – 44:02
Bernie Sanders
- DPDavid Pakman
- LFLex Fridman
So just lingering on the AOC, and then maybe let's throw in Bernie Sanders on that.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Huh, so where do you place yourself, and how do you do the layout of the land of Bernie Sanders, AOC, Joe Biden, and, uh, David Pakman?
- DPDavid Pakman
My instinct is, and the th- the th- I'm going to answer it, the thing that makes this tough is Bernie says, "I'm a..." He's a democratic socialist.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
He ran as a social democrat. He didn't run on anything that was really socialism.
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- DPDavid Pakman
So I'm going by their public-facing platforms.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, I've been listening to him for many, many years and, uh, all, all the way back to the Thom Hartmann Show, and I think using the terms as you've been using them-
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... he has, I don't think, ever been a democratic socialist. I haven't heard him speak about socialism. I, I think he... I've heard, uh, him speak about social programs and the value of social programs-
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... throughout the history...... of the United States and their... And how they've been beneficial.
- DPDavid Pakman
My understanding is very similar to yours, although there may be stuff from the '70s where he really was talking about We all did some- ... bona fide soc-
- LFLex Fridman
... shit in the '70s, right?
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah, yeah. You and I even, who weren't around-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. (laughs)
- DPDavid Pakman
... we were doing stuff in the '70s.
- LFLex Fridman
I feel like, I feel like w- we did, yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
My sense would be, you know, Biden is like center left, and then I'm to the left of that, but maybe just inside of where AOC and Bernie are, or very, very similar to Bernie. I mean, I, I identify with a lot of Bernie's ideas. Maybe their implementation, I'm more flexible on. I'll give you one example, Medicare for All, one way of trying to get healthcare to everybody, which Bernie's very big on, is you take the current Medicare program, you just eliminate the age limit, make it available to everybody, pay for it through taxation. Interesting. However, I'm open to other models if they get everybody healthcare that is good quality and affordable. Singapore has an interesting model, Germany has an interesting model. I am, I am more agnostic about how we do it than just saying, "Let's expand Medicare." Whether that puts me to the right of, of Bernie, I don't, I don't know.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
But I'm not like exactly right there on, it has to be Medicare for All.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, that's more of a... That's more just flexibility versus dogmatism. So I don't know if that puts you to the left or to the right.
- DPDavid Pakman
I don't either.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think about the, we could term manipulation or the corruption in the DNC that perhaps tipped the scales against Bernie in the election? Do you think there was such a thing-
- DPDavid Pakman
In 2016 or 2020?
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DPDavid Pakman
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, both I would say, uh, in different... The, the dynamics there were different with Hillary Clinton and, um, the c- the pressure from Hillary Clinton as a candidate and so on. Yeah. What, what... I mean, w- was there... Why didn't Bernie win? I guess is one, one way to ask.
- 44:02 – 1:09:52
Donald Trump: Pros and cons
- DPDavid Pakman
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, let's go to the, uh, something you alluded to, which is the pros and cons of a particular candidate. Well, what do you, as a critic of Trump, what do you are, um, the pros, the strengths of, uh, Donald Trump, and what do you are his biggest weaknesses?
- DPDavid Pakman
The strengths of Trump... Let's see how I can frame them in a way that is both accurate and- and, uh, accurately assesses my- my feeling about it. Listen-
- LFLex Fridman
And can be taken out of context most mas- masterfully through the clipping process.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yes. Trump's strengths are mostly superficial and in terms of presentation. Trump was able to... I- I call it a grift, some on the right say he's just so good at relating to different types of people. Trump, as a rich guy from New York City, was able to convince people that he spent most of his life trying to be kept isolated from, that he had their best interests in mind, that he knew why they weren't doing well in the 2016 economy, and that he had solutions that he was going to bring forward. The truth is, he never really liked those people, and as soon as they weren't useful to him for a brief period of time, he... You- you know, that- that love affair with his followers stopped, and then now it's back that he needs them again. He didn't really understand the causes of the problems that those folks were experiencing, and his solutions were laughable, right? Like Jared was going to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in year one, he was gonna replace Obamacare in 2017, you know, things that were never going anywhere, anywhere. Um, but what he did really well was, he put up a united front of "I know what is ailing you, I know how to fix it, and I know how to fix it," I guess because he's a businessman and he's been above the fray of politics for so long, knowing how to use political donations to his advantage, he called that smart, et cetera. I think that's his greatest strength.
- LFLex Fridman
Why do you say that the- the- the, uh, the Jared plan for Israel and Palestine, and the plan for healthcare to improve Obamacare, why- why do you say that's laughable?
- DPDavid Pakman
Well, only someone... I would include the North Korea plan as well, which I'm glad to talk about. Only someone who doesn't know anything about the size and scope of these issues could so arrogantly say that they could solve them in that way and on that timeframe. I'm all for optimism and- and bringing a new face to things, absolutely, w- without a doubt, but, you know, a wall with Mexico that Mexico will pay for at the end of my first term. I- I know there are people who believed it because they would call into my show and say, "I'm voting for Trump because of it." But it's hard to believe that anybody serious would fall for that unless you were deliberately wanting to just believe whatever w- was being fed to you, or you just hadn't ever thought about these issues before. The healthcare plan, you know, in 2017 they proposed one, would have led to 24 million or so people ending up without healthcare. Didn't go anywhere because it was so terrible. And then in August of 2020, Trump said, "In- in two weeks, I'm gonna finally have my healthcare proposal." It's 2023, we- we still never got it. You know, with all of these things, when you think them through, it was just sort of arrogance. And I get the perspective of, "I want optimism," and I liked that optimism. It worked. I mean, fair, a lot of people saw it and liked it. As someone who followed a lot of thos- those issues closely, they seemed, of course, like impossible promises.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, it's a double-edged sword. So to push back a little bit, if you look at the things I have, um, a little bit more knowledge about, which is the space of artificial intelligence, there's a company called DeepMind and there's a company called OpenAI that were laughed at for a long time when they were talking about that they were going to solve intelligence. And now they've made, um, especially DeepMind, and now most recently OpenAI with GPT, they've made progress that most of the AI community would not have imagined they'd be able to make. Everything from AlphaGo beating the world cha- uh, world Go champion, just all the different steps and progress they can get into were surprise to everybody, and they are legitimately, uh, fearlessly pursuing, uh, the task of solving intelligence. The other aspect, he gets a lot of criticism now, but another example is Elon Musk. Uh, and I can say a lot of things, like SpaceX, so commercial space flight. He was laughed at for a long time that that's possible. Uh, same thing with Autopilot in Tesla, autonomous vehicles. His approach was harshly criticized by all the experts, and, uh, still criticized, to this day, deeply criticized. And I as a person that I believe objectively can look at the progress of Autopilot as a semi-autonomous vehicle system, has been incredibly surprising. So the reason I mention that is sometimes it feels like you need the guy or the gal who s- who-... makes those, uh, preposterous, ambitious statements like, "We're going to solve healthcare this year."
- DPDavid Pakman
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Like... And then, and then there's experts like yourself that are looking, thinking, "Have you read anything about the history of the..." Israel-Palestine is a good, is a g- ex- example of that. Do you know there's a history there? (laughs) Do you realize how complicated, how many people have tried, how many people have failed, how many millions of people hate each other in this, in this little, uh, place, in this, in this land? The, like... Sometimes the expertise can really weigh you down. So sort of to push back, sometimes you have to have the, almost be naive and stupid and just rush in with an optimism in order to actually make some progress.
- DPDavid Pakman
I agree with you 100%. I think it's interesting that all of the examples you gave of, of successes are from the technology space.
- LFLex Fridman
Not politics, yes. (laughs)
- DPDavid Pakman
W- not from politics, which, uh, I mean, listen.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
I would love to be able to make headway on some of these issues more quickly, without a doubt. I do think at some point though, when it comes down to voting and saying, "One of these people is going to be ostensibly in charge for four years, through all of the departments and secretaries and choices that they make," we do want to apply some level of realism, with the, with the understanding that your examples are from the tech space. And they're good examples. There's, there's no question about it. One thi- uh, thing I'll add to this. I recently read Bradley Hope's new book about North Korea. Um, and it's really about an activist, um, who... It doesn't even really matter. But the, in the background of the book, he, it's written, much of what is written about happens during the Trump era, and when Trump did the first and then the second, um, I guess you'd call them summits with Kim Jong Un. And it actually did seem like, to some degree, Trump's, "We're gonna ha- handle this like I do a business deal," approach to Kim Jong Un, in some sense, it actually was logical because of Kim Jong Un and the way that it was so ego-driven and they both, as sort of authoritarian strongmen types to different degrees, wanted that. There was actually a kernel where I actually thought as I read it, Trump's initial idea wasn't crazy. The problem was, he knew nothing about the backstory of the relationship, he fell for all sorts of lies from Kim Jong Un, and he made offers that didn't make any sense to me. It fell apart. Fine. But that's an example where I think T- Trump's personality was not actually, at its base, the, the problem when it came to North Korea.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, there's other things of this nature that could go in, or some people argue goes into the strengths and pros of Donald Trump. For China, for example, tariffs on China. Can you make the case that there's some positive outcomes of the way Donald Trump acted with China?
- DPDavid Pakman
It's really tough. And I'll give you a couple reasons why.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, then also cons.
- DPDavid Pakman
I'll give you a... It, it's tough to make... So, the China thing is really... So, just, um, very recently to when we're recording this, Trump was on Fox News interviewed by a guy named Mark Levin, and Trump proposed a new, I call it a conspiracy theory, maybe it will strike you as something different, about China, COVID, and tariffs. And Trump's suggestion was that the tariffs cost China so much money, China sent the US so much money in tariffs, that they released COVID as punishment. Now, there's a couple problems with that. One, American companies pay the tariffs. Trump still doesn't seem to know this. Trump seems to believe that when he puts a tariff on Chinese imports, someone in China is cutting a check to the United States. American companies buy the stuff from China, and then American companies cut a check to the United States for the tariff. Trump doesn't seem to get that.
- LFLex Fridman
But it still has a sting to the Chinese economy.
- DPDavid Pakman
You can make the argument that if there is a suitable alternative, domestically or from a different country, that it will reduce imports, buh, buh, buh. But it didn't happen, and we actually have reports now that the tariffs on China cost about a quarter million American jobs. The other problem with that idea is China created and released a virus in order to hurt you, but as of today, 5.7 of the 6.8 million deaths were in other countries. It's a very indirect way. You're mostly killing people in other countries to hurt Trump. Maybe there was a... This is the sort of thing where, when I think about how Trump dealt with China, it's very scary, because given another four years, who, who knows what he might do if he still doesn't understand how tariffs work.
- LFLex Fridman
So geopolitics operates in complicated ways with carrots and sticks, and Henry Kissinger has written quite, uh, a lot about this. And in some sense, the positive aspect here, that, uh, Donald Trump is willing to take big risks in, uh, in the game of geopolitics with this, uh, giant superpower that is China, and a lot of others are too afraid, too afraid to call them out, to, to come to the table and criticize.
- DPDavid Pakman
I certainly think that's an argument that can be made. My question would be, what tangible positive outcomes did it lead to? And it's tough to identify any. But I think it's a great thing. I mean, listen. One of the things you're kind of getting at, maybe indirectly, is that there's been this sense that politics has been done very similarly for a long time, and even between Democrats and Republicans, still, even with some policy differences, there's still the kind of feeling that it's disconnected folks in DC mostly dealing with issues that don't directly affect... Look, I get that. I'm with you on that. I think the question as to whether Trump's bluster-... was positive rather than extraordinarily humiliating in many ways. I just come down on, it was an absolute and total humiliation. But I understand that you can recognize Trump doesn't know a lot of stuff, but his attitude was, uh, refreshing in some way. That's a reasonable position for someone to take. I disagree with it, but I understand it.
- LFLex Fridman
But is trying and failing better than not trying?
- DPDavid Pakman
This goes well beyond politics. You know, Wayne Gretzky has weighed in about this, Michael Jordan has weighed in about... I mean, the- this is, uh, yeah. Is it- is it better to have tried and failed than never? Is it better to have loved and lost than never to have loved? I don't know. I mean, listen, we lived through four years of Trump. We know what that four-year term was like, and it's very hard for me to say that the things he tried were- were overwhelmingly reasonable. But I get the point you're trying to make and I appreciate it. It- and- and it's, if we don't do any of it, then where do we end up? Sure. We know where we ended up with- with Trump and it was pretty embarrassing.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, okay, let's linger, uh, on some more strengths. We didn't start any new wars.
- DPDavid Pakman
We didn't star-
- LFLex Fridman
Is- is there something to that?
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah, that's- it's- it's interesting. There's a few different approaches, uh, to dealing with that. Um, first, it's really important to remember that the counterpoint to that, from the folks who like to say that, was that Hillary Clinton was gonna start three wars, sometimes they say four wars, sometimes they say five wars. Okay. Um, the geopolitical situation during the four years that Trump was in office, I don't know that they obviously lent themselves to wars that Trump just barely was able to keep us out of. I think the Russia thing is interesting because now it's very popular to go back and say, "You know, the reason Putin didn't do the Ukraine thing when Trump r-" Right? And to g- somehow give Trump credit for that. There's a counterpoint to it, which is Putin under Trump, particularly if Trump got four more years, would've been able to maybe consolidate power in other ways because of his relationship with Trump. I'm not coming down on one side or the other. It's not my area of expertise. But it's not the open-shut slam dunk that, you know, Trump likes to say it as, "Putin didn't invade because he knew I would crush him and..." Okay. So, it's not obvious to me that there were imminently wars that would've started during that time. That being said, um, you know, for all the criticism of Obama during Crimea, Trump seemed to just kind of forget about that after all the criticism and say, "I'm not actually gonna do anything about that." And so there's- there are foreign policy, uh, criticisms that- that could be made, but it is true, no new wars were started under Trump. And I- I like that. I don't like wars.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think about his handling of COVID? Can you say... What are the pros and cons of his handling of COVID?
- 1:09:52 – 1:16:14
Joe Biden: Pros and cons
- DPDavid Pakman
- LFLex Fridman
Let me ask you about Joe Biden. What are the strengths and weaknesses of Joe Biden?
- DPDavid Pakman
Weaknesses, I think are some of the things you've identified. He is not seen as, um, high energy. He is, um, not the same Joe Biden that debated Paul Ryan in 2012 and ran circles around him in just an incredible debate performance. Uh, he is not inspiring in the way that someone like a Barack Obama was to people coming up and starting to get interested in politics. I think a lot of those, uh, are fair criticisms. I think on policy, he's not interested in a lot of the things that younger voters are interested in. I mentioned cannabis reform, um, I mentioned student loans. So- so I think that that's a deficit for Biden. I think the upside to Biden is when it comes to foreign policy, diplomacy, high level negotiations, knowing how to engage with allies in a productive way, it's tough to find someone w- with more experience than Biden. I know that there are counterpoints to what I'm saying, and those include, "That was the old Biden, the new Biden doesn't have it." That includes, "That's just a sign of rot because he's been around for so long. Nobody should be around that long in politics." F- perfectly reasonable criticisms to talk about, but I do see that as one of his strengths, and he also is good at knowing when he can work with Republicans and when he can't, and not wasting more time than is sort of expected for posturing reasons. And I think that that's a good thing.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think he's actually there? So in a day to day operation of government, given his cognitive capabilities, do you think he is, um, uh, an active and practicing executive?
- DPDavid Pakman
I don't know that I can say that it's because of what may be going on cognitively, but my sense from the people I talk to is that he's very much involved in the highest level geopolitical and big domestic economic stuff. But that a lot of the smaller issues that presidents might or might not be in- in, sort of plugged into, that he's not plugged into the- the details of a lot of the- the lower level stuff.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, you could probably apply the same exact criticism, e- even more so towards the Donald Trump administration, in terms of being a practicing, active, uh, executive, who's paying attention. Like for example, like, V- Vladimir Putin is somebody, um, who loves the- the role of the executive, has a huge amount of meetings, is constantly tracking information about agriculture and all the different subsystems of government. Stalin, funny enough, was also extremely good at this. So certain people just love the job of being an executive, and I'm- I'm not sure if Donald Trump did, um, and I'm not sure if, uh, Joe Biden in his current state has the cognitive capability to.
- DPDavid Pakman
It's a, it's a good question. Kim Jong-un's another one, by the way.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
You know, there's videos of him, uh, examining a pottery, you know, a- a- a factory where they make plates and making very specific comments about how the plates should be made. I think that, in that case, there's a lot of propaganda value to it. With Trump, uh, I think you're probably right. You know, he did get involved in the minutia of things. I mean, once he pulled out a weather map and with a Sharpie drew a different hurricane path that was more politically convenient to him. That's pretty micro, you know, saying, "The weather channel's wrong."
- LFLex Fridman
I see, I see what you did there.
- DPDavid Pakman
This is... Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
I see what you did there.
- DPDavid Pakman
So that's a micro. He went to Puerto Rico and he gave out paper towels after a hurricane. Now, he was shooting them like free throws, which didn't look very good. So he will get involved in the micro when it's advantageous, you know what I mean?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
But I do agree with you that he wants to just kind of make it so. "Build the wall. I don't know, just build it, figure it out, get it done."
- LFLex Fridman
Quick pause, bathroom break?
- DPDavid Pakman
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah (laughs) .
- DPDavid Pakman
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
You're hilarious. And just for the sake of completeness, I should mention the subreddit What Biden Has Done. Uh, there's also What Trump Has Done, but it's not as active, and it has, like, this master list of all the accomplishments. It's... Um, I recommend people look at it 'cause there's, um... It's kind of rigorous and interesting with links, a list of all the things he's done.
- DPDavid Pakman
Hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Just to list some of them, uh, restored daily press briefings, uh, canceled the Keystone Pipeline, reversed Trump's Muslim ban, required masks on federal property, rejoins the Paris Climate Agreement, extends student loan payment freeze, extend eviction freeze, historic stimulus bill as you mentioned, ends funding for border wall, and so on and so forth. DACA, uh, border strengthening of DACA, rejoins the World Health Organization. And the timing of this, of course, is important. Um... Yeah. Several historic stimulus bills, which, of course, you could criticize or support. Uh, raised the minimum wage for federal contractors and federal employees for $15. Um, there's a lot. There's a lot. It makes you realize, um, with both Trump and Biden that there's a bunch of small details that matter.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, that matter in people's lives, like actual little policies. Uh, Trump did a lot of stuff, as far as I heard, for the military. Like, not big stuff, but small stuff.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah. I'd be curious what you're thinking of. I mean, I know one of the big things under Trump was, "We're gonna get trans people out of the military." Uh...
- LFLex Fridman
Oh.
- DPDavid Pakman
Uh... Which-
- LFLex Fridman
That's not what I was referring to.
- DPDavid Pakman
You weren't referring to that.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- 1:16:14 – 1:32:35
Hate for politicians
- DPDavid Pakman
just a story?
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think it's possible to have a good conversation with each of them, Donald Trump and Joe Biden, in a pod- in a podcast context or in a debate context?
- DPDavid Pakman
Absolutely. Yeah. You're saying-
- LFLex Fridman
Both.
- DPDavid Pakman
... like could I, with either of them?
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- DPDavid Pakman
Oh, 100%. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Joe Biden too?
- DPDavid Pakman
Sure. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, can you dig into that a little more?
- DPDavid Pakman
Well, I mean, I don't know what... I think there's maybe something implicit in your, in your question, but...
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, that it's deeper about the nature of politics and politicians, yes.
- DPDavid Pakman
I think with either of them, I mean, the political differences wouldn't be an impediment to having a good conversation-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
... with either of them. Um, I think one of the things that's really tough in my experience when talking to elected officials is they could be super interesting about 100 different topics, but handlers decide or try to get you to talk about something you don't really care about and something really narrow which doesn't bring out your best nor their best.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DPDavid Pakman
And that's a frustration. But I think that given an unstructured three-hour conversation, I think it would be interesting to talk to both. I mean, listen, with, with Biden, aside from his view on cannabis or whatever, his background and the incredible, unimaginable family tragedy that he had and his first wife and, you know, multiple kids dying and... I mean, it, it's just incredible, you know. And, and with Trump, I think also you could have an interesting conversation.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah those, they're human beings with a life story.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
They're... That, uh... And they're some of the most successful humans who have ever lived to have, uh, rose to this highest office in interesting, complex ways.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, o- one of the things I'm troubled by, maybe you can speak to, is why we're so negative towards presidential candidates and presidents. Why... It's just they go through this shit storm no matter who they are.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
They're, like, hated. Like, all the conspiracy theories. And just, just the dynamics of how we talk about them is vicious. If you, if you just look at replies to even Barack Obama on Twitter, it's like, "What is going on here?" Why? Why? Like, 'cause we look at other leaders in other spaces and we're generally positive about it.
- DPDavid Pakman
Yeah. There's a couple different things. There's this dynamic which is really unfortunate which is, you ask people, "Do you approve of the job a particular president is doing?" And very often, if at any point while they were in office they did something you don't like, people will say, "I don't approve." And so by its nature, what that means is just, like, the longer you're in office, the lower your approval rating's going to be. And very often that's the way it works. I mean, there's major events like 9/11 spiked George W. Bush's approval to an incredible level, then it came back down with the Iraq War. But there's this unfortunate thing that when, when people are just asked, "You think Biden's doing a good job?" If four months ago Biden did something on healthcare that somebody didn't like, even if you like most of it, a lot of people from that point forward will say, "I don't approve." They might still vote for him because they like him better than the alternative or whatever. It's, it's just the dynamic of politics and I agree, it's, it's very unpleasant.
- LFLex Fridman
Does it have to be that way, do you think?
- DPDavid Pakman
I don't think it has to be that way, but to unwind it, so many things would have to change. I think our election system is part of why politics is the way it is, where you have two choices and it's first past the post, and we have this electoral college so that depending on which state you vote in, the, the kind of meaning and significance of your vote is different. If you vote in Montana, it's the Republican candidate's going to win and that changes the dy- the dynamics. I think that's part of it. Um, I think that...... at a personal level, I've experienced this in my life a lot. We've become, and by we, I mean people in the United States to some degree who talk about this stuff, we've become uncomfortable when there is disagreement, and it bleeds over into now we can't have a normal interpersonal relationship anymore. I'm from Argentina, and in Argentina, it's really common, even in my family, there are incredibly heated political debates-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DPDavid Pakman
... at the start, the middle, the end of some kind of gathering. But then everybody just goes back to like, "Okay, we disagree on some things, but that's okay."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 3:31:02
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